when will we know facts

[madblazer]

hey, when does everybody think we will know hard facts about the ps3 and other systems.

[RichardCypher101]

E3 2005, TGS 2005.

-Rich

[senas8]

next year buddy ...following the E3 Show.

[Theo]

I think we will see some facts before (not much before though) E3...That way Sony can get the hype to the max and everybody will talk like "What kind of graphix we'll be seeing at E3 with that kind of power"...

[amod20002004]

It will be really interesting to see what kind of graphics ps3 will show. We only know that ps3 is going to show CGI quality graphics, but which kind of CGI is really unknown. Our discussion suggests that ps3 might show FF8 to FFX kind of graphics, while Oni’s developers have mentioned something different and totally unexpected statement about ps3’s graphics.

[Xeno]

It will be really interesting to see what kind of graphics ps3 will show. We only know that ps3 is going to show CGI quality graphics, but which kind of CGI is really unknown. Our discussion suggests that ps3 might show FF8 to FFX kind of graphics, while Oni’s developers have mentioned something different and totally unexpected statement about ps3’s graphics.

Do you have a link to the Oni statement i havent seen it? :cry:

I wonder if the PS3s final tech will be locked down and finished by E3...or will we be seeing a watered down version of the PS3 and its hardware?

[axia777]

E3! Which I hope I will be at. My school provieds admission to E3, but we have to pay for room and board. E3, soooo sweet. i plan to bring a Digi camera to post pics on this site. So at E3 next year Sony will drop the super bomb news in the form of PS3! :D

[MegaGrid]

We will know in December how IBM is going use the CELL processor.
We know some things about CELL. The graphics is the most important thing for a console, but IBM is going to build a multimedia workstation which means graphics... so lets wait and see in December and then lets see what SONY is going to do for Graphics which I believe is going to be amazing.

Alexander.

[DappaDizzle]

im guessing around march

[xbdestroya]

MegaGrid's right that the initial inferences we'll be able to make about PS3 will be from the workstation release in December, assuming everything goes smoothly.

NextBox is supposed to be announced early January, so should be some more info on that then.



We will know in December how IBM is going use the CELL processor.
We know some things about CELL. The graphics is the most important thing for a console, but IBM is going to build a multimedia workstation which means graphics... so lets wait and see in December and then lets see what SONY is going to do for Graphics which I believe is going to be amazing.

Alexander.

[The_One]

Sony has said that they will release some info during March 2005. Which is BEFORE E3 2005 :D.

[Domination]

MegaGrid's right that the initial inferences we'll be able to make about PS3 will be from the workstation release in December, assuming everything goes smoothly.

NextBox is supposed to be announced early January, so should be some more info on that then.



We will know in December how IBM is going use the CELL processor.
We know some things about CELL. The graphics is the most important thing for a console, but IBM is going to build a multimedia workstation which means graphics... so lets wait and see in December and then lets see what SONY is going to do for Graphics which I believe is going to be amazing.

Alexander.

That will be the sample version, but I guess it still counts.

[amod20002004]

Do you have a link to the Oni statement i havent seen it? :cry:

I wonder if the PS3s final tech will be locked down and finished by E3...or will we be seeing a watered down version of the PS3 and its hardware?
Here is a shibusawa’s statement about in game ps3 graphics. It is common sense that he would never misguide readers. He just wants to give us hint about ps3. He just trying to gives us a hint about what to expect from ps3.



Koei has never made a movie-licensed game before -- it's generally preferred to work with subject matter at least 500 years old, and often two or three times that. Perhaps it was just waiting for the right script, though, a script its creators could help write.

Today, Koei announced that Kou Shibusawa, creator of the Nobunaga's Ambition series, will collaborate on the completion of an unfinished script by film legend Akira Kurosawa, while also directing a videogame based on the resulting movie.

Oni -- the name means "demon" -- is the story of a blond-haired samurai, son of a Japanese lord and a Western woman, fighting in Japan's civil wars during the 16th century. The film will be directed by Kurosawa's son Hisao (in his film directing debut), while Shibusawa will work with Kurosawa to finish the movie's script. The game, meanwhile, will be a "historical action" title with a heavy role-playing component for the successor to Sony's current PlayStation 2 console. The total budget for both projects together is estimated at 3 billion yen (about $28 million).

"When reading Hisao Kurosawa's script," Shibusawa said at a recent press conference to announce the collaboration, "it gave me the impression of stories like 'Seven Samurai' and 'The Hidden Fortress' -- I felt the common DNA between him and Akira Kurosawa."

Shibusawa jokingly said he's forbidden to say anything about the capabilities of Sony's next-generation console, but he did say he expects to very closely replicate the appearance of the actors from the film in the game.

Over a career lasting more than 50 years, Akira Kurosawa established himself as Japan's leading film director. His most famous movies, like Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, and The Hidden Fortress, directly inspired Western creations ranging from Sergio Leone's "spaghetti westerns" to George Lucas' Star Wars.

Koei and Kurosawa Production plan to simultaneously release the Oni game and movie some time in 2006. That dovetails neatly with Sony's announced timetable for the debut of its next-generation console late in the same year.

Both the game and the film are in the very early stages of production -- auditions for actors to play the two lead roles aren't beginning until the first of next month. However, Koei's already planning to develop the property into many more different forms of media, so we'll see how the project grows and proliferates over the coming year.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3135945

[madblazer]

will this oni game be exlusive to ps3.??????

[amod20002004]

will this oni game be exlusive to ps3.??????
Actually answer of your question is No. This game has been announced for three consoles including ps3. Let’s hope that we might see in game graphics of ps3 as good as his statement in above quote.

[rev>thanu]

well if that's true then like i said FFX is not impossible, now imagine if this now, basically first gen title for ps3. imagine almost to the end of it's life cycle. :shock:

[amod20002004]

well if that's true then like i said FFX is not impossible, now imagine if this now, basically first gen title for ps3. imagine almost to the end of it's life cycle. :shock:
Yes, if this is what we are going to see at next E3 then ps3 might go ahead of FFX CGI. Ps3 might show something unexpected.

[Theo]

well if that's true then like i said FFX is not impossible, now imagine if this now, basically first gen title for ps3. imagine almost to the end of it's life cycle. :shock:
Yes, if this is what we are going to see at next E3 then ps3 might go ahead of FFX CGI. Ps3 might show something unexpected.

Have you watched FFX's CGI lately!? Because I'm tellin' you they still look very good. I think there's no way that the Ps3 can pull all the FFX's cutscenes in real time, some simpler parts of them maybe, just maybe, but I doubt it. I hope I'm wrong, but I think it's too much for next gen consoles to handle...

[amod20002004]

Have you watched FFX's CGI lately!? Because I'm tellin' you they still look very good. I think there's no way that the Ps3 can pull all the FFX's cutscenes in real time, some simpler parts of them maybe, just maybe, but I doubt it. I hope I'm wrong, but I think it's too much for next gen consoles to handle...
I recommend you to read Rev>thanu’s post in CGI quality graphics a reality part1. You might find that post on page no.35 to 40. Search for it. That post will clear all your doubts.

[amod20002004]

Here is his post. I hope that it will clear all your doubts. Yes, and one main point, it is not necessary that ps3 will pull exact copy of final fantasyX CGI in every area as in game graphics. Read below post.

I will restate my earlier comments, ps3 will be able to pull final fantasy X CGI closer half way or at the end of it's life cycle. It's not a question of technicalities because clearly who gives a dam about how it faires up to CGs interms power. when really in the end the consumer will only be looking at the end result of things. look at Halo 2, do people really care weather the game uses less polygons than killzone. well heck no, people care about what they see and halo 2 looks better than Killzone even if from a technical point killzone might be far superior.

Really so when i mean ps3 will pull FFX CGI, i mean it from an artistic point of view and how things will look as an end result. I still don't know why the heck people here say that FFX will be reached from a technical stand point or say that i said that. Raytracying is out of the pic but really people is Raytraycing necesarry for this coming generation of games?. Games are played from a certain angle and the camera has a certain distance from the character. On a CG movie you usually have things on a closer camera view and a closer angle. Even with a machine that does raytraycing in real time your not going to see all reflections, refraction, etc etc in the game without having to a zoom in. most games don't offer a zoom in options. So what i mean most of the detail in a game is seen from a far. So to tell you guys the truth with a lighting system 3 times that which we have seen on Unreal 3.0 engine, I feel is more than enough to get effects similar to raytraycing and almost Indistinguishably identical.
Now imagine something with 3 times the lighting power of that. I mean really would you guys actually stay there and pay attention to weather or not light actually hit or bounced of every grass blade or leaf. NO i don't think so, what you will be looking for is if light bounce off mayor areas like a wall or huge rocks etc. Obviously with the technique unreal 3.0 is using that has been accomplished.

Now in the geometry department here is how i see things, Ps3 will be able to pull geometry as good as FF8. What i don't see though is all the hair strands on a model's head being replicated. againg characters and detail will be seen from a far and i highly doubt that you will be able to even see 10 hair strands together from a far distance if it were possible. So againg FF8 geometry will be possible here on characters and backgrounds. The rest is up to the bump mapping to fill in the gap between FF8 CGI and FFX. As you guys can see bump mapping is really a great technique to fill in that gap and trust me the bump mapping seen on Unreal 3.0 engine does not look like that cheap bump mapping halo 2 and doom 3 and chronicles of riddick have used. The bump mapping of unreal 3.0 is so good that you really can't tell wheter or not is actual polygons being used here.

in terms of textures the main Ram or XDram is 8 times faster than the Ram used on the GScube 16 and 64. Really while the GScube had way more Ram, the ps3's ram is far faster though. So really, here comes that comment againg that you all say. Is better to have a faster Ram than have a huge amount of it. The same applies to video Ram, while the GScube does have way more ram, the ps3's video Ram will be 20 - 30% faster than the Gscube's ram including the Gscube 64. now imagine, we have seen how Ram has worked wonders on the Gscube with that real time demo of final fantasy the spirits within. Now remember final fantasy X's texture is no where near the movie's so ps3 having that faster Ram i believe that the texture quality of FFX can be really replicated. just look at how great dawn looked for the Geforce FX. yeah this was one character on screen running on a pentium 4 of like 2.5ghz with a geforce fx focusing all of it's power only on her. now imagine that character running on ps3 that has 200 times the power of that pentium 4. so imagine you can make like 10 dawns on a real time complex background and maybe still have power to spare. Now that's if the GPU can performe as great as the CPU which were all sure hoping for and so far the from Ram information from the patents and the collada project, it seems that ps3 will have the best tools in the business coming from alias wavefront and discreet(creators of 2 of the best 3d programs in the world) and also the library of the open Gl format will be in there too. So really with all that said i can see FFX graphics running on my ps3.

[Danji]

I believe him, and I always thought that they would reach somewhere about there.

[Theo]

We might get similar level of visuals compared to FFX CGI with a load of tricks and that's good, but I don't believe that it will look as good as the FFX CGI with high poly models and lightings.

[stanDarsh]

I agree with Theo, I think FFX CG is asking way too much here! FFVIIIs CG is where I believe the level of PS3 graphics will be at. Although just saying that, Some parts of FFVIIIs CG I dont believe can be truly replicated ingame with PS3, such as the feathers on Squalls jacket and the abundance of flowers in the meadow with Rinoa. However I also believe somethings will look better such as facial detail, animations and skin textures.

[Theo]

I agree with Theo, I think FFX CG is asking way too much here! FFVIIIs CG is where I believe the level of PS3 graphics will be at. Although just saying that, Some parts of FFVIIIs CG I dont believe can be truly replicated ingame with PS3, such as the feathers on Squalls jacket and the abundance of flowers in the meadow with Rinoa. However I also believe somethings will look better such as facial detail, animations and skin textures.

Words of wisdom :) .

[Domination]

I agree with Theo, I think FFX CG is asking way too much here! FFVIIIs CG is where I believe the level of PS3 graphics will be at. Although just saying that, Some parts of FFVIIIs CG I dont believe can be truly replicated ingame with PS3, such as the feathers on Squalls jacket and the abundance of flowers in the meadow with Rinoa. However I also believe somethings will look better such as facial detail, animations and skin textures.

I disagree. Silent Hill 3 and 4 from the PS2 was closer to this market. FFVIII being the PS3's max performance is does not sound right at all, especially when you have a dated Pentium 4 doing something like Dawn. There's a chart showing you just how weak the Pentium processor is compared to what Sony has achieved and is heading next. The results are close to two generations ahead. Also, if Microsoft thought the Pentium prossessor was worth any risk, they would have gone with it by now.

The features you saw in FFVIII is far from anythign spectacular. If you look at Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles for the GCN, it pulls off similiar detailon one of the characters.

I'm not sure if you saw Metal Gear 3:Snake Eater, but in there is a small scene where dozens of dasies are being displayed at once, and I must say they done with incredible detail.

Although it's still vague on how powerful next-gen will be, I doubt it'll stop at FFVIII.

[amod20002004]

I disagree. Silent Hill 3 and 4 from the PS2 was closer to this market. FFVIII being the PS3's max performance is does not sound right at all, especially when you have a dated Pentium 4 doing something like Dawn. There's a chart showing you just how weak the Pentium processor is compared to what Sony has achieved and is heading next. The results are close to two generations ahead. Also, if Microsoft thought the Pentium prossessor was worth any risk, they would have gone with it by now.

The features you saw in FFVIII is far from anythign spectacular. If you look at Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles for the GCN, it pulls off similiar detailon one of the characters.

I'm not sure if you saw Metal Gear 3:Snake Eater, but in there is a small scene where dozens of dasies are being displayed at once, and I must say they done with incredible detail.

Although it's still vague on how powerful next-gen will be, I doubt it'll stop at FFVIII.
I am with domination. I am absolutely agreed with him.

[Theo]

I disagree. Silent Hill 3 and 4 from the PS2 was closer to this market. FFVIII being the PS3's max performance is does not sound right at all, especially when you have a dated Pentium 4 doing something like Dawn. There's a chart showing you just how weak the Pentium processor is compared to what Sony has achieved and is heading next. The results are close to two generations ahead. Also, if Microsoft thought the Pentium prossessor was worth any risk, they would have gone with it by now.

The features you saw in FFVIII is far from anythign spectacular. If you look at Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles for the GCN, it pulls off similiar detailon one of the characters.

I'm not sure if you saw Metal Gear 3:Snake Eater, but in there is a small scene where dozens of dasies are being displayed at once, and I must say they done with incredible detail.

Although it's still vague on how powerful next-gen will be, I doubt it'll stop at FFVIII.
I am with domination. I am absolutely agreed with him.


Just like kevindenoyette wrote: "Don't get your hopes up". :wink:

Although I truely wish that after seeing the ps3's real time graphix, I could come here and say that you guys were right...

[stanDarsh]

I agree with Theo, I think FFX CG is asking way too much here! FFVIIIs CG is where I believe the level of PS3 graphics will be at. Although just saying that, Some parts of FFVIIIs CG I dont believe can be truly replicated ingame with PS3, such as the feathers on Squalls jacket and the abundance of flowers in the meadow with Rinoa. However I also believe somethings will look better such as facial detail, animations and skin textures.

I disagree. Silent Hill 3 and 4 from the PS2 was closer to this market. FFVIII being the PS3's max performance is does not sound right at all, especially when you have a dated Pentium 4 doing something like Dawn. There's a chart showing you just how weak the Pentium processor is compared to what Sony has achieved and is heading next. The results are close to two generations ahead. Also, if Microsoft thought the Pentium prossessor was worth any risk, they would have gone with it by now.

The features you saw in FFVIII is far from anythign spectacular. If you look at Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles for the GCN, it pulls off similiar detailon one of the characters.

I'm not sure if you saw Metal Gear 3:Snake Eater, but in there is a small scene where dozens of dasies are being displayed at once, and I must say they done with incredible detail.

Although it's still vague on how powerful next-gen will be, I doubt it'll stop at FFVIII.

Dated Pentium 4 never was doing Dawn in the first place, after all Dawn is to do with Nvidia graphics cards and also is a tech demo! You will not see a game using those graphics cards where all characters in the game look just as detailed as Dawn, with stunning environments and good A.I. With PS3 however this might be possible!

This is why I believe FF8s CG is about what I expect from PS3. Would anyone be disappointed if PS3 graphics looked like FF8s CG but with much better facial details, animations and skin textures? Domination I know you never mentioned FFX's CG in your post, but what I was maily replying to in my previous post was that I believe that FFX's CG is asking too much of PS3!

[Domination]

The CPU that the Dawn demo used had to be a P4 or something on that level. But, it certainly wasn't anything one of the three next-gen consoles will be using, which is most likely to crush the technology Dawn was using. What you are talking about is iNvidia's GPU. Either way you look at it, if one is lacking, so is the other.

I really don't compare FFX to next-gen due to too many factors, some being good while others bad. One thing that did catch my eye about the PS3's archchitecture,however, was this guy's prediction:

Diagram (http://pcweb.mycom.co.jp/news/2001/02/13/27al.jpg)

Just been re-reading this summary powerpoint presentation on Cell graphics patents by Paul Zimmons,
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~zimmons/Zimmons__CellGFX.ppt (He also did a summary PPT on the original Cell patents, http://www.cs.unc.edu/~zimmons/CELL.ppt )

Here's a bunch of B3D threads discussing some of these patents discussed in the PPT by Dr. Zimmons,

links... (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12027&highlight=apu) , links... (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12899&highlight=apu) , links... (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16430&highlight=) , links... (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11377&highlight=) , links... (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14418&highlight=) , links... (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16124&highlight=)

Anyway, he mainly concentrates on 4 patents in his ppt...
The first one is about rendering by parallel bricks/tiles...
The second describes programming Cell...
The third is about a hardware candidate surrounding the pixelengine (not really discussed at B3D...)
The fourth is another hardware candidate for the pixelengines in the form of Salc/ Salps...

What struck me was that the third patent looks remarkably like the above die with 4 PE's, Shared Cache and a Stream controller,

diagram (http://homepage.mac.com/jabdin/.Pictures/Cell/pixelengine2.jpg)

Now if this prototype die was available for the third patent (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO %2Fsearch-adv.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&p=1&S1=20040075661&OS =20040075661&RS=20040075661), circa 2001, as in the above image, it seems a little too early for a sample pixelengine that may go into Cell graphics for a 2006 console release? Or perhaps this was a prototype GS2, pre Cell?

I was also thinking of the fourth patent (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO %2Fsearch-adv.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&p=1&S1=20030200237&OS =20030200237&RS=20030200237), describing the Salc/ Salps,

diagram (http://homepage.mac.com/jabdin/.Pictures/Cell/Salc.jpg)

There was concern about there not being any TMUs (Texture memory units) in the B3D thread (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12899&postdays=0&postorder=asc&hig hlight=apu&start=0) discussing the Salc/ Salps...but looking at it again, each Salc seems to have local storage in the form of different types of 'latches' in the above diagram. Would this suffice in the absence of TMU's as long as all the Salc/Salps can communicate with each other :? ?

diagram (http://homepage.mac.com/jabdin/.Pictures/Cell/pixelengine.jpg)

The other thing that struck me was that each Salc/ Salp array consists of 32 Salcs= 1 Salp and there are 256 Salps that make a PixelEngine. Each salp is capable of 'one' 32bit operation with full pipelines. Therefore 'one' pixelengine is capable of 256 operations (Flops and Ops?). Four Pixelengines = 4* 256 = 1024 Ops per cycle with full piplelines.

diagram (http://homepage.mac.com/jabdin/.Pictures/Cell/PS3-block.png)

So looking at the GPU, 4 Pixelengines would provide 1024 32bit OPs/Flops per cycle.
The 16 Apus (each APU is capable of 8 Ops per cycle) would provide 8*16= 128 32bit OPs/Flops per cycle.

The GPU = 128 + 1024 = 1152 32bit Ops/Flops per cycle with full pipelines.

1152* 0.8 (800Mhz) = 921.6 GOPS/GFLOPS for the GPU.

For the CPU, there are 32 APUs and each APU is capable of 8 OPs/Flops per cycle,

The CPU = 32*8= 256 32bit Ops/Flops per cycle with full pipelines.

256*3.6 (3.6Ghz) = 921.6 GOPS/GFLOPS for the CPU

Interestingly the CPU @ 3.6 GHZ = 921.6 Gops/Gflops = GPU @ 800 MHZ!!! A coincidence?

It has a nice symmetry about it where given a fixed process and die area, you should be abe to extract similar processing power by varying clock and logic densities. In this case a 3.6GHz CPU has the same processing power as a 800MHz GPU.

Total PS3 power = CPU + GPU = 921.6 + 921.6 = 1843.2 GOPS/GFLOPS = 1.8432 TFLOPS/TOPS.

What's surprising is the results are strikingly close to what I was predicting from the workstation which Sony claims to be less powerful than the PS3 in its own way.

[Digital_Justice]

Hmm... I've been looking over this forum. Now, a friend of mine's brother works in shipping, and has told us that the PS3's will be in stores Early in the upcoming year, and that they're going to be getting shipments of them at the end of November/ early December.

I've asked my friend to make sure her brother isn't talking out of his ass, obviously, and I'm waiting confirmation. You know, to make sure he wasn't talking about the slim PS2s, or the PSPs...

I'm sure he's confused about which console it is, from what I've read here. But, then again, anything is possible. If it is the PS3, then I'll be damned sure to get one ASAP (That's why I was told about it, so I could get one) and be the envy of...well, everyone really.

Heh. Wishful thinking.

[kevindenoyette]

the ps3...in stores......begin next year? yeah he was obviously wrong there.

[Domination]

Hmm... I've been looking over this forum. Now, a friend of mine's brother works in shipping, and has told us that the PS3's will be in stores Early in the upcoming year, and that they're going to be getting shipments of them at the end of November/ early December.

I've asked my friend to make sure her brother isn't talking out of his ass, obviously, and I'm waiting confirmation. You know, to make sure he wasn't talking about the slim PS2s, or the PSPs...

I'm sure he's confused about which console it is, from what I've read here. But, then again, anything is possible. If it is the PS3, then I'll be damned sure to get one ASAP (That's why I was told about it, so I could get one) and be the envy of...well, everyone really.

Heh. Wishful thinking.

I believe your friend was mistaking the PS3 for this here:close up (http://image.lik-sang.com/content/psx-news/psx-news10.jpg)

http://toshio.typepad.com/photos/sonys_psx/dsc00257.JPG

That's not the PS3; it's more like a suped-up PS2 code named as the PSX. The system is said to launch the US at the end of this year (2004). Seeing how it's new with PlayStation- like features, a lot of people continue to confuse it with the PS3. The PS3 will be an entirely different system -- likely without all the features of the PSX, but it will be a helluva lot more powerful. THAT console is expected to launch around 2006 at the latest, judging by all the information we are getting.