Does Edgar have your vote?

[bravest]

Is Edgar Martinez worthy of a spot in The Hall?

For me, the answer is yes, and it's quite obvious. The DH is considered a position, and since he was the best at that (hands down, I might add) he should qualify. I heard yesterday on SportsCenter that attitude and personality is part of the criteria for getting into The Hall, and he exceeds all expectation of that. Also, his bat and his .312 BA is no slouch. :nod:

[Penning10]

No.

[bravest]

No.

Is there any reason behind your decision? :shake:

[allsportidiot]

Personally, it is very close but I say no. DH is a much simpler position then any on the field, but the fact that is maybe the greatest DH of all-time levels that out. His stats are bonderline to getting in at this moment, but soon people will be retiring with 500 homeruns and may not get in. Should Edgar make the ballot? Without a doubt. He could get in and he may not get in, there is actually someone who I believe is in his shoes as well with this situation, Mark Grace. Both have a chance, but I dont think either well just because the Hall of Fame is going to seem like a much higher level group here soon.

[Penning10]

Is there any reason behind your decision? :shake:
He never really played the game, and he was never anything really special about him as a hitter.

There's a very long list of better hitters during this era, and they also all played a position.

Stand up guy, but that doesn't get you into the hall of fame.

[bravest]

He never really played the game, and he was never anything really special about him as a hitter.

BA: .312
Hits: 2,205
HRs: 305
RBIs: 1,244

Hell, he even had 48 stolen bases! If you don't think those stats are that special, cyber-shoot me. :hardass:

[twins15]

I think he deserves to be in, but just barely.

[Penning10]

BA: .312
Hits: 2,205
HRs: 305
RBIs: 1,244

Hell, he even had 48 stolen bases! If you don't think those stats are that special, cyber-shoot me. :hardass:
If you let this guy in, then there are a ton of other players that should go in after him. Those stats are nothing that stands out. On top of that, he's never been the best player at his position (hitter), and he's really only had one stellar season.

[bravest]

I agree, but the bottom line is, he was the best at his position. He would've been a great fielder if his legs could've handled it.

[Penning10]

He wasn't the best at his position. His position is quite vague, as it is just 'hitter'. Can you honestly say he was the best hitter at any time in his career? Not even close.

[AO street ballin]

I agree, but the bottom line is, he was the best at his position. He would've been a great fielder if his legs could've handled it.

Exactly why he should be in. DH is a position. It takes up a spot on the roster so it's a position. If you say Edgar shouldn't get in, then Paul Moliter (sp) shouldn't of made it either.

[Penning10]

Paul Molitor was a whole lot better than Edgar Martinez.

Besides that, Molitor (until the later part of his career), was never really a full or part time DH. Edgar Martinez has been his entire career, except for 2 seasons.

[bravest]

He wasn't the best at his position. His position is quite vague, as it is just 'hitter'. Can you honestly say he was the best hitter at any time in his career? Not even close.
The dumbest thing I've heard in my life...
So, is a pitcher not qualified because he only pitches? Every five days, I might add...

Exactly why he should be in. DH is a position. It takes up a spot on the roster so it's a position.
:nod:

[Penning10]

The dumbest thing I've heard in my life...
thanks! :shake:

[AO street ballin]

thanks! :shake:

:what: He's said dumber. Why don't we ask Khalil, Sandman? :biggrin:

Point is, if it takes up a spot on your roster, it's a position. Sayin Edgar doesn't deserve to be in Cooperstown is like sayin Eric Gagne didn't deserve CY last year (I hate the guy but he did deserve it) or sayin unless a pitcher gets a no-no shutout or a perfect game he doesn't deserve in Coopstown. That's like sayin a pitcher doesn't deserve it period. Martinez played everyday unlike pitchers do, so he deserves it as much, even more than some people.

[Sam-ES]

I think its a definite yes. Not only does he hold many of the records for the DH spot, but its the way he does it. He did not just hit homers. He could hit well for average and contact. If needed to, Edgar could spray the ball all over the field. He could hit the big sac fly and he could even lay down the bunt. The most amazing thing is that his power numbers got better as he got older. It does not matter if he did not play the field. Personally, I think he is one of the best hitters in the past 10 years.

On a side note, I think that Harold Baines should be elected into Hall. :biggrin:

[AO street ballin]

I think its a definite yes. Not only does he hold many of the records for the DH spot, but its the way he does it. He did not just hit homers. He could hit well for average and contact. If needed to, Edgar could spray the ball all over the field. He could hit the big sac fly and he could even lay down the bunt. The most amazing thing is that his power numbers got better as he got older. It does not matter if he did not play the field. Personally, I think he is one of the best hitters in the past 10 years.

On a side note, I think that Harold Baines should be elected into Hall. :biggrin:

OK no.

Edgar didn't just hit for average and power and contact, he also could hit pretty good in any clutch situation. I would rather have Edgar up there than most guys in the Major Leagues.

[PacMan]

Yes...

He was the best DH to ever play the game, plus a decent 3rd baseman years back.
Held a .312 BA throughout his career, which is excellent.

Thats enough, he will get into the Hall.

[Penning10]

He is the best at his position because he is the only one at his position; on top of that, he doesn't play a position; he's a designated hitter, his job on the baseball field is to hit; has he done his job on the level as some of the greatest of all time? No. Has he done his job on the level of some of the greatest of the last decade? No. He's never been an exceptionally great hitter nor player (outside of one season), and those are the only players that should get into the hall.

If you let Edgar Martinez in, there are plenty of other guys that should follow, like Tino Martinez, Andres Galarraga, Mo Vaughn, Ellis Burks, etc.. plenty of other guys that shouldn't be in. The Hall of Fame is reserved for All-Time Greats, Edgar Martinez is not an all-time great.

[Sam-ES]

OK no.

Edgar didn't just hit for average and power and contact, he also could hit pretty good in any clutch situation. I would rather have Edgar up there than most guys in the Major Leagues.

Why did you say "OK no." You basically just said everything I said. :shake:

[AO street ballin]

He is the best at his position because he is the only one at his position; on top of that, he doesn't play a position; he's a designated hitter, his job on the baseball field is to hit; has he done his job on the level as some of the greatest of all time? No. Has he done his job on the level of some of the greatest of the last decade? No. He's never been an exceptionally great hitter nor player (outside of one season), and those are the only players that should get into the hall.

If you let Edgar Martinez in, there are plenty of other guys that should follow, like Tino Martinez, Andres Galarraga, Mo Vaughn, Ellis Burks, etc.. plenty of other guys that shouldn't be in. The Hall of Fame is reserved for All-Time Greats, Edgar Martinez is not an all-time great.

But those guys don't compare to Edgar. And yes DH is a position. Since 1973 the DH position was put into the game and has a spot in Coopstown. If you say that about Edgar than guys who have less than a .330 average shouldn't make it in either. Hell, why not say unless you hit .350, 600 HRs, and have a OPS of over 1.000 you don't make it in the hall. So lets see only.......... just about no one would make it.

[Penning10]

But those guys don't compare to Edgar.
You're right, they've all been a lot better.
And yes DH is a position.
A position is in the field. He's an extra bat in the order.
Since 1973 the DH position was put into the game and has a spot in Coopstown.
I have no problem putting a DH in the Hall of Fame, if he's one of the greats of all time.
If you say that about Edgar than guys who have less than a .330 average shouldn't make it in either. Hell, why not say unless you hit .350, 600 HRs, and have a OPS of over 1.000 you don't make it in the hall. So lets see only.......... just about no one would make it.
Not 'just about no one', only deserving players go into the hall of fame. Not, Joe Blow who had a good, but not great career, or John Smith who had an above average career.

The Hall of Fame is for the Legends.

[AO street ballin]

You're right, they've all been a lot better.

A position is in the field. He's an extra bat in the order.

I have no problem putting a DH in the Hall of Fame, if he's one of the greats of all time.

Not 'just about no one', only deserving players go into the hall of fame. Not, Joe Blow who had a good, but not great career, or John Smith who had an above average career.

The Hall of Fame is for the Legends.

And hes a ledgend in his own right. When you think Mariners over the past years, you think of usually 4-5 people: Griffey, A-Rod, Randy, Boone, and Edgar. Why? Because Edgar helped make the club what it was.

[Penning10]

And hes a ledgend in his own right. When you think Mariners over the past years, you think of usually 4-5 people: Griffey, A-Rod, Randy, Boone, and Edgar. Why? Because Edgar helped make the club what it was.
He should go into the Mariners hall of fame, no doubt; that really doesn't help his case for the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[AO street ballin]

He should go into the Mariners hall of fame, no doubt; that really doesn't help his case for the Baseball Hall of Fame.

When your a team name player, it does help your chances. Like lets look at Albert Belle. If it weren't for the fact he was a total ass and broke every rule possible, he would be in the Hall-O-Fame. Edgar has batted over .300 for his career. Some guys don't bat over .300 in a season. Over 2000 hits, that's also very hard to do unless your consistant of a player.

[Penning10]

When your a team name player, it does help your chances.
Then, again, there are a ton of other players that need to get in.

Like lets look at Albert Belle. If it weren't for the fact he was a total ass and broke every rule possible, he would be in the Hall-O-Fame.
No, I really don't think he would be.

Edgar has batted over .300 for his career. Some guys don't bat over .300 in a season. Over 2000 hits, that's also very hard to do unless your consistant of a player.
It's good, but it's still not great, or legendary.

[AO street ballin]

Then, again, there are a ton of other players that need to get in.


No, I really don't think he would be.


It's good, but it's still not great, or legendary.

Like I said, You've got to have .350 BA, 600 HRs, and 1.000 OPS lifetime.

[Penning10]

Like I said, You've got to have .350 BA, 600 HRs, and 1.000 OPS lifetime.
:stupid:

That's not it, at all. It's not even based on career statistics, it's on a case by case basis. That's not to say somebody with those stats gets left out.

[AO street ballin]

:stupid:

That's not it, at all. It's not even based on career statistics, it's on a case by case basis. That's not to say somebody with those stats gets left out.

Your bein contradictive. Make up your mind.

If you want a position player who played his certain well and had a over .300 OBP and over 2000 hits, at his certain position, then put Edgar in.

[bravest]

What do you name the DH then, just an extra bat, like you said before? Why do they name, although quietly, best hitting pitcher? Edgar deserves it.

[Penning10]

Your bein contradictive. Make up your mind.
What? I said it wouldn't be based entirely on career stats.

If you want a position player who played his certain well and had a over .300 OBP and over 2000 hits, at his certain position, then put Edgar in.
Did he play his damndest? Yes.
Was he a very good player? Yes.
Is he an all time great? No.

[X-Factor]

yes he definately should, hands down

[AO street ballin]

What? I said it wouldn't be based entirely on career stats.


Did he play his damndest? Yes.
Was he a very good player? Yes.
Is he an all time great? No.

Out of all the "greats", what did most of them do? Break records. Edgar may not have broken a record, but he sure as hell did better then some guys in the hall.

[Penning10]

What do you name the DH then, just an extra bat, like you said before?
Quite frankly...yeah. He plays half of the game, and he doesn't do his half exceptionally better than a lot of others. I could probably say that he has never been the best DH in the league, but there are no other full time DHs in the league.
Why do they name, although quietly, best hitting pitcher?
Why not name best hitting pitcher? I don't see the harm in it. I don't see the harm in naming the best guy that is a designated hitter, either.
Edgar deserves it.
Why?

[AO street ballin]

Quite frankly...yeah. He plays half of the game, and he doesn't do his half exceptionally better than a lot of others. I could probably say that he has never been the best DH in the league, but there are no other full time DHs in the league.

Why not name best hitting pitcher? I don't see the harm in it. I don't see the harm in naming the best guy that is a designated hitter, either.

Why?

So if only playin half a game won't get you in the hall of fame, then AL pitchers can't be in the hall of fame. They only play half a game now don't they?

[Penning10]

So if only playin half a game won't get you in the hall of fame, then AL pitchers can't be in the hall of fame. They only play half a game now don't they?
There are 2 sides to the roster. 1 side is for pitchers, whose jobs are to pitch. The other side is for position players, whose jobs are to bat and field.

Like I said, it really isn't the DH thing that I have a problem with, but it definitely doesn't help.

[AO street ballin]

There are 2 sides to the roster. 1 side is for pitchers, whose jobs are to pitch. The other side is for position players, whose jobs are to bat and field.

Like I said, it really isn't the DH thing that I have a problem with, but it definitely doesn't help.

Well if you have a problem with DH, I have a problem with pitchers unless they're in the NL. We could say the same thing for Moliter, but we don't do we? Edgar is better than Paul and you know it so why let Paul in but not Edgar?

[bravest]

There are 2 sides to the roster. 1 side is for pitchers, whose jobs are to pitch. The other side is for position players, whose jobs are to bat and field.
Thank you for proving my point:

What is a pitcher's job? It is to pitch, correct? What is a full time DH's job to do? It is to hit, and hands down Edgar was the best at it.

Also, his stats would be better (more homeruns, hits, at bats, etc.) if he hadn't been called up when he was only 27 years old. What he did in 14 years in the majors is astonishing.

[AO street ballin]

Thank you for proving my point:

What is a pitcher's job? It is to pitch, correct? What is a full time DH's job to do? It is to hit, and hands down Edgar was the best at it.

Also, his stats would be better (more homeruns, hits, at bats, etc.) if he hadn't been called up when he was only 27 years old. What he did in 14 years in the majors is astonishing.

Exactly what I was sayin. So if you can't put Edgar in the Hall for doin his specific job (as a DH is only to hit) then you can't put any AL pitcher in the Hall and probably all NL relief pitchers.

[snowdog1075]

I think the guy became one of the most solid DH's ever. Just becasue he didn't crush home runs every time he was up should not discount the fact that you could depend on him to get a hit in the clutch and being able to perform in the clutch should be enough of a reason to have a spot in the HOF. Look at it this way. If at your school or job you are the person who always get's their work done right and on time then you deserve recognition for it. That's exactly what he did. He got the job he was given done and then some. :nod:

[AO street ballin]

I think the guy became one of the most solid DH's ever. Just becasue he didn't crush home runs every time he was up should not discount the fact that you could depend on him to get a hit in the clutch and being able to perform in the clutch should be enough of a reason to have a spot in the HOF. Look at it this way. If at your school or job you are the person who always get's their work done right and on time then you deserve recognition for it. That's exactly what he did. He got the job he was given done and then some. :nod:

And think about it. he could be like a lot of other players and cave under the pressure, but he took it on his shoulders and basically acted like it was nothing. When you can do that, that should get something. Especially with how he is the best to play his SPECIFIC position.

[Penning10]

Out of all the "greats", what did most of them do? Break records.
Some may have, but you don't have to be a record breaker to be one of the greatest of all time.

Edgar may not have broken a record, but he sure as hell did better then some guys in the hall.
Name some guys. There are other guys in the hall that shouldn't be there as well.

[AO street ballin]

Edgar is tied for 59th best career average.
Just about in the top 100 in RBIs
36th in Doubles
Tied for 43rd in SLG
37th in Walks and
10th OBP

[Penning10]

It is to hit, and hands down Edgar was the best at it.
If you're saying he was the best DH ever, then yes he was, because he is the ONLY DH ever.

If you're saying he's the best at what he did (hit), then you're horribly mistaken.

[bravest]

If you're saying he was the best DH ever, then yes he was, because he is the ONLY DH ever.

If you're saying he's the best at what he did (hit), then you're horribly mistaken.
Name some guys that made it to the hall because of their fielding. You've been saying that Edgar isn't the best hitter of all time (I'll admit that ;) ), but taking him out of the hall because of a disability to play an infield position doesn't seem right.

I'm sure that if Edgar played first all these years and made 50 errors a season, you would take him out of the hall altogether. Why should the Mariners destroy his career by making him field if he obviously can't? The MLB didn't put the DH in there just for Edgar - it just happens to be a coincidence that no other player plays in that spot as much as Edgar himself.

[AO street ballin]

Name some guys that made it to the hall because of their fielding. You've been saying that Edgar isn't the best hitter of all time (I'll admit that ;) ), but taking him out of the hall because of a disability to play an infield position doesn't seem right.

I'm sure that if Edgar played first all these years and made 50 errors a season, you would take him out of the hall altogether. Why should the Mariners destroy his career by making him field if he obviously can't? The MLB didn't put the DH in there just for Edgar - it just happens to be a coincidence that no other player plays in that spot as much as Edgar himself.

Look at Manny Ramirez, can't field if his life depended on it. What's gonna happen with him? He's gonna be in the hall because he's consistant enough a hitter that it outweighs that he sucks at fieldin. Same with Edgar, he's not the best but from the stats I put up earlier, he's better than a lot of people ever have been.

[bravest]

Look at Manny Ramirez, can't field if his life depended on it. What's gonna happen with him? He's gonna be in the hall because he's consistant enough a hitter that it outweighs that he sucks at fieldin. Same with Edgar, he's not the best but from the stats I put up earlier, he's better than a lot of people ever have been.

Edgar in his prime = Manny in his prime

:nod:

[AO street ballin]

Edgar in his prime = Manny in his prime

:nod:

I like this bravest guy. He's pretty smart. :cool:

[Penning10]

Not a good fielder and not fielding at all are two totally different things.

Even then, had Manny Ramirez been in Edgar's situation being a full time DH his whole career, Manny would still be a hall of famer.

[AO street ballin]

Not a good fielder and not fielding at all are two totally different things.

Even then, had Manny Ramirez been in Edgar's situation being a full time DH his whole career, Manny would still be a hall of famer.

Which proves my point of you bein a dumb@$$. No, that Edgar does deserve to be in the HOF.

tied for 59th best career average.
Just about in the top 100 in RBIs
36th in Doubles
Tied for 43rd in SLG
37th in Walks and
10th OBP

[bravest]

Not a good fielder and not fielding at all are two totally different things.

Even then, had Manny Ramirez been in Edgar's situation being a full time DH his whole career, Manny would still be a hall of famer.
Here's something to think about:
If a team makes a player play in the field and he does horribly, (in this case Edgar Martinez) he would probably be a second ballot hall of famer, correct? Why have Edgar be put down by the public and his terrible defense, when you can put in the very legal designated hitter role? Might I add, players are not selected for the hall of fame as hitters, but as players. Edgar did the job the Seattle Mariner organization set up for him.

Let's compare some stats:

M. Ramirez -- .317 BA, .412 OBP, 375 HRs, 1,225 RBIs
E. Martinez -- .312 BA, .420 OBP, 306 HRs, 1,246 RBIs
EDGE: M. Ramirez

Close, but I'm sure Manny will be a first ballot hall of famer after he reaches the 500 HR landmark. :)

However, I feel you have to take into consideration what Edgar Martinez has done for the Seattle Mariners. When you think back, beyond what Griffey Jr. and Randy Johnson did, you get Edgar (and maybe Jay Buhner). That should count for something.

[Penning10]

Which proves my point of you bein a dumb@$$.
Thanks, I guess I see the light now. :stupid:

M. Ramirez -- .317 BA, .412 OBP, 375 HRs, 1,225 RBIs
E. Martinez -- .312 BA, .420 OBP, 306 HRs, 1,246 RBIs
EDGE: M. Ramirez
Ramirez only seems to have a slight edge at this point because he hasn't been playing as long, and isn't done yet. It's not only his career statistics, it's his individual performance each season. He's never been a legend, and has never really done much with his bat. If Edgar played average defense anywhere on the field, it would definitely help his stock a little, but he still wouldn't be a Hall of Fame player.

Yes, he has done a lot for the Mariners and Seattle, but so has Al Leiter with the Mets and New York. Does that make him a Baseball Hall of Famer? No, but it does make him a Mets Hall of Famer.

[AO street ballin]

Thanks, I guess I see the light now. :stupid:


Ramirez only seems to have a slight edge at this point because he hasn't been playing as long, and isn't done yet. It's not only his career statistics, it's his individual performance each season. He's never been a legend, and has never really done much with his bat. If Edgar played average defense anywhere on the field, it would definitely help his stock a little, but he still wouldn't be a Hall of Fame player.

Yes, he has done a lot for the Mariners and Seattle, but so has Al Leiter with the Mets and New York. Does that make him a Baseball Hall of Famer? No, but it does make him a Mets Hall of Famer.

The thing is though, atleast Edgar is above average. I really don't need to show the stats again. He has played the field but not as often as anyone else. And if you think about it, Manny didn't really start playin until his contract year with the Indians. Edgar has played his heart out every single day he played.

[Penning10]

And if you think about it, Manny didn't really start playin until his contract year with the Indians.
:eyebrow: I guess 165 RBI isn't when he 'started playing?' :pity:
Edgar has played his heart out every single day he played.
I've already acknowledged that; that won't get you into the Hall of Fame like so many other players out there. That can only take you so far...

[AO street ballin]

:eyebrow: I guess 165 RBI isn't when he 'started playing?' :pity:

I've already acknowledged that; that won't get you into the Hall of Fame like so many other players out there. That can only take you so far...

Like I said before: stereotype hall-o-famer makes/breaks records to most people.

What your sayin right now is like sayin Ricky Henderson isn't gonna make it in the HOF.

[bravest]

Like I said before: stereotype hall-o-famer makes/breaks records to most people.

What your sayin right now is like sayin Ricky Henderson isn't gonna make it in the HOF.
Oh, very nice point there, with Ricky Henderson. All he did was run fast, right?

Sandman: It seems like you forget that Edgar Martinez started playing in the MLB when he was twenty-seven...

[AO street ballin]

Oh, very nice point there, with Ricky Henderson. All he did was run fast, right?

Sandman: It seems like you forget that Edgar Martinez started playing in the MLB when he was twenty-seven...

Manny's been playin since when.... I think 23. So Manny has more time. I mean I'm not knockin Manny, I still love him after he left Cleveland. Him and my mom almost went out, but the thing is he's had more time.

Thank you for the dap bravest.

[bravest]

Manny's been playin since when.... I think 23. So Manny has more time. I mean I'm not knockin Manny, I still love him after he left Cleveland. Him and my mom almost went out, but the thing is he's had more time.

Thank you for the dap bravest.
Dude, that's awesome - having a mom that almost went out with Mr. Manny Ramirez... Big ups to your mom. :biggrin:

[AO street ballin]

Dude, that's awesome - having a mom that almost went out with Mr. Manny Ramirez... Big ups to your mom. :biggrin:

Man I was upset when he left cause it ws the same year she met him. I could be rich and livin in Boston.

[bravest]

Man I was upset when he left cause it ws the same year she met him. I could be rich and livin in Boston.
Haha. AND you'd have season tickets to the Red Sox and Celtics. :biggrin:

[AO street ballin]

Haha. AND you'd have season tickets to the Red Sox and Celtics. :D

You don't know how much I wanna cry right now. :frown: :pissedoff

[Penning10]

What your sayin right now is like sayin Ricky Henderson isn't gonna make it in the HOF.
No, Rickey is in. He IS a legend.

[AO street ballin]

No, Rickey is in. He IS a legend.

And why is this Sandman?

[Penning10]

He's a legend, it doesn't need much explanation. He's the most prolific base stealer ever, he had legitimate power too, all time runs leader. Best leadoff hitter to ever play the game.

[AO street ballin]

He's a legend, it doesn't need much explanation. He's the most prolific base stealer ever, he had legitimate power too, all time runs leader. Best leadoff hitter to ever play the game.

Now you said leader which means he broke a record (plus he lead the league in most career steals) so record-breaker.

[Penning10]

In this case, yes. He would have been in if he retired 5 years ago and didn't break the record.

Ken Griffey Jr. is a hall of famer, how many records does he have?

Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson & Pedro Martinez as well; Bonds, Sosa, Piazza, Alomar among others; these guys are the legends playing right now. Does Edgar Martinez fit into that group?

[AO street ballin]

In this case, yes. He would have been in if he retired 5 years ago and didn't break the record.

Ken Griffey Jr. is a hall of famer, how many records does he have?

Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson & Pedro Martinez as well; Bonds, Sosa, Piazza, Alomar among others; these guys are the legends playing right now. Does Edgar Martinez fit into that group?

When you throw Piazza and Alomar in there, yes he does.

[Penning10]

Not even close. Piazza is one of, if not the best catcher of all time; Alomar one of the best 2nd Baseman of all time. Even just purely offensively, both of these guys were miles ahead of Edgar Martinez.

[AO street ballin]

Not even close. Piazza is one of, if not the best catcher of all time; Alomar one of the best 2nd Baseman of all time. Even just purely offensively, both of these guys were miles ahead of Edgar Martinez.

OK, I love Robbie with all my heart (he's my cousin) but him and Edgar are pretty close. Just in average and all of that. Robbies just faster and plays 2B.

[Penning10]

Robbie had all the tools, Edgar had 2.

Robbie was one of (if not THE) best hitter to field 2B.

Piazza is the best hitter ever to catch a game.

How does Edgar Martinez fit in there?
Is he the best or one of the best hitters to ever DH?
The only reason he's referred to as the best DH of all time is that he is the ONLY DH of all time.

[AO street ballin]

Robbie had all the tools, Edgar had 2.

Robbie was one of (if not THE) best hitter to field 2B.

Piazza is the best hitter ever to catch a game.

How does Edgar Martinez fit in there?
Is he the best or one of the best hitters to ever DH?
The only reason he's referred to as the best DH of all time is that he is the ONLY DH of all time.

Abrey Huff is one. Paul Moliter is one. Ben Brousard is one. So how is he the only one. When managers realize that a guy can't field he becomes a DH.

[Penning10]

Huff has played 98/115 games this year in the field, as well as 132/162 last year. Definitely not a full time DH.

Broussard has started 70 games at first this season.

Molitor was never really a full time DH either. He was on and off during his career.

[AO street ballin]

Huff has played 98/115 games this year in the field, as well as 132/162 last year. Definitely not a full time DH.

Broussard has started 70 games at first this season.

Molitor was never really a full time DH either. He was on and off during his career.

Check rosters, they're down as DH not 1B or RF or any of that, DH. Edgar has played 1B to but he was horrible so he didn't play much 1B.

[Penning10]

Edgar has been a full time DH since 1992. The other guys you mentioned are only listed at DH because their team needs to put somebody there. There's only one other full time DH in the entire league (Josh Phelps).

[AO street ballin]

Edgar has been a full time DH since 1992. The other guys you mentioned are only listed at DH because their team needs to put somebody there. There's only one other full time DH in the entire league (Josh Phelps).

Not true. You don't have to have a DH position like Toranto doesn't have one. Neither do the Yankees. So their job is DH, but they can be asked to field.

[Penning10]

Who cares?

Bottom line: Huff is not a DH.

[AO street ballin]

Who cares?

Bottom line: Huff is not a DH.

Ok Huff may not be, but the other 2 are, and so are many more (David Ortiz, Jose Offerman)

[bravest]

Huff has played 98/115 games this year in the field, as well as 132/162 last year. Definitely not a full time DH.

Broussard has started 70 games at first this season.

Molitor was never really a full time DH either. He was on and off during his career.
That's exactly how Edgar started out, at third baseman (as did Huff) and first base (I'm sure Huff will be there sooner or later).

[Penning10]

Ok Huff may not be, but the other 2 are, and so are many more (David Ortiz, Jose Offerman)
There are people that DH (obviously). There are no others that are full time at that position.

Jose Offerman is a bench player.

[AO street ballin]

There are people that DH (obviously). There are no others that are full time at that position.

Jose Offerman is a bench player.

But they're all still DH's. They're actually position is to play DH, but they CAN be asked to play the field. Look at the rosters on MLB.com and you'll see there are DH position players.

[Penning10]

There are guys listed at DH, but none of them spend full time at DH.

[AO street ballin]

There are guys listed at DH, but none of them spend full time at DH.

Alot will now because look at Ortiz earlier this season, Brossard can't field for anything, and Tampa has Carl Crawford, Jose Cruz, and Rocco Baldeli.

[Penning10]

Huff has been Tampa's starting 3B for most of the season.

As bad as they might be in the field, they are still in the field. If it makes you feel any better, then fine, Edgar Martinez is a better DH than Ben Broussard at this point in both of their careers.

Edgar still remains the only full time DH.

[AO street ballin]

Huff has been Tampa's starting 3B for most of the season.

As bad as they might be in the field, they are still in the field. If it makes you feel any better, then fine, Edgar Martinez is a better DH than Ben Broussard at this point in both of their careers.

Edgar still remains the only full time DH.

Edgar has played field, not much, but he has. He's played as much as Broussard.

[Penning10]

Not at all, Edgar has been a full time DH for 12 years. Broussard has started 70 games at first base this year alone.

[AO street ballin]

Not at all, Edgar has been a full time DH for 12 years. Broussard has started 70 games at first base this year alone.

Which part of Edgar has played the field don't you understand?

[Penning10]

Which part of 'Edgar has been a full time DH since 1994', do you not understand.

[AO street ballin]

Which part of 'Edgar has been a full time DH since 1994', do you not understand.

He HAS played the field so sayin he's a full time DH and not sayin the same for Broussard or Huff is contradictive.

[Penning10]

It isn't contradictive at all; just look at the freakin' stat sheets! Edgar hasn't played in the field more than once or twice since 1994, and hasn't played in the field at all since 2001. Huff and Broussard are starting at 1B and 3B for their respective teams this year.

Bottom line here, something that you've avoided this entire time; What has Edgar done that makes him a Legend? What has he done that makes him one of the best of all time?

[AO street ballin]

It isn't contradictive at all; just look at the freakin' stat sheets! Edgar hasn't played in the field more than once or twice since 1994, and hasn't played in the field at all since 2001. Huff and Broussard are starting at 1B and 3B for their respective teams this year.

Bottom line here, something that you've avoided this entire time; What has Edgar done that makes him a Legend? What has he done that makes him one of the best of all time?

No i haven't avoided that. If you would pay attention, I put up stats earlier if you want I can again.

[Penning10]

The stats are nothing special. He has done nothing on the field to warrant a hall of fame election.

[AO street ballin]

The stats are nothing special. He has done nothing on the field to warrant a hall of fame election.

So any pitcher who never had atleast a average of .250 battin can't get in either.

[Penning10]

Now you're just twisting my words around.

If you're trying to plead Edgar's case based on stats, then they better be stellar.

[AO street ballin]

Now you're just twisting my words around.

If you're trying to plead Edgar's case based on stats, then they better be stellar.

Why if some guys in the hall had over 100 something errors in their career, where as Edgar was smart and didn't make a fool of himself?

[Penning10]

Why if some guys in the hall had over 100 something errors in their career, where as Edgar was smart and didn't make a fool of himself?
It depends on the player..

I really don't know how that's relevant here..

[AO street ballin]

It depends on the player..

I really don't know how that's relevant here..

Like Manny, he's a great great hitter who will make it to the HOF, but he has 51 errors. Chances are by the time he stops playin, he'll have near 100, but he makes it to the HOF right? Right, because he had good hittin stats. So does Edgar. When over your career you can be in the Top 100 anything in the MLB, your pretty damn good. He's in more than just 1 thing, too.

[Penning10]

Right, because he had good hittin stats. So does Edgar.
Edgar doesn't even begin compare to Ramirez offensively, and Ramirez isn't even a sure thing at this point.

[X-Factor]

manny will be a DH when he retires

[Penning10]

More than likely. :smile:

[AO street ballin]

More than likely. :smile:

And then he'll still have a whole lot of errors and such from bein a suckass outfielder. Edgar just didn't make a fool of himself and he was a very consistant batter. Just because he didn't get 200 RBIs in a season or 50 HRs doesn't mean he's not a good hitter. All the stats I showed you show he's a good hitter.

[Penning10]

That's a very weak arguement. He didn't play the field because he'd get embarrassed? Maybe, but that doesn't get him into the hall of fame, at all.

Like I said, he is a good hitter, but good hitters don't make it into the hall of fame.

[Penning10]

Ok, I think I've found a way to sum it up:

I'm NOT against Edgar because he is a DH. In my eyes, playing bad defense or no defense cannot keep a player out of the hall of fame. However, playing great defense can help you into the Hall, and even playing in the field (no matter what defensive quality) at SS, 2B, C or even CF can help your chances if you have a good bat.

With that said, the only thing Edgar did on the field was hit, so that is the only thing we can judge him on, and the only skill of his that could put him in the hall of fame. Is Edgar a Hall of Fame or Legendary hitter? No. Is he even one of the best hitters of his time? No.

Yes, he was a very big influence in his city. He is not alone there; there are plenty of other guys around the league that do the same. I can't really comment on other teams, because I don't really know, but Al Leiter and John Franco have been big in the New York community for a long time. Both will go down as two of the best Mets ever, and will probably go into the Mets Hall. While Franco has an outside chance at making it to Cooperstown, it won't be entirely because of this.

IMO, I think that is the perfect example. What Edgar has been as a hitter and as a player, Al Leiter has been as a pitcher and a player.

[AO street ballin]

But we let Griffey in with a lower hittin avg., but only because he hit 500 HRs (might i add after 19 or 20 other guys and there will be a lot more before he retires)? How does that make sense. Just because Edgar doesn't have Bonds numbers doesn't mean he can't get in. Just because he didn't break a record or such.

[Penning10]

Not only because he hit 500 homers. He was in before he hit 450, he was the best player of the 90s.

[AO street ballin]

1. I don't think he was the BEST player of the 90's and 2 why wouldn't he have less of a chance since his numbers slipped so drastically? Edgar was atleast consistant and not injured for 4 years.

[Penning10]

Consistency doesn't get you into the hall of fame. Griffey was the best player on the field in the 90s. If he wasn't, then who was?

[AO street ballin]

Consistency doesn't get you into the hall of fame. Griffey was the best player on the field in the 90s. If he wasn't, then who was?

Clemens, Jeter, even Randy Johnson. Jeter just started later but did win, let me get it right, 3 world series for the Yankees in that time.

So your going to say just because Brady Anderson hit 50 HR's in one season and sucked every other year he should be in. Players in the HOF are there mostly for they're consistantly good.

[Penning10]

I never, EVER said Brady Anderson should be in the hall of fame. My answer for him is an emphatic NO!

Jeter!? The best player of the 90s!? Come on now! It was Griffey and there's no debating that.

[AO street ballin]

I never, EVER said Brady Anderson should be in the hall of fame. My answer for him is an emphatic NO!

Jeter!? The best player of the 90s!? Come on now! It was Griffey and there's no debating that.

Did Griffey lead his team to 3, count them, 3 World Series championships in the 90's. Jeter didn't even start playin until '96 so he didn't get a real fair shot at it.

[Penning10]

I'm not even going to acknowledge that with a thought out response. Good day.

[AO street ballin]

Because I'm right and you know it.

[SharksandAsFan]

Yes, the AL decided to make the designated pitcher a position, therefore he should get just as much consideration as he would if he played shortstop.

[AO street ballin]

Sharks knows what he's talkin about.

[Penning10]

Yes, the AL decided to make the designated pitcher a position, therefore he should get just as much consideration as he would if he played shortstop.
So should we let some other guys in? What about the best utility infielder? The best pinch hitter? What about the best middle reliever? the 'best at your position' arguement for the hall of fame only holds water for somebody that plays the field. This guy was a great hitter, and he was servicable at 2B, this guy was an awesome hitter and he was a catcher. 'The best DH of all time'...he's the only DH of all time.

A player gets into the hall of fame because he has done something better than all - - or at the very least, better than most. Edgar's only job on the field was to hit, and his bat definitely does not get him into the hall of fame.

[AO street ballin]

So should we let some other guys in? What about the best utility infielder? The best pinch hitter? What about the best middle reliever? the 'best at your position' arguement for the hall of fame only holds water for somebody that plays the field. This guy was a great hitter, and he was servicable at 2B, this guy was an awesome hitter and he was a catcher. 'The best DH of all time'...he's the only DH of all time.

A player gets into the hall of fame because he has done something better than all - - or at the very least, better than most. Edgar's only job on the field was to hit, and his bat definitely does not get him into the hall of fame.

I show you everysingle last stat and you say he wasn't better than most people? Bein in the top 100 mean you're better than A LOT of people. So you can't say he wasn't better than anyone.

[Magus Relmyn]

Edgar has my vote, but he's a DH, so I doubt he'll get the MLBPA's vote. :o

[Penning10]

I show you everysingle last stat and you say he wasn't better than most people? Bein in the top 100 mean you're better than A LOT of people. So you can't say he wasn't better than anyone.
He found the top 100 in 1 or 2 stats, both percentage based ones. Suddenly that is every single stat?

[AO street ballin]

Five things thank you and what is the most important thing to a player? Percentage. Look at Ichiro. Doesn't get a lot of RBI's or HR's but has a great percentage and that's why any team could use him. Edgar may not have the most RBI's (but he's only a few off of the top 100) or HR's but he hit for percentage.

[Penning10]

Ichiro gets on base, steals bases, hits for very high average, and is a lock for 200 hits a season.

Ichiro > Martinez. Ichiro could be an all time great when he's done.

Edgar isn't.

[AO street ballin]

Carrer .312 avg isn' good at all right. Yeah, some guys can't hit that in a season.... actually a lot of guys.

[bravest]

So should we let some other guys in? What about the best utility infielder? The best pinch hitter? What about the best middle reliever? the 'best at your position' arguement for the hall of fame only holds water for somebody that plays the field. This guy was a great hitter, and he was servicable at 2B, this guy was an awesome hitter and he was a catcher. 'The best DH of all time'...he's the only DH of all time.

A player gets into the hall of fame because he has done something better than all - - or at the very least, better than most. Edgar's only job on the field was to hit, and his bat definitely does not get him into the hall of fame.
Utility isn't a position. Neither is a pinch hitter. DH is, there ya go. :)

[Penning10]

Utility isn't a position. Neither is a pinch hitter. DH is, there ya go. :)
They all get spots on the roster. What's the difference?

Bottom line, Edgar did not do his job good enough to rank in the top 10 or 20 of the last decade, nevermind all time.

[AO street ballin]

No they don't. They get put on a roster. It doesn't say on a MLB roster "Grady Sizemore Pinch Hitter" or "Jose Valentine Utility".

Plus what you just said is wrong too. Hittin .312 in a carrer is pretty damn good for a lot of people.

[bravest]

No they don't. They get put on a roster. It doesn't say on a MLB roster "Grady Sizemore Pinch Hitter" or "Jose Valentine Utility".

Plus what you just said is wrong too. Hittin .312 in a carrer is pretty damn good for a lot of people.
I would have said the same the had I seen his post first. *nod*

[Penning10]

Plus what you just said is wrong too. Hittin .312 in a carrer is pretty damn good for a lot of people.
1 or 2 stats does not put one in the top 10 or even top 20. Still too many guys ahead of him to let him in.

BTW, Edgar is still the only DH.

[AO street ballin]

1 or 2 stats does not put one in the top 10 or even top 20. Still too many guys ahead of him to let him in.

BTW, Edgar is still the only DH.

BTW, Roger Clemens (not a very good hitter), Pedro Martinez, and any other AL pitcher is only a pitcher. Got to play both sides of the inning to be a real player, like you seem to be sayin.

[Penning10]

BTW, Roger Clemens (not a very good hitter), Pedro Martinez, and any other AL pitcher is only a pitcher. Got to play both sides of the inning to be a real player, like you seem to be sayin.
I have never said that, not once. I have stated, however, that playing a certain position can get you into a hall of fame, and only in the cases of SS, 2B, C and CF. Also, as previously stated, playing bad defense or no defense does not keep you out (but it definitely does not help your case).

All Edgar did was bat, and in order for him to be ranked among the best of all time, he must be judged on his bat. Even throwing out the entire defensive arguement, he does not rank among the top 10 (possibly even the top 20) offensive players of the last decade.

[AO street ballin]

I have never said that, not once. I have stated, however, that playing a certain position can get you into a hall of fame, and only in the cases of SS, 2B, C and CF. Also, as previously stated, playing bad defense or no defense does not keep you out (but it definitely does not help your case).

All Edgar did was bat, and in order for him to be ranked among the best of all time, he must be judged on his bat. Even throwing out the entire defensive arguement, he does not rank among the top 10 (possibly even the top 20) offensive players of the last decade.

Overall, yes he does atleast top 20. He may not have all the HR's but he has average and OBP. Those are in the top 3 most important stats for any player at all. I'd rather have a guy who can bat .305 with 12 HR's than a guy who'll bat .259 with 34 HR's.

[Penning10]

Off the top of my head and in no particular order...
Ramirez, Bonds, Griffey, McGwire, Sosa, Ripken, Gwynn, Henderson, Palmeiro, Piazza and Alex Rodriguez; all hall of famers. After that we get into Alomar, Edmonds, Thome, Bagwell, Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, Bernie Williams, Larry Walker, and even Fred McGriff (though I'm not a big Crime Dog supporter). Then we've got the latest group of players that haven't been around for too long: Garciaparra, Helton, Guerrero, Giambi, Pujols, Jeter (if we're talking '96-'00 Jeter).

Guarenteed I missed a bunch of players, like I said, this was just off the top of my head.

[AO street ballin]

Juan Gon (love him but no) and if you say Bernie can then so can Edgar. Same with Larry and Fred.

[bravest]

Off the top of my head and in no particular order...
Ramirez, Bonds, Griffey, McGwire, Sosa, Ripken, Gwynn, Henderson, Palmeiro, Piazza and Alex Rodriguez; all hall of famers. After that we get into Alomar, Edmonds, Thome, Bagwell, Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, Bernie Williams, Larry Walker, and even Fred McGriff (though I'm not a big Crime Dog supporter). Then we've got the latest group of players that haven't been around for too long: Garciaparra, Helton, Guerrero, Giambi, Pujols, Jeter (if we're talking '96-'00 Jeter).

Guarenteed I missed a bunch of players, like I said, this was just off the top of my head.
Alomar > Edgar? Don't think so...
Larry Walker > Edgar? Yeah right...

Perhaps you haven't had the chance to actually look at Edgar's stats lately?

[AO street ballin]

Alomar > Edgar? Don't think so...
Larry Walker > Edgar? Yeah right...

Perhaps you haven't had the chance to actually look at Edgar's stats lately?

I posted them twice.

[Penning10]

Alomar > Edgar? Don't think so...
Larry Walker > Edgar? Yeah right...

Perhaps you haven't had the chance to actually look at Edgar's stats lately?
Alomar played gold glove second base while hitting for average, power and displaying speed on the basepaths.

Walker hit for much higher average, hit for much better power, and was even a base stealer while playing gold glove right field.

Another guy I left out; Chipper Jones.

[AO street ballin]

Maybe I should kill myself now that you said that.

[Penning10]

Go for it :). You haven't said anything reasonable yet.

[AO street ballin]

Go for it :). You haven't said anything reasonable yet.

Now your telling me to kill myself? Wow thank you. Well if we're talkin about sayin reasonable things and killin ourselves over it, shouldn't you have died like 3 weeks ago?

Anyway, Edgar is just as good or better than those guys (especially Chipper). What you said about Robbie, what happened to throw out the fieldin. He never really hit for power, think about it.

[Penning10]

Now your telling me to kill myself? Wow thank you. Well if we're talkin about sayin reasonable things and killin ourselves over it, shouldn't you have died like 3 weeks ago?
You said it, not I.

Anyway, Edgar is just as good or better than those guys (especially Chipper). What you said about Robbie, what happened to throw out the fieldin. He never really hit for power, think about it.
He is not even close. Every player mentioned is the complete package, Edgar is a very incomplete package.

[bravest]

Ok, Sandman... some of your points I actually agree on, I just never said that before this. :)

But the fact is, that he was the best player at his position. I know that we've said that many times before this, but it just seems like you've blown it off. Think about it.

[AO street ballin]

Off the top of my head and in no particular order...
Ramirez, Bonds, Griffey, McGwire, Sosa, Ripken, Gwynn, Henderson, Palmeiro, Piazza and Alex Rodriguez; all hall of famers. After that we get into Alomar, Edmonds, Thome, Bagwell, Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, Bernie Williams, Larry Walker, and even Fred McGriff (though I'm not a big Crime Dog supporter). Then we've got the latest group of players that haven't been around for too long: Garciaparra, Helton, Guerrero, Giambi, Pujols, Jeter (if we're talking '96-'00 Jeter).

Guarenteed I missed a bunch of players, like I said, this was just off the top of my head.

Complete package?

Manny can't field
Griffey can't stay on the field
Sosa can't hit for average at all
Thome can only and only hit a HR or just strike-out no average
Same with Gonzalez (without as many HR's)
Walker is not even ever talked about
McGriff just hit 500 HR's after 23 or less other guys.

[Penning10]

that he was the best player at his position.
He is the ONLY player at his position. The only time that applies to anything, is when a player is doing what he does better than anyone else of all time. Mike Piazza is the best hitting catcher ever. Roberto Alomar is one of (if not THE) best hitter and fielder at 2B of all time. Edgar Martinez is the best hitting hitter of all time?

[AO street ballin]

That isn't what he was sayin dip. He is the best DH (and yes there are other pure DH's aka people who can't field and only play field when need be (ie David Ortiz, Travis Hafner/ Ben Brousard, etc.))

[Penning10]

That isn't what he was sayin dip. He is the best DH (and yes there are other pure DH's aka people who can't field and only play field when need be (ie David Ortiz, Travis Hafner/ Ben Brousard, etc.))
All of the players mentioned have started the majority of the games this season in the field. Arguement holds 0 weight.

[AO street ballin]

All of the players mentioned have started the majority of the games this season in the field. Arguement holds 0 weight.

Yeah but are they good at the position they're put at? No and neither was Edgar when he played field.

[Penning10]

The fact of the matter is, they are not DHs. Edgar is the only full time DH.

[AO street ballin]

Moliter was a full time DH the last 5 years of his carrer now wasn't he? And didn't he get in the HOF?

[Penning10]

Yes, the last 5 years of his career.

He was also better than Edgar.

[AO street ballin]

No he wasn't. HE HIT FOR AVERAGE. Just like Edgar does. Moliter hit less than 200 HR's in his career and if you ask anyone he was a DH and not a fielder. He went into the hall as a DH.

[Penning10]

I won't argue that he spent considerable time at DH, because he did; and while Edgar and Molitor seem to be comparable hitters, Molitor did well and hit for better over an extended period of time; You could still argue he was a better hitter than Martinez based on how many times Molitor hit over .340 or .330...BUT, IMO the only reason Molitor is in the hall of fame is because he lasted 20 years and collected 3,000 hits.

[AO street ballin]

Well if you can give an avg. hitter, who went in as a DH mind you, a place in the HOF the you can Edgar. Just to make this clear, yes Edgar has played field but he wasn't good at all so they put him as a DH. They have a place for him just for the fact that he did play for 18 years and was with the same team his whole career. If you seriously think about it, if he wasn't good, why would they have kept him so long?

[Penning10]

So now he should be in the hall of fame because he stuck with his team for 18 years? That's gotta be the biggest reach so far...

[AO street ballin]

I'm not sayin that thats the only reason, but it might help some.

[Penning10]

Not at all.

[AO street ballin]

Now why wouldn't it help him AT ALL?

[Penning10]

Who in their right mind is going to come across Edgar and vote for him with that in mind?

Let's see here...

I've got one vote left, who's eligible?

Well, there's Edgar Martinez.

Hmmm...he was never a really good fielder, he was a decent hitter.

Well, it says here he played with the Mariners for 18 years.

!? Put me down for Edgar.

[AO street ballin]

DECENT???? Top 100 in 5-6 stats buddy. That's not decent. And what team would keep a player 18 years if he wasn't that good?