RSX, G70 or Not?

[Danji]

This thread is specifically to see what everyone thinks and collect a poll of it. To see whether or not people think that the RSX is G70 architecture or not. I realise there are other places to discuss this but this is for numbers, for people to discuss nothing but that.

I vote yes. I trust Kutaragi more than I would NVIDIA because they have something to lose by telling people that their video cards are weaker than what's in a PS3 which would be cheaper than the video cards themselves'. They have something to lose, sony doesn't.

Sony does have something to lose by telling people that "Hey, this is a better GeForce 7800 GTX" in that people will think it's just a PC. If you notice, Sony's main goal with the PS3 is to make it replace PC's in people's homes. They keep stating that the "PC is just...inneficient." and "OS's are extensions of work" and that the "PS3 is an entertainment computer." Such comments lend to make people think that the PS3 is high and might while PC is bogged down by various problems. I, myself, believe that with it's custom architecture and supreme processing power it can do this.

Also, there is no way that it's just a faster GeForce 7800GTX because there are parts on it that just are useful at all on the PS3 like video decoders and other things. That is why the option of "a faster GeForce 7800 GTX" isn't on the poll because that's just not feasible at all.

If you have no idea what this topic is concerning then please, for the love of god, do not vote.

[chrismt]

Where's the poll?

[Danji]

It has a system where it takes a while to post it up there, check it again.

[woundingchaney]

I honestly cant vote, the more I think about it the more unsure I am. It just seems to me that if anything awe inspiring or even remotely revolutionary was going on with the PS3 gpu than we would have heard about it by now, but on the other hand there is ample reason to keep it under raps.

Im hoping for the best but just too early to vote (no pun intended).

[Nerve-Damage]

My wishful thinking:
I believe the final RSX will be a hybrid processor (G70 IP/Cell)…meaning the final RSX GPU will contain the NVIDIA G70 IP’s (Intellectual Properties) and have 4-6 additional SPEs on one GPU die.

My wishful thinking specs:
* 3.2GHz Cell CPU
* 1GHz RSX Hybrid processor
* 512MB XDR 2nd Generation Ram
* 2x/4x Blu-Ray Drive.

Anyhow, the RSX will probably share the same G70s IPs, but however contain Sony own specific GPU die-layout design. One thing is for sure…Sony doesn’t need the G70 Mpeg decompression chip thats present in the G70 design (Cell will take care of MPEG decompression). That in-turn would free up a few million transistors leaving extra room for additional pixel/vertex pipelines.

[Danielhq]

[B]
* 2x Blu-Ray Drive.


2x speed? Why not 4x speeds when we are talking about "wishful". That's what I am really hoping for myself :)

[Nerve-Damage]

Why not 4x speeds when we are talking about "wishful". That's what I am really hoping for myself :)

Why not... :)

[raVen]

why not...? because then id have sexual relations with the thing, thats why not.

[casualkiss]

I thought the idea of SPE's on the GPU was rules out because the clock speed would be too slow. Can you have a 3.2GHz Cell and a 0.6GHz shaders/GPU on the same silicon?

Personally, I hope sony takes its time and really make the GPU killer. I can handle a fall release if it would mean the PS3 would be powerful enough to replace my girlfriend.

Besides, by the fall, my nephew will be old enough to receive my second-hand Xbox 360. I get an excuse to buy the PS3 and my Sister gets to lecture her kid about graphic violence.

[O.D.S]

if it would mean the PS3 would be powerful enough to replace my girlfriend.
To bad the PS2 already did that for me...now that shes back she took my controller!!! :realmad

[Theo]

To bad the PS2 already did that for me...now that shes back she took my controller!!! :realmad

=) How did it come to this!?

Be cautious, the machines will replace humanity and rule the world! MWAHAHAHA!!!

[VG Aficionado]

Right now, the poll is 17 against 1 in favour of unique design.

My two cents:

First - It was said at E3 that Cell+RSX combo will be the world's most (!) powerful graphics system and that RSX will be the most powerful Nvidia GPU to date when it releases.

Second - I remember an Nvidia engineer saying in an interview that RSX not only has a higher clock frequency than a 7800 GTX, it also has several times more bandwidth.

Third - Ken Kutaragi said that the system was designed so that there would be no waste of memory due to duplicates in the two separate RAMs - I'm aware cpiasminc stated the contrary, so I'll be curious to see who's totally right on this, if there can be one and only one right point of view, and what drawbacks will have to be overcome in either case.

Four - I really don't think the RSX was designed completely by Nvidia. I'm sure Sony has contributed with some features and technology, mainly to have the RSX efficiently and significantly assisted by Cell, and these are the features that will make RSX shine over the 7xxx family.

[Crossbar]

If the RSX has pixel shaders based on the G70 pixel shaders, does that count as a unique design?

Could you please clarify that, because that is essential for how I will put my vote.

[Heinrich4]

I "see" 2 ways:

* RSX - G70 like with FlexIO for access to the SPEs and main RAM XDRAM (this must "eat" ones 20GB/seg of 35GB/sec).

OBS: Perhaps in this configuration the RSX (550 clock /700 MHz clock GDDR3 interface 128Bits) has about 85/75% of the performance of Geforce 7800GTX (430/600 w interface 256Bits) and about 25/35% more performance that Geforce (7800GTX) with use of the FlexIO.

To "proove" this thesis -> last SDK of july with Cell 2.4GHz + Geforce 7800GTX with acess cell to G70 only 2GB/seg (38.4GB/sec + 2 GB/sec =indicating early 40GB/sec medium bandwidth betwen Cell and RSX?)

** RSX with IP G70 of the Nvidia + SPEs (4 of these) as a compound of "Cell Gpu like" of clear page 10 of the patent of August of 2002.

(Jen Hsu Huang says in january /05... One cell for cpu other to ghraphics... )

[Nerve-Damage]

** RSX with IP G70 of the Nvidia + SPEs (4 of these) as a compound of "Cell Gpu like" of clear page 10 of the patent of August of 2002.

(Jen Hsu Huang says in january /05... One cell for cpu other to ghraphics... )

Thats why so many (me included) believe the RSX GPU will be a hybrid of both worlds (G70/CELL). If this turns out to be true... =-o

[Schmeh]

I "see" 2 ways:

* RSX - G70 like with FlexIO for access to the SPEs and main RAM XDRAM (this must "eat" ones 20GB/seg of 35GB/sec).

OBS: Perhaps in this configuration the RSX (550 clock /350MHz clock GDDR3 interface 128Bits) has about 85/75% of the performance of Geforce 7800GTX (430/600 w interface 256Bits) and about 25/35% more performance that Geforce (7800GTX) with use of the FlexIO.

The memory for the RSX is 700MHz not 350MHz. At 350MHz it would give you only 11.2GB/s of VRAM bandwidth, while 700MHz gives you the 22.4GB/s that is listed in the Sony official specs. That being said it is still less than the 38.4GB/s for the 7800GTX.

[Domination]

I honestly cant vote, the more I think about it the more unsure I am. It just seems to me that if anything awe inspiring or even remotely revolutionary was going on with the PS3 gpu than we would have heard about it by now, but on the other hand there is ample reason to keep it under raps.

Im hoping for the best but just too early to vote (no pun intended).

The best I can tell you is Sony is way more secretive than most competitors you've encountered in the past. Just because they don't say anything does not mean they don't have an answer or aren't on top of it. For example, Sony didn't say anything, not even a single word, about alliancing with nVidia until almost two years later, but did that mean they weren't partnering with them for the next GPU? No. But how many people, including yourself, thought they would be partnering with Toshiba again for another GPU? That's my point. People seem to always underestimate them because they aren't as open to the media where and when they want like every other competitor is. When the proper time comes, I'm sure you will get to see what exactly it is they have at thier disposal behind that dark curtain of theirs.

[tazz3]

i voted for RSX = unique design .
i have read that the RSX is a 48 pipe card

[rpgamer_2k5]

I am looking at a hybrid, but with technology from Nvidia's future GPUs, in addition to the G70. I say this, because the G70 isn't really a significant departure from the 6800; the design-objective of the G70 was to reduce the power requirement and heat. This project was not meant to bring radical changes like the NV42. That is why the head scientist, David Kirk was not overlooking the development of G70. This just might mean that he was participating in the dev't of the RSX.

Think about it:
- Parallel to the G70 dev't (ie. seperate teams)
- Integration with the Cell architecture
- Joint dev't between Sony--a firm that has plenty of experience with GPUs.

In other words, the RSX is going to be something that will overwelm Nvidia if they tried to develop this GPU on their own. It's going to beast, I, no we can feel the aura of the RSX. It's alive, and is currently held in Area 51-hanger, heavily monitored by a brigade of Sony and Nvidia engineers. :D

....It's the 24th of October, damnit. I'm turning crazy. :S

[Heinrich4]

The memory for the RSX is 700MHz not 350MHz. At 350MHz it would give you only 11.2GB/s of VRAM bandwidth, while 700MHz gives you the 22.4GB/s that is listed in the Sony official specs. That being said it is still less than the 38.4GB/s for the 7800GTX.


Im sorry i was not clearly : 350MHz in GDDR3 256Bits (700 in 128Bits interface).

A Test sees in this link* of Geforce 7800GTX with overclock 500MHz and
memo 350MHz GDDR3 (original in 600MHz GDDR3) with 256Bits interface:

E therefore case the RSX is a G70 like under 22.4 + 20GB/second (FlexIO) very probably would be so effective or more (without Cpu bound) bandwidth of the Geforce 7800GTX.

*
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21295&highlight=7800
http://www.beyond3d.withforumshowthread.php?t=24797&page=3

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[xbdestroya]

350MHz in GDDR3.

A Test sees in this link* of Geforce 7800GTX with over 500MHz and
memo 350MHz GDDR3 (original in 600MHz GDDR3):

E therefore case the RSX is a G70 like under 22.4 + 20GB/second (it saw FlexIO) very probably would be so effective or more
(without Cpu bound) how much bandwidth of the Geforce
7800GTX.


The memory for the GDDR3 banked off of RSX is indeed 700 MHz; the 350 MHz thing was a test wih a G70 conducted in order to try to mimic the bandwidth environment RSX will be dealing with. It of course falls short in that tries to replicate a straight G70--->RSX chip when we know there will be a lot of differences both in the tasks it is burdened with and the way it interacts with the CPU, but regardless it was a test.

Anyway I say we just have to wait and see what's up.

[Infernal]

If the RSX was just a slighty faster G70 then wouldnt the RSX have been finished a LONG time ago... I mean honestly how could you think its just an overclocked G70. Now dont get me wrong, I also dont believe that the RSX is a crazy hybrid gpu with another cell processor built right onto either. But the RSX has to be something atleast a little more different than a higher clock speed or else they wouldnt have had a seperate team working on it, and it wouldnt have taken this long to be finished.

[Grandia]

Faster G70

[Red_Eyes]

The whole idea is to trick everybody, even the competition, that it's just a G70. Then when the times come, it's something totally different, something around 2 times more powerful.

[Theo]

If the RSX was just a slighty faster G70 then wouldnt the RSX have been finished a LONG time ago... I mean honestly how could you think its just an overclocked G70. Now dont get me wrong, I also dont believe that the RSX is a crazy hybrid gpu with another cell processor built right onto either. But the RSX has to be something atleast a little more different than a higher clock speed or else they wouldnt have had a seperate team working on it, and it wouldnt have taken this long to be finished.


I agree.

I believe the RSX will basicly be unique in design (specialized to work with cell), even though I would not be surprised, if it will share some things with the G70.

[cpiasminc]

Define "unique"...

I'm of the opinion that the majority of its core architecture will be pure G70. But that's a different thing than saying that it's nothing more than a fast G70. If anything the fact that it needs a FlexIO bus interface as opposed to a PCI-E one makes it inherently not identical to a G70. I still expect its core shader pipes, SMT logic, register files, caching schemes, etc. to all be G70-based though, and that's a good 85% of the transistors by itself, if not more.

I'm not sure what the whole "works well with CELL" business is all about. As long as you've got a good bandwidth link between the two, you can work pretty well with any CPU. And having software-preprocessed vertex data or reading back framebuffer copies or something is hardly new stuff...

[Danji]

Unique would be something other than what the G70 is. I guess anything but a carbon copy of the GeForce FX 7800GXT would be unique in this sense..I guess the poll didn't have enough options..then again, multiple choice can never convey the feelings of those being polled properly.

I myself think it's going to be something other than the G70 architecture so that's why I voted unique.

[Theo]

Unique would be something other than what the G70 is. I guess anything but a carbon copy of the GeForce FX 7800GXT would be unique in this sense..I guess the poll didn't have enough options..then again, multiple choice can never convey the feelings of those being polled properly.

I myself think it's going to be something other than the G70 architecture so that's why I voted unique.


Yes, this is what I meant with unique.

and @ cpiasminc: As you know I have very little knowledge about these things unlike you my friend. Obviously all I can say is, I can assume that the GPU has to be specialized to work with the cell in some ways no matter if it demands lesser or major specialisation. If you say all it needs to work with any CPU is "good bandwith", then I believe you and I have to admit, that it's not much what it takes to work well with the cell, but it still counts.