XDR To Be Outpaced By GDDR4 Already?

[Nerve-Damage]

XDR feeling the heat from GDDR4!! (http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/10/27/gddr4_xdr_memory/)


Samsung yesterday surprised with an announcement that it has begun sampling of GDDR4 memory, which may become the next-generation memory technology for graphics chips. Today, the company told TG Daily that GDDR4 in fact will be fast enough to reach the speed of Rambus' XDR memory technology. In some cases, GDDR4 will be able to even outpace XDR, Mueez Deen, marketing director for graphics, mobile and consumer DRAM, said.

Such a scenario could be graphics card with a 256-bit bus. "GDDR4 will offer a higher performance on such a card than 4-channel XDR," Deen said. He added that GDDR4's performance climbs rapidly, if hardware designers are willing to spend the necessary pin count. On lower pin-counts, XDR has an advantage: "XDR provides a much higher bandwidth per pin," he said Samsung confirmed in May of this year that it will be shipping XDR memory to Sony for the Playstation 3 game console. While the current market situation is reminiscent of the battle between Rambus DRAM and the victorious DDR DRAM, Deen said that he believes there will be a place for XDR in the market beyond the Playstation 3. In the end, it will be up to graphic chip developers to decide which memory technology will be become the next mass market graphics memory.

While Deen said that the production cost of XDR and GDDR4 may be comparable, he mentioned that GDDR4 "is an evolutionary step over GDDR3" and therefore developers may be more comfortable working with this technology. A current per-pin performance advantage will not be enough for XDR to succeed, Deen believes: "The bandwidth of XDR needs to increase," he said


Questions:
1. Should Sony upgrade the PS3 Vram GDDR3 to GDDR4?
2. Should Sony upgrade the PS3 XDR (generation 1) to XDR2?

[lilkoy123]

damn nerve, you're on fire with the news...good job, keep em coming.
just don't get a nerve damage looking for them.

[Garfunkel]

Keep it coming Nerve!

[Crossbar]

XDR feeling the heat from GDDR4!! (http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/10/27/gddr4_xdr_memory/)



Questions:
1. Should Sony upgrade the PS3 Vram GDDR3 to GDDR4?
2. Should Sony upgrade the PS3 XDR (generation 1) to XDR2?
1. No
2. No
These are the answers if you want the PS3 to go in to production in 2006.

[CrumCon]

Well this is a good news, they may lower XDR price to be competetive with GDDR4.. so PS3 will use dual 256XDR :)

But come on.. XDR is more then enought..

Didnt sony already ships the final kit? they cannot change ps3 specs anymore could they?

[casualkiss]

Would it make such a huge difference? Is memory speed the bottlekneck in PS3?

[CrumCon]

No, its not the bottlekneck of ps3, we dont even know if there's a bottlekneck (yet).

But replacing RSX <-------> 256MB GDDR3 VRAM @700MHz

with:

RSX <-------> 256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz , would be awesome.

so both Cell and RSX will use 256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz

[xbdestroya]

There's always a bottleneck - and honestly the PS3 could use more graphics bandwidth if it wants to soundly defeat the 360 in that area.

But if we're talking about future RAM technologies, XDR-2 has it all over GDDR4, so in that sense, Rambus still has the edge as far as the technology envelope goes. :smoke:

http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=17&m_articles_articleid=118

[D3adcell]

Well they could always upgrade the system with new technology as its being released. But then the playstation 3 would never come out as there are always newer and better technologies. If the ps3 is going to look as the videos show with the hardware it has now, Then no I don't see a reason to change. I don't want to pay even more for the system for something that probably won't really be needed until the ps4 etc.

[cpiasminc]

1. Should Sony upgrade the PS3 Vram GDDR3 to GDDR4?
2. Should Sony upgrade the PS3 XDR (generation 1) to XDR2?
1. Note that it says "begun sampling" of GDDR4... From sampling to mass production is not a short time span, and it probably won't be soon enough for PS3, especially considering that changing the memory interface now would mean having to re-do portions of the RSX design and then start over from tape-out (which means an additional 6 months on top of the delay to get GDDR4 available).
2. See number 1. (replace "RSX" with "CELL" and "GDDR4" with "XDR2", and you'll get the general idea)

Note that Samsung still produces both XDR and GDDR, and will probably continue to do so. XDR will still have the cost advantage even if the DRAMs are slightly more expensive just because it reduces the pincount greatly and simplifies board design.

Would it make such a huge difference? Is memory speed the bottlekneck in PS3?
Any electronic device on the scale and scope of a game console that happens to have memory will have memory that is too slow. In other words, yes, memory speed is a bottleneck for PS3 because CPU performance in general grows several tens of times faster than memory, and that has been going on since before we crossed the 100 MHz line, and will continue ever after.

Whether it will make a big difference or not... I'd have to say, not likely. Diminishing returns and all, and the tradeoffs will basically make it that much smaller of a return.

[Z]

what Cp said. I was going to answer it but he got to it faster (and much better than what I would have said). ;)

[woundingchaney]

Great news cant wait to replace my mother board and ram (damn expensive pc gaming). :help:

[xbdestroya]

Great news cant wait to replace my mother board and ram (damn expensive pc gaming). :help:

No no, this is just for video cards. The desktop will be on DDR-2 for a while to come I imagine.

[woundingchaney]

No no, this is just for video cards. The desktop will be on DDR-2 for a while to come I imagine.


Oh ok got ya, for some reason I thought it was a system ram change (should read more carefully huh).

[xbdestroya]

Oh ok got ya, for some reason I thought it was a system ram change (should read more carefully huh).

Well the consoles could use it for system memory if they liked (and launched late enough), but memory on the desktop is always a fair bit behind the leading edge.

[Crossbar]

If the memory bandwidth of the GDDR3 memory (22 GB/s) was a serious bottleneck Sony could easily increase it without changing memory type. They could change to Samsung 1000 MHz memory and get 32 GB/s.
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/Support/ebrochure/memory/ds_gddr3_050311.pdf

But there are several reasons why Sony hardly will change to such a new cutting edge memory type: Cost and the fact that they need second and probably third sources that have delivered memories which Sony could verify.

If you are designing a device which will be sold in all climate zones, you want to make sure that the third part components you buy is up for the task. Stability is very important. It´s not a coincident that the top server CPUs and memories are always slower than the corresponding desktop variants.

[Domination]

XDR feeling the heat from GDDR4!! (http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/10/27/gddr4_xdr_memory/)



Questions:
1. Should Sony upgrade the PS3 Vram GDDR3 to GDDR4?
2. Should Sony upgrade the PS3 XDR (generation 1) to XDR2?

There was an artical posted here a year or so that said something about GDDR4 being faster than XDR. I guess now it's been proven.

[Rukawa]

Question
Is 2.5 Ghz GDDR4 base clock is 625mhz (QDR)or 1.25 Ghz(DDR). Its strange why desktop PC base clock speed didnt much improved.
A current per-pin performance advantage will not be enough for XDR to succeed,

At least XDR still have advantage on per pin performance, the other advntage is Latency.
IS FB-DIMM to costly for console.

[CrumCon]

and XDR is in production for a long time now

[tazz3]

we all know that this hardware stuff get better every day.
sony should stay with Vram GDDR3.
AND THE MEMORY IT HAS.
because the new stuff is be a lot of money and over kill for what the ps3 need it for

[jaxmkii]

Well this is a good news, they may lower XDR price to be competetive with GDDR4.. so PS3 will use dual 256XDR :)

But come on.. XDR is more then enought..

Didnt sony already ships the final kit? they cannot change ps3 specs anymore could they?
im not a programor but i know if they chnge tam it might @#$% with things... but i see no harm if they simply bump up its capacity?...

[jaxmkii]

Great news cant wait to replace my mother board and ram (damn expensive pc gaming). :help: ya know scine 2002 my 1024MB of 1066mhz RAMBUS and a "out dated" P4 3.06ghz fsb of 533mhz have been running things smooth with the help of a 256Mb ATi9800 pro card i normaly upgrade yearly but why bother?... I was going to update foe Doom3 but hell it ran 40 fps in ULTRA MODE! what the hell carmack sayed you would need a 512Mb card?!? must be the 1066mhz RAMBUS :1337: this one has been performing flawlessly!,,, well except when the power lead of the Vcard burntup and stank up my apartment. its hardwired now :3eye:

[ACE0000]

ya know scine 2002 my 1024MB of 1066mhz RAMBUS and a "out dated" P4 3.06ghz fsb of 533mhz have been running things smooth with the help of a 256Mb ATi9800 pro card i normaly upgrade yearly but why bother?... I was going to update foe Doom3 but hell it ran 40 fps in ULTRA MODE! what the hell carmack sayed you would need a 512Mb card?!? must be the 1066mhz RAMBUS :1337: this one has been performing flawlessly!,,, well except when the power lead of the Vcard burntup and stank up my apartment. its hardwired now :3eye:

lol you have basically the same PC as me, as far as RAM processor and video card, and mine also still runs any game smoothly even with fairly high graphics settings.

[Crossbar]

Here's some news on XDR and XDR2. Seems like GDDR4 will probably get broader acceptance than XDR.
Taiwan DRAM industry remains indifferent to Rambus XDR and XDR2
Taiwan DRAM vendors are not rushing to express their optimism regarding Rambus memory solutions. Last week at the Rambus Developer Forum (RDF) in Taipei, the company promoted its memory technologies, XDR and XDR2 (which was presented as next generation XDR). Launched earlier this year, XDR2 is projected to enable data rates starting at 8GHz, and it incorporates features including micro-threading and adaptive timing. According to Rambus, the company is now in talks with DRAM vendors, including Taiwan companies, about XDR and XDR2 licensing. However, when asked about names, Rambus did not mention any particular company, and no player in the Taiwan DRAM industry confirmed holding talks with Rambus.

There are currently three DRAM vendors, Samsung, Elpida and Toshiba, producing XDR DRAM chips, Rambus stated. XDR clock generators are manufactured by Texas Instruments, IDT and Cypress. XDR2 is now available for licensing, but its support is not yet announced by any DRAM vendor.

Rambus is hoping that XDR2-based systems will reach a memory bandwidth of up to an impressive 256GB/sec, presumably in 2007-2009. The company is still confident that the XDR architecture can be suitable for desktop PC applications, according to Victor Echevarria, product marketing manager of the Rambus platform solutions group. However, XDR2 will most likely begin its market expansion in other areas, such as graphics applications and digital television, he said.

The new memory interface features advanced technologies, including micro-threading, adaptive timing and transmit equalization. Announced earlier this year, micro-threading is a method to improve memory system efficiency by partitioning a traditional DRAM core into independently addressable banks, Rambus explained. Called FlexPhase, the adaptive timing feature simplifies board design by allowing memory channel wires to be unequal lengths with no need to precisely match them, and this technology will work at faster speed in XDR2, according to Rambus. Transmit equalization represents a known way of canceling the so-called inter-symbol interference (ISI), which is a form of interference that occurs when reflections of a signal interfere with the original signal. Implemented as an output circuit exploiting a feedback-based concept, it also helps to minimize the negative effect of signal attenuation.

Although XDR2 looks promising from a technology viewpoint, its support by the whole community of DRAM vendors is not clear. Taiwan now has four members among the top ten global DRAM makers, and none of these four was able to clearly confirm its wish for licensing XDR or XDR2. Winbond said that is has no plan to develop or market XDR DRAM in the foreseeable future. Nanya stated that it is not currently involved in any talks with Rambus and has no plans to produce XDR and XDR2 DRAM now, or in the future. Powerchip and ProMOS were unavailable for comment.

In related news, Rambus declared its intention to prove that a collusion of leading DRAM vendors, including Hynix and Micron, discouraged large PC brands from adopting its memory technology, called RDRAM, from 1999-2002.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20051101PR201.html

[xbdestroya]

Here's some news on XDR and XDR2. Seems like GDDR4 will probably get broader acceptance than XDR.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20051101PR201.html

I'm not surprised at that news, there's a blood feud between Rambus and the Taiwanese RAM makers that will probably never end. I see Samsung and the Japanese RAM houses as being the ones to bring us XDR-2 if it ever comes. Plus, I wouldn't be too surprised if Cell catches on that we see future revisions use XDR-2 instead of XDR as their RAM.