Blue States Want Reds to Secede?

[Mach]

ROFLOL, It appears that many in the more liberal blue states are throwing around the idea of wanting the red states that voted for Bush and won the election ought to secede from the United States and form their own country. Many proponents of this idea say that the red states do not represent America's values and that they are holding the nation back. They cite the claim that more people are supposedly on welfare in the red states and are taking more money from the government than giving back. Meanwhile they say the blue states house many wealthy people that keep the country's economy alive. LOL, isn't that against their whole stance?! Aren't they the ones that label the Republicans the rich and the anti-welfare people? But yet here they're bashing those same Republican states for the exact opposite.
How immature and pathetic can ya get! Read on...

Blue states buzz over secession
http://kenlayne.com/new_map.jpg
By Joseph Curl
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Secession, which didn't work very well when it was tried once before, is suddenly red hot in the blue states. In certain precincts, anyway.
One popular map circulating on the Internet shows the 19 blue states won by Sen. John Kerry — Washington, Oregon, California, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Maryland and the Northeastern states — conjoined with Canada to form the "United States of Canada." The 31 red states carried by Mr. Bush are depicted as a separate nation dubbed "Jesusland."
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The idea isn't just a joke; one top Democrat says, "The segment of the country that pays for the federal government is now being governed by the people who don't pay for the federal government."
"Some would say, 'Oh, poor Alabama. It's cut off from the wealth infusion that it gets from New York and California,' " said Lawrence O'Donnell, a veteran Democratic insider and now senior political analyst at MSNBC. "But the more this political condition goes on at the presidential level of the red and blue states, the more you're testing the inclination of the blue states to say, 'So what?' "
Mr. O'Donnell raised the subject of secession on "The McLaughlin Group" during the weekend. "Ninety percent of the red states are welfare-client states of the federal government," said Mr. O'Donnell, who was an aide to Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, New York Democrat.
In a telephone interview, Mr. O'Donnell said the red states that went to Mr. Bush "collect more from the federal government than they send in. New York and California, Connecticut — the states that are blue are all the states that are paying for the bulk of everything this government does, from ... Social Security to everything else, and the people in those states don't like what this government is doing."
The Internet has exploded with talk of a blue-state confederacy, including one screed circulating by e-mail that features a map of a new country called "American Coastopia" and proposes lopping off the Northeast, the West Coast and the upper Midwest to form a new country, away from the "rednecks in Oklahoma" and the "homophobic knuckle-draggers in Wyoming."
"We were all going to move to various other countries, but then we thought — why should WE move?" the anonymous message asks. "We hold our noses as we fly over you. We are sickened by the way you treat people that are different from you. The rest of the world despises America, and we don't want to be lumped in with you anymore."
The secession movement has already spawned commercial opportunism. One Web site is selling T-shirts that read "I seceded."
No one at the White House would comment on the calls for secession, but one top Republican official with ties to the Bush administration said the recent talk is not surprising, coming off an election in which the president received more than 59 million votes — the most in history.
"If we were that far out of the mainstream, maybe we'd be pushing the creation of our own country," the official said. "Then we might have a chance of ever winning an election again."
But Andy Nowicki, a libertarian blogger, said the blue states will never secede because "liberals don't want to leave their enemies alone. Instead, as their track record shows, they want to take over the government in order to force their enemies to endure perpetual sensitivity training for being such racist, sexist, homophobic, 'closed-minded' boors, i.e., for disagreeing with them."
The emergence of a solidly Republican South prompted longtime Democratic activist Bob Beckel to advocate Southern independence the morning after Election Day.
"I think now that slavery is taken care of, I'm for letting the South form its own nation. Really, I think they ought to have their own confederacy," Mr. Beckel said on the "Fox and Friends" program.
While secession is often thought to be a Southern phenomenon, Northern leaders repeatedly threatened secession in the 19th century, in protest of such provocations as the War of 1812, as well as the admission of Louisiana and Texas to the Union. In 1803, Massachusetts Sen. Timothy Pickering proposed "a new confederacy," naming the New England states members along with New York ("the center of the confederacy").
In 1839, former President John Quincy Adams defended the right of secession in a speech in New York, saying, "Far better will it be ... to part in friendship with each other than to be held together by constraint."
But according to Slate.com — another liberal Web site that has explored the topic of secession — there are no provisions in U.S. law for a state or states to opt out of the Union, citing such authorities as Bruce Ackerman of Yale Law School and Lawrence Tribe of Harvard Law School who say that since Appomattox "scholars have agreed that the Constitution grants no right of secession."
While legal scholars say states cannot leave the Union, nothing stops individuals. Before the 2000 election, actor Alec Baldwin was one of several Hollywood figures who threatened to leave the country if Mr. Bush was elected — but didn't.
"Unfortunately, there were no such pronouncements this time around," said Martin Grove, a columnist for HollywoodReporter.com, "perhaps because the last time around, when push came to shove, all of these people decided maybe they were in the best place they could possibly be to begin with."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041109-122753-5113r.htm

[The Dude]

Boy they just don't give up do they? It's never a liberals fault, it's aways someone elses.

[Blaksmoke]

I'm not even going to read it. I can look at the picture and save time.

[HereticPB]

What part of Majority of the vote don't they get? Problem here is that many Democrats did vote for Bush as well as more Republicans than in 2000.

So let me get this straight those states that voted for Kerry are going to beg, plead to Canada to let them join to be part of Canada. The states that are tied to American Government Money, American Taxes, and American Economy won't join Canada. This is ridiculous.

The left is self-destructing and it is hilarious!
The left is self-destructing and it is hilarious!
The left is self-destructing and it is hilarious!

[Cofey]

What bullshit. Well, I didn't bother reading the whole thing, but do you really believe this? If there really is anybody who wants them to secede it's probably just a few extreme left crybaby dickheads who make up <1% of the liberal population.
Of all the ridiculous shit to come out of this election...I was really hoping we'd heard the end of all of the shit like this now that the election is over.

[Lord Worm]

Canada doesn't want you. Ask Mexico.

Edit: At least California would be right at home.

[Colin™]

I'm down for a civil war. Haven't had one of those in awhile, and I get to express my constitiutional amendments of forming a militia and owning a rifle!

[Bryan]

If we can't go on together, we won't be successful apart.

Hahahaha.. very nice picture though. Of course, I don't want anything more to do with the Canadians than the Canadians want to do with me. We'd just be headaches for eachother, and we'd have just as many (if not more) problems. This is one reason why I'm not going to move to Canada. I've said it before, and I'll say it many times more: It's only four years.

People get way too stressed over this stuff. Sure, it sucks for us, but it isn't like we're going to be shot in the streets for being liberal. Get a grip, everyone, please.

Oh but we'll kick Ohio's ass. AGAIN.

[plebben]

Who is "many"?
youre qouting something so it is not your words mach but you said in the other thread you dont generalize. How is this not generalizing, claiming many liberals want to be part of a united states of canada?
You can always say you didnt mean the majority of liberals, but that is still what your post implies...

[Bryan]

I've learned to interpret many to mean few when Mach says it. Don't worry about it, it is.. as someone said, less than 1% of the liberal population who thought it'd be cool.

Hey.. not to get too far off subject or anything.. but I bet Indiana doesn't have a fucking military. We'd walk all over them too. And Iowa? Don't make me laugh!

[Lord Worm]

Actually, I must say that there's a lot of disrespect comming out of this election. The vote was split again. People are angry again. Things never get like this in Canada. There are split votes all the time but we never get all violent about it. Calm the fuck down. You're still Americans, Democrats and Republicans alike. You still share most of the same beliefs.

Extreme Liberals, stop trying to split from America. Republicans, stop trying to encourage the Liberals to move to Canada. This shit is ridiculous and its exceeding the boundries of healthy debate.

[Mach]

Who is "many"?
youre qouting something so it is not your words mach but you said in the other thread you dont generalize. How is this not generalizing, claiming many liberals want to be part of a united states of canada?
You can always say you didnt mean the majority of liberals, but that is still what your post implies...
Are you serious?

Are you really serious?
For the love of all that is good and decent! LMAO! Now he's trying to analyze the word many and make an assumption off of that! When will it end? :lol:

Of course my posts will always imply to you however you wish to twist things around.

[Bryan]

Oh now you could have taken that better, Mach.

Kentucky could be tough, but with the Michigan Militia and our army of cheap American vehicles, we can get through them. That's when Pennsylvania and New York can start to help us as Illinois pushes into Missouri..

[Travis]

Hahaha...that's ridiculous.

The picture is hilarious though.

[Mach]

Oh now you could have taken that better, Mach.

Kentucky could be tough, but with the Michigan Militia and our army of cheap American vehicles, we can get through them. That's when Pennsylvania and New York can start to help us as Illinois pushes into Missouri..
I think the Liberal Coalition's march or whatever's left of it would come to a mysterious dead halt right around that Lone Star State.
Don't mess with Texas.

[Colin™]

You guys remember that John Titor guy? The "time traveller" who posted in this random forum for about a year, telling people vague stuff about the future.

Well, he said starting in 2004, an American civil war would erupt. He never said when, but that we would know the day it begun.


Freaky.

[Virtual]

LMAO.

That is one ridiculous idea. Like mysterio said, its only 4 terrible years.....

[Mach]

You guys remember that John Titor guy? The "time traveller" who posted in this random forum for about a year, telling people vague stuff about the future.

Well, he said starting in 2004, an American civil war would erupt. He never said when, but that we would know the day it begun.


Freaky.
Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. He also said something around the time before the last election that there would be President for the upcoming years that will do his best to help America, but after him things will go into chaos. Who knows?
One thing I wasn't sure about though was his comments about the 04 Olympics. I believe he talked as if there was going to be some major terrorist attack in the Olympics but it didnt happen.

[Travis]

Oh yeah...I remember ole' John Titor. I was quite obsessed with reading all the stuff he said one day. Do you know how cool it would be if it was true?

*note: I do not believe it, but it is a rather cool story.

[Viper]

After 2 lines, I started laughing. I read the entire thread and I just now stopped laughing.


Let me take a quick voting sample, completely official of course.


California:
Kerry - 5,427,055
Bush - 4,403,495

Texas:
Kerry - 2,827,756
Bush - 4,519,023

So these people, how ever many there actually are, believe that these states are somehow 100% for the electorate that state won? Are they completely disregarding the millions that the states voted for the other guy? It's barely 55% in California that wanted Kerry. How do they get 100% out of that? Even 38% of Texans wanted Kerry. Did these people watch the same election I did?

We just witnessed 'Democracy' at work and the 'Democrats' don't like it? (only these morons, not all Dems)


So Democracy is great to them.....so long as it works in their favor. I see now. No wonder Republicans keep telling them to move to Canada (the ones that bitch about failure in the US voting).

[Mach]

Just curious Viper. If it came down to it, which country would you choose to live in?
http://kenlayne.com/new_map.jpg

[Viper]

Whichever has Florida.

Oh look, we voted Bush this year.



Highlight my sig.

[Mach]

Whichever has Florida.

Oh look, we voted Bush this year.
That'd be Jesusland. And trust me, Florida is and always will be conservative country. And why no love for your state Virginia up there? It'd be included in the new country too. lol

[Viper]

We're moving back to Florida ASAP, after Brenda finishes her term in the AF.

[Relient J]

Personally I think it's cool that the topic of secession has come up again. The Confederate States of America were unconstitutionally forced to be dissolved into the United States of America in my opinion. I think a new dialog on the subject, no matter how loony the source, is healthy.

[Viper]

If the reason behind the secession is well founded, then yes, a healthy debate that would be.

This is far from the civil and political conflicts that were the talk of that secession.

[Blaksmoke]

Instead of slaves, we'd be fighting over gays! Ho hohhohoho!

[Mach]

We're moving back to Florida ASAP, after Brenda finishes her term in the AF.
Yeah, but why no love for Virginia? Is it that bad?

[Viper]

No, it just isn't Florida. The ocean is better, no snow, more to do, looks better, lower sales tax (8.9% here), etc...



hey blaksmoke, what makes that hilarious is this. What is the first state that comes to mind when you think of gays? California. One of the states these people want to secede with.

[Mach]

hey blaksmoke, what makes that hilarious is this. What is the first state that comes to mind when you think of gays? California. One of the states these people want to secede with.
And Massachusetts....
But don't worry Viper, you've got Jesusland on your side. (Better keep the Da Vinci Code books back at home though :rolleyes: )

[Viper]

Jacksonville does have this very large church downtown that has its nose in local politics and it keeps many great things from being built, but despite the Jesusland politics, I like the people, the infrastructure, history (Spanish over Colonial), and much more.

[Mach]

Jacksonville does have this very large church downtown that has its nose in local politics and it keeps many great things from being built, but despite the Jesusland politics, I like the people, the infrastructure, history (Spanish over Colonial), and much more.
Keep many great things from being built? Like what? A whore house? A strip club?
And remember there is no I in 'Jesusland'.

[Relient J]

This is far from the civil and political conflicts that were the talk of that secession.

True, but there are some similarities. There are fairly clear geographical lines of difference, and the country is nearly evenly divided on the issues. It could happen.

[Viper]

More like roads, the downtown amphitheater, 2 massive downtown residential projects and have delayed dozens of others. Oddly enough, they have doen very little to remove any strip clubs.

Like I said, they are into the local politics, not just little neighborhoob issues. Every issue that goes before the city council gets major opposition from the church. Never once have I read about them baking a major local project. In fact, they almost kept us from getting the Jaguars on account of potential increase in crime and noise.

[Mach]

Probably all had very legitimate reasons behind them. What church is this by the way?

[Viper]

First Baptist Church and no, they weren't good reasons. That church has the city seperated because of its clout at city hall and how much it influences decisions.

http://www.fbcjax.com/



"opposing the construction of a new amphitheater due to the possibility it may attract more "satanic groups such as Marilyn Manson." The letter also blacklisted Green Day, gangsta rap, Snoop Doggy Dogg and Korn, and spoke poorly of the 1st Amendment and free speech rights."

"NBC targets SBC pastor
“NBC Nightly News” anchor Tom Brokaw introduced a segment painting noted Southern Baptist pastor Jerry Vines of First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Fla., as “Preaching hate against Muslims” during Brokaw’s Feb. 25 newscast. "

[Travis]

Yeah, it's a church. They must be right.

[Mach]

"opposing the construction of a new amphitheater due to the possibility it may attract more "satanic groups such as Marilyn Manson." The letter also blacklisted Green Day, gangsta rap, Snoop Doggy Dogg and Korn, and spoke poorly of the 1st Amendment and free speech rights."

"NBC targets SBC pastor
“NBC Nightly News” anchor Tom Brokaw introduced a segment painting noted Southern Baptist pastor Jerry Vines of First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Fla., as “Preaching hate against Muslims” during Brokaw’s Feb. 25 newscast. "
"opposing the construction of a new amphitheater due to the possibility it may attract more "satanic groups such as Marilyn Manson." The letter also blacklisted Green Day, gangsta rap, Snoop Doggy Dogg and Korn, and spoke poorly of the 1st Amendment and free speech rights."

Sounds like a legitimate reason to me. Seeing as Snoop Dogg, Korn, and Marilyn Manson, etc music all promote negative messages to kids. Ranging from violence to prostitution and drugs...Not to mention Marilyn Manson's down right disgusting messages he sends to kids. Columbine kids said they were inspired by mush like his.
So maybe a little overboard in some ways, but obviously they were trying to do what they felt was best for the community's kids, etc.

And let's not start becoming trusting of Brokaw and the far left media elite crowd. We all know how fair they report things...lol.

[Viper]

Mach, they wanted to, did, keep the ampitheater project from happeneing on account of possible artists when right next to is a colesium that also has those same artists.

[peasantlover]

Personally I think it's cool that the topic of secession has come up again. The Confederate States of America were unconstitutionally forced to be dissolved into the United States of America in my opinion. I think a new dialog on the subject, no matter how loony the source, is healthy.

You got to be kidding me J. Since when did you become a Confederate? Succession from the Union is not allowed by the Constitution (not that liberals worry about that sort of thing), so the Confederate States of America were illegal and unconstitutional to start with; their forced dissolvement and reunification with the Union was completely legal.

Not to burst your bubble, Mach, but this map, and the Genesis of this story, was from a German newspaper (no doubt making fun of the red states and Bush). I dont doubt some liberals looked at it and said "hah, thats a good idea," but American liberals did not make it up.

[peasantlover]

Viper, tell me that you dont seriously believe that the Church "spoke poorly of the 1st Amendment and free speech rights."

[Dwhitten]

I wish Illinois was a Bush state :cry:

[orcus116]

You guys remember that John Titor guy? The "time traveller" who posted in this random forum for about a year, telling people vague stuff about the future.

Well, he said starting in 2004, an American civil war would erupt. He never said when, but that we would know the day it begun.


Freaky.

I love how he says "The President in 2004" and not President Bush. If he's really telling us stuff why doesn't he just tell us who the president is gonna be.

[Viper]

Viper, tell me that you dont seriously believe that the Church "spoke poorly of the 1st Amendment and free speech rights."
That was a quote. Both of those were quotes. If you read the other posts, they have stuck their nose in many facets that have nothing to do with local religion. That quote came from one of those.


Many people are upset that he church takes up 9 whole blocks of grade A real estate in downtown, pays no taxes on its $40 million a year income and has its way with city council.

Mach, Tom Brokaw was not the only one to report, it was just the first one I grabbed, it was to illustrate how big the issue was.

[Lord Worm]

It's outlined in the constitution that its unconstitutional to try to separate from America? That's kinda redundant.

[peasantlover]

That was a quote. Both of those were quotes. If you read the other posts, they have stuck their nose in many facets that have nothing to do with local religion. That quote came from one of those.


Many people are upset that he church takes up 9 whole blocks of grade A real estate in downtown, pays no taxes on its $40 million a year income and has its way with city council.

Mach, Tom Brokaw was not the only one to report, it was just the first one I grabbed, it was to illustrate how big the issue was.

Yes, I realize it was a quote, Viper. It was a quote from a liberal organization attempting to discredit the Church. Here is what you did, though. You quoted them because they criticized the church for doing something you also criticize the church for (blocking the contstruction of the ampitheater), but then you took at face value you another completely unrelated statement (that they dont think people should have first amendment rights).. the second statement is completely ridiculous, and I expected you to be more critical and objective than that.

The reason the Church pays no taxes is because it is non-profit. Just like MAAD, the salvation army, .. even PETA..

[Viper]

Peasant, I don't think you read that correctly. The church wrote a letter to debunk the construction of the ampitheater. In it, they cited the attraction of those gropus and claimed that it's not a right for those groups to be able to play in Jacksonville.

To make matters worse, within two miles is the main colleseum, the Times-Union Performing Arts Center, the Florida Theater and Altell Stadium, all doing concerts including those bands.

[peasantlover]

I understand exactly what you meant, Viper, I am just not drawing the same conclusions as you. The Church doesnt want the ampitheater because they feel the bands that will come to play will have a corrupting influence (on the youth, or whoever). You disagree. Fine. What I dont understand is this could possibly be considered a freedom of speech issue... in fact I dont understand what how the first amendment has anything to do with it at all.

[HereticPB]

Hey I noticed something What about Hawaii?

[peasantlover]

Hawaii is a blue state...

[Relient J]

You got to be kidding me J. Since when did you become a Confederate? Succession from the Union is not allowed by the Constitution (not that liberals worry about that sort of thing), so the Confederate States of America were illegal and unconstitutional to start with; their forced dissolvement and reunification with the Union was completely legal.

That's one fair interpretation, and one that I disagree with. It's unconstitutional for states within the Union to form confederacies within said union. That doesn't apply to states that are not part of the United States. I realize my opinion is unpopular, but I must respectfully disagree with you, peasantlover.

[MagicJuggler]

And Massachusetts....
But don't worry Viper, you've got Jesusland on your side. (Better keep the Da Vinci Code books back at home though :rolleyes: )

I'm surprised nobody mentioned New Jersey...

But a civil war today would be so much more different than 1865. Would we be so desperate as to nuke ourselves? Would fighter planes strafe middle schools, like in...New Jersey? I don't want to imagine.

[Dark_Cloud]

If I had to pick between a country that is extreme liberal and one that is extreme conservative, I would go blue for sure. The worst thing that could happen to the United States of Canada is a total assimilation into canadain culture (do they even have one?). The worst thing that could happen in Jesus land is the president could send everyone on a crusade and get the whole country nuked by China. If we continue to have a healthy balance, we can avoid both those horrible futures.

[Lord Worm]

If I had to pick between a country that is extreme liberal and one that is extreme conservative, I would go blue for sure. The worst thing that could happen to the United States of Canada is a total assimilation into canadain culture (do they even have one?). The worst thing that could happen in Jesus land is the president could send everyone on a crusade and get the whole country nuked by China. If we continue to have a healthy balance, we can avoid both those horrible futures.

American culture and Canadian culture are very different. No state would ever dissolve into Canada.

[Blaksmoke]

The little bird part of Michigan would. Pansies!

[Dark_Cloud]

Washington, Oregon, and California would "disolve" into Canada if they had the chance.

[peasantlover]

That's hardly the worst thing that could happen DC..

[Viper]

That's hardly the worst thing that could happen DC..
For real.

Kerry could have won.


let's :roll:

[Dark_Cloud]

Bust isn't even very much better than Kerry. Both of them are dumbasses.

[Bryan]

I wish Illinois was a Bush state :cry:

You know we own you.

lol, I completely dismiss the notion that sane people are affected psychologically by any form of media. They were fucked in the head because of a previously existing condition, not because Marilyn Manson wore makeup or because you see pig aliens getting blown away in Doom. Complete, total, bullshit. People with enough sanity to tell between theatrics and reality don't shoot up their school.. it's the nutjobs that need to be institutionalized that do that and their parents blame the "mass media" for corrupting their kids.

Haha.. what a half assed excuse.