I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 last night

[Cofey]

Ok, I know this is going to spark a lot of anger with all you Michael Moore haters, so right from the start I'm going to say this: I'm not going to fight about this with anyone. If you don't like the guy, I can't change your mind. I DO like him, and you can't change my mind. So don't expect me to retaliate to any comments you make, I feel it would be a waste of my time. And there may be minor spoilers for anyone who wants to see this movie, just a heads up.

I LOVED this movie. I LOVE Michael Moore. I don't understand how republicans and Bush supporters can say Bush has balls for invading Iraq, but Michael Moore is just an asshole. If you ask me, Michael Moore has more balls than Bush. It's evident when you watch this movie. At the end of the film he approached congressmen and asked them to enlist their children into the military to fight in Iraq. You might think that's cruel or whatever, but I think it's ballsy, and it's about time somebody did something like this. Sure, they don't mind sending other people's children over there, but when it comes time for their own to sign up, then they think twice. Michael Moore is an asshole? Read it that way if you will, I think he's a great American.

I know what you're all going to say next: he's full of shit, none of the things he says are true. Well, I've got news for you, the stuff he says IS true. Visit his website, I don't know the url but somebody posted it a little while back, if anyone can find it post it here please. Read what he says there. All of you who said the facts in Bowling for Columbine were made up, read his site. He gives proof there that all of what he said is true, including links to other official websites where you can read up about everything he's said. And he makes a good point at the end too: if it's all bullshit, how come nobody's sued him? Surely if it is made up that's slander, or some form of lawbreaking? And what movie company would dare to make a movie like that if they weren't absolutely sure it was all 100% true? Deny it all you want, but I believe every word he says.

Now if you're willing to accept the truth, you'll still say: he only gives one side of the story and he skews the facts. Well first of all, you're right, he only gives one side. So why don't you give me the other? If so many people are so mad at this guy, why don't you give me the other side? I'll listen. And as far as skewing the truth, well I don't personally think he does, but it is possible in some cases. But a lot of the facts he gives are irrefutable. They just can't be denied. He has documented proof for all who are willing to listen. For example, in Bowling for Columbine, where he shows how many gun deaths there were in other countries around the world, and then the US. You can't deny that, it's a fact. If you don't believe it, go visit his website like I said earlier, there's proof there.

I think people should stop being so ignorant and accept at least some of the things he says. He's not full of shit. He's doing this because our country is fucked right now, and with four more years of Bush, I dread to think how much more fucked we'll be. And all of you who don't like Michael Moore, go see his movie anyway, who knows, you may just change your mind about some things. Don't just flat out reject everything he says right off the bat without even seeing it.

This is what I think, this is how I feel. If you disagree, fine, this is America and that's your right. This was not meant to spark a fight. And if what I wrote is all over the place as I suspect it is, I'm sorry, I'm not too great at stuff like this. But my whole point is, I think Michael Moore is a great American and a great person, and I'm glad to see somebody standing up for what he believes in like this. Even if he doesn't change the minds of any Bush supporters, I don't care, he's taken away any doubt I had about voting against him this year, and I applaud his work.

[C.J.]

Thanks for the comments, I was planning to see it tonight anyway.

[Cofey]

^Enjoy every minute of it, I know I did.

[StarFoxEternity]

I saw this last Friday. It is such a good documentary. Bush needs to go find something else to do, because he's diong no good to the States. I liked Bowling for Columbine better though because it made me think a lot more.
And as Gollum made very clear already, these are just our opinions.

Vaya con dios...:evillaugh

[Kliq]

Michael Moore's new controversial documentary Fahrenheit 9/11 topped the box office with an impressive $21.8 million from just 868 screens.

That is impressive. I'll probably watch Spiderman 2 first, and then this.

[Viper]

Gollum, I'm sure you've been waiting for me to enter this thread so here I am. A few brieef statements and I'll let you reply, if you wish.


The draft. There is going to be one. I've already explained several times why (use the search feature to find a few). On top of that, that is congress, not Bush.

Why do people with little knowledge of Americas political structure always blame the President? Checks and balances people. If the President makes a stupid idea.....Congrss can smack it down. Yet, they seem to approve it. Now why isn't Moore yacking away at his local representative? Or even addressing the 535 member body of Congress?

Oh the great gun debate. We have the lowest crime rate in decades. Hey, lets do as Moore does, if something happens, its Bushs doing right, so therefore all this decline in violent crime must be because of Bush, round of applause. Guns used in violent crime, high percentage came from illegally obtained weapons. If they ban guns, they'll all come from illegally obtained weapons and they will still be just as easy to get if not easier. Lets not forget that owning a gun is a constitutional right, you know that whole 2nd amendment ting in the Bill of Rights? I'm sure Moore has heard of it.

Asking a congressman to send their child into a draft is not ballsy, going after the most dangerous man in the world knowing full well the world will probably hate you for it is ballsy.


he cannot be slapped with lawsuits because it is a movie (still considered a work of fiction) and he hides behind that fact...big time.


Gollum, what have you learned? Honestly? To just take his opinion because it sounds right and he tells it good? Do you know how our political system works, I mean in detail? Why be angry at just the guy who came up with the idea instead of all the guys who put it into law or enforced that idea?

Moore is making money off slamming Bush. If he really wanted change, he work with his representative to get things done, he'd finance a candidates presidential bid. There is so much he can do to enact change but he is not doing any of it......why? If he is so passionate about America, why does he attack the president instead of working to make change?

[IEatFriedPikmin]

people who are in iraq werent enlisted against their will. there is a difference between forcing your child to go to iraq, and enlisting on your own.

[David]

Oh the great gun debate. We have the lowest crime rate in decades. Hey, lets do as Moore does, if something happens, its Bushs doing right, so therefore all this decline in violent crime must be because of Bush, round of applause. Guns used in violent crime, high percentage came from illegally obtained weapons. If they ban guns, they'll all come from illegally obtained weapons and they will still be just as easy to get if not easier. Lets not forget that owning a gun is a constitutional right, you know that whole 2nd amendment ting in the Bill of Rights? I'm sure Moore has heard of it.

Asking a congressman to send their child into a draft is not ballsy, going after the most dangerous man in the world knowing full well the world will probably hate you for it is ballsy.

Jimmy, you make some good points like always but there's still a few problems I found with your statement. First off, with a murder rate as high as it is in the US, you can't expect it to do anything but decrease. It's almost 100x what it is in Canada, and don't tell me that's because of the population difference. The US has at max 15x the population that Canada has. You could try to spout something about how Canada has no guns, that's why we commit less crimes. But then, you'd be wrong again. Canada has more guns/capita than the US. Of course, that's not Bush's fault that you guys have more murders by shootings than almost anywhere else, but it's not like he's helping it a great deal by enforcing any stricter gun laws. Sure, stricter guns laws won't solve the problem, but it would cut down on the murder rate.

Secondly, you quote about going after the most dangerous man in the world was supposed to be pertaining to George W. Bush Jr. invading Iraq to get rid of Saddam Hussein, but I cannot stop thinking about it if it's Michael Moore and Bush as the two subjects. Moore takes cheap shots at Bush and skews his facts like any other political figure does, but he still openly stood up to Bush while not many others would/did. In my opinion, going after the most dangerous man in the world(Bush, in my opinion; which is just my opinion) takes more balls than crushing an evil dictator with the most powerful army in the world...

[Viper]

Repercussions. Knowledge of them denotes how ballsy one is. What repercussions would Moore have for bashing Bush? None, in fact, he has gained fame for it. Bush did what the world would hate him for and he knew it. It could cost him a 2nd term in the White House and he knew it....that's ballsy.


David, you know I check my numbers before using them so I wouldn't even bring up Canadas' murder rate per population in contrast to its gun onwership.

The problems are the illegally obtained weapons and the American sub culture that glorifies its use. Go to any of Canadas poor inner city neighborhoods and you will see the same ratio as America.

A crackdown on their illegal importation and distribution is already underway and has been for a long time. Why does Moore still continue to bash Bush when that is something that Congress addresses? They draft bills too (or lack thereof).

[Hisham]

Repercussions. Knowledge of them denotes how ballsy one is. What repercussions would Moore have for bashing Bush? None, in fact, he has gained fame for it. Bush did what the world would hate him for and he knew it. It could cost him a 2nd term in the White House and he knew it....that's ballsy.


David, you know I check my numbers before using them so I wouldn't even bring up Canadas' murder rate per population in contrast to its gun onwership.

The problems are the illegally obtained weapons and the American sub culture that glorifies its use. Go to any of Canadas poor inner city neighborhoods and you will see the same ratio as America.

A crackdown on their illegal importation and distribution is already underway and has been for a long time. Why does Moore still continue to bash Bush when that is something that Congress addresses? They draft bills too (or lack thereof).

But canada has no "Hood."

I lived in a place called Cornwall, which was probably the closest thing that canada has to a hood. And let me tell you, when I lived it brooklyn, it was MUCH worst. The crime rate in Brooklyn was a lot more and I saw more violence there.

[Viper]

Shin, the crime rate in Brooklyn is high compared the rest of America too.

[Hisham]

Well, ain't that fine and dandy...


*realizes he has no argument*
*runs away*

[disrupter006]

This should be moved into general discussion because very little of it is tieing into the movie now...

[Resident Darkness]

I was watching MTv today because I was too lazy to look for the remote. On the MTv news they put 3 people in Farenheit 9/11 to see what they thought about it. These people said the dumbest things about the movie.

"I think people should see this movie that way they have a more broader understanding of what the president is doing, I mean, he plays golf all the time, instead of helping our troops in Iraq or going after Bin Laden." It's called a vacation you moron, and just because he's the president doesn't mean he doesn't get them. I haven't seen the movie, but I'm betting since Michael Moore made it, that it was edited to make it look like President Bush went golfing all the time.

I know I only covered the golf topic, but these people are so stupid to be influenced by something Michael Moore made.

[Sendok]

Since Moore is all about "the little guy" and all anti establishment -from what I know...that means me watching a pirated version, and showing it to all my friends is just peachy with him.

as much as i do not agree w/Moore, im always up for a laugh.

[alter_ego]

^i honestly think he wouldnt care how ppl watched it, as long as they did.

i hope it gets a jap release.d they showed it on the news so maybe it will cme out here..... *cross fingers*

[David]

According to the Washington Post, from the time Bush was inaugurated to Sept. 11/01, he was on vacation 42% of the time...

Of course, that number would have dropped significantly since Sept. 11th...or, at least it had better well had.

[Mach]

I was watching MTv today because I was too lazy to look for the remote. On the MTv news they put 3 people in Farenheit 9/11 to see what they thought about it. These people said the dumbest things about the movie.

"I think people should see this movie that way they have a more broader understanding of what the president is doing, I mean, he plays golf all the time, instead of helping our troops in Iraq or going after Bin Laden." It's called a vacation you moron, and just because he's the president doesn't mean he doesn't get them. I haven't seen the movie, but I'm betting since Michael Moore made it, that it was edited to make it look like President Bush went golfing all the time.

I know I only covered the golf topic, but these people are so stupid to be influenced by something Michael Moore made.


Don't listen to MTV whenever it opens it's mouth. It's full of biased, extreme-liberal, and corrupt propaganda messages for the teens.
Examples of some of the stuff they hammer into kids' minds: sex, drugs, rebellion, disrespect, rape, violence, peer pressure, disobedience, need for perfect image, gays are supreme, Christians are boring/stupid, and rinse and repeat.

[Cofey]

Repercussions. Knowledge of them denotes how ballsy one is. What repercussions would Moore have for bashing Bush? None, in fact, he has gained fame for it. Bush did what the world would hate him for and he knew it. It could cost him a 2nd term in the White House and he knew it....that's ballsy.
I don't consider that ballsy, I consider it stupidity, since there was a bigger threat out there that wasn't being dealt with properly and since Sadaam had nothing to do with September 11th. Maybe that's just me though.

[Virtual]

i really want to see this movie.

[shadowrunner]

I don't consider that ballsy, I consider it stupidity, since there was a bigger threat out there that wasn't being dealt with properly and since Sadaam had nothing to do with September 11th. Maybe that's just me though.

dont worry, i think like you think.

rock on! this morning`s news said this movie is getting a japan release! rock on.... means i dont have to wait till i get back to oz in december to watch it. but it isnt coming here till august. man i cant wait.........

[Viper]

I don't consider that ballsy, I consider it stupidity, since there was a bigger threat out there that wasn't being dealt with properly and since Sadaam had nothing to do with September 11th. Maybe that's just me though.
Why are you so stuck on this Saddam 9/11 theory?

We ousted Saddam for other reasons, not 9/11. See, this is the Moore BS I'm talking about. Moore says that Bush went after Saddam as though Saddam masterminded 9/11 and you believe Moore.


*smh*

Learn to find your own facts and answers. You are allowing a politically and financially driven individual to make up your mind for you. Why can't you take my word for it? Because I don't have the budget to make a movie of it?

[shadowrunner]

^because we like pissing you off ^_^

but, c`mon. fair enough, root out an evil dictator and get some oil in the process, fair enough, no prob. i have no prob with that but, wouldn`t it be logical to finish one war [afganistan] before starting another one?

and even if they did go after saddam for different reasons, bush did use 9/11 to help convince the country saddam was evil. he was using the fear and stuff present in all the americans and in his speeches about saddam just subtely threw in words like `terror` which kinda like sends a subliminal-ish messgae kinda thing.

I dont know why im bothering with this, viper is just gonna out word me anyway :(

[Matrik]

Alot of people could make a movie ten times better than this shit they just ar either too lazy or poor.

[Viper]

"Out word" you....thanks for the compliment.



Saddam was a threat and he is a terrorist so he didn't lie about that. He would give $17,000.00 to Iraqi families in exchange for one of their teenage boys to be used a suicide bomber. He had rape rooms where they would take all the women in the family, remember they lived in large families unlike America, and would rape them in front of the men. He had weapans given to him by us in the 80's that he could not account for. And there is still some ties to Al Queda and plenty of other terror networks. The guy had to go before something major happened. 9/11 proved to Saddam that we could be hit from afar and we could not take the risk of another 9/11.

[The Dude]

I love how people blame Bush for things such as record job losses and a poor economy, its called 9/11 if you forgot. That MAJORLY fucked up things. I'm surprized how many people forget this.

I'll put my post count on Bush winning this novermber (even tho Im only at 3k..)

[shadowrunner]

^i agree.

he`s rigged it once, he could do it again easy enough

[dncardman]

Bush rigged the voting?....riiight.

[Viper]

Remember DN, that is more Moore.

[shadowrunner]

i know ppl stateside who say they were in a bus to go to the polling booths or something and the cops stopped them and wouldnt let them go. cant recall the whole story as i just squashed my finger in a door :queer:
but its someone backing up moore`s claims.
i suppose `rig` isnt the right word. i dont think he did anything illegal. just a lot of loophole. but hey, i cant say gore wouldve been any better, know nothing about him.

[Viper]

Stopping a busload of voters wont win any elections. That's 20 out of 2 million voting.

[IEatFriedPikmin]

my brother-in-law saw it. he said that many democrats will like it because they will want to believe everything in it. republicans will hate it because they will find loopholes, and find his arguements dumb. and then he said he doesnt think it would sway many people, unless they are beligerent.

[Glenn2K4]

^ Stopping a busload of voters wont win any elections. That's 20 out of 2 million voting.
if one such event occured, whose to say that this matter didnt replicate elsewhere, thus making the numerical increment that won Bush the election even slimmer.

and dont even mention what happened in Florida shall we?

whether we believe the movie or not, I do think that it was very courageous of the director to make such a movie at a time like this and against a major figure such as the president.

it's nice how we got Saddam, but Bin Ladin was the supposed leader of the 9/11 attacks...yet we dont have him, still have high gas prices, still have yet to obtain subtaintial amounts of fuel, still have people dying in the war with no specific overall goal, and for what....while Bush plays golf.

lol, ok-ok...but the reason Bush is being blamed and not Congress is because Bush has something that historians like to call.."the bully pulpit." Bush has more say in this war than anybody else and is fact.

[Cofey]

Why are you so stuck on this Saddam 9/11 theory?

We ousted Saddam for other reasons, not 9/11. See, this is the Moore BS I'm talking about. Moore says that Bush went after Saddam as though Saddam masterminded 9/11 and you believe Moore.
I've been against this war since way before seeing Moore's movie. I like you a lot Viper, but please don't insult me like that. I'm not letting anyone make up my mind for me. Bush said himself he went after Saddam because he thought Iraq was involved in the September 11th attacks, and because Saddam had WMDs up the wazoo. Both of those statements are bullshit, and he can't prove otherwise. That's why I'm against the war, he hasn't given me a good enough reason to support it.

[tomservo]

Gollum and Viper- Not only did Bush say Saddam was linked with Al Qaida (or Qaeda, whatever) about 9/11, he STILL says there's a link, even after the 9/11 Commission said there was no credible evidence of a link between Saddam and al Qaida with 9/11. So, he's wrong.....twice. Good one Bush.

Cheney himself even said that a meeting with Saddam and an al Qaida member was "pretty much confirmed," but the 9/11 Commision says that's untrue. Know what Cheney said? "I never said that." So he's wrong....twice. Good one Cheney.

[Cofey]

The draft. There is going to be one. I've already explained several times why (use the search feature to find a few). On top of that, that is congress, not Bush.

Not this again (rubs temples)....first, it's goiing to World Affairs.



Take my word for it...there will not be another draft for a very, very, very, very long time if ever again.
Every few years, Congress updates the draft legislation to make sure it's up to date in that most extreme of rare circumstances it would be needed, like all our military gets wiped out at once.


I've been saying this for over a year now and have backed it up for over a year. If I have to explain why again, I will but just take the word this itme.

:confused:

[Viper]

^
if one such event occured, whose to say that this matter didnt replicate elsewhere, thus making the numerical increment that won Bush the election even slimmer.

and dont even mention what happened in Florida shall we?
That was Florida he was talking about.

If several busses were stopped, that would have hit the news. I find the theory of stopping a buss/busses to ensure presidential voting victory to be quite ignorant. Does any one not know what the electoral college is?

I've been against this war since way before seeing Moore's movie. I like you a lot Viper, but please don't insult me like that. I'm not letting anyone make up my mind for me. Bush said himself he went after Saddam because he thought Iraq was involved in the September 11th attacks, and because Saddam had WMDs up the wazoo. Both of those statements are bullshit, and he can't prove otherwise. That's why I'm against the war, he hasn't given me a good enough reason to support it.I apologize, my intent was not to insult you. We gave Saddam weapons in the 80's and he cannot account for their useage, storage, destruction, etc....so where are they? That is how we have proof he has them.

If I gave you a 100" big Screen TV and came over a week later and asked you what you did with that TV and you couldn't give any account of it, I'd say you have it hidden. See the analogy?

His connection to Al Quida is there, it's been proven. His participation in 9/11 is what the commission was trying to find and found none. The commission wasn't trying to find any connection, just a 9/11 connection. Try this. I have a pen in front of me, in 3 days, you come over here and tell me what color pen it is. Tonight, I'm going to paint the pen and bury it in my neighbors yard. Will you be able to tell me what color my pen was? Probably not. That is what is going on with the commission.

Tom....see my above paragraphs.


Gollum, the first quote is supposed to say, "There is not going to be one." Simple error. As I stated in that quote, I've said it several times before and I just get tired of saying it so I was a tad frustrated when I typed it.

[Cofey]

I apologize, my intent was not to insult you.
Accepted. I'll always <3 you :queer:

Gollum, the first quote is supposed to say, "There is not going to be one." Simple error. As I stated in that quote, I've said it several times before and I just get tired of saying it so I was a tad frustrated when I typed it.
My bad, I apologize.

[nbakyfan15]

http://www.chicagoredstreak.com/frontpage/mid-news-midfahr28.html
Those are my thoughts.
How people can call it a "documentary" I do not know.

[tomservo]

"His connection to Al Quida is there, it's been proven. His participation in 9/11 is what the commission was trying to find and found none. The commission wasn't trying to find any connection, just a 9/11 connection. Try this. I have a pen in front of me, in 3 days, you come over here and tell me what color pen it is. Tonight, I'm going to paint the pen and bury it in my neighbors yard. Will you be able to tell me what color my pen was? Probably not. That is what is going on with the commission.

Tom....see my above paragraphs."

The thing is, though, that Bush WAS saying there was a connection on 9/11, and he still is. Who else has a connection with al Qaeda? Don't people say we have some in our country now?

And Viper, your analogies are a little confusing, but I think I understood them. The thing is, though, they don't answer or refute anything I said.

[tomservo]

http://www.chicagoredstreak.com/frontpage/mid-news-midfahr28.html
Those are my thoughts.
How people can call it a "documentary" I do not know.

Umm...I read that, and I must say, if that's all you've got then you don't have shit. Your rebuttals don't prove the facts wrong, they just elaborate. So John Ashcroft (the incumbent) actually lost to a dead guy's wife with no political background? That's even worse.
Moore's problem with the Saudis leaving on Sept. 13 isn't that they left, it's that they left with no full investigations. Oh, wait, 30 were interviewed? Out of 142? I guess that's good enough. :confused2

So, Moore leaves things open to interpretation when he doesn't have the facts? Jesus, the guy's terrible. Oh, wait, you mean he implied his opinion on what happened? Isn't that what documentary makers do?

[nbakyfan15]

Let me elaborate then...
Starting with the election...
Florida\Election 2000: Notes that Fox's main election person is related to Bush. So what? All the networks used the same information source for the election results. What Moore fails to tell you is this: FOX originally, iirc, called FL for Gore just like all the other networks. They were the first to CORRECTLY change the call and throw the state to Bush. A complete, automatic recount of the entire state the day after the initial tally verified the fact that Bush won by a razor thin margin. Throughout the selected recount process (in which votes in some counties were given special treatment by being hand counted while other counties did not do additional recounts--a process that completely defies the equal protection clause of the Constitution) at no time did Gore ever have a lead over Bush.

Moore also states at one point that the media recounts showed Gore would have won if the recounts had been allowed to continue--that Gore had actually the office stolen from him. This is completely false. The media reports were inconclusive.

From http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/12/MN10000.DTL :

The study by the media consortium showed that if Al Gore had been successful in pushing for the partial recounts he wanted, George W. Bush would still have been the winner of the 2000 election. The partial recounts would have given Bush a razor-thin margin of victory, according to the study by the Associated Press, New York Times and other media groups.

Now while its still debatable weather more Floridians wanted Bush or Gore, the recount Gore was pushing for would have resulted still in a Bush victory.

The fiasco over disenfranchised minority voters is equally as skewed. It is the duty, according to state law, of the local board of elections to verify that voting rolls are accurate. These boards, especially in the contested counties of Miami-Dade and other Democratic\Gore strongholds, are dominated by elected Democrats. To put the blame on Bush or Harris is unreasonable and plain inaccurate. It should be noted there are additional safegaurds in place to ensure nothing of the sort happens this year.

Finally, Moore seems to hurt his cause just for a moment by showing the protests around the inauguration. To me, it was a show of unlawfulness and complete disrespect for the Office of the Presidency that people would behave like that. I would feel the same way had they been doing that to Gore.

At this point, Moore talks about how Bush's first 8 months in office were "a failure" and how he was already on the road to being "a lame duck president" To back this up, he cites how the Senate was no longer in Republican control. Nonsense. Bush had already pushed through his tax cut initiatives as well as important education bills that he had worked very hard for and had promised in his campaign. Agree or disagree with those policies, they were implemented. As to the Senate, there were 50 Republicans, 49 Democrats, and 1 Independent. The House was still strongly Republican. Clinton had 6 years of a complete Republican Congress and no one used that as a reason to label him a “lame duck”

For the next half hour, Moore bats around the terms “Bin Laden” “Saudi Arabia” and “oil” in an almost desperate attempt to convince the viewer that Bush had direct ties to Osama Bin Laden. Poppycock. Despite the “wedding” that “a few family members attended” Osama has been completely cut off from the family for about a decade now. There is nothing to suggest Bush’s actions in dealing with the family has financed terrorism or OBL or anything else of that nature.

Richard Clark, who Moore interviewed in the film, recently stated that he was the one who authorized those planes carrying the Bin Laden family to leave. He testified to the 9/11 Commision that it was the right thing to do given the circumstances.

The teacher that day at the school Bush was reading at on 9/11 also has come forward to say that while she is a staunch Democrat, Bush is unfairly portrayed in that classroom scene. According to her, he handled himself very well and as she would want a president to lead. This, of course, did not makes Moore’s movie.
The film gets very emotional with the subject of Iraq and I think in this emotion is where the film can do its most damage. Since 1998, the official position of the United States government towards Iraq is that regime change is absolutely necessary. Clinton threatened a full scale invasion many times in 1998 and had the backing of prominent Democrats. Indeed, it should be noted that quite a few Democrats, including John Kerry, voted to authorize the war against Iraq. John Kerry also made an infamous speech prior to the war where he went on about the threat Iraq posed and about its sophisticated WMD program. The idea that this was some Bush conspiracy is simply inane. What happened to the WMD? Well, there were reports that it was moved to other countries by Iraq in the face of invasion (Syria and Iran primarily). The fact is, members from both political parties supported the war and made very convincing cases for it.

Indeed, Moore, when discussing the coalition, fails to note the backing of England, Austrailia, Spain, and other nations who are perhaps more respected than Iceland or Romania.

On the same subject, from Moore’s presentation, you would guess Iraq was a paradise before the invasion. He makes no mention of what we did find—mass graves of 1000s of people, torture chambers used routinely, and so on. He also uses extremely bad taste in portraying, at times, our troops as bloodthirsty and uncaring (ie playing heavy metal music and then showing pictures of innocent dead). His use of showing beheadings and other grim acts is uncalled for, in my humble opinion. He harps on Bush for toying with people’s emotions with half truths and falsehoods and yet Moore does the exact same thing he preaches against.

Anyways, I think that’s a pretty good look at the movie. In the end, I think Moore is simply bitter because of his initial meeting with Bush, where Bush tells Moore to “go find some real work” He has been seething ever since. He called Americans (while in England mind you) “the dumbest people on earth” Well, if too many people buy into his movie…he may well have a point.

[[[tavis]]]

regardless of what happened, bush is a moron, and no i don't hate him cause he is a republican but because he cannot speak and says shit like "nucular" and laughs like he's actually had a compitent thought in his head.

[tomservo]

The election- His main point was that not everyone was allowed to vote, which isn'r right. He's not saying the votes, if recounted, would have showed Gore winning, but that not every vote was cast.

By "lame duck" he means a president who doesn't do anything important. How many presidents actually have terms that are highly remembered? How many presidents have been forgotten? All he was saying was that Bush looked like he'd be another.

"For the next half hour, Moore bats around the terms “Bin Laden” “Saudi Arabia” and “oil” in an almost desperate attempt to convince the viewer that Bush had direct ties to Osama Bin Laden. Poppycock. Despite the “wedding” that “a few family members attended” Osama has been completely cut off from the family for about a decade now. There is nothing to suggest Bush’s actions in dealing with the family has financed terrorism or OBL or anything else of that nature."

Moore didn't say Bush financed terrorism, he's saying that the money invested by the Saudis influenced Bush's thinking. Bush doesn't have ties with Bin Laden, but he has strong ties with the Bin Laden family, and the Saudis, who are supposedly harboring terrorists. But nothing's said about that.

"Sammon's conservative perspective makes his account of Bush's behavior at the end of the photo-op all the more surprising. Bush is described as smiling and chatting with the children "as if he didn't have a care in the world" and "in the most relaxed manner imaginable." White House aide Gordon Johndroe, then came in as he usually does at the end of press conferences, and said, "Thank you, press. If you could step out the door we came in, please." A reporter then asked, "Mr. President, are you aware of the reports of the plane crash in New York? Is there anything...", But Bush interrupted, and no doubt recalling his order, "DON'T SAY ANYTHING YET," Bush responded, "I'll talk about it later." But still the president did not leave. "He stepped forward and shook hands with [classroom teacher] Daniels, slipping his left hand behind her in another photo-op pose. He was taking his good old time. ... Bush lingered until the press was gone." [Fighting Back: The War on Terrorism - From Inside the Bush White House, by Bill Sammon, 10/02, p. 90]" The main thing is, though, that his photo-op was publically announced, and anyone who read his itinerary would have known when and where he was. Doesn't anyone know the amount of danger he put those school kids in? There could have been a plane coming to crash into the school. Granted, it wouldn't have been stopped if Bush left, but he had to have known the amount of danger he (and therefore everyone around him) was in.

And Moore never says Iraq was a paradise. He shows kids playing. As for the troops, yes they did appear to be very bloodthirsty and uncaring, but was that his fault? He showed the ones that didn't seem to care and those who did. One thing is, though, that that's how you are when you're in the military. That's the whole point. I saw my brother go from a funny, clever individual to a fart joke loving, Disturbed-listening fuckwad. I hated him and the way he was, and that's how everyone in the military is. That's how you HAVE to be to kill people for a living. Bloodthirsty and uncaring. Also, that's probably how the Iraqis see us.

As for Bush's "go find some real work" line, I would be insulted if I were a filmmaker. I guess making documentaries and movies isn't "real work." Especially if they disagree with you.

[Viper]

NBAKYFAN13, you sir.....rock.


Tavis, stuttering is not a mental disorder. "Stuttering tends to run in families, but it is unclear to what extent genetic factors are important. There is also evidence that stuttering may be associated with some neurological deficits, but psychological components tend to make the symptoms worse or better within each case. Surprisingly, people with significant speech difficulty often don't stutter when singing or when they are alone talking to themselves. ( I knew a guy named TC that stuttered like crazy, damn near every word bur could rap Bone and never miss a syllable) Stuttering tends to persist into adulthood more in males than females.

Thomas jefferoson and James Earl Jones have the exact same problem Bush does.



I guess Moore has never heard of the Electoral College.

[DLX]

Learn to find your own facts and answers. You are allowing a politically and financially driven individual to make up your mind for you. Why can't you take my word for it? Because I don't have the budget to make a movie of it?

You are letting someone make up your mind too. It's not like you formulated your ideas of bush out of nowhere, someone or something convinced you that what bush is doing is the right thing, so saying that hes wrong for letting someone teach him something is just stupid. I guess that makes anyone who ever learned anything from anyone wrong for not having learned it themselves.Also if he were to take your word for it, that would mean he is letting you make up his mind for him. See the paradox?

[Viper]

If he can accept one persons word for it...why not mine? Why his?


What I was implying is to research your ideas from multiple sources. Get as many sides of the story you can from as many 'reputable' sources as you can. Moore is like Spong to us. I tell you the origin, the source, the reason.....the why and who. Moore just slams Bush and creates psuedo facts to support it.

If Bush did something wrong, I'd tell you but would Moore ever tell you something Bush did right? Probably not.

[shadowrunner]

^of course not, but would you admit it if michael moore did something right?

i like arguement at Nnow, they are always so mature ^_^. there has been like no name calling this entire thread how cool is that.

anyway. regardless of opinions of moore and wether or not he is bending the truth or woteva, you gotta admit that at least he is bringing to light a lot of subjects that need investigation and looking into.
of course his stuff is opiniated and one sided. as much as i love his stuff, i dont think they should be classed as `documentary`. because vipers right [cant believe is said that] and he does only give one side of the story. i would like to see someone make a rebuttal documentary saying the good things george bush has done because o know of none. yet i doubt someone can become president [rigging or no rigging] without doing something right. but a mature rebuttal. not some stupid thing saying `moore is a fat white american` or something. thats just stupid. at least moore backs up his info. those against him just say, `oh, he lied here. he lied there.` i havent seen any proof from these sources, just accusations.

but when someone starts 2 wars with in four years, then that someone is a scary saddistic person and not one who should be in charge of the worlds most powerful country. one maybe i can understand, [with 9/11 and all] but 2 wars? in one term? thats not right.... IMO