Does Religion Belong in Government?

[Lord Worm]

I think religion has no part in government. Governments that use the bible to justify their actions are really not justifying anything.

A serious problem is that people sometimes interpret the bible in such a way that gives them divine justifaction to hate. Look at the KKK, look at Israel and Philistine, look at those Al Queda guys. (The KKK is apparently a political-action group).

[The Dude]

Religon is a personal matter. But a truely religous man will let his religon influence the way he gorverns. It should be kept out but it can't be done as long as people are human.


IMO removing "under god" is stupid, it's more of a tradition in today's age, and can be interpeted diffrently by diffrent people.

[Travis]

Of course it doesn't.

[Michael]

No, people can come up with guidelines themselves...but many people want to say, "no! your just human, you couldn't possibly know what is right or wrong!" That was of thinking really ticks me off..and there's no need for it.

[alpha]

America will always remained a little Christian country.


Sadly.

[HereticPB]

No and your mind should lead your way not blindless faith in a book written by a human.

[The Dude]

I'm a Catholic Christian (and proud). I do believe that there is a power greater then all of us. It's depressing to think the whole universe was just an accident,an anomoly if you will.

Don't discreminate me because I believe in God.

[Pro A.]

Thats cool. I respect that.

Religion does not belong in government unless the country was founded for religious purposes. Our founding fathers were not religious. They were deists.

[Sandman]

I don't think religion should play a direct role in government, but it would be good to have our political leaders follow the good values taught by various religious groups. However, you don't neccesarily have to be religious to follow those values, so it's not a direct relationship.

[Sloth]

Even if religion is implied into the government it doesn't really matter until they start using the religion in pathetic ways.

[[[tavis]]]

example of why religion in politics is bad, gay marriage

[IEatFriedPikmin]

religion is not bad in government. Sure, we definitly dont need to put a huge focus on it, but it should be there.

a good example is 9/11. Everyone, even government officials prayed and referred to God during that period. But whenever we are not in a crisis like that, we never do, and often try to get rid of him. it doesnt make sense to me.

[Fugazi]

a good example is 9/11. Everyone, even government officials prayed and referred to God during that period. But whenever we are not in a crisis like that, we never do, and often try to get rid of him. it doesnt make sense to me.
We have a winner.

[Sloth]

]']example of why religion in politics is bad, gay marriage

Correct but I don't know why everyone doesn't notice thing. The President shouldn't try to do this just for votes from certain religions.

[Blaksmoke]

Religion should not and should never go hand-in-hand with our government. Ever.

[Teh Roxor!]

Maybe it shouldn't, but it always will. Religion is just a collection of ideals, and when somebody believes in those ideals they will show in their judgement. It's not really that bad of a thing; the guidlines of nearly all religions promote good morals. Of course those morals are not strictly followed, but it's better than nothing.

[HereticPB]

Religion and government don't mix. For example Taliban - Al Queda, Spanish inquisition.

Hell Religion was a government how about the attacks on scientists which resulted in the killing or jailing of them due to it be against religious government.

[Blaksmoke]

And the pope STILL hasn't admitted that the church was wrong about Galileo! Ohohhohoho!

[=NukeBlaze=]

That is because the earth is flat and the center of the universe, stupid.

[Crow]

no it shouldn't since no one can prove religion, thats like the president backing up something he said because he read it in Oliver or something

[MagicJuggler]

Hmm...how about examples of how religion is a repressive affair...

We've already seen Inquisition, Galileo, and Al Qaeda.

What about the Wars of Religion, the Salem Witch Hunts, the arrest of John T. Scopes (and the subsequent "Monkey trial"), and HUAC (partially motivated because of their despisal of the innately atheist nature of Marxism)?

Care to add more examples of church and state becoming a nightmarish union?

[Kliq]

America will always remained a little Christian country.


Sadly.

So true.

[MagicJuggler]

As you can tell, I'm not too fond of religion...

Organized religion is an opiate of the masses.
-Karl Marx

Love of one is barbarism, for it is exercised at the expense of all others.
-Friedrich Nietzsche.

My mind rejects the whole present social order and Christianity-home, the recognized virtues, classes of life, and religious doctrines.
-James Joyce.

[plebben]

religion is not bad in government. Sure, we definitly dont need to put a huge focus on it, but it should be there.

a good example is 9/11. Everyone, even government officials prayed and referred to God during that period. But whenever we are not in a crisis like that, we never do, and often try to get rid of him. it doesnt make sense to me.
You only see it that way because you believe in god and pray to god.
You do not know to what or how these officials pray. Thay say that they pray for those who lost their lives, but that doesnt mean thay pray to the christian god, or any god at all for that matter. They can pray to the nothingness and the universe(although im sure you see thats as absurd, and a agree that its most unlikly that they did) just aswell.
And even if they said that they prey to god for their lives, what does that mean to those wgho dont believe in the god of abraham? Buhddists, atheists, etc.
A governemnt refering to a god discriminated people who dont believe in that god or the norms of that religion.

[HereticPB]

Anybody remember the 10 commandments at that court house down in Bible Country.

Stop all this nonsense we all know there are several gods for objects, people, animals, etc. My mouse is controlled by the mouse God. My car is controlled by the car God. Everything has a God and/or spirit.

Church and state should be separated by a wide rift. To my view there should be no religion becaused it stupified people towards being stupid. I read something that if it wasn't for religion we would have had computers in 20 AD as well as other technological advances. Just check out Da Vinci's ideas many of which have come to truth today. Da Vinci created the ball bearing among other things.

HtPB

[bobo_ess]

Religion and government used to be almost unseparable. In Iran , the gov't is run by high ranking clerics. It was like that during the renonaissance ( not spelled correctly) royalty and the chuch used to be the richest areas as well before the reformation, when it started to split and the crown started to break away from the church when king henry started the anglican church.

[MagicJuggler]

Church and state should be separated by a wide rift. To my view there should be no religion becaused it stupified people towards being stupid. I read something that if it wasn't for religion we would have had computers in 20 AD as well as other technological advances. Just check out Da Vinci's ideas many of which have come to truth today. Da Vinci created the ball bearing among other things.

Although most people I know whom wear religion on their shoulders could support your statements, religion did not stifle our ability to have computers in 20 AD.

Rather, it's more along the lines if had Julius Caesar decided NOT to burn the Library of Alexandria, which essentially was a repository for learning of all sorts (w/ technology ranging from steam engines to laser tech), then maybe we would have the PC by 20 AD.

[plebben]

Your oint is good. Doubt such advanced technology was in the great library though ;).
The greeks(who were the ones along with the egyptians who we have records from) were mostly just interested in philosophy.
Platon (who is the worlds most renowned philosopher together with socrates and aristoteles) believed we lived in a static world meaning there was no progress or advancement. Everything that could be invented was already invented.
In the end they were too concetrated on theory that they forgot to put their ideas into practice because those who listened to platon didnt see the reason to finalize it. If it wasnt already useful, functioning at hand there was no reason to try to put your ideas in to reality since it obviously wouldnt be worth it because if it was that good they would already use it.
Its pretty bizzare but that is how platon believed, and so did also many of his followers for hundreds of years after his death.

[The Dude]

So should religous man such as Bill Clinton and George W. Bush be allowed to serve in government?

[The Dude]

So should religous man such as Bill Clinton and George W. Bush be allowed to serve in government?

[Backlash]

I don't think religion should play a direct role in government, but it would be good to have our political leaders follow the good values taught by various religious groups. However, you don't neccesarily have to be religious to follow those values, so it's not a direct relationship.

Agreed.

And "The Dude", I think it's fine to have religious people in the Government, as long as they don't base all their decisions around religion (ie: gay marriage). But like Sandman said, it's good to have them follow the morals that are taught by the religions.

[peasantlover]

great thread... GREAT THREAD. Let's get all the religion haters and atheists togethor in one thread and let them post bogus examples of how God fearing people caused all the worlds problems. Where is Viper for all this? lol..

Let me say a few things.

1. the governments leading Iran, etc. are not religions.. they are fanatic governments. There is a big difference.
2. No, Pro A, you are wrong. The majority of the founders of this country were Christians, although of different denominations. Not only was this country founded as a Christian nation, but the only reason Europeans were even on this continent was to practice their religion. Some were deists, but deists does not mean atheist.
3. There was never meant to be a "separation of church and state".. that is a modern liberal secular myth. The bill of rights guarantees freedom of religion, that means no religion can be persecuted, which was exactly what happenned when the bill of rights were removed from the courthouse in Alabama. Nowhere in the Constitution is "freedom from religion" guaranteed.

4. For every mishap caused by religion you can named, I can name 2 caused by the abscence of religion. WHy I certainly dont support government sponsored religion, man is evil and licentious by nature and there is no doubt that society is more moderate and moral when religion exists.

Here are two governments that massacred millions of people as the direct result of the abscence of religion: Nazi Germany and Communist Russia. This is what happens when governments are atheistic and religion is persecuted.

Backlash, what exactly is your point in bringing up gay marriage so much? Gay marriage has never been accepted in 4k years of human history, in societies with religion and in societies without religion.

[Bryan]

The Dude: Yes, they should be allowed to. It's a lot like people fearing Kennedy would be led by the Pope if he were President because he was Catholic, it's a baseless fear. People can define their own morality, some use organized religion, some use other things. I don't think it's necessary for government to necessarily push any religion on anyone, but I actually support government funding of homeless shelters run by religious institutions.. and other things that help people in need. Like, things that don't only help the Church, but also show some sort of worth in the community.

(Numbered for your convenience!)

1. The Ten Commandments in front of the Courthouse deal was messed up. Let's try to avoid representing religion under the guise that it is a basis for law, when there are other things that could have been put out to balance the religions being represented.

2. Strictly atheist states are just as bad as theocracies like Iran. Just thought I'd share my thoughts there.

3. Stalin wasn't running a communist state. He was running a dictatorship. It's been said before that communism doesn't exist in the real world. Whoever said that deserves a medal, because they are absolutely right. But yes, he still did kill millions, and they were atheistic, but then again.. Stalin was a fucking maniac. That may have had something to do with it.

4. Hitler took a nice gasp of mustard gas, went out to lunch, and never came back. He was about a psycho, so it isn't very surprising that he went on a kill crazy rampage either. He did a lot as far as roads and things for Germany, but he really did mess up some stuff. And that's an understatement ;)

5. Bush wants to make an amendment banning gay marriage. FYI.

6. peasant, did you speak to the Founders yourself? Because you seem to know quite a bit about them.

But from what I've heard, they didn't want to base the country around any one religion, because that would be irresponsible. They probably didn't want a government like England's, where the King only ruled because "God said so". But whatever!

7. A separation of Church and state isn't in the Constitution, but it was written about. I think what they were trying to avoid here was, again, a government where religion is in control, and not the people.

[The Dude]

Have you read the last 4 command ments? (6-10)

6) Thou shall not murder
7) Thou shall not commit adaultery
8) Thou shall not steal
9) Thou shall not dive false testimony agiasnt you neighboor
10) Thou shall not covet you neighboor's hosue (personal possessions)

As you can clearly see that these last 4 commandments are already in our law. Do you think it was an accident? Just tossing this out for arguements sake. So far I agree with Mysterio has said.

[peasantlover]

eh, actually I didnt disagree with anything Mysterio wrote either. Yes, the founders certainly didnt want a government like England. The King established the Anglican church (Church of England) just so he could get a divorce, and forced the populace to convert from Catholocism.. that is exactly what they wanted to avoid, you are right.
However my only point is that it was never their intention to strip the public sphere completely of religion. (as for knowing them.. well I read, you know? heh. Federalist papers, the constitution, letters and works of Jefferson, Hamilton especially, Ben Franklin, etc. There is no doubt, anyway, that they wanted the people to be religious - because they understood that the easiest way, and most likely the only way, to guarantee that the people remain moral and law abidding citizens is for their to be religion).

And of course you are right Stalin and Hitler both were psychos. Seems that was a requirement in Europe to rise to power in the early 20th century. My point is, tho, in order for their programme's to be accepted (at least in Hitler's case it was accepted, I guess Stalin's evils were more rammed down the Russian peoples throat).. religion first had to be stripped. Neither woulda been able to pull of what they did in, say, 17th century America, or 16th century Europe. Or even ancient Greece or Rome, where the pagan gods were worshipped.

[plebben]

And of course you are right Stalin and Hitler both were psychos. Seems that was a requirement in Europe to rise to power in the early 20th century.
As opposed to someplace else that had dictators who came to power through revolutions?

[Bryan]

Certainly, their goal wasn't to rid the country of religion, because that would be religious intolerance, just as supporting one over another.. to which I made a reference to when I was talking about strictly atheist states. That's why, unlike many people of my political outlook, I don't think it's a big deal for there to be some religion, but it needs to be carefully watched when involved with government. That's all I'm saying.

The Dude: Yeah, I know the Ten Commandments, and I know that they are a basis for law. However, I don't believe that's why they were put out in front of a courthouse in ALABAMA, and also there are more non-denominational equivalents for law, and there are also things that would cover, say, Islam, or Buddhism, or whatever.. more than the Ten Commandments would.

[MagicJuggler]

As for the technology, yes steam engines and laser tech did exist.

Hero of Alexandria did essentially invent the basic steam engine, over 1000 before Robert Fulton's steamboat, but his engine was never widely used.

We should know about Archimedes, arguably the equal of Isaac Newton. His most famous device was the burning mirror, a network of mirrors that reflected sunlight into a coherent beam capable of burning ships. In other words, it was a primitive laser.

http://www.tmth.edu.gr/en/aet/5/55.html

http://www.mcs.drexel.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/contents.html

[plebben]

Interesting. Never heard about that before. But I wold not call that a laser. sure its the same principle of concentrating light but in that case a child with a magnifying glas playing evil god over ants would also be using laser. ;)

The steam engine is very interestiong though :)

[MagicJuggler]

Interesting. Never heard about that before. But I wold not call that a laser. sure its the same principle of concentrating light but in that case a child with a magnifying glas playing evil god over ants would also be using laser. ;)

The steam engine is very interestiong though :)

Generically speaking, yes a child using a magnifying glass would be using a laser. You are right however, about it not technically being a laser; laser itself is an acronym meaning Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission Radiation.

At any rate, sorry for turning the religion thread into a "weird science" thread.

[Backlash]

Backlash, what exactly is your point in bringing up gay marriage so much?
:wtf:
As far as I know, this is the only time I've ever brought up gay marriage!

[Bryan]

I think he just called you gay..

God..

[Sloth]

And the only asked him "why he brings it up so much" is because it makes Bush look bad in some form so he wanted to try to shut his trap.

[Backlash]

Well, I didn't mean for it to make Bush look bad, I was just using it as an example and it was the first thing that came into my head. Jesus Christ, it's amazing how much people can blow shit out of proportion...

[David]

*Is extremely surprised someone didn't say religion is bad because some terrorists are Islamic and all people who follow the Islamic teachings are terrorists*

[Blaksmoke]

Well don't bring it up now!

[Dorbin]

I think a certain code of ethics belongs in government (a belief in what is right and wrong), but we shouldn't openly endorse one religion over another.

[Relient J]

I agree that as a nation, the United States government shouldn't compell any of its citizens to conform to any one religion, but I don't see anything wrong with public servants acting on their convictions. That's the essence of our freedom. We don't have to obey the status quo, or what the government says is right. If we disagree with our public servants, or feel that their convictions are misguided, we can vote them out of office.

[Lord Worm]

Have you read the last 4 commandments? (6-10)

6) Thou shall not murder
7) Thou shall not commit adaultery
8) Thou shall not steal
9) Thou shall not dive false testimony agiasnt you neighboor
10) Thou shall not covet you neighboor's hosue (personal possessions)



Even if there weren't any 10 Commandments, these actions simply aren't acceptable conduct. Are you suggesting that we needed "god" to tell us not to do these things? Remember a lot of the morals of the bible are primative, uneducated people justifying their own morals by manifesting them as a higher being.

[Relient J]

^ That's your opinion, but I believe wholeheartedly in the God of the Bible, in his son Jesus Christ (my savior), and his Holy Spirit, which is freely available to all who will accept him.

[Sloth]

^Lol...that was really not needed.

[Relient J]

^ I disagree. I think it proves in specifics that an educated American can live a life that is not divorced of his faith. In my way of thinking, it was wholeheartedly on topic.

[aerofan113]

Religion has a small part in goverment. But It cannot be how you make an important disiscion. Religon cannot be the deciding factor bercause not everyone is the same religion as you, but we are all americans so base it on that. Not religion.

[peasantlover]

sorry backdraft, I must have gotten you confused with someone else.

Anyway, my point was that gay marriage is ridiculous with or without religion, which is why it has been dismissed by every society that has ever existed, religious or not (including ancient greece, where homosexuality by the elites).

As for the 10 commandments on in Alabama, it was a disgrace that they were removed. They were a tribute to the moral law that the constitutuion of Alabama and the U.S. was based on, and they did nothing to hinder anyone's right to practice their own religion. Hell, the U.S. Supreme Court has the 10 commandments posted, as well as statues of Greek gods and goddesses. We still swear our justices and presidents in with a bible. They were removed because the ACLU, which is an atheist activist groups, wishes to push their religious beliefs on others.