PS3 Graphics Discussion Thread Part 7

[Matt]

Continuation of the PS3 graphics thread:

Part 1 (http://www.playstation3insider.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1126)
Part 2 (http://www.playstation3insider.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2142)
Part 3 (http://www.playstation3insider.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2270)
Part 4 (http://www.playstation3insider.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2477)
Part 5 (http://www.playstation3insider.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2624)
Part 6 (http://psinext.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2900)

As usual, keep it on-topic please.

[PeanutButterMunky]

Wooohoo!! First post!! Fresh thread!! :P

And yes, tech demos are usually beyond the actuall hardware capabilty, but it gives you an idea of what to expect.It doesn't really, renders mean nothing :/

[Chris Metal]

Hey, this is a little off topic, but does anyone have or know where I can find the renders or pics of Doom3 in their pre Normal Mapped (I think thats right) stage. Want to show someone how awful it looks.

Much appreciated thanks!:)

[PeanutButterMunky]

Wow...you could like...search the internet for that info instead of someone doing it for you, it's really quite simple ;)

Click Here For Amazing Fun Action and Vast Knowledge!! (http://www.google.com/)

[julps31]

It wouldn't hurt to tell him if you knew where he could find those pics. But anyway if PS3 graphics look like those EA concept image they would have lived up to my expectations and I certainly wouldn't be disappointed. *crosses fingers and hopes* Beautifal.

[Chris Metal]

Searched on Google already, well for Doom 3 renders, but thats useless if you don't know the best sites. You just get thousands of sites listed with stuff, most without anything to do with renders at all, just have Doom and 3 in them.

I just know people have posted a couple of pics before on this forum. You try searching through each of these graphics threads to find two or three renders, 20 pages each I might add. All I wanted was a little favour from someone who already had posted them previously. Too much to ask I suppose?

Anyway, I like the American Football image. If PS3 was to pull off that, I'd be impressed. I'm not as impressed however by the NFS image. When I see GT4 running on a PS2 I'd expect more than that image for a racing title Next-Gen.

[PeanutButterMunky]

It wouldn't hurt to tell him if you knew where he could find those pics.I would have done a Google search to find them...so...

[julps31]

It wouldn't hurt to tell him if you knew where he could find those pics.I would have done a Google search to find them...so...Yeah. I was just saying if you (rhetorical) knew where it was tell him.

Anyway, I like the American Football image. If PS3 was to pull off that, I'd be impressed. I'm not as impressed however by the NFS image. When I see GT4 running on a PS2 I'd expect more than that image for a racing title Next-Gen.
I agree. Man that Madden is beautifal. CG quality. But I expect more from a PS3 racer. At least GT5.

EDIT: Check this game out. Its a Next-gen game called war Devil and most likely coming out for the x-box 2 but possibly for the PS3. Only CG pics but the developer suggest that the in-game wont differ much.
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/570/570703p1.html

[Z]

Hey, this is a little off topic, but does anyone have or know where I can find the renders or pics of Doom3 in their pre Normal Mapped (I think thats right) stage. Want to show someone how awful it looks.

Much appreciated thanks!:)

you can find pics and links to much more pics in the "in-game CG graphics a reality?!" thread. just open the last page and turn back a little. it was posted and mentioned a little while ago.
but be warned; they look REALLY ugly- PSOne is much better, in fact! aaah, the irony...
wink:

[Dralor]

Nvidia is now officially isn the PS3!!
Now only if I knew how to attach the press release. :cry:

[threepac3]

Nvidia is now officially isn the PS3!!
Now only if I knew how to attach the press release. :cry:

"Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. and NVIDIA Announce Joint GPU Development for SCEI's Next-Generation Computer Entertainment System

TOKYO and SANTA CLARA, Calif., Dec. 7 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (SCEI) and NVIDIA Corporation (Nasdaq: NVDA) today announced that the companies have been collaborating on bringing advanced graphics technology and computer entertainment technology to SCEI's highly anticipated next-generation computer entertainment system. Both companies are jointly developing a custom graphics processing unit (GPU) incorporating NVIDIA's next-generation GeForce(TM) and SCEI's system solutions for next-generation computer entertainment systems featuring the Cell* processor.

(Logo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20020613/NVDALOGO

http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20041207/SFTU096 )
This collaboration is made under a broad, multi-year, royalty-bearing agreement. The powerful custom GPU will be the graphics and image processing foundation for a broad range of applications from computer entertainment to broadband applications. The agreement will encompass future Sony digital consumer electronics products.

"In the future, the experience of computer entertainment systems and broadband-ready PCs will be fused together to generate and transfer multi-streams of rich content simultaneously. In this sense, we have found the best way to integrate the state-of-the-art technologies from NVIDIA and SCEI," said Ken Kutaragi, executive deputy president and COO, Sony Corporation, and president and Group CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. "Our collaboration includes not only the chip development but also a variety of graphics development tools and middleware, essential for efficient content creation."

"We are thrilled to partner with Sony Computer Entertainment to build what will certainly be one of the most important computer entertainment and digital media platforms of the twenty-first century," added Jen-Hsun Huang, president and CEO, NVIDIA. "Over the past two years NVIDIA has worked closely with Sony Computer Entertainment on their next-generation computer entertainment system. In parallel, we have been designing our next-generation GeForce GPU. The combination of the revolutionary Cell processor and NVIDIA's graphics technologies will enable the creation of breathtaking imagery that will surprise and captivate consumers."

The custom GPU will be manufactured at Sony Group's Nagasaki Fab2 as well as OTSS (joint fabrication facility of Toshiba and Sony)."



Source: Nvidia

One word -- AWSOME!!

Not only is it Sony Vs. Microsoft its Nvidia Vs. ATI...

[Marjoh]

I read that news like a few hours ago. And I really don't know what to say. I thought Sony is developing the GPU in-house. But this is the first official news regarding the GPU, and they did it in a big way.

I just hope it was design from the ground up for the console to accommodate the Cell and won't be PC-like like the NVIDIA found in Xbox.

BTW, do you think Sony came to NVIDIA before or after NVIDIA and Microsoft's business relation went sour.

[axia777]

nvidia and Sony, a match made in heaven. Man, nvidia is gonna make tons of cash off this deal. I want to know what GPU chipset they will use, or is tottaly custom? I imagine custom, but seeing the features would be nice. :wink: Yah know I realized that one of the only real advatages that X-Box is the GPU is more powerful. Not any more. Many can argue that nvidia and ATI are neck in neck pretty much in the world of GPU's. Now if X-Box:Next and PS3 have comperable GPU's, then the core processor will then become the point of contention. And Cell is gonna kick Xenon's ass all over the block, in my opinion from information gathered thus far. Let PS3 rein man.

[julps31]

I'm shocked and...and pleased about this news. :) I would have never imagined that Sony would partner with Nvidia to make the PS3 GPU. What do you know. I was pleasntly suprised. Well, finally Nvidia will be back in the public eye. I'm sure it will be custom made for the PS3.

[axia777]

All I know is that PS3 is not gonna have anti-aliasing problems at launch, un-like a certain console most of us love. I still wanna see all the features that they are gonna pack into the GPU and how much RAM the chip set is gonna have. Mmmmmm, it makes me drool at the thought of a super phat nvidia GPU custom designed with Sony powering PS3. So awesome.

[PeanutButterMunky]

All I know is that PS3 is not gonna have anti-aliasing problems at launch, un-like a certain console most of us love.
But without jaggies, the console will NEVER be a success ;) j/k But with these last generation of games, the anti-aliasing is definitely way above par, and a lot more noticeable in games now. They look so pretty =)

[oxygenuk]

Cant wait, just look at the quality of Nvidia graphic chips now, betime they're in the ps3 itll be at least 2 - 3 times more powerful than todays :twisted: :shock:

[PeanutButterMunky]

Why are there like, 3 members using the same Linux penguin for their avvy? :shock:

And yes, NVIDIA chips are very tasty ;)

[senas8]

Why are there like, 3 members using the same Linux penguin for their avvy? :shock:

And yes, NVIDIA chips are very tasty ;)
Maybe it's because they all use the linux OS and the linux avvy...would give you a Clue of their OS choice. :?

[PeanutButterMunky]

Wow...gee. I think I could have guessed that on my own. And if if everyone was using Windows then we should all use the Windows logo for our avatars? That would be a lack individuality, don't you think??

[axia777]

All I know is that PS3 is not gonna have anti-aliasing problems at launch, un-like a certain console most of us love.
But without jaggies, the console will NEVER be a success ;) j/k But with these last generation of games, the anti-aliasing is definitely way above par, and a lot more noticeable in games now. They look so pretty =)

Yes, current PS2 games do look pretty. But, I imagine that the anti-aliasing problems with PS2 were an embaressment, no matter how you look at it. I think one of the reasons that Sony went with nvidia is becuase of the graphical problems they had with PS2. They found that they make processors better than GPUs. So, they got some help. No shame in that. nvidia rocks! :D :wink:

[oxygenuk]

smackdown vs raw graphics are very pretty and thats just on the ps2, cant wait to see smackdown on ps3, imagine.. bvra and panties match, ahh 8) :lol:

[sub1zero]

Watch it guy. You're gonna get SMOKED if you are gonna talk about WWE here in this FORUM.

Especially when there are GAMES like MGS3 and Jak 3 and Ratchet 3 which look 10 TIMES better than Smackdown VS Raw does.

[PeanutButterMunky]

You shouldn't get "smoked" for having an opinion. Plus he's afraid to go outside so he likes to play with his video game girlies ;)

[julps31]

All I know is that PS3 is not gonna have anti-aliasing problems at launch, un-like a certain console most of us love.
But without jaggies, the console will NEVER be a success ;) j/k But with these last generation of games, the anti-aliasing is definitely way above par, and a lot more noticeable in games now. They look so pretty =)

Yes, current PS2 games do look pretty. But, I imagine that the anti-aliasing problems with PS2 were an embaressment, no matter how you look at it. I think one of the reasons that Sony went with nvidia is becuase of the graphical problems they had with PS2. They found that they make processors better than GPUs. So, they got some help. No shame in that. nvidia rocks! :D :wink:
Even though anti-aliasing is being implemented into games much better its still more apparent on the PS2 than any other console. Especially in games like GTA:San Andreas which isn't the best looking game on the PS2 but far from the worst. The GPU should help developers use it in game easier and without as much hassle. I can't wait to hear what the GPU architecture will be either.

[axia777]

I agree. But SnakeEater was pretty, and had good anti-aliasing. But with an nvidia GPU in PS3 it will be all good. Anti-aliasing, pixel shaders, ect. All built in I imagine. We will see this E3 I hope. If I was nvidia and I wanted to take full advantage of the PS3 unveiling, I would put full details of the GPU right up there next to PS3. I think nvidia made a sound business decision by leaving Microsoft and going with Sony. There is obviously more money involved with Sony. Just like game developers making the majority of new games on PS2. Majority mob rulez. :twisted:

[julps31]

I agree. A lot more games have less aliasing than in the past. Ace combat 5, MGS 3, GT4. ect I have a good feeling that the PS3 will blow the x-box 2 out of the water in terms of graphical performance. Its been stated that since the cell will be multi-threaded it should be able to handle some of the graphical task too. So the GPU should be less of an neccesity this time around meaning that you can push the GPU even further because the cell will some of the workload off the GPU.

"Most importantly to the discussion of graphics, the Cell is multithreaded and is expected to handle some of the graphics processing for the console. This may mean that the GPU will play more of a secondary role in the PS3 than it does in current consoles."

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20041207-4440.html

[axia777]

Well that just kicks some major ass. I can not wait to see what the PS3 is capable of. E3 is gonna kick some major ass as well. I want to go. I wonder what kind of tech demo's Sony will do for graphics. I have seen those XNA demos and they are good, but not mind blowing. I expect PS3 to blow my mind. Better than Half-Life 2 in my opinion, I hope. I am hopeing for graphics like the UnReal 3.0 engine, in real time. That would be sweet. :D

[megadrive]

edit: moved what I was posting to Nvidia thread.

[Rallyracr420]

If I remember correctly:

-PS2-
Non textured polys = 70 Million Polys/sec
Single textured polys = 35 Million Polys/sec
Double textured polys = 17.5 Million Polys/sec

-x50-
Non textured polys = 3.5 Billion Polys/sec
Single textured polys = 1.75 Billion Polys/sec
Double textured polys = 875 Million Polys/sec

[PeanutButterMunky]

The x50 what what???

[megadrive]

it is still impossible to nail down exact or near-exact performance figures for PS3.

all we can assume is: PS3 will be capable of billions of simple non-textured (or maybe single-textured) polygons/sec and hundreds of millions of multi-textured, lit, pixel shaded, filtered, anti-aliased polygons/sec

[threepac3]

The x50 what what???

The head of Nvidia said something like the gpu will be around 50x more powerfull then ps2's graphix snthesizer

[ps3man]

If I remember correctly:

-PS2-
Non textured polys = 70 Million Polys/sec
Single textured polys = 35 Million Polys/sec
Double textured polys = 17.5 Million Polys/sec

-x50-
Non textured polys = 3.5 Billion Polys/sec
Single textured polys = 1.75 Billion Polys/sec
Double textured polys = 875 Million Polys/sec

I don't think the drop is going to be that big. PS3 is going to be more efficant and use it's memory more wisely than the ps2.

[PeanutButterMunky]

The x50 what what???

The head of Nvidia said something like the gpu will be around 50x more powerfull then ps2's graphix snthesizer
Oh...thanks =) And that would be a LOT.

[ultimategamer2004]

yes with the power of the ps2 and the latest games are looking great so i cant imagine what it would lok likeif the gpu in the PS3 was 50x more powerful it would be a feast for your eyes but i think that may be far fetched.

[julps31]

yes with the power of the ps2 and the latest games are looking great so i cant imagine what it would lok likeif the gpu in the PS3 was 50x more powerful it would be a feast for your eyes but i think that may be far fetched.
Yeah. I'm sure its going to be a large leap in power but I don't know if its going to be that big of a leap. Either way the PS3 will be a graphical powerhouse, i'm sure.

[pc999]

Remember that current GPU have news functionalitys like PixelShaders so expecte that if it survives to the 50X figure that power will be dilucted bettwen others things.

[Brandon]

50X is still considerably less than what Sony previously stated they hoped to achieve with the PS3. But there isn't a clear indication of what the final product will be, although there are educated guesses ;)

[Rallyracr420]

50X is still considerably less than what Sony previously stated they hoped to achieve with the PS3. But there isn't a clear indication of what the final product will be, although there are educated guesses ;)

If you're talking about the 1000x stat that kutaragi mentioned a few years ago, it could still be true. We need to know more information on the Cell and how the PS3 is going to use it. 50x for a GPU is gonna be awesome.

[Brandon]

Yes, I was referring to the 1000x statement made by Ken Kutaragi. 50x would be quite awesome...but like everyone has said, we simply need more information.

[axia777]

E3! :wink:

[Theo]

Perhaps the 1000x statement was referring to the CPU instead of the overall power of the ps3 (by using the great power of the cell)? 50x for the GPU sounds pretty good, of course I'm assuming that it includes advanced trics with it.

[Z]

Yes, I was referring to the 1000x statement made by Ken Kutaragi. 50x would be quite awesome...but like everyone has said, we simply need more information.
That’s the thing; they said PS3 could be up to 1000 times more than PS2. but in what?
That is certainly the case with Cell, and that is what they were referring too. The only thing left is whether the GPU will utilize the full potention of monster Cell.
I do expect a similar leap, if not bigger, from PS2 to PS3 as it was from PSOne to PS2.
:twisted:

[Brandon]

I do expect a similar leap, if not bigger, from PS2 to PS3 as it was from PSOne to PS2.
Either way, it's going to be amazing...

[Theo]

I do expect a similar leap, if not bigger, from PS2 to PS3 as it was from PSOne to PS2.
Either way, it's going to be amazing...

I'm not sure when it comes to the specs, but I believe the leap in the overall graphics will be bigger than it was form psone to ps2 8) .

[RichardCypher101]

As been quoted in the past, Cell is shooting for a performance of 1TFLOP.

For the Processor to be 1000x as powerful as the PS2's, the PS3's Cell would have to be performing at 6.2TFLOPS, and with current analysis mathematical calcualtions, that is more than likely not possible (.00001% happening for the PS3).

The 1TFLOP number however is in the realms of possibility still, so keep you ears open for news to pour in within the next few monthes.

-Rich

[The_One]

If I remember correctly:

-PS2-
Non textured polys = 70 Million Polys/sec
Single textured polys = 35 Million Polys/sec
Double textured polys = 17.5 Million Polys/sec

-x50-
Non textured polys = 3.5 Billion Polys/sec
Single textured polys = 1.75 Billion Polys/sec
Double textured polys = 875 Million Polys/sec
For PS2, It's:
- 75 Million
- 37.5 M
- 18.75 M
(Once again, just being a nit pick)

Also, for PS3, you can't simply multiply that number by 50 times. Why? PS3's GPU won't work in the same way the PS2's GPU work, which means that pixel count won't decrease by half per every layer of texture.

[amod20002004]

As been quoted in the past, Cell is shooting for a performance of 1TFLOP.

For the Processor to be 1000x as powerful as the PS2's, the PS3's Cell would have to be performing at 6.2TFLOPS, and with current analysis mathematical calcualtions, that is more than likely not possible (.00001% happening for the PS3).

The 1TFLOP number however is in the realms of possibility still, so keep you ears open for news to pour in within the next few monthes.

-Rich
As I said before simple maths is not going to help us anymore. We can’t calculate 1 teraflop chip performance with the help of simple maths calculations. Like 1024G.F./6.2G.F.
or 6.2G.F. X 1000x = 6.2 teraflops.[1000x performance of ps2 in teraflops]
These kind of simple calculation are not going to help us to measure actual performance of one teraflop chip. How? I have given a very close example to prove my point in other thread. Here it is.

1000 times performance means ps3’s cell chip has to achieve 6.2 teraflop statement looks faulty. I have never heard this type of talk from Sony in any single article. Yes, it is true that I have heard this calculation from several member of this forum but it doesn’t really clarify any facts. Xbox has 3 [G.F.] processing power means almost half of the ps2[6.2G.F.] and still has shown way better graphics than ps2.And also xbox is somewhere between 0.25 to 1.25 times more powerful than ps2. By the theory of gigaflops, xbox must have to show poor graphics than ps2 or it should be less powerful than ps2 but it didn’t happened. So what I am talking about is flops are important but they are not everything. It is not necessary for ps3 to achieve 6.2-teraflop performances to become 1000 times more powerful than ps2. Otherwise Sony would have stated it years ago. After looking at xbox I can confidently say that with the help of other factors such as GPU and memory, XDR ram, texture levels etc and other detailed things with say 1 to 2-teraflop-chip ps3 can achieve target of 1000 times more powerful hardware than ps2

[Rallyracr420]

When nVidia's pres says the new chip is about 50x more powerful, what do all you think he's talking about? Texel fill rate, polys per sec, etc?

[amod20002004]

When nVidia's pres says the new chip is about 50x more powerful, what do all you think he's talking about? Texel fill rate, polys per sec, etc?
Well, let’s say like this. '50 times more powerful ps3 GPU than ps2' doesn’t really clarifies anything. It also doesn’t make any impact on previously set target of 1000x performance over ps2. Frankly speaking, we must wait up to Feb.[if we are lucky] or E32005 to get detail specification about ps3 GPU.

[Rallyracr420]

Of course we have to wait to really know for sure. That's why I'm just asking for opinions. A GPU is less complex than the PS3 as a whole and we have some pretty smart ppl around here so I figured we could come up with a good educated guess.

50x is much more specific number and its one that has been given recently, after the GPU development had been done. 1000x was given a few years ago, and before the Cell was even close to being finished. Besides, someone saying 1000x is a pretty generic statement.

So any guesses on what stats the nVidia guy is using to come up with 50x?

[amod20002004]

They are also talking about 2 GPU in single console concept for ps3. Which looks very promising to me. But I don’t know exactly how this process is going to work.

[The_One]

When nVidia's pres says the new chip is about 50x more powerful, what do all you think he's talking about? Texel fill rate, polys per sec, etc? I'm gonna say overall performance increases by 50 folds. Which means we WON'T see 50 times the poly count, fill rate, etc... The increase in performance will possibly be evened out in different areas, such as extra features and such.

[megadrive]

according Nvidia, in the most recent Nvidia webcast conference, Nvidia is making the PlayStation3 graphics processor in its 'entirety'

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19082

I'll update when I've heard more.

[cpiasminc]

Okay -- I posted this on the other thread, but it really probably should be here.

Okay, I listened through the webcast, and the actual statement is a little more vague than that. Earlier in the talk, he did say that the GPU is "based on" nVidia's next-gen technology, and specifically made the point that it is custom-built to leverage the nature of the Cell-based system architecture. It was brought up later, though, that the deal is really an intellectual property deal.


"Although it's structured, ultimately, as a royalty deal, and the reason for that is ... [series of comments on Sony's process technology and manufacturing by Sony]... However the way that I think about it, is it's no different from a chip that I'm building -- I'm building a chip... in it's entirety... and then I think about the gross profits that are consistent with a device like that. And so, the way I think about that is that it's a very high volume strategic design. It's going to run for many many years, and the gross profits that we'd get from something like this should be consistent with one of our GPUs."


He did mention, though, that they'd basically been working with Sony since the very beginning of the PS3 project. So even though the statement suggests that nVidia is probably doing pretty much everything on the GPU, it will be fairly exclusive to the PS3 and work well with it.

[Splitter]

Now all three next-gen consoles have PC-related graphics architecture.
I guess creating a multi-platform title (PS3, Xbox2, Revolution, PC) will be easier than ever.
Many publishers must be very pleased right now…

[RichardCypher101]

http://www.psinext.com/itex.php?iid=460


Its design will be in its own league, as Huang noted that "It's nothing to do with Windows, it doesn't use any of the Windows features, and it's not about driving Windows," he said. "It's not about the PC at all." Which relieves many.

As been quoted in the past, Cell is shooting for a performance of 1TFLOP.

For the Processor to be 1000x as powerful as the PS2's, the PS3's Cell would have to be performing at 6.2TFLOPS, and with current analysis mathematical calcualtions, that is more than likely not possible (.00001% happening for the PS3).

The 1TFLOP number however is in the realms of possibility still, so keep you ears open for news to pour in within the next few monthes.

-Rich
As I said before simple maths is not going to help us anymore. We can’t calculate 1 teraflop chip performance with the help of simple maths calculations. Like 1024G.F./6.2G.F.
or 6.2G.F. X 1000x = 6.2 teraflops.[1000x performance of ps2 in teraflops]
These kind of simple calculation are not going to help us to measure actual performance of one teraflop chip. How? I have given a very close example to prove my point in other thread. Here it is.

1000 times performance means ps3’s cell chip has to achieve 6.2 teraflop statement looks faulty. I have never heard this type of talk from Sony in any single article. Yes, it is true that I have heard this calculation from several member of this forum but it doesn’t really clarify any facts. Xbox has 3 [G.F.] processing power means almost half of the ps2[6.2G.F.] and still has shown way better graphics than ps2.And also xbox is somewhere between 0.25 to 1.25 times more powerful than ps2. By the theory of gigaflops, xbox must have to show poor graphics than ps2 or it should be less powerful than ps2 but it didn’t happened. So what I am talking about is flops are important but they are not everything. It is not necessary for ps3 to achieve 6.2-teraflop performances to become 1000 times more powerful than ps2. Otherwise Sony would have stated it years ago. After looking at xbox I can confidently say that with the help of other factors such as GPU and memory, XDR ram, texture levels etc and other detailed things with say 1 to 2-teraflop-chip ps3 can achieve target of 1000 times more powerful hardware than ps2

Coincidently, graphics arent necessarily measured by the strength of the processor, but rather the strength of the graphic arm (GPU). The CPU and GPU are totally different things.

The Cell Technology at no time has been stated (and even now its been debunked) to be doing any graphics processing in the PS3. That is up to Nvidia.

We are talking about the processor, rather than the GPU.

Now, for Cell, acting as a CPU alone, to outperform the PS2's Emotion Engine, in terms of FLOPs, it'll have to have a raw 6.2TFLOP peak performance.

Now it appears you're wanting to compare the PS3 and PS2 as a whole. The PS3 being 1000x more powerful than the PS2 as a whole, is nearly, and more than likely completely impossible.

-Rich

[amod20002004]

Yes, you are right. And I don’t think that Sony will use 6.2 teraflop chip in ps3. The safe bet would be around say 1 or 2 teraflop chip. That’s it.

[Brandon]

That would NOT be a safe bet, as we have no possible way of knowing how many they are going to implement into the PS3. Assumptions are all we have at this point.

[Theo]

That would NOT be a safe bet, as we have no possible way of knowing how many they are going to implement into the PS3. Assumptions are all we have at this point.

Yes. This is true. I have been wondering how many it will end up to be, but all I know is that a lot depends on the costs of the chip. ( I like the idea that they could put a load of cells in the ps3, because it is supposed to be very flexible and do a GScube-like thing, only powered by cells :roll: . Well, perhaps it's not reality, but there's some idea in it.

[Z]

First, I trust Sony- everything they are doing for PS3 is very promising. When nVidia jumped aboard, I was thrilled. “Give it to the pros” I always say. But one thing is bothering me. I am afraid that nVidia’s GPU will not utilize full capabilities of Cell, and thus act as a ‘bottle neck’. Yes, a lot of nVidia’s engineers have been working on this for years, yet still. What brings my doubt is nVidia’s statements. I still feel it is a nex-gen PC card modified for PS3. can anyone ease my worrying a bit?

[Omega Blue]

considering they completely scrapped their NV5x projectt, are skipping a generation, i am actually very confident that nVidia have some very powerful up their sleeve.

nVidia are tired of being tied with ATI, they want to make a move, Its gonna happen with their next GPU. in theory the way the generations work, the nVidia tech should actually be one generation ahead of the R5xx being put out by ATI. The same R5xx being used in the XBox 2.

[Rallyracr420]

I've only heard reports of nVidia scrapping the NV48 and NV50. You think they're really gonna jump a generation ahead to NV60?

[megadrive]

Nvidia never said NV50 was cancelled. only industry rumor tabloid said that. cant take it as fact, yet.

[Brandon]

First, I trust Sony- everything they are doing for PS3 is very promising. When nVidia jumped aboard, I was thrilled. “Give it to the pros” I always say. But one thing is bothering me. I am afraid that nVidia’s GPU will not utilize full capabilities of Cell, and thus act as a ‘bottle neck’. Yes, a lot of nVidia’s engineers have been working on this for years, yet still. What brings my doubt is nVidia’s statements. I still feel it is a nex-gen PC card modified for PS3. can anyone ease my worrying a bit?
I know what you mean. I'm getting that same weird feeling as well. I hope they know what they're doing...

[Omega Blue]

Nvidia never said NV50 was cancelled. only industry rumor tabloid said that. cant take it as fact, yet.

WRONG!!! nVidia hasn't said anything "anything" meaning confirmation on whether its true or not. Which of course they wont, cause then they'll be flooded with questions about what it is they are really working. Guess why you haven't heard a label put on the next generation technology being used for the Ps3 GPU, because nVidia doesn't want anyone knowing. If it was the NV50 tech, then they'd really have nothing to hide.

If by "rumor tabloid" you mean The Inquirer, who you seem to be ignorantly confusing with the Enquirer (both cover very diffrent subjects, ran by as far as i know diffrent people) then you would be mistaken. Guess who was first to find out the R400 was set aside and the R420 to its place? They are right more often then not, but of course no News bringing site is gonna be 100% accurate, that goes without saying.

[threepac3]

There is still news trickling down the wire about features that the NV50 supposedly will have; so I dun know how valid the info that the Inquirer provided is entirely true.

[amod20002004]

Ps3 will feature 50x more powerful GPU than ps2. Guys from The Nextbox.com[xbox fanboys] are worried by this news. :D

[The_One]

Ps3 will feature 50x more powerful GPU than ps2. Guys from The Nextbox.com[xbox fanboys] are worried by this news. :D Well, 50 times more powerful then PS2's GS is quite vague (as we have already established countless times before...). There's no way to know in what ways is it more powerful, and 50 times cannot mean 50 times better in all fields....

[Z]

It would be a risky move for nVidia to spill out their work; ATI will be quick to adjust their card to counter any mistakes or problems they may have. That is why I expect the full specs about PS3’s GPU – and perhaps all the rest parts- will be announced as soon as Xenon hits the market.
MS can actually declare final hardware specs before releasing Xenon just to let Sony react to them, then change it again….or is that just too much?

[amod20002004]

Ps3 will feature 50x more powerful GPU than ps2. Guys from The Nextbox.com[xbox fanboys] are worried by this news. :D Well, 50 times more powerful then PS2's GS is quite vague (as we have already established countless times before...). There's no way to know in what ways is it more powerful, and 50 times cannot mean 50 times better in all fields....
Yes, absolutely right. But xbox fans are really scared by this news.

[The_One]

Ps3 will feature 50x more powerful GPU than ps2. Guys from The Nextbox.com[xbox fanboys] are worried by this news. :D Well, 50 times more powerful then PS2's GS is quite vague (as we have already established countless times before...). There's no way to know in what ways is it more powerful, and 50 times cannot mean 50 times better in all fields....
Yes, absolutely right. But xbox fans are really scared by this news. They should have been scared from the start... :lol:. I guess they didn't really believe the power of the CELL and the PS3's GPU until some solid proof came out eh?

P.S: Do you have a link to the thread that they are talking in?

[Playstation]

shit...sony seems to be doing everything right.....the easy development...powerful cell processor..and now nVidia behind the GPU.....effing....CG graphics couldnt be seen any clearer. Damn, looking forward to the next E3 and Tokyo Game show definitely.

[Theo]

shit...sony seems to be doing everything right.....the easy development...powerful cell processor..and now nVidia behind the GPU.....effing....CG graphics couldnt be seen any clearer. Damn, looking forward to the next E3 and Tokyo Game show definitely.

You got some point there, but this is the goal of hype. We have to stay realistic here, because all we got now is loud words with hardly any facts (or demonstrations for that matter). I agree that it looks pretty good, but we will yet have to see if the ps3 lives to the hype. :wink:

[High Lander]

P.S: Do you have a link to the thread that they are talking in?


http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?s=8024d6523eb76824ca4c7e33475b93b8&showf orum=92

[julps31]

shit...sony seems to be doing everything right.....the easy development...powerful cell processor..and now nVidia behind the GPU.....effing....CG graphics couldnt be seen any clearer. Damn, looking forward to the next E3 and Tokyo Game show definitely.

You got some point there, but this is the goal of hype. We have to stay realistic here, because all we got now is loud words with hardly any facts (or demonstrations for that matter). I agree that it looks pretty good, but we will yet have to see if the ps3 lives to the hype. :wink:
I already feel like it lived up to the hype to an certain extent. When PS2 came out they hyped so much but there wasn't really anything to back it up. No Cell, no blu-ray no xdr-ram, no Nvidia processor. Just the 295 mhz emotion engine and the graphics synthesizer.

[Domination]

shit...sony seems to be doing everything right.....the easy development...powerful cell processor..and now nVidia behind the GPU.....effing....CG graphics couldnt be seen any clearer. Damn, looking forward to the next E3 and Tokyo Game show definitely.

You got some point there, but this is the goal of hype. We have to stay realistic here, because all we got now is loud words with hardly any facts (or demonstrations for that matter). I agree that it looks pretty good, but we will yet have to see if the ps3 lives to the hype. :wink:

By far, one of the best responses yet. All we know are Sony's goals being much higher than the others. Beyond this is pure speculation at the moment. I eagely await the time of its public showing.

[Rob78]

I found what looks like an in-game screenshot of a Studio 3 game slated to be released as as a PS3 launch game:


http://home.btconnect.com/hgi/ps3/ps3LN.jpg

If this is a real screen of the game, than all of our expectations have been set to high, looks more like current generation PC graphics to me.

[The_One]

@Rob: Hehehe... You've been FOOLED. That's a PS2 title, not a PS3 launch title ;).

[Rob78]

Really? Well, I am sorry for posting it than.

[senas8]

Men all I have to say...just looking at the psp..how comparable it is to ps2...the graphics...are amazing....now this is a handheld....I think the ps3 will make the ps2 look like...what the ps2 makes nintendo gameboy look like. I dont know..but ..... :roll:

[Marjoh]

Yeah, those aren't taken from next-gen game...sort of, maybe. Actually those screen are taken from an early build of an early generation Xbox game called The Last Ninja (they say that it was also a PS2 title). It was delayed a few times until it was canned altogether (confirmed). But rumor has it that the development have now switch to the next-gen consoles.

[Domination]

I found what looks like an in-game screenshot of a Studio 3 game slated to be released as as a PS3 launch game:


http://home.btconnect.com/hgi/ps3/ps3LN.jpg

If this is a real screen of the game, than all of our expectations have been set to high, looks more like current generation PC graphics to me.

That's because it is. :lol:

There was artical to these stills over at GameSpot about a company
wanting to bring this game to the PS2 to compete with Ninja Gaiden.
This game you are talking about is called Ninja. :wink:

[5ysT3m cR45h3r]

The graphics in those screenshots, in my eyes, don't measure up to my PS3 expectations.

[Omega Blue]

The graphics in those screenshots, in my eyes, don't measure up to my PS3 expectations.

it shouldn't, those screenshots were originally from the current gen based engine. It was supposed to be on the XBox, then got cancelled and was gonna show up on the Ps2, then just fell off now they started on a new engine thats supposed to be on the Ps3. I remember reading the whole story.

[megadrive]

The graphics in those screenshots, in my eyes, don't measure up to my PS3 expectations.


thats not PS3 graphics. it *was* for Xbox/PS2

[megadrive]

real-time flight simulator running on some Evans & Sutherland system
http://www.es.com/solutions/F35C_Nellis.jpg

this should be no problem for PS3. in fact AC5 on PS2 is almost there. all that PS2 lacks as far as the above image is enough anti-aliasing, texture res, and screen res. actually I think PS3 should beat this by quite a bit.

[kevindenoyette]

I should hope not, it looks worse than AC5

[amod20002004]

I should hope not, it looks worse than AC5
I must say Kevin is right. I own ACE combat5. Therefore I also know that ACE5 has shown some outstanding graphics.

[Alejux]

Incredible, isn't it. Just 10 years ago, these machines used to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[Marjoh]

IMO AC5 isn't as impressive as some people tends to, in terms of overall performance. The aircraft have nice details, but not near the cars on GT4. And the environments just tricks your eye. But overall, it's a great game. So plz don't think I'm bashing the game in any way. Just comparing it to what's to come, graphics wise.

Now let's all hope Namco would finally include online multi-dogfight next time. If you think the game is intense with AI, just imagine playing with or against 16+ real life players?

[xbdestroya]

Here's some NVidia PS3 GPU news I posted elsewhere. Good? Bad? You be the judge!!!

PlayStation 3 GPU: NV40 and NV50 Hybrid with XDR DRAM, Says Report
Peculiarities of PlayStation 3 Graphics Chip Emerge

by Anton Shilov
12/28/2004 | 01:04 PM

Some peculiarities of the PlayStation 3 graphics processing unit developed at NVIDIA Corp. showed up on the web. It appears, that the visual processing unit will merge NVIDIA’s present and future generation architectures and will have built-in memory controller that supports Rambus’ XDR DRAM.

PlayStation 3 GPU Details Materialize

A report over Japanese web-site PC Watch suggests that the PlayStation 3 graphics processing unit will use NVIDIA’s technologies found in the current NV40 generation of its own chips as well as numerous techniques developed for the next-generation part known under NV50 code-name. Still, despite of circuitries of the company’s desktop chips found in the GPU, according to NVIDIA’s chief Jen-Hsun Huang, the PlayStation 3 GPU has nothing to do with Microsoft Windows, Microsoft DirectX or OpenGL and will use Sony’s API for the console. Naturally, the PlayStation 3 graphics processing units supports XDR DRAM memory developed by Rambus. While there is nothing new in Rambus memory for Sony, NVIDIA has never worked with memory by Rambus.

Jen-Hsun Huang, NVIDIA’s CEO and President said the two companies had worked closely “over the past two years” on the “next-generation computer entertainment system”. He said the company had been designing its next-generation GeForce GPU in parallel. It is unclear which chip Mr. Huang referred. NVIDIA is currently developing graphics processors code-named NV47 and NV50. The latter was recently rumoured to be cancelled, though.

The custom GPU will be manufactured at Sony Group’s Nagasaki Fab2 as well as OTSS (joint fabrication facility of Toshiba and Sony). The Sony’s Nagasaki Fab2 facility is known to use 65nm SOI fabrication process jointly developed by IBM. The fab is expected to be able to produce 15 thousand of 300mm wafers a month.

XDR Memory – Ideal for Consumer Apps, Target for Graphics Cards

Numerous leading consumer electronics companies, such as Sony or Panasonic, said they would adopt Rambus’ XDR memory for their devices, including Sony’s PlayStation 3 console and Panasonic’s digital TV-sets. Certain networking companies are also interested in XDR. Another target market for XDR memory may be graphics cards, according to reports earlier this year.

XDR DRAM can operate at 3.20GHz to 6.40GHz clock-speeds, providing industry leading bandwidth per pin, which is a benefit for networking and consumer applications.

“Graphics seems to be one of the important initial targets for XDR, as graphics applications today have nearly unlimited need for bandwidth out of a single DRAM. Networking is another important market as networking cards need high bandwidth but low capacity,” a source close to Rambus and GPU makers told X-bit labs earlier this year.

“Rambus has been in discussion with many different graphics processor manufacturers about XDR memory. There are not many choices for high-speed memory for GPU manufacturers, so it is natural that they would like to know about XDR and what it offers for their products,” the source noted.

Rambus offers memory controller that can work with DDR, DDR2, GDDR2, GDDR3 and XDR DRAM types of memory. While NVIDIA will have to implement an XDR-supporting memory controller into its PlayStation 3 GPU, it is yet unclear, whether the company licenses’ Rambus controller, or develops its own. In both cases the controller may be used for different applications developed by NVIDIA Corp., including consumer, graphics, desktop and networking.

[Brandon]

That's an interesting read, thanks =) The info regarding the CELL for PS3 is still rather vague at this point in time :/ It's still good to read new info, though.

[Omega Blue]

the information is false, its not a "NV40/NV50" hybrid, its based off next gen tech which is "NV50", but the NV50 was cancelled. And nVidia has yet to announce their next chip so as of right now we dont know what exactly will be in the Ps3, just that its being developed with nVidia.

[Brandon]

Here's some NVidia PS3 GPU news I posted elsewhere.
Where's the link?

the information is false, its not a "NV40/NV50" hybrid, its based off next gen tech which is "NV50", but the NV50 was cancelled. And nVidia has yet to announce their next chip so as of right now we dont know what exactly will be in the Ps3, just that its being developed with nVidia.
Now that I think about it, the article seems questionable. 700+ people over many years have been developing this NVIDIA GPU alongside the PS3, and I believe it's being developed from the ground up just like the CELL architecture was. I don't think they're going to mess around and mesh 2 different types of GPUs together for the PS3.

[julps31]

If any of that news is true I would be most excited about the news about the XDR-ram. Maybe the PS3 GPU will have a on chip XDR-ram. I couldn't imagine how fast it would be though. Super fast is all I can say. I just hope it would have a high capacity also. It would make since to make the GPU using the 65 nm process than. We should know soon enough.

[Alejux]

From the little we read from nVidia, they made it clear that the next generation GPU (both for PS3 and PC), will be much, much more then just a vamped up NV40. And I'm sure Sony wouldn't settle for less, considering all the investment on the PS3. Also according to the press release, they intend for the GPU to have a much higher interaction with the CPU, abandoning the current

CPU --> GPU --> DISPLAY

for a

CPU <--> GPU --> DISPLAY

[xbdestroya]

Here's some NVidia PS3 GPU news I posted elsewhere.
Where's the link?

the information is false, its not a "NV40/NV50" hybrid, its based off next gen tech which is "NV50", but the NV50 was cancelled. And nVidia has yet to announce their next chip so as of right now we dont know what exactly will be in the Ps3, just that its being developed with nVidia.
Now that I think about it, the article seems questionable. 700+ people over many years have been developing this NVIDIA GPU alongside the PS3, and I believe it's being developed from the ground up just like the CELL architecture was. I don't think they're going to mess around and mesh 2 different types of GPUs together for the PS3.

Here's the link to the article, not that it matters since I posted it in it's entirety:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mmedia/display/20041228125957.html

I should make mention though that when XBitlabs says something, I generally take it to be the truth.

While we're on the subject, here is an older article of theirs that gives some of the capabilities of current gen XDR in graphics applications, and how it compares to GDDR 3, and in the future, GDDR 4.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/memory/display/20040718141458.html

[Brandon]

NVIDIA is currently developing graphics processors code-named NV47 and NV50. The latter was recently rumoured to be cancelled, though.
I'm still a little confused.

[The_One]

the information is false, its not a "NV40/NV50" hybrid, its based off next gen tech which is "NV50", but the NV50 was cancelled. And nVidia has yet to announce their next chip so as of right now we dont know what exactly will be in the Ps3, just that its being developed with nVidia. That's what I was thinking when I read that article... Wasn't the next-gen GPU from nVidia suppose to be NV60 since NV50 was cancelled?
Current GDDR3 that is used for high-end graphics cards nowadays may be clocked at up to 2.00GHz, providing bandwidth of 64GB/s for an application with 256-bit memory bus. The next incarnation of GDDR memory will be GDDR4 that is likely to be out next year and is expected to allow memory frequencies of up to 2.80GHz and effective bandwidth of about 89GB/s. Hmm, that seems quite interesting. I'd like to see how GDDR4 vs XDR 6.4Ghz plays out. The bandwidth themselves are quite close, with 89GBp/s vs 102.4GBp/s (Dual Channel).
However, I guess only the 3.2Ghz XDR will be available for PS3, so we're stuck with 51.2GBp/s for our next-gen console.

[megadrive]

the thing is, there is nothing to indicate that NV50 was actually cancelled. the cancellation was only a rumor by hit-and-miss website theinquirer.net. what is much more reasonable, is Nvidia making some adjustments to its roadmap. anyway, Nvidia has said several times that their GPU for PS3 is based on their next-generation architecture. not NV40.

[amod20002004]

And what about the dual GPU? Don’t you think that this might force Sony to debut ps3 with high price.

[Domination]

From the little we read from nVidia, they made it clear that the next generation GPU (both for PS3 and PC), will be much, much more then just a vamped up NV40. And I'm sure Sony wouldn't settle for less, considering all the investment on the PS3. Also according to the press release, they intend for the GPU to have a much higher interaction with the CPU, abandoning the current

CPU --> GPU --> DISPLAY

for a

CPU <--> GPU --> DISPLAY

This is exactly what I was thinking as well, but I was assuming TWO GPUs would play this roll. That may not be the case, though, since it may affect cost. Anyway, from what has been proven, Sony builds some of the best CPUs around -- at least as far as consoles go. :wink: But not even a good CPU is enough to handle a variety of different, difficult tasks by itself. So I assume that, with nVidia's sources in this field, they would probably want both processors to assist each other back and forth.

[xbdestroya]

Current GDDR3 that is used for high-end graphics cards nowadays may be clocked at up to 2.00GHz, providing bandwidth of 64GB/s for an application with 256-bit memory bus. The next incarnation of GDDR memory will be GDDR4 that is likely to be out next year and is expected to allow memory frequencies of up to 2.80GHz and effective bandwidth of about 89GB/s. Hmm, that seems quite interesting. I'd like to see how GDDR4 vs XDR 6.4Ghz plays out. The bandwidth themselves are quite close, with 89GBp/s vs 102.4GBp/s (Dual Channel).
However, I guess only the 3.2Ghz XDR will be available for PS3, so we're stuck with 51.2GBp/s for our next-gen console.

It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out as far as XDR GDDR4 down the line. Remember how DDR2 rose to handily beat RDRAM in the end. But I think XDR is a little more 'future-proof' than that. But as far as XDR vs the GDDR3 going into the XBox-2 graphics, I think as far as the consoles go, Sony's gone with the winner.

Could be costing a good bit more than the GDDR3 though; who knows? Certainly that their partners are fabbign the stuff has to help out though.

[SSnake]

In recent news it's said that the PS3 GPU will be NV40 NV50 hybrid. Now NV40 is current tech with obviously some NV50 tech thrown into it. How can that compete with the R520 thats supposedly being implemented into the next xbox.???

[Theo]

In recent news it's said that the PS3 GPU will be NV40 NV50 hybrid. Now NV40 is current tech with obviously some NV50 tech thrown into it. How can that compete with the R520 thats supposedly being implemented into the next xbox.???

Years of developing, loads of dollars only to reach to a "upgraded version of current technology"...nah, I don't buy it.

[Rob78]

In recent news it's said that the PS3 GPU will be NV40 NV50 hybrid. Now NV40 is current tech with obviously some NV50 tech thrown into it. How can that compete with the R520 thats supposedly being implemented into the next xbox.???

Years of developing, loads of dollars only to reach to a "upgraded version of current technology"...nah, I don't buy it. It just shows, my theories are right, the XBox 2 will not only sell more units, and win the console war, but it's games will look better as well. :D :P

[Bo76334]

noooooooooooooooooooooo please tell me your kidding about the xbox2 looking better...... :(

[Theo]

In recent news it's said that the PS3 GPU will be NV40 NV50 hybrid. Now NV40 is current tech with obviously some NV50 tech thrown into it. How can that compete with the R520 thats supposedly being implemented into the next xbox.???

Years of developing, loads of dollars only to reach to a "upgraded version of current technology"...nah, I don't buy it. It just shows, my theories are right, the XBox 2 will not only sell more units, and win the console war, but it's games will look better as well. :D :P


You can't be serious! What SSnake wrote is only rumours NOT facts. As things seem to shape it is very likely that Ps3 will be more powerful than Xbox 2, you can read it everywhere. More powerful or not, Xbox 2 will never sell more units than ps3.

[amod20002004]

In recent news it's said that the PS3 GPU will be NV40 NV50 hybrid. Now NV40 is current tech with obviously some NV50 tech thrown into it. How can that compete with the R520 thats supposedly being implemented into the next xbox.???

Years of developing, loads of dollars only to reach to a "upgraded version of current technology"...nah, I don't buy it. It just shows, my theories are right, the XBox 2 will not only sell more units, and win the console war, but it's games will look better as well. :D :P


You can't be serious! What SSnake wrote is only rumours NOT facts. As things seem to shape it is very likely that Ps3 will be more powerful than Xbox 2, you can read it everywhere. More powerful or not, Xbox 2 will never sell more units than ps3.
Theo is right. Ps3 is going to reach at 1024G.F performance while I have never heard anything similar about xbox2.

[pc999]

Actually you never heard something from XB2, only their partners and some are at least as good, others are the same.

[SSnake]

I hope its not another 'more powerful CPU-less powerful GPU' scenario as far as PS3 is concerned. :( :o

[julps31]

Sony is very smart in there marketing decisions. Especially when you see what there doing for the next-gen PS. I mean there spending billions of dollars to make the PS3 a powerhouse. The Cell, XDR-ram, Open GL support, Collada, and Blu-ray. Now with all that money spent to make the PS3 the powerhouse it should be Its hard for me to beleive that Sony would allow Nvidias GPU to be the PS3's bottleneck because they used current technology with all the next generation technolgy going into the PS3. Especially when Sony probably was very pivotal in allowing Nvidia to make the PS3's GPU. The probably kept there eye on the technolgy to make sure it wont be the PS3s short coming. Thats just my two cents. 8)

[The_One]

In recent news it's said that the PS3 GPU will be NV40 NV50 hybrid. Now NV40 is current tech with obviously some NV50 tech thrown into it. How can that compete with the R520 thats supposedly being implemented into the next xbox.???

Years of developing, loads of dollars only to reach to a "upgraded version of current technology"...nah, I don't buy it. It just shows, my theories are right, the XBox 2 will not only sell more units, and win the console war, but it's games will look better as well. :D :P Look better? *cough* What crack are you on *cough*?
Also, the Xenon will not have the R520 in it. It'll only get the R500 at best. Also, that article is full of BS, NV47 and some NV50? NV50 was cancelled (according to numerous rumours), so if the rumours were correct, then there's no way the PS3 will even get NV50, it'll be getting the next gen NV60. However, don't celebrate just yet Rob. How do you know that the Xenon won't get a R420 with some R500 sprinkled on it? You don't, and neither does anyone here know.

There's no solid proof on either side, so your theory hasn't proved jack just yet.

[Brandon]

It just shows, my theories are right, the XBox 2 will not only sell more units, and win the console war, but it's games will look better as well.
There's no "official" information for either of them. And your theories? That's all they are, just "theories." None of what you just said can be predicted at this point.

And as for new hardware, the Xenon will be using a modified [specifically for gaming] version of the Dual Apple G5, and the PS3 is being built from the ground up [and there is simply no way to tell what kind of power it will have until further info is released].

[xbdestroya]

In recent news it's said that the PS3 GPU will be NV40 NV50 hybrid. Now NV40 is current tech with obviously some NV50 tech thrown into it. How can that compete with the R520 thats supposedly being implemented into the next xbox.???

Years of developing, loads of dollars only to reach to a "upgraded version of current technology"...nah, I don't buy it. It just shows, my theories are right, the XBox 2 will not only sell more units, and win the console war, but it's games will look better as well. :D :P Look better? *cough* What crack are you on *cough*?
Also, the Xenon will not have the R520 in it. It'll only get the R500 at best. Also, that article is full of BS, NV47 and some NV50? NV50 was cancelled (according to numerous rumours), so if the rumours were correct, then there's no way the PS3 will even get NV50, it'll be getting the next gen NV60. However, don't celebrate just yet Rob. How do you know that the Xenon won't get a R420 with some R500 sprinkled on it? You don't, and neither does anyone here know.

There's no solid proof on either side, so your theory hasn't proved jack just yet.

I hate to go against you here The_One, but everyone knows that the XBox 2 is going to have a R520 derivative. ATI has said so themselves. And as far as the XBitLabs 'rumor' goes, how is that rumor in any way trumped by the other rumors preceding it that the NV50 was cancelled? Here's the deal - it's all rumors. It just depends on who the source is and what specifically is being discussed. A lot of people have come out since the NV50 cancelation to say that it originiated from the fatc that IBM wouldn;t be fabbign it - so it was cancelled there - but it was on track to be fabbed in one of the Taiwanes fabs. Who knows what's true and what's not; not me.

But I will say this - I strongly believe that PS3 will be able to stick it graphically to XBox 2. Even if it's derived from current tech, even if it's linked to the supposedly canceled NV50, does that mean it's not going to rock? Does that mean it won't tap the XDR, the specialized chipset, and the Cell processor? Something else is goign on here. I've read in several articles the last couple of days that ATI and NVidia are developing fundamentaly different approaches to the future of graphics- I think we're going to see the first part of that war play out in the console battle.

Let's just hope NVidia has a plan worthy of the PS, and Sony has been keeping them to task. :wink:

[The_One]

I hate to go against you here The_One, but everyone knows that the XBox 2 is going to have a R520 derivative. ATI has said so themselves. Shucks :(. Looks like I haven't been up-to-date on my IT news :P.

[xbdestroya]

I hate to go against you here The_One, but everyone knows that the XBox 2 is going to have a R520 derivative. ATI has said so themselves. Shucks :(. Looks like I haven't been up-to-date on my IT news :P.

Ha ha :wink: I just hope that when the M$ people give out the XBox 2 goods next week (!!!!!) that Sony and/or NVidia get itchy and decide to release some PS3 specs as well!

We get soem Cell info in Feb, but the GPU is proving more elusive

[Z]

I concider nVidia and ATI to be relatively the same. I am not convinced that they will be the determen factor in a graphical showdown. What I do look up to are all the other tech specs.
By they way, nVidia has said that they are working on PS3's GPU for about two years now, and that it is a whole new GPU structure not related in any way to PC's and windows. Plus, they currently have 50 ingineers on it, just to implement it to PS3. all this news tells me it wount be the same story as it is with Xbox, which is concidered by many to be a PC (although that has more to do with programming than graphics, yet still).
Sony wouldn't have allowed ANYONE to risk their reputation by hurting PS3 in anyway.

[Grandia]

That same article mentions that the PS3s GPU won't have anything to do with OpenGL. Isn't that a stupid move?

[xbdestroya]

Well since we're on it, here's the article that says the NV4+ series might still be 'on'.

NVIDIA’s NV48 to be Made at TSMC, Says Article
NVIDIA's NV48 May Still Be in Plans, Contrary to Reports

by Anton Shilov
12/20/2004 | 03:13 AM

NVIDIA’s graphics processor code-named NV48 may still be in plans, contrary to earlier reports about its cancellation, says an article at DigiTimes web-site. The chip would be made at TSMC, according to the report, not at IBM, as it was initially reported.

The graphics processor that is believed to be internally called NV48 will be made in mass quantities in the second quarter of 2005 at Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company. The chip will use relatively low-cost 0.11 micron fabrication process, not IBM’s 0.13 micron manufacturing technology, according to the article.

NVIDIA’s NV48 chip was originally supposed to be a “refresh” for the company’s GeForce 6800 Ultra graphics processor that was expected to feature a bit higher frequencies compared to the original parts. Earlier this month rumours about cancellation of NV48 and NV50 products emerged, however, NVIDIA Corp. did not deny the information. NVIDIA reportedly also preps to unveil the company’s code-named NV47 visual processing unit that presumably contains 24 pixel pipelines in future.

TSMC’s 0.11 micron process technology is similar to the company’s 0.13 micron technology and is mainly intended to cut down manufacturing costs, rather than to allow higher clock-speeds. In case NVIDIA has enough allocation for 0.11 micron nodes at TSMC, the company may enjoy higher gross-margins on the NV48 products compared to what it might get if the NV48 was made at IBM.

ATI Technologies, NVIDIA’s main rival, recently introduced RADEON X800 XL and RADEON X800 chips made using 0.11 micron targeting performance-mainstream market.

NVIDIA Corp.’s representatives did not comment on the news-story.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20041220031126.html

[xbdestroya]

More importanlty, here's the article I was talkignabout a little bit ago discussingthe divergence in ATI and NVidia's future tech architectures:

ATI and NVIDIA Proclaim Different Graphics Processors Architecture Goals
ATI Says Unified Rendering Engine – the Way to Go, NVIDIA Disagrees

by Anton Shilov
12/23/2004 | 07:55 AM

While particular approaches in graphics processing units design have been pretty different for leading computer visual companies ATI Technologies and NVIDIA Corp., in future the architecture of GPUs from the firms may be fundamentally different, as executives from both companies proclaim different approaches for chip internal architectures.

NVIDIA Disagrees with ATI Technologies

ATI Technologies’ developer relations manager Richard Huddy said last month during a conference in London, UK, that the company’s future visual processing units will feature unified pixel and shader processing. While he declined to elaborate on the timeframes for such chips, he said unified pixel and vertex data processing is a required capability for Windows Graphics Foundation 2.0 that comes out together with Microsoft’s next-generation operating system called Windows Longhorn. On of the benefits the unified approach brings is ability to dynamically allocate chip resources depending on the demand for pixel and vertex processing, Mr. Huddy said. Another one is simplified software development.

NVIDIA Corp.’s chief architect David Kirk called the unified graphics engines as an implementation detail, not a feature, but admitted the unified architecture would be nice for programmers, who would have one instruction set for vertex and pixel shaders.

“It’s not clear to me that an architecture for a good, efficient, and fast vertex shader is the same as the architecture for a good and fast pixel shader. A pixel shader would need far, far more texture math performance and read bandwidth than an optimized vertex shader. So, if you used that pixel shader to do vertex shading, most of the hardware would be idle, most of the time. Which is better – a lean and mean optimized vertex shader and a lean and mean optimized pixel shader or two less-efficient hybrid shaders? There is an old saying: ‘Jack of all trades, master of none’,” Mr. Kirk said in an interview with ExtremeTech web-site.

ATI: Bridging Today and Tomorrow

Not much is known about the architecture and capabilities of the code-named R520 product scheduled for release in Q2 2005 that was initially referred as the R500. What is clear now is that the new graphics chip will sport Shader Model 3.0 – pixel shaders 3.0 and vertex shaders 3.0 – bringing additional programming capabilities to ATI’s future graphics processors as well as some other innovations.

ATI’s R5xx architecture will not resemble that of the previous generation products and NVIDIA’s GeForce 6 architecture known as NV4x, particularly ATI will implement efficient flow-control, a crucial feature for pixel shaders 3.0, that will not bring speed penalty it does on existing SM3.0 hardware, according to sources. The future of the graphics hardware lies in higher number of ALUs ops per texture ops, unified pixel and vertex shaders as well as some other requirements of Microsoft Windows Longhorn operating system, such as virtualisation and context switches. While ATI agrees on the long-term goals for its roadmap, it does not name feature-set of actual products and says all the architectural changes will be implemented gradually, not at once.

Some sources claim that the R500 is a code-name of ATI’s graphics processor that will be submitted for Microsoft’s next Xbox console. The shader core of the R500 was reported to have 48 Arithmetic Logic Units (ALUs) that can execute 64 simultaneous threads on groups of 64 vertices or pixels. ALUs are automatically and dynamically assigned to either pixel or vertex processing depending on load. The ALUs can each perform one vector and one scalar operation per clock cycle, for a total of 96 shader operations per clock cycle. Texture loads can be done in parallel to ALU operations. At peak performance, the GPU can issue 48 billion shader operations per second, it was said.

The R520 is also expected to feature advanced memory interface, presumably supporting GDDR4 memory.

NVIDIA: Plans Unclear

While NVIDIA remains extremely tight-lipped over its future products, it is known that the company is readying its code-named NV47 visual processing unit, a massively revamped GeForce 6 architecture with 24 pixel pipelines. The NV47 is expected to be released sometime in Spring, 2005, but it is unknown whether NVIDIA is ahead, or behind ATI’s R520 product. NVIDIA also reportedly plans to release a chip called NV48 in Q2 2005.

The status of NVIDIA’s future architecture code-named NV50 is also uncertain: some reported recently that the chip had been cancelled, but officials decline to confirm or deny the information.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20041223075525.html



I guess basically what it really comes down to, is a lot of details about R520 are known now, or thought to be known, and NVidia is presently in super-stealth mode. Let's hope it's for the better! 8)

[GodMachine_Iridius_Dio]

Just had to point this out....

One was not wrong, Xbox 2/Next/Xenon is supposed to incorporate the R500, not the R520.... that might sound bad, but then the R500 rips the head off the R520 anyway. The two are not related. One is an extremely reworked R3XX generation core (R520) the other is based on the next gen core, the R4XX series.

In case that just flew over everyones' heads. The R500 is more capable than the R520. The R500 is new technology, the R520 is largely based on out-dated architecture.

Later

Iridius Dio

[amod20002004]

Oh yes, I think we just have to wait one more month to get actual information about xbox2 hardware.

[Z]

Six days if we are lucky! (Feb5th CES note speech)

[xbdestroya]

Just had to point this out....

One was not wrong, Xbox 2/Next/Xenon is supposed to incorporate the R500, not the R520.... that might sound bad, but then the R500 rips the head off the R520 anyway. The two are not related. One is an extremely reworked R3XX generation core (R520) the other is based on the next gen core, the R4XX series.

In case that just flew over everyones' heads. The R500 is more capable than the R520. The R500 is new technology, the R520 is largely based on out-dated architecture.

Later

Iridius Dio

Well, I don't know that we definitively know R520 just to be a tweaked R3xx core, though you're right that there is a lot of confusion revolving around both those cores. I'm certainly guilty there. I've heard, with authority, both that the R520 'Fudo' chip will be the one in the XBox 2, and that the R500 chip is going to be the one in the NextBox. I've also heard that R520 (as you said) is a super-refresh of R3xx, but then I've heard counterarguments that it's PS3.0 support implies a new architecture.

Certainly anyone that feels they have anything definitive post the link, because I've been trying to figure this out before the conference in Jan. :wink:

Anyway, most of what I've seen seems to indicate that the R500 and R520 are pretty closely related; if someone has a definitive breakdown of the specs of each core, hey I'm happy to follow a link! :D

Sorry for earlier The_One, maybe you're not the only one as caught up on IT news as they could be! :wink:

[senas8]

So When is Playstaion 9 coming out?...anyone remember that commercial in late 99' ??? If no one remembers....It shows a guy taking a pill and he is in the game....at the end of the commercial it said Playstation 9..hehehe. What a way to Play games...taking Drugs. Right ON.

[Xtreme Autoz]

Hello, I thought I would post this here since you are all talking about graphics cards, anyway I got a new pc for christmas with a bundle of games, the specs and games are below. Problem is that the games I got with the pc aren't running properly, in Far Cry when I get outside the ground is missing and so is the water and basically it looks like a PSone game :cry: . In Toca Race Driver 2 when I start driving polygons start to go missing and everything goes all crazy. SC: Pandora Tomorrow, when I click on single player it just wont start and the same with Dues Ex: Invisible war.

I'm getting a new graphics card today and wondering what one I should go for, one that will run all games smoothly. I saw an ATI 9800SE card for £92, I dont know if that is good enough. I need your help and I need someone to reply quickly. Thanx.

Specs:
512 mb ram.
2.9Ghz Intel Pentium 4 proc.
160 GB Hard Drive
Video Intel Media Accelerato 900 Graphics Card.

Games:
Far Cry
SC: Pandora Tomorrow
Toca Race Driver 2
POP: Sands of Time
Hitman Contracts
Dues Ex Invisible War

[kevindenoyette]

It's pretty obvious your graphics card is a problem. get the 9800, you'll be fine.

[Xtreme Autoz]

Well should I get the 9800SE, since it is quite cheap and is it not better than the 9200. Is there any difference between them and is there anything in paticular featyres I should look out for? Thanx for replying. :D

[Rob78]

Well should I get the 9800SE, since it is quite cheap and is it not better than the 9200. Is there any difference between them and is there anything in paticular featyres I should look out for? Thanx for replying. :D Buy the 9800SE, it is way better than the 9200, but if you want to stay a generation behind in graphics to save a few bucks(They are still great GPUs), than go with either the ATi RADEON 9600(128MB) or a 9700 Pro(128MB). If you have $250 to spend, than you should buy the X600 PRO which is 256MB.

Here are links to places you can buy them:

- RADEON 9600 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4500&CatId=880)

- RADEON 9700 (http://www.shopping.com/xPO-ATI_RADEON_9700_PRO)

- RADEON X600 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1173963&CatId=1560)(I recommentd this one)

[Omega Blue]

Just had to point this out....

One was not wrong, Xbox 2/Next/Xenon is supposed to incorporate the R500, not the R520.... that might sound bad, but then the R500 rips the head off the R520 anyway. The two are not related. One is an extremely reworked R3XX generation core (R520) the other is based on the next gen core, the R4XX series.

In case that just flew over everyones' heads. The R500 is more capable than the R520. The R500 is new technology, the R520 is largely based on out-dated architecture.

Later

Iridius Dio
Yeah either your SunDevil or coping his "Iridius Dio" closing sentence.

[Z]

Does it have a meaning? My Latin isn't that good- if it is Latin.

[amod20002004]

I also think that he is sundevil. May be? :?

[Rob78]

Are you refering to GodMachine_Iridius_Dio? Cause if you are, you're correct! stanDARSH said that SunDevil always put this "Iridius Dio" as the end of every post, that's pretty suspicious if you ask me... :?

[amod20002004]

And also he has given answer of my post like in same tone of sundevil. I know sundevil’s way of answering to any comment. I think he is sundevil. :?

[stanDarsh]

Are you refering to GodMachine_Iridius_Dio? Cause if you are, you're correct! stanDARSH said that SunDevil always put this "Iridius Dio" as the end of every post, that's pretty suspicious if you ask me... :?

Actually it was Omega Blue who said that. The only post I made mention to this was in the "vote now" thread.

Anyway we're going off topic here.

[Xtreme Autoz]

To Rob78.

Hi, I got a card. The card I got was an ABIT ATI Radeon V Guru Series RX600 Pro-Guru 256MB DDR PCI Express. It was the best card the guy could offer me and he knocked the price down from £130 to £80 plus free installation. So I think I got a good deal.

Thanx for replying.

[Danji Ikari]

*getting back on subject* Of course! *has read the past 3 pages* I should've realised that the memory speeds alone could cause a rather substantial advantage for the PS3. I think, being the most cost efficient alternative, that MS would much rather want to pay for a R520 (cheaper, older architecture) and would thusly like to have it in the Xbox Next more than an R500 even if the R500 gave them much larger graphical abilities.

Remember what they did last time? Old parts, new package. They are doing it again only on a larger scale. Microsoft is going to lose a lot of fanboys when they aren't the technologically superior of the two consoles..I wonder if they are going to make it past this console..

I'm definitely going to show some videos on my PSP to people of the PS3 games from E3.

[5ysT3m cR45h3r]

*getting back on subject* Of course! *has read the past 3 pages* I should've realised that the memory speeds alone could cause a rather substantial advantage for the PS3. I think, being the most cost efficient alternative, that MS would much rather want to pay for a R520 (cheaper, older architecture) and would thusly like to have it in the Xbox Next more than an R500 even if the R500 gave them much larger graphical abilities.

Remember what they did last time? Old parts, new package. They are doing it again only on a larger scale. Microsoft is going to lose a lot of fanboys when they aren't the technologically superior of the two consoles..I wonder if they are going to make it past this console..

I'm definitely going to show some videos on my PSP to people of the PS3 games from E3.

Excellent point Danji. This would definately bring Microsoft down up against PS3.

[oxygenuk]

*getting back on subject* Of course! *has read the past 3 pages* I should've realised that the memory speeds alone could cause a rather substantial advantage for the PS3. I think, being the most cost efficient alternative, that MS would much rather want to pay for a R520 (cheaper, older architecture) and would thusly like to have it in the Xbox Next more than an R500 even if the R500 gave them much larger graphical abilities.

Remember what they did last time? Old parts, new package. They are doing it again only on a larger scale. Microsoft is going to lose a lot of fanboys when they aren't the technologically superior of the two consoles..I wonder if they are going to make it past this console..

I'm definitely going to show some videos on my PSP to people of the PS3 games from E3.

ive always said, its more unlikely thatll we'll see a 3rd xbox than it is more likely :twisted:, then if this apple console is true itll sony vs apple, and not only in the walkman battle :D, but in the console wars

[Omega Blue]

*getting back on subject* Of course! *has read the past 3 pages* I should've realised that the memory speeds alone could cause a rather substantial advantage for the PS3. I think, being the most cost efficient alternative, that MS would much rather want to pay for a R520 (cheaper, older architecture) and would thusly like to have it in the Xbox Next more than an R500 even if the R500 gave them much larger graphical abilities.

Remember what they did last time? Old parts, new package. They are doing it again only on a larger scale. Microsoft is going to lose a lot of fanboys when they aren't the technologically superior of the two consoles..I wonder if they are going to make it past this console..

I'm definitely going to show some videos on my PSP to people of the PS3 games from E3.

Danji I Will Respect You Forever.

BTW it will be funny when the XBoxs fans find out their XBox 2 isn't the technologically superior console in the upcoming generation.

[amod20002004]

Actually yes, and no. Guys from thenextbox.com are saying that ‘xbox2 will have superior software than ps3. Powerful hardware is not going to play important role in next generation. MS has better software than Sony therefore xbox2 is going to be superior than ps3.’ and as usual I am absolutely disagreed with this way of thinking. I think Sony has strong software support than MS. That's it.

[The_One]

Actually yes, and no. Guys from thenextbox.com are saying that ‘xbox2 will have superior software than ps3. Powerful hardware is not going to play important role in next generation. MS has better software than Sony therefore xbox2 is going to be superior than ps3.’ and as usual I am absolutely disagreed with this way of thinking. I think Sony has strong software support than MS. That's it. Well, it doesn't matter what the guy thinks, because that's all it is -- his "thoughts". He has no solid proof that the software support for the Xenon will be better than the PS3.

[Ps3Expector]

The PS3 will have a NV40, how will this compare to the ati chip in xbox2?

[Domination]

The PS3 will have a NV40, how will this compare to the ati chip in xbox2?

Who told you that lie? :?

[Omega Blue]

The PS3 will have a NV40, how will this compare to the ati chip in xbox2?

your a dumbass.

[Ps3Expector]

The PS3 will have a NV40, how will this compare to the ati chip in xbox2?

Who told you that lie? :?


Playstation graphics chip a Janus Horribilis
Peripherals | Reads from WWW
Mon 03 Jan 2005

The Inquirer -- The graphic chip in the PlayStation 3 will be a hybrid NV40-50, according to reports at PC Watch and Xbit Labs.

While the bulk of the core will use NV40 (that's GeForce 6-series) architecture, techniques developed for the next-generation chip will also be utilised. Interestingly, we have recently been hearing that NV50 is cancelled, but what (if any) relationship this has to its utilisation in the PS3 we don't know.

The reports suggest that the GPU will be made at Sony's own fab, which is well known for having a 65 nanometre process. This kind of shrink will allow the chip to run far cooler than the NV40 does today - we don't expect the PS3 to have a dual slot graphics cooler.

For the complete coverage, please select Go to Source


So Basically, PS3 will have an outdated vidchip by the time it is released in NA...

[xbdestroya]

*getting back on subject* Of course! *has read the past 3 pages* I should've realised that the memory speeds alone could cause a rather substantial advantage for the PS3. I think, being the most cost efficient alternative, that MS would much rather want to pay for a R520 (cheaper, older architecture) and would thusly like to have it in the Xbox Next more than an R500 even if the R500 gave them much larger graphical abilities.

Remember what they did last time? Old parts, new package. They are doing it again only on a larger scale. Microsoft is going to lose a lot of fanboys when they aren't the technologically superior of the two consoles..I wonder if they are going to make it past this console..

I'm definitely going to show some videos on my PSP to people of the PS3 games from E3.'


You know, I don't know though. In the first year, a R500 vs an R520 might be a significant price difference (they are using a licensing deal though, so who knows.) But even assuming the traditional GPU/VPU pricing structure, M$ might find it worth taking the hit to pay out that much more for the R500 knowing what PS3 has coming down the line. Plus, though R500, in a normal setting, would cost a good deal more than R520 in the first year, it'll only cost a fair deal more in the second year, and in years three through five, it won't cost much more at all.

All I'm saying, is if I were the crew over at XBox HQ, I'd be trying hard to figure out a way to put the R500 in there rather than the R520. :wink:

[xbdestroya]

The PS3 will have a NV40, how will this compare to the ati chip in xbox2?

Who told you that lie? :?


Playstation graphics chip a Janus Horribilis
Peripherals | Reads from WWW
Mon 03 Jan 2005

The Inquirer -- The graphic chip in the PlayStation 3 will be a hybrid NV40-50, according to reports at PC Watch and Xbit Labs.

While the bulk of the core will use NV40 (that's GeForce 6-series) architecture, techniques developed for the next-generation chip will also be utilised. Interestingly, we have recently been hearing that NV50 is cancelled, but what (if any) relationship this has to its utilisation in the PS3 we don't know.

The reports suggest that the GPU will be made at Sony's own fab, which is well known for having a 65 nanometre process. This kind of shrink will allow the chip to run far cooler than the NV40 does today - we don't expect the PS3 to have a dual slot graphics cooler.

For the complete coverage, please select Go to Source


So Basically, PS3 will have an outdated vidchip by the time it is released in NA...

You can read more about this if you want by going back a couple of pages in this same thread.

I have a concern that the PS3 GPU won't be as innovative as we all might have initially hoped, but I am 99% confident that the scenario you're painting is not the correct one. I'm not surprised it'll have some NV40 aspects, but nobody knows anything about NV50, and even less so as to how it relates to PS3, and even less so about how the GPU will interact with the Cell chip (remember Cell itself is capable of a fair deal of graphics work).

So if Sony stuck to their guns on this, and made NVidia work for it, I'm sure that the PS3 chip will give the XBox 2 a fight for it's life.

[martel]

I sincerely doubt that the PS3 GPU will be a variant of the NV40 or any other PC based GPU. The architecture of the PS2 was already worlds apart from that of a PC, unlike the nVidia equiped X-Box with its PC parts bin hardware, with Sony's continuing trend toward custom processors and the added complexity of Cell I doubt that something like an NV40 would be compatible, some of the tech will be carried over but I think that's where the similarities will end. It's all guesses and theorys at this stage of course.

I'd be rather dubious of any reports coming out about the nVidia GPU. They kept their involvement in PS3 quiet for a long time, nobody seemed to have a clear idea what was going on. Then there is a statement confirming their involvement and suddenly "sources" start coming out of the woodwork. Rumour merchants if you ask me...

[xbdestroya]

I sincerely doubt that the PS3 GPU will be a variant of the NV40 or any other PC based GPU. The architecture of the PS2 was already worlds apart from that of a PC, unlike the nVidia equiped X-Box with its PC parts bin hardware, with Sony's continuing trend toward custom processors and the added complexity of Cell I doubt that something like an NV40 would be compatible, some of the tech will be carried over but I think that's where the similarities will end. It's all guesses and theorys at this stage of course.

I'd be rather dubious of any reports coming out about the nVidia GPU. They kept their involvement in PS3 quiet for a long time, nobody seemed to have a clear idea what was going on. Then there is a statement confirming their involvement and suddenly "sources" start coming out of the woodwork. Rumour merchants if you ask me...


You're free to view it how you will. I trust the sources I trust; we all must make those decisions for ourselves. But whatever the case, I don't think anyone (save PS3Expector) is saying that the actual CHIP will be an NV40, or anything directly PC. And whether you believe those sites or not, that's not what they're saying either.

[Domination]

The PS3 will have a NV40, how will this compare to the ati chip in xbox2?

Who told you that lie? :?


Playstation graphics chip a Janus Horribilis
Peripherals | Reads from WWW
Mon 03 Jan 2005

The Inquirer -- The graphic chip in the PlayStation 3 will be a hybrid NV40-50, according to reports at PC Watch and Xbit Labs.

While the bulk of the core will use NV40 (that's GeForce 6-series) architecture, techniques developed for the next-generation chip will also be utilised. Interestingly, we have recently been hearing that NV50 is cancelled, but what (if any) relationship this has to its utilisation in the PS3 we don't know.

The reports suggest that the GPU will be made at Sony's own fab, which is well known for having a 65 nanometre process. This kind of shrink will allow the chip to run far cooler than the NV40 does today - we don't expect the PS3 to have a dual slot graphics cooler.

For the complete coverage, please select Go to Source


So Basically, PS3 will have an outdated vidchip by the time it is released in NA...

I knew you were going to bring this up. This is old news. If not for my hands being full at the time, I probably would have responded a little earlier. But first, let me bold out a few things first:

The Inquirer -- The graphic chip in the PlayStation 3 will be a hybrid NV40-50, according to reports at PC Watch and Xbit Labs.

While the bulk of the core will use NV40 (that's GeForce 6-series) architecture, techniques developed for the next-generation chip will also be utilised. Interestingly, we have recently been hearing that NV50 is cancelled, but what (if any) relationship this has to its utilisation in the PS3 we don't know.

The reports suggest that the GPU will be made at Sony's own fab, which is well known for having a 65 nanometre process. This kind of shrink will allow the chip to run far cooler than the NV40 does today - we don't expect the PS3 to have a dual slot graphics cooler.

Those are just the quotes you jotted down, which is already telling you that the PS3's GPU processor differs a lot from the NV40. NOW, take a look at this quote from nVidia:


Speaking at a Silicon Valley press conference, nVidia president Jen-Hsun Huang confirmed that the company has already been working on the chip for an extended time and suggested that it would be in the region of 50 times more powerful than the PS2's graphics chip.


This was backed up by nVidia's executive vice president of marketing Dan Vivoli in comments made to the San Jose Mercury. "This chip is going to be far more powerful than anything we've done before," he said, before reinforcing that work has been in progress for around 18 months.

nVidia have years of experience producing advanced graphics chips for PC gaming. While the PS3 chip will incorporate many elements of nVidia's next-generation PC graphics technology, it is being designed as a standalone unit and is not based on existing PC architecture.

nVidia's previously developed the GPU (graphical processing unit) for Microsoft's Xbox. Despite rivals ATI securing the contract to develop the GPUs for Xbox 2 and Nintendo's next-gen console (catch up here) the PS3 contract could be hugely lucrative for nVidia as their technology will also be used in Sony's consumer electronics devices like DVD players and digital TVs.

Ok, in that very first quote in the second report, the CEO states that this GPU they are working on with Sony is a lot more advance than anything they've done before. If the NV50, the next available GPU processor for next-gen, was canceled, where would that put THIS GPU? http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/idea.gif That's right. Which means it is not an NV40 http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/crudesmoke.gif

[Illmatic]

Not sure if it's been posted before.

GPU maker nVidia has scored two big deals in as many months. The first was its long-awaited cross-licensing deal with Intel to bring nVidia chipsets over to the Pentium 4 side of the market. Today comes news that nVidia has inked a royalty-based deal with Sony to provide graphics technology for the next-generation PlayStation 3 (PS3). Given Sony's dominant market position in the console gaming world, this is a big design win for nVidia, and it counterbalances the two deals archrival ATI has in place to power the next-generation Xbox and Nintendo console platforms.
These deals have a high splash factor, and you don't have to look any further than nVidia's stock price today to see the immediate effect. But once the confetti is swept up and the champagne buzz wears off, nVidia will have to get down to the business of actually delivering this technology to Sony. At the same time, the company must maintain focus on its desktop and mobile GPUs, which still represent the core of its business. Juggling this many bowling balls has proved troublesome for nVidia in the past. Will those hard-learned lessons allow nVidia to execute this time around more smoothly? It's a little early to start reading tea leaves, but here are several things to consider about this deal and what it means for nVidia in the coming year.

Scalability

This morning's press release indicated that Sony and nVidia "…are jointly developing a custom graphics processing unit (GPU) incorporating NVIDIA's next-generation GeForce and SCEI's system solutions for next-generation computer entertainment systems featuring the Cell processor." By "next-generation GeForce," this implies something based on the NV50 architecture, which to date we've heard little about, even in the rumor mills. Extrapolating a bit, one common theme we've been hearing is that the distinction between vertex and pixel shader units may effectively go away in next-generation GPUs such as the NV50 and ATI's R500. ADVERTISEMENT
One of NV40's most noteworthy features is its gargantuan 222 million transistors, which one nVidia official proudly touted as "the biggest consumer ASIC ever built." Scaled down versions of this architecture using 12, 8, and 4 pipes have already come to market, but we don't expect transistor counts to decrease in the NV50. On the contrary, if nVidia continues with its "wider is better" design approach—the same one used by ATI—we could see 20- or 24-pixel pipelines in NV50. And depending on how radically new the architecture is, that number could climb to 32 if vertex and pixel shader units are by and large integrated. Given the thermal envelope of an NV50-based architecture, along with Sony's Cell processor, this duo of chips will likely require a much beefier cooling system in the PS3.

The question is: How much NV50 goodness will Sony integrate into the PS3? Because it's Sony's stage, and for this deal nVidia is an actor on it, nVidia has been very quiet beyond reiterating the contents of today's press release. We were able to glean, however, that this appears more to be a technology licensing agreement, wherein nVidia will help on the engineering side, but Sony will handle all the manufacturing. That's different from nVidia's early Xbox deal, where they actually supplied the chips.

Resource Allocation

When nVidia scored its first console deal with the first Xbox, the company went from being a successful GPU maker to tech rock star almost overnight. That $200 million deal brought attention and accolades to the GPU maker, but ultimately veered nVidia off-course with its PC-focused GPU designs, and was partly to blame for NV30's late arrival to market almost two years ago. ADVERTISEMENT
This time around, nVidia is likely wiser from those experiences. Since it appears that nVidia will be licensing GPU technology to Sony rather than building the GPU itself, the company may not have to devote as many resources to this deal as it did for Microsoft with the Xbox.

The key for nVidia at this point is to maintain laser-like focus on its desktop GPU initiatives. At about the same that nVidia stumbled with NV30, ATI hit a home run with its R300 and captured considerable momentum and some market share from nVidia. The GeForce 6xxx line of GPUs represents a very good recovery from the woes that NV30-based GeForce 5xxx GPUs brought the company. However, the two-player GPU market these days leaves almost no room for execution error, and in the wake of NV30, NV50 needs to be a high-impact GPU to help nVidia continue to recapture share, both of market and mind.

In some sense, nVidia has fewer resource allocation worries since it's providing GPU technology for only one console, whereas ATI has two "black box" design groups working with Microsoft and Nintendo in addition to driving its line of desktop GPUs forward. The stakes, as always, are high, and both companies will walk a tight rope in executing these agreements, because in today's GPU market, there is no safety net.

Source (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1736885,00.asp?kc=ETRSS02129TX1K0000532)




Category: Multimedia

by Anton Shilov

[ 12/28/2004 ]

Peculiarities of PlayStation 3 Graphics Chip Emerge

UPDATE: Adding some DRAM-implementation related details.

Some peculiarities of the PlayStation 3 graphics processing unit developed at NVIDIA Corp. showed up on the web. It appears, that the visual processing unit will merge NVIDIA’s present and future generation architectures and will have built-in memory controller that supports Rambus’ XDR DRAM.

PlayStation 3 GPU Details Materialize

A report over Japanese web-site PC Watch suggests that the PlayStation 3 graphics processing unit will use NVIDIA’s technologies found in the current NV40 generation of its own chips as well as numerous techniques developed for the next-generation part known under NV50 code-name. Still, despite of circuitries of the company’s desktop chips found in the GPU, according to NVIDIA’s chief Jen-Hsun Huang, the PlayStation 3 GPU has nothing to do with Microsoft Windows, Microsoft DirectX or OpenGL and will use Sony’s API for the console. Naturally, the PlayStation 3 graphics processing units supports XDR DRAM memory developed by Rambus. While there is nothing new in Rambus memory for Sony, NVIDIA has never worked with memory by Rambus.

Jen-Hsun Huang, NVIDIA’s CEO and President said the two companies had worked closely “over the past two years” on the “next-generation computer entertainment system”. He said the company had been designing its next-generation GeForce GPU in parallel. It is unclear which chip Mr. Huang referred. NVIDIA is currently developing graphics processors code-named NV47 and NV50. The latter was recently rumoured to be cancelled, though.

The custom GPU will be manufactured at Sony Group’s Nagasaki Fab2 as well as OTSS (joint fabrication facility of Toshiba and Sony). The Sony’s Nagasaki Fab2 facility is known to use 65nm SOI fabrication process jointly developed by IBM. The fab is expected to be able to produce 15 thousand of 300mm wafers a month.

XDR Memory – Ideal for Consumer Apps, Target for Graphics Cards

Numerous leading consumer electronics companies, such as Sony or Panasonic, said they would adopt Rambus’ XDR memory for their devices, including Sony’s PlayStation 3 console and Panasonic’s digital TV-sets. Certain networking companies are also interested in XDR. Another target market for XDR memory may be graphics cards, according to reports earlier this year.

XDR DRAM can operate at 3.20GHz to 6.40GHz clock-speeds, providing industry leading bandwidth per pin, which is a benefit for networking and consumer applications.

“Graphics seems to be one of the important initial targets for XDR, as graphics applications today have nearly unlimited need for bandwidth out of a single DRAM. Networking is another important market as networking cards need high bandwidth but low capacity,” a source close to Rambus and GPU makers told X-bit labs earlier this year.

“Rambus has been in discussion with many different graphics processor manufacturers about XDR memory. There are not many choices for high-speed memory for GPU manufacturers, so it is natural that they would like to know about XDR and what it offers for their products,” the source noted.

Rambus offers memory controller that can work with DDR, DDR2, GDDR2, GDDR3 and XDR DRAM types of memory. While NVIDIA will have to implement an XDR-supporting memory controller into its PlayStation 3 GPU, it is yet unclear, whether the company licenses’ Rambus controller, or develops its own; in both cases the company will have to license the technology from Rambus. In both cases the controller may be used for different applications developed by NVIDIA Corp., including consumer, graphics, desktop and networking.

Source (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mmedia/display/20041228125957.html)

[rev>thanu]

The PS3 will have a NV40, how will this compare to the ati chip in xbox2?

Who told you that lie? :?


Playstation graphics chip a Janus Horribilis
Peripherals | Reads from WWW
Mon 03 Jan 2005

The Inquirer -- The graphic chip in the PlayStation 3 will be a hybrid NV40-50, according to reports at PC Watch and Xbit Labs.

While the bulk of the core will use NV40 (that's GeForce 6-series) architecture, techniques developed for the next-generation chip will also be utilised. Interestingly, we have recently been hearing that NV50 is cancelled, but what (if any) relationship this has to its utilisation in the PS3 we don't know.

The reports suggest that the GPU will be made at Son