A view at the future of Sony with PSP and PS3

[MegaGrid]

I would like to disagree with the economists predicting Sony economic curve.
First of all comes the PSP with a cost of around $200. Which is region free.
This means that there should be no wait for someone to wait for its release in Japan or USA or Europe. This means that PSP is going to hit the market in December at Christmas making this little gadget a very elegant gift.
I have seen GT4 screenshot in PSP and I was practicaly amazed this means that it is going to be a cult. If I buy PSP I am going to buy it for this game.
If GT4 could hit the market before Christmas then it woud have been far even great. I was expecting the $200 mark and seeing it happening means a lot. This gadget is going to sell and hold the market until 2006 when PS3 goes out. The market of PS3 will not be conflicting with PSP since it is a different philosophy in playing. So PSP is going to live for quite a while after PS3 release. I am saying this because it is going to take some time after the release of the new PSP powered also with the Cell processor. Because this is going to happen since its going in PDAs its going to go in PSP but after a while.
Since I am mostly keen in Racing games I am hoping to see GT5 in PS3 and released by the time they release their new generation console.
The market is going to stand until the PS3 and the curve increased with the release of PS3. PSP is gong to back up the curve until PS3 is released.
This with all the respect to the economic analysts.

Alex.

[Rallyracr420]

what economists are you referring to?

[MegaGrid]

There were some future prediction about Sony sales.
I was expecting to see the new PSP price. With the price they released they have made a clear entry in the portable business.
Feel free to search for the thread they have posted these predictions

[*G*spot]

I would like to disagree with the economists predicting Sony economic curve.
First of all comes the PSP with a cost of around $200. Which is region free.
This means that there should be no wait for someone to wait for its release in Japan or USA or Europe. This means that PSP is going to hit the market in December at Christmas making this little gadget a very elegant gift.
I have seen GT4 screenshot in PSP and I was practicaly amazed this means that it is going to be a cult. If I buy PSP I am going to buy it for this game.
If GT4 could hit the market before Christmas then it woud have been far even great. I was expecting the $200 mark and seeing it happening means a lot. This gadget is going to sell and hold the market until 2006 when PS3 goes out. The market of PS3 will not be conflicting with PSP since it is a different philosophy in playing. So PSP is going to live for quite a while after PS3 release. I am saying this because it is going to take some time after the release of the new PSP powered also with the Cell processor. Because this is going to happen since its going in PDAs its going to go in PSP but after a while.
Since I am mostly keen in Racing games I am hoping to see GT5 in PS3 and released by the time they release their new generation console.
The market is going to stand until the PS3 and the curve increased with the release of PS3. PSP is gong to back up the curve until PS3 is released.
This with all the respect to the economic analysts.

Alex.


I don't understand what the hell you're speakin' about. But, if you're claiming both systems will succeed, well then I agree with you. :twisted:

[High Lander]

Hey Megagrid,

You wrote:

"First of all comes the PSP with a cost of around $200. Which is region free. This means that there should be no wait for someone to wait for its release in Japan or USA or Europe. "

But you´re wrong (or VERY PROBABLY wrong).

MOST people will get PSP to play GAMES as a first choice, not MOVIES.

So, it does NOT matter if it´s region free for movies... who the hell out of Japan would like to get a PSP for Christmas, if there would NOT be any game in english before march ?? I would never pay some dozens of my bucks to purchase a game that I can read/listen/understand nothing at all. I will not even talk about the japanese firmware, menus in japanese would suck donkey balls, and WHO knows if you´d be able to upgrade the firmware to an ocidental version ? Nobody !

So forget, 99% of PSP sales up to feb/05 will be INSIDE Japan. And on march, I´ll get mine :P

[MegaGrid]

Well to tell you the truth I wouldnt want to play a game listening and reading Japanese since I do not know the language.
If GT4 for example is out then it wont be just in Japanese I hope you agree with me.

http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=218&products_id=2979&

Product Features
# Special Pre-Order for PSP or PSP Value Pack
# Sony's new Handheld System
# 16:9 Widescreen TFT LCD
# Wi-Fi Wireless LAN
# Universal Media Disc (UMD) Standard
# Region Free (Plays games worldwide from any region!)

:-)

I have just added just for a reminder. I was about to order a PSP but I will wait only to buy it with GT4 as I like mostly racing games. They wouldnt post advertisements of worldwide shipping if it was mainly for Japanese consumers the first release.

Alex.
P.S: I wouldn't complain at all playing a Japanese game with English subtitles...

[zenodaddy]

Actually I have read that GT4 will be out before Christmas here in the states which is right on target since we all got screwed with no internet competition built in. Which is no real big deal unless you get tired of playing the same idiotic AI on the same tracks for the 1000th time.

Maybe by PS3 they can actually make it entertaining, this time I will skip GT altogether since GTA:SA came out.

[Xeno]

Actually I have read that GT4 will be out before Christmas here in the states which is right on target since we all got screwed with no internet competition built in. Which is no real big deal unless you get tired of playing the same idiotic AI on the same tracks for the 1000th time.

Maybe by PS3 they can actually make it entertaining, this time I will skip GT altogether since GTA:SA came out.

The AI according to PD won't be idiotic :)

[MegaGrid]

I am talking about the Portable version... I am not predicting here I have read Sonys statemet on the 27th of October.
The GT4 is one of my favorites and I am going to buy it as soon it is released.
As you I am just an admiror of Sonys (and Toshibas and now IBMs) hardware design . The PS3 will bring revolution in the design of games. The grid concept was out from 85. It is the way they are going to use it that makes it fascinating.
This is a conclusion for me for this year. I will start writting next year after the feedback of IBM Cel Workstation. Lets cross fingers that they are going to keep their promise of a December demonstration of the Cell chip so that we have lots to say in January.

Alex.

[Saibo]

I am talking about the Portable version... I am not predicting here I have read Sonys statemet on the 27th of October.
The GT4 is one of my favorites and I am going to buy it as soon it is released.
As you I am just an admiror of Sonys (and Toshibas and now IBMs) hardware design . The PS3 will bring revolution in the design of games. The grid concept was out from 85. It is the way they are going to use it that makes it fascinating.
This is a conclusion for me for this year. I will start writting next year after the feedback of IBM Cel Workstation. Lets cross fingers that they are going to keep their promise of a December demonstration of the Cell chip so that we have lots to say in January.

Alex.

I might buy one Cell workstation for development, but it all depends on the specs, and performance. Im waiting to the Dec. prototype demo also. If it reachs 1 TFLOPs and offers real time GI, photon mapping,ray tracing, caustic,motion blur,etc. Base on Toshiba engineer's patents ,thats what they are shooting for. Even if the sell the workstation at 5K i''ll buy one.

I hope they plan on selling it to the general public, it would make sense since the rumour XBOX 2 PC ... competation is always good.

[amod20002004]

Man what is going on. Megagrid, you have posted your thread in ps3 discussion.Please Post it in PSP section. By the way, you have discovered very good point for debate. :)

[Domination]

I am talking about the Portable version... I am not predicting here I have read Sonys statemet on the 27th of October.
The GT4 is one of my favorites and I am going to buy it as soon it is released.
As you I am just an admiror of Sonys (and Toshibas and now IBMs) hardware design . The PS3 will bring revolution in the design of games. The grid concept was out from 85. It is the way they are going to use it that makes it fascinating.
This is a conclusion for me for this year. I will start writting next year after the feedback of IBM Cel Workstation. Lets cross fingers that they are going to keep their promise of a December demonstration of the Cell chip so that we have lots to say in January.

Alex.

I might buy one Cell workstation for development, but it all depends on the specs, and performance. Im waiting to the Dec. prototype demo also. If it reachs 1 TFLOPs and offers real time GI, photon mapping,ray tracing, caustic,motion blur,etc. Base on Toshiba engineer's patents ,thats what they are shooting for. Even if the sell the workstation at 5K i''ll buy one.

I hope they plan on selling it to the general public, it would make sense since the rumour XBOX 2 PC ... competation is always good.

I doubt it'll be sold to the ENTIRE general public (as in members outside of game publishers). Sony stated this not too long ago.

Concerning the workstation, the last two failed because they were way too costy (due to Sony packing a huge box full of PS2 parts) and the performance being minimum to visual effects designers. Sony canned the project and turned to something new, which is what we see now. With Cell being less expensive to produce and a lot more powerful, therefore reflecting on the cost of the entire workstation, there's a very good chance that this workstation will be a lot more powerful with a much lower retail tag.

I believe around mid December, we will see what a the prototype is capable of.

[Saibo]

I am talking about the Portable version... I am not predicting here I have read Sonys statemet on the 27th of October.
The GT4 is one of my favorites and I am going to buy it as soon it is released.
As you I am just an admiror of Sonys (and Toshibas and now IBMs) hardware design . The PS3 will bring revolution in the design of games. The grid concept was out from 85. It is the way they are going to use it that makes it fascinating.
This is a conclusion for me for this year. I will start writting next year after the feedback of IBM Cel Workstation. Lets cross fingers that they are going to keep their promise of a December demonstration of the Cell chip so that we have lots to say in January.

Alex.

I might buy one Cell workstation for development, but it all depends on the specs, and performance. Im waiting to the Dec. prototype demo also. If it reachs 1 TFLOPs and offers real time GI, photon mapping,ray tracing, caustic,motion blur,etc. Base on Toshiba engineer's patents ,thats what they are shooting for. Even if the sell the workstation at 5K i''ll buy one.

I hope they plan on selling it to the general public, it would make sense since the rumour XBOX 2 PC ... competation is always good.

I doubt it'll be sold to the ENTIRE general public (as in members outside of game publishers). Sony stated this not too long ago.

Concerning the workstation, the last two failed because they were way too costy (due to Sony packing a huge box full of PS2 parts) and the performance being minimum to visual effects designers. Sony canned the project and turned to something new, which is what we see now. With Cell being less expensive to produce and a lot more powerful, therefore reflecting on the cost of the entire workstation, there's a very good chance that this workstation will be a lot more powerful with a much lower retail tag.

I believe around mid December, we will see what a the prototype is capable of.

Do you have a link to where Sony states that? For my sake i hope your wrong. I also read somewhere that Sony does want to get into the DDC workstation market. Part of the DDC market have a share of hobbist.

If they really want to mass market the Cell workstation they'll need to open it up to the general public, just as Microsoft XBOX2 PC version is intended to do. With that version, XBOX2 user can mod their own games, and create digital content thru third party software. Competation from Microsoft might change Sonys mind. at least i hope it will.

If the Cell workstation is capable of realtime GI alone, i know ALOT of DDC user will jump on the band wagon. And im sure companies like Luxology,Izware, DIscreet, Softimage would more than be happy to port there DDC apps for the workstation given its great power?

[Domination]

First of all, the Cell workstation will not (let me repeat once more: it will not) be able to run Xenon or Nintendo Revolution software for one main reason... The console can only be linked to this box through a special processor. That processor is Cell.



Sony gives glimpse of PS3 processor at E3

Sony's CTO outlines the functionality of the Cell processor, which
will be at the heart of Sony's next-gen console.
At the end of its E3 conference today, Sony gave viewers an oblique
glimpse into its next-generation console plans. Towards the end of the
press conference, Sony Chief Technical Officer Masa Chinati took to
the stage to talk about the Cell Processor, the next-generation CPU
Sony is developing with Toshiba and IBM. The Cell processor is
expected to be at the heart of Sony's next generation console, the
PlayStation 3.

Thought it seemed like a footnote coming after the raptly received PSP
demonstration, Chinati's brief presentation did offers some insight
into Sony's next-gen master plan.

First, the company will manufacture a high-end workstation using the
Cell CPU. Planned for release at the end of 2004, the workstation will
use the CPU's capabilities to provide users with the tools for complex
rendering, physics, modeling, behavior, rendering, and analysis.

In outlining how the Cell works, Chinati provided a glimpse of the
PS3's CPU. He mention's the Cell's parallel processing and floating
point capabilities which will allow for "massive data bandwidth."

Second, the Cell workstations will be marketed directly to the game
and special-effects industries. The labor in their creation will be
divided between Sony and IBM. SCE will develop middleware and other
and tools for game development and film effects. The Cell chips
themselves will be manufactured by IBM, who will also work on the OS.

By Tor Thorsen -- GameSpot
POSTED: 05/11/04 03:39PM PST

[Saibo]

First of all, the Cell workstation will not (let me repeat once more: it will not) be able to run Xenon or Nintendo Revolution software for one main reason... The console can only be linked to this box through a special processor. That processor is Cell.



Sony gives glimpse of PS3 processor at E3

Sony's CTO outlines the functionality of the Cell processor, which
will be at the heart of Sony's next-gen console.
At the end of its E3 conference today, Sony gave viewers an oblique
glimpse into its next-generation console plans. Towards the end of the
press conference, Sony Chief Technical Officer Masa Chinati took to
the stage to talk about the Cell Processor, the next-generation CPU
Sony is developing with Toshiba and IBM. The Cell processor is
expected to be at the heart of Sony's next generation console, the
PlayStation 3.

Thought it seemed like a footnote coming after the raptly received PSP
demonstration, Chinati's brief presentation did offers some insight
into Sony's next-gen master plan.

First, the company will manufacture a high-end workstation using the
Cell CPU. Planned for release at the end of 2004, the workstation will
use the CPU's capabilities to provide users with the tools for complex
rendering, physics, modeling, behavior, rendering, and analysis.

In outlining how the Cell works, Chinati provided a glimpse of the
PS3's CPU. He mention's the Cell's parallel processing and floating
point capabilities which will allow for "massive data bandwidth."

Second, the Cell workstations will be marketed directly to the game
and special-effects industries. The labor in their creation will be
divided between Sony and IBM. SCE will develop middleware and other
and tools for game development and film effects. The Cell chips
themselves will be manufactured by IBM, who will also work on the OS.

By Tor Thorsen -- GameSpot
POSTED: 05/11/04 03:39PM PST

who said anything about running software from XBOX2 or Revolution? :) I read the same article, but its vague, as the DDC industry itself ISN'T made of all professional. In anycase, either sony or third party DDC developer need to write their software for Cell workstation.

[Domination]

Unless you are looking to delude yourself, the quote is as obvious as any. The workstation will only be targetting the key developers mentioned above. And when I say run, I mean build.

In anycase, either sony or third party DDC developer need to write their software for Cell workstation.

Which is what the PS3 is for. :?

[Z]

Does anyone know exactly when the workstation premier will be, and the name of the event?

[Domination]

Sony only mentioned it being shown later this year, at least the prototype model.

[Saibo]

Unless you are looking to delude yourself, the quote is as obvious as any. The workstation will only be targetting the key developers mentioned above. And when I say run, I mean build.



In another article, IBM was asked if they would direct sale the workstation to the general public, they said "no comment". The article you posted is vague, and did not mention any DCC developer(Discreet, Luxology,Softimage,etc). Those companies well not write their DCC app for the Cell workstation, unless it was aviable to the general public(to make more money). The DCC industry has change alot from the 1980 to present day. It used to be DCC apps costed a arm /leg , but now anyone can buy a DCC app.


In anycase, either sony or third party DCC developer need to write their software for Cell workstation.

Which is what the PS3 is for. :?

Your confusing yourself. A workstation is meant for working, weather it be for film,DCC,CAD/CAM ,which requires a keyboard and mouse,HDD,etc. PS3 is design to play games among other things. Unless Sony/IBM writes their own Animation,Dynamic,Modeling,FX software, dont except the third party developer to port their DCC software to a "close" Cell workstation. Its the same reason why the Wintel solution became so popular with the industry and general public, because it was so open..we come along way since SGI computers..nowadays its either a G5,Wintel, or a PC running Linux for the DCC industry(which includes film) all of which are aviable for purchased by the general public.

Im talking about digital content creation(DCC) software used to make games itself..not the final game itself. Also it was in the 1980 that some of the Sony/Toshiba engineers wanted to get into the workstation market, because it was hip back than and still is today. But as i stated the DCC workstation market has change from the 80s to now..its not "close" anymore.

Basically a "close" Cell workstation would be bad for business for Sony. Like i said your article is vague, but maybe once Sony lays out a solid plan for the Cell workstation coming December, we'll know for sure if its going to be close or open. If in fact it can do, Real time GI,caustic,FG,motion blur,etc..than it would be stupid to keep that techology "close".

edit: its DCC,not DDC .

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0%2C1558%2C1591521%2C00.asp

[Z]

I am ignorant of this matter thus I am curious, what is the relationship between game engines and DevKits? There are advanced game engines being used now in making nex-gen content, like Climax’s Tomcat, Unreal Engine, Criterion’s next engine, Reality, and so on. On the other hand, console companies are developing and distributing DevKits. Do these kits come with such engines embedded? Or do Developers buy an engine and a DevKit separately and integrate them, or do the DivKits have original engines? Or what?

Thanks.

[Domination]

Unless you are looking to delude yourself, the quote is as obvious as any. The workstation will only be targetting the key developers mentioned above. And when I say run, I mean build.



In another article, IBM was asked if they would direct sale the workstation to the general public, they said "no comment". The article you posted is vague, and did not mention any DCC developer(Discreet, Luxology,Softimage,etc). Those companies well not write their DCC app for the Cell workstation, unless it was aviable to the general public(to make more money). The DCC industry has change alot from the 1980 to present day. It used to be DCC apps costed a arm /leg , but now anyone can buy a DCC app.

I was never aware that IBM would be using the workstation to begin with. It was only the Cell that they agreed to market with Sony. :? Do you also mind answering me why the very last two workstations weren't marketed to the public outside the movie industry? This should have been enough to lend you a clue.

Oh, and here's something you may want to look into:

The Sony solution is certain to integrate tightly with the PlayStation 3 development system, whereas developers working on Xbox 2 will probably still be tied to Windows - making the task of putting digital content from the Cell workstations (whose proposed role reminds us of the market position occupied by Silicon Graphics workstations in the early nineties, before their performance was overtaken by x86 PC systems and PowerPC Macintosh systems) into Xbox 2 titles much more difficult than the equivalent task on PS3.

Like I said before, CELL is what makes this project possible, rather you want to believe that or not.


In anycase, either sony or third party DCC developer need to write their software for Cell workstation.

Which is what the PS3 is for. :?

Your confusing yourself. A workstation is meant for working, weather it be for film,DCC,CAD/CAM ,which requires a keyboard and mouse,HDD,etc. PS3 is design to play games among other things. Unless Sony/IBM writes their own Animation,Dynamic,Modeling,FX software, dont except the third party developer to port their DCC software to a "close" Cell workstation. Its the same reason why the Wintel solution became so popular with the industry and general public, because it was so open..we come along way since SGI computers..nowadays its either a G5,Wintel, or a PC running Linux for the DCC industry(which includes film) all of which are aviable for purchased by the general public.

Im talking about digital content creation(DCC) software used to make games itself..not the final game itself. Also it was in the 1980 that some of the Sony/Toshiba engineers wanted to get into the workstation market, because it was hip back than and still is today. But as i stated the DCC workstation market has change from the 80s to now..its not "close" anymore.

Basically a "close" Cell workstation would be bad for business for Sony. Like i said your article is vague, but maybe once Sony lays out a solid plan for the Cell workstation coming December, we'll know for sure if its going to be close or open. If in fact it can do, Real time GI,caustic,FG,motion blur,etc..than it would be stupid to keep that techology "close".

edit: its DCC,not DDC .

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0%2C1558%2C1591521%2C00.asp

I'm not really sure where you're getting at, but Sony has stated many times that software will be the most crucial part of this project. So, I'm assuming they already looked into this.

[Saibo]

I am ignorant of this matter thus I am curious, what is the relationship between game engines and DevKits? There are advanced game engines being used now in making nex-gen content, like Climax’s Tomcat, Unreal Engine, Criterion’s next engine, Reality, and so on. On the other hand, console companies are developing and distributing DevKits. Do these kits come with such engines embedded? Or do Developers buy an engine and a DevKit separately and integrate them, or do the DivKits have original engines? Or what?

Thanks.

Im not the best person to asnwer this, cuz i deal with DCC part only. Devkit are hardware for developers to write their software engine(insert your favorite engine here) onto, to take advantage of architecture(in this case PS3). I assume the workstation is the devkit itself, which should allow developers to create the engine and allow them to test out their game directly on it. This way the developers wont need to have a PC, a seperate Devkit, everything can be done on that unit.

Sony isnt new to indy developer or opening the development door to general public; Net Yaroze, PS2 Linux.

http://identicalsoftware.com/yaroze/

If you dont understand what a a game engine is, you can read up on one here: http://www.hlfallout.net/articles.php/article_2/

[Domination]

I'll get back to this later; I have special duties to attend.

[Saibo]

I have never seen the GS Cube in action, but found a interesting article that ties the interested of Softimage with GS Cube. Softimage is one of the major DCC software developers for the film industry and game industry(they are also currently working on the COLLADA project). It clearly implies that this industry could use the power now. Ideally, Softimage wont port their software to GS Cube(let alone the Cell Workstation) unless the station was avaible to the general public. Well thats their business practices nowadays.

PS3 might not have 1 TFLOP, but the workstation can(put more PEs on chip?), it'll just be charged more(which is understandable). A good workstation cost about 2,000-5,000 USD, which DCC user are willing to play, if the power is higher than current Wintel solution(plus the software has to be there).

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.05/gs3.html

Been using Softimage XSI for 5 months(www.softimage.com) enough to know i hate it with a passion for modeling, my point is, if Sony plans on writing their own DCC software it'll be high unlike that most developers will adopt or even like it to use it. Ideally ,third party DCC software developers are needed to fill this gap. The industry as it is now, rely on mutliple DCC software to get the job done weather in film or game development.

Heres another article: http://www.ladydragon.com/a-240700gscube.html
Which mention a few more key DCC developers interested in the GS Cube. It also shows they rely on third party DCC software developers..so maybe they'll still rely on them with the Cell Workstation.

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO %2Fsearch-adv.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&p=1&S1=20020038451&OS =20020038451&RS=20020038451

PS3 might not do 1 TFLOP, but nothing is stoping a Cell Workstation from hitting that mark?All signs points to a real time DCC application appoarch on cell workstation in the future. Basically, the developers can tweak the DCC app engine and do all their 3D modeling(any post production work) all in one unit. this is a convergence between DCC app and game engine! they'll be one and the same!

"These ideas replace the current image generation run-time application with a new framework defining the connectivity, features, and behavior necessary to implement a graphics system. All this takes place in the context of a software platform utilizing an integration mechanism that dynamically integrates the various real-time components in a run-time application."

http://eetimes.com/consumer/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=51200450

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20040512/scea29.htm
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20040512/scea30.htm
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20040512/scea31.htm

the last picture, kinda kills most of my comments about the Devkit and cell workstation being one. They seem to be seperate,but both base on cell cpu and have a common OS.

[Domination]

[quote=Domination]"I was never aware that IBM would be using the workstation to begin with. It was only the Cell that they agreed to market with Sony. :? Do you also mind answering me why the very last two workstations weren't marketed to the public outside the movie industry? This should have been enough to lend you a clue."

>Well the info thru articles i have seen, states that IBM is in charge of saling the Cell workstation among other things. Currently IBM sales workstation base on Opteron and Xeon cpus to the general public. In another article points to Sony wanting to go head to head with the likes of Intel and Dell in there respective area. They can not compete with Dell without having a wide demographic(not limited to studios). Its 2 reason that support my claim that the Cell workstation well be open platform for anyone with money.

This workstation both Sony Co. and SCEI and IBM are building revolves around the previous two projects. It was nothing IBM came up with on their own if at all. They can not go selling this box all because they had a part in it. It would also defeat the purpose of Sony using the advantage to boost the content on their console over the others. Isn't this why Microsoft is using XNA?

As far as i know about the "last 2" workstation base on PS2 EE/GS never made it into the light of day. Probably because it was to expensive to produce?There are very little articles about why there werent realized. GS Cube being a inspiration for the kind of computing power this industry need, gave birth to Cell? Cell should be cheap to produce and would be ideal for a workstation. Thats the only reason i see Sony producing Cell Workstation. <

No doubt the GScube inspire the Cell in some way, but by the words of Sony, the archchitecture is very different from what the GScube consisted of. Which means the two are more like close friends than bothers to one another.

The last two workstations never took off because they were way to costy and didn't meet a lot of expectations of others as far as raw power had gone.



[quote=Domination]"Oh, and here's something you may want to look into:

The Sony solution is certain to integrate tightly with the PlayStation 3 development system, whereas developers working on Xbox 2 will probably still be tied to Windows - making the task of putting digital content from the Cell workstations (whose proposed role reminds us of the market position occupied by Silicon Graphics workstations in the early nineties, before their performance was overtaken by x86 PC systems and PowerPC Macintosh systems) into Xbox 2 titles much more difficult than the equivalent task on PS3.

Like I said before, CELL is what makes this project possible, rather you want to believe that or not."

>What you should understand or gather from that article is that in order to be popular and successful in the DCC/Film indusrty is making power yet cheap cpus that anyone can get there hands on. Back in the days, a SGI workstation close a arm and a leg, only big film studios could afford them. As Intel cpus were slowly getting faster and where cheaper to produce,more DCC companies started to port their software for those workstation. In turn, alot more film companie started to drop their high price SGI machine in favor of Wintel solution.

This is true. But, you are comparing the gaming industry to the movie industry. Consoles are done through set hardware. To be recognized in this industry, all you would have to do is stand out from the others, which is where all three competitors seem to be aiming (differently). The movie industry is different. You are trying to persuade them into helping you become the standard provider in that industry, if that makes any since.

Also, its basically saying that a Cell workstation would be a better choice for PS3 developers, as they create all their 3D content, that same asset can be pluged into the engine, aftet which the developers can just test their game on that same unit. This is a convergence of development pipeline,that is much need for a unique architecture like the PS2/PS3. it saves the developers some money in the end and converge the pipeline into a single one.

No, it is saying that SONY'S console is better to develop for than the others.

[Saibo]

man this forum sucks! lost all my 5 minute reply to you a few seconds ago.

ok let me recap.

"This workstation both Sony Co. and SCEI and IBM are building revolves around the previous two projects. It was nothing IBM came up with on their own if at all? "

>Base on articles i readed(spelling?) in the past about the workstation. The deal between SCEI/Sony and IBM is, that IBM is in charge of sales/marketing the workstation. Its beyond me why Sony let IBM market their Cell workstation, since IBM is worse at marketing that Sega or Nintendo let alone Sony with their success of the VAIO line among other things. In a perfect world Sony itself would be saling/marketing it themselves.

"They can not go selling this box all because they had a part in it. It would also defeat the purpose of Sony using the advantage to boost the content on their console over the others."

>Read the top sentence, i didnt make it off the top of my head(i hell of would rather see Sony do it themselves)So basically Cell workstation can be bought by anyone, even Microsoft to the average joe. Even if Microsoft bought a ton of Cell workstation to use on XBOX2 game development project, that doesnt take away from Sony advantage in anyway shape or form. Heres way:

1. XBOX2 and PS3 totally different architecture(assumed) so the only thing they could possibly use the workstation for is to speed up creation of FMV(full motion video, typical of FF series games) , 3D cotent for games.

-a. XBOX2 has inferior spec than PS3(assumed) plus totally different architecture, so all that raw power in the cell workstation isnt at Microsoft disposal, due to the fact that the limiting factor is the XBOX2 spec(i.e. how many polygons it can push,etc).

-b However, Microsoft can use the cell workstation to speed up the creation of FMV, which is a plus for them or any company doing FMV for that matter.

-c. They can use it to speed up modeling, or allow for more interaction with large data sets, but they are still limited by the XBOX2 specs as to how high a character model polygon count can go(final output). So thats not really a true advantage. Same thing with game animation.

-d the target console has to have a superior specs, even than they are 2 seperate market(DCC/Film). Film industry rely on DCC industry to supply the software to create the films. But essentailly they are so dependent on each other, they cant be seperated.

-D2. DCC is a open market, anyone can buy a workstation from Dell,HP,IBM, hell even SGI(2,000-5,000 USD). DCC Developers make money thru upgrades and maintance(spelling?) contract. So Cell Workstation being sold by IBM must be open also, its meant to improve/speed up digital content creation for film or games for EVERYONE not a select few. I think your confusing the final product(the game) with the content that goes into the game. the workstation is supposed to aid the 3D content creation, while the PS3 development kit are for testing the engine and the game itself. they are 2 seperate industry and processes altogether. Have you used any DCC software or done any game development?


"Isn't this why Microsoft is using XNA? "

>AFAIK, all XNA is are a set of common tools that developers have access to between PC/XBOX development, it would apply to PC/XBOX2 development also. I think valve who is working on HL2 for XBOX, has mention they like XNA because of the common tools microsoft is releaseing to the developers, it makes porting between the 2 platform easier(since they dont have to write the own tools(i.e. Sound tools)). Im not sure if XNA includes, common export/import plugin,etc. Thats smart on Microsoft part, it does help alot in porting between XBOX/PC. But than again, Sony is doing that and some. They are providing middleware,API,tools,COLLADA and much more for PS3 developers. Sony COLLADA is somewhat like XNA, but it only relates a common import/export standard between different DCC software(this is something the DCC industry need like 5 years ago, hats off to Sony!). To top it off they well even introduce the Cell workstation to speed up 3D content creation for games/film industry(you cant do this kind of stuff on the current Wintel/AMD,Apple workstation architecture they are just not built for real time content creation,theres too many bottleneck in those workstation).

well thats the reason im interested in the Cell Workstation, it'll give me real time performance at a affordable price. Im convince that a Cell Workstation could reach 1 TFLOP, but im not sure about PS3 doing that..due to price issues.

on another note, COLLADA well aid ALL developers, not just PS3 developer, likewise with the Cell Workstation(not the Cell Development Kit).Ironically, though XNA only helps PC/XBOX developer not everyone,selfish Microsoft! I hope you understand my reasoning, and logic. Im no DEADMEAT rofl. ;)

[Domination]

Read the top sentence, i didnt make it off the top of my head(i hell of would rather see Sony do it themselves)So basically Cell workstation can be bought by anyone, even Microsoft to the average joe. Even if Microsoft bought a ton of Cell workstation to use on XBOX2 game development project, that doesnt take away from Sony advantage in anyway shape or form. Heres way:

1. XBOX2 and PS3 totally different architecture(assumed) so the only thing they could possibly use the workstation for is to speed up creation of FMV(full motion video, typical of FF series games) , 3D cotent for games.

-a. XBOX2 has inferior spec than PS3(assumed) plus totally different architecture, so all that raw power in the cell workstation isnt at Microsoft disposal, due to the fact that the limiting factor is the XBOX2 spec(i.e. how many polygons it can push,etc).

-b However, Microsoft can use the cell workstation to speed up the creation of FMV, which is a plus for them or any company doing FMV for that matter.

-c. They can use it to speed up modeling, or allow for more interaction with large data sets, but they are still limited by the XBOX2 specs as to how high a character model polygon count can go(final output). So thats not really a true advantage. Same thing with game animation.

-d the target console has to have a superior specs, even than they are 2 seperate market(DCC/Film). Film industry rely on DCC industry to supply the software to create the films. But essentailly they are so dependent on each other, they cant be seperated.

-D2. DCC is a open market, anyone can buy a workstation from Dell,HP,IBM, hell even SGI(2,000-5,000 USD). DCC Developers make money thru upgrades and maintance(spelling?) contract. So Cell Workstation being sold by IBM must be open also, its meant to improve/speed up digital content creation for film or games for EVERYONE not a select few. I think your confusing the final product(the game) with the content that goes into the game. the workstation is supposed to aid the 3D content creation, while the PS3 development kit are for testing the engine and the game itself. they are 2 seperate industry and processes altogether. Have you used any DCC software or done any game development?

I believe we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I would say it isn't impossible for the others to use this hardware, but I seriously doubt it'll be as simple it seems. And although you may be right about IBM's pass statement concerning this workstation (which I have not witnesss, BTW), I am still not convinced of them having THAT my authority as to marketing this station without Sony's full consent. Oh, and let's just say I know a bit. :wink:

"Isn't this why Microsoft is using XNA? "

>AFAIK, all XNA is are a set of common tools that developers have access to between PC/XBOX development, it would apply to PC/XBOX2 development also. I think valve who is working on HL2 for XBOX, has mention they like XNA because of the common tools microsoft is releaseing to the developers, it makes porting between the 2 platform easier(since they dont have to write the own tools(i.e. Sound tools)). Im not sure if XNA includes, common export/import plugin,etc. Thats smart on Microsoft part, it does help alot in porting between XBOX/PC. But than again, Sony is doing that and some. They are providing middleware,API,tools,COLLADA and much more for PS3 developers. Sony COLLADA is somewhat like XNA, but it only relates a common import/export standard between different DCC software(this is something the DCC industry need like 5 years ago, hats off to Sony!). To top it off they well even introduce the Cell workstation to speed up 3D content creation for games/film industry(you cant do this kind of stuff on the current Wintel/AMD,Apple workstation architecture they are just not built for real time content creation,theres too many bottleneck in those workstation).

well thats the reason im interested in the Cell Workstation, it'll give me real time performance at a affordable price. Im convince that a Cell Workstation could reach 1 TFLOP, but im not sure about PS3 doing that..due to price issues.

on another note, COLLADA well aid ALL developers, not just PS3 developer, likewise with the Cell Workstation(not the Cell Development Kit).Ironically, though XNA only helps PC/XBOX developer not everyone,selfish Microsoft! I hope you understand my reasoning, and logic. Im no DEADMEAT rofl. ;)

The way Microsoft explains it, this XNA program is compatible with other hardware inventions out there other than Windows and the Xenon console. That includes Sony and Nintendo as well. However, this does not mean that the others will be able to just persuade developers into using it to develop gamesfor their console dispite how "open" it may look. There are a number of steps and procedures that take place before hand.

BTW, never once had I thought of you as Deadmeat, but even if you were, as long as you aren't acting like a complete butt-hole as well as an anti social fanboy that gets his kicks by spouting mounds and mounds of pure BS, I could care less. :wink:

[Saibo]

"I believe we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I would say it isn't impossible for the others to use this hardware, but I seriously doubt it'll be as simple it seems. And although you may be right about IBM's pass statement concerning this workstation (which I have not witnesss, BTW), I am still not convinced of them having THAT my authority as to marketing this station without Sony's full consent. Oh, and let's just say I know a bit. :wink:"

Like i said, im going by what the article said, IBM is charged of selling the Cell Workstation(this is the agreement that was announced at E3)so IBM does have Sony full consent. Unless you can provide another article that states easewise, i'll stand by my statement. Or if you have a inside source on this Cell workstation issue..feel free to post it.

;) im not happy that IBM is saling and marketing it, they arent good at both. Ideally Sony should do that.

edit: i tried to look for the article that back up my IBM saling cell workstation claim, but it seem to vanish on the 1up.com site. :oops:

thats still good news to me, it might mean Sony is going to handle the sales/marketing of the workstation. So lets wait until December to jump back on this topic,hopefully they'll show it this december!

[Domination]

"I believe we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I would say it isn't impossible for the others to use this hardware, but I seriously doubt it'll be as simple it seems. And although you may be right about IBM's pass statement concerning this workstation (which I have not witnesss, BTW), I am still not convinced of them having THAT my authority as to marketing this station without Sony's full consent. Oh, and let's just say I know a bit. :wink:"

Like i said, im going by what the article said, IBM is charged of selling the Cell Workstation(this is the agreement that was announced at E3)so IBM does have Sony full consent. Unless you can provide another article that states easewise, i'll stand by my statement. Or if you have a inside source on this Cell workstation issue..feel free to post it.

;) im not happy that IBM is saling and marketing it, they arent good at both. Ideally Sony should do that.

edit: i tried to look for the article that back up my IBM saling cell workstation claim, but it seem to vanish on the 1up.com site. :oops:

thats still good news to me, it might mean Sony is going to handle the sales/marketing of the workstation. So lets wait until December to jump back on this topic,hopefully they'll show it this december!

Deal!!! http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/thumb.gif

[Saibo]

I think it safe for me to enter into the discussion of Cell Workstation again ROFL.

16 teraflops?? that just goes beyond my 1 teraflop expectation. with 16 teraflop, you can have realtime effects like nobodies business. Looks like a bright future for all DCC users,developers!!

Just one question, it doesnt mention the cost of the workstation..but i assume it'll range between 2-5 K USD. This isnt bad considering, the production advantage.

[Domination]

I think it safe for me to enter into the discussion of Cell Workstation again ROFL.

16 teraflops?? that just goes beyond my 1 teraflop expectation. with 16 teraflop, you can have realtime effects like nobodies business. Looks like a bright future for all DCC users,developers!!

Just one question, it doesnt mention the cost of the workstation..but i assume it'll range between 2-5 K USD. This isnt bad considering, the production advantage.

If you were really expecting the workstation to do 1 teraflop or even slightly below, then I'm afraid you were down playing its performance. After numerous resources and information behind the previous stations, I was expecting well over 1.5 teraflops (even though 16 over exceeded this a little). Like I said before, it was how the first two workstation had failed; they were not powerful enough. There was no doubt in my mind that Sony weren't going to try to at least attempt hitting a much higher mark. It is what they do. If they really want something bad enough, they'll keep going after it until it is accomplished.

[Saibo]

nah i just go by what i hear, only heard 1 TFLOP. The 16 teraflop caught be off gaurd too, im sure Intel/AMD/SGI/Apple are caught off gaurd also.

The only question i have is still unanswered.

Well it be open for the average joe to buy(like myself)?? price isnt a issue(i'll rob a bank if i have to).

i really need the performance increase!

:wink:

[Domination]

nah i just go by what i hear, only heard 1 TFLOP. The 16 teraflop caught be off gaurd too, im sure Intel/AMD/SGI/Apple are caught off gaurd also.

The only question i have is still unanswered.

Well it be open for the average joe to buy(like myself)?? price isnt a issue(i'll rob a bank if i have to).

i really need the performance increase!

:wink:

There was an artical stating,not too long ago, that Sony's workstation was aiming at leaders like Intel. I'm guessing due to them being Microsoft's number provider.

[Z]

As for Sony’s case, I think they want to have a considerable control in this area, which leads me to assume they will market it openly. Sony isn’t only aiming for the gaming market, but also in the movie industry as well. This also leans to the idea of an open market.
This may not prove much yet still; Koie said that they will share same materials between the movie and their upcoming PS3 game Oni. That may mean CGs, renders, and what have you.
Also, IBM wants a part of the workstation’s market as well. This is more reason to believe such. Add to that Toshiba (if it said anything about workstation’s marketing) and I think it is fairly safe to presume it will be marketed openly.

[The_One]

nah i just go by what i hear, only heard 1 TFLOP. The 16 teraflop caught be off gaurd too, im sure Intel/AMD/SGI/Apple are caught off gaurd also.

The only question i have is still unanswered.

Well it be open for the average joe to buy(like myself)?? price isnt a issue(i'll rob a bank if i have to).

i really need the performance increase!

:wink: I think a while ago they Sony had some sort of "sign up" contract that you had to sign to get a CELL Workstation, and no, they were not open to the Average Joe (On top of that, you're looking at a price of WAY over 10K US).

[Saibo]

nah i just go by what i hear, only heard 1 TFLOP. The 16 teraflop caught be off gaurd too, im sure Intel/AMD/SGI/Apple are caught off gaurd also.

The only question i have is still unanswered.

Well it be open for the average joe to buy(like myself)?? price isnt a issue(i'll rob a bank if i have to).

i really need the performance increase!

:wink: I think a while ago they Sony had some sort of "sign up" contract that you had to sign to get a CELL Workstation, and no, they were not open to the Average Joe (On top of that, you're looking at a price of WAY over 10K US).

thats somewhat contradicts what i read about the workstation in the pass, meanly competing against Dell, AMD, Intel for workstation market share. They'll be foolish if they required a buyer to sign a contract PLUS saling their workstation for 10 K +. My price range is about 5 K max, thats what im willing to pay for a workstation. It had be a different story if the cell workstation came with a awesome DCC software, than i can justify the price tag. But as i said before, Sony has never created a DCC software, i rather stick to something i like, ala Mirai ( www.izware.com ) DCC industry has something in common with the gaming industry, it is IMPORTANT that alot of third party developers support their respect industry, without them they are doom to become yet another SGI, or Sega. I can assure you of one thing though, DCC companies like Softimage,Alias, SideEffects wont support a close solution on the market. Thats why most Film companies are either running a wintel solution, or a G5, or Win-Linux solution..all of which are open to the public. You realize that Wintel/Win-Linux solution are what make up for the largest part of the DCC softwware industry? compare they to the Apple workstation market share! The reason why Wintel or Win-Linux is owning Apple is because its so open, anyone can buy a cpu and ram ,build there own workstation,for that reason alone is what atracted DCC developers to the wintel solution. If they(Sony) want to lead in the workstation market, it needs to be that open and affordable. lol.. just think about it, one day cell cpus would be so common place you can walk into a PC shop and buy the latest cell cpu and build your own workstation. One the low end of the spectrum, they could do what Apple is doing with the G5 workstation and sell them that way, but this isnt ideal for market domination.

I assume Cell is supposed to used in everything by STI, so i assume the cpu would be cheap even compared to Intel Xeon 3.0 Ghz(about 500 USD OEM). Do you have a link to the article that says you have you sing a contract? From all my research i have never seen anything mention about anyone signing any contract for the workstation.

If the contract + 10 K price tag is true, than they are going to have a tough time getting third party DCC developer to port there software(and a tough time braking into the DCC/Film market in general). In fact thats even worse than what SGI did in the past, and they lost to a more openly Wintel solution, where anyone can buy/build their own workstation , go figure ;).

The market has change alot since SGI, no matter how powerful the cell workstation is, the film/DCC industry as it is wont blend over backwards for Sony/IBM. Im sure the big film companies can afford 10k solution, but that would leave alot of freelancers out in the cold, they freelancers need it more than the film companies.

I guess i would have to agree more with Z on the openiness of the workstation, but thats base on what i read in the past and my knowledge of the current DCC/Film industry..not wishful thinking.

For what its worth, i think the Cell workstation well come in many configuration, price ranging from 2-5K(currenly price of workstation by AMD,Intel,Apple)

I hope they say something about this issue!! on Feb 6.

[digital neXus]

I heard, while ago, a story that I forgot all about, when first Pentium I series came out it had a glitch, and that glitch was repaird, now every PC is actualy based on Pentium standards, changed a little bit GHz.... but there was a new pentium series that were started from the begining, actually from nothing, the most stabile processor for now. I think that IBM did that one and that kind of processor cannot be bought anywhere, or if it can be bought it is too expencive for it is rare.
So the point of this story is If Micro$oft is starting a production on a based processor we will have an outstanding graphics CG like, and XBOX is starting first. Sony will come out later with its PS3 with a newly developed processor, but if IBM is doing some bases from their processors it wil be some good shit, considering that they are in a buisness farly from Micro$oft or Intel or AMD

[MegaGrid]

Well well ... I see that this thread has been enrichened... Long time out of here.
I have seen by the way GT4 official site and I liked what I saw.
For instance the spectators are now 3d instead of just a 2D polygon in other races... cool... I wonder if you drive right on them will they jump on the car? LOL... Imagine finishing a race with sth like a hundred law suites from people you have injured.
Also the scenes are fantastic... its amazing of what can come out of the EE...
Cool... Still havent seen any web pages on the IBM CELL workstation...
Did they anounce anything?

[The_One]

For instance the spectators are now 3d instead of just a 2D polygon in other races... cool... I wonder if you drive right on them will they jump on the car? LOL... Imagine finishing a race with sth like a hundred law suites from people you have injured. Nah, this isn't mid town madness :lol:. The spectators are behind the "guard railings".
They'll be foolish if they required a buyer to sign a contract PLUS saling their workstation for 10 K +. Well, the first batch were only the prototypes, on top of that, the GSCube was also selling for over 10K (when it was still in production anyways :roll:). Not only that, but these Workstations aren't aimed at small company or individual devs. They're aimed at High Budget Hollywood Media style companies. Or big companies like EA who can afford this kind of budget and require the computational power offered by one of these beasts.

I assume Cell is supposed to used in everything by STI, so i assume the cpu would be cheap even compared to Intel Xeon 3.0 Ghz(about 500 USD OEM). Do you have a link to the article that says you have you sing a contract? From all my research i have never seen anything mention about anyone signing any contract for the workstation. I can't find the link now (obviously, the first batch are probably all gone by now). And it wasn't a contract, it's some sort of "sign up" sheet. I don't know why, but maybe they want to keep you in the records for later surveying?

[Domination]

nah i just go by what i hear, only heard 1 TFLOP. The 16 teraflop caught be off gaurd too, im sure Intel/AMD/SGI/Apple are caught off gaurd also.

The only question i have is still unanswered.

Well it be open for the average joe to buy(like myself)?? price isnt a issue(i'll rob a bank if i have to).

i really need the performance increase!

:wink: I think a while ago they Sony had some sort of "sign up" contract that you had to sign to get a CELL Workstation, and no, they were not open to the Average Joe (On top of that, you're looking at a price of WAY over 10K US).

thats somewhat contradicts what i read about the workstation in the pass, meanly competing against Dell, AMD, Intel for workstation market share. They'll be foolish if they required a buyer to sign a contract PLUS saling their workstation for 10 K +. My price range is about 5 K max, thats what im willing to pay for a workstation. It had be a different story if the cell workstation came with a awesome DCC software, than i can justify the price tag. But as i said before, Sony has never created a DCC software, i rather stick to something i like, ala Mirai ( www.izware.com ) DCC industry has something in common with the gaming industry, it is IMPORTANT that alot of third party developers support their respect industry, without them they are doom to become yet another SGI, or Sega. I can assure you of one thing though, DCC companies like Softimage,Alias, SideEffects wont support a close solution on the market. Thats why most Film companies are either running a wintel solution, or a G5, or Win-Linux solution..all of which are open to the public. You realize that Wintel/Win-Linux solution are what make up for the largest part of the DCC softwware industry? compare they to the Apple workstation market share! The reason why Wintel or Win-Linux is owning Apple is because its so open, anyone can buy a cpu and ram ,build there own workstation,for that reason alone is what atracted DCC developers to the wintel solution. If they(Sony) want to lead in the workstation market, it needs to be that open and affordable. lol.. just think about it, one day cell cpus would be so common place you can walk into a PC shop and buy the latest cell cpu and build your own workstation. One the low end of the spectrum, they could do what Apple is doing with the G5 workstation and sell them that way, but this isnt ideal for market domination.

I assume Cell is supposed to used in everything by STI, so i assume the cpu would be cheap even compared to Intel Xeon 3.0 Ghz(about 500 USD OEM). Do you have a link to the article that says you have you sing a contract? From all my research i have never seen anything mention about anyone signing any contract for the workstation.

If the contract + 10 K price tag is true, than they are going to have a tough time getting third party DCC developer to port there software(and a tough time braking into the DCC/Film market in general). In fact thats even worse than what SGI did in the past, and they lost to a more openly Wintel solution, where anyone can buy/build their own workstation , go figure ;).

The market has change alot since SGI, no matter how powerful the cell workstation is, the film/DCC industry as it is wont blend over backwards for Sony/IBM. Im sure the big film companies can afford 10k solution, but that would leave alot of freelancers out in the cold, they freelancers need it more than the film companies.

I guess i would have to agree more with Z on the openiness of the workstation, but thats base on what i read in the past and my knowledge of the current DCC/Film industry..not wishful thinking.

For what its worth, i think the Cell workstation well come in many configuration, price ranging from 2-5K(currenly price of workstation by AMD,Intel,Apple)

I hope they say something about this issue!! on Feb 6.

Now that you mention a lot of this, i wonder how poweful the workstation that the PS3 will be utilizing will be, because I'm sure all of them won't be the same in the amount of processing power they can put out.

[MegaGrid]

Just a thought,
There is a trend on PCs to construct big pipes (bandwidth) that are going to transfer data to the GPU memory. So the big white elephant can be fed with water...but as I have seen that PCI-Express cards have sth like 64-128bit memory interfaces on the GPU cards... A PS2 already has this bus, of course the clocks are better.
So a game on a good graphics card on a PC surely can beat PS2. The world can be reacher and better looking.
A PS3 will have a 1024 bit bus and lots of SIMDs executing on parallel commands.
I believe that it is going to pass some time until a PC GPU card can seriously compete the PS3. Don't you think?
Also OK suppose that the graphics can be reached, what about AI and physics?
Lets hope that the price of the PS3 wont be dissapointing. Because somebody surely would like to buy a Porche but can settle nicely to other less expensive but prestigeous cars...
Also the games that are going to be made must meet the users expectations on the new architecture that PS3 offers... not just nicer graphics. Lets hope so. :-)

[Z]

Didn't that happen with PS2, then Gamecube and Xbox? Didn't they perform better than PCs at their depot? If that was so, then it is expected for nex-gen consoles to outperform current PCs at the time, at least graphically. Of course that can only last so long till PCs catch up. If nex-gen consoles don't make this, then they will be on par with the best models, which will be too expensive for the average Joe, thus making the idea true, in a way. Isn't it also expected that nex-gen consoles will offer better results than the latest and very near future PC GPUs? Put in mind that they are being developed solely for gaming, thus they may perform better in certain ways than an average PC GPU.

[The_One]

Well Z, I think what he meant was, and I quote I believe that it is going to pass some time until a PC GPU card can seriously compete the PS3. Don't you think?
that it will take some time before the PC GPU's would catch up. Compare this with PS2, GC, and Xbox; it may have taken a while for the general consumer Graphics Card to surpass the PS2, but by the time the GC and XBox was released, the graphics card only took a few months to surpass the GC and XBox's GPU, but of course, this didn't mean we immediately saw more graphically superior game on the PC -- that still took a while ;).

[threepac3]

Well, by the time Sony launches the PS3 world wide most of the major processor companies will be Offering main stream duel core processors, running at maybe 6-7 gigahertz. And GPU companies will be pipping out next generation PCI-Express gpu's, But its never good to compare consoles to PC's.

[MegaGrid]

Yes but at what cost? In 2 years? The cost will be forbidding for the middle user. PS3 2006... 2 years or more of PS3 presence before seeing what you describe in affordable prices. Thats what I anticipate.
Also you should consider the scalability of the PS3 users etc etc...
Imagine from 2002 till now... Compare the sequels of PS2 games like GT ...
MGS, GTA, Prince of Persia, etc etc etc.
In fact now more than ecer people want to buy a PS2 even though the PC has more capabilities ;-)

Ok now. Beeing excited about NVIDIA and SONY joining hands I forgive you :-) I saw this with some delay due to me not being able to read PSInext. :-) I was a little bit worried if these two companies started competing in opposite camps. Seeing them together makes me very happy. The GPU was sth vague in PS3.

[kevindenoyette]

Well, by the time Sony launches the PS3 world wide most of the major processor companies will be Offering main stream duel core processors, running at maybe 6-7 gigahertz. And GPU companies will be pipping out next generation PCI-Express gpu's, But its never good to compare consoles to PC's.


No way will they have dual core processors clocked at 7 gigahertz by then yet. Not a chance.

[julps31]

Yeah thats number is way to far fetched. Maybe we'll see a little over 5ghz but I don't know how likely that is in about a year. CPU speeds do increase fast but not easily. So for CPU speeds to increase and then use a new multicore architeture an increase in clock speed from about 4ghz to 7ghz in a little over a year would mean that a lot would have to change in terms of production with companies like Pentium and AMD Plus the price of the computers would increase. That would be a large techniological shift in a small amount of time.

[MegaGrid]

The CELL architecture is much different than a PC. You can see in your minds how bulky the data stream is going to flow in a PC whether they increase the bandwidth or clocks (its like sending huge rocks with high speed to a grinder) and how smooth the data stream is going to flow with the CELL architecture.

[Alejux]

I agree that it's hard to compare a gaming console to a PC. Just look at a mid-range PC of today, with a 3GHz CPU, 1GB of RAM and a 5th or 6th generation GPU with 256MB of video RAM. Theoratically, this PC would have to be orders of magnitude faster and better then a PS2, with 300MHz and 32MB RAM. But in reality, they're not that better. Especially when you look at how good these last generation PS2 games coming out are.

That fact is, that gaming consoles serve one purpose. They're developed from top to bottom with only one end in mind. I believe that, if the CELL is fast as we hope (256 GFlop - 1 TFlop) and the next generation GPU takes good use of it's power, it won't be until 2009 or 2010 that the PS3 will start to get outperformed by highend PC's. And even that, will depend a lot on what nVIDIA and ATI will produce in the years to come.

[markjensen]

I agree that it's hard to compare a gaming console to a PC. Just look at a mid-range PC of today, with a 3GHz CPU, 1GB of RAM and a 5th or 6th generation GPU with 256MB of video RAM. Theoratically, this PC would have to be orders of magnitude faster and better then a PS2, with 300MHz and 32MB RAM. But in reality, they're not that better. Especially when you look at how good these last generation PS2 games coming out are.


Thats because of the hardware difference and the OS behind the games.

[MegaGrid]

I agree with you with one exception:
ATI X800 XT: 200GFlop. PS3 should reach 1TFlop.

[Z]

It would really depend on what Cell will deliver. I do expect PCs to take longer to out perform PS3 in particular due to Cell alone. nVidia and PS3's architecture only adds to that

- Just a side note: is that correct? I think PS2's RAM is lower.