Brainwashing

[Lord Worm]

Before I get into this I need to say a few things:

1. Keep an open mind, this is more philosophical than political.
2. Do not relate to real-world politics. Example? "bsuh lvers are all brainwashed!1!!!1lol!"



Alright then. As we all know, when someone comes around who doesn't share the same political beliefs as we do, we automatically think, "Well, they've been brainwashed".

But I'm thinking, if you do a really good job of brainwashing, is it really such a bad thing? This is really just an off-shoot of something I posted earlier: Right and wrong can only be defined if there's two disagreeing parties.

For instance, I say "left" and you say "right". In my mind, you are wrong, in your mind, I am wrong. However, if we both say "right", the concept of right and wrong is outside our scope of understanding. Therefore, "left" isn't even considered. Let's broaden this.

Let's say the world was one giant country, strictly controlled. It could be Facist, it could be Communist (I'm not talking Utopian Communism), who cares? There is no Democracy, and people have no value to the state. This is the world as it stands.

So you might be thinking, "That's a pretty shitty world."
Maybe not.
You say, "Wouldn't people want to become a Democracy?"
Not if this government has its shit together.

Any good controlled state knows the value of propaganda. Our government has taken the time and effort to ensure that its people have been educated since youth against the evils of Democracy. Democracy in fact is a joke in this nation. Everyone knows it's "wrong". What would happen if someone for Democracy ran for office (Assuming mock elections are held to make the people think they matter a bit)?

You might think, "Well the government would shoot him."
Stuff like that tarnishes the good reputation of the state. A controlled state that knows what it's doing allows such candidates. Why?
Well, does America have a Communist party? Do they get any votes? Hmm...


So our controlled state is doing quite well for itself. Those who speak out against the state do not need to be "taken care of", they are ridiculed into submission by the people! The people throw mud at the state's enemies. That's how you know you've done a good job of brainwashing.

But the question still remains, "Is this ethical?" The people have been perfectly conditioned to believe that everything they do should be for the good of the state. Media is carefully censored, knowledge of science and technology is reduced to ensure no unwanted breakthroughs are made. Things are looking good for the state.

As a person living in a free and Democratic country, you'd probably think that this system is horrible. But I really don't think so. The people of this imaginary state believe with their hearts that the state is right, and do not question it, not even for a second. The state told the people they were happy, and the were. They really were.

Is that wrong?

[HereticPB]

You continuesly stating the state scares me more than brainwashing.

It happens everywhere and even on TV. They brainwash you into dressing , eating, drinking, behaving a cetain way. Really it is very sickening.

If you grow up in a right leaning house you tend to become right leaning and the opposite on the left. Not all of the time just majority of the time. Also middle ideas and lazyness tend to be passed on by watching and listenting to ones parents, government,tv, etc.

[Shotgun Plasma]

the church also brainwashed, it happen to me once.

[plebben]

If teh people of the country are happy with its governemnt the governemnt is only evil in the eye of the beholder.
Heretic would most probably think teh government in my country is evil because he lives in a society with different norms and rights.
However people here are happy. and we have, in my oppinion, more moral freedom than the average US citizen. That adds to a populations happines most of the time.

[Omega]

Plebben, its a good thing the U.S. helped make it possible to enjoy your lifestyle and government so much.

[Viper]

Lord Worm, lack of a self will is the worst form of mental slavery.

Free will, free knowledge, life as a series of trials and tribulations over a life long sentence of servitude and hand outs.

It's a false peace. It's control. It's the degradation of the human soul.



You told us to keep an open mind yet you are describing a world in which none have one.

[Omega]

You told us to keep an open mind yet you are describing a world in which none have one.
ULTRA COMBO [/killer instinct]

[plebben]

Plebben, its a good thing the U.S. helped make it possible to enjoy your lifestyle and government so much.
No doubt about that. But your statment was unnecesary. It didnt really have anything to do with what i was saying, did it?

[HereticPB]

Many countries including your own plebben have lemmings for people. They don't care how they live as long as the Government takes care of them like 5 year olds. They don't care where they are or who they are with if they get feed and cleaned and free health care. But that is a total other issue far away from this topic.

Well, does America have a Communist party? Do they get any votes? Hmm... Yes, there is and yes they get votes. There is also a green party, a libertarian party, a socialist party, and many more. And they get votes but not enough to garner a win or attention because they are seen as complete weirdos or insane wackos but they get votes.

But the question still remains, "Is this ethical?" The people have been perfectly conditioned to believe that everything they do should be for the good of the state. Media is carefully censored; knowledge of science and technology is reduced to ensure no unwanted breakthroughs are made. Things are looking good for the state. Sounds like the Matrix on steroids and no I think it is not ethical because it is a version of slavery.

I think it boils down to people wanting to take care of themselves rather than being a State controlled puppet. If you want to be a State controlled puppet by all means stay in those countries and vote that way if voting counts in those countries. But it crosses the line when people move to America and try to turn it into a socialist or communized country because they have been washed to believe that State control is good. When multiple studies, inquiries, and facts have come out and shown these types of State controlled countries are really in the tank in Healthcare, taxes, etc.

[Lord Worm]

There is no such thing as a human spirit.
There is no such thing as right or wrong.

Place yourself in that society. Would you think, "This is horseshit?"
No, you wouldn't. In fact, you'd defend your controlled and monitored life as much as you're defending your free life.

"You told us to keep an open mind yet you are describing a world in which none have one."

That just doesn't make sense. I'm asking you to refer to this controlled world. Does everyone in that world think their government is wrong? Who are you to tell them that everything they know is evil? Think of it like that.


"Yes, there is and yes they get votes. There is also a green party, a libertarian party, a socialist party, and many more. And they get votes but not enough to garner a win or attention because they are seen as complete weirdos or insane wackos but they get votes."

And thank you Heretic, there is no one who I'd rather have said that. Society sees these parties as "Complete weirdos or insane wackos". Of course, there are a few votes, are they a threat America's Democracy? Hell no. There is no reason to remove them, because everyone knows they're wackos. In fact, their presence strengthens belief in the state.

Want an example? What has the existence of the Democrats done to your zeal as a Republican? All you do is post about how terrible they are. If they didn't exist, your firey belief in Conservatism probably wouldn't be quite as strong. There would be nothing to compare to.

[The Dude]

your trying to corner us with your hypothetical situation and you have set it up so there is no "right" answer yet you want us to give you one.

Every society that has surpressed their people has fallen or is falling as we speak. If my parents made me grow up in a bubble in my bed room my whole life, without an ouside influence, you can bet that I will still have a free will to do what I want.

[Lord Worm]

I'm not trying to get a "right" answer. I'm trying to demonstrate that right and wrong depends on who you ask. I'm trying to get you to say, "Yes, to someone who is being brainswashed and controlled is happy and believes they're right." Not whether or not you think it's right.

[Blaksmoke]

Yes, sometimes it's very hard to look at something from another perspective if you're so used to something else.

[Viper]

Lord Worm, lack of a self will is the worst form of mental slavery.
Happiness in slavery. That is what you are suggesting we accept.


Just because the collective as a whole believes something is right does not make it so.


For several centuries, we believed the Earth was flat. We were wrong. We believed Earth was the center of the universe. We were wrong.

All collective ideas will at some point become questioned. No matter what level of control of self will is put in place.....it is human nature to question everything.


Your utopia may not be flawed in teh eyes of the people for centuries but at some point, the flaw will become noticed and exploited and the realization of the people that they are not of their own free will bring about the downfall of this false utopia.

[Lord Worm]

"Just because the collective as a whole believes something is right does not make it so."

If everybody believes something right, it is right. Who defines right and wrong? People do. There is nothing else on earth that defines right and wrong othe than people.

If you're going to say that people don't define right and wrong, then the only person left is God.
Oh right, I forgot: God doesn't exist!

People hide behind the concept of a god to justify their own morals.



Viper, you seem like a reasonably intelligent fellow, so I'd like to know who defines right and wrong if people don't.


And yes, I am suggesting happiness in slavery. You call it slavery, to someone else it's freedom. And please, we'll just assume that my controlled state is infallible. This is more philosophical that politcal, we don't have to get into whether or not it could happen. You and I both know that it's impossible.

[plebben]

Many countries including your own plebben have lemmings for people. They don't care how they live as long as the Government takes care of them like 5 year olds. They don't care where they are or who they are with if they get feed and cleaned and free health care. But that is a total other issue far away from this topic.

Yes, there is and yes they get votes. There is also a green party, a libertarian party, a socialist party, and many more. And they get votes but not enough to garner a win or attention because they are seen as complete weirdos or insane wackos but they get votes.

Sounds like the Matrix on steroids and no I think it is not ethical because it is a version of slavery.

I think it boils down to people wanting to take care of themselves rather than being a State controlled puppet. If you want to be a State controlled puppet by all means stay in those countries and vote that way if voting counts in those countries. But it crosses the line when people move to America and try to turn it into a socialist or communized country because they have been washed to believe that State control is good. When multiple studies, inquiries, and facts have come out and shown these types of State controlled countries are really in the tank in Healthcare, taxes, etc.

How are the people in my country lemmings compared to people in your country?
We work 9to5, so do you.
We spend time with friends and family in the same way you do.
We drive our cars whereever we want and whenever we want(but not as often since we pay $1½ per liter(not galon) cause we dont have any natural oil).
We have an IT-Infrastructure unmatched in europe; save Denmark. In the world only South Korea surpasses Denmark.
And guess what, we critizise our government just as often as you do. And we're allowed to do it anyway we want and as much as we want. As long as we dont hurt anyone or disturbe others with it. Just the way it is in america.

However we dont turn our backs on unfortunate people.
We dont have idiotic laws.
We cant sue someone or a company for astronimical amounts of money that is not realative to the crime or injury.
I cant live a decent life on social wellfare, unless all i want is to sit on my sofa smoking pot day in day out going out to shop only for the most essencial nessecities. But you can rest asured you dont have to starve to death if you put an effort into trying to make a difference and get a job but fail, because youre either not swedish or something in that manner.
And with that knowledge most people feel safe. If you concider that as our government taking care of us as 5 year olds then so be it. But i cant help wonder why.
Its compasion it all is based on. Not a strugle to make us willess lemmings. We have voted for this.
Sometimes the scale wages over to the conservatives, last time was 91-94. All that helped with was to make sure the swedish currency lost half its value over one night in november after the election.

I agree with you on one point though. There is no need for america to turn socialistic. Your population is probably to big for the state to be able to support it. But its always good to have different places with different forms of governments.
Variation is good.
Variation is needed.

Just because the collective as a whole believes something is right does not make it so.

Yes it does. That is how you define right and wrong.
For several centuries, we believed the Earth was flat. We were wrong. We believed Earth was the center of the universe. We were wrong.
Its not the same thing. Abstract rights and wrongs are not the same thing as concrete rights and wrongs.

[Lord Worm]

Despite infinite differences,
We'll make them all the same.

[Viper]

You call it slavery, to someone else it's freedom.What about to the person implimenting the slavery? Obviously that person knows the truth. They know that control does not equal freedom. Perhaps they are the ones that begins to question the system.

And please, we'll just assume that my controlled state is infallible.If it were infallible, the system of control would not be needed but that is beyond your proposition here. IF it were infallible and no one could or would question the system, yes, the people could believe it to be a utopia. Remember though, the inability to question the system is more slavery.


Plebben, if the ideals of right and wrong are subjective to that point, then the court system and laws are invalid based on the opinion of the law breaker.

Abortion is an issue that seems to be a grey area in terms of right or wrong but even if 99.9999999% of the planet believed it right and that sole person felt it was wrong, does that make that one person wrong? Subjective again, isn't it because you have your own personal opinon that you 'think' is right already.

[Cofey]

the church also brainwashed, it happen to me once.
That was off topic and completely uncalled for, and I find it very offensive. If you don't believe in religion, that's your business. I don't attack your beliefs, so don't attack mine.

[plebben]

Plebben, if the ideals of right and wrong are subjective to that point, then the court system and laws are invalid based on the opinion of the law breaker.

Abortion is an issue that seems to be a grey area in terms of right or wrong but even if 99.9999999% of the planet believed it right and that sole person felt it was wrong, does that make that one person wrong? Subjective again, isn't it because you have your own personal opinon that you 'think' is right already.

Laws are based on our morals not our observations.
We know the earth is round because we can observe it and measure it.
we cant measure if its wrong to kill a person, we can only define it as wrong our of our personal preferences and sypathies as to how we want to be treated.

about the abortion. To that single person its wrong but we were debating about how we define right or wrong. Abstract definition of right and wrong is made by society as whole, the community.
Is it right to kill someone?
No.
But if im a loonie i might think its right in my(to the rest of the society) perverted mind.
But Society dont like it. Therfore its wrong.

The meaning of right and wrong dont have the same meaning when you talk about feelings and observations.
"The earth is round" is a fact that is right, an estimation confirmed as right, iow accurate from what we see and understand.

Its wrong to kill someone has the meaning of it to not be okay, not accepted, not liked, to commit such an action out of moral beliefs.

You cant say "its not okay (wrong)for the earth to be round" because no matter how much you want it to be flat its still round. Its not up to us to decide. But its up to us to decide laws and moral.

[=NukeBlaze=]

^Plebban, you could say diffrent about the world if the definition of flat and round are changed to no longer mean teh same thing. This is the same as morals.


WAR IS PEACE,
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY,
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

A saying from a highschool novel. I suppose that is what you want to sum it up as?

The reason religion exists it is give the rules on what is right and wrong. Now the only problem with religion is that if you believe that God has sent his written word to us, then man has already tampered with it. So, if we assume that part 1 is true, as well as part 2, does that mean the word was ment to be intergrated as a norm or blended, changed and revised untill we find out the best set of morals that makes the most people happy?

And yes, it is the general thoughts of people that define the moral code. If you believe diffrent look at the movies that are rated "PG" comapared to the "R" movie of the 50s. (I believe the rating system wasn;t really established, but the word "Damn" was enough to warrent a adult rating.)

I will tell you what defines right or wrong : Understanding or the lack of.
A simmilar comparision could be Chaos and order, which share the same domain as right and wrong.

Since this conversation will eventually takes us gingerly down the path of religion, reguardless of how much we attempt not to, I weill state my stance on religion. I am a Roman Catholic. I believe in Jesus Christ. I also have my own opinion on how everything in the Bible was laid out, my own adaptations to how and why teaching were made, and find it quite possible that the Bible's stories are nothing more than a set of stories created to help the primitive people a sense of right and wrong and establish bases of laws. I don't really find it earth shattering if the universe was not created in 7 days. How do we define a day? The same way we can define a variable : Any defination we want. I believe that there is a higher power, the stiching of the univserse that has a mysterious resonace to which are best intruments cannnot sort , but I also believe in the gift of free will. We may find the universe in the body, IE understanding its workings by the unification of equations to create a working universal field theory, but will will be able to see its soul? Or will it be the same case as a human, which has the breath of life in thinking yet still cannot be explained,yet we know of the human body's workings?

I believe I will end that statement there before I start braching off and creating more sections of my own belief system with extra detail.

[Viper]

I also believe in the gift of free will.
And the free will to believe in that gift.

[aerofan113]

the church also brainwashed, it happen to me once.

Me too. What if they brainwash all the hot chicks into not wearing clothes?Just a thought.

[plebben]

^Plebban, you could say diffrent about the world if the definition of flat and round are changed to no longer mean teh same thing. This is the same as morals.

How we define it doesnt matter. Its still round even if we wanted to call it round and found out its flat.
The form stays the same.
What you pointed on was communication.
It is not moraly wrong for the earth to be flat or round.
It is accurate to say its round out of our decided definitions.
A society cant make you change your perception of the form of what you see, ie the earth.

its 5:20 in the morning here now so ill have to go to sleep.

[Viper]

It's not 5:20....it's 11:20.

But wait...who's right and who's wrong?


*whistles*

[plebben]

hehe :D
my clock and my body tells me its 5:27(am) in sweden right now.

[=NukeBlaze=]

^ That must mean they run on citrus acid fruits. I suppose a lemon will only get you so far for a reliable clock.

Then again, even if the time zones are correct, the fact that the earth is diffrently shaped curves space time diffrently. So you may very well be 10^-18 seconds behind your neightbor.. Oh no~!

[plebben]

damn... that sucks
better sleep on it :D

[Shotgun Plasma]

That was off topic and completely uncalled for, and I find it very offensive. If you don't believe in religion, that's your business. I don't attack your beliefs, so don't attack mine.


Lord worm said anything about brainwashing, oh by the way, i don't believe in religion, I believe in God.

[aerofan113]

That was off topic and completely uncalled for, and I find it very offensive. If you don't believe in religion, that's your business. I don't attack your beliefs, so don't attack mine.

Thats not uncalled for. Its a matter of opinion. I dont think he was trying to attack your religion, i belive what he was trying to do was state how he felt about it. It wasnt an attack on your religion and i think you need to lighten up about it. Man, tha sounds weird coming from me.

[Lord Worm]

"Abortion is an issue that seems to be a grey area in terms of right or wrong but even if 99.9999999% of the planet believed it right and that sole person felt it was wrong, does that make that one person wrong?"

This is the kind of shit I wanted people to discuss. Not the plausibility of my example.


My answer would have to be: It depends who you are. Since there is no universal scale for right and wrong, you can't measure this kind of thing.

[alpha]

I think all of you need to shush because it's quite simple.



Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all will be raped.

[Shotgun Plasma]

aphla.....watch out for the detour "warning"

[alpha]

If you didn't get the meaning I meant everyone will have different opinions about crap so brainwashing isn't really exactly "brainwashing" just what we grew up with. Meh I never make sense :(

[aerofan113]

does that mean hes getting warned. getting warned sucks.

[Shotgun Plasma]

yeah being warned is being brainwashed, isn't that what ren & stumpy used to be heh heh.

[Cofey]

Lord worm said anything about brainwashing, oh by the way, i don't believe in religion, I believe in God.
That's fine, believe whatever you want, but don't say religion brainwashes people, because I take offence to that.
Thats not uncalled for. Its a matter of opinion. I dont think he was trying to attack your religion, i belive what he was trying to do was state how he felt about it. It wasnt an attack on your religion and i think you need to lighten up about it. Man, tha sounds weird coming from me.
Well I'm sorry but I will not lighten up. I'm quite sure he didn't mean to but he offended me greatly. I just don't understand why religion has to get dragged into so many issues. I'd really appreciate if it wouldn't be discussed in this thread as it has nothing to do with politics, or very little anyway.

[aerofan113]

That's fine, believe whatever you want, but don't say religion brainwashes people, because I take offence to that.

Well I'm sorry but I will not lighten up. I'm quite sure he didn't mean to but he offended me greatly. I just don't understand why religion has to get dragged into so many issues. I'd really appreciate if it wouldn't be discussed in this thread as it has nothing to do with politics, or very little anyway.

I think the reason religion gets dragged into so many discusions is cause ppl drag reliogion into almost anything these days. From scoring a touchdown, to winning a baseball game, to doing well on a reality tv show.

[Shotgun Plasma]

I think the reason religion gets dragged into so many discusions is cause ppl drag reliogion into almost anything these days. From scoring a touchdown, to winning a baseball game, to doing well on a reality tv show.


and don't forget the terrorist

[The Dude]

There is nothing wrong with religion. I'am a religous person. Confermed Cathloic, occasionaly go to church when I can (usually too busy with work and school). I think that religion is a good thing if you know common sense. I dont go around bad mouthing jews, its just stupid to dislike some one because of the religous background, What the world needs is a very heavy does of common sense.

[aerofan113]

and don't forget the terrorist

Ya that too. Religion has a big part in todays world for good and bad purposes.

[plebben]

There is nothing wrong with religion. I'am a religous person. Confermed Cathloic, occasionaly go to church when I can (usually too busy with work and school). I think that religion is a good thing if you know common sense. I dont go around bad mouthing jews, its just stupid to dislike some one because of the religous background, What the world needs is a very heavy does of common sense.
+ rep on that one