Backwards Compatibility: what IS really inside after all?!

[Killing Moon]

Let me just say first that this has to be the most refined Playstation forum that I've EVER been to, and I do plan on staying. I've been observing you guys silently and for awhile now I've only been on the TXB forums due to their more mature nature in comparison to most gamer forums. You guys completely give off the same mature nature (for the most part) and do seem well informed, tech savvy and pretty devoid of any illogical fanboy qualities.

Good fortune to you all.

Now, on the subject matter:
While it may seem a bit short-sighted for right now, considering that I'll be in development pretty soon, I'm going to come from a pure gamer's standpoint. With the backwards compatibility (let's call it 'BC' for short), I'm wondering what the supposed "upgrades" will be. Okay, sure we have the confirmation of much faster loading speeds, especially in comparison to the double-speed ability of the PS2-to-PSOne games. But what else from that?

The PS2 was able to add bilinear filtering for the textures, effectively smoothing them out. However, I still found much, MUCH better results from some of the PSX emulators for the PC. Such as higher resolutions, 32-bit color adding, antialiasing and even higher framerates in certain cases.

To be honest, I've been waiting for MUCH too long to play some of my favorite games with these features, sans a Windows prompt on-screen. With the PS3's amount of power available, I'm hoping for one of two things to happen.

1- we get a COMPLETE BC packages for the PS3. Such as higher resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080p) for all PSOne, PS2 games.
2- someone will program a complete emulator to run these aforementioned features for the PS3 via downloadable content to a memory stick/ HDD.

Like I said, it may be a bit short-sighted considering what's going to happen with gaming technology in the near future. But considering that some of my most favorite titles in gaming history exist on the PSOne (Silent Bomber, Tobal 2, Vagrant Story, Threads of Fate, Alien Ressurection etc. etc.), I'd KILL to see all of them in their best possible resolutions. Plus having all PS2 games with perfect 640x480 + antialiasing added would be sweet.

What do you guys/gals think? Anyone with clues as to what the future holds for PS3 BC?

[xbdestroya]

Well I'll take a stab, though I'm really just crawling around in the dark until we learn whether or not GS and or EE will be present in the machine.

The rumors have been annywhere from using the EE+GS chip as the south bridge, thus allowing for full B/C as well, to other theories involving the GS onboard the RSX somewhere and emulation of the EE on Cell. And who knows, maybe the GS itself can be emulated...? Though the problem with that seems to be the loss of the eDRAM.

To cut to the chase, I've been interested in what effects the PS3 might bring to older PS2 games myself. It seems to me all a matter of whether Cell is going to be able to 'touch' it after frames have been initially rendered. Cpiasminc may have some further insights into it to be honest, so hopefully he'll drop by this thread. :smoke:

[rpgamer_2k5]

Just expect PS1 and PS2 games to look much better on PS3. The PS2 is a very difficult console to tame so expecting all the bells and whistle available on the Bleem-line is a bit out of line. With the RSX being very feature-rich, all games will be given a face-life. In comparison to the PS3 though, these games would just pale in comparison so this feature is probably more handy for RPG or other genres that do not depend on graphics to shine.

[Metal Sphere]

Well, thanks for the compliments. If anything we're simply a bunch of folks like yourself that got fed up with the immaturity in gaming forums and happened to get together. Anyways, on to BC!

There have been several interviews that asked Kutaragi, Hirai and other Sony representatives about BC. The responses ranged from non-answers to something slightly negative. I believe it was Kutaragi who said he wasn't sure if we might see "enhancement" features similar to those on the PS2.

He has, however hinted at the BC being a combination of hardware and software. The PS2's EE and GS are now on one chip, so it's possible that they might put it into the PS3. Along with software emulation, they're attempting to maximize BC.

Who knows, it possible they added even more features than what the PS2 had for it's BC, especially if they want to differentiate themselves from the competition. Using the nostalgia factor, if you will.

@XB: You mean post processing effects?

[xbdestroya]

@XB: You mean post processing effects?

I do... but I'm not sure exactly how it would be implemented so I'm not putting too much into it. Just kind of a 'feel' based off of previous statements from Sony, actually having more to do with the 'upconversion' of standard video content into HD. Could the Cell perform this more or less in real time on normal-def PS2 content? I'm just kind of taking things that have been said and wondering aloud whether or not the same sort of conceptual approach could be applied.

[Metal Sphere]

I do... but I'm not sure exactly how it would be implemented so I'm not putting too much into it. Just kind of a 'feel' based off of previous statements from Sony, actually having more to do with the 'upconversion' of standard video content into HD. Could the Cell perform this more or less in real time on normal-def PS2 content? I'm just kind of taking things that have been said and wondering aloud whether or not the same sort of conceptual approach could be applied.

Heh, you reminded me about that feature. Kutaragi went on about the Cell being able to "refine" standard definition material (actually it was DVDs) into HD material. If that doesn't sound like an artistic description of upconversion, I don't know what is.

As always, it's best to wait and see.

[Killing Moon]

Well, as far as the effects that I've mentioned, I do hope that they are implemented in the end. When I had my original PS2, I must've spent at least 2-3 months just running old games and demos just to see how dramatic the effects were. Some were minor (Threads of Fate, Tekken 3) and some where MAJOR (Alien Ressurection, Deception III).

It just seems like it would complete the package; hopefully they won't half-ass the BC feature and actually think it through this time around. I''ve also heard some people suggest that the lighting could improve for PS2 games to the PS3, which I'm not sure if it's too realistic.

[xbdestroya]

I'm with you Killing Moon, and I think a lot of others are as well; any time your existing library also improves with the launch of new hardware - so much the better, and the cost is that much easier to justify. Still so much Playstation 2 code was written on such a low-level, that I think adding a universal set of effect enhancements may be difficult. I'm no game dev though so I don't know.

If they can add something though, and by that I mean hopefully some AA - among other things - so much the better.

PS - By the way, welcome to the forum! :smoke:

[Killing Moon]

I'm with you Killing Moon, and I think a lot of others are as well; any time your existing library also improves with the launch of new hardware - so much the better, and the cost is that much easier to justify. Still so much Playstation 2 code was written on such a low-level, that I think adding a universal set of effect enhancements may be difficult. I'm no game dev though so I don't know.

If they can add something though, and by that I mean hopefully some AA - among other things - so much the better.

PS - By the way, welcome to the forum! :smoke:

Thanks, man. Glad to be here!!

[cpiasminc]

It is certainly true that completely software emulation (or in this case, it'd probably be more like "simulation") of the hardware would be asking quite a bit much. One of the things that almost every developer does with their PS2 engines is overwrite the microcode and build their own render pipeline for the GS. Emulating the ability to do that would be a complete pain as there are countless possibilities.

I think an EE+GS within the southbridge or on a daughter board + an OS emulator path that switches execution contexts to the southbridge instead of the CELL (which will probably be used only as a memory controller). PS1 emulation may be doable entirely in software, though.

The additional bandwidth may simply enable the same games to be playable in HD that may not have been before. I doubt there would be any sort of "free" enhancements that suddenly make the old games look better. Many of the later games use the models, textures, and lighting that they do specifically because of PS2's unique characteristics. It'd be pretty much impossible to come up with a way to improve *everything*.

[Razor Blade]

Even if Sony just increases resolution, adds Anti Aliasing and some sort of Texture Filtering, that would be marvelous!

One problem is with the HD resolutions - I have a feeling we'd be seeing two black bars on the sides of our screens for those of us who have HDTV's, which kinda blows but is expected.

Really the only problem I can think of is glitches. Even with PC emulation having gone on for over a decade for the PSone alone, there are still problems to this day, mind you Sony knows what it's doing since it developed the hardware, but still it oesn't mean that problems can't arise.

That one issue alone may make Sony want to just do a 'carbon copy' emulation to replicate what the PSone and PS2 can do already and not enhance it.

Let's keep our fingers crossed to have some enhancements and more visual improvements in our old games for the PS3!

[cpiasminc]

It would all depend on just how powerful that combination die can really get. I don't know of any field info on that (PSTwo is not really a case study of that aspect). The fact that on-die communications between EE+GS+VUs can be that much faster and lower latency in addition to the fact that it will probably use the faster system RAM (XDR) may not, by itself, account for the difference between SD and HD resolution. I think you'd still need to boost the clock speed of the components and do a little repathing in things that emulate what was previously motherboard functions.

[xbdestroya]

Thanks for the breakdown Cpi - so really the role Cell itself would play in the above scenarios would be limited basically to acting as the memory controller for our new 'virtual' PS2 system. I think if the EE+GS (perhaps with a higher clock) were able to pull off a move to higher resolutions within a simulated environment, that's almost just as cool. If people were able to enjoy some 'free' SSAA anti-aliasing due to a downconversion of newly HD content on their old games, how could they be anything but thrilled?

[Killing Moon]

Well obviously I'm not expecting anything super-improved, such as elimination of the PSOne break-clipping and higher resolution textures. These features are completely locked within the code due to the programming methods used around the hardware of yesteryear. However, upping the resolution for the PSOne/PS2 shouldn't be difficult at all, let alone adding some antialiasing across the board.

I used to run Gran Turismo 2 and Ridge Racer Type 4 on the epsxe PC emulator awhile back and even at basic 640x480 w/ 32-bit color,the games looked gorgeous. Heightening the resolution only made them even better (and my eyes hurt in some cases) and for the most part, antialiasing wasn't even necessary at higher resolutions beyond 640x480.

At the very least, I do hope that someone out there creates a proper PSOne/PS2 emulation program for the PS3 to download. That would really make up for whatever out-of-the-box BC shortcoming that we'll have to face down the road.