View Full Version : DVD format matters: Xbox 360 VS. PS3
Nerve-Damage
10-29-2005, 04:37 AM
DVD format matters: Xbox 360 VS. PS3 (http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000573065614/)
http://img.engadget.com/common/images/3060000000051330.GIF?0.8881771250153674
In report dated October 25, equity research analysts Jason Kraft and Chris Kwak of Susquehanna Financial Group look at the Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD debate in the context of the industry’s major shifts to new formats. They write, “We believe DVD standards could be the defining issue for next-gen consoles.”
Here’s how they see it playing out:
* First, they take the hardware-centric position that “console transitions, in our view, embody transformations in storage media.” In other words, consoles are defined less by their software and more by their fundamental constraint: how much content developers can squeeze into a game.
* In reflecting on the Sony PlayStation vs. the Nintendo 64, they note that the PS used a CD format with a 650 MB capacity, whereas Nintendo delivered a superior user experience (namely, no load times) via cartridge format. Unfortunately, cartridges had a maximum storage capacity of around 128 MB and were significantly more expensive to produce.
* In the current generation, all three consoles use some form of DVD, neutralizing differentiation based on content factors and increasing the importance of other features and factors such as “timing, platform continuity, and exclusive games.” The PS2 grabbed market share early by launching early, and spoke to the now-mature former Nintendo fanbase with Grand Theft Auto III. Microsoft’s Xbox lost out by launching last, but did well with Halo.
* In the console war now underway, the authors believe that we’re about to see a format war that’s more in line with the battle between the PS1 and the N64. They write, “Notwithstanding the many advantages of Blu-ray, we anticipate the Blu-ray Disc could disadvantage Sony as the price of Blu-ray Disc games and movies are expected to be higher than HD-DVD games and movies.”
* However, if Blu-ray is launched successfully, and if games somehow start regularly clocking in at 30GB and 40GB (far beyond the capacity of a DVD drive), then developers may be forced to “dumb down” PS3 content for the Xbox 360.
*Furthemore, if “consumers face the choice of an $800 Blu-ray Disc player or a $500 PS3 with Blu-ray when PS3 launches” some portion may opt for the PS3, even if they’re not gamers, and this could expand the market for games.
The report has one glaring omission: the Xbox 360 hard drive. With third party hard drives that could be measured in hundreds of gigabytes or even terabytes and with online distribution of game content to those hard drives, this whole format war might be a red herring.
masonite
10-29-2005, 07:41 AM
* First, they take the hardware-centric position that “console transitions, in our view, embody transformations in storage media.” In other words, consoles are defined less by their software and more by their fundamental constraint: how much content developers can squeeze into a game.
* In reflecting on the Sony PlayStation vs. the Nintendo 64, they note that the PS used a CD format with a 650 MB capacity, whereas Nintendo delivered a superior user experience (namely, no load times) via cartridge format. Unfortunately, cartridges had a maximum storage capacity of around 128 MB and were significantly more expensive to produce.
* In the console war now underway, the authors believe that we’re about to see a format war that’s more in line with the battle between the PS1 and the N64. They write, “Notwithstanding the many advantages of Blu-ray, we anticipate the Blu-ray Disc could disadvantage Sony as the price of Blu-ray Disc games and movies are expected to be higher than HD-DVD games and movies.”
* However, if Blu-ray is launched successfully, and if games somehow start regularly clocking in at 30GB and 40GB (far beyond the capacity of a DVD drive), then developers may be forced to “dumb down” PS3 content for the Xbox 360.
is it just me or are these two quotes contradictory?
first they say that the constrants of N64's cartridge content was one of the deciding factors for why they lost out to ps1, and then they use xbox's DVD contraints as a reason why ps3 will lose out against 360?
they have a point with the price though, whether or not blu-ray prices can come down enough is going to be a factor. but on the other hand, how much more will it really cost to create a blu-ray disc? will it be more expensive to put a game on 2 DVD's or one blu-ray disc?
CrumCon
10-29-2005, 07:58 AM
X360 is not going to use HD DVD.
So they will release HD DVD version in the future?? what about tens of millions Xbox360 units which could not play game that would come in HD DVD?
nope.. MS released X360 way too soon.
Anyway.. Microsoft talked about HD-era.. but to me.. without using next-gen DVD.. there is no HD DVD era.
1 minute of true HD screen is very big..
xbdestroya
10-29-2005, 07:59 AM
Those analysts are out of their minds. What does HD-DVD have to do with anything? Microsoft hasn't announced support for it, and frankly with blu-ray set to win the war, I doubt they ever will.
$500 PS3?
It just goes to show you that people in positions like analysts can sometimes be well behind the information curve that even we here on the forums enjoy.
To anyone wondering if these random statements by them means that they have a lead on some sort of information that we don't - believe me, they don't.
Clixx
10-29-2005, 08:01 AM
A while ago Panasonic announced that they found a way to cut production costs of
BD-ROMs, to be almost as cheap as DVDs. In which case it's almost certain that making
2 DVDs will cost more than 1 Blu-ray Disc.
we anticipate the Blu-ray Disc could disadvantage Sony as the price of Blu-ray Disc games and movies are expected to be higher than HD-DVD games and movies.
other than them being behind the time with the prices (heck they still put a BD with a cartridge for God sake!) I want to know where the hell 'HD-DVD games' come from? for the entire next generation there will be only BD games and DVD games- unless they are talking about a crazy PC publisher that will risk releasing a game on HD-DVD. as far as I can tell, they are focusing only on consoles.
really, sometimes such analysts are a let down...
venomv
10-29-2005, 03:02 PM
Thats what I was wondering about, I saw that and thought that they removed the cover for BD. And I highly doubt any PC games will come on HD-DVD since very few will even use DVD.
Raitei
10-29-2005, 09:28 PM
well, if i recall, one could get a great quality dvd disc and case for less than 10% of what the games are being sold. Even if 360's games cost less to produce this is not saying the game itself is going less
The_One
10-29-2005, 11:48 PM
One of the biggest thing that bugged people this gen was load times: With the huge amount of info that needs to be loaded next-gen, the DVD would simply not deliver enough speed, and Xbox 360 owners will probably be able to enjoy a cup of coffee or tea while they wait for their Halo 3's first level to load.
speed stick
10-30-2005, 01:30 AM
Those analysts are out of their minds. What does HD-DVD have to do with anything? Microsoft hasn't announced support for it, and frankly with blu-ray set to win the war, I doubt they ever will.
Microsoft has been supoorting HD-DVD for a while now. And with the games on the 360, they won't be on HD-DVD's, just normal DVD-DL.
xbdestroya
10-30-2005, 01:36 AM
Microsoft has been supoorting HD-DVD for a while now. And with the games on the 360, they won't be on HD-DVD's, just normal DVD-DL.
Support as in a HD-DVD drive in the 360. ;)
This article *is* about the consoles afterall!
speed stick
10-30-2005, 01:39 AM
^Actually they have announced support for HD-DVD drive in future versions when the cost comes down.
Domination
10-30-2005, 02:05 AM
^Actually they have announced support for HD-DVD drive in future versions when the cost comes down.
That was in the pass. Since Warner jumped ship, Microsoft seems to be turning away from even HD-DVD in favor of digital content. The reason be, HD-DVD seems to be loosing support to Blu Ray, leading to a useless, expensive format that only Microsoft will be left supporting.
Viper
10-30-2005, 03:06 AM
They also have assumed storage capacity figures for the Revolution. No one knows that yet a but we all know how Nintendo likes to use propriety formats.
The only thing we do know is they are 12cm DVD discs (Remember the GC mini discs were also a form of DVD so they shouldn't be assuming anything.)
gnznroses
10-30-2005, 03:48 AM
One of the biggest thing that bugged people this gen was load times: With the huge amount of info that needs to be loaded next-gen, the DVD would simply not deliver enough speed, and Xbox 360 owners will probably be able to enjoy a cup of coffee or tea while they wait for their Halo 3's first level to load.
no, something i leanred just a week or two ago, even a 4x BD drive is only equal to DVD speeds. it's no faster.
Effulgence
10-30-2005, 04:40 AM
Why would blueray disks be expensive? I read a long time ago that they can be made out of a high percentage of recycled paper and are extremely cheap to produce.
speed stick
10-30-2005, 07:50 AM
^Paper? I don't think they can make Blu-Ray discs out of paper. So Microsoft is changing from HD-DVD to Blu-Ray. Interesting.
Helios
10-30-2005, 07:51 AM
Why would blueray disks be expensive? I read a long time ago that they can be made out of a high percentage of recycled paper and are extremely cheap to produce.
Yeah I seem to remember some crap like that too. It seems that whole debacle just vanished under the radar.
xbdestroya
10-30-2005, 07:57 AM
^Actually they have announced support for HD-DVD drive in future versions when the cost comes down.
No no, they never announced support - they said they might consider it when the price comes down. Two totally different things in the high-spped, high-spin world consoles. ;)
And for anyone who wants the paper nostalgia, here's one of the articles from back in the day:
Paper blu-ray discs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3639585.stm)
rpgamer_2k5
10-30-2005, 02:06 PM
no, something i leanred just a week or two ago, even a 4x BD drive is only equal to DVD speeds. it's no faster.
DVD 16x: 21.6MB/s
BDROM 4x: 27.0MB/s
It would be nice, if Sony could bring the speed up to 6x, but 8x speeds are being planned for the PC. However, what we need to understand is that Xbox 360's loading will be longer than the original Xbox. Add to that, the seek rateand layer change times are much higher on the DVD; it's going to be odd for many users.
Domination
10-30-2005, 05:27 PM
^Paper? I don't think they can make Blu-Ray discs out of paper. So Microsoft is changing from HD-DVD to Blu-Ray. Interesting.
Oh yes you can.-------> paper Blu Ray disc (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3639585.stm)
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40056000/jpg/_40056265_paper_dvd203afp.jpg
There are also Blu Ray disc that are made out of cornstarch (http://www.dvhardware.net/article3413.html)
http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/images/corn_blu-ray.jpg
And no, Microsoft is not supporting Blu Ray the last time I heard. They not only see it as too expensive, but it prevents them from streaming HD content from PCs using a blu Ray format. Since they think HD-DVD is dying and Blu Ray not being a flexible format, they have choosen to abandon both formats. I wouldn't believe that 100%, though since Microsoft said the samething about other things in which they chose to adopt after it became a major issue users and supporters.
Glacier
10-30-2005, 05:55 PM
Here is a piece of an article that may shed some light on the technical aspects of both differing formats; highlighting the reason of the discrepancy between their production costs:
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000623059130/
So here’s the technical nitty gritty before we drop the graphs n’ charts on ya. Both systems use the same kind of 405nm wavelength blue-violet laser, but their optics differ in two ways. Since the Blu-ray disc has a tighter track pitch (the single thread of data that spirals from the inside of the disc all the way out—think grooves on a 12-inch vinyl single vs. an Elvis Costello full-length album), it can hold more pits (those microscopic 0s and 1s) on the same size disc as HD DVD even with a laser of the same wavelength.
The differing track pitch of the Blu-ray disc makes its pickup apertures differ, however—0.65 for HD DVD vs. 0.85 for Blu-ray—thus also making the two pickups technically incompatible despite using lasers of the same type. HD DVD discs also have a different surface layer (the clear plastic layer on the surface of the data—what you get fingerprints and scratches on) from Blu-ray discs. HD DVD use a 0.6 mm-thick surface layer, the same as DVD, while Blu-ray has a much smaller 0.1mm layer to help enable the laser to focus with that 0.85 aperture.
Herein lies the issues associated with the higher cost of Blu-ray discs. This thinner surface layer is what makes the discs cost more; because Blu-ray discs do not share the same surface layer thickness of DVDs, costly production facilities must be modified or replaced in order to produce the discs. A special hard coating must also be applied to Blu-ray discs, so their surface is sufficiently resilient enough to protect the data a mere 0.1mm beneath—this also drives the cost up. The added benefit of keeping the data layer closer to the surface, however, is more room for extra layers.
Still with us? No? Blu-ray discs are more expensive, but hold more data—there, that’s all.
http://xs52.xs.to/pics/05430/276367828Why.jpg
The source: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/article/0,,2076_4137_276332769,00.html
Junox50
10-30-2005, 07:58 PM
DVD 16x: 21.6MB/s
BDROM 4x: 27.0MB/s
It would be nice, if Sony could bring the speed up to 6x, but 8x speeds are being planned for the PC. However, what we need to understand is that Xbox 360's loading will be longer than the original Xbox. Add to that, the seek rateand layer change times are much higher on the DVD; it's going to be odd for many users.
So I guess this means games that use Blu ray discs will have faster loading times?
xbdestroya
10-30-2005, 08:32 PM
So I guess this means games that use Blu ray discs will have faster loading times?
Well, they will if:
Games have the data written on the outer edge going in vs the inner area going out... or if Sony puts a 4x or greater blu-ray drive in the PS3.
Glacier
10-30-2005, 08:36 PM
So I guess this means games that use Blu ray discs will have faster loading times?
No doubt about that. As mentioned at E3, Blu-ray will be eight times faster than standard DVD. This how technology works, it gets better with time. Unlike politics which is always going down. :cheers:
Games have the data written on the outer edge going in vs the inner area going out... or if Sony puts a 4x or greater blu-ray drive in the PS3.
Does it make any difference which way the data is written, inward or outward?
Ducey
10-30-2005, 09:36 PM
Cheers for that find glacier. I always did wonder about that
xbdestroya
10-30-2005, 09:47 PM
Does it make any difference which way the data is written, inward or outward?
Well, in some ways it does, but hey implementation/complexity-wise who knows? GameCube's games were written in just such a manner I believe, out-in; it assists with anti-piracy attempts among other things.
Data is read faster off of the disc on the outer-edges; a 16x speed DVD drive isn't going to read at that speed close in, it has to get farther out to get close to it's theoretical maximum. Since blu-ray discs have a ton of capacity, Sony would actually have the option to use the outer bands of the disc if they felt read times were of crucial importance.
Normal discs are written inward to out, however. Since the blu-ray drive in PS3 will be reading BD movies on an in-out basis, having games done in the reverse may be impossible. But truthfully this is an area I'm not that well read-up on. Maybe one of the harcore A/V guys can chime in on this.
Nodieza
11-12-2005, 02:52 AM
My dad for some reason HATES sony so he always tells me all the "bad stuff" that sony is going through and today he was telling me how Sony was getting sued for some protection on a disk format, he wasn't being specific, but he said it spawned worms on the internet and destroyed like 5 computers.... Does anyone know anything about this?... my dad IS crazy by the way so if theirs nothing I'll believe you ^.^
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4424254.stm
Sephiroth_VII
11-12-2005, 11:53 AM
Can anyone find the old thread about 360 only having 7 GB of space?
I seem to have forgotten where it is.
there isn't a specific thread about it. someone notice it from the X2 spec sheet.
I'll try looking for that.
360's DVD's are 3.5GB per layer. Also much slower seek and refocus times than Blu-Ray. The plot thickens....
Final dvd specs:
Dual-layer, 3.5 GB layer
15 MB/s outer edge, 6 MB/s inner edge
110-115ms average seek, 240ms full stroke, 140ms 1/3rd stroke
75 ms laser refocus for layer change
http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEFpFlZApktdrRCUeP.php
the man has spoken!
I have asked this a few times with no answer, why wouldn't MS use simple DVD-9 especially since Box used them? why go with less? the difference isn't big anyway yet never the less. I don't understand.
VG Aficionado
11-12-2005, 02:59 PM
Those are awful specifications! Those seek times make me think that drive is ultra-cheap. And storage capacity is even more limited than original Xbox DVD's capacity. I can't believe the media they're using for next generation is so bad. There's nothing next-gen about it to begin with!
I believe they are DVD-9's but restricted by every game having heavy copy protection, Live-enabled etc. etc.
Danielhq
11-12-2005, 03:24 PM
Also much slower seek and refocus times than Blu-Ray.
What are the numbers for Blu-ray? I have not seen them anywhere myself and would really like to know
saxdawg00
11-12-2005, 04:04 PM
What are the numbers for Blu-ray? I have not seen them anywhere myself and would really like to know
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#2.3
Sephiroth_VII
11-12-2005, 04:16 PM
Thx.
I couldn't find them either.
Chris Metal
11-12-2005, 07:20 PM
This is the official site of the Blu-ray association if anyone wants to visit it. this is not blu-ray.com incase you're wondering. Lots of information.
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/
saxdawg00
11-13-2005, 01:32 AM
This is the official site of the Blu-ray association if anyone wants to visit it. this is not blu-ray.com incase you're wondering. Lots of information.
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/
Thanks!
kaphwan
11-13-2005, 02:16 AM
There are also Blu Ray disc that are made out of cornstarch
What about a ps3 game about corn, that is made of corn?
Or maybe if you hate the game, it doubles as a tasty snack?
The possibilities are endless.
Nodieza
11-13-2005, 04:26 PM
Mmmm Killzone somehow tastes better than it looks!!!! such a CORNEY joke I know... ha ha ha.... aha...ugh....um... Korn rocks!!....
just keep a scare-crow out your window just in case....
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