Information from Factor 5 on "Lair"

[Jasonps3]

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=6773

Taming The Dragon:
Next-Generation Asset Creation for PS3

The second floor of Sony's Metreon Center in the center of San Francisco was bustling with talk of Katamari Damacy and Donkey Kong as game industry professionals and a few not-so-professionals funneled past a pair of turnstiles into the three-screened Action Theater for the latest IGDA meeting and mixer. Matthias Worch, designer and technical art director for Factor 5, was the speaker of the evening. He was armed with an updated version of his technical lecture from the Game Developers Conference this past March, one that now discusses art creation for Factor 5's still somewhat mysterious PlayStation 3 title Lair.




Dragons abound in Lair.

Fundamentally, this was another opportunity to explain the value of digital maquettes and to demonstrate the rendering software Worch is most fond of. This seemed to go over fairly well, as Worch's tools are powerful (and indeed elicited constant gasps of admiration from the audience) and he has a number of sound arguments for at least considering maquettes as an alternative modeling technique.

This IGDA event all falls under the general topic of adjusting to the technical needs of next-generation technology. One senses some serendipity, in that these needs seem to have come about at just the right time to justify Worch's arguments – possibly not that the methods were set up to address those needs. But, as Worch seems fond of arguing – whatever works!

Resolution Conflict

The general goals, as Worch would have it, are in broadening the options your art department has to call upon, in "opening up the normal mapping workflow" (to be explained below), and – relatedly – in training.

As far as maquettes go, the benefits are notable: physical props are invaluable for communicating art direction; there's a relative availability of traditional modeling talent, compared to purely digital modelers; that the prepping of maquettes can be a valuable training tool for new artists or to help the existing art department in adjusting to the demands of next-generation modeling; and that if done correctly, maquettes are just as cheap and fast to produce as purely digital models.

Worch explained the difference between three models of scanners: the handheld Polhemus FastSCAN, which should be decent for general use; the Cyberware M15 that he spoke so highly of in March, and the ultra high-res XYZ RGB proprietary scanner. As he compared the results of each in sequence, the raise in quality was obvious. The XYZ scanner, according to Worch, picks up detail down to 100 microns in size, which he described as smaller than the point of a needle. Whereas the Cyberware was sufficient for the last generation, Worch explained, the next generation is at the point where the added detail from an XYZ scan will actually come in handy – at least for the initial model.

The Worch of Both Worlds

The benefit of a purely digital model, Worch said, was that, due to the way they're built up from nothing (much the opposite approach from scan prepping), one generally has a low-res version already handy; with scans, you have to build one. The good thing is that this is a simple process, which will serve well as a tutorial for adjusting members of the art department. Worch then demonstrated the downscaling of high-res scan models to game models using Cyberware's CySlice program. As part of the process he captured "normal maps" (basically dithered-down wraparounds of the high-res original) to apply to the low-res model, to preserve as much detail as possible.

For some contrast, he next loaded up Zbrush to demonstrate the manner in which digital models are built up and refined. For an added zing, he showed how some mapping information he acquired from a maquette could be applied to a purely digital model, to blend things together and add in some extra detail.

Watching the Show Dragon

The thing most people probably came for, though, was the dragons. Worch had little to say about the actual game he has been working on – now titled Lair – though he used the models all throughout the lecture. One of the key models was a maquette (built by Peter Konig at Massive Black, the man behind the Dragonheart models); another, a digital render. The final version used in the game, Worch said, was a blend of the best parts from each: a practical body and limbs, and a digital head, tail, and wings.

He played a recent extremely high-resolution trailer in real-time, occasionally pausing to swing the camera around or turn on or off various effects. To be fair, the scene in question was clearly a cut-scene, calculated to show off just how many polygons the PS3 can throw around; it's still a lot of polygons, though.

Each model, Worch claimed, contained somewhere between 100,000 and 170,000 triangles. Each had a bunch of other special maps and lighting applied, and the main character was built up with "over ten textures". He compared this to an estimated 10,000 for characters in Gears of War and other recent high-res games. The high-res models, meanwhile, that got dithered down to produce the in-game models, ran up around 5,000,000 triangles.

Lasting Impression

It was abundantly clear, from this IGDA-hosted presentation, how art departments will need to adapt for the PlayStation 3 and other next-gen consoles, to compete at this level of detail and sheer muscle power. Strictly on the level of brawn, models like this are basically unprecedented outside of feature films. This does not, of course, address the issue of how much detail is actually necessary for (or will even be visible to) the player, or what concepts this type of power will enable that were impossible to realize before. But it's certainly pretty.

[xbdestroya]

Yeah, definitely awesome.

[tazz3]

i wish they show this trailer to the public.
the PS3 is so powerhouse

[Saibo]

100,000 triangles for the low res mesh, NICE :)

the max triangle count for Zbrush 2.0,which is what his company is probably using is 5 million triangles. the normal map itself doesnt matter, in that it can be as high as you want(5-20 million), but for it be most effective, the low res mesh should be high enough to round off the shilloute(spelling?), to compliment each other. In this case, 100,000 triangles is very high for a low res version, couple that with a normal map(its look beautiful). In contrast, to say the blockly looking character from Gears of War, which have low res model, in the range of 5,000 triangle. Thats the reason, why Lair's dragons look more detail, than GOW character or even MGS4 characters.

Hope that make sense ;)

Its refreshing to see them using 3D scanners to get data from a clay maquettes, but i personally can live without it, mainly due to the fact that you can get sculpt hella fast in ZB. But watever floats his boat ;).

BTW, the max triangle count for Zbrush 2.5 well be 14 million:

http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=28498

[IEatFriedPikmin]

soo.... i may be behind but, are they just developing for PS3?

[Saibo]

soo.... i may be behind but, are they just developing for PS3?


For this game, i think so. I just dont see the XBOX 360 doing 100,000 triangle count,character ingame in any practical manner. correct me if im wrong(i dont keep up with its development).

[Domination]

For this game, i think so. I just dont see the XBOX 360 doing 100,000 triangle count,character ingame in any practical manner. correct me if im wrong(i dont keep up with its development).

The most I've heard on the 360 is a single PRG3 car able to support 80,000 polygons; 40,000 inside and 40,000 outside. But, that's a little different from triangles.

[Illmatic]

The most I've heard on the 360 is a single PRG3 car able to support 80,000 polygons; 40,000 inside and 40,000 outside. But, that's a little different from triangles.


I'm pretty sure you would know this, but for those that don't, a trianlge is still a ploygon (3 vertices as opposed to 4). Anyway, i'm not completely sure on this but i thought when it comes to games all 4 sided Polys are converted to triangles, can someone confirm this? and if so, for what reason?

Here's a pic of a car in PGR3, they're using traingles also.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/Stillmaitik/mf18006003mr.jpg

[lip2lip]

at 80 polys pgr3 sounds roughly half the complexity of lair when using 170 triangles; but I would argue because of more animations in lair models, it would clearly be much more than double the processing to produce.

racing using a sold car model does not sound very complicated, not a good comparision.

[Illmatic]

I just thought about the PS meeting footage of 'Lair' (which is slightly different than the TGS video) where there are hundreds of dragons on screen, are we supposed to believe that each one is modeled from 100,000 - 170,000 polys each http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/Stillmaitik/icon_eek.gif

[Danji]

That would make the PS3 a beast! (pun intended)

[threepac3]

For this game, i think so. I just dont see the XBOX 360 doing 100,000 triangle count,character ingame in any practical manner. correct me if im wrong(i dont keep up with its development).

To be fair he was comparing a stable in-game engine [GOW] to a real-time performance demo (pretty much), so who's to say that the final game will be able push out 100,000 - 150,000 for each character.

[Glacier]

Factor 5 moved all its current development projects to next gen. then they shortly announced that they will support ps3 exclusively. they have to be mighty impresses with ps3 compared to the rest to make such a commitment at such a time. i know of no other team that announced full exclusivity.

another thing, u can't compare car models to character ones. gt4 has +10k polys for each car. yet normally we only see 5k for characters (note that rumbe roses used +10k).
having said that, lair still has a much higher poly count. that says alot.

[woundingchaney]

I really dont see why the 360 couldnt push 100,000 to 150k models. The power is there in both the cpu and the gpu. Simply because Proj Goth racing doesnt use that many is in no way an indication that it cant be done.

[Glacier]

well, having one of the best looking 360 titles (GoW) running on around 5k polys per character isn't that encouraging...

what about 'the must-have game for 360'-PDZ? its models look like a joke.

[woundingchaney]

well, having one of the best looking 360 titles (GoW) running on around 5k polys per character isn't that encouraging...

what about 'the must-have game for 360'-PDZ? its models look like a joke.
I must say that I wasnt overly impressed with the character modeling in PDO, but overall I really like the look of the game.

Now since when do any of us care how many polygons are in a character model. The character models in GOW are some of the best I have ever seen (outside of MGS4), so for me to sit here and say "Those damn models have only 5k builds well they arent worth a shit", is completely ridiculous.


The main point was I dont see as to why the 360 couldnt do the models in Lair of course Im not a dev, so I really dont know, but at the same time I dont see the 360 being unable to do it.

[Illmatic]

I must say that I wasnt overly impressed with the character modeling in PDO, but overall I really like the look of the game.

Now since when do any of us care how many polygons are in a character model. The character models in GOW are some of the best I have ever seen (outside of MGS4), so for me to sit here and say "Those damn models have only 5k builds well they arent worth a shit", is completely ridiculous.


The main point was I dont see as to why the 360 couldnt do the models in Lair of course Im not a dev, so I really dont know, but at the same time I dont see the 360 being unable to do it.


I notice the poly count a fair bit while playing, i hate blocky characters/enviroments, so higher poly count the better in my book.

It's already known the RSX can push more Polys than the Xenos so i doubt it could handle hundreds of characters at that level of detail, i find it hard to believe PS3 can, but it's been said.

[Saibo]

The most I've heard on the 360 is a single PRG3 car able to support 80,000 polygons; 40,000 inside and 40,000 outside. But, that's a little different from triangles.

Actually, they are the same thing, when a developer use the word "polygon" he is using it lossy, most of the time he is refering to triangle count. Because, every game engine i know of, always tesselate/turns the mesh into triangles in realtime. Anyway, just keep in mind for future reference polygons= triangles always.

So its 80,000 triangles for PRG3 racing
and 100,000 - 170,000 triangles for Lair.

PS3 is realling starting to scream, NEXT GEN to me now, first Koei mention characters at 150,000 triangles,and now Factor5 at 100 -170 K, see the trend here? :splitspin


To be fair he was comparing a stable in-game engine [GOW] to a real-time performance demo (pretty much), so who's to say that the final game will be able push out 100,000 - 150,000 for each character.

I kinda disagree with that, the same could be said about MGS4 tech demo at TGS, it wasnt gameplay par say, but it was running off a realtime engine. Im not programmer(im a 3D artist), but i assume the particles, rendering, mesh transformation,etc(anything visual) would account for a good deal of the system resource as it is, so adding AI and physic wont nessecarly(spelling?) require more CPU resource, than what is left over? In short, i think what they(Lair, MGS4)have so far, can only get better visually, where as something like GOW is pretty set in stone(wont inmprove, visually). I dont see GOW pushing 10K triangle characters anytime soon, seriously. Plus both Lair/MGS4 arent running on final development kit, GOW is(or close to it) , i believe?

So IMHO, i dont see XBOX 360 doing those kinda numbers, not with GOW at least, since its a multiplatform engine/game. Now if XBOX 360 had a exclusive game, we could use that to test the bar between PS3/XBOX 360. Isnt PGR3 exclusive and own my MS?

PGR3 80,000 triangles
Lair 100,000 - 170,000 triangles

Difference of 20,000 - 90,000 triangles between the 2 exclusive titles. from a artist standpoint thats ALOT, you'll see a visually difference ingame. Games on the PS3 well look smoothier, less blocky compare to the XBOX 360.

[woundingchaney]

I notice the poly count a fair bit while playing, i hate blocky characters/enviroments, so higher poly count the better in my book.

It's already known the RSX can push more Polys than the Xenos so i doubt it could handle hundreds of characters at that level of detail, i find it hard to believe PS3 can, but it's been said.


Yes that may be true but there is still the efficiency ratio, Xenos is reported to reach about 95 percent efficiency (although I think that is just a tech estimate).

[nemesis121]

For 80,000 triangles it looks as good as any thing seen on PS3.
http://rapidshare.de/files/5962781/pgr3x05gp1.wmv.html (http://rapidshare.de/files/5962781/pgr3x05gp1.wmv.html)


Everyone on all forums thinks that they know it all, but when it's all said and done the proof will be the games, so far PS3 has no playable games and ALL PS fanboys believe that MGS4 is real gameplay, because they were told so, until i see it for my own 2 eyes then MGS4 or KZ2 are just pre render footage.

[rpgamer_2k5]

We don't even what RSX is, so that efficiency ratio might not tell us much.

To be frank, I have a feeling that the PS3 is much eassier to develop on then the Xbox 360. This is why the PS3 is able to pull-off much more superior visuals, even though the PS3 SDKs are much more incomplete vs Xbox 360 counterpart AND were distributed much later. The Xbox 360 will probably look better later on... or there really is a gap akin to PS2 and Xbox. I'm more inclined to believe that, with this news.

Sony was holding back at TGS.

[woundingchaney]

We don't even what RSX is, so that efficiency ratio might not tell us much.

To be frank, I have a feeling that the PS3 is much eassier to develop on then the Xbox 360. This is why the PS3 is able to pull-off much more superior visuals, even though the PS3 SDKs are much more incomplete vs Xbox 360 counterpart AND were distributed much later. The Xbox 360 will probably look better later on... or there really is a gap akin to PS2 and Xbox. I'm more inclined to believe that, with this news.

Sony was holding back at TGS.
Since when have you ever known Sony to hold back.

Nearly every statement there is the opposite of what little we know from devs.

[Glacier]

yes, PGR looks good. it isn't great but it is good. the question is what about all the other titles? GOW looks good in pictures, but when it starts moving..well, u know the rest. pcs today can do everything shown on 360. if i can play that quality today, why call it next-gen? u can simply say 360 is a new gaming pc...

and i have to reiterate; PDZ looks like a joke. it is the worst looking title shown. hell it looks even bad as a current gen game. this is the title they spent 5 years on making? don't make me laugh.

[woundingchaney]

yes, PGR looks good. it isn't great but it is good. the question is what about all the other titles? GOW looks good in pictures, but when it starts moving..well, u know the rest. pcs today can do everything shown on 360. if i can play that quality today, why call it next-gen? u can simply say 360 is a new gaming pc...

and i have to reiterate; PDZ looks like a joke. it is the worst looking title shown. hell it looks even bad as a current gen game. this is the title they spent 5 years on making? don't make me laugh.


Well once again what playable games on the PS3 have you seen that are leagues ahead of current pc titles.

Keep in mind that PDO was primarily built for the original xbox and then ported over to the 360, also many gaming mags and reporters are quite impressed with the game (I understand that it is really opinion here).
PGR looks great, but perhaps my standards do not mimick yours and how can you belittle GOW when its running on a single thread at a 60 percent build.

The current games we are seeing where built on hardware vastly different from the 360 and many games are just ports of titles on the 360, where as Im not pleased by this it doesnt really give us any idea of the capabilties of the 360.

[nemesis121]

Woundingchaney man you are good, I have been here before you, and you can still post with these guys, 90% of the posters on this board is blinded by there faith for PS3, posting on a PS board is like walking up to a Priest and telling him that god doesn't not exist, of course the priest is gonna think that you are the devil, in the same respect that these guys will think that you are a fanboy because you don't see it there way.

I gave up these boards long time ago, I respect there opinions, but some of these gys need to look into the mirror and ask themselves did he really believe that lie they just wrote. Keep up the good work woundingchaney, the community needs more open minded gamers.

[Glacier]

that isn't my problem. i don't want excuses why i should by a so called 'next-gen console' just to play graphically poor ports. 360 is a month away. what u see is what you'll get.

GOW is nothing special. the only thing good in it are the buildings, but there isn't anythig new since sweeny is demonstrating ue3 everywhere and showed buildings that are identicle on pc today.

you say PDZ looks visually good? that it 'looks' impressive? check out all the sites and thier reaction from it on a visual base. go check 1up and see what they have to say about it. even the no.1 xbox fanboys of all time -Teamxbox- are hard pressed to say it looks visually great. they keep talking about the shrunk down online play and what not. or will you bring up the 'it is all about gameplay' argument now? if u do, we can compare 360 and mobile phone games since gameplay is the topic- let alone current and past gen consoles.

another thing is even if ps3 didn't exist, 360 still looks lackluster.

[Illmatic]

Everyone on all forums thinks that they know it all, but when it's all said and done the proof will be the games, so far PS3 has no playable games and ALL PS fanboys believe that MGS4 is real gameplay, because they were told so, until i see it for my own 2 eyes then MGS4 or KZ2 are just pre render footage.


Umm....where have you been? Check the MGS4 thread for the vid where Kojima proves the trailer was real time.


Actually, i'm a really nice guy so...........here :spiral:

http://zdmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/1UP/mgs4_kojima_realtime_demo_quick.zip

Enjoy.

[woundingchaney]

Woundingchaney man you are good, I have been here before you, and you can still post with these guys, 90% of the posters on this board is blinded by there faith for PS3, posting on a PS board is like walking up to a Priest and telling him that god doesn't not exist, of course the priest is gonna think that you are the devil, in the same respect that these guys will think that you are a fanboy because you don't see it there way.

I gave up these boards long time ago, I respect there opinions, but some of these gys need to look into the mirror and ask themselves did he really believe that lie they just wrote. Keep up the good work woundingchaney, the community needs more open minded gamers.
Thank you for the praises.

Really this board is very understanding (for the most part), and many of the members have an open mind. What you do see is quite a bit of MS bashing without comments directed towards Sony for doing essentially the same things. I realize that this is a PS3 board and I respect that, however, blind faith in any company or brand name is ridiculous particularly in this industry (gaming). The main view found in this forum that I dont agree with is that the PS3 is going to be leagues ahead of the 360 (I cant see where there is sufficient proof to confirm this). There are times where I feel that many of my comment may verge on trolling or fanboyism, but the members of this forum are very understanding and open-minded which is what makes this one of the best PS3 forums (or any forum for that matter), I have ever posted at. ;-]

[rpgamer_2k5]

Since when have you ever known Sony to hold back.

Nearly every statement there is the opposite of what little we know from devs.
Is it just me or wasn't there an article posted on one of these threads stating that Sony didn't want the PS3 to interfere with the PS2 (cash cow) and the young PSP? The PS3 was held back at TGS; you're getting a little too defensive these days and nemesis if that post of yors was directed to me as well, it wouldn't matter at all. This is a PS3 forum, except a few to be inclined towards the PS3, and with much of the specification and the game visuals unveiled---Many are expecting more. :)

[woundingchaney]

Umm....where have you been? Check the MGS4 thread for the vid where Kojima proves the trailer was real time.


Actually, i'm a really nice guy so...........here :spiral:

http://zdmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/1UP/mgs4_kojima_realtime_demo_quick.zip

Enjoy.


A cutscene is not playable, there is an arguement that the game could look just as good as the scene but that isnt a fact (yet). The only playable demo I can think of would be the demo of, damn cant remember it, the game with the big robots based on a cartoon.

[Illmatic]

Actually people, this topic is about Factor 5's next gen project 'Lair' !!


So Lets move on now....


Edit: To clarify the above post. He said it was pre-rendered footage, that's what i was refering too.

[Glacier]

i don't know what you are talking about nemesis. you may have a fanboy problem, but i don't. i don't see wounding or anyother like him that share a different viewpoint than me as being a fanboy. not every has to agree with you 100% and those that don't are automatically fanboys. i call flamers, trollers and your generall ass a pathetic fanboy.

i enjoy discussing different viewpoints. if there isn't any differences, what is there to discuss?

[Grandia]

To be frank, I have a feeling that the PS3 is much eassier to develop on then the Xbox 360.
Many people disagree with you.

[woundingchaney]

Is it just me or wasn't there an article posted on one of these threads stating that Sony didn't want the PS3 to interfere with the PS2 (cash cow) and the young PSP? The PS3 was held back at TGS; you're getting a little too defensive these days and nemesis if that post of yors was directed to me as well, it wouldn't matter at all. This is a PS3 forum, except a few to be inclined towards the PS3, and with much of the specification and the game visuals unveiled---Many are expecting more. :)

Yes there was an article posted, however there has been articles posted on nearly every possible thing under the sun. 8-)

As far as me being defensive, Im just stating my views and standpoints I apologize if they come off harsh. I think many of your views are overly pro sony but Im a firm believer that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I respect that you are often capable of prividing the reasoning behind your views. :cheers:

[Danielhq]

A cutscene is not playable, there is an arguement that the game could look just as good as the scene but that isnt a fact (yet). The only playable demo I can think of would be the demo of, damn cant remember it, the game with the big robots based on a cartoon.

Well I remember some very similar discussions about the MGS2 trailer. Did it turn out the same ingame as in the trailer? Yes.
Also remember that MGS4 where running in real-time on "incomplete" dev-kits, so I am not having any doubts about the actual game looking that good. I even think it is possible for it to look even better.

[woundingchaney]

that isn't my problem. i don't want excuses why i should by a so called 'next-gen console' just to play graphically poor ports. 360 is a month away. what u see is what you'll get.

GOW is nothing special. the only thing good in it are the buildings, but there isn't anythig new since sweeny is demonstrating ue3 everywhere and showed buildings that are identicle on pc today.

you say PDZ looks visually good? that it 'looks' impressive? check out all the sites and thier reaction from it on a visual base. go check 1up and see what they have to say about it. even the no.1 xbox fanboys of all time -Teamxbox- are hard pressed to say it looks visually great. they keep talking about the shrunk down online play and what not. or will you bring up the 'it is all about gameplay' argument now? if u do, we can compare 360 and mobile phone games since gameplay is the topic- let alone current and past gen consoles.

another thing is even if ps3 didn't exist, 360 still looks lackluster.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/657/657118p1.html

Anyone can find an article praising or demeaning a game. :)

[Glacier]

plus, if u want sony bashing and a blind eye toward ms, look at the xbox forum. check nintendo's forum and you'll be amazed what those mario fans can type!

@ wounding; i enjoy you comments.

"Originally Posted by rpgamer_2k5
To be frank, I have a feeling that the PS3 is much eassier to develop on then the Xbox 360."

actually, the more i hear and see from ps3 the more i come to believe so. it only took 2 months to make visuals on ps3 look better than anything 360 is still showing months after (referring to e3 footage like ff7).

[woundingchaney]

Well I remember some very similar discussions about the MGS2 trailer. Did it turn out the same ingame as in the trailer? Yes.
Also remember that MGS4 where running in real-time on "incomplete" dev-kits, so I am not having any doubts about the actual game looking that good. I even think it is possible for it to look even better.

To be honest I agree with you. I just made a statement concerning that a cutscene is not playable footage. :banned2:

[rpgamer_2k5]

The main view found in this forum that I dont agree with is that the PS3 is going to be leagues ahead of the 360 (I cant see where there is sufficient proof to confirm this). Woundingchaney, do something better. Prove that the PS3 is equal to the Xbox 360.

Come on, we got developers stating that the PS3 will be over the Xbox 360 in so many threads on PSINEXT.

Comparison between Xbox's top of the line title, GOW and Factor 5's PS3 game:
http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=46605

Another:
http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=46471

Too lazy to look elsewhere; you have been here long enough so you know that evidence does exist. In addition, MS is claiming that the Xbox 360 is "about the same" as the PS3. This is a very defensive stance; I always had an impression that FLOPs didn't matter, Cell is redundant as a whole, and Xenos is much superior than the Geforce 7800GTX (overclocked to 500Mhz), dubbed RSX.

To be frank, the Cell is superior to the XeCPU, we even had Xbox warriors from other forums venturing these boards to prove otherwise. The Cell can manhandle the top of the line GPUs of even today, it would be running around 600 million if only used for graphics. Just throw the RSX into the equation, it is only going to get better. :)

[Glacier]

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/657/657118p1.html

Anyone can find an article praising or demeaning a game. :)

i specifically said 'visual' and 'looking' to avoid this point. again, i ain't talking about gameplay, modes, weapons, etc. i am specifically talking about the game's visuals.

[rpgamer_2k5]

Many people disagree with you. Who cares about those people. Factor 5's Lair is already proving the point, along with many others. Many can continue to claim that PS3 is a difficult dinosaurus, but with the number of demos coming out that feature impressive visuals (developed on early SDKs); it's not proving their claims.

A cutscene is not playable, there is an arguement that the game could look just as good as the scene but that isnt a fact (yet). The only playable demo I can think of would be the demo of, damn cant remember it, the game with the big robots based on a cartoon. Wait a second. We discussed this earlier.

Read Domination's post:
You seem to have missed my entire point. Earlier, it was stated that MG3's cut scenes did not match the gameplay. The reason behind it? One was more fluid than the other. Therefore, the PS3 could follow the same suit as far as the MG4 trailer is concerned; meaning, it being inferior visually.

What I'm saying is fluidity has little to do with an ingame build looking the same as a cut scene visually. It's a poor comparison to use to differ the two. My point was, when the AI takes over, nothing changes the way the game looks. Animation is something else entirely different, which makes it moot in this case, especially since that was the PS2 and not the PS3.
http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=46184&page=4
This isn't a controversy, developers are not going to waste their time dispelling such rediculous assumptions. The objects in the cutscenes are going to be identical to those in-game. It will look the same; infact It's pretty obvious that animations/physics will be very fluid this time. With games like Half-life 2 out, we need to think above that game, not PS2 games.

Well I remember some very similar discussions about the MGS2 trailer. Did it turn out the same ingame as in the trailer? Yes. Excellent point. :) This is the case since the FMVs in MGS are just scripted scenes rendered off the realtime engine, it would obviously look identical. People need to stop bring up such weak arguments, it's so weak.

Yes there was an article posted, however there has been articles posted on nearly every possible thing under the sun. Atleast take some time and post the links. When you do, ask yourself, Have ANY of the demos for the Xbox 360 support the claims?

[woundingchaney]

Well who is being defensive now RPG.

Yes there are devs out there singing praises for the PS3, there are also devs out their uplifting the 360.

Too lazy to look elsewhere; you have been here long enough so you know that evidence does exist. In addition, MS is claiming that the Xbox 360 is "about the same" as the PS3. This is a very defensive stance; I always had an impression that FLOPs didn't matter, Cell is redundant as a whole, and Xenos is much superior than the Geforce 7800GTX (overclocked to 500Mhz), dubbed RSX.

To be frank, the Cell is superior to the XeCPU, we even had Xbox warriors from other forums venturing these boards to prove otherwise. The Cell can manhandle the top of the line GPUs of even today, it would be running around 600 million if only used for graphics. Just throw the RSX into the equation, it is only going to get better.

I have been around long enough to know of the threads you mentioned and remember them. You as well have been around long enough to know that the 360 has its advantages as well. Never once have I said that the 360 cpu was more pwerful than the cell, all I have ever done is questioned the overall efficiency of the cell in use for a gaming console (particularly the spes), but I also believe that I state it is a powerful processor. Im aware of many different articles posted on this topic (you can post them if you feel the need).

This isn't a controversy, developers are not going to waste their time dispelling such rediculous assumptions. The objects in the cutscenes are going to be identical to those in-game.

Well this is being rehashed yet again, cutscenes do not necessarily mimick in game graphics, once again I dont think this is the case in MGS4. What is it you want me to say here?


Excellent point. This is the case since the FMVs in MGS are just scripted scenes rendered off the realtime engine, it would obviously look identical. People need to stop bring up such weak arguments, it's so weak.

There you go.


Atleast take some time and post the links. When you do, ask yourself, Have ANY of the demos for the Xbox 360 support the claims?

Who are you to tell me how to post?

Woundingchaney, do something better. Prove that the PS3 is equal to the Xbox 360.

Prove to who, you? Once again, I think you are entitled to your own opinions. All I said is that I didnt think that there is ample evidence to confirm that the PS3 is leagues ahead of the 360, thats my standpoint. Its not as if I blindly stating opinions as facts here. Im sure that one console will out perform the other, but not by the margin you make it out to be.

[woundingchaney]

i specifically said 'visual' and 'looking' to avoid this point. again, i ain't talking about gameplay, modes, weapons, etc. i am specifically talking about the game's visuals.

I understand and in the article I linked they praised the games visuals. 8-)

[rpgamer_2k5]

Well who is being defensive now RPG.
I know, I am, right after your posts pertaining to particulars that we covered in the past.

Yes there are devs out there singing praises for the PS3, there are also devs out their uplifting the 360. Pertaining to power? Please provide me the source. All the programmers that support the Xbox 360 claim that is superior because the PS3 is too complicated.

Never once have I said that the 360 cpu was more pwerful than the cell, all I have ever done is questioned the overall efficiency of the cell in use for a gaming console (particularly the spes), but I also believe that I state it is a powerful processor. [...] I have never claimed you have. The SPEs are processors (like the PPE), it will be able to do both floating and fixed-point operations effectively. There are fixed-point and floating-point hardware built onto the SPE. This issue is now old, the Cell will be as efficient as any other CPU in fixed-point operations and is a lot more flexible as a floating-point processor too. :)

Well this is being rehashed yet again, cutscenes do not necessarily mimick in game graphics, once again I dont think this is the case in MGS4. What is it you want me to say here? Those games use a seperate cutscene engine. They are usually found in RPGs, with the battle, quest, and cutscene engines. Most of the FPS, action games, and so on use the realtime engine to render FMVs.

When I said:
Excellent point. This is the case since the FMVs in MGS are just scripted scenes rendered off the realtime engine, it would obviously look identical. People need to stop bring up such weak arguments, it's so weak.Umm..isn't Project Gotham City racing scripted? Is it fake too? Again, this is a weak argument. Scripted does not mean superior visuals, I swear, wasn't it proven in that thread that animations has nothing to do with the graphics. Whether MGS4 has crappy animations or not, it is going to look very pretty. That Onimusha-esque game published by Sony (forgot the name) has impressive graphics, but the animations were not fluid, hence the game did not play well. That game did have the graphics, even though the animations were weak. Two different fields, if MGS4 falters in such a manner then it will fail. Right now, it is fair to claim that MGS4 will look even better since this game was rendered off the prototype SDK.

Who are you to tell me how to post? I will tell you of the errors you continue to state. We have gone through this several times; MGS4 cutscene has not been proven as a unrealistic visual representation of the game. You continue to hold such views and it is getting really irritating seeing it posted constantly. I have a feeling that you do feel that most of the PS3 demos are pre-rendered, claims that have never been backed up.

Prove to who, you? Once again, I think you are entitled to your own opinions. All I said is that I didnt think that there is ample evidence to confirm that the PS3 is leagues ahead of the 360, thats my standpoint. Its not as if I blindly stating opinions as facts here. Im sure that one console will out perform the other, but not by the margin you make it out to be.
I could care less if I am entitled to my opinion or not; what I claim is not some philosophical claim. It is based on evidence that are presented by sources and in discussions in this board. We have many intelligent users who have effectively proven my points, and I simply draw those posts to this thread. :)

There is ample amount of evidence.

1. PS3 demos > Xbox 360 counterpart.
2. Developers stating that the PS3 is more powerful.
3. Pro-Xbox 360 developers stating that the PS3 is a difficult hardware rather than being graphically inferior.
4. Microsot claiming that the Xbox 360 will have visuals equal to the PS3, even though ATI claimed that the Xbox 360 will have a visual edge because of the Xenos and MS following claim that the Cell is unnecessary. Another claim before this, went something like: "Who needs FLOPs? Who needs power?".

I state my claims, after I see enough evidence. Many here are stating what they think, without any.

[woundingchaney]

I know, I am, right after your posts pertaining to particulars that we covered in the past.

Pertaining to power? Please provide me the source. All the programmers that support the Xbox 360 claim that is superior because the PS3 is too complicated.

I have never claimed you have. The SPEs are processors (like the PPE), it will be able to do both floating and fixed-point operations effectively. There are fixed-point and floating-point hardware built onto the SPE. This issue is now old, the Cell will be as efficient as any other CPU in fixed-point operations and is a lot more flexible as a floating-point processor too. :)

Those games use a seperate cutscene engine. They are usually found in RPGs, with the battle, quest, and cutscene engines. Most of the FPS, action games, and so on use the realtime engine to render FMVs.

When I said:
Umm..isn't Project Gotham City racing scripted? Is it fake too? Again, this is a weak argument. Scripted does not mean superior visuals, I swear, wasn't it proven in that thread that animations has nothing to do with the graphics. Whether MGS4 has crappy animations or not, it is going to look very pretty. That Onimusha-esque game published by Sony (forgot the name) has impressive graphics, but the animations were not fluid, hence the game did not play well. That game did have the graphics, even though the animations were weak. Two different fields, if MGS4 falters in such a manner then it will fail. Right now, it is fair to claim that MGS4 will look even better since this game was rendered off the prototype SDK.

I will tell you of the errors you continue to state. We have gone through this several times; MGS4 cutscene has not been proven as a unrealistic visual representation of the game. You continue to hold such views and it is getting really irritating seeing it posted constantly. I have a feeling that you do feel that most of the PS3 demos are pre-rendered, claims that have never been backed up.


I could care less if I am entitled to my opinion or not; what I claim is not some philosophical claim. It is based on evidence that are presented by sources and in discussions in this board. We have many intelligent users who have effectively proven my points, and I simply draw those posts to this thread. :)

There is ample amount of evidence.

1. PS3 demos > Xbox 360 counterpart.
2. Developers stating that the PS3 is more powerful.
3. Pro-Xbox 360 developers stating that the PS3 is a difficult hardware rather than being graphically inferior.
4. Microsot claiming that the Xbox 360 will have visuals equal to the PS3, even though ATI claimed that the Xbox 360 will have a visual edge because of the Xenos and MS following claim that the Cell is unnecessary. Another claim before this, went something like: "Who needs FLOPs? Who needs power?".

I state my claims, after I see enough evidence. Many here are stating what they think, without any.

Your evidence is little more than your views on certain controversy. We do not prove anything at this forum, it is simply a place for debate. You seem to take any controversy and call it evidence. The PS3 may indeed be more powerful than the 360, but are you saying that a first gen PS3 titles is going to be more powerful than what is capable of the 360. Once again I look for power difference to reasonably minimal (I could be wrong, I personally dont know and I find it hard to believe that you do). I wasnt aware that we had any cross platform titles that we could compare. Yes, many devs are saying that the PS3 has superior specs in certain areas, however, your also hearing devs speak of the difficulty in harnessing that power. It something that I believe will be overcome with time.

Oh please lets not try to guess what I think as to I do not guess what you think.

PGR3 is showing a gameplay trailer, not pre rendered, not cut scene, but gameplay, how do I know it is gameplay well I suppose quite simply I dont, but if that is the case how do you know that the Sony trailers are even being done on the PS3? Now simply I find it hard to believe you have never played an action game that has cutscene superior to the ingame graphics, even though I repeatedly state I dont consider this the case in MGS4 you insist of stringing out the debate. What is it you want me to say that cut scenes mimick in game graphics, sorry I dont believe that to be true in all cases. Im aware of the games you speak of that use different engines for the cutscenes and I can assure you thats not what Im talking about. You can ramble and post all you like, I simply dont find it to be true, yet you insist that we prove it right here at these forums, well perhaps we should invite all the knowledgable minds to witness our awe inspiring debates.

Once again your acting as if the cell's architecture has been proven in games and that it is old news. Perhaps I am wrong and Im not quite updated on my reading, it is still to be determined how efficient the spes are at differnet calculations. Thats the foundation of my statement nothing more nothing less. I believe it to be a powerful processor and has its advantages, but Im quite sure it has its disadvantages as well. I think both consoles have their strengths and weaknesses as I have pointed out in the past. We have many intelligent users who have effectively proven my points, and I simply draw those posts to this thread. (sarcasm)

:-) Have a nice day.

[Saibo]

I'm pretty sure you would know this, but for those that don't, a trianlge is still a ploygon (3 vertices as opposed to 4). Anyway, i'm not completely sure on this but i thought when it comes to games all 4 sided Polys are converted to triangles, can someone confirm this? and if so, for what reason?

Here's a pic of a car in PGR3, they're using traingles also.



Yes a triangle is consider a polygon, since it create a plane. Its the bare minuim definition. With that in mind, polygons, can be 3-4 side or more (n-gons). A 4 side polygon typical, but you can have 5 sided or more polygons(n-gons).

Weather its, 4 side or n-gons a engine well always convert it into triangles in realtime, why? for a number to reason, its easier on the engine to break things down into triangles, instead of dealing with polygons. Another reside i guess, would be the engine doesnt want to deal with displaying non-planar polygons, so breaking it into triangles prevents that.

Even in run-time 3D application such as maya, 3DSMAX, Modo, Mirai,etc, polygons and n-gons are broken up into traingles during a modeling session, but they dont dislay them as such, because artist cant model effectively with triangle, it would be counter protective on pole modeling and edge loop modeling.


For 80,000 triangles it looks as good as any thing seen on PS3.
http://rapidshare.de/files/5962781/pgr3x05gp1.wmv.html (http://rapidshare.de/files/5962781/pgr3x05gp1.wmv.html)


Everyone on all forums thinks that they know it all, but when it's all said and done the proof will be the games, so far PS3 has no playable games and ALL PS fanboys believe that MGS4 is real gameplay, because they were told so, until i see it for my own 2 eyes then MGS4 or KZ2 are just pre render footage.

please, dont insult my IQ by say that 80,000 triangles looks as good as anything(Lair?) seen on the PS3, without offering alittle more substance to your opinion. Its true at 800,000 to 100,000 you might not notice a visual difference in motion. But given that a game like Lair has say about double the amount of triangles to work with, they could use it to add more fine detail that you wont see in a XBOX 360 game, thats where you'll see the visual(detail) difference. Thats not fanboy boy talk..thats just facts base on the new info about Lair. You would think a game like racing with small number of cars on screen(PGR3)would have higher triangle count, per car.. than a dragon game(tons of them on scan at one time) , but ironically that isnt the case at all. Compound that , by the fact that Koei character consist of 150 K traingle also..those numbers are inline with the PS3 performance, which are superior(triangle wise) to XBOX 360. I'd to see you argue against the technicail valid points i made here :wave:

Also, most MGS4 fans know what a "Realtime cut scene" is, so dont play that "we ignorant card", maybe your the ignorant one. MGS4 is a realtime cut scene, meaning its running off their engine, and that engine is functioning as best as it can on a NOT so final development kit(no RSX, slow PCI-Express), if anything the final product well look as good as it current does, or better visually. Case , being MGS2 on the PS2. If you think overwise, your fooling yourself. :shrug:

so, troll on if you want.


BTW, Jason, thanks for the new info..seems it has a few xbox fanboys/trolls in damange control, with little technicail substance to aid their trolling. I seriouly like this forum, but sometimes..trolling is abit annoying, likewise with beyond3D.

[Junox50]

Woundingchaney man you are good, I have been here before you, and you can still post with these guys, 90% of the posters on this board is blinded by there faith for PS3, posting on a PS board is like walking up to a Priest and telling him that god doesn't not exist, of course the priest is gonna think that you are the devil, in the same respect that these guys will think that you are a fanboy because you don't see it there way.

I gave up these boards long time ago, I respect there opinions, but some of these gys need to look into the mirror and ask themselves did he really believe that lie they just wrote. Keep up the good work woundingchaney, the community needs more open minded gamers.

You know, I could say the samething when I go to such sites like TeamXbox. There are fanboys blinded by their favored console all around. This is a playstation forum so your bound to find some biased people here. But there are also non biased people here also.

As for respect, I don't really know about that. Most of the time you get upset when someone says something in opposition to Xbox 360, somebody that supports Microsoft, or even Microsoft for that matter. Every time you post you hardly have anything positive to say.

Anyway, more info on this Lair game keeps getting better and better. Hope to hear more about it.

[Illmatic]

Yes a triangle is consider a polygon, since it create a plane. Its the bare minuim definition. With that in mind, polygons, can be 3-4 side or more (n-gons). A 4 side polygon typical, but you can have 5 sided or more polygons(n-gons).

Weather its, 4 side or n-gons a engine well always convert it into triangles in realtime, why? for a number to reason, its easier on the engine to break things down into triangles, instead of dealing with polygons. Another reside i guess, would be the engine doesnt want to deal with displaying non-planar polygons, so breaking it into triangles prevents that.

Even in run-time 3D application such as maya, 3DSMAX, Modo, Mirai,etc, polygons and n-gons are broken up into traingles during a modeling session, but they dont dislay them as such, because artist cant model effectively with triangle, it would be counter protective on pole modeling and edge loop modeling.


Cool, cheers for that. I guess characters using triangles would appear smoother than ones using quads also. It just through me off when i heard games convert polys to triangles, it's weird, in 3D modeling we're taught to stick to quads, and hide any visible traingles since triangles can cuase you to experience problems with deforming. But yeah, i guess it makes sence for games. Cheers again. :smoke:

[Black Dragon37]

Who cares about those people. Factor 5's Lair is already proving the point, along with many others. Many can continue to claim that PS3 is a difficult dinosaurus, but with the number of demos coming out that feature impressive visuals (developed on early SDKs); it's not proving their claims.It's common knowlede that the Cell is harder to develop than Xenon, yet it's also known that it's easier to develop than the Emotion Engine.

Think about it: if developers took quite a long time to push the EE to its limits, then you're obviously gonna see a shorter time with the Cell.

That's something you have forgotten. While Xenon is easier to use than the Cell, the EE is harder to use than the Cell. So all those developers who have developed on the EE (and that'll be many) would find the Cell easier to push ts limits.

[rpgamer_2k5]

Note: Many of the arguments I post, are not meant to further our argument, instead it is a new post running in parallel to this debate. I don't want to create another post. :p

Your evidence is little more than your views on certain controversy. We do not prove anything at this forum, it is simply a place for debate. You seem to take any controversy and call it evidence. Saibo, is the best. Take a look at his thread. I do not consider the claims of the developers of Lair false. If you do, then we'll being doing some unnecessary doubting. The developers are looking to garner sales, and they are not going to get anything by lying.

The PS3 may indeed be more powerful than the 360, but are you saying that a first gen PS3 titles is going to be more powerful than what is capable of the 360. I am stating this and I got a feeling that there are a few who see such a claim comparable to "Earth is flat". I base this on the demos I see. There is little to any logic onto why the Xbox 360 must be even with the PS3. Sony, a hardware firm has been able to develop a console that was competitive visually to consoles released 1.5 years after it.

Second, there is little reason for developers to present pre-rendered movies, because it would just hurt them in the end. Even if it was, just imagine if Killzone appeared to be very similar to the FMV? It would definitely be ahead of MGS4, GoW, and what not. :) Also there is no reason for developers to claim 5 million triangles for hi-res in-game characters if it wasn't true. Ask yourself:

- Why do we not hear of similar claims from Microsoft's side?
- Why do the 'realtime' demos for the Xbox 360 not look anywhere similar to the attained figures or the demos? Is there any other counter-argument, other than: fake demos; - a claim without evidence.

The realtime MGS4 will end up looking much more better, because it was developed on a prototype SDK. Anyhow, does it seem ackward that such a game exceeds the Xbox 360 game, even though the latter was rendered off complete SDKs? Even if GoW was running at 60%, the MGS4 demo was not receiving any benefits either. :cheers:

PGR3 is showing a gameplay trailer, not pre rendered, not cut scene, but gameplay, how do I know it is gameplay well I suppose quite simply I dont, but if that is the case how do you know that the Sony trailers are even being done on the PS3? I see it, so the PGR3 trailer could indeed be a pre-rendered movie, meaning there is a possibility that it could be a representation of the game. :)

Now simply I find it hard to believe you have never played an action game that has cutscene superior to the ingame graphics, even though I repeatedly state I dont consider this the case in MGS4 you insist of stringing out the debate. What is it you want me to say that cut scenes mimick in game graphics, sorry I dont believe that to be true in all cases. Im aware of the games you speak of that use different engines for the cutscenes and I can assure you thats not what Im talking about. You can ramble and post all you like, I simply dont find it to be true, yet you insist that we prove it right here at these forums, well perhaps we should invite all the knowledgable minds to witness our awe inspiring debates. I got very defensive on this count, and I shall withdraw. There is Devil May Cry as an action game with CG cutscenes. The reason why, I directed my 'string of arguments' to you is because you only praised Nemesis's point, not deny his claim (ie. MGS4 not being realtime). It gave an impression that you are holding such a view, as in the previous thread, however I do agree that I was acting very rash in the previous post, pertaining to this issue.

Once again your acting as if the cell's architecture has been proven in games and that it is old news. Perhaps I am wrong and Im not quite updated on my reading, it is still to be determined how efficient the spes are at differnet calculations. Thats the foundation of my statement nothing more nothing less. I believe it to be a powerful processor and has its advantages, but Im quite sure it has its disadvantages as well. I think both consoles have their strengths and weaknesses as I have pointed out in the past. We have many intelligent users who have effectively proven my points, and I simply draw those posts to this thread. (sarcasm)
Those were uncertainties of the past, by a few individuals. The SPEs are clearly CPUs, just take a look at the Cell thread; the required sources are present. If we're going to take about not being 'proven' in a gaming environment, then what about the XeCPU? How do we know it is reliable in a gaming environment? It is a tri-cored in-order processor, with weak hardware branch predictors; in sum: it's quite different from the PC CPUs. We're talking about two unproven CPUs, yup. See how such arguments can go; there is little reason for Sony (an experienced hardware maker that developed three gaming systems) to use an 'unproven' Cell CPU. Since MS hasn't even used a CPU similar to the 360 for the Xbox, while not being a hardware player; it tells us that MS isn't in a better position.

:-) Have a nice day.
Same to you! I gotta say, what was going into a tense debate, because very friendly after your conclusion. I need to be calm like you. :)

[Domination]

To be fair he was comparing a stable in-game engine [GOW] to a real-time performance demo (pretty much), so who's to say that the final game will be able push out 100,000 - 150,000 for each character.

LOL! Ok, let's put it this way: who's to say the PS1 could push 800 a character just to have the PS2 turn around and push 10,000+? Is it really that inconceivable?

Also, it has really got to be put to rest about some games not matching their cut-scenes. If you haven't played Metal Gear, then I'm sure you can still related (even as an exclusive Xbox fan) to what a game is like when only the AI takes over just by looking at a game like the Grand Theft Auto series. I am not talking about the small movie clips as the story progresses, although we can compare those,too. I am talking about the AI taking over for a short second. Can you tell me what is so much different about the game in AI form than if you were to actually play it? This is exactly how the MGS series is.

I really dont see why the 360 couldnt push 100,000 to 150k models. The power is there in both the cpu and the gpu. Simply because Proj Goth racing doesnt use that many is in no way an indication that it cant be done.

I'm not so sure about the 150k, but I definitely see it doing 100k. Of course this could amount to few characters on screen, maybe. But that's beside the point. The million dollar question is rather they can get this out of the console during launch. If they can, then that's good news. Most likely the console isn't maxed out. But if they can't, well, i don't have to say anything about that.

Actually, they are the same thing, when a developer use the word "polygon" he is using it lossy, most of the time he is refering to triangle count. Because, every game engine i know of, always tesselate/turns the mesh into triangles in realtime. Anyway, just keep in mind for future reference polygons= triangles always.

So its 80,000 triangles for PRG3 racing
and 100,000 - 170,000 triangles for Lair.

PS3 is realling starting to scream, NEXT GEN to me now, first Koei mention characters at 150,000 triangles,and now Factor5 at 100 -170 K, see the trend here?

I figured that was the case, but I wasn't as sure. http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/thumb.gif

For 80,000 triangles it looks as good as any thing seen on PS3.
http://rapidshare.de/files/5962781/pgr3x05gp1.wmv.html (http://rapidshare.de/files/5962781/pgr3x05gp1.wmv.html)


Everyone on all forums thinks that they know it all, but when it's all said and done the proof will be the games, so far PS3 has no playable games and ALL PS fanboys believe that MGS4 is real gameplay, because they were told so, until i see it for my own 2 eyes then MGS4 or KZ2 are just pre render footage.

Let's just pretend for a moment that you are right.

Why do you think people are so eager to find out whether the demos Sony is showing are real-time while completely avoiding Microsoft's in-game footage as comparison? If what Sony has shown is no different from what Microsoft has shown, then wouldn't that make the 360 gameplay footage CG as well? If so, then why can't you think of the footage shown for the PS3 as gameplay footage? If the consoles are equally the same, then what is the problem? If not, then you are amitting that they are superior, would you not?

I am just trying to make sure we are both on the same level here.

Oh and ,BTW, MGS4 was confirmed to be in-game footage by the developer himself.

Since when have you ever known Sony to hold back.

Nearly every statement there is the opposite of what little we know from devs.

As far as consoles, the PSP. As far as electronics, everything.;-]

Well once again what playable games on the PS3 have you seen that are leagues ahead of current pc titles.

Keep in mind that PDO was primarily built for the original xbox and then ported over to the 360, also many gaming mags and reporters are quite impressed with the game (I understand that it is really opinion here).
PGR looks great, but perhaps my standards do not mimick yours and how can you belittle GOW when its running on a single thread at a 60 percent build.

The current games we are seeing where built on hardware vastly different from the 360 and many games are just ports of titles on the 360, where as Im not pleased by this it doesnt really give us any idea of the capabilties of the 360.

That depends on what we see at launch. ;-]

[woundingchaney]

Note: Many of the arguments I post, are not meant to further our argument, instead it is a new post running in parallel to this debate. I don't want to create another post. :p

Saibo, is the best. Take a look at his thread. I do not consider the claims of the developers of Lair false. If you do, then we'll being doing some unnecessary doubting. The developers are looking to garner sales, and they are not going to get anything by lying.

I am stating this and I got a feeling that there are a few who see such a claim comparable to "Earth is flat". I base this on the demos I see. There is little to any logic onto why the Xbox 360 must be even with the PS3. Sony, a hardware firm has been able to develop a console that was competitive visually to consoles released 1.5 years after it.

Second, there is little reason for developers to present pre-rendered movies, because it would just hurt them in the end. Even if it was, just imagine if Killzone appeared to be very similar to the FMV? It would definitely be ahead of MGS4, GoW, and what not. :) Also there is no reason for developers to claim 5 million triangles for hi-res in-game characters if it wasn't true. Ask yourself:

- Why do we not hear of similar claims from Microsoft's side?
- Why do the 'realtime' demos for the Xbox 360 not look anywhere similar to the attained figures or the demos? Is there any other counter-argument, other than: fake demos; - a claim without evidence.

The realtime MGS4 will end up looking much more better, because it was developed on a prototype SDK. Anyhow, does it seem ackward that such a game exceeds the Xbox 360 game, even though the latter was rendered off complete SDKs? Even if GoW was running at 60%, the MGS4 demo was not receiving any benefits either. :cheers:

I see it, so the PGR3 trailer could indeed be a pre-rendered movie, meaning there is a possibility that it could be a representation of the game. :)

I got very defensive on this count, and I shall withdraw. There is Devil May Cry as an action game with CG cutscenes. The reason why, I directed my 'string of arguments' to you is because you only praised Nemesis's point, not deny his claim (ie. MGS4 not being realtime). It gave an impression that you are holding such a view, as in the previous thread, however I do agree that I was acting very rash in the previous post, pertaining to this issue.


Those were uncertainties of the past, by a few individuals. The SPEs are clearly CPUs, just take a look at the Cell thread; the required sources are present. If we're going to take about not being 'proven' in a gaming environment, then what about the XeCPU? How do we know it is reliable in a gaming environment? It is a tri-cored in-order processor, with weak hardware branch predictors; in sum: it's quite different from the PC CPUs. We're talking about two unproven CPUs, yup. See how such arguments can go; there is little reason for Sony (an experienced hardware maker that developed three gaming systems) to use an 'unproven' Cell CPU. Since MS hasn't even used a CPU similar to the 360 for the Xbox, while not being a hardware player; it tells us that MS isn't in a better position.


Same to you! I gotta say, what was going into a tense debate, because very friendly after your conclusion. I need to be calm like you. :)


Now we are on even grounds here.

I want to clear up that I dont know if the XEcpu is a more capable "gaming" cpu, nor did I mean to make that misleading. Honestly I think that devs will make it fly quicker than they get the Cell, but I look for cell to be the overall more powerful processor. I do disagree with your statement on Sony, though. There is every reason for Sony to use the cell cpu even if it isnt the ideal gaming cpu, once again I dont necessarily believe this to be the case.

As far as the SPEs being cpus, I remember the article including this. If I remember right the only thing they are missing is branch prediction or efficient branch prediction. If this is indeed the case Im willing to bet we see a growing software library to eliminate any problems.

Once again I dont quite agree with your statements on devs. What is capable often differs from what we get. Quite often statements are made in overly utopian situations and real world results dont reflect the capabilities. As far as real time demos, well I think MS isnt putting much emphasis on demos or the like and just show casing games, this could be for a multitude of reasons. Personally I think the launch was rushed so there wasnt sufficient time for such examples, both by MS and devs (of course this is opinion). I dont believe that the demos Sony has shown are "fake", however I dont expect to see such things in games (at least not until the end of the gen, if at all). Of course only time will tell. I would like to state the difference between lying and hyping a product, particularly in respect to devs.


Good discussion ;-]

[Glacier]

from Domination;
"Let's just pretend for a moment that you are right.

Why do you think people are so eager to find out whether the demos Sony is showing are real-time while completely avoiding Microsoft's in-game footage as comparison? If what Sony has shown is no different from what Microsoft has shown, then wouldn't that make the 360 gameplay footage CG as well? If so, then why can't you think of the footage shown for the PS3 as gameplay footage? If the consoles are equally the same, then what is the problem? If not, then you are amitting that they are superior, would you not?

I am just trying to make sure we are both on the same level here."

very good point!

-to wounding, nemesis and all the others sharing their view: i can't understand something; how can anyone say that there is even a second of MGS4 is not from the visuals of the gameplay.(to be on topic) This includes Lair. At the beginning of the trailer, they showed a message saying something like, 'This video was made entirely of ingame graphics'. Going back to MGS4, kojiem (one of the most respected figures in gaming.) said just before TGS that the showing of mgs4 will be entirely ingame graphics- meaning graphics of the gameplay. At TGS, konami repeated this. after showing mgs4, konami said they will have alive demo in their booth. There, kojiema reiterated before playing the demo himself in front of every body. Not only that but he paused it and played with the filters turning them on/off to show off different effects. this is similar to what happened with unreal tournament ps3 at the ps meeting. sweeny turned on/off different shader effects to show the difference between a current and next-gen game.
mgs4's trailer also says 'forget pre-rendered scenes'. all that and there are people that accuse them of lying?!
i won't talk about killzone or that crazy motorstorm , i am talking about the games where it was clearly said and demonstrated live. this also includes the gundam demo. they , again , played with it -just like fight night 3, mgs4 and unreal tourny.

can some please explain why this is?

[woundingchaney]

from Domination;
"Let's just pretend for a moment that you are right.

Why do you think people are so eager to find out whether the demos Sony is showing are real-time while completely avoiding Microsoft's in-game footage as comparison? If what Sony has shown is no different from what Microsoft has shown, then wouldn't that make the 360 gameplay footage CG as well? If so, then why can't you think of the footage shown for the PS3 as gameplay footage? If the consoles are equally the same, then what is the problem? If not, then you are amitting that they are superior, would you not?

I am just trying to make sure we are both on the same level here."

very good point!

-to wounding, nemesis and all the others sharing their view: i can't understand something; how can anyone say that there is even a second of MGS4 is not from the visuals of the gameplay.(to be on topic) This includes Lair. At the beginning of the trailer, they showed a message saying something like, 'This video was made entirely of ingame graphics'. Going back to MGS4, kojiem (one of the most respected figures in gaming.) said just before TGS that the showing of mgs4 will be entirely ingame graphics- meaning graphics of the gameplay. At TGS, konami repeated this. after showing mgs4, konami said they will have alive demo in their booth. There, kojiema reiterated before playing the demo himself in front of every body. Not only that but he paused it and played with the filters turning them on/off to show off different effects. this is similar to what happened with unreal tournament ps3 at the ps meeting. sweeny turned on/off different shader effects to show the difference between a current and next-gen game.
mgs4's trailer also says 'forget pre-rendered scenes'. all that and there are people that accuse them of lying?!
i won't talk about killzone or that crazy motorstorm , i am talking about the games where it was clearly said and demonstrated live. this also includes the gundam demo. they , again , played with it -just like fight night 3, mgs4 and unreal tourny.

can some please explain why this is?

There is a difference between a demo stating everything is ingame graphics and a demo showing gameplay. Ingame graphics could be anything, cutscenes, cgi intros, etc. Gameplay is footage of the game actually running, the part where you interact with the game.

As far as the MGS4 trailer, it was a cutscene from the game (or whatever) it didnt truly represent gameplay (it represented a part of the game you watch to further the story, this trailer used the same engine that the games graphics will be composed of, whether or not the gameplay looks like this is
up to the devs and your own personal judgement. The graphics of the trailer should mimick the graphics of gameplay in MGS4. However other aspects are still left up in the air. All the debate comes from cutscenes being the same calibur as gameplay. Im not sure how I got thrown into this debate as I believe I said from the get go that MGS4 gameplay graphics would look like the cutscene graphics, although still other things will change such as character movement, character interactions (background and npcs), npc movement, and maybe effects (to a certain degree), and camera angles.

I hope I answered your question. :spiny:

[Domination]

Now we are on even grounds here.

I want to clear up that I dont know if the XEcpu is a more capable "gaming" cpu, nor did I mean to make that misleading. Honestly I think that devs will make it fly quicker than they get the Cell, but I look for cell to be the overall more powerful processor. I do disagree with your statement on Sony, though. There is every reason for Sony to use the cell cpu even if it isnt the ideal gaming cpu, once again I dont necessarily believe this to be the case.

As far as the SPEs being cpus, I remember the article including this. If I remember right the only thing they are missing is branch prediction or efficient branch prediction. If this is indeed the case Im willing to bet we see a growing software library to eliminate any problems.

Once again I dont quite agree with your statements on devs. What is capable often differs from what we get. Quite often statements are made in overly utopian situations and real world results dont reflect the capabilities. As far as real time demos, well I think MS isnt putting much emphasis on demos or the like and just show casing games, this could be for a multitude of reasons. Personally I think the launch was rushed so there wasnt sufficient time for such examples, both by MS and devs (of course this is opinion). I dont believe that the demos Sony has shown are "fake", however I dont expect to see such things in games (at least not until the end of the gen, if at all). Of course only time will tell. I would like to state the difference between lying and hyping a product, particularly in respect to devs.


Good discussion ;-]

Wounding, there is just one small problem that I see with that, Sony did not come up with the idea for the Cell CPU, SCEI/Kutaragi, the person behind the games division, did. Having that be the case, what do you think the odds are of this CPU being designed to strike a set goal that Ken wanted to see in next-gen performance?

Now that doesn't mean that makes the Cell useless to other electronic devices, but I do have to question it's original purpose. The following is how I'd like to see the Cell: Sony Electronics (http://news.com.com/Sony+hones+its+TV+efforts/2100-1041_3-5397240.html)

Woundingchaney man you are good, I have been here before you, and you can still post with these guys, 90% of the posters on this board is blinded by there faith for PS3, posting on a PS board is like walking up to a Priest and telling him that god doesn't not exist, of course the priest is gonna think that you are the devil, in the same respect that these guys will think that you are a fanboy because you don't see it there way.

I gave up these boards long time ago, I respect there opinions, but some of these gys need to look into the mirror and ask themselves did he really believe that lie they just wrote. Keep up the good work woundingchaney, the community needs more open minded gamers.

A small portion of that could have something to do with people telling you only what you wanted to hear, and that's fine. But eventually it's going to catch up and someone is going to snag it. That's why it doesn't pay to have a narrow view on things. I notice you were probably told that MGS4 was pre-rendered or that you were never informed before your mind had already been made up as to what it was. http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/wink4.gif

[woundingchaney]

Wounding, there is just one small problem that I see with that, Sony did not come up with the idea for the Cell CPU, SCEI/Kutaragi, the person behind the games devision, did. Having that be the case, what do you think the odds are of this CPU being designed to strike a set goal that Ken wanted to see in next-gen performance?

Now that doesn't mean that makes the Cell useless to other electronic devices, but I do have to question it's original purpose. The following is how I'd like see the Cell: Sony Electronics

Ok Dom, that was my fault for being vague.

Sony invested massive amounts of money into the Cell design, the Cell design was also supposed to incorporate both the cpu and gpu into one processor (correct?), when it became obvious this wasnt going to pan out they made contacts with Nvidia. Irregardless of the situation, Sony is going to use their processor to its fullest extent to see a pay off from their investment (even if the processor isnt ideal, once again I dont believe that is the case). Their is many areas where the Cell excels in (no pun intended), but there is still speculation as to its general purpose processing capabilities (Im not wanting to get into an overly large debate here, Ive read the articles stayed up to date on the info, the question has yet to be determined in my mind there are many who dont agree with me and still others that do).

But yes I see your point Dom. :twitch:

[Domination]

[QUOTE=woundingchaney]Ok Dom, that was my fault for being vague.

Sony invested massive amounts of money into the Cell design, the Cell design was also supposed to incorporate both the cpu and gpu into one processor (correct?), when it became obvious this wasnt going to pan out they made contacts with Nvidia. Irregardless of the situation, Sony is going to use their processor to its fullest extent to see a pay off from their investment (even if the processor isnt ideal, once again I dont believe that is the case). Their is many areas where the Cell excels in (no pun intended), but there is still speculation as to its general purpose processing capabilities (Im not wanting to get into an overly large debate here, Ive read the articles stayed up to date on the info, the question has yet to be determined in my mind there are many who dont agree with me and still others that do).

But yes I see your point Dom. :twitch:

If you mean one of the ideas as Cell acting as a GPU, then yes, that would be correct, as with the demos at E3 using only or mainly the Cell: Alfred Molina, terrain, The Getaway. But a Cell by itself wasn't one of those ideas to answer all the problems. There were two Cells: one acting as the CPU (which is what you see now) and a second Cell acting as a GPU. You notice how close the two processors are in architecture but serve different purposes? Anyhow, the SPEs in the Cell did not achieve all that Sony wanted, so they put a GPU in it's place. They are helping to build the GPU with nVidia, which means whatever they didn't see in the two Cells working congruently with one another, they saw in a GPU - a customly designed GPU.

Now read Kutaragi's statment:

Kutaragi: It's the culture of SCEI that sticking onto details we implement them one by one. Every part has elaboration and it's reflected in detailed parts of system architectures.

For example, RSX is not a variant of nVIDIA's PC chip. CELL and RSX have close relationship (((and))) both can access the main memory and the VRAM transparently. CELL can access the VRAM just like the main memory, and RSX can use the main memory as a frame buffer. They are just separated for the main usage, and do not really have distinction.

This architecture was designed to kill wasteful data copy and calculation between CELL and RSX. RSX can directly refer to a result simulated by CELL and CELL can directly refer to a shape of a thing RSX added shading to (note: CELL and RSX have independent bidirectional bandwidths so there is no contention). It's impossible for shared memory no matter how beautiful rendering and complicated shading shared memory can do.

[woundingchaney]

[QUOTE]

If you mean one of the ideas as Cell acting as a GPU, then yes, that would be correct, as with the demos at E3 using only or mainly the Cell: Alfred Molina, terrain, The Getaway. But a Cell by itself wasn't one of those ideas to answer all the problems. There were two Cells: one acting as the CPU (which is what you see now) and a second Cell acting as a GPU. You notice how close the two processors are in architecture but serve different purposes? Anyhow, the SPEs in the Cell did not achieve all that Sony wanted, so they put a GPU in it's place. They are helping to build the GPU with nVidia, which means whatever they didn't see in the two Cells working congruently with one another, they saw in a GPU - a customly designed GPU.



Right,

That is along the lines of what Im getting at.

[Glacier]

thanx for clearing it up. so you say all the 'real-time' games will indeed look like that in the final build. but what u are talking about is actual gameplay like game mechanics, weapons, moves, control , etc.
we don't know much about gameplay -though some are safe to expect how they will generally be like.
since nothing official is announced about actual play experiences, we only have visuals to work with now.

[Domination]

Right,

That is along the lines of what Im getting at.

Then you are correct. However, as I said before, the Cell that acted as a CPU in the beginging is still serving it's same, original purpose as the Cell we saw at E3. Nothing has change about that from what Kutaragi has said. The only thing that has changed is the Cell that was suppose to acted as the main GPU. That is why we have RSX.

Kutaragi also said something about one of their ideas was to have Cell as a GPU before mentioning later that he chose nVidia over Toshiba for the GPU this time compared to the last. That makes me wonder if a second idea was to get Toshiba to do the RSX before realizing that it,too, didn't meet their expectations neither, making nVidia a third idea or maybe more.

When people see these things, they think, "Oh, oh...they had to redo the problem. That means they have failed." I don't think of anything interms of that until it's final. Thinking and doing is two different things. That would be the same as telling someone because they didn't write in the correct answer the first time even though they found it to be wrong later on before it was turned in, that makes them incapable of ever getting the answer right.

Another thing that distorts a lot of views is Sony being more incontrol of their ideas than that of their competitors. So they know exactly what's going on. Do you remember people saying Sony was struggling with the Cell and that it would end up running way too hot and underpowered but later found that the processor exceeded the 4GHz claim as well as turning up a success over the Power PC?

[woundingchaney]

Then you are correct. However, as I said before, the Cell that acted as a CPU in the beginging is still serving it's same, original purpose as the Cell we saw at E3. Nothing has change about that from what Kutaragi has said. The only thing that has changed is the Cell that was suppose to acted as the main GPU. That is why we have RSX.

Kutaragi also said something about one of their ideas was to have Cell as a GPU before mentioning later that he chose nVidia over Toshiba for the GPU this time compared to the last. That makes me wonder if a second idea was to get Toshiba to do the RSX before realizing that it,too, didn't meet their expectations neither, making nVidia a third idea or maybe more.

When people see these things, they think, "Oh, oh...they had to redo the problem. That means they have failed." I don't think of anything interms of that until it's final. Thinking and doing is two different things. That would be the same as telling someone because they didn't write in the correct answer the first time even though they found it to be wrong later on before it was turned in, that makes them incapable of ever getting the answer right.

Another thing that distorts a lot of views is Sony being more incontrol of their ideas than that of their competitors. So they know exactly what's going on. Do you remember people saying Sony was struggling with the Cell and that it would end up running way too hot and underpowered but later found that the processor exceeded the 4GHz claim as well as turning up a success over the Power PC?

Yes I remember those heat issues.

I think perhaps you misunderstood me here Dom. Im not trying to convey that the cell is a bad processor by any means (infact in certain areas it is unsurpassed), I still have my reservations as to its complete usefulness in gaming environments (thats not to say that the Xecpu is more capable than the cell, I have my reservations on it as well).

I think much of what we see from devs is misleading, its more of a "See what we did"- than -"This is what your going to be playing". Of course that is just a personal opinion.

[Domination]

Yes I remember those heat issues.

I think perhaps you misunderstood me here Dom. Im not trying to convey that the cell is a bad processor by any means (infact in certain areas it is unsurpassed), I still have my reservations as to its complete usefulness in gaming environments (thats not to say that the Xecpu is more capable than the cell, I have my reservations on it as well).

I think much of what we see from devs is misleading, its more of a "See what we did"- than -"This is what your going to be playing". Of course that is just a personal opinion.

Well, i can't really argue with that. That's your opinion, and I guess it should stand as every other. I'm thinking that we're going to see something a lot different from what is being said, though. But that would be my logical opinion. :)

[woundingchaney]

Well, i can't really argue with that. That's your opinion, and I guess it should stand as every other. I'm thinking that we're going to see something a lot different from what is being said, though. But that would be my logical opinion. :)

Glad to see that once again we agree t disagree. :wave:

[Darkon]

does anyone here have the link to the cell gpu hybrid i know there is one

[Z]

okay, seriously now, these polygon numbers are crazy. I suspected 50-70K (as was tounted way back when) to be amazing. now Koie, Factor 5 and others say the main character has 100-170K?! looking at the Lair footage, you can see many Drags (fire-breatger nick name) on-screen. Koie just loves those hack-and-slash Dynasty Worrior-esqu games. with those mant characters on screen with those many polys...is it even possible?! they say yes, but my brain hurts!

[Illmatic]

okay, seriously now, these polygon numbers are crazy. I suspected 50-70K (as was tounted way back when) to be amazing. now Koie, Factor 5 and others say the main character has 100-170K?! looking at the Lair footage, you can see many Drags (fire-breatger nick name) on-screen. Koie just loves those hack-and-slash Dynasty Worrior-esqu games. with those mant characters on screen with those many polys...is it even possible?! they say yes, but my brain hurts!

I think that KOEI game is called 'Bladestorm: The 100 year war'. I guess the PSM2 interview with climax was spot on.

Tell us about RSX. What does it do?

That?s the kick-ass poly-pusher.

And to add on to your post Z, Kojima also said that they used 60,000 polys for the hair on snakes model :smoke:

[Z]

things just keeps getting better and better!

if all this is for first gen games done on unfinished SDKs, what is it going to be like in 2 or more years into PS3's life?

I am still starving for ANY next gen Tekken info.

[Nerve-Damage]

Give me about 30-60 minutes....

I will show you why "Factor 5" has the skills to push the PS3 hardware. It's not a PS3 article, but rather a GameCube article dealing with Star Wars: Rogue Squadron 2. You'll get the ideal on why I posted this. :sleepy:

Edit: By the way...I own this game for GameCube....still fu**ing awesome.

[Z]

yup, that game is one of the Cube graphical show cases. really a work of art visually.

[Nerve-Damage]

Read everything (graphic effects, polygon count, ECT..) and you'll see why "Factor 5" has the skills too push the PS3 hardware. If they can do this with GameCube, imagine what they can do with the PS3.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8373/scan014si.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan014si.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4229/scan025dw.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan025dw.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2990/scan036wm.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan036wm.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8030/scan040fh.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan040fh.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7820/scan059tu.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan059tu.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/57/scan060xm.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan060xm.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4374/scan073np.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan073np.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/1264/scan081ej.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan081ej.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/88/scan097zk.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan097zk.jpg)

Few of GameCube Rogue Squadron Engine Specs:
* 130,000 polygons per Star Destroyer
* 8 texture passes per polygon surface
* 480p/60fps
* Full scene Anti-Aliasing
* Bump-Mapping
* Specularity (Specular Lighting)
* Dirt Maps
* Illumination Maps

[Domination]

does anyone here have the link to the cell gpu hybrid i know there is one


The topic is somewhere in this room, but I can copy/paste the artical if you'd like.

things just keeps getting better and better!

if all this is for first gen games done on unfinished SDKs, what is it going to be like in 2 or more years into PS3's life?

I am still starving for ANY next gen Tekken info.

The best way to compared it is to look at the PS2. You know how developers keep talking about 2000 characters on screen. Astonishing enough, there is a game on the PS2 that is getting ready to launch only in Japan that features 65,000 characters on screen at once. I honestly thought it was a next-gen title since it visually looked better than most related genres. I'm thinking the PS3 might be capable of pushing close to a million after developers get used to the hardware, never mind 2000.

[woundingchaney]

http://www.bizarreonline.net/index.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=61

Well here is an article stating that many of the cars in Pgr3 display around 120,000 polygons per car (with damage, is that more impressive?). So I think it is safe to say that this being a first gen game (composed primarily on inferior hardware) that the 360 could in fact reach limits beyond this. It turns out that the average car is composed of about 96,000 ppolygons with damage adding an additional 10,000 to 20,000 polygons per car.:dur:

[Z]

that is impressive. how ever, the average 'character' this gen consists of 5k polys. occasionally it will go higher such as in good wrestling anf fighting games, but we are talking about the norm here. now, do you know how many polys GT4 uses?
point is organic characters are more complexed and demanding. by that, the poly number should be reversed between X2 and PS3. Lair should have 105k and PG3 170K. but in reality Lair still uses much more polys even so. we are talking of a 70k difference here. that is by no means a simple margine. plus, other characters in Lair use 100k each (nearly as high as the highest models in PGR3)!

PG3 is one of the very few impressive looking games on X2. it is a first party game. such games should be the first to push a system.
I don't want this to be a compare thread between the two consoles. we are talking about a game on PS3. X2 can push 10 folds, it would still be irrelevant in this thread. it is just like comparing RE4 for both Cube and PS2. for the majority of single-console owners, such a comparison isn't important.

- "I can conclusively reveal that in fact we do NOT have 80,000 polygons on average per car," says the company in their latest community update. "It's actually closer to 96,000... Some cars have around 85,000 polygons, but many go as high as 105,000."
1up (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3144715)

[Nerve-Damage]

http://www.bizarreonline.net/index.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=61

Well here is an article stating that many of the cars in Pgr3 display around 120,000 polygons per car (with damage, is that more impressive?). So I think it is safe to say that this being a first gen game (composed primarily on inferior hardware) that the 360 could in fact reach limits beyond this. It turns out that the average car is composed of about 96,000 ppolygons with damage adding an additional 10,000 to 20,000 polygons per car.:dur:

Yet not one editor or writer (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24534) has been blown away by PGR or any other X-360 launch game. Most feel either the games were a step above the original Xbox or well within range of a High-end computer. Don’t get me wrong, Xbox 360 2nd-3rd generation of games (mostly the ones using the unreal 3.0 engine anyway) will make the system shine.

It’s the system launch titles that everyone remembers and the demos that came before it. That’s why so many people have a hard time believing Sony PS3 specs, rendering, ECT…this time around because of the mediocre launch titles not looking revolutionary. People (Myself included) remember that the PS2 launch titles looked nothing like the revolutionary E3 demos showing what the PS2 can do. Yet it took the 3rd-4th generation of PS2 software to prove the PS2 has the capabilities, however it feels too late in the game for Sony to say I told you so.

What I’m getting at, is that Microsoft is rushing this launch, its third party game developers, hardware, just so it can be first to the market. Sony however is in the best position at the moment to refine the PS3 hardware, and giving there developers more time (compared to the X-360) to make PS3s first generation software equal or surpass X-360 second generation of games. Microsoft Xbox 360 plans feels too eerily like Sega Dreamcast ones.

[woundingchaney]

Yet not one editor or writer (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24534) has been blown away by PGR or any other X-360 launch game. Most feel either the games were a step above the original Xbox or well within range of a High-end computer. Don’t get me wrong, Xbox 360 2nd-3rd generation of games (mostly the ones using the unreal 3.0 engine anyway) will make the system shine.

It’s the system launch titles that everyone remembers and the demos that came before it. That’s why so many people have a hard time believing Sony PS3 specs, rendering, ECT…this time around because of the mediocre launch titles not looking revolutionary. People (Myself included) remember that the PS2 launch titles looked nothing like the revolutionary E3 demos showing what the PS2 can do. Yet it took the 3rd-4th generation of PS2 software to prove the PS2 has the capabilities, however it feels too late in the game for Sony to say I told you so.

What I’m getting at, is that Microsoft is rushing this launch, its third party game developers, hardware, just so it can be first to the market. Sony however is in the best position at the moment to refine the PS3 hardware, and giving there developers more time (compared to the X-360) to make PS3s first generation software equal or surpass X-360 second generation of games. Microsoft Xbox 360 plans feels too eerily like Sega Dreamcast ones.


Umm there has been many editors and writers that were impressed by PGR3 (although you said blown away so maybe Im not on the same page here).

I as well think that the 360 launch was rushed as well and many of the games are underwhelming. Although, comparing MS to Sega is not really very accurate. I think that at this point it is safe to say that MS is going to be a force this next gen (OPINION).

MY post about car models was made because previously many on this board felt that the 360 would top out at about 100,000 polygons per model display capabilities and I felt that this recent news should inform us that the 360 is very capable of crunching polygons.

[Z]

okay, enough with the X2 comparisons. this is about Lair, which its poly count is higher than anything we heard of by the way. keep it on topic.

for the other topics, open new threads for them.

[Hawk]

I really don't understand this comparison Lair vs. PGR3.
In Lair there are hundreds of shape chancing dragons maybe 60 fps and in PGR3 there are rather static few cars with max 30 fps.

[woundingchaney]

I really don't understand this comparison Lair vs. PGR3.
In Lair there are hundreds of shape chancing dragons maybe 60 fps and in PGR3 there are rather static few cars with max 30 fps.


Earlier in the thread there was a discussion as to the polygon limitations of the 360, thats why I posted this information, I did not intend to distract from the thread, but simply follow through with a point.


:bigpimp:

[The_One]

I really don't understand this comparison Lair vs. PGR3.
In Lair there are hundreds of shape chancing dragons maybe 60 fps and in PGR3 there are rather static few cars with max 30 fps.
Edit/Delete Message I highly doubt Lair was running at 30FPS... Most first gen games for both consoles will most likely be running at 30FPS, and not 60FPS.

[Nerve-Damage]

I highly doubt Lair was running at 30FPS... Most first gen games for both consoles will most likely be running at 30FPS, and not 60FPS.


From all indications the current Sony PS3 Dev-kits are hitting 60fps easily even without the finalized RSX processor. MGS: 4, The Getaway, Lair, and many more real-time demos/footage were reported “60fps” at TGS. I think Sony main goal in designing the PS3 was to make sure it was very efficient (fewer bottlenecks) and powerful enough to give developers the freedom to make visual appealing games without sacrificing frame-rate.

If I remember correctly the real-time footage of Killzone was re-rendered/speedup from 15fps to 60fps because the Alpha PS3 kits contained dual Nvidia 6800 Ultra cards, a 2.4GHz Cell CPU, 16x PCI Bus, and a few other “PC Like” bottlenecks.

The Final PS3 & PS3 Dev-Kits will contain the final RSX (more powerful than dual 6800s), 3.2GHz Cell CPU (possibly faster by some rumors), and the PS3 will use the flexIO bus interface (4-7x times more efficient & faster than 16x PCI Bus interface). So 60fps shouldn’t be a problem for the final Killzone or any other PS3 game. :spiny:

[Z]

in any case, this isn't a sped up video. this is all in-game footage here and it is nothing short of amazing. to pull off such an unbelieveable amount of polys this early gives great optimism for PS3 for being that powerfull and that easy to work with. Factor 5 moved all their current gen projects to next-gen, then soon after they announced exclusive and full support of PS3. they must really like it.