Mormons against free speech

[Michael Bluth]

SANDY, Utah - A retired Mormon educator who wrote a book questioning whether the founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints misrepresented his authority as a prophet was suspended from the church Sunday.

Grant Palmer, 64, who wrote "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins," could have been excommunicated. Instead, he said the church "disfellowshipped" him at a hearing, which means he will retain his membership but lose certain privileges, such as being able to go into temples or serve in an official church capacity.

The length of a disfellowshipment varies by case, and Palmer wouldn't comment more specifically on his punishment.

The fourth-generation Mormon said he was pleased with the decision, still loves the church and wants to remain a member because he believes in its fundamental message.

Church spokesman Dale Bills declined to comment on the case.

Palmer, who served as a church director and educator for 34 years and has a master's degree in history from Brigham Young University, said his research stemmed from a growing inability to reconcile discrepancies between history and his church service.

In the book, Palmer suggests that church founder Joseph Smith revised church scripture to his advantage.

The book says Smith didn't actually translate the Book of Mormon "by the gift and power of God" from an ancient set of golden plates, as the church's followers believe. Palmer suggested Smith wrote it himself, leaning heavily on the King James Bible and personal experiences.

Mormon scholars said Palmer's work was more damaging than other similar books because of his long history as a church member and educator. Others questioned how Palmer could still be a true believer, as he professed, if he had so many doubts.

Palmer's case is similar to six others in 1993 who faced disciplinary hearings for writing about Mormon history, feminism and new interpretations of theology. Five of the members were excommunicated, and one was disfellowshipped.




http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=21&u=/ap/20041212/ap_on_re_us/heresy_trial

What I still can't get over is how Mormons actually believe some random guy recieved some gold plates from their god to translate and have everybody worship. :drunk:

[Santa Claus]

Of all people, they keep sending me these free videos about the Book of Mormons. I wonder how the fuck they got my address.

[Viper]

1 North Pole.

Not that hard really.

[Santa Claus]

Yeah but do you know the postal code? Thats the tricky part, kid.

[Viper]

It's either 90210 or 31337

[aerofan113]

I have never understood the Mormon religion. I respect it nonetheless. Hell us Catholics believe that Moses parted the friggin Red Sea. Now for those of you who dont already know, thats a big ass body of salt water for one man to swim across much less move. But faith is what keeps people going. And apparently influences voting as well.

[HereticPB]

In the book, Palmer suggests that church founder Joseph Smith revised church scripture to his advantage.

Isn't that true for all the big religions. They make shit up to control masses of people for power and money. Corruption.

[Lord Worm]

What I still can't get over is how Mormons actually believe some random guy recieved some gold plates from their god to translate and have everybody worship. :drunk:

Guess what? That's pretty much how Catholosism began.

[peasantlover]

Gawd, I wish atheists would do more research into Christianity so they could at least come off as half way educated when they bash Christianity.
1. Adam, I cant say I disagree with the mormons here. I agree with everything the guy said.. The mormon religion is pretty much nonsense, as much as I can tell, invented by Joseph Smith.. for who knows what reason. I have a lot of respect for most mormons, because they are good, moral people. They havent declined and embraced secularism like a lot of religions have today. And other than their choice of religion, they seem to be pretty sensible. However, like I said, the Mormon religion is pretty much nonsense, which is why I am not a Mormon. So it kinda makes me wonder why he still calls himself a Mormon? And Adam, your thread title is shit. How are they restricting his freedom of speech? They arent. If a baptist preacher started saying Christ was made up by Paul and Peter and John.. well he wouldnt be accepted at the Southern Baptist Convention either, and with good reason.

2. Worm, that is NOTHING like how Catholocism began. It began with documented sources of thousands of people witnessing miracles by Christ, hundreds witnessing his death, and dozens witnessing him alive after his death. Furthermore, the New Testament, in which this is documented (by dozens of independent authors, not one like the book of Mormon), has never been discredited as a historical document (again, unlike the book of Mormon). In fact, it not only meets the standards historians use to judge historical texts, it surpasses them. Dont believe me? I challenge you, or anything atheist for that matter, to read this book: [/B]The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus[B]," by Lee Strobel, and see if there is anything it you can dispute. It is not a spiritual argument, but a scientific\archeological argument which effectively proves, in my opinion, that the New Testaments account of Christs life (including his death AND ressurrection) is accurate. If you read that and can still poke holes in his argument, I will be very much impressed. At the very least, you will be able to make educated remarks about the origin of Christianity.



p.s. Catholocism and Christianity began the same way, in case you didnt know.. because they are the same thing.

[Lord Worm]

Oh.

Okay, then worshiping the God of Abraham in general...What would you call that?
Whatever it is, it started from some guy saying, "Guess what? An omnipotent being told me that..."

Don't go off bashing Mormonism. Give it a couple thousand years and you'll see some Mormon miracles happening.

Hell, start worshipping me an I'll show you a miracle...
IN THE BEDROOM!

[MONSTER ZERO]

lol, what?

[Oddyssey]

Man I hate living in Idaho becuase of the damn morons. I'll write something since here your pretty much forced to read their history in school and being basicly the same state as Utah it blows here.

[Lammie]

If you wanna piss off a Mormon, just ask them about their 'Magic Underwear'. They'll try and change the subject but keep persisting and they'll stop knocking on your door so much.

[peasantlover]

wtf, there are Mormons in Australia?

[plebben]

there are mormons everywhere in the world peasant.
I have a church of latter days just around the corner here where I live outside stockholm in sweden...

[peasantlover]

How the fuck did they get to Sweden? haha.. I hafta apologize on behalf of America for giving the rest of the world for gtiving you Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses... figures that the two major religions that started in the U.S. would both be heretical Christian religions..

[Bryan]

haha.. as if there was ever any doubt that would happen.

[Sandman]

We do have Mormons on this board, and I would advise ALL OF YOU to stop with anything that may even be considered offensive.

[peasantlover]

What in the world are you talking about sexy?

[Lord Worm]

Do not try to entice him with your body, Peasant. What if IEFP were to come in here and see this?

Although his user title is "I'm Mormon...Insult me".

[Bryan]

That's opening the flood gates.

Peasant: Step off, biiiitch. Kevin is my man.

[peasantlover]

Ive discussed this before with IEFP without anyone getting their feelings hurt. He is a grown man, and defends himself without anyones help. I have a lot of respect for him... and as I said, I respect most Mormons, even if I dont have any respect for the religion.


Hell.. I havent cried about being offended with your smartass remarks about Catholocism or Christianity.. I'll just tell you why you are wrong and be on my way (nice dodge of my post on that subject, btw).. ;)

[Bryan]

It's not like he says it just to piss you off. There's some merit in criticism of Christianity, and organized religion as a whole.

But I will tell you, the Catholic church is pretty messed up sometimes. When did they finally admit the sun was the center of the universe?

Like, 1986?

[plebben]

...the sun is not the center of the universe.

[brudaman]

lmao he meant solar system.

[plebben]

Neither the solar system, nor the sun, is the center of the universe, Einstein.

[Oddyssey]

All i got to say is I like most mormons but Im not fond of holy underwear and their
Temple of Doom.

[peasantlover]

Neither the solar system, nor the sun, is the center of the universe, Einstein.

hahahah.. he burned you Bryan.

To answer your ridiculous question, the Church discovered that the Earth revolved around the sun exactly the same time the rest of society did: when science finally managed to prove it.

Regardless of any criticisms that might be valid against the Church, the ones Worm have made are not, because they are based on ignorant opinions with no basis in fact.

[Bryan]

It's been a while since astronomy, asshole.

I mistyped it, what I meant to say is they admitted that the Earth orbits the sun a little late. They admitted the Earth was round a little late, among probably 300 more examples, and they condemned intellectuals at the time as heretics.

I don't like the Catholic church. Catholicism is based on fear, not a devotion to God. Not that Catholics are bad people, I'm not talking about the people, I'm talking about the Church, and the Pope. Protestant churches are run a bit differently. Sure, they're based on damn near the same scripture, but the Protestants OBVIOUSLY are a separate unit from the Catholic church for a reason.

If there wasn't a reason for something, it would not occur. And I think that maybe the Protestants saw Catholicism as a step back, and decided to take a step forward and establish more tolerant organization. Not that they aren't judgemental as well, but they are definitely less so than the Catholic Church is. One thing is for damn sure as well, they don't have their heads nearly as far up their asses.

You have a problem with that, plebben? Peasant? By all means, do share.

EDIT: THIS DISCUSSION MAY VIOLATE A SPECIAL RULE IN THIS FORUM ABOUT RELIGIOUS DEFAMATION. WILL REVIEW. -Bryan

Update: Approval by Mach and Dwhitten1023. Let's carry on lightly!

[Relient J]

Protestants too are members of the catholic church (catholic meaning universal), but we have theological disagreements with our brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic church. However, everyone who acknowledges Christ as Lord and Savior is a part of the God's Kingdom, so we're all going to the same heaven, and that's exciting. There may be divisions of thought in the body of Christ on Earth, but in heaven we'll all worship God together.

[plebben]

It's been a while since astronomy, asshole.

I mistyped it, what I meant to say is they admitted that the Earth orbits the sun a little late. They admitted the Earth was round a little late, among probably 300 more examples, and they condemned intellectuals at the time as heretics.

I don't like the Catholic church. Catholicism is based on fear, not a devotion to God. Not that Catholics are bad people, I'm not talking about the people, I'm talking about the Church, and the Pope. Protestant churches are run a bit differently. Sure, they're based on damn near the same scripture, but the Protestants OBVIOUSLY are a separate unit from the Catholic church for a reason.

If there wasn't a reason for something, it would not occur. And I think that maybe the Protestants saw Catholicism as a step back, and decided to take a step forward and establish more tolerant organization. Not that they aren't judgemental as well, but they are definitely less so than the Catholic Church is. One thing is for damn sure as well, they don't have their heads nearly as far up their asses.

You have a problem with that, plebben? Peasant? By all means, do share.

EDIT: THIS DISCUSSION MAY VIOLATE A SPECIAL RULE IN THIS FORUM ABOUT RELIGIOUS DEFAMATION. WILL REVIEW. -Bryan

Update: Approval by Mach and Dwhitten1023. Let's carry on lightly!

umm.. i didnt mean to insult you.. i just pointed it out.. sorry if you thought i meant to sound arrogant.. that wasnt my intention.
the "..." in the begining was just stunned silence :D
it should be read with a laugh :)
I deffinatly dont have a problem with you.

to close the debate about the center of the universe id just like to say that noone knows if there is a center of the universe and, if so, where it is.
What we do know is that neither the sun nor the solarsystem is.
And the general church didnt recognize the fact that the earth was not the center of the universe until newton found out about gravity, and the vatican didnt accept it until long after that.
For example, The vatican didnt officially apologize for the arresting of Galileo Galilei, until 1992(!), because he from calculations and observations had relized it was impossible for the earth to be the center of the universe.

The Pope is yet to apologize for the catholic church ordering the burning of Giordano Bruno on the stake in the late 16th century. Bruno sugested that the universe is infinite and that the earth was not at all the center of the universe. He thought that the universe was eternal.
Today we know that Bruno was more or less right and the church was wrong. Still the havent recognized they were wrong when the killed him.

As for protestantic societies they are more secular than catholic because one of Luthers ideas was that the church it self had nothing to do with salvation. If you sin you've sinned, and thats final. Going to a priest and confess wont help you.

Btw Luther was not a nice person.
For those who saw the movie Luther that went up on cinemas a few moths ago id just like to say that the movie does not stay to the facts about his life. It just paints a romancing picture of him in comparrison to what he really was like.

[Relient J]

As for protestantic societies they are more secular than catholic because one of Luthers ideas was that the church it self had nothing to do with salvation. If you sin you've sinned, and thats final. Going to a priest and confess wont help you.

I definitely wouldn't use the word "secular" to describe Protestantism. It's not the church that can save your soul, it's God through Jesus Christ alone. Confessing your sins to a priest or pastor is helpful in that confession of sins to one another is called for by the Bible. However, we believe that God Himself will forgive our sins if we ask him to, and that we don't need a priest to hear our confessions. There's no finality to sin if you've asked God's forgiveness and confessed Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

[plebben]

yeah but northern patrs of europe where the reformation replaced catholicism with protestantism are generally more scular because the church in a protestant society dont have such a central roll as in a catholic one. As time passes protestantism in much greater spreading adopts to a more secular way. Not that people deny god. But religion is no longer very important and its much more only reflected inside people.
Ofcourse some parts of england and northern ireland are the exceptions, and also some of the southern parts of france(where the people for some reason are protestants).
But all in all both religions ultimatly comes down to accepting jesus. Its just that catholic churches forge people together in a way the protestant society often dont since the church is not such a central part of the tradition and ritual.
When your sin becomes personal and between you and God only, secular thoughts often gain more easily on you than if you have to confess to someone.

[Relient J]

^ That's an interesting view point. Here in America there are definitely many examples of ritualistic Christianity, but I don't think that's necessarily the logical end of Protestantism. In many parts of the U.S. there are strong revivals going on. Whole congregations exist of people who are largely on fire for God. It's a wonderful thing to be a part of. Though you wouldn't know it from watching American television, Christian entertainment is a big part of the lives of many Christians, so for many of us, our faith is a big part of our day-to-day lives in a variety of ways. From where I stand, Christianity is thriving here in the States.

[peasantlover]

I think that is because of Europe, plebben, not a character of Protestantism. The same thing happens in Catholic parts of Europe, such as Spain and Italy. I think religion is just as central to the lives of protestants as it is to Catholics, and it is just as likely to get intertwines with the government as Catholocism, given the right circumstances (just look at the American colonies before America succeeded from the British Crown). On the other hand, Europe in general has rejected Christianity since its failure to stop the monstrosities Hitler committed in WWII.

Protestants too are members of the catholic church (catholic meaning universal), but we have theological disagreements with our brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic church. However, everyone who acknowledges Christ as Lord and Savior is a part of the God's Kingdom, so we're all going to the same heaven, and that's exciting. There may be divisions of thought in the body of Christ on Earth, but in heaven we'll all worship God together.
Yes, my sentiments exactly... this is my only reason for singling out Mormons and Jehovah witnesses, since they do not acknowledge this. (p.s. I wish all protestants agreed with you on this, heh).

and Bryan... play nice, okay?

[Relient J]

^ I wish all Catholics agreed with me too. :)

[plebben]

Peasant Religion is probably just as central among protestants as it is among catholics.
But the Church is not.
Thats the difference.
Calvin went further than Luther and said out loud that the church had played out its role and was unneccesary. The church is within you, in your heart. Gods house is not a building built by man, it is man self who house and stand respinsible to God.

Only God could forgive your sins. A house with a priest in it telling you that you were forgiven for the sins youve commited was not true to God, because only God had the power to forgive. Priests were just humanbeings just like everyone else.
That was what both Calvin and Luther said.

When the priest lost his seat under God, peoples interest in the church as a place for salvation dropped.
But then again, its different in european countries compared to america.
Same probably goes for mormons outside america. And Jhehovas Witnesses.

[Relient J]

I would say that the body of Christ = the church. The Bible also says that as Christians our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. It also says that all of us as Christians are part of a royal priesthood. However, the church (meaning the Sunday morning service) is still a crucial part of the Christian walk because the Bible warns against abandoning the gathering together of believers.

By the way, I think this is a great discussion. :)

[Bryan]

and Bryan... play nice, okay?

Haha, sure man. I'm just taking it in now.

[plebben]

I would say that the body of Christ = the church. The Bible also says that as Christians our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. It also says that all of us as Christians are part of a royal priesthood. However, the church (meaning the Sunday morning service) is still a crucial part of the Christian walk because the Bible warns against abandoning the gathering together of believers.

By the way, I think this is a great discussion. :)
That is where luther had some different ideas and Calvin totally rejected the idea of a physical church.
Luther didnt want the church to go away. Like you, he thought it was a good sunday schooling or "get together". But it was important that the church didnt have too much power. The "earthly lords", the emperors, kings, dukes etc had their power from god. The church was not to interfere or question that. Neither was the common folk.

[Relient J]

The goal of the church as a body of believers shouldn't be to amass power, but to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ to the world. So the kinds of "power" it should seek are the power to evangelize, and the power to take care of those in need both in and out of the church.

Based on Scripture I do think that those that are in power throughout the world are there by the grace of God. Sometimes it's not easy to see why. However, that doesn't excuse any actions taken by those in authority. Rather, it should serve to keep the authority accountable for their actions.

[Bryan]

I refuse to believe that. I think we're left to live our lives at our own terms, and run the world on our own terms. Something called "free will".

[Relient J]

^ I too believe in free will, but also God's guidance. Those may sound like contradictory forces, but I truly believe that we do have free will. Nothing could happen without God allowing it to do so, but that doesn't mean that he directly causes it to happen. Mistakes are ours to make, as are triumphs. The real joy I think is in asking for God's guidance. The interplay between free will and God's will is something that I don't think I'll fully understand until I'm able to ask God when I stand in his presence in heaven.

[Bryan]

That's certainly the most humble respose I have ever heard from a religious individual.

Thank you, Relient.

[Relient J]

^ No problem, man. And thank you for the complement. I wish I knew all the answers, but I don't. But I know the One who does, and that's what matters.

[IEatFriedPikmin]

lol. was this thread made directly towards me?

I fully agree with the guys "punishment"... i guess you would call it.

I do not see why he is even Mormon if he questions Joseph Smith. Our Church works like a chain. If you don't believe in the Book of Mormon, you do not believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. If he is not a prophet, neither are any of the other modern day ones are, meaning our church is completely false. He committed a serious sin, and is not worthy of doing some things that a worthy church member is allowed to do. The same goes to anyone who does , ery, etc.

I like how the thread title is so misleading so it makes my church look bad too. If we had as much free speech towards our religion as we do in America, our religion would be very corrupt. We do have freedom of speech to an extent, though.
Michael, Adam, whoever you are, we believe things for a reason. Dont go around dissing my religion when you have no idea what it is about.

Yes, we do wear magical underwear called garments. We do have a lot of beliefs that people find hard to understand... like 3 levels of heaven, Christ visiting the Americas, not drinking coffee, etc, etc.

Idaho does suck. The only good thing about it is that Napolean Dynamite was shot there... by Mormons I might add.

And yes, I believe Catholicism is just as much nonsense the same as Peasant believes that Mormonism is nonsense.

[Bryan]

You took that better than I thought you would.

And yes, I believe Catholicism is just as much nonsense the same as Peasant believes that Mormonism is nonsense.

lol, I like you.

[peasantlover]

heh, I still love you Evan. And if you read again I agree with their decision to punish him also.. He obviously doesnt believe Mormon teachings, there is no reason for the Mormon Church to let him going around claiming to be a Mormon.

[IEatFriedPikmin]

Yep. One of the questions they have to ask you when you get a temple recomend is if you believe that our church is the restored church of Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith was a true prophet, etc. The guy got what he deserved.