MS won't use HD-DVDs for games

[haggisns]

Hi,

thought this was interesting:

Inquirer Article (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=27372)

seems that Xbox360 will never use HD-DVDs to hold games (game content) which means games are forced to work with 4.7 GB total or the user has to do disc swapping (how trite).

[CrumCon]

Well its obvious they are not going to use HD-DVD

How are the early millions Xbox360 units which could not play HD-DVD games in the future?

[tazz3]

this is an old story.
the 360 will only use the HD-DVD for watching moives

[haggisns]

It was obvious they were not going to use HD-DVD in the beginning, yes.

Before this article I presumed the newer XBox360 with HD-DVDs drives would have games put on HD-DVD, thats not the case, and that is signifcant news.

4 to 5 years from now, XBox360 owners will still be using normal DVDs. Imagine in 4 years the content size of games.

They'll have to come out with a 5 disc carousel version of XBox360 if they don't want people having having to get off the couch every 10 minutes.

[Killing Moon]

There's also the "confirmation" article on it from gamesindustry.biz; one of the leading headlines for the day. Either way, it's very disappointing from a development standpoint.

[xbdestroya]

Guys there could never have been games put out on HD-DVD, without an offer by Microsoft to upgrade the existing 360 consoles for free. Besides just being a ridiculous move on MS' part period, it would have brought a massive class-action lawsuit down on Microsoft - unless truly they offered identical SKU's of the games, one on DVD and one on HD-DVD.

In fact, I don't think a 360 will come out with an HD-DVD drive period; it just doesn't look like HD-DVD is going to be worth it a year from now with blu-ray's seeming assured victory.

[Killing Moon]

Guys there could never have been games put out on HD-DVD, without an offer by Microsoft to upgrade the existing 360 consoles for free. Besides just being a ridiculous move on MS' part period, it would have brought a massive class-action lawsuit down on Microsoft - unless truly they offered identical SKU's of the games, one on DVD and one on HD-DVD.

In fact, I don't think a 360 will come out with an HD-DVD drive period; it just doesn't look like HD-DVD is going to be worth it a year from now with blu-ray's seeming assured victory.
Well in that context (which I never really thought about completely, admittedly), I do guess that you're right.

[CrumCon]

unless truly they offered identical SKU's of the games, one on DVD and one on HD-DVD.


Well if MS wants to take the loss.. But if not.. developers aint stupid to put each of their games on two format just for Xbox360.. you do know how much it would cost for them.

[speed stick]

seems that Xbox360 will never use HD-DVDs to hold games (game content) which means games are forced to work with 4.7 GB total or the user has to do disc swapping (how trite).

Its actually 8.5 GB not 4.5 GB. This is a problem but Microsoft does use a really good compresion technology.

[cybergrue]

Didn't Rockstar say they compleatly filled up a dual layer DVD with data for gta:ls, and further stated that they could have made the game look a bit better if they had a bit more space on the disk? I tried googling, but couldn't find it.

Anyways, if current gen games are filling up a dvd, won't next gen games have this problem as well? Things are not looking good for the 360.

[CrumCon]

HD games on DVD is not going to work my friend, there is no HD era without the successor of DVD.

[Domination]

During an interview with Japanese magazine Famitsu Xbox, he answered many of the questions raised by Bill Gates' earlier statement that the Xbox 360 may feature HD-DVD support later in its life, though certainly not on release. During the interview Maruyama appended the comment by saying that it was a possibility that HD-DVD would be added, "but it won't have any relationship to gaming."

Well, that certainly doesn't sound like good news. What would be the point of supporting it then? I believe these guys are going to flip flop until one of the formats are either fully supported or completely abandoned.

[jako]

HD games on DVD is not going to work my friend, there is no HD era without the successor of DVD.
That is what I am understanding yhanks to this thread.
But what about multi-platorm games ? how can you have the same game on an XBX360 and a PS3 if, on one side you have 8,7GB and on one side 50GB ?
Will multiplatform games for PS3 will use only a regular DVD ?
Can someone answer theses questions ?

[sif]

360's DVD's are 3.5GB per layer. Also much slower seek and refocus times than Blu-Ray. The plot thickens....

Final dvd specs:
Dual-layer, 3.5 GB layer
15 MB/s outer edge, 6 MB/s inner edge
110-115ms average seek, 240ms full stroke, 140ms 1/3rd stroke
75 ms laser refocus for layer change
Link (http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEFpFlZApktdrRCUeP.php)

[xbdestroya]

Well, that certainly doesn't sound like good news. What would be the point of supporting it then? I believe these guys are going to flip flop until one of the formats are either fully supported or completely abandoned.

The point would just be to offer HD-movie playback it seems.

@Jako: Good question as to multi-console games. Probably any multi-console games there are will be designed on a multi-DVD plan for 360, and then brought to PS3 on a single disc.

@Sif: Great info!

[Viper]

What the? 7GB? You mean to tell me the Rev will have a larger medium capacity than the X360? Wow, I didn't think MS could blunder much further.

[Domination]

The point would just be to offer HD-movie playback it seems.

@Jako: Good question as to multi-console games. Probably any multi-console games there are will be designed on a multi-DVD plan for 360, and then brought to PS3 on a single disc.

@Sif: Great info!


But if it sanks, all it will do is lead to a an expensive format. I don't think that'll be a great decision it they made it.

[xbdestroya]

But if it sanks, all it will do is lead to a an expensive format. I don't think that'll be a great decision it they made it.


Yeah I agree, that's why I'm thinking at this point, we'll never see an HD-DVD 360 variant, even if just for movie playback.

[Domination]

360's DVD's are 3.5GB per layer. Also much slower seek and refocus times. The plot thickens....

Final dvd specs:
Dual-layer, 3.5 GB layer
15 MB/s outer edge, 6 MB/s inner edge
110-115ms average seek, 240ms full stroke, 140ms 1/3rd stroke
75 ms laser refocus for layer change
Link (http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEFpFlZApktdrRCUeP.php)

If that is true, then that's just sad. HD content posing a problem is only half of it.

[Danji]

Yes, GTA SA filled up the 9 GB. To have only 7 GB next gen (A step back truly) is outrageously ridiculous.

There is only one word for the 360 as a whole:

Unprofessional

[venomv]

360's DVD's are 3.5GB per layer. Also much slower seek and refocus times than Blu-Ray. The plot thickens....

Final dvd specs:
Dual-layer, 3.5 GB layer
15 MB/s outer edge, 6 MB/s inner edge
110-115ms average seek, 240ms full stroke, 140ms 1/3rd stroke
75 ms laser refocus for layer change
Link (http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEFpFlZApktdrRCUeP.php)

Are there any advantages to this, it makes absolutly no sense to me. One question though, do these have faster read time then traditional DVD's.

[CrumCon]

Yes, GTA SA filled up the 9 GB. To have only 7 GB next gen (A step back truly) is outrageously ridiculous.

There is only one word for the 360 as a whole:

Unprofessional

Not unprofessional, but they had no choice, cause they want to launch X360 as soon as possible. But the problem is both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD wont be ready until next year (yes HD-DVD has been posponed to next year).

For Microsoft they had to choose:
Launch early for hoping to be successful like PS2.
Or launch only few months sooner / later then PS3 and get their product killed like that by PS3.

they had to choose for the first one

[woundingchaney]

:splitspin I am really surprised all the attention this dvd drive is getting.
How does any of us find it surprising that MS is launching with a plain dvd drive here? As far as will it have any effect on the games, honestly of course none of us really know but my thoughts are no it wont (of course other than games being launched on multiple disks).

Im sure there are many things that must be overcome by diplaying high def media on a dual layer dvd but, I believe that many (if not all) can be rectified with proper programming (of course that is somewhat utopian).

The statement made by the dev of Saint's Row, about the drive not being able to stream enough data to make flying planes in the game an option. Now that interests me, because that could indeed be a limitation, at the same time however I dont see why that couldnt be overcome (but Im not a dev). Perhaps Cpiasmic could better clearify on that one. :splitspin

[Infernal]

Well I dont expect to see GTA on 360 next gen any more. I mean SA already filled 9GB, and with the jump to hi-def, compression can only do so much... How much has compression really improved from this gen to next. This will not allow any hi-def content at all, honestly if they just added new content to GTA and no improved graphics there still wouldnt be enough room on a normal DVD. Also GTA is one of those games, that you just can not have multiple disks for in any concievable way.

[woundingchaney]

Well I dont expect to see GTA on 360 next gen any more. I mean SA already filled 9GB, and with the jump to hi-def, compression can only do so much... How much has compression really improved from this gen to next. This will not allow any hi-def content at all, honestly if they just added new content to GTA and no improved graphics there still wouldnt be enough room on a normal DVD. Also GTA is one of those games, that you just can not have multiple disks for in any concievable way.


And why is that, each disk could contain an area of the overall map. Once you load the map then you play. If you move from city to city you switch disks.

As far as compression, I dont think it has necessarily improved much but, now the need for it is raised dramatically. As far as how much can a dev get out of compression techniques, I have no idea.

[Infernal]

And why is that, each disk could contain an area of the overall map. Once you load the map then you play. If you move from city to city you switch disks.
Think about that for a minute. Your running from the cops, hop on a jet, and start flying, choppers on both sides of you, missles flying through the air, stars flashing on the screen, and suddenly. Please Switch To Disk 3...

[woundingchaney]

Think about that for a minute. Your running from the cops, hop on a jet, and start flying, choppers on both sides of you, missles flying through the air, stars flashing on the screen, and suddenly. Please Switch To Disk 3...


Oh, I very much agree it would be annoying but at the same time it would still be possible.

[Junox50]

It could be like Resident Evil on Gamecube, where you get to a certain spot and then it asks you to load in the next disc.

[speed stick]

3.5 GB is terrible if that is the truth. They better have some major compression or they will run into even more space issues then everyone thinks.

[masonite]

Think about that for a minute. Your running from the cops, hop on a jet, and start flying, choppers on both sides of you, missles flying through the air, stars flashing on the screen, and suddenly. Please Switch To Disk 3...


it could be even worse. What if theres a mission that requires you to move between cities? what if you need to go over the border of a city momentarily before you need to comeback?

I agree, it's just not feasible. and would things such as wanted stars carry over?
multiple discs work in an RPG where you're usually moving forward through the game, and you don't necessarily need the continuity that a single disc can provide, but in a game such as GTA (especially next gen GTA) you really need continuity.

unless the 360 version only lets you play one area at a time, with no continuity between the cities... like the original GTA......won't that be fun..... :sleep:

[speed stick]

DVD Single-layer Single-sided (DVD-5): 4.7GB
DVD Dual-layer Single-sided (DVD-9): 7.95GB
DVD Single-layer Double-sided (DVD-10): 8.75GB
DVD Dual-layer Double-sided (DVD-18): 15.9GB

Could they not make games on the DVD-18 is they wanted to? That would definitly work. But then again I guese it makes no difference because you would still have to turn the DVD over.

[Helios]

That is what I am understanding yhanks to this thread.
But what about multi-platorm games ? how can you have the same game on an XBX360 and a PS3 if, on one side you have 8,7GB and on one side 50GB ?
Will multiplatform games for PS3 will use only a regular DVD ?
Can someone answer theses questions ?

The way I take it is that unless developers truly want to double and triple disc you are going to see a lot of PS3 games stay on the PS3 and not go multi-platform.

This could swing two ways actually. Either developers wont like unintentially making exclusive titles(with insane dev costs and all they want max profitability). ...Or you might see developers making a lot of titles on the PS3 because of the gnormous storage room.

After scannng the flurry of dev comparisons on the two systems about ease of development on 360 and the such. I believe that its all going to be next to irrelevant 6 months to a year down the road once developers are truly out of this generation mindset and really want to start adding some serious content to their games. And being limited by 7-9Gb just will not cut it. Its that simple, compression can only get you so far and it wont even get you to a single layer BD. Once this quite large flaw becomes more noticable you might see a lot of dev's jumping ship, Rockstar and GTA is the begining.

[PhYmon]

Hey guys u know whats funny that I made a thread about this topic and everybody went nuts!! hahahaha, the think that news was made by some PS fanboy. U know something I think Microsoft did some brainwashing to the consumers and the did a great job by the way! :P

[Infernal]

The way I take it is that unless developers truly want to double and triple disc you are going to see a lot of PS3 games stay on the PS3 and not go multi-platform.
I dont think its quite that serious of a problem for 360. Most games are perfectly fine with multiple disks, its just certain games wont work very well with multiple disks. I mean RPG's are obviously fine, fighting games can work (One single player disk, one multiplayer), shooters (One single player disk, one multiplayer), and any game that can fit on one disk can work. But games like GTA, GT (Imagine having to switch disks everytime you start a new race), and if a games entire multiplayer cant fit on one disk, then problems could start.

[Danji]

Parsing single-player and multi-player seperately isn't as easy as you make it sound. You have all the same textures for each mode so it wouldn't alleviate the data problem. For a story mode on a FPS you might need 2 discs and then another disc for MP with no intro's or videos or anything. it'd look terrible.

[D3adcell]

Wait a second, I remember hearing when the original xbox launched that it had 8gb of space on the dvd's. If the xbox360 has no more that is moronic of microsoft. Sure the whole disc may not be used by every developer, but for those who want to really push the boundaries it would be nice. Unless when J Allard said that compression could get alot better he meant it.

[Helios]

Actually I was talking more along the lines of costs. We all know its getting expensive as it is. Im not up to que on the price of each DVD but im sure it wouldnt be too cost friendly on the developer to have the programmer spend extra time to break down a 20gb+ game into multiple discs.

[archash]

Hmmm...really bad news for 360 i think.

Just think about it, I really can't remember a really good PS2 game that uses multiple disks (I didn't like Devil May Cry 2, and i didn't get to finish Star Ocean 3...it was too long). I remember a few years back i read in a magazine that Square was having some problems fitting Final Fantasy X info on a single DVD, but they ended up releasing it on a single DVD anyway.

My point? I'm not a technical person, but as a consumer, it makes a whole lot of sense for a game to be on a single disc. i'm not saying next-gen games like GTA4 won't be possible on multiple disc formats, but it just doesn't feel right. and I've become so accustomed to playing RPG's/games in general without interruption(FFX comes into mind), and i'd like to keep it that way for the coming generation of gaming.

MS really has their work cut out for them, this is a serious misstep IMHO

[jaxmkii]

i was going to tell you guys i saw a 360 in person sunday at the mall and Call of duty 2 was a playable demo it looked fantastic! but with only 7GB how long could it keep up that kind of detail?!? i was thinking the PS3 could get a run for its money but knowing this... i think the joke about 360 is its called the 360 cause when you buy it you end up right back where you started... suddenly that joke is not to funny this almost makes me fell bad for MS... almost

[rpgamer_2k5]

There isn't really a need of porting GTA4 to Xbox 360, when a spinoff can be developed specifically for the 360, like GTA for PSP. Much of GTA4's additions can be included too.

[Lekko]

Don't forget the 360 Hard drive. You could install the other cities onto the hard drive, and leave only storyline and missions and whatnot on the disc. But since MS is splitting the market with the core system and whatnot...

The hard drive could have easily been microsoft's savinng grace for larger games. If the game is too big for one disc, have a few install discs and then one single playable disc. But that would be a bit tough without a standard HD built in, huh? Not to mention that if you get a coupple of those games out, you could potentially fill the drive up.

One last thought about multi-disc games. What if one of the discs gets scratched? with multiple discs, you run a higher risk of damaging the game. And beleive me.. a LOT of people do not take care of their games. Imagine how much it would suck if you scratched the multiplayer disc to Halo 3, but singleplayer was fine.

[speed stick]

I've been reading around the internet about this issue and I kinda think Microsoft had made the choice to use standard DVDs because they had compression in mind. Theres no doubt that Microsoft has amazing compression technology. The 360s GPU and CPU can decompress in realtime without any delays. The compression technology is only getting better and better as time goes by.

Also, I think developers for the 360 are going to be making the cutscenes in realtime rather then pre-rendered. Pre-rendered stuff uses a lot of space and the realtime graphics are good enough this generation that they can be used for the cutscenes and look absolutly amazing.

[archash]

Don't forget the 360 Hard drive. You could install the other cities onto the hard drive, and leave only storyline and missions and whatnot on the disc. But since MS is splitting the market with the core system and whatnot...
Forgot about that one..but i still think it's a little too cumbersome to be installing disk after disk when you could just be playing(yeah i know...i'm really lazy :laugh: )

One last thought about multi-disc games. What if one of the discs gets scratched? with multiple discs, you run a higher risk of damaging the game. And beleive me.. a LOT of people do not take care of their games. Imagine how much it would suck if you scratched the multiplayer disc to Halo 3, but singleplayer was fine.
Exactly my point. Although I am pretty sure MS knows what they are getting themselves into, but i still think they rushed the release of 360 a little too soon...

[Domination]

:splitspin I am really surprised all the attention this dvd drive is getting.
How does any of us find it surprising that MS is launching with a plain dvd drive here? As far as will it have any effect on the games, honestly of course none of us really know but my thoughts are no it wont (of course other than games being launched on multiple disks).

Im sure there are many things that must be overcome by diplaying high def media on a dual layer dvd but, I believe that many (if not all) can be rectified with proper programming (of course that is somewhat utopian).

The statement made by the dev of Saint's Row, about the drive not being able to stream enough data to make flying planes in the game an option. Now that interests me, because that could indeed be a limitation, at the same time however I dont see why that couldnt be overcome (but Im not a dev). Perhaps Cpiasmic could better clearify on that one. :splitspin

It's not so much that they are using a current DVD drive (that was expected): it's the fact that they are going with the least bit of capacity for the drive. That's kinda backwards to me - especially when speaking of an HD era.

[xbdestroya]

i was going to tell you guys i saw a 360 in person sunday at the mall and Call of duty 2 was a playable demo it looked fantastic! but with only 7GB how long could it keep up that kind of detail?!? i was thinking the PS3 could get a run for its money but knowing this... i think the joke about 360 is its called the 360 cause when you buy it you end up right back where you started... suddenly that joke is not to funny this almost makes me fell bad for MS... almost

It may surprise, but Call of Duty 2 and other such PC ports shouldn't have too much of a problem space-wise, at least for a while. Those games are generally under ~4 gigs or so, and they'll probably stay in the vicinity of one DVD for quite some time.

[D3adcell]

It may surprise, but Call of Duty 2 and other such PC ports shouldn't have too much of a problem space-wise, at least for a while. Those games are generally under ~4 gigs or so, and they'll probably stay in the vicinity of one DVD for quite some time.

This raises a big question. If PC games (which were superior graphically last gen) do not use an entire DVD should we be worried? On a pc you install the game and the data is then decompressed and 'streamed from the hdd right? Well could they not do the same know with the 360. Of course not installing to the hdd but they should be able to decompress these files at a high rate now that the system has so much power.

[xbdestroya]

This raises a big question. If PC games (which were superior graphically last gen) do not use an entire DVD should we be worried? On a pc you install the game and the data is then decompressed and 'streamed from the hdd right? Well could they not do the same know with the 360. Of course not installing to the hdd but they should be able to decompress these files at a high rate now that the system has so much power.

Yeah I agree. I'm not sure to what extent the hard drive (or lack thereof) would factor in ultimately to increase the size of space needed on the disc - I imagine some - but maybe Cpiasminc or someone else has some insights into this.

[venomv]

If they do that, installing it to the HDD then stream some of it from there. Then what would people without a HDD do, they would probably not be able to play the games, buy a version of the game with 2-3 DVD's, or face insanly massive load times. None of which are good options.

[xbdestroya]

If they do that, installing it to the HDD then stream some of it from there. Then what would people without a HDD do, they would probably not be able to play the games, buy a version of the game with 2-3 DVD's, or face insanly massive load times. None of which are good options.

No obviously they're not going to do that. That's why some insight into how much this mght expand the on-disc data would be interesting to know.

[D3adcell]

If they do that, installing it to the HDD then stream some of it from there. Then what would people without a HDD do, they would probably not be able to play the games, buy a version of the game with 2-3 DVD's, or face insanly massive load times. None of which are good options.

but you see with the multi processors and the same for the cell. The game can be loading a level or loading whatever while your still playing. So then its like a seamless transition.

[Coded-Dude]

well the current game demos DON'T have seamless transition, there are pauses for loading/re-loading. I have been to wal-mart and played a few of the games, and although I enjoyed the games, I wasn't impressed with overall graphics(I know its just a demo, but still) or load times. The user interface seem pretty slick, but I have yet to play with it too much. Anywho, it will be interesting to see how MS handles this. Maybe they will release another console in 4 years with better hardware, but that would also be a very bad idea.....IMO

[gablar16]

I wonder how much procesing power would be taken away from gameplay. I imagine something significant. does anyone knows?

[Red_Eyes]

Its actually 8.5 GB not 4.5 GB. This is a problem but Microsoft does use a really good compresion technology.

Hmmm... and if Sony use compression on Blu-Ray too... just imagine what...

[Ducey]

I want faster or eliminated loading times, better resolution and a faster refresh rate, more immersive gameplay and a gold plated toilet seat.

Not much to ask, I mean really.

[jaxmkii]

I want faster or eliminated loading times, better resolution and a faster refresh rate, more immersive gameplay and a gold plated toilet seat.

Not much to ask, I mean really.
im sure for 29.95 MS will offer a gold plated toilet seat stick on accesory for the 360 proving once and for all there compleat domination of Technology :cheers:

[jaxmkii]

This raises a big question. If PC games (which were superior graphically last gen) do not use an entire DVD should we be worried? On a pc you install the game and the data is then decompressed and 'streamed from the hdd right? Well could they not do the same know with the 360. Of course not installing to the hdd but they should be able to decompress these files at a high rate now that the system has so much power. remember 2000 when lots of PC gamers where saying CDs are plenty and the ps2 only needs em cause of a lack of harddrives?...

[nelposto]

Unless when J Allard said that compression could get alot better he meant it.

I personally don't think compression is something to bank completely on. The improvements would have to be outrageous to keep up with the HD push on the same old media.

[woundingchaney]

I wonder how much procesing power would be taken away from gameplay. I imagine something significant. does anyone knows?


No not by any means significant, in fact, it may not even be noticeable (of course thats kind of a logical guess).

[gablar16]

No not by any means significant, in fact, it may not even be noticeable (of course thats kind of a logical guess).


Thanks for the answer!

[speed stick]

Hmmm... and if Sony use compression on Blu-Ray too... just imagine what...

I don't think Sony is going to use compression because they really have no need to because they chose to use a superior format. So we don't really have to consider that.

[Rapture]

lack of room isnt the only reason to compress soemthing - also consider the time it takes to transfer something from the disc.

[Helios]

I personally don't think compression is something to bank completely on. The improvements would have to be outrageous to keep up with the HD push on the same old media.

Of course the improvements in compression are not that good. Otherwise it would have been a waste of money to even invest in either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray from the start.

Think about it, why put a couple million(not sure on that number) in development cost on HD-DVD/Blu-Ray when you could just update your compression technology? The obvious awnser is that regardless of your compression tech. it could never be good enough to replace a 25Gb-50Gb disc. This highly unproffesional move of MS will come back to bite them in the ass quite soon, maybe a year and a half at most, I gurantee it.

[speed stick]

lack of room isnt the only reason to compress soemthing - also consider the time it takes to transfer something from the disc.

I think Blu-Ray has more then enough transfer speeds from the disc to the console that they really should't have to worry.

[D3adcell]

Hmmm... and if Sony use compression on Blu-Ray too... just imagine what...

Imagine how much time and money that would take to develop. Even if they sold several copies, would it cover the development costs even?

[Z]

I can't seem to get this: why in the world would MS use less than a DVD-9?

Deadcell: why would compression be so expensive? they can use todays compression techniques and they don't even have to use the latest since they have much more space to work with.

[D3adcell]

I never said compression would be expensive. I was stating that to have that much space filled along with compression it would be expensive. Expensive to develop that much game and textures etc.

[Z]

but that is the catch; it doesn't have to be all game and content. alot of space will be filled up purely for using high definition in both inside the game and in cutscenes. that is why HD movies require so much space.

[axia777]

I never said compression would be expensive. I was stating that to have that much space filled along with compression it would be expensive. Expensive to develop that much game and textures etc.

Game devs and publishers have been quoted as saying next gen games will cost upwards of $20-$80 million for AAA titles. That is a lot of cash. That is a huge art dept is what that is. I have also read that it is the art depts. in studios that are the thing that is going to swell in size. Not so much the programming depts. But art teams are going to grow 3-4 times in size. That is a large amount of modeling and texturing. With an art team like that the graphics will kick ass on a major level.

[D3adcell]

Yes axia, but then again to make so much textures and graphics and such to fill an entire blue ray disk is going to be very very expensive. Which means you may be paying upwards of 80$ for a game. Sure that wouldnt sell so much and would be a bad business move on sony's part. But If they make a game that large the money has to come from somewhere and if they aren't going to make any money why would they invest in that in the first place?

[woundingchaney]

Yes axia, but then again to make so much textures and graphics and such to fill an entire blue ray disk is going to be very very expensive. Which means you may be paying upwards of 80$ for a game. Sure that wouldnt sell so much and would be a bad business move on sony's part. But If they make a game that large the money has to come from somewhere and if they aren't going to make any money why would they invest in that in the first place?


Well what you say may be true, but the point isnt the ramifications of filling a blu ray disc, the point is that the format has the option of having that many textures-graphics-sound files-etc.=-o

[mr187]

games costing $80 million may not be that surprising considering movies that use alot of cgi tend to cost way more than that like lord of the rings, star wars ep 1-3. The games costing $80 may happen though, but games with big budgets doesn't usually equate to us consumers paying more money. Game developers could get sponsored by large companies as long as they put big company logos in the background of their games.

[Coded-Dude]

^ you hav egeiven good insight and therefore deserve some rep.

btw - welcome to the boards mr187!

[Z]

I agree. nobody has ever talked about reaching 50G of game size. and again, using higher resolution will fill up much more space quickly.

[Helios]

Well we werent exactly talking of filling a dual layer disc 5 years ago either. Its just natural progression that every generation uses considerably more data than the previous. I think we could easily see games reaching 50Gb 5 years from now.

Im not talking about just HD textures and such either, just the sheer size of the average game will increase 3 fold pretty soon. Just because they can.

[axia777]

Well what you say may be true, but the point isnt the ramifications of filling a blu ray disc, the point is that the format has the option of having that many textures-graphics-sound files-etc.=-o

That my is my point exactly! While 360 devs in the future may want very much to put more textures and content on one disc, so as to not have two or more, they will NEVER be able to. They are trapped in a small box. While a 7 Gig 360 game may sound large now, one must think 2-3 years ahead and more. In 2-3 years 7 gigs of data for a game is going to be squat. 20+ gigs is gonna be big for a game. This all has to do with real HD resolutions. 10-15 gigs I suspect is going to be average size for a PS3 game. SE with Final Fantasy is going to push the envelope and may some day fill up a BluRay disc completely with content. The 360 devs are screwed in comparison to PS3 devs on this subject. That is a plain fact of life.

[woundingchaney]

That my is my point exactly! While 360 devs in the future may want very much to put more textures and content on one disc, so as to not have two or more, they will NEVER be able to. They are trapped in a small box. While a 7 Gig 360 game may sound large now, one must think 2-3 years ahead and more. In 2-3 years 7 gigs of data for a game is going to be squat. 20+ gigs is gonna be big for a game. This all has to do with real HD resolutions. 10-15 gigs I suspect is going to be average size for a PS3 game. SE with Final Fantasy is going to push the envelope and may some day fill up a BluRay disc completely with content. The 360 devs are screwed in comparison to PS3 devs on this subject. That is a plain fact of life.


Which is the main reason why I believe we are going to be seeing multi-disk games in the very near future for the 360 (I believe some of the Jrpgs are already using the multi-disk approach).

Anyway you look at it the additional storage of the blu ray disk is preferable over a dvd any day.

Although I feel as if the issue is somewhat over-rated though.

[Z]

I believe some of the Jrpgs are already using the multi-disk approach
and most of them don't require multiple disks really. I wonder why they do it. maybe they want to give the impression their game is big.

Although I feel as if the issue is somewhat over-rated though.
I agree. obviously more storage will be required, but I see the main focus of BD is for HD movie playback. having them for games is just a bonus.
again, having HD for games is the main reason I see for games getting bigger at a faster increase time than how game size progressed since now.

[D3adcell]

and most of them don't require multiple disks really. I wonder why they do it. maybe they want to give the impression their game is big.


I agree. obviously more storage will be required, but I see the main focus of BD is for HD movie playback. having them for games is just a bonus.
again, having HD for games is the main reason I see for games getting bigger at a faster increase time than how game size progressed since now.

I don't see how being HD is really going to take up that much more space. All PC games are HD basically. The ones that are displayed in a high resolution anyway.

[Viper]

I don't see how being HD is really going to take up that much more space. All PC games are HD basically. The ones that are displayed in a high resolution anyway.
PC games aren't developed at 1920 x 1080 resolution. They can be scaled on the hardware to run tha thigh but that's not the native resolution.

These new systems are all about developing at that high resolution to begin with which eats data like mad.

[Danji]

Consoles have higher demands than PC's for 3D art and textures are going to rape next-gen consoles. I saw COD2 and it looked horrible on the 360..perhaps this is why?

[kaphwan]

Any argument that a hard drive will make the DVD bearable on the xbox360 is null, because they only plan to make one out of ten to come with a hard drive, and everyone else must get an add-on.

It's simply not viable... not once Sony starts announcing that their format is like five times bigger. Who'd actually buy the xbox360 after hearing about that?

[D3adcell]

Consoles have higher demands than PC's for 3D art and textures are going to rape next-gen consoles. I saw COD2 and it looked horrible on the 360..perhaps this is why?

I thought it looked awesome when I played it at walmart.

It's simply not viable... not once Sony starts announcing that their format is like five times bigger. Who'd actually buy the xbox360 after hearing about that?

Who'd buy the dreamcast after hearing the ps2 used dvd's? I did, alot of other people dide, then when the dreamcast finally stopped production a few years later it was pretty big. Alot of people wanted one. Why, though when the ps2 was more powerful?? Answer that and you may have your answer why people will still buy the 360, becuase they like the games on it and its fun.

[axia777]

Multi disc sucks. Next Gen is supposed to be better than last gen. That is why is an evolution of the last gen. If a next gen system like 360 does have to have multiple discs for big games what kind of crap is that? No way it would work for GTA or similarly large nearly/completely seamless games. Getting up and changing a disc would kill the feel of the game. I still say Microsoft screwed up big time. I predict all the people now saying that the current DVD tech for 360 is not so bad will be screaming about it in 2-3 years because of the technical limitations. Game devs will hate it. They will have to squeeze "HD Era" games into a small normal DVD disc and chop out large portions of what would be more fun for us. LikeSE had to do for FFX on PS2. It all so lame.

[Coded-Dude]

^ that is why I believe they will release a NEW conosle in another 3-4 years.

[CrumCon]

I believe that aswell.. they will release another console within 3 to 4 years from now. a new Xbox3.

I simply see Xbox360 as an incomplete next-gen console.. i just felt it.. It just doesnt scream ''NEXT-GEN'' to me. maybe its just me.

[woundingchaney]

Consoles have higher demands than PC's for 3D art and textures are going to rape next-gen consoles. I saw COD2 and it looked horrible on the 360..perhaps this is why?


Honestly COD2 on the 360 is beautiful. It looks much better than any pc configuration other than an SLI (which it is probably comparable to).

Im running a dual core 3.0, 1 gig ddr2 ram, audigy z gamer, with an x850xt PE.
And with this configuration I cant run any of the advanced settings (AA, zeather smoke, etc) with only modest resolution (1280x960) and Im only getting about 30-40 fps. Considering Im working with about a 1500 dollar comp the 360 game looks beautiful (especially considering it wasnt designed around the console itself).

[woundingchaney]

Multi disc sucks. Next Gen is supposed to be better than last gen. That is why is an evolution of the last gen. If a next gen system like 360 does have to have multiple discs for big games what kind of crap is that? No way it would work for GTA or similarly large nearly/completely seamless games. Getting up and changing a disc would kill the feel of the game. I still say Microsoft screwed up big time. I predict all the people now saying that the current DVD tech for 360 is not so bad will be screaming about it in 2-3 years because of the technical limitations. Game devs will hate it. They will have to squeeze "HD Era" games into a small normal DVD disc and chop out large portions of what would be more fun for us. LikeSE had to do for FFX on PS2. It all so lame.


Well, I respect your opinion but at the same time its somewhat on the extreme side. I know of two GTA style titles that are due to release on the 360, so that doenst seem to be a limiting factor. Some of the greatest games I have played have been on multi disks and that honestly didnt stop me from enjoying the titles. Once again the disk capacity will be something devs will need to work around, but it doesnt seem to be near as limiting as working with the hardware of the PS3.

To simply undermine and belittle the 360 because it uses a dvd drive is somewhat ridiculous isnt it?

[Coded-Dude]

but it doesnt seem to be near as limiting as working with the hardware of the PS3.
How do you figure?

[Danji]

As to answer everyone questioning my thoughts on COD2. The pop-in is horrendous. A guy from 12 feet away looks PS2 quality (if that) and then a box from 8 feet away is a god-d*mned cube. Not a detailed cube either but a literal, 6-sided, cube. The textures look bad to me, myself, and I'm at least thankful the FPS is steady. Had it jumpy Framerate I'd be saying a whole lot worse things about it.

But seriously, those games look good but they're on standard with PC's now. Imagine what happens 1 or 2 years down the road. Sure, there's going to be much more optimization but Videocards and PPUs are going to make sure the PC passes up the 360 and fast. Let's not forget the pentium VIIVs coming out next year cause those are going to be powerful little buggers.

In any case, all I'm saying is that COD2 should look better than that on a next-gen console. My standards may be high..but that's now I am.

[woundingchaney]

As to answer everyone questioning my thoughts on COD2. The pop-in is horrendous. A guy from 12 feet away looks PS2 quality (if that) and then a box from 8 feet away is a god-d*mned cube. Not a detailed cube either but a literal, 6-sided, cube. The textures look bad to me, myself, and I'm at least thankful the FPS is steady. Had it jumpy Framerate I'd be saying a whole lot worse things about it.

But seriously, those games look good but they're on standard with PC's now. Imagine what happens 1 or 2 years down the road. Sure, there's going to be much more optimization but Videocards and PPUs are going to make sure the PC passes up the 360 and fast. Let's not forget the pentium VIIVs coming out next year cause those are going to be powerful little buggers.

In any case, all I'm saying is that COD2 should look better than that on a next-gen console. My standards may be high..but that's how I am.


I hadnt noticed those things but they may very well be there.

Its also important to note that you are playing on an unfinished build with an lcd screen that is most likely not calibrated right and may not be displaying 720p.

[Danji]

It was definitely HD. I analyzed the whole set-up thoroughly. It was obviously 720p and it becomes even more obvious when you compare it to the other displays there. That's the thing I really like about the 360. HD standard.

In any case, after analyzing the game a lot those are some of the things I noticed. Also at the beginning you point your gun/hand towards the horizon the shader for the heat-distortion affects your hand so you have hand-waves going out. it looked pretty bad.

My major problems are texture-depth and polygon count (majorly my problem there).
The things I liked were the stable frame-rates and punching me some commi fuckers. Hahahaha (jk)

[Z]

actually Dreamcast had a fantastic N American launch, and it pritty much went down hill from there. Sega cut their losses and stops production. right console, bad time. pitty, I really loved Dreamcast...

anywhoo, the gap between PS3 and X2 is small. that is why some still bought DC instead of waiting. DC launched in 98 (the memorable N American 9/9/99!), PS2 in 2000. the same long wait happened between PS2 and Box & Cube. this time, the wait period is much shorter, 4-5 months aren't really a big deal. that combines with Sony's marketing, hype, more demos, BD will make all the wait shorter.

in any case, lets wait and see.

[axia777]

Well, I respect your opinion but at the same time its somewhat on the extreme side. I know of two GTA style titles that are due to release on the 360, so that doenst seem to be a limiting factor. Some of the greatest games I have played have been on multi disks and that honestly didnt stop me from enjoying the titles. Once again the disk capacity will be something devs will need to work around, but it doesnt seem to be near as limiting as working with the hardware of the PS3.

To simply undermine and belittle the 360 because it uses a dvd drive is somewhat ridiculous isnt it?


Really, GTA on 360? Where did you get that info? I have not seen hide nor hare of any info on GTA with 360. Even Gamespot and IGN had nothing. I do know of some 360 game that an ex-creator of GTA is working on that is like GTA in the future. i bet it will be on 360 as well unless they paid him not to. But no GTA news. Got a link to that info?

And how is the PS3 hardware limiting? I've heard mostly very positive feedback from Devs on how easy and efficient PS3 is to work on. At least those that are opening their minds to a new way of programming and not holding on to the old ways on single processor systems are saying this. i imagine game programmers will have to re-evaluate almost everything they know almost about programming. Just like for PS2. I just hope Sony's documentation and middleware are way better for PS23 than for PS2. I have heard that when PS2 first came out it was really bad for Devs.

I agree, a lot of the best games I have played are multi disc. Lots of RPGs come to mind. But this is next gen we are talking about here. They are supposed to make a system better in every way. Like how PS1 used CD's, which was great as a medium for the time, but sucked ass for PS2 graphics. Which is why they went to DVDs. obviously DVDs are better than CDs. BluRay-DVD is way better than DVD. HD-DVD is better than DVD. Normal DVDs for 360? That is crap. Take my word, devs will hate this issue. Maybe not now, but in 2-3 years they will hate it a lot.

[Z]

wounding said two GTA style games. one of them is the one you mentioned the ex-GTA guy working on. but if they filled up a whole DVD-9 with GTA:SA, how can the game expand on an even smaller DVD (7G limit?). that is without considering HD, higher textures and overall more demanding files that require more space.
now I see the first wave of X2 titles to be okay on these discs, but what will happen when the heavy stuff kicks in like using HD, all three CPU cores, exploiting Xenon, etc. games six months from launch may find these DVDs to confining. they may stall for a while, but eventually, they would require multiple discs. no imagine this: you got a multigame on both PS3 and X2. the X2 version is on multiple discs. the PS3 version is on one and it has higher HD resolution and looks overall better due to system power (think Box & PS2 games, only the other way around this time). which one will you think the general gamers would want? the less impressive visuals on multiple discs, or the one with better graphics on one disc?

[woundingchaney]

wounding said two GTA style games. one of them is the one you mentioned the ex-GTA guy working on. but if they filled up a whole DVD-9 with GTA:SA, how can the game expand on an even smaller DVD (7G limit?). that is without considering HD, higher textures and overall more demanding files that require more space.
now I see the first wave of X2 titles to be okay on these discs, but what will happen when the heavy stuff kicks in like using HD, all three CPU cores, exploiting Xenon, etc. games six months from launch may find these DVDs to confining. they may stall for a while, but eventually, they would require multiple discs. no imagine this: you got a multigame on both PS3 and X2. the X2 version is on multiple discs. the PS3 version is on one and it has higher HD resolution and looks overall better due to system power (think Box & PS2 games, only the other way around this time). which one will you think the general gamers would want? the less impressive visuals on multiple discs, or the one with better graphics on one disc?


Good point, but perhaps we shouldnt be talking like the PS3 is "definetly going to be graphically superior" at this point in time.

[venomv]

I think MS has down-played graphics enough that we should be talking that way. The only reason for them to want to down-play graphic is if they KNOW they would be on the lossing side of a graphics battle. I'm not saying by how much, but I'd be willing to bet the PS3 is at least a bit better graphicly.

[woundingchaney]

I think MS has down-played graphics enough that we should be talking that way. The only reason for them to want to down-play graphic is if they KNOW they would be on the lossing side of a graphics battle. I'm not saying by how much, but I'd be willing to bet the PS3 is at least a bit better graphicly.
True, unless of course Sony has over-played their graphic capabilities.

But anyways this isnt a graphic discussion and I shouldnt have steered it in that direction my apologies.

[venomv]

True, unless of course Sony has over-played their graphic capabilities.

But anyways this isnt a graphic discussion and I shouldnt have steered it in that direction my apologies.

That is possable even though I doubt it, and these threads all somehow turn into graphics discussions. I'm gonna leave this alone and, like you said, time to get back on topic.

[Z]

to be safe as possible, I won't say 'definitly' better. but what is the wors that can happen for a multigame? the same graphics right? still, you have two versions; "do you want that in multiple discs, sir, or just one?" an EB guy taking your order.
also, even if Sony over hyped their graphics, that isn't reason for MS to down play theirs. on the contrary, that will be a good chance to use it against Sony.
anyhoo, we can discuss this all you like in the CG in game thread.

back on topic: I agree that MS didn't really have any choice but to go with DVD. it was simply too early to pic one. BD could still fail for all we know and PS3 will get a major bag to drag for an intire generation.on the other hand, HD-DVD could fail. MS simply couldn't pick any at the time of decision. but what I would want to know, why would they go with even smaller DVD sizes? 7G limit? why not use everyday DVD-9? for that one, I am still waiting for an answer.

[woundingchaney]

to be safe as possible, I won't say 'definitly' better. but what is the wors that can happen for a multigame? the same graphics right? still, you have two versions; "do you want that in multiple discs, sir, or just one?" an EB guy taking your order.
also, even if Sony over hyped their graphics, that isn't reason for MS to down play theirs. on the contrary, that will be a good chance to use it against Sony.
anyhoo, we can discuss this all you like in the CG in game thread.

back on topic: I agree that MS didn't really have any choice but to go with DVD. it was simply too early to pic one. BD could still fail for all we know and PS3 will get a major bag to drag for an intire generation.on the other hand, HD-DVD could fail. MS simply couldn't pick any at the time of decision. but what I would want to know, why would they go with even smaller DVD sizes? 7G limit? why not use everyday DVD-9? for that one, I am still waiting for an answer.

Perhaps MS is giving us realistic expectations in order to use that against Sony's over-promising (of course this is all just speculation).

I completely agree that MS doesnt have any alternative than to put a dvd drive in their console at this time and that is the specific reason for them choosing this format. Of course the Rev doesnt seem to be using an advanced form of the disc storage (why are we not condemning them?).

[woundingchaney]

How do you figure?


The numerous reports of devs unhappy with programming for the hardware.

[Viper]

Of course the Rev doesnt seem to be using an advanced form of the disc storage (why are we not condemning them?).
Do you know for sure what they'll use? Official report is a 12cm disc, that's it.

[woundingchaney]

Do you know for sure what they'll use? Official report is a 12cm disc, that's it.


Very true, but would you be williing to make a bet;-] .

[Z]

Of course the Rev doesnt seem to be using an advanced form of the disc storage (why are we not condemning them?).
Ninty already said they won't use HD at all, so why go with HD formats? the size demand for HD is the main reason for going with an HD format. of course, they might add one, but I doubt it. this is Ninty, they like keeping things as cheap as possible.

another thing why we don't talk about Rev that much is because, well, they aren't around. we know more about black holes than Rev. maybe we should talk about those till something comes up about Rev. lol

[PhYmon]

Look what I found about this topic. http://greggman.com/edit/editheadlines/2005-08-17.htm

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Dave Jaffe, the head creator of God of War for ps2, in an interview with Game Informer"
GI: What's your take on PS3?
David Jaffe: I've seen enough to get me excited and proud of the fact that I work for a company that's going to have the best f***ing hardware on the planet. Let's put it this way, for Microsoft to say there's no difference is as stupid as Sony trying to say there's no difference between PS2 and Xbox. Is there any difference from the standpoint of, ultimately, it doesn't really matter? It's about who has the best games and who has the most fun experience. I still think that's going to be Sony. But, if you actually look at it from a technical standpoint, I think you're kind of smoking the crack if you think the Xbox 360 is totally equivalent to the PS3. That's just PR spin, and they know it, and your readers should know it.
--------------------------
owned.

[Domination]

It's funny because I said the samething, and it's true if those demos are any indication, which I'm sure they are.

[Red_Eyes]

Dave Jaffe, the head creator of God of War for ps2, in an interview with Game Informer"
GI: What's your take on PS3?
David Jaffe: I've seen enough to get me excited and proud of the fact that I work for a company that's going to have the best f***ing hardware on the planet. Let's put it this way, for Microsoft to say there's no difference is as stupid as Sony trying to say there's no difference between PS2 and Xbox. Is there any difference from the standpoint of, ultimately, it doesn't really matter? It's about who has the best games and who has the most fun experience. I still think that's going to be Sony. But, if you actually look at it from a technical standpoint, I think you're kind of smoking the crack if you think the Xbox 360 is totally equivalent to the PS3. That's just PR spin, and they know it, and your readers should know it.
--------------------------
owned.

This man speaks the truth.

[CrumCon]

The man has spoken...

[Z]

hehe, it is always something to see a dev this exited that he talks like that.
but aside from that, this is what alot of us have been saying all along, and what MS has been saying as well if you think about it. 'technically' speaking, PS3 is superior to any other system at the time. PC will catch up in about a year or so. why do you think MS stopped all technical specs ad comparisons to PS3 after E3 and went from 'more powerful' to 'about the same' to 'no noticeable difference' to 'power/graphics aren't important'.

but why are we talking about this here? let's try to keep this on topic and the system overall comparisons in its thread.

[Ducey]

Whats going to happen later?

I mean, say you buy an Xbox360 at launch with its DVD drive. This path you're on either means:
1) All the games on the 360 will be stuck on DVD format, and in the HD era, I can see big RPGs taking up 4 disks easily. Now I don't think that changing disks is such a detraction in RPGs but as mentioned previously about GTA:SA or some such would be a pain in the ass.
or 2) They switch to a different format later, forcing you to send in your 360 for an upgrade (free of course, but still a hassle)

Neither option particularly appeals to me to be honest, I mean both consoles will be in my lounge eventually, but I just can't see DVD remaining as console gaming medium.

Seriously, could you imagine playing MGS on CDs? GT4? Barbies funhouse? It would detract from the game considerably... with the possible exception to barbie games.

P.S Having not actually played any Barbie games I am in no position to comment on the gameplay of aforementioned game. (End masculinity reaffirmation)

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Man, if they put next gen barbie on multple discs I will be PISSED.

[jaxmkii]

Yes axia, but then again to make so much textures and graphics and such to fill an entire blue ray disk is going to be very very expensive. Which means you may be paying upwards of 80$ for a game. Sure that wouldnt sell so much and would be a bad business move on sony's part. But If they make a game that large the money has to come from somewhere and if they aren't going to make any money why would they invest in that in the first place?
I dont see your logic there is no data to $$$ formula. if there was and a sega game that was 8MB (Mig29) of total space cost $44.95 in the day would translate into $26437.50 for GT4. a 320x320 texture takes as much time to aplly to a poly as a 2048x2048 texture. yes there is no argument that games will cost more to develop but IMO it i dont think is going to be as bad as everyone thinks. look at how much money they poor in a film and charge only $15 for a DVD. and hollywood still makes to much cash.

[Viper]

look at how much money they poor in a film and charge only $15 for a DVD. and hollywood still makes to much cash.
Hollywood uses a formula that works by making hundreds of millions from a few big films a year and losing a few million on smaller BS titles.

The big films subsidize the loss of the small films. The goal for them isn't profit from each movie but overal profit by having a balanced library of titles.

Game companies may start doing this too.

[Z]

Man, if they put next gen barbie on multple discs I will be PISSED.
what? no ultra pritty colored ponies next gen on X2? screw MS! screw them to Barbie Hell!! give a man his damn ponies!
Hollywood uses a formula that works by making hundreds of millions from a few big films a year and losing a few million on smaller BS titles.

The big films subsidize the loss of the small films. The goal for them isn't profit from each movie but overal profit by having a balanced library of titles.

Game companies may start doing this too.
keep in mind the other revenues for movies. first, movie goers are more than gamers. mvoies get profits from the box office, DVD, rentals, licensing to channels and TV networks world wide, licensing merchandise, etc.

games havent got that far, but they are making noticeable progress each cycle.

[Viper]

I understand the profits come from multiple segments but the underlying principle is still the same. The few big movies make enough to support the many busts.

[Z]

yes I agree. I think we are seeing some examples of this today. look at Capcom; great company. the recent great games they had are RE4...and what? DMC3? that is it?
now look at all the games they recently produced: Devil King, BreatDown and the other street browler games (Street of Vengence? or was that Konami?) and some others I don't remember. they are all pritty medicore and some down right ugly. other companies follow suit. even Squareenix does this, but I have to say they do it in a more promising way. you see, they are experimenting with new ideas and concepts and not just releasing underdeveloped games. the few SE RPGs aside from DQ8 are a hate it or love it kind of games that haven't been well recieved even in Japan.

[axia777]

Dave Jaffe, the head creator of God of War for ps2, in an interview with Game Informer"
GI: What's your take on PS3?
David Jaffe: I've seen enough to get me excited and proud of the fact that I work for a company that's going to have the best f***ing hardware on the planet. Let's put it this way, for Microsoft to say there's no difference is as stupid as Sony trying to say there's no difference between PS2 and Xbox. Is there any difference from the standpoint of, ultimately, it doesn't really matter? It's about who has the best games and who has the most fun experience. I still think that's going to be Sony. But, if you actually look at it from a technical standpoint, I think you're kind of smoking the crack if you think the Xbox 360 is totally equivalent to the PS3. That's just PR spin, and they know it, and your readers should know it.
--------------------------
owned.


Pimp slapped like a poor ass bitch and owned!!!!

I know he is a Sony employee, but if he is right and telling the truth, PS3 is gonna kick some King Kong sized ass!!

[woundingchaney]

Consoles have higher demands than PC's for 3D art and textures are going to rape next-gen consoles. I saw COD2 and it looked horrible on the 360..perhaps this is why?
http://www.totalgames.net/pma/22280

[Nodieza]

I have the computer version, they look the same to me.... but maybe that's talk from a madman who's actually played it...

I think we need to take a step back, games are becoming too sophisticated and are losing what's making them fun. Simplicity. Look at Mario, jump... jump... jump yeah and mega man... jump, shoot, jump. I think I finally understand the goal of the Nintendo Rev.... Ai yi yi... I was playing the NES version of Tetris, World Cup and Mega Man and had more fun with those then I did with any other recent game to come out across the PC, GC and PC (minus Shadow of Collosus which is simplistic in nature and so is Dynasty Warriors).

[axia777]

I have the computer version, they look the same to me.... but maybe that's talk from a madman who's actually played it...

I think we need to take a step back, games are becoming too sophisticated and are losing what's making them fun. Simplicity. Look at Mario, jump... jump... jump yeah and mega man... jump, shoot, jump. I think I finally understand the goal of the Nintendo Rev.... Ai yi yi... I was playing the NES version of Tetris, World Cup and Mega Man and had more fun with those then I did with any other recent game to come out across the PC, GC and PC (minus Shadow of Collosus which is simplistic in nature and so is Dynasty Warriors).

I love simple games, which is why I own a GameBoy Advance Sp. But games like GTA, MGS:1/2/3, and Devil May Cry are the stuff of my childhood dreams. And PS3 promises to fill up those childhood dreams even more. I do plan on buying a REvolution to though. But then I own a GameCube on top of my PS2. It makes for a good pair. With Sony and Ninty I have all the game I could ever want.