Unfinished business

[Domination]

The stakes are enormous. If Moore’s attack makes significant inroads into PlayStation’s market share, he will have almost single-handedly realized Gates’s vision of Microsoft as a home entertainment powerhouse. But if Kutaragi has the last laugh, then Microsoft -- already scrambling for a looming war with Google (GOOG) over the desktop -- may have an even greater rival on its hands. It’s no secret that Kutaragi expects the PlayStation to one day replace the PC. “For Peter,” says Xbox executive J. Allard, “this time it’s personal.”

The real danger, of course, is that the Xbox 360 won’t make enough of an impact in the crucial window before the PS3 launches. And Sony has caught Microsoft off balance once already, at the E3 trade show earlier this year in Los Angeles. Just hours before the Xbox 360 press conference across town, Kutaragi nonchalantly waltzed onto a Sony Pictures soundstage and stole the show. He announced a PS3 whose specifications were more powerful than anyone watching had expected. It would be one of the first devices to feature Blu-Ray high-definition DVD playback. And contrary to Microsoft’s belief, Sony had been shipping kits to developers so they could get started on their games. “Sony showed everyone why they are on top,” says Ubisoft president Laurent Detoc. Microsoft’s overconfidence reminds him of an old saying in French: “Don’t sell the bear’s skin before you’ve killed him.”

full story (http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/print/0,17925,1122948,00.html)

The author was a tinny bit bias in some cases, but overall, I thought it was an great artical.

[saxdawg00]

By far the best part of the article lol!
....“No, Bernie, you are wrong....It is Microsoft. And I will kill them.”

I never knew MS turned down publishing rights for GTA3! They made all kinds of mistakes this gen and are looking to make even more next gen starting with their choice of optical format for games.

I now have a better understanding of Moore's feelings towards Sony, especially Ken Kutaragi. I bet he loses sleep knowing that no matter how well the 360 does (or any future MS console for that matter), he will never see Sony and Ken Kutaragi "Dreamcasted" the same way he was! PS2 gave that console a legendary status LOL!

I have a feeling that they will be trying a little too hard on the 360 marketing (has anyone seen the LAME double-dutch commercial in theaters?), turning people that haven't decided yet off from it while I expect PS3 advertising to be more cerebral(ala URNOTe campaign, maybe we'll see the W3LCOME CHANGE campaign next year), the type that actually stimulates talk and discussion which leads to......<get ready for it>.....hype.

[Domination]

To be honest, I don't think Ken, or Sony for that matter, can kill off Microsoft per se. That, to me, just sounds impossible. They really have their work cut out for them on that one, I think. Now as far as hurting Microsoft? That I can see. They most definitely have the resources to do it. But it also seems to be a sign of redemption on boths sides, and it makes a lot of sense now that I think of it.

[Crossbar]

Peter Moore seems to be bitter man. Revenge maybe a strong motivation force, but to be a winner you need have original ideas, which is somehat Microsofts soft spot.

They are pretty poor innovators, good businessmen, but poor innovators. I remember their slogan from the Netscape trial, MS were fighting for the "freedom to innovate". When a reporter asked Bill Gates, which was MS best innovation, he mentioned some kind server configuration, which later turned out not to be an MS innovation. Microsoft is good at buying companies with innovations, but then they are suffocated by MS business model which is Windows, Windows and Windows, that's about it.

I think XBox hardware is not very innovative, its a copy of the old generation implemented with todays technology all with the intention to keep costs down. The Xenon has unified shaders, that is somewhat new, but we haven't seen RSX or Hollywood yet, the unified shaders may not give any noticable advantage. I don't think MS is breaking new ground in any major way, while Sony with blueray+cell and Nintendo with the controller are doing that.

[Viper]

It also makes more sense why Nintendo is taking a different approach next gen. When two heavyweights are slinging fists, do you walk in the middle of them or go around?


Good read.

[Crinx]

That's exactly why Nintendo is creating its own market entirely. They realize they can't ever hope to compete with Microsoft or Sony now, and are establishing their own niche market to give them permanence.

[Viper]

I don't it's a matter of they can't but a matter of why?

Why spend billions and get millions in return when you can spend millions and get billions in return?

[woundingchaney]

These articles are getting to be a bit ridiculous, and dont seem to be doing anything other than playing to the media. The whole MS and Sony thing is made out to be some kind of retro crusade here with this next gen to be the determining factor. Really now give me a break. Im willing to bet that in 10 20 even 30 years down the road, MS and Sony are still going to be competitors much as they are now.

[Ducey]

A little off, but what was the meaning behind that whole URNOTe marketing? I was younger at the time but I still remember not understanding it at all.

P.S, I agree that sony can't kill microsoft off, but keeping thier market share low would be a victory IMHO.

[Mitri]

I think XBox hardware is not very innovative, its a copy of the old generation implemented with todays technology all with the intention to keep costs down. The Xenon has unified shaders, that is somewhat new, but we haven't seen RSX or Hollywood yet, the unified shaders may not give any noticable advantage. I don't think MS is breaking new ground in any major way, while Sony with blueray+cell and Nintendo with the controller are doing that.

i don't think that at the current moment anyone is breaking new ground. i think this was the most un changeing gen yet and nex gen is no different. for the nex gen Sony will be using a new disc format like they did with the ps2 to boost sales so that their format wins the war and they will be using a computer processor which will even more blur the line between console and computer. much like what MS did with putting a computer processor and the hd in the current xbox. IMO nintendo took a light gun shaped it as a remote and called it innovative.

[OutlawAdidas]

That's exactly why Nintendo is creating its own market entirely. They realize they can't ever hope to compete with Microsoft or Sony now, and are establishing their own niche market to give them permanence.

nintendo could definetly compete. its not about the money. They realize that they are working for the consumers, and not the consumers paying them to work for us. If that makes any sense

[Danji]

If you saw no change in games between this console and last then you can't hope to see any changes in any generation that aren't marketed to hell or physically/visually apparent.

[Domination]

These articles are getting to be a bit ridiculous, and dont seem to be doing anything other than playing to the media. The whole MS and Sony thing is made out to be some kind of retro crusade here with this next gen to be the determining factor. Really now give me a break. Im willing to bet that in 10 20 even 30 years down the road, MS and Sony are still going to be competitors much as they are now.

So long as you don't pay too much attention to who can kill who off first, I think they can prove very informative. http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/wink2.gif

Oh, and what about Nintendo? :spiral:

Also, I expect others to enter the market in ten or more years. You forget, Microsoft and Sony are threatening a lot of profitable industries.

i don't think that at the current moment anyone is breaking new ground. i think this was the most un changeing gen yet and nex gen is no different. for the nex gen Sony will be using a new disc format like they did with the ps2 to boost sales so that their format wins the war and they will be using a computer processor which will even more blur the line between console and computer. much like what MS did with putting a computer processor and the hd in the current xbox. IMO nintendo took a light gun shaped it as a remote and called it innovative.

If, and only if, it turns up true that the PS3 lacks PC functionality, then I would agree that we could probably compare the system to the PS2 console when it launched with DVD playback. Other than that, I think it's still early.

[Z]

and only if, it turns up true that the PS3 lacks PC functionality, then I would agree that we could probably compare the system to the PS2 console when it launched with DVD playback. Other than that, I think it's still early.
not at all. as with the PS2's case, PS3 will have the same 'feel' of bringing new experiences as PS2 did with DVD. now PS3 brings in HD movies. the same move being made doesn't mean the is nothing new on the table. rather, PS3 repeats that same success (or ought to to be more precise).

[Killing Moon]

I'm not sure where they got their information that Rockstar initially went to Microsoft for the publishing of GTAIII, but it's untrue. I believe that they have it mixed up. Rockstar initially was going to buy the rights to one of two games from Bungie: Halo or Oni. Unfortunately, we know what happened here and MS eventually bought Bungie as a whole.

Little do people know, the President of Rockstar isn't very fond of the Xbox in any manner. He just went for the inevitable ports for "other" reasons much later on.

However, Rockstar NEVER went to MS for GTAIII's publishing opportunities.

[xbdestroya]

@Saxdawg: Best part of the article by far!

Just utterly hilarious.

[Domination]

not at all. as with the PS2's case, PS3 will have the same 'feel' of bringing new experiences as PS2 did with DVD. now PS3 brings in HD movies. the same move being made doesn't mean the is nothing new on the table. rather, PS3 repeats that same success (or ought to to be more precise).


Maybe you misuderstood me. I'm speaking strictly of DVD playback and not the systems success as a whole. When the PS2 was delivered, the most popular side of the console was DVD playback right out of the box. Everything else fell afterwards. With the PS3, not everyone is focused just on the DVD player anymore. It's mainly the raw power of the console that seems to be grabbing peoples' attention. ;-]

[Z]

true dat. I also believe PS3 will be the leader mascot for the BD push. Playstations have been the most successful consumer electronic devices, you can bet they can make anything mainstream if the added to them. imagine what would happen if they added a foot massager with them. they will be 'in' in no time!

[Domination]

@Saxdawg: Best part of the article by far!

Just utterly hilarious.

I gotta agree as well with the both of you. When I first saw that, I was left in complete shock when I found that he was actually anticipating a war with Microsoft, and with sheer confidence at that, long before it ever happened. I thought I quoted it, but I guess I didn't. It really makes me ponder what else he thinks could happen and how he plans to prepare himself for it.

[venomv]

With the PS3, not everyone is focused just on the DVD player anymore. It's mainly the raw power of the console that seems to be grabbing peoples' attention. ;-]

I think that is because of a lot of people's idea that the PS2 was intentionally weaker then the XBox and GC. When the reality as you guys know is that it was simply released sooner, and was blind sided by the XBox. And the differnce isn't as much as most people make it out to be. So now when it's looking like the PS3's gonna be the most powerful people are really excited about it, because it is a lot different then the last gen was. The Killzone trailer at E3 was sensacional(sp), and that made a pretty big differnce also, I'm sure of it.

[Handycrap101]

By far the best part of the article lol!


I never knew MS turned down publishing rights for GTA3! They made all kinds of mistakes this gen and are looking to make even more next gen starting with their choice of optical format for games.

I now have a better understanding of Moore's feelings towards Sony, especially Ken Kutaragi. I bet he loses sleep knowing that no matter how well the 360 does (or any future MS console for that matter), he will never see Sony and Ken Kutaragi "Dreamcasted" the same way he was! PS2 gave that console a legendary status LOL!

I have a feeling that they will be trying a little too hard on the 360 marketing (has anyone seen the LAME double-dutch commercial in theaters?), turning people that haven't decided yet off from it while I expect PS3 advertising to be more cerebral(ala URNOTe campaign, maybe we'll see the W3LCOME CHANGE campaign next year), the type that actually stimulates talk and discussion which leads to......<get ready for it>.....hype.

Ha, Yes I have and for some reason I don't understand why is it so difficult to make a good flashy commercial that will make the average gamer of America (and around the world) want to buy their console. If I wasn't so into gaming and I just saw that commercial I would be of course intrigued to see that MS is making a new system but to go about advertising it as "Jump in"...Just is a turn off.

Not to mention (by no means people don't take this the wrong way but this is the world we live in and people actually do think this way) the commercial was based in an urban area with (trying to be politically correct) African Americans jumping rope...Giving it that "poor" atmosphere. I for one could care less WHO is in the commercial but there are people in the world who do and you can bet it DOES affect how certain individuals base there opinion on a product (this being aside from how crappy the commercial actually was). Up untill the end I had NO IDEA what was going on and still don't really understand it...It's just a bad commercial on MS's part on trying to advertise their new console.

*Now once again, I'm not trying to hurt/offend anyone with my post. I'm simply trying to state that some people on this planet do see that negatively and it will make them have second thoughts about the system.*

[jaxmkii]

i don't think that at the current moment anyone is breaking new ground. i think this was the most un changeing gen yet and nex gen is no different. for the nex gen Sony will be using a new disc format like they did with the ps2 to boost sales so that their format wins the war and they will be using a computer processor which will even more blur the line between console and computer. much like what MS did with putting a computer processor and the hd in the current xbox. IMO nintendo took a light gun shaped it as a remote and called it innovative.
to be truly honest with ourselfs we have to ask just what more can be done with gaming? just keep making them more powerfull its all that can be done! untill neuro uplinking is common place gaming will still be traped in a 2D screen and a few speakers to hear with. thats only 2 of our scences. we'll only have buttons to manipulate this world.

you want inovations i chalenge the gaming world to make use of ALL of our cognitive abilitys!!!=-o

[Z]

yup. but that is why things like EyeToy and Rev's controller are for; exploring possibilities. also, some talk about innovation as something that comes everyday. well, wake up and smell the cow. it doesn't. that is why everybody tries to focus on it.

untill neuro uplinking is common place gaming will still be traped in a 2D screen and a few speakers to hear with
have you seen Sony's granted patent for a Matrix like experience? hehehe

[archash]

yup. but that is why things like EyeToy and Rev's controller are for; exploring possibilities

up until now i'm not sure what they plan on doing with the rev's controller, i does seem to be a little awkward to hold, but i'm still waiting to be surprised on nintendo's plans(they are unusually tight-lipped about their plans these days)

untill neuro uplinking is common place gaming will still be traped in a 2D screen and a few speakers to hear with

when they find a way to do neurolinks without putting a hole at the back uf our heads i'll be sure to sign up for that!:1337:

[Z]

hehe, that is the catch; unlike the premative Matrix method where they stab your brain from the back of your head with a foot long nail, Sony uses pulses of ultrasound. cool huh?
check it out:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18624944.600
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/42081.html

suddenly, Live in 'Your World, Play in Ours' seems to have a whole new meaning...

[archash]

hehe, that is the catch; unlike the premative Matrix method where they stab your brain from the back of your head with a foot long nail, Sony uses pulses of ultrasound. cool huh?
check it out:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18624944.600
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/42081.html

suddenly, Live in 'Your World, Play in Ours' seems to have a whole new meaning...
a couple of great reads there^^:rockon:

[Red_Eyes]

I'm not sure where they got their information that Rockstar initially went to Microsoft for the publishing of GTAIII, but it's untrue. I believe that they have it mixed up. Rockstar initially was going to buy the rights to one of two games from Bungie: Halo or Oni. Unfortunately, we know what happened here and MS eventually bought Bungie as a whole.

Little do people know, the President of Rockstar isn't very fond of the Xbox in any manner. He just went for the inevitable ports for "other" reasons much later on.

However, Rockstar NEVER went to MS for GTAIII's publishing opportunities.

Link? Otherwise, I'll just believe the article.

[Domination]

I think that is because of a lot of people's idea that the PS2 was intentionally weaker then the XBox and GC. When the reality as you guys know is that it was simply released sooner, and was blind sided by the XBox. And the differnce isn't as much as most people make it out to be. So now when it's looking like the PS3's gonna be the most powerful people are really excited about it, because it is a lot different then the last gen was. The Killzone trailer at E3 was sensacional(sp), and that made a pretty big differnce also, I'm sure of it.

I'm speaking power in general and not just graphically.

[venomv]

But Sony has only shown videos, therefore the only power we can accually see is graphics, we can't really see good AI and physics yet because we have no gameplay.

[Domination]

But Sony has only shown videos, therefore the only power we can accually see is graphics, we can't really see good AI and physics yet because we have no gameplay.
No. Sony showed the capabilities of the Cell as well, which are non related to gameplay.

[venomv]

Yes they had the tech demos at E3 but that doesn't have much to do with accual games. Some of the things they did might not be doable if you added them together, meaning if you put the lighting demo with a sound and physics demos it might be to much for the PS3. And they still haven't shown new AI, which would be complicated showing with a tech demo.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

A little off, but what was the meaning behind that whole URNOTe marketing? I was younger at the time but I still remember not understanding it at all.

P.S, I agree that sony can't kill microsoft off, but keeping thier market share low would be a victory IMHO.

U (you) R (are) Not E (Red-E=ready)

[Lumine]

I wonder if it was just a fluke that Kutaragi identified Microsoft as the big competitor in 1994? Given that degree for foresight, I wonder if Sony has any plans to work with google for an online community gaming experience. That would actually be pretty amusing, google and sony paired up against microsofty

[woundingchaney]

But Sony has only shown videos, therefore the only power we can accually see is graphics, we can't really see good AI and physics yet because we have no gameplay.


As with the graphic display of power that as well is questionable (not with all the videos just the pre-rendered cut scene type ones).

Sony is not in a position right now where they need to show gameplay. There really isnt too much reason for them to, especially with the media eating up these trailers they are displaying. Im still holding my reservations on some of these statements being made about the PS3, because some of them seem to lay outside of the capabilities of the machine. Although I have no doubt that the PS3 will be an impressive piece of hardware.

[Z]

with Havk comments about PS3's physics capability along with numerous demos about other features, like Dom said, everyone now agrees that PS3 is the technically superior system. it will have many computation abilities that are unrivaled by the other systems like lighting, raw computation, shaders, physics, new technical features, etc.

of course the ball will be thrown to devs to see how will they utilize these advanced features- or by how much.

[venomv]

As with the graphic display of power that as well is questionable (not with all the videos just the pre-rendered cut scene type ones).

Sony is not in a position right now where they need to show gameplay. There really isnt too much reason for them to, especially with the media eating up these trailers they are displaying. Im still holding my reservations on some of these statements being made about the PS3, because some of them seem to lay outside of the capabilities of the machine. Although I have no doubt that the PS3 will be an impressive piece of hardware.

Yeah I agree, but some of the videos where real-time and those are really the only ones anyone should be looking at. What stands out right now is MGS4, it looks better then any of the trailers I've seen from the X360, but I havn't seen a whole lot of them since E3. I also havn't played an X360 but I'm gonna check a Wal-Mart in Indy while I'm there tommarow, maybe it will have one.

[Mitri]

Yeah I agree, but some of the videos where real-time and those are really the only ones anyone should be looking at. What stands out right now is MGS4, it looks better then any of the trailers I've seen from the X360, but I havn't seen a whole lot of them since E3.

can you tell me which videos were real time? i'm not saying this because i don't believe you but i want to know which ones were. and please please don't say killzone.

i didn't see much more than more detail in the character models in the MGS4 trailer. i am still on a neutral stand as to which is more graphically power between the 360 and the ps3. but i also don't think that is what really matters nex gen. i think what matters is the ease for the devs to make a game and the constant flow of titles.

also when you go to see the games. they aren't all that impressive because they aren't the final game. (i played most of them and got booted from EBGames for taking to much time. lol.)

[chrismt]

Well the E3 Cell demos (including London), MGS4, Final Fantasy VII Demo, Gundam, RE5?, and Oni? are confirmed. Killzone was sped up and the rest of the games aren't really explained in great detail to the best of my knowledge. But I am sure I'm missing some games so please correct me for likely being wrong:)

I agree about the character models (except for Otacon who looks the best of them all imo), but the thing about the demo is it includes great looking character models in a huge environment with tons of effects like explosions, dust, etc. The overall effect of it all is what has people raving about it being better than all the 360 games (I agree with them). I don't think the PS3 will really have that hard a time finding developer support based on the massive userbase of the PS2 and the userbase PS3 will likely have.

I also agree about the games being underwhelming, but they should be fairly accurate representations of the final products. I think COD2 looks far worse on the 360 than on a PC, and I saw it in action on one of my friend's mid-range PC.

[Z]

can you tell me which videos were real time? i'm not saying this because i don't believe you but i want to know which ones were. and please please don't say killzone.
don't worry, I will only mention the games that the devs have said that what you see is all in-game happening in real time:
Gundam (PS Meeting footage, only missing shadows, smoke and other minor details from the E3 equivilant)
Armored Core 4 (there is a thread comparing both version of PS3 and X2)
MGS4 (they even paused it and played with different filters on the fly ala Unreal Tournament's TGS demo)
Fight Night 3 (check the in game CG thread for more info)
Lair (that is freaking amazing now in both poly count and details. freakin 170,000 polys for main character and 100,000 for all the rest?! were are talking about doezen's here!)
WarHawk (unbelieveable water effects. the best ocean render ever seen!)
Endless Saga (unbelieveable, and to add, it is a freakin' MMORPG for God's sake!)
Heavinly Sword (God of War meets Devil May Cry Meets Dynasty Worriors! final game will sport thousands of soldiers with that detail!)
Unreal Tournament (the first ever PS3 game demo)
Killing Day (nice distructable enviornments)

there are others but the're not that impressive (though some of them still look better than some X2 offerings) these are:
Fifth Phantom Saga (current gen graphics)
Eyedentify (a runer up to PDZ and DoA4 for the ugliest so called 'next' gen game)

we can go to other safe bets like Alan Wake, I-8, etc. but no need.

[chrismt]

Man I can't believe I forgot about all those games. I thought Killing Day looked pretty great but maybe I was sleepy. Also didn't know about them toggling the effects of the MGS4 demo. Does anyone have a trailer of that up yet?

[Z]

after the Sony's opening TGS show where they showed everything at once, Konamu had already announced they will show the trailer more in depth at their own booth. Kojima was actually playing the game infront of every body (God, I would have KILLED to be there!). he also played with the camera and angles and moved it everywhere. he then explained that some filters were put in the game to give the game that MGS feel to it. that is when he started turning on/off some of the filter effects of the game like making everything crystal clear, adding more dust and noise, etc. to show off they different 'feel' the game has.

to note, at the PS Meeting, Epic also paused Unreal Tournament and turned on/off the shaders to show the difference between current gen and next-gen graphics. it is all about the shaders this gen after all. I tell you, the difference was like night and day. for this demo, you can download it from the game's section from IGN, Gametrailers, etc. for the MGS TGS live demo, I am hoping the TGS Access DVD has a glimps about it. you can order the DVD from Lik-Sang (http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=313&products_id=7537&) for just $9.95. it is 'over 3 hours'.

PS. you are right. Killing Day is good enough to be added with the rest. *edited it*

[O.D.S]

To chrismt:

Well i couldnt find the video yet, but heres a few screens from that real time demo:

http://img120.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=954_mgs401.jpg]
http://img120.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_954_mgs401.jpg
http://img20.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=c76_mgs402.jpg
http://img20.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_c76_mgs402.jpg
http://img108.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=e92_mgs408.jpg
http://img108.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_e92_mgs408.jpg
http://img121.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=4a2_mgs409.jpg
http://img121.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_4a2_mgs409.jpg
http://img105.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=59c_mgs410.jpg
http://img105.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_59c_mgs410.jpg
http://img22.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=d22_mgs411.jpg
http://img22.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_d22_mgs411.jpg
http://img15.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=c1c_mgs412.jpg
http://img15.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_c1c_mgs412.jpg
http://img16.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=480_mgs413.jpg
http://img16.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_480_mgs413.jpg
http://img102.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=563_mgs414.jpg
http://img102.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_563_mgs414.jpg
http://img104.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=a5c_mgs415.jpg
http://img104.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_a5c_mgs415.jpg
http://img109.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=2dc_mgs416.jpg
http://img109.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_2dc_mgs416.jpg
http://img13.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=c42_mgs417.jpg
http://img13.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_c42_mgs417.jpg
http://img23.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=44e_mgs418.jpg
http://img23.imagevenue.com/loc24/th_44e_mgs418.jpg