Information on PS3 HDD

[Ice Phoenix]

"PS3 Hard Disk Sold Separately
Sony to keep hard disk separate from main system, according to magazine.
by Anoop Gantayat

June 30, 2005 - A recent issue of Famitsu contains confirmation that the PS3 will ship with a slot for a hard drive, but no actual hard drive included. The magazine has a feature in which all facets of the next generation systems are presented for the non-technically inclined (this is done through some hilarious cartoon drawings -- pick up issue 864 to see for yourself!). As part of a section detailing the hard disk functionality of the systems, the magazine states that, while Xbox 360 will ship with a 20 gigabyte hard disk included out of the box, the PS3 hard disk will be sold separately from the main system.

Sony Computer Entertainment has been hinting at this approach for some time now, but hasn't specifically stated its intentions one way or the other. In a recent interview with Nikkei Electronics, a bi-weekly electronics magazine in Japan, SCE president Ken Kutaragi hinted that we could expect an 80 gigabyte size for the PS3 hard disk. Given the added cost of such a large hard disk, Kutaragi's comments seemed to all but confirm that the device would be sold separately.

The question now turns to the cost of the hard disk peripheral. In Japan, Sony currently sells the PlayStation BB unit, which bundles a network adapter and 40 gigabyte hard disk together, for 12,800 yen.

Famitsu is a Japanese magazine, of course, so this confirmation applies only to the Japanese market. We'll have to wait for comment from Sony Computer Entertainment America on the possible stateside inclusion of a mass storage device with the PS3."

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/630/630331p1.html

[Coded-Dude]

G*DAMNIT! :evil:
If there was every anything that frustrated me about SONY; its their decisions about STORAGE.
The jokes on us....... :roll:

[Viper]

And so seperates the haves and the have nots. Real smooth Sony. Developers hate this as much as consumers.

[NeoPlayStation]

No standard HDD is a big mistake :evil:

[Domination]

How is this surprising if you all don't mind me asking? LOL!

[Coded-Dude]

How is this surprising if you all don't mind me asking? LOL!
Its not surprising to me at all{read my post} Its very frustrating....thats all.

I'd like to have a foot to nut-sack talk with whoever made that decision! :?

[rpgamer_2k5]

I hope the 80gb HDD isn't expensive; for one it better not even go over a $100 Canadian. If it does then the HDD will most likely fail like various other expensive peripherals. Seeing that I will purchase the Xbox 360 and Revolution; I will atleast have two consoles catering my online needs. I do still wish to use the PS3 as my personal computer, but I hope it doesn't come at a rediculous price. :evil:

[JetBlackRX89]

Ugh... they included a fancy BluRay drive but they didn't include even a simple HDD? They're missing some of the basics and too focused on other things. This may make me decide to get a 360 instead. I'm going to wait a little while after the PS3 comes out, and if their online services and HDD features suck, I'm gonna go for 360.

A console promising unparalleled graphics
[vrs]
A console that has a strong foot-hold in solid net play and an included HDD for extra features. Cheaper. Comes out sooner.

You can't win a war with pure power alone. Sorry, but I think Sony is trying to use brute strength too much and not thinking enough about what basic features we need.

And please don't critize me for loosing faith in Sony. As a consumer I have the right to choose over these two competing companies. Let's face it, some of the most entertaining games ever made didn't have "uuber smooth" graphics (San Andreas) and some of the graphically best games sucked when it came to its fun rating.

[Jasonps3]

Ugh, can someone just please tell one of the Sony Rep. to comfirm this, because this situation is starting to give us headaches.

[Ibanez32]

Besides custom soundtracks and game saves whats the big deal with having a hard drive. (I would have said game updates to but if its sold seperatley then that means people have got to have an internet connection and buy a hard drive, which will make the dev's less inclined to bother)

[Coded-Dude]

LINUX and media management: movie/music storage transcoding etc.
....and I bet they will make the HD mroe expensive since it wall have an OS on it.
This will prevent them from having to distribute CD's like the Linux for PS2 kits.

[Viper]

Besides custom soundtracks and game saves whats the big deal with having a hard drive. (I would have said game updates to but if its sold seperatley then that means people have got to have an internet connection and buy a hard drive, which will make the dev's less inclined to bother)That's the point. Had it been included, devs would be more likely to create extra content for downloads.

It can also be used for virtual RAM. Textures, videos, cutscenes and more can be loaded to the HD and it really helps with load times and can free up some of the main RAM for more important data.

Data is stored, accessed and read from 3 main locations.

Disc - Slow access and read

HD - Faster access and read

RAM - Much faster access and read.

[xbdestroya]

I don't think CD distribution (or lack of) will greatly effect the costs though. :wink:

I'm guessing at game store prices, an 80GB 2.5" drive is going to cost ~$100+. If it's less, that's actually a good deal! (can't do better than $103 on Newegg)

On the subject of launch day hard drive options, this paragraph sums up my thoughts on it:

Still, with the recent successful launch of the PSP 'value pack' inside of the United States - and the affinity North American gamers in particular seem to have towards hard drive inclusion - it might be possible that we will see a Playstation 3 value pack at launch, with maybe the hard drive and an extra controller thrown in. If not, it's likely the case that gaming retailers will take matters into their own hands and include hard drives in special PS3 launch bundles, giving the consumer the option.

[Coded-Dude]

I don't think CD distribution (or lack of) will greatly effect the costs though. :wink:
Yes I agree, but it could potentially cut down on the Piracy of the distro(linux)
How many people do you think ripped their Linux for PS2 cd's and gave it to someone else.
You couldn't really make an ISO, though you could still dd the disk......so it doesn't really matter I guess. :roll:

Plus Sony will more than likely add to the price and call it 30 install support or something like that.

[xbdestroya]

I don't think CD distribution (or lack of) will greatly effect the costs though. :wink:
Yes I agree, but it could potentially cut down on the Piracy of the distro(linux)
How many people do you think ripped their Linux for PS2 cd's and gave it to someone else.
You couldn't really make an ISO, though you could still dd the disk......so it doesn't really matter I guess. :roll:

Plus Sony will more than likely add to the price and call it 30 install support or something like that.

Hey, if people can make their Cell-centric Linux run on some other machine - more power to them! 8)

[Coded-Dude]

Well, I'm sure the major distors(RedHat, Suse, Debian, an dpossibly Mandrake) are already working on Linux for CELL, the dev kits supposedly run linux.
Anywho, I don't think its a matter of porting the linux to another hardware, the real question is what(how many) linux ditros will work on PS3.

It woudl be nice if any falvor worked, but I don't think SONY will allow too much.
They were pretty tight-fisted about Linux for PS2 and the stupid specialize RTE.

[Grandia]

This is the thing I hate about Sony, just when you think they're doing everything right, they do something so stupid.

I've got a question. Could Sony make it so that every game requires a HDD to work, which would force everyone to buy a HDD, allowing developers to program with the HDD in mind? This could be a smart move, if they could sell a 20GB HDD for about $30.

[xbdestroya]

Well actually I was just joking around anyway. Supposedly Cell-support will be put into the next Linux kernel anyway so I guess we could get all sorts of strange things happening.

[imported_Amadeus]

erghg. . .I completely lost my interest in the PS3 now. Maybe it'll sell in Japan, where they have a good economy, but not in America. Sorry, guys!

I know it's just a suggestion, but if, say,i'm forced to buy a 100 dollar hard drive just to play games, then f*** you, too, Sony.


The ONLY thing that's still making me want the PS3 a little bit is Metal Gear Solid 4, which Kojima said won't be ported to any other system. He better frikkin' change his mind if he wants people to buy his game, don't you think?


The 360 only has a handful of games that seem interesting to me (Full Auto,"zombies in the mall" game, forgot the title, and possibly killer Instinct 3), but if I decide I want to play games this gen, I might consider buything that intead.

[Metal Sphere]

The ONLY thing that's still making me want the PS3 a little bit is Metal Gear Solid 4, which Kojima said won't be ported to any other system. He better frikkin' change his mind if he wants people to buy his game, don't you think?


No. He'll keep it on the PS3 because it's the successor to what's going to be the best selling console to date. It's still a massive userbase and he'll still make quite a bit of dough.

These decisions are pissing off a considerable number of folks and is leading to a "grass is greener" type of situation in their minds. For everything the PS3 lacks in practicality, the 360 gains. And all the SD ports in the world won't change that, and in fact, make their presence on the console (as well as 3 ethernet ports and 6 USB ports) as frivolous.

The negative publicity, while publicity, doesn't help their case neither. This new Merill Lynch speculation though inaccurate, puts a damper on any anticipation fans might have for the PS3. It worked from the PS1 to PS2, but not again. With this steady stream of negativity towards the PS3, from the games shown to the controller to the hardware only serves to place doubt in the minds of those who were hell bent on getting one of these things at launch.

Sony should keep people baited. Provide more information to the press, prod developers for their best work so far, release statements on the controller and redesign work, etc.. This will have people chattering about it until the major announcements are made and well past them. People emphasize loss over gain, the negative over the positive, and this is a prime example of this. Big splash at E3, but this human tendency weakens or stops the ripples made by the big event.

XB, you of all folks should realize this. Nearly every day, some new partnership, exclusivity, etc is displayed on TXB's main page. There's always a sense of something happening on the 360. They paint, at least, the impression that everyone's on getting on board the 360 Xpress and you should too. This isn't the case with Sony. They're letting their format war agenda get involved with the Playstation, as well as their other divisions by allowing a plethora of ultimately useless ports to be placed on the console.

One word to describe the state Sony is in is complacency. Hell, one could even make the case that Kutaragi is the next Yamaushi, with his rants, etc..

[Raijin]

Personnally, I dont care a shit about the HDD, so yeah, I'm still interested in it. :lol:

[shagawi]

Hey guys take it easy it's not even confirmed from SONY.

Anyway SONY will unviell everything about PS3 before xbox360 launch.

[Z]

That's the point. Had it been included, devs would be more likely to create extra content for downloads.
An HDD isn’t essential for gaming. Xbox had an HDD built in and the majority of devs ignored it completely. In PS2, the only online game to require an HDD is FF11.

It seems that HDD is important at first, but it isn’t. how about online gaming? Online gamers are a mere fraction compared to gamers that do not use online. So the rest of the uses is for small tweaks like storing music, pictures, etc. but even at that, PS3 supports many flash memory cards. Chances are you’ll be using them more since you can simply exchange it between your PS3, PC, PSP, and other devices.

Finally, I do not see what is the big deal behind this. Sony will offer a bigger HDD than X2 (just like what happened with Xbox and PS2 HDD. In fact, PS2’s HDD is 40G, bigger than X2’s and Xbox’s and Rev’s combined!). Is it really that much trouble to either buy a bundle pack or pic the HDD separately? Don’t be so cheap ;)

Personally, I rather have the HDD sold separately. I have stated this before any confirmation about any storage for all three consoles. This gives gamers the freedom to not pay extra for an HDD if they are not to use it. what about those who want a cheaper HDD with smaller a smaller capacity? What about the media freaks (like me) that want the biggest capacity available on the market- +250G!?

Finally I am glad that the price of PS3 will not be more expensive for adding a peripheral that the majority of gamers will not use.

[Metal Sphere]

XB has probably seen this over on you-know-where, but this is a post made by someone who's clearly though this whole situation out:


I can't believe people actually think Sony will launch at 399.99. Sony will do what it did last time. Release at a price that costs THEM an arm and a leg with a shortage and a media blitz. Prices will skyrocket as people begin the ebay blitz and soon everyone will want one. About the time Sony makes the cost to manufacture closer to the MSRP.

I can't believe people think a 20 gig hard drive costs 100 dollars. For Pete's sake, go price a 100 gig hard drive and then come back and tell me a 20 gig'll cost 100 bucks next year. Think. Stop regurgitating old data. A 20 gig hard drive next year'll cost 50 bucks, tops. Plus, if your system has 512 megs of total RAM to play with (PS3 and Xbox 360 both), then I suspect hard drive swapping is about the dumbest thing you could do, killing your bandwidth by a lot. Giving the hard drive advantage only when swapping save games or saving online data. Neither of which do the person you bandy concerns about. The casual consumer doesn't know enough about broadband to go pay for Live or even care about Live and if you want to talk about wastes of resources, wasting your time making Live the selling feature when most Xbox 1 owners don't even take advantage of Live is a waste of time. Improving a feature that a great many PS2 users used that was built in (DVD playback) is the smart move...

Speaking of that, anyone who thinks Blu-Ray has no shot needs to actually research the issue a bit more. The disc-movie sites (thedigitalbits.com, dvdfile.com) all think Blu-Ray has a reasonable shot because its not just a Sony-only format. Hell, its got almost the entirety of the PC optical disc on its side, it has most every electronics company (excluding Toshiba and NEC), and it has approximately half of the movie publishers supporting it. So you only show your fanboyism to hate on Blu-Ray just because its in the PS3. Think of the UMD format and think back. How many of you thought it wouldn't sell at all? Why, then, does it have already have movie publishers now scrambling to get titles out? Hell, you can buy UMD discs at Wal-mart! What makes you think Blu-Ray will be any different? If Sony can push a movie format for a single outlet (only played on the PSP), I think they can get the word of mouth out on Blu-Ray.

Everyone here is so obsessed with the hard drive, you don't stop to think about what you're going to use it for or how much it'd really cost if you bought it as a peripheral. A detachable hard drive ain't going to make for a great swap place for virtual memory in a system that should NOT be doing any disc swapping. Nor is it going to be worth not having high definition movie playback if Blu-Ray becomes THE hot optical format next year making dvd look traditional rather than cutting edge.

Again, I say. I don't expect Sony to sell the PS3 for 399.99 UNLESS they throw in a 30 dollar to manufacture hard drive and do the bundle game they played with the PSP. Even then, I suspect you'd see a 349.99 PS3 with a free Blu-Ray movie. Perhaps we'd see... Spiderman 2?

The thing is I see a lot of arguments about the theory of price and its influence on customers. Well, lets see. I see the enthusiast who will buy it at whatever its cost as long as its new and its gaming. They're going to buy PS3 regardless. They're the ones who were buying those insane bundles from EB and Gamestop for 400-600 dollars for those early PS2's that everyone here seems to have forgotten. Have you forgotten the insanity that followed the PS2 launch? That no one could get any, that prices were insane, and that people WERE in fact buying those systems along with dozens of mediocre games? This was even with the Dreamcast available, newly pricecut, and full of new and great games that filled the shelves. And that's what the Dreamcast's better titles did, they collected dust on the shelves while the news and the ads and the press and the internet forums filled with people craving Playstation 2 because Playstation 1 was so hot. And guess what? Playstation 2's been hotter than PS1.

What made the PS2's launch so crazy? The way the casuals were drawn to the PS2 and the way they paid insane amounts for that right to have the PS2. It was the thing to have that year. In fact, I wonder what the casuals will do this time. Does Xbox have the name that Playstation does? I don't know. I don't think so. I think the PS2's outstanding sales keep it more "known" than Xbox. And I don't think those gamers, those casuals who bought the PS2 when it had no good games, are going to care about hard drives, blu-ray, or Live. I think they'll care which one has Halo or which one has Grand Theft Auto. Perfect Dark may be a franchise to we who follow games, but what does the mainstream care about a title that was a poor sequel to Goldeneye on a system *nearly* two generations ago? Kameo what? Gears of War comes next year. And so does Halo 3 (or later) and Forza's sequel. Does anyone think Halo 3 will be ready just two years after Halo 2? Maybe.

So the casuals buy whatever is hot and nothing about the Xbox 360 or PS3 makes either outstandingly hot against each other. But lets say that Microsoft does the unlikely and somehow pushes the Xbox 360 into the mainstream the way that Sony pushed the PS2 into the mainstream over Sega's loudest whimpers... well, that gives them this Christmas. Sony has next Christmas and Sony has at least six months of hardware improvements before their launch. People talk about Sony's "value" proposition, but the truth is you don't even know their price for certain. How can one judge how much a part will cost Sony when Sony has neither manufactured that part on a large scale nor even finalized the GPU portion of Sony's machine? nVidia's still working on that and will be working on that for the rest of the summer.

So ask yourself and be honest. How can you *know* Sony's RSX part will be identical in performance to the GPU on the Xbox 360 if not even Sony or nVidia know how fast that part will be or how much faster they can push it? How does *anyone* know if the two companies developing and manufacturing it don't know? And why would anyone who doesn't actually know claim they do know how fast it will be unless they're lying to you? Sony and nVidia tell you openly that the hardware they have now is poorly optimized and not even built for Cell architecture because its actually PC hardware mimicking that hardware. Might seem bad for Sony to say that, but better to do that than be MS and act like you have real Xbox 360's running and have dual core G5's running emulation instead six months from launch.

Will the casuals care? That seems to be the thing that most people are obsessed with. Will the casuals want Live? So far, the answer seems no. How much of Xbox 1's userbase uses Live, even considering built-in networking and hard drive and increase in broadband penetration? 1 million, 2 million? Out of how many millions of Xbox sold?

Enthusiasts buy anything new that is fresh and hot. So they'll buy the Xbox 360, they'll probably buy the PS3 and likely buy the Revolution. Gameboy 2, PSP 1.5, Nokia's nGage Xtreme. They're at least considering it. Fanboys, they buy whatever they become fixated on. PS3, PSP. XB0X SUCKORZZZ!! Or Xbox 360. Sony sucks, they all breakzorz!!! Then there's Nintendo's fanboys. They love sprites and nostalgia, which makes The Revolution's biggest feature by far the ability to relive all those Nintendo classics and makes their move brilliant for their fanbase. Low cost makes it an excellent second console, but being second console always relegates you to second place, at best.

But ask yourself. If you're not a casual who will be swayed by marketing or newspress, if you're not an enthusiast who will buy anything, if you're not a fanboy who will hate specifically something after you become obsessed with hating it, if you're not a nostalgic n-Fan, then what else is left?

Yes, that's the technophile. Technophiles are like enthusiasts, except they are one step up the rung. They live for technology. Do they care about Xbox because its got Live? Nah, not really. They care about Xbox because it has component output and can do Dolby Digital Live encoding built-in and pump it through their home theater. You know them. You see them in forums not specifically this one arguing about whether PS2 dvd playback is better than the PS2 slim's dvd playback and which one is quieter in their home theater.

These are the ones who supported Xbox along with the enthusiasts and the Sony haters. They were the early adopters because they have the cash to burn, but they have to see technical advantage to it. Now if you are a technophile and you see 1) Xbox 360 with 720p through yesteryear's component output or 2) PS3 with 1080p, dual HDMI display, Gigabit networking, bluetooth, wireless G, and the big-bang that is Blu-Ray, which do they pick to crave?

There's more...

[Metal Sphere]

This is the rest of his "article" which is just a massive post calmly pointing out the errors people have been committing all this time:

Casuals are easily swayed. Maybe they go Xbox 360 this year. They went Dreamcast the year before PS2 and that didn't help Sega. I'm not saying Xbox 360 will go Dreamcast way, but I *am* saying that being first is not always the best place to be and I don't think being first guarantees you the best press the next year or years afterward. Who's got the bigger name in the press, Xbox or Playstation? Enthusiasts buy everything. Technophiles will almost certainly piss all over themselves to get PS3, but maybe they'll buy an Xbox 360 to tide them over. Some might just to get the 720p for a while, but the PS3'll have the features to win 'em. Nostalgia gamers'll go Nintendo. Fanboys go whereever their hatred isn't.

I believe Sony'll do more or less what they've done this generation, but Microsoft will gain more marketshare this time than they did last time by being similar but not identical to Sega's performance this past go-round. I think Microsoft will wind up with a 30-40 percent slice of the marketshare, Sony with 60-70 and Nintendo will hobble in as the second system for nearly everyone, but find third party publishers very reluctant to come on board.

Next generation, Microsoft will go with the proper technologies, Sony will go with the proper technologies, Nintendo will continue its inward spiral of aggressive self-centeredness and you'll see a more even slice.

But I think Microsoft sacrificed the core diehards they had by losing the technology advantage in favor of making a few dollars here and there in the early going and so I think they will have to make up for that with the casuals that so far still seem ultimately attached to Sony. Microsoft's marketing has never been its strongest suit and to best Sony, it's going to have to learn how to market its hardware louder and brighter than Sony... and in a hurry.

[xbdestroya]

First of all - Amadeus, Japan's economy has been in a semi-funk for a decade now, so if they buy the hard drive it has nothing to do with the economy, of which the US presently has the stronger, but with their precollection towards gadgetry. 8)



XB, you of all folks should realize this. Nearly every day, some new partnership, exclusivity, etc is displayed on TXB's main page. There's always a sense of something happening on the 360. They paint, at least, the impression that everyone's on getting on board the 360 Xpress and you should too. This isn't the case with Sony. They're letting their format war agenda get involved with the Playstation, as well as their other divisions by allowing a plethora of ultimately useless ports to be placed on the console.


Metal I do indeed realize this - believe me I do.

Here is my theory:

Aspect 1) You as a consumer cannot go out right now and purchase an XBox 360. You simply cannot do it, as dissatisfied as you are with Sony, you just cannot vent your anger through a purchase.

Aspect 2) Microsoft does not have much time left before their system needs to go into production. Talk is that they have a window of opportunity with the R500; they can raise the clock or stick with incredible yields is the word. But they can't have this window in too many other components - it is for the most part locked.

Aspect 3) Sony DOES have a little bit of time; just a little. More time to scheme than anything, and more time to build hype. Are they building hype? No I don't think they really are right now. But they did during E3, and I think they will during TGS.

I think they will during TGS in a big way.

Let them get all the dissapointing stuff out there now - all the stuff that makes people hate them. Let it sink in. But at TGS do to Microsoft as bad as they did to them at E3 - pile on the cheesy CGI visuals, claim everything in the world is real time, show a glimpse of soem Final Fantasy stuff - show some awesome FPS - show GT - show GTA - bam bam bam, relentless. Who cares if it's real? The public will be confused - impressed.

And then - show the Linux, show the awesome GUI, show a cohesive online strategy and service. Exude confidence, arrogance, the aura of invincibility. Make Microsoft feel inadequate in Tokyo, make them feel out of place.

And they'll 'succeed' like they did at E3, and Microsoft will be locked into their plan. They'll succeed and the doubters will stagger like they did before; stagger and fall.

NOW - to end this theory, this is my defcon 5 battle plan for Sony, and it's what I would do in their shoes if at all achievable. Until TGS I would just take all the punches and smile. Do I think this will happen? I don't know - I hope for Sony's sake on one level or another it's their plan. And if I am wrong, well so much the worse for Sony - they'll need to hire some new marketing folk - but anyway...

NOTE: I should note though, that regardless of anything else, if their product in the end actually does end up being better, though their sales might dip on lack of hype in the beginning, they should end the gen safely as the leaders once more. It's when the product is the same or worse that you have to rely on 'hype' doubly as much.

[xbdestroya]

EDIT: Actually I hadn't seen that post yet Metal, I was too busy writing my reply! :P

It's pretty good though, makes some good points.

(I haven't read it all yet though and I have to wonder where his hard drive costs are coming from. Sony should be able to source 20 gig hard drives, were they to do so, for ~$30 each)

EDIT SOME MORE: I like the fact he mentions bundles, as I strongly believe Sony/retailers will go that route as well (as I mentioned above). He makes a good point also of PS3 possibly appealing to the crowd that just has to have 'the best,' regardless of anything else.

[Viper]

That's the point. Had it been included, devs would be more likely to create extra content for downloads.
An HDD isn’t essential for gaming. Xbox had an HDD built in and the majority of devs ignored it completely. In PS2, the only online game to require an HDD is FF11.

It seems that HDD is important at first, but it isn’t. how about online gaming? Online gamers are a mere fraction compared to gamers that do not use online. So the rest of the uses is for small tweaks like storing music, pictures, etc. but even at that, PS3 supports many flash memory cards. Chances are you’ll be using them more since you can simply exchange it between your PS3, PC, PSP, and other devices.

Finally, I do not see what is the big deal behind this. Sony will offer a bigger HDD than X2 (just like what happened with Xbox and PS2 HDD. In fact, PS2’s HDD is 40G, bigger than X2’s and Xbox’s and Rev’s combined!). Is it really that much trouble to either buy a bundle pack or pic the HDD separately? Don’t be so cheap ;)

Personally, I rather have the HDD sold separately. I have stated this before any confirmation about any storage for all three consoles. This gives gamers the freedom to not pay extra for an HDD if they are not to use it. what about those who want a cheaper HDD with smaller a smaller capacity? What about the media freaks (like me) that want the biggest capacity available on the market- +250G!?

Finally I am glad that the price of PS3 will not be more expensive for adding a peripheral that the majority of gamers will not use.

Essential, No and I never said it was.

My point is merely that if it's not included, devs will not support it. I made no mention of it being an issue with how big it is, cost or past usage by Sony devs. There are a few Xbox games that are not possible without the HD. Had the Xbox not had an HD, it would not have had those games and others would have suffered longer loads and less textures.

This reminds me of the people that are bitching that Nintendo might not include HD in the Rev. Is it needed to enjoy great gaming? Not at all, just look at the classics.

[GUNDAMSEED]

Does not matter to me any way . I did not want it to ship with a small HDD any way , anything under 40 is trash . hell you can get HDD that is 40gbs for less than a game some people are just to damn cheap .

[Metal Sphere]

Metal I do indeed realize this - believe me I do.

Here is my theory:

Aspect 1) You as a consumer cannot go out right now and purchase an XBox 360. You simply cannot do it, as dissatisfied as you are with Sony, you just cannot vent your anger through a purchase.

Aspect 2) Microsoft does not have much time left before their system needs to go into production. Talk is that they have a window of opportunity with the R500; they can raise the clock or stick with incredible yields is the word. But they can't have this window in too many other components - it is for the most part locked.

Aspect 3) Sony DOES have a little bit of time; just a little. More time to scheme than anything, and more time to build hype. Are they building hype? No I don't think they really are right now. But they did during E3, and I think they will during TGS.


Those 3 seem pretty much in line with what's currently going on, and if you're not on the money I'd say you're in the ballpark. The RSX is expected to be taped out by August, so that must put the R500 close to completion if not completed. Because the Xbox was a nothing more than an introductory console for Microsoft into the gaming industry, I can see them going for the increased yields. It's the primary reason why they ended this generation early and the reason why they didn't go for hardware superiority this time around. They're more concerned with making a profit, and their decisions will reflect that goal.

If Sony will do anything, above all else, is build hype. Seeing what they did for the PS2 after the PS1 became a hit, I'm a bit scared to see what they'll pull off for the PS3. It seems each console's success only fuels their upcoming machine, with no small part to the games and the backwards compatibility.


I think they will during TGS in a big way.

Let them get all the dissapointing stuff out there now - all the stuff that makes people hate them. Let it sink in. But at TGS do to Microsoft as bad as they did to them at E3 - pile on the cheesy CGI visuals, claim everything in the world is real time, show a glimpse of soem Final Fantasy stuff - show some awesome FPS - show GT - show GTA - bam bam bam, relentless. Who cares if it's real? The public will be confused - impressed.

And then - show the Linux, show the awesome GUI, show a cohesive online strategy and service. Exude confidence, arrogance, the aura of invincibility. Make Microsoft feel inadequate in Tokyo, make them feel out of place.

And they'll 'succeed' like they did at E3, and Microsoft will be locked into their plan. They'll succeed and the doubters will stagger like they did before; stagger and fall.

NOW - to end this theory, this is my defcon 5 battle plan for Sony, and it's what I would do in their shoes if at all achievable. Until TGS I would just take all the punches and smile. Do I think this will happen? I don't know - I hope for Sony's sake on one level or another it's their plan. And if I am wrong, well so much the worse for Sony - they'll need to hire some new marketing folk - but anyway...

Why does that sound like something I've seen or heard before...? Just reading that made me feel as if I had read about something similar before. Again, if Sony's record with the Playstation consoles are anything, they'll do what you described above. It's launching in Japan first, their strongest area, so why not utterly slam your strongest competition in the market where they're weakest? It would make sense, and they'd be capitalizing on the PS2's success as well as boosting the PS3 in the minds of the Japanese as well as the rest of the world.

CGI, videos, etc.. can all be present at TGS, but the most important feature would be playable PS3 games. While early, they would be effective in doing 2 things:

1. Presenting the world with actual PS3 graphics, early ones at that, and flooding the internet with new PS3 media and therefore boosting interest.

2. Soothing the public's doubts about the PS3's controller by having folks say it's extremely comfortable, or having the actual controller present which would destroy another potential "weak point" in the PS3's overall package.

Jeez, TGS is so far away, and Summer is the drought of gaming. This is going to be one long wait.


NOTE: I should note though, that regardless of anything else, if their product in the end actually does end up being better, though their sales might dip on lack of hype in the beginning, they should end the gen safely as the leaders once more. It's when the product is the same or worse that you have to rely on 'hype' doubly as much.

So you're saying they might rely less on hype because their hardware is on par or superior to their competitor's? I don't know about that. I'd say in both situations (superiority vs inferiority) hype is important, with it being doubly so in the latter (like you said). But it's still important if you're in a situation like the former, so consumers will be compelled to choose the one they've heard more as being "superior". Not like the press won't have a small part in this, as the mainstream media has already got a grasp on the PS3 as being 2x as powerful as the 360.

This is interesting stuff, but it boils down to "wait and see".

[indie85]

Jeez, I can't believe people are bitching about sony not throwing in a HDD as well! Bloody hell, I mean seriously, if the PS3 isn't a steal of the century already I don't know what is. Don't be cheap assholes, another $50 isn't gonna hurt you, your getting what a pc gaming enthusiast would have to pay $thousands, literally, even then it would be dubious whether it'd match a closed-optimised system of the ps3.
Also the argument gaming devs can't make games with a HDD in mind is bunk too, there is such a thing as putting a requirement on the the box of the game. Not that a gaming dev would ever require making a game with a HDD needed, considering the PS3 has blu-ray. The only thing I can think of that a dev could possibly use it for is maybe virtual RAM, but then seeing as thats around a 1000x (no exaggeration) inefficient as even standard RAM, let alone XDR RAM with it has 256MB of.
Bottom line is, a HDD isn't needed, although it is nice having the slot to allow people to attach one to allow people to store music, extra levels etc.

[xbdestroya]

@Metal Sphere:

Firstly I agree with what you said about the controllers - very important that there be real live people exclaiming how much they love them.

Secondly, playable games - yeah it's important - but only if they look reaaally good. :wink: You can be sure Microsoft, after being wounded at E3, is going to be coming with whatever cleaned up visuals they can muster.



So you're saying they might rely less on hype because their hardware is on par or superior to their competitor's? I don't know about that. I'd say in both situations (superiority vs inferiority) hype is important, with it being doubly so in the latter (like you said). But it's still important if you're in a situation like the former, so consumers will be compelled to choose the one they've heard more as being "superior". Not like the press won't have a small part in this, as the mainstream media has already got a grasp on the PS3 as being 2x as powerful as the 360.

This is interesting stuff, but it boils down to "wait and see".

EDIT: I had a long long post down here, but I'm replacing it because in the end I basically agree Metal. 8) What I was trying to convey was just that, similar to how I feel XBox has enjoyed a positive viral word-of-mouth boost the last year or so, were Sony's PS3 to be the better of the two, in theory that viral effect could be a good bit more magnified considering the larger default install base, swinging the momentum of the Internet chat rooms back behind Sony and in their favor.

[Grandia]

Jeez, I can't believe people are bitching about sony not throwing in a HDD as well! Bloody hell, I mean seriously, if the PS3 isn't a steal of the century already I don't know what is. Don't be cheap assholes, another $50 isn't gonna hurt you, your getting what a pc gaming enthusiast would have to pay $thousands, literally, even then it would be dubious whether it'd match a closed-optimised system of the ps3.
Also the argument gaming devs can't make games with a HDD in mind is bunk too, there is such a thing as putting a requirement on the the box of the game. Not that a gaming dev would ever require making a game with a HDD needed, considering the PS3 has blu-ray. The only thing I can think of that a dev could possibly use it for is maybe virtual RAM, but then seeing as thats around a 1000x (no exaggeration) inefficient as even standard RAM, let alone XDR RAM with it has 256MB of.
Bottom line is, a HDD isn't needed, although it is nice having the slot to allow people to attach one to allow people to store music, extra levels etc.
Well it seems that there are developers that see it differently than you.

He does, however, state that the PlayStation 3 will probably need a hard disk in order to see Final Fantasy XI-style games, stating he was surprised to hear that Sony is considering not including a hard disk with the system. Character growth still requires a hard disk, explains Tanaka, and this will be the case unless everyone has a fiber optic internet connection (and even if that were the case, server charges associated with storing and transfering gigabytes worth of data would make monthly user fees rise to ten times their current level).

Anyway, so can anyone answer the question to my first post?

[Viper]

This is the thing I hate about Sony, just when you think they're doing everything right, they do something so stupid.

I've got a question. Could Sony make it so that every game requires a HDD to work, which would force everyone to buy a HDD, allowing developers to program with the HDD in mind? This could be a smart move, if they could sell a 20GB HDD for about $30.That would be financial and corporate suicide and an illegal practice I belive.

[Metal Sphere]

@Metal Sphere:

Firstly I agree with what you said about the controllers - very important that there be real live people exclaiming how much they love them.

Secondly, playable games - yeah it's important - but only if they look reaaally good. :wink: You can be sure Microsoft, after being wounded at E3, is going to be coming with whatever cleaned up visuals they can muster.


Seeing as that's one of the most important parts of a console, positive feedback on the controllers (and an improved aesthetic appearance) will do wonders for the perception of the console as a whole. What would be an amazing kick in the pants would be if the Dual Shock returned with some things changed, but with it being closer to the DS2 as opposed to the Bananarang.

Hmm, that's why the CGI would be there...or maybe that's a bad idea. Well, by the time September rolls around, there'd only be 7 months left before the launch. The games should be looking somewhat decent and with CGI, videos of unfinished game segments and a flood of information from upcoming titles well past launch, it'd be enough to seal the deal. And without a doubt in those final months, Sony will be ramping up the hype.


EDIT: I had a long long post down here, but I'm replacing it because in the end I basically agree Metal. 8) What I was trying to convey was just that, similar to how I feel XBox has enjoyed a positive viral word-of-mouth boost the last year or so, were Sony's PS3 to be the better of the two, in theory that viral effect could be a good bit more magnified considering the larger default install base, swinging the momentum of the Internet chat rooms back behind Sony and in their favor.

Ah, it's alright. Sometimes my posts just drag on even though the point could be made in a paragraph or less. I see what you mean though. During this generation, the Xbox had the advantage of being technologically superior to the PS2. Most people don't want to get stuck with "inferior" products and might've avoided the PS2 for that reason. Now that this reason is gone and the massive amount of games playable on the console from day one there'd be no reason not to pick it up (unless the games didn't interest them). Coupled with the comfortable controller, strong gameplay, attractive graphics and console, explosive media coverage and internet chatter, I can see what HisDivineShadow was talking about. Talk about massive hype and this time backed up by formidable hardware and a multitude of big game franches, it's going to be a juggernaut. The price could be it's achilles heel, but that'll probably come down with production costs, etc..

BTW, which PS3 color do you like? The black unit is gorgeous and it fits in well with standard electronics color schemes, not mention the curve is extremely attractive and plays the light hitting the console well.

[xbdestroya]

BTW, which PS3 color do you like? The black unit is gorgeous and it fits in well with standard electronics color schemes, not mention the curve is extremely attractive and plays the light hitting the console well.

Yeah I prefer the black - but word seems to be that silver will be the only color at launch. Which is fine with me, since ironically silver is the color I thought I'd want before E3.

(and I like the bananarang as well!)

[Metal Sphere]

BTW, which PS3 color do you like? The black unit is gorgeous and it fits in well with standard electronics color schemes, not mention the curve is extremely attractive and plays the light hitting the console well.

Yeah I prefer the black - but word seems to be that silver will be the only color at launch. Which is fine with me, since ironically silver is the color I thought I'd want before E3.

(and I like the bananarang as well!)

Hmm, is this the same word that said the controller will only receive minor changes or that the PS3 will only have 256MB of memory? Who exactly have they been surveying? In the recent PSM, which I just received, it says there were 4 colors shown:

Black, White, Aluminum, and Metal Fleck. The pictures we've all seen only have 3, but could it be that that last one is really that good looking? Again, I wouldn't be surprised if all of them are available at launch or at least the 2 most popular. All the colors have been on previous Playstation incarnations:

Silver/Grey = PSX
White = PSOne
Black = PS2, PSTwo
Metal Fleck = PS3?

Marketing wise, I'd go for the color that seems to lean towards futuristic electronics. At least lighten the silver to achieve a more "brushed aluminum" or "high end electronic device" feel.

Edit: Oh and with some slight modifications, the handles for one and fixing the face buttons and shoulder buttons will fix the overall appearance of the controller. Heck in black it'd look pretty good. Just...don't expect it in gloss black. It'll be the PSP all over again.

[xbdestroya]

LOL, no I didn't get the 'word' from any of that nonsense pre-E3. :wink:

I'm just going with the recent Kutaragi interview in Nikkei Electronics from a week or two ago:

...Kutaragi also talked about the look of the PS3, commenting that he and Teiyu Goto, the console designer of the original PlayStation and the PS2, decided to give the PS3's body a curved surface after considering shapes that hadn't existed in either consoles or computers in the past. When asked if the curved surface made developing internal architecture difficult, Kutaragi said that internal architecture was already being considered when the body was designed, like where the BD-ROM reader's motor and connectors would be placed, as well as how heat would be released. Kutaragi also stated that he prepared three PS3 mock-ups for E3 in silver, white, and black. He settled on the silver one, after gathering a consensus from a variety of different developers and distributors....

[Metal Sphere]

LOL, no I didn't get the 'word' from any of that nonsense pre-E3. :wink:

I'm just going with the recent Kutaragi interview in Nikkei Electronics from a week or two ago:

...Kutaragi also talked about the look of the PS3, commenting that he and Teiyu Goto, the console designer of the original PlayStation and the PS2, decided to give the PS3's body a curved surface after considering shapes that hadn't existed in either consoles or computers in the past. When asked if the curved surface made developing internal architecture difficult, Kutaragi said that internal architecture was already being considered when the body was designed, like where the BD-ROM reader's motor and connectors would be placed, as well as how heat would be released. Kutaragi also stated that he prepared three PS3 mock-ups for E3 in silver, white, and black. He settled on the silver one, after gathering a consensus from a variety of different developers and distributors....

Ahh, jeez. Maybe down the line they'll sell a black/white PS3 like they did with the PS2. Hmm, do you have a picture of the silver one? Hopefully it's not that dreadful "gray" looking thing in the trio...

[Applefiend]

Really hope they don't go with a built in HDD, that would be a huge mistake.

Nobody will want a $500 console, it's already more expensive because of the blu ray drive, but blue ray is essential, an HDD is not.

[Maya 5.0]

That is true.No HDD in the PS3 is not a big deal for me since i would of upgraded anyways to a much larger capacity and i would of been left with a 20 gig that could of never of been used again.

The average consumer is probably getting the PS3 for the games only and not worrying about upsampling their DVD collection.

The fact that it will make it more affordable is a BIG plus.

One question i have is if i can use any HDD i want or will i have to purchase a Sony brand HDD with special firmware that only works with the PS3 like the PS2 one did?

[Jasonps3]

That is true.No HDD in the PS3 is not a big deal for me since i would of upgraded anyways to a much larger capacity and i would of been left with a 20 gig that could of never of been used again.

The average consumer is probably getting the PS3 for the games only and not worrying about upsampling their DVD collection.

The fact that it will make it more affordable is a BIG plus.

One question i have is if i can use any HDD i want or will i have to purchase a Sony brand HDD with special firmware that only works with the PS3 like the PS2 one did?

Who knows, maybe they will allow people the use different brands of 2.5 inch HDD on the PS3. That just many questions that we never know until close to launch or even in September.

Yeah, that's what I think as well. I don't care that I have to pay it by itself as long as it's available at launch. Xbox 360 may have a good bargain adding the 20 gig with the package deal. But if someone wants to upgrade the HDD to a 80 gig (for people who want to add more HD Videos on their HDD), not only they have to pay for it anyway, but they have to wait until they release it.

[JetBlackRX89]

Hmm... this is a very good topic. Cleared up a lot of things. I agree 100% that retailers will take it into their own hands and make bundles. But as long as the PS3 has HDDs available at launch, it's guaranteed be in a bundle in some type or form. From there it should take off. This was impossible with the PS2 because the HDD wasn't available at launch. In addition, the PS2 HDD wasn't very useful without a network adapter, which was sold seperately and cost even more. Seems Sony learned from their mistakes and these two problems won't exist with the PS3.

A quick comment about the console colors: The PS3's official color is the grey case, but the black and white case consoles will also be available at launch as well. The reason why many assume only the grey one will be available is because it's most commonly seen in pictures. That's because Sony only made grey controllers. The controller is only a concept that was rushed out in time for the pre-E3 conference and they didn't bother making it in all three colors. Showing screenshots of a black PS3 with a grey controller would look odd, so for that reason we've mostly seen the grey console featured alongside their grey prototype controller.

[Leedogg]

That is true.No HDD in the PS3 is not a big deal for me since i would of upgraded anyways to a much larger capacity and i would of been left with a 20 gig that could of never of been used again.

The average consumer is probably getting the PS3 for the games only and not worrying about upsampling their DVD collection.

The fact that it will make it more affordable is a BIG plus.

One question i have is if i can use any HDD i want or will i have to purchase a Sony brand HDD with special firmware that only works with the PS3 like the PS2 one did?
Correction* many IDE HDDs will work with the PS2, you just have to have the HDADVANCE disc to format it, in fact, HDD's up to 250 GB will work. Just go to their website they have the HDD's listed.

[Metal Sphere]

Well, if Sony bundles the PS3 with the HDD as they did with the PSP and sell it for $300, we'll see the HDD go into mass use. Not to mention if it's available seperately at launch , people will probably pick it up (seeing as first adopters are usually techies).

In Kaz's latest interview, he mentions that they haven't decided on pricing and whether to include an HDD standard.

[Angeljuice]

A quick comment about the console colors: The PS3's official color is the grey case, but the black and white case consoles will also be available at launch as well. The reason why many assume only the grey one will be available is because it's most commonly seen in pictures. That's because Sony only made grey controllers. The controller is only a concept that was rushed out in time for the pre-E3 conference and they didn't bother making it in all three colors. Showing screenshots of a black PS3 with a grey controller would look odd, so for that reason we've mostly seen the grey console featured alongside their grey prototype controller.

Do you have any links to confirm the colour situation? I was only able to find this;

"...Kutaragi also talked about the look of the PS3, commenting that he and Teiyu Goto, the console designer of the original PlayStation and the PS2, decided to give the PS3's body a curved surface after considering shapes that hadn't existed in either consoles or computers in the past. When asked if the curved surface made developing internal architecture difficult, Kutaragi said that internal architecture was already being considered when the body was designed, like where the BD-ROM reader's motor and connectors would be placed, as well as how heat would be released. Kutaragi also stated that he prepared three PS3 mock-ups for E3 in silver, white, and black. He settled on the silver one, after gathering a consensus from a variety of different developers and distributors."

Here's the posting in it's entirety;
http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6983

[Red_Eyes]

I think that Sony purposely gave the magazine that info to see how people will react to it. If gamers react negatively to that idea that a hd will not be included, Sony might include it. But if everybody's like, "hmm... don't care" then Sony dont need to include it. So everybody, start acting negatively!

[JetBlackRX89]

If they knew enough at the conference to only make grey controllers, why present the two other console colors? It seems odd to me. Sony knows a lot of people like the black console and people would be upset if limited to grey.

But then another point I just thought of is that if they make 3 different colors, they will have to make all PS3 acessories in the three colors to match. It'd me much simpler to go with one color. And the controller they presented has been confirmed to be nothing like the final design. Sony has heard the loud complaints and are changing the design, so now they stress over and over how it's only a concept. The black and white consoles were probably concepts too. Anything is open to change between now and 2006.

[MegaGrid]

In 2006 when it will be released things might change it depends on the market. Well you could do away with a HD for the first months but let me describe you a pic. A Game where it caches a certain portion in the Hard Disk so that it wont have to be reloaded from the Blu-ray. Especially when there is a portion of a game reloaded frequently.
A game should run without a HD this is certain but in order to get advantage of online entertainment you should have a HD. Suppose you can download an add-in on a game and plug it in the game with some of the vast software technologies out there. This is another issue also.
It will be a serious draw-back if they do not ship it with a HD and why not a Linux as Kutaragi said. It is a risk that SONY has to take. The money can come back from the Software they sell and its acceptance. They should seriously think of this balance.

[Sephiroth_VII]

This is the thing I hate about Sony, just when you think they're doing everything right, they do something so stupid.

I've got a question. Could Sony make it so that every game requires a HDD to work, which would force everyone to buy a HDD, allowing developers to program with the HDD in mind? This could be a smart move, if they could sell a 20GB HDD for about $30.

Yeah, it would be like the PS memorycards.

Maybe, they could make the PS3, so that you could only save gamesaves, on the hd.
Just an idea, what do you think?

(P.S. im writing this from my psp)

[Grandia]

Yeah, it would be like the PS memorycards.

Maybe, they could make the PS3, so that you could only save gamesaves, on the hd.
Just an idea, what do you think?

(P.S. im writing this from my psp)
Exactly. I think that would be a pretty good idea. They could release a small HDD for $<$40 that the majority of people would purchase, and then an 80 Gig HDD for those who want to use the entertainment features of the PS3, etc. etc. etc. So, every PS3 would have a HDD, it just won't be included with the PS3.

[MegaGrid]

People can get involved in the creation of multimedia in PS3. A Linux should be created by people in SONY and distribute it in a HD. The previous attempt with PS2 was not so serious, small clubs were created for PS2 Linux. It was more like custom software created by various sources. Now there is a need for a more serious effort and it should be backed up by SONY. SONY should create a Linux kernel which compiles code optimaly for the CELL processor. So the gcc compiler should efficiently map the software to the hardware, not like PS2 Linux which did not compile the code optimaly. Maybe they can sell it and give proper documentation for developers.
All these people that criticised books in AI Gaming using OpenGL should seriously reconsider their point of views. Gaming and multimedia is a perfect let out for someones creativity. People like me (and I guess these are a lot) are not just going to buy the PS3 just to play games. A PC can be a nice SQL, Web server. For these aspects it is a good choise. If someone is involved in 3d a PC is not a good choise. It is better than nothing I agree but do not tell me it is a good choise. :-)

[xbdestroya]

Have you read this interview yet MegaGrid?

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-expert4/

I think you would find it interesting. :)

Also keep in mind that the whole library of Linux code for Cell IBM has been working on will be open-sourced sometime later this summer.

[MegaGrid]

Thanks for the link.
And yes, there has been some discussion on having MPI ported to the SPEs themselves.... This is music to my ears... :-) I have coded in MPI(Message Passing Interface) and it is a magnificent Parallel programming tool. The Cell is not a SIMD it is a MIMD as it is correctly mentioned, MPI was designed for a MIMD architecture. If you think it standing alone an SPE is a SIMD. I am going to take one step further to what the IBM people told why it makes it a MIMD, it is not just the PPE that makes it a MIMD it is the fact that the SPEs can run independently... ;-)

[csninja]

I believe it. Sony sucks ass. THeyr just the kind of people to make mistakes like this. I dont know why we have to say it(xbox fanboys), 360 will own the PS3.

[xbdestroya]

I believe it. Sony sucks ass. THeyr just the kind of people to make mistakes like this. I dont know why we have to say it(xbox fanboys), 360 will own the PS3.

What is it exactly that you are saying you believe?

The IBM Linux thing or....

???

[Hrama]

Sony sucks ass? Sony makes some of the best electronics in the world. Their stuff (Within the price range that they sell their products) is almost always cutting edge and unique at least to a certain degree. Can Microsoft say they make the best of anything in the world? Windows maybe? I don't think so.

[OzzysCross101]

If Sony dosn't sell the PS3 with an HDD, then, if their online serive is as good as we hope for it to be, they should make certain things that you could want for certain games, not necessarily need- but it would encourage people to buy a PS3 HDD.

Of course, this wouldn't make Sony look good, so they'd have to have the game developers do it and then place any blame on them.

Oh and one more thing:

Hrama, to answer your question: No, Microsoft cannot count Windows in the greatest things in the world that they made because 1. Windows is the complete opposite of great (always has been and always will be). and 2. They can't take alot of credit for actually making it because for the most part, they just used many other people's ideas and apps to make it look better. Plus, their color choices are atrocious. :rant: