DEBATE: Cars - American Muscle vs Japanese Efficiency

[Viper]

Debaters:
Viper - American
MachRider - American
Shotgun Plasma - American
Goku - Japanese
Virtual - Japanese
Dude - Japanese

Topic:
Who makes the better racer?

[Mach]

Let me go ahead and end this debate with a 1 hit KO right here and now:
http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0404_first_chry01_l.jpg

[Viper]

Now that is a way to start.

[Mach]

1!
2!
3!
..................



ding, ding, ding!

[Shotgun Plasma]

I love this car, who can resist it?http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/chevrolet-nova/images/chevrolet-nova-1973a.jpg

[The Dude]

Ok its time to get realistic. No concept cars period. They must be in production, ready to buy right now. I'm not going to use the 2007 Nissan skyline for example. I admit there really is no replacment for displacment for making power. But power is far overrated. A cars overall feel and balance is much more important then a dyno queen. An overweight car set up to understeer is hardly a threat in a wheel to wheel race (think open track like Gran Turismo) Any knuckle head can drive a car in a stright line, even those NASCAR redneck can turn left

I would like to use three cars as an example for my case,one is the 1990-1994 awd DSM cars, for their power for dollar, the other being the Mazda RX-7 and the Honda NSX, as an example of being a near perfectly balanced car. I got to go to class now I'll make the case when I get home

[Viper]

True the ME 4-12 isn't in production yet but it will be.


On to something that is in production.



http://www.midiv.org/PDF/National_points.pdf

Look at all the races that involve both American and Japanese. Which is always leading? American and usually a Vette.






How can een try to deny that this? A Lingenfelter 427 w/twin turbo.


http://www.fast-autos.net/lingenfelter/427tt11.jpg
http://www.fast-autos.net/lingenfelter/427tt10.jpg




A little tech comparison between a Z06 Vette and a 2005 WRX STI

STI:
Curb weight - manual: 3,263lbs
HP - 300hp@6000 rpm, 300ft torque@4000 rpm
0-60 - 4.8
Weight Distribution (F/R) - 58% / 42%

Z06:
Curb Weight - manual: 3,116lbs
HP - 405hp@6000 rpm, 400ft torque@4800 rpm
0-60 - 3.9
Weight distribution (F/R) - 51% / 49%

"Corvette Z06 is one of only a precious few cars to have broken the 8-minute barrier for lap times at Nurburgring. Corvette testing at Nurburgring isn't just about raw speed, as the Z06 provides plenty of that. Engineers gathered important learning on tuning the chassis to enhance the poise, confidence and smoothness of response, attributes that are of great importance under the severe demands of a 14-mile course that has approximately 170 turns and virtually constant elevation changes."


8:06 is the best time I can find for an STi and it was heavily moddified.

[The Dude]

You compareing 2 totally diffrent classes of cars there. You not going to see ZO6 run in WRC. Look up WRC racing stats and see how Subaru and Mitsubishi hand Dodge (srt-4) their asses year after year. I think an R34 Skyline or MK IV Supra is a better comparison then the STI. BTW a twin turbo kit is insanly expensive to put on an n/a car. So unless your rich I think I will take the 35k price tag of the Evo MR and get close to Lambo preformance. I dont doubt that the Z06 is an amazing car ( I know it is, I have been in one) But for the average person its just way to expensive. Bang for Buck the Japense cars give you much better preformance per dollar then any american car. Why dont we compare cars that are in the same price range? Such as best car for 20k?, 30k? 40?k 50k?

[goku2057]

Okay, before I even start, you have to realize something. If money isn't an option, American muscle will win evertime, as there truely is no replacement for displacement.

Instead I point to overall value. Look at the Corvette. Sure, it's an excellent car, but for $50,000 you can buy, and heavily mod a Japanese car that will run circles around that stock Corvette.

[Mach]

Okay, well when I think of the question: Who makes the better racer?, I think it clearly means which country's got the best "track record" (pardon the pun) for racers in terms of power, speed, styling, and handling. And there's no doubt that America owns each of those categories. Yeah, sure we can give Japan some props when it comes to budget rice burners, hip accessories, and economy...but those pros pale in comparison to American muscle's pros.

Now with that said I introduce the ultimate American badass of cars...Ladies and gentlemen, the fastest Viper in the world...

SVSi Stryker Twin-Turbo Viper
http://www.fast-autos.net/svs/stryker.jpg


General Information
Price: $133,000
Miles Per Gallon: --/-- mpg
Curb Weight: 3400 lbs
Layout: Front-Engine/RWD
Transmission: 6-Speed Manual
Engine
Type: Twin-Turbo V10
Displacement: 7990 cc
Horsepower: 1100 bhp @ ---- rpm
Torque: 1300 lb-ft @ ---- rpm
Redline: 6000 rpm
Performance
0-60 mph: 2.7 sec
0-100 mph: 6.0 sec
Quarter Mile: est 9.5 sec @ 150 mph
Top Speed: 247 mph


'nuf said...lol.

[goku2057]

I see you ripped that RIGHT off of fast-autos.net as well!

Here we go my slow witted compadre!


I give you the 2001 Jun Akira Supra.

1200 WHP with a top speed of ... 249 mph.

[Mach]

No way a lil rice burner could keep up with the Stryker Viper no matter how souped up and modded the lil buggy is...It'd probably just blow up or go out of control trying to keep pace with a Viper beast.

[goku2057]

Or, how about the HKS Racig 180SX?


Type: Twin-Turbo Inline-6
Displacement: 2772 cc
Horsepower: 1100 bhp @ 9000 rpm
Torque: 759 lb-ft @ 6500 rpm
Redline: ---- rpm
0-60 mph: 1.2 sec
0-100 mph: 2.54 sec
Quarter Mile: 7.72 sec @ 176 mph


Either of these cars would hand that Viper it's ass.

[The Dude]

you guys are compreing only engine size. I want to see cars with similar price tags go head to head

[Viper]

Dude, I could spend $1,000.00 and make a lawnmower do 60 mph.

On a price per mile per hour....I win. BTW, it's a John Deere, good ol' American Lawn Power.



Try this.

Since you provided no links, technically neither did I, check out this Vette.


http://www.weckmanperformance.com/
Quickest street legal vehicle in the world.

7 in the 1/4
18lbs of boost
No nitrous
Street tires
Using mufflers.
1500 hp




However, if you want pure top end, a Vette is also the fastest street legal vehicle in the world.

The sledgehammer
http://www.supercars.net/cars/1988@$Chevrolet%20Callaway@$Sledgehammer%20Corvett ex.html

880 hp
0-60 - 3.9 (still damn fast off the line)
Top speed - 254 mph and still world record. (till the ME 4-12 tops it)

[The Dude]

stop pussy footing around. lets set a price tag and find the best car each side has to offer. Must be a stcok car in production. Set price at 30k MAX. GO!

I pick the Nissan 350Z Enthusias Coupe, price is 28,45

You get 287 HP, 274lbs of tourque a limited slip differential, Brembo Breaks.

Weight distribustion 53/47

0-60 in 5.9 seconds

1/4 mile time 14.1 @ 99.1 mph

Slalom 70.3 mph (700ft)

Skidpad .89 (200ft)

60-0 braking 119 ft

[Viper]

Why 30k? Let's make it 40K or maybe 10K. You can't just set an arbitrary price tag because at 30k, the Jap car may be faster but for 10K more, the American is or for 5K less the American car is.

That's not pussyfooting, that's putting under the hood what gets the job done.

Like I said, I can take a lawnmower and make it do 60 for less than a grand. Price per mile per hour, that owns jap cars by a long shot.


2002 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe 405 hp
$21,725



Now for modding to get to 30K

Corvette Turbo kit
Twin 46mm T3/T4 Garrett Turbochargers (rated to 800 rwhp)
Twin 38mm Tial Billet Aluminum Wastegates
Eight (8) 42# Fuel Injectors
Mass Air Meter Calibrated to Injectors (year dependent)
Fuel System Upgrade
Twin Custom-Built Carbon Fiber Turbo-Intercooler Tubes
Custom Built Carbon Fiber Intercooler-Throttle Body Tube
Twin Polished Billet Aluminum Blow Off Valves
LS1 Edit Computer Reprogramming
CNC Mandrel Bent, Tig-welded Jet Hot "Sterling" Ceramic Coated Tubular Exhaust Headers
CNC Mandrel Bent, Tig-Welded Jet Hot "Sterling" Ceramic Coated Header-Turbo Tubing
CNC Mandrel Bent, Tig-Welded Jet Hot "Sterling" Ceramic Coated Intercooler Tubing
CNC Mandrel Bent, Tig-Welded Jet Hot "Sterling" Ceramic Coated Downpipes
Custom-Built Tig-Welded Aluminum 3-row, Dual Inlet, Single Outlet Intercooler
Battery Relocation Kit
Twin Stainless Steel Braided Turbo Oil Supply Lines
Twin Stainless Steel Braided Turbo Oil Drain Lines
3-ply Silicone Couplings and Transition Hoses
Custom Inconel and Kevlar Heat Shielding
Stainless Steel V-band Clamps
Stainless Steel T-bolt Clamps

Stage III Twin 67mm Turbos (rated to 1,200 rwhp)
Stage III Fuel System Upgrade (Injectors, Fuel Pumps, Engine Management System
Stage III Exhaust System
Stage III Clutch Package or Torque Converter

$8495



Total Price = $30220

[The Dude]

Show me an American car Produced this year, that you can buy new at the dealership that can at least match what the 350z does for under 30k. Why 30k? because that is what the average person spends on a sports car.

Now let me list the specs of EVO RS $26,799 tag.

0-60 in 4.8 seconds

1/4 mile in 13.3 seconds @ 101.mph

skidpad .95g (200ft)

Slalom: n/a couldnt find data

60-0 braking in 114 ft


Why can't American car manurfactures make affordable super cars like the Japenese? Viper all you have is overpriced exotics like a viper and vette that the average person will not be able to afford. I havent used any of Japan's exotic super cars like the 550hp Tommy Karia ZZII (yes it was a production car)

http://www.fast-autos.net/tommykaira/zztwo.jpg
http://www.fast-autos.net/tommykaira/zztwo6.jpg

[Viper]

New, old, 26k, 21k, 45k.....which crosses the finish line first? Isn't that the point?

I have never in my life been to a race that barred a vehicle because it cost more than the average sports car price.

So this is 3k over the magic 30K number

http://www.modernracer.com/fordmustangsvtcobra.html

Top speed : 155 mph(electronically limited)
0-60 mph : 4.7 sec.
0-¼ mile : 12.7 sec @ 110.1 mph
60-0 braking distance : 116 ft



That is still blown out of the water by American muscle by the Vector.

[The Dude]

The Nissan R390 GT1

Curb weight is just 2,420lbs

mid engine RWD

549 HP and 470lbs of torque

http://www.supercarstats.com/car/exotic-stats/nissan_r390.shtml

Were are the American Exotics?

[The Dude]

Whats the matter? You can't find an American sports car that can match what the EVO RS and 350Z can do? A price cap is important because money does not grow on trees. If you want to talk about cars without a price cap thats fine, I already listed 2 cars that make more power then both the Z06 and Vette and they both weigh under 2,500 lbs.

[Viper]

0 - 60 mph.

2.7 - 2000 Dodge Hennessey Viper Venom 800TT

2.9 - 1997 Callaway C7 Corvette

3.3 - Vector WX3 (see attachement 4)

2001 Saleen S7 (see attachment 2)


Attachment 3 is Import top 0-60 times (no exotics 100k cap limit)

Attachment 1 is Domestic top 0-60 times (no exotics 100k cap limit)


EDIT: Alphabetical order goofed up my display order.

[The Dude]

0 - 60 mph.

2.7 - 2000 Dodge Hennessey Viper Venom 800TT

2.9 - 1997 Callaway C7 Corvette

3.3 - Vector WX3 (see attachement 4)

2001 Saleen S7 (see attachment 2)


Attachment 3 is Import top 0-60 times (no exotics 100k cap limit)

Attachment 1 is Domestic top 0-60 times (no exotics 100k cap limit)


EDIT: Alphabetical order goofed up my display order.

Please take note that the Tommy Karia ZZII and the Nissan R390 GT1(100k on the dot beeotch!) are not unlisted.

[Viper]

Please take note that they are 3 times your own personal cap limit.

[The Dude]

Please take note that they are 3 times your own personal cap limit.


oops.. slight ove sight by me. LOL

With the ZZII and the Nissan I was pointing out that with no price cap (like you asked) the Japenese cars are right up there with the Ford GT and the Saleen S7.

Kinda off topic but Project Talon will run low 13's in the spring, total cost will be less then 10k. My car's 6,000 price tag is included in that too. That would be running neck and neck with you beloved Vette

[Viper]

Notice the Saleen, Vector, Hennessey and Calloway aren't listed either.

Check this list of Worlds faster 0-60. Note that there are very few Japanese cars


2.6 - 1994 Dauer 962 LeMans
2.7 - 2000 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 Concept
2.7 - 2000 Dodge Hennessey Viper Venom 800TT
2.7 - 1999 Leblanc Caroline
2.7 - 1993 Dauer 962 Le Mans
2.8 - 1996 Renault Espace F1
2.9 - 1991 Audi Avus Quattro
2.9 - 1997 Callaway C7 Corvette
2.9 - 1997 Dodge Viper GTS-R
3.0 - 2003 Bugatti 16/4 Veyron
3.1 - 1995 Ford GT-90
3.1 - 1993 Jaguar XJR-15
3.1 - 1998 Koenigsegg CC
3.1 - 1991 Lotec C1000
3.1 - 1991 McLaren F1
3.1 - 1995 Yamaha OX99-11
3.2 - 2002 Koenigsegg CC 8S
3.2 - 1992 Bugatti EB110 SS
3.2 - 1996 Quadraduce
3.3 - 1997 McLaren F1
3.3 - 2001 Saleen S7
3.3 - 1987 Vector Avtech WX3
3.4 - 1992 Bugatti EB110 GT
3.4 - 1985 Koenig Competition Evolution
3.4 - 1994 Schuppan 962CR
3.4 - 1987 Westfield SEI
3.4 - 1997 Dodge Viper Venom 600 GTS
3.5 - 2002 Pagani Zonda C12-S 7.3
3.5 - 2002 FERRARI ENZO
3.6 - 2002 Lamborghini Murciélago
3.6 - 2003 Ferrari Enzo
3.6 - 2001 Lamborghini Diablo
3.6 - 1997 Porsche 911 GT1
3.6 - 1987 Porsche 959
3.6 - 1997 RUF Porsche CTR-2
3.7 - 1991 BMW Nazca C2
3.7 - 1996 Ferrari F 50
3.7 - 1994 Lamborghini Diablo SE30 Jota
3.7 - 1996 Porsche 911 GT2
3.8 - 2003 Dodge Viper SRT-10
3.8 - 2000 Porsche 911 Turbo
3.8 - 1997 Campagna T-Rex
3.8 - 1992 Jaguar XJ220
3.8 - 1996 Lamborghini Diablo SV
3.8 - 1998 Lotus GT1
3.8 - 1994 Ultima Spyder
3.9 - 2001 B. Engineering Edonis
3.9 - 2003 Viper SRT/10
3.9 - 1987 Ferrari F 40
4.0 - 2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
4.0 - 2000 Dodge Viper ACR Coupe
4.0 - 2001 Porsche Carrera GT
4.0 - 2003 Porsche 911 GT2
4.0 - 1993 Lamborghini Diablo SE30



Oh and the Vette is running in the low 12's and that Vette I showed for 30K with over 1100hp would dip into the 9's.

[goku2057]

How bout this Viper, a Honda Civic,.

I give you the Red Devil. It is a highly modded Civic SI that comes with a $20,000 price tag.

1996 HASPORT HONDA CIVIC
Chassic Code : EK
Engine Code: K20A2
Type: Inline four, aluminum block and aluminum head
Horsepower : 365 hp @ 7900 rpm
(low boost), 455 hp @ 6900
rpm (high boost)
Torque : 280 lb-ft @ 5000 rpm (low
boost), 378 lb-ft @ 5700 rpm
(high boost)
Layout: Front engine, front-wheel drive
Front: Fastbrakes 11-in. brake kit with Wilwood Dynalite calipers, Polymatrix Q pads
Rear Fastbrakes drum-to-disc conversion with 10.9-in. rotors
Wheels: Axis MagLite 17x7 in. 40mm offset
Tires 205/40ZR-17 Toyo Proxes RA-1
0-30 mph: 2.6 sec.
0-60 mph: 5.3 sec.
Quarter-Mile Time: 13.0 sec. @ 117 mph
Quarter-Mile Speed: 92 mph
Slalom Speed (700-ft. Slalom): 71.5 mph
Lateral Grip (200-ft. Skidpad): 0.88g.
60-0 Stopping Distance: 1.02 g





"And here is what a popular Magazine said abou tthis car. " With power-to-weight that betters a Ferrari Enzo, this kind of high-speed acceleration is reserved for few vehicles on Earth... Looking at numbers alone, the Hasport Civic could run with a Z06 Corvette, losing a little off the line, beating it on the top end, and generating better handling numbers. The ingredients are all there for total and global hot hatch supremacy, and have provided us just the kind of Special K inspiration we need for Project Civic. Is this a car we could drive every day? No."

-------------------------------

Not much can give you that kind of performance for only 20k.


EDIT: Viper, I have a list that seems to vary from that.

http://www.fast-autos.net/0to60.html

[The Dude]

I know I cant make the argument for jap cars in stright line preformance, so I wont even try. There is so much more to a car then 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Today's market place if you want an affordable sports car you go Japenese. If you have enough money for a vette or a viper (and chances are you won't) of course they are going to be better cars. If you want to throw around Concept cars, and one of a kind makes, the American cars will win everytime. Simpily because a large displacment engine will have more potential then a smaller one. Dollar for dollar the Jap cars will win if your on a budget

[Viper]

2004 DODGE SRT-4 EXTREME LIGHTWEIGHT


Performance
Acceleration Lightweight Stock
Quarter-Mile Time: 12.5 sec. 14.0 sec.
Quarter-Mile Speed: 119.2 mph 101.6 mph
0-30 mph: 2.2 sec. 2.7 sec
0-60 mph: 4.7 sec. 6.0 sec.
0-100 mph: 9.6 sec. 14.1 sec
Handling
Slalom Speed (700-ft. slalom): 1.01g .87g
Lateral Grip (200-ft. skidpad): 74.9 mph 71.7 mph
Lap time: 1:30.35 1:36.45
Braking
60-0 stopping distance: 109 ft. 116 ft.
70-0 stopping distance: 149 ft. 156 ft.
80-0 stopping distance: 192 ft. 204 ft.


Dude, this isn't about budget....it's about who crosses that finish line first. Do you think crying about only having a 26k car will get you anything if you lose against a faster car? If you win, great. If you lose, make it faster.


I have another Vette for you....1200HP


http://www.lateral-g.org/distad/
Check out his video.

[The Dude]

Viper anyone with enough money can make build a tuner car. The SRT-4 light weight is a special car designed by Dodge the car has carbon fiber doors hood, trunk and gutted interior. It is an awesome car despite being fwd. I was reading about it in the new issure of Sport Compact Car. Now Im going to bring out my tuner's car. The Sparco Lancer Evolution. Other then cams and a stroner head gasket the bottom end is completely stock.


0-60 in 3.7 seconds
1/4 11.9 seoonds @ 118 mph
Latteral grip 1.05g


http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0406scc_evo11/index.html


your kidding yourself if you think money is not a factor

[Viper]

Dude, you are putting this nice cap figure that fits right into 'your' budget that happens to fit nicely with a good Jap sports car. The problem is the figure is arbitrary.

Besides, I showed you a 30k American sports car that had better figures than the one you displayed.

[The Dude]

you showed me a 33k car....I put a cap on it because money does not grow on trees. If you were to go out on a hot summer night you would see cars like the camero, mustang, GTO's evo, 350z, srt-4 and other cars that are around 30k. You dont see Z06's and Viper RT-10's very ofton let alone a modded one. Usually some old guy that babies it. I'm just saying that the average person does not spend that much on a sports car. Why do you think the best selling convertables are the Chrysler Seabring and the Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder or v6, mustangs and cameros? Because they are cheap. And dollar for dollar the Japensec cars will give you more preformance for dollar until you start to reach the higher price tags.

I knew coming into this debate you would try and use the massive engine size of the American muscle car to your advantage, well I'm using something more important then engine size and thats wallet size.

[goku2057]

I tried to say that on my first post. When I originally thought up this debate, I envisioned arguing over which car was the better value, as if you have the $$$ American Cars own Japanese ones. But, if you are like nearly all of the people out there, you can't afford Corvettes and Vipers and the like, you have to settle with the EVO's and STi's.

[Viper]

Or that 1200 hp 30K Vette I showed you.

Take that 30k EVO or 30k STi against a 1200 hp 30K and there is not contest. 350 hp will not top 1200 hp unless the Vette driver is comatose.


Where is everyone else?

[The Dude]

Or that 1200 hp 30K Vette I showed you.

Take that 30k EVO or 30k STi against a 1200 hp 30K and there is not contest. 350 hp will not top 1200 hp unless the Vette driver is comatose.


Where is everyone else?


Sorry Viper, but in 2002 a Corvette did not cost 21k it cost around 41k. And thats not even Z06 model.

http://www.new-cars.com/2002/chevrolet/chevrolet-corvette.html

[Viper]

But in 2004 it does cost 21k.


Why buy a new car for more when you can buy a used car for less that gets a butt load mor epower?

You want to go the budget route, we'll go budget.

Let me tell you something....buying new ain't budget.

[The Dude]

Or that 1200 hp 30K Vette I showed you.

Take that 30k EVO or 30k STi against a 1200 hp 30K and there is not contest. 350 hp will not top 1200 hp unless the Vette driver is comatose.


Where is everyone else?


Sorry Viper, but in 2002 a Corvette did not cost 21k it cost around 41k. And thats not even Z06 model.

http://www.new-cars.com/2002/chevrolet/chevrolet-corvette.html

Even a used one with 24000 miles (figure 12000 a year on average) a used base model Vette is above 30k. And lets not bring up insurence.

Gee there's no racing like bench racing.

[Viper]

Now you have me trying to find that Vette again.

Found a 2003 Z06 for 17k. Just needs some fixing for a few grand (21k or so) then ad kit.


Since you claim people have 30k for their car, I checked for the best selling car and the Honda Accord came back and MSRP is $16,195. Looks like your 30k is out of the average pocket as well.


Shouldn't we be trying to get the fastest car at 16k then?

[Mach]

Last time I checked the question of this debate was not "Which country offers the best bargain sports car?". No, it says "Who makes the better racer?" That's the question here. Didn't see a damn thing about price. So with that said there's no question that the American Badass Viper/Vette teams owns the ricers hands down as the genuine best racers. They've won more races than any of those ricers. They're faster, sexier, better handling, and more powerful than any of those lil' 4 cylinders on steroids Japan can send at the US.

Face it, when it comes to sports cars, Japan needs to stick to what it does best--the car games.

[The Dude]

They've won more races than any of those ricers. They're faster, sexier, better handling, and more powerful than any of those lil' 4 cylinders on steroids Japan can send at the US.

Face it, when it comes to sports cars, Japan needs to stick to what it does best--the car games.

Ok lets take a look at what cars dominate WRC racing, the American cars are sure as hell not.

1992 Carlos Sainz ESP (Toyota) Lancia
1993 Juha Kankkunen FIN (Toyota) Toyota
1994 Didier Auriol FRA (Toyota) Toyota
1995 Colin McRae GBR (Subaru) Subaru
1996 Tommi Makinen FIN (Mitsubishi) Subaru
1997 Tommi Makinen FIN (Mitsubishi) Subaru
1998 Tommi Makinen FIN (Mitsubishi) Mitsubishi
1999 Tommi Makinen FIN (Mitsubishi) Toyota
2000 Marcus Gronholm FIN (Peugeot) Peugot
2001 Richard Burns GBR (Subaru) Peugot
2002 Marcus Grönholm FIN (Peugeot 206 WRC) 77 Peugot

And I have not brought out the Supra and Skyline yet. Nothing is hotter then a MKIV Supra.
http://www.garagedynamics.com/marcus/98supra/supra3.JPG

Unless its a Skyline GT-R
http://members.lycos.nl/jordan55/skylineGTR_800.jpg

[Viper]

WRC OVERALL STANDINGS


Manufacturers
1. CITROËN 178 Pts
2. FORD 127 Pts
3. SUBARU 108 Pts
4. PEUGEOT 85 Pts
5. MITSUBISHI 17 Pts


http://www.wrc.com/Home.aspx?lang=en_GB&flash=False

[The Dude]

WRC OVERALL STANDINGS


Manufacturers
1. CITROËN 178 Pts
2. FORD 127 Pts
3. SUBARU 108 Pts
4. PEUGEOT 85 Pts
5. MITSUBISHI 17 Pts


http://www.wrc.com/Home.aspx?lang=en_GB&flash=False


WOW finaly after a decade of WRC racing an American car is in 2nd place! Too bad the French are owning them.Subaru lost both their drivers last season after their car rolled over a cliff, and Mitsu is in financial trouble this year. Its not a vary good year for them.

Viper you know those standing are just for this year..right?

[Viper]

Europe is out of this debate (or it would really get heated and [lightbulb].....hehe, maybe we'll do that one later) so as of right now, Americans are leading the Japanese even in Rally racing and isn't that Japans strong point?

[The Dude]

Americans are leading the Japanese even in Rally racing and isn't that Japans strong point?


So according to your logic, a single year in 2nd place, is better then a 4 year winning dynasty? We also have you beat in the best car under 30k, the only thing you have going for the american cars is the perks that come along with engine displacment. I guess some people are happy drving in stright lines *yawn*

[Viper]

4 year winning dynasty? Not according to WRC.


2001


1. Peugeot 0 0 4 16 0 0 0 6 13 5 16 16 14 16 106 Pts
2. Ford 6 8 6 2 14 14 10 0 6 10 7 0 3 0 86 Pts
3. Mitsubishi 13 10 10 7 4 3 6 13 0 0 1 0 2 0 69 Pts
4. Subaru 0 4 3 1 8 6 6 0 7 11 2 7 7 4 66 Pts
5. Skoda 5 1 0 0 0 1 4 4 0 0 0 2 17 Pts
6. Hyundai 2 3 3 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 4 17 Pts
7. Citroën 0 0 0 0 0 Pts


2002



1. Peugeot 4 16 16 16 16 0 9 6 16 16 16 16 16 2 165 Pts
2. Ford 10 6 4 5 2 14 14 14 5 7 5 3 5 10 104 Pts
3. Subaru 12 0 4 4 7 6 2 0 5 2 4 4 4 13 67 Pts
4. Hyundai 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 2 0 0 0 3 0 1 10 Pts
5. Skoda 0 0 0 0 0 5 0 3 0 0 0 0 1 0 9 Pts
6. Mitsubishi 0 3 2 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 9 Pts



2003


1. Citroën 18 6 15 5 8 10 11 15 9 13 15 12 10 13 160 Pts
2. Peugeot 6 16 9 18 16 8 8 14 6 9 11 8 13 3 145 Pts
3. Subaru 0 11 2 9 5 10 10 2 11 14 2 12 5 16 109 Pts
4. Ford 10 5 10 1 3 10 4 7 10 1 10 7 11 4 93 Pts
5. Skoda 2 1 3 6 7 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 2 23 Pts
6. Hyundai 3 0 0 0 0 0 3 1 3 2 12 Pts


2004


1. Citroën 10 14 6 8 16 11 15 18 11 16 12 13 14 14 178 Pts
2. Ford 14 8 18 7 8 5 5 6 12 13 6 10 5 10 127 Pts
3. Subaru 2 8 9 12 9 10 9 5 3 12 12 10 7 108 Pts
4. Peugeot 9 8 4 12 0 6 8 4 10 4 8 3 4 5 85 Pts
5. Mitsubishi 3 0 2 0 0 4 2 3 3 17 Pts


Japan has only lead ahead of America once in the past 4 years.

[The Dude]

Not according to my source, Mitsu owned from 96-99. So when was the last time an American team got 1st place in WRC? Huh? whats that? 1979 thats when!

http://sportsfacts.net/history/rallying/world_rally_championship/world_rally_championship_winners.html

[Viper]

I have the official World Rally Championship site as the source.


http://www.wrc.com/Results/Standings.asp?lang=en_GB&flash=False

[The Dude]

Viper thats just this year! Thats hardly as impressive. Considering that an American team has won once in the last 30 years. Are you blind? Look at how many championships they have won! ONE! Thats it! In fuggin 1979!

[Viper]

Drop down box....check it. Goes back to 2001, just like I posted.


30 years ago is 30 years ago. Whos is leading between the Japanese and the Americans right now?

[Mach]

So we still got em in WRC....But even so, who cares about WRC? I know I and the majority of Americans dont.

I'll take LeMans anyday over that.


Again, dude you keep bringing up the 30K argument...this debate IS NOT about the better bargain...Price is not mentioned once in the question. If you want to debate who makes the best priced cars then that'd be for another debate. It's simply about the pure better racer.

[The Dude]

So we still got em in WRC....But even so, who cares about WRC? I know I and the majority of Americans dont.

I'll take LeMans anyday over that.


Again, dude you keep bringing up the 30K argument...this debate IS NOT about the better bargain...Price is not mentioned once in the question. If you want to debate who makes the best priced cars then that'd be for another debate. It's simply about the pure better racer.


No, you dont have us in WRC racing am American team has never won a title in the last 30 years. How does that make you guys have advantage? In the last few years it has all been about French rally cars, but that does not over shadow the domination the Japenese cars had for the last decade.

And for the 30k price argument. The real hart and soul of racing is the backyard mechanic tuning cars he bought from the dealership. Taking them out to the drag strip, auto x, or open track session. Pro racing is such a small part of racing compared to your backyard mechanics. Pro racing usually dominated by the exoctic European cars such as Ferrari. Why do you think it was such a big deal when Ford finally got a Lemans victory with the original Ford GT? No body could beat Ferrari at that time.

You want Le Man's Winners? Here you go. Yeah you guys totaly dominated :rolleyes:



http://www.motorsportsetc.com/champs/le_mans.htm

[Virtual]

Hmmmm....good debate guys, sorry I'm late.

When I signed up, I thought it was about debating between better cars, not pure racing.

But as far the racing aspect goes, I will put my two cents into this debate.

You know, I think racing has evolved and is more than just pure speed and the size of your engines. Racing is dependent upon a number of variables. Japanese race cars are not only built for speed, but agility and turning. It all depends upon what type of racing you are doing.

There's nothing better than pulling up in a Skyline, Eclipse, or Supra with underbody lights, vinyl, and the system pounding. Where the light shines off the fresh paint job and decals, interior with a lit-up dash, and a computer system monitoring the NOS level. Your steering wheel, with two buttons that read NOS on it. And the shine of the spoiler on the back and freshly polished chrome rims below. Your car with a large tail pipe out the back, and the sound of the engine revving. This is your car. Well, for street racing at least.

This is the kind of style Japanese racers use, and if you've ever played Need for Speed Underground, or watched the Fast and the Furious, you know what I am talking about.

But pure racing, I am not so sure about. You could argue forever about which kind of cars run the fastest on the drag strip. If you are talking about a circuit race, I am rather sure Japanese racers will win every time. Why? - they have the mechanics behind them to perform very well on circuit tracks, although I'm sure it's debatable.

The fact of the matter is, people have budgets, and Japanese racers offer more for your money. It's very easy to find parts, turbos, exhausts, and other accessories for Japanese racers too.

[Viper]

Backyard mechanics don't buy new cars to start with so 30K is irrelevant.

An American production car has a better time at Nurburgring than any unmoddified Japanese production car.

[The Dude]

Backyard mechanics don't buy new cars to start with so 30K is irrelevant.

An American production car has a better time at Nurburgring than any unmoddified Japanese production car.

Unmodified being the keyworld. You know Mazda's Rotary Cars are forced to run with cars double their displacement so the other cars have a fighting chance? You know that many pro curcits banned Nissan from using the ETTESA awd system because of how dominate they were? ( same as audi's quattro system)


I'm just saying 30k is what the average price is that most people are to spend when buuying new sports car. Look at me I spent 6k, and have the identical engine 4g63 engine as the EVO I-III :roll:

[goku2057]

Dare I say, OWNED!?