Ken Kutaragi's keynote speech @ ISSCC 2006 (Feb.6th)

[Nerve-Damage]

Source: (http://www.isscc.org/isscc/2006/ap/2006_AP_Final.pdf)

Credit: One (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26101)

Monday, February 6th

SESSION 1
PLENARY SESSION - INVITED PAPERS

1.3 The Future of Computing for Real-Time Entertainment

11:05AM

Ken Kutaragi, President and CEO of SONY Computer Entertainment, Tokyo, Japan

There are two elements in real-timeliness that a human being can intuitively sense. One is the continuity of motion that a human being can cognitively feel to be natural, and the other is response time between action and reaction. Correspondingly, of the applications that have advanced the concept of real-time computing is computer entertainment systems which originally started as computer games. Real-timeliness of computer entertainment systems must be quick enough to match the speed of the response time of the player. Lack of both processing power and data-transfer rate in achieving this level of real-timeliness using general-purpose microprocessors have motivated the development of a new breed of more-powerful processors built on a new architecture.

In computer entertainment systems, since the hardware is normally fixed for several years, once its specifications are determined, there is an inclination to seek the most-advanced technology within the future roadmap, typically that of three years ahead, and one generation ahead in the semiconductor-fabrication process. As a consequence, a system must start off by utilizing large-size chipsets at launch, but, during its life cycle, it goes through two generations of semiconductor fabrication processes for downsizing, as well as progressive integration of chips to reduce manufacturing costs, and to enable mass production. Today, more than 40 million computer entertainment systems are shipped in a year, and are becoming a strong leading power in spearheading advancement in semiconductor technology and in creating demand.

In the future of real-time computing, massive assembly of "Parallel computing over the network" to execute vast amounts of computation, and "Vision System" that recognize the real world, in real-time, from a vast number of sensors over the network, will lead the next era in real-time computing.


Also, for Cell,

Quote:

Thursday, February 9th
10:40 The Cell Processor’s Multicore Architecture: Impact and Influence of Physical Design
James Kahle, IBM, Austin, TX

[Sephiroth_VII]

"Febuary 6", is that 2006, or has it already happened?

[Nerve-Damage]

"Febuary 6", is that 2006, or has it already happened?

No not you now Sephiroth_VII.....LOL :laugh: {read thread title Sephiroth_VII}

[Handycrap101]

Well by this time shouldn't we already be filled with news to drool over after CES? I also doubt there won't be too much to be said since we are expecting that PS3 blowout at the end of Feb.

[xbdestroya]

This will be a more technical presentation dealing more or less with 'realtimeness' and what it means in terms of both computing and user experience, and delve into the entire grid computing paradigm we're moving towards - and I imagine, Cell's place within that.

It won't be catering to the average gamer, that's for sure. I expect more on that at CES, or Sony's later February event, that may indeed incorporate portions of this ISSCC presentation.

[CrumCon]

I have a strong feeling Kutaragi will how us the true form of PS3 titles such as Killzone, MotorStorm and big 3rd party titles.

i really really really hope so..

[pari]

In ISSCC'05, South Korean Minister gave the Keynote speech it was kinda of interesting but..... and man sitting in that was....
I hope ISSCC'06 keynote speech would be interesting and I am able to attend it.

[julps31]

It looks like early 2006 is gonna be a sweet time for use ps3 fans. Hopefully we'll see actually games. The excitment is a good thing becuase it keeps us on the edge on our seats. I can't wait to see Killzone, MGS4, Tekken 6 ect. Hopefully they'll have actually gameplay videos or demos for us to see. Well I just gotta wait and see.

[Kb-smoker]

ken kutaragi will have the keynote for this event on feb 6.


Monday, February 6th

SESSION 1
PLENARY SESSION - INVITED PAPERS

1.3 The Future of Computing for Real-Time Entertainment

11:05AM

Ken Kutaragi, President and CEO of SONY Computer Entertainment, Tokyo, Japan

There are two elements in real-timeliness that a human being can intuitively sense. One is the continuity of motion that a human being can cognitively feel to be natural, and the other is response time between action and reaction. Correspondingly, of the applications that have advanced the concept of real-time computing is computer entertainment systems which originally started as computer games. Real-timeliness of computer entertainment systems must be quick enough to match the speed of the response time of the player. Lack of both processing power and data-transfer rate in achieving this level of real-timeliness using general-purpose microprocessors have motivated the development of a new breed of more-powerful processors built on a new architecture.

In computer entertainment systems, since the hardware is normally fixed for several years, once its specifications are determined, there is an inclination to seek the most-advanced technology within the future roadmap, typically that of three years ahead, and one generation ahead in the semiconductor-fabrication process. As a consequence, a system must start off by utilizing large-size chipsets at launch, but, during its life cycle, it goes through two generations of semiconductor fabrication processes for downsizing, as well as progressive integration of chips to reduce manufacturing costs, and to enable mass production. Today, more than 40 million computer entertainment systems are shipped in a year, and are becoming a strong leading power in spearheading advancement in semiconductor technology and in creating demand.

In the future of real-time computing, massive assembly of "Parallel computing over the network" to execute vast amounts of computation, and "Vision System" that recognize the real world, in real-time, from a vast number of sensors over the network, will lead the next era in real-time computing.

so do you guys think we wil get any new ps3 or cell info out of this?

source- http://www.isscc.org/isscc/2006/ap/2006_AP_Final.pdf
offical site: http://www.isscc.org/isscc/

[lip2lip]

i'm jazzed!

[Kb-smoker]

also do you guys think with the little bit of info at CEs that we might gets some new details on the working of the ps3 or cell?

[cliffbo]

i'm jazzed!

I've jizzed!

[xbdestroya]

also do you guys think with the little bit of info at CEs that we might gets some new details on the working of the ps3 or cell?

You mean ISSCC right? I think we're going to get more Cell information, for sure. Not sure either how much or how 'big.' It's not really the kind of place where I would imagine any console tie-ins be done, but at the same time there's always an outside chance. Still if I'd have to guess I'd have to say 'yes' to Cell info, 'no' to PS3 info.

[cliffbo]

You mean ISSCC right? I think we're going to get more Cell information, for sure. Not sure either how much or how 'big.' It's not really the kind of place where I would imagine any console tie-ins be done, but at the same time there's always an outside chance. Still if I'd have to guess I'd have to say 'yes' to Cell info, 'no' to PS3 info.

if we all wish perhaps our dreams will come true... theres no place like home...theres no place like home... theres.... dream a little Xb. get off the fence and put your rep on the line. dare to dare. live the dream... i think your right though :ko:

[BruceWayneIII]

You mean ISSCC right? I think we're going to get more Cell information, for sure. Not sure either how much or how 'big.' It's not really the kind of place where I would imagine any console tie-ins be done, but at the same time there's always an outside chance. Still if I'd have to guess I'd have to say 'yes' to Cell info, 'no' to PS3 info.

Agreed, we have to remember that PlayStation 3 is ONE, single end-user product, from ONE part of Sony. Cell in itself is very important to different industries, the research was simply too heavy to justify a one-product strategy. ISSCC is a great platform for visions about Cell and networked Cells, but it's primarily about industry-applications.

[Red]

They presented last year the cell chip so this time they will give us more information about the cell chip. I hope they will gave us some good news but i gave it up to hope every time to get ps3 pwnage news and after there was nothing and myself is very dissapointed.

[Z]

it's almost Feb., when will they announce the much anticipated PS Meeting?

[VG Aficionado]

it's almost Feb., when will they announce the much anticipated PS Meeting?That's what I've been wondering about all the time! :) I still refuse to believe any rumours to avoid disappointment, but I hope we will know something in February, any day now.

[Z]

well, I expect that a date will be set at least a week from the event. of course other events like this one and the DevStation meeting will still take place. I am just more interested in a public showcase.

[Sephiroth_VII]

No not you now Sephiroth_VII.....LOL :laugh: {read thread title Sephiroth_VII}
Hey, what's that supposed to mean!?!?!:rant:
Oh well...:whogives:

Anyway, I agree with xb on the subject of PS3 info. Nada.:closed:

[koldfuzion]

All this talk of massively parallel network cell's I think the Terminator may be in attendance and kidnap KK. Be nice to get some clarity finally on what he's been babbling about re the Cell server and all that, which is how I got interested in this board in the first place. So far he's been more opaque than Alan Greenspan. Could be interesting. :)

[Red]

Does anyboy here truely believe's that we will get some interesting news from ken on monday. I don't think so. He will talk about the cell Chip and how good blu ray is but i think thats all. This Event won't gave us new PWNAGE INFOS.
:cry:

[xbdestroya]

Pwnage infos?

Ok no, I don't think anyone's expecting anything interesting PS3 related from Ken here, but that IBM will be showing off some new Cell servers I think is interesting. The fact that Cell will be discussed to this extent for a second year in a row at the show is exciting in and of itself.

[Sklaar]

Maybe he tells us the date of the playstation event?

[TEEDA]

Last year Sony unveiled the first infos on the CELL at the ISSCC 2005. I don t think they will talk about PS3 directly....

[julps31]

Maybe he tells us the date of the playstation event?I was thinking that too. He might unveil the PS conference details at isscc.

[frosty]

well, it would not be wise for sony to wait too long to tell us about the event. they need to leave time to get the word out.

[Darkon]

I was thinking that too. He might unveil the PS conference details at isscc.


Why the heck would they do that at ISSCC ?

[Danji]

That's not likely at all. He will describe the different things the PS3 is capable of (I think..) but chances are that he isn't really going to aim to please (us) with that conference.

[julps31]

Why the heck would they do that at ISSCC ?Why not? If the February event was later in the month than they could address it.

[liver_kick]

Why not? If the February event was later in the month than they could address it.

Maybe Im wrong, but ISSCC doesn't strike me as the type of gathering to promote that kind of thing. Kutaragi's keynote will likely be a very broad outlook on the roadmap for Cell and Cell-based computing, not just for the Playstation platform. But KK always has some insane futuristic Pie in the Sky shit to say so I always look forward to it. ;)

[BlueTsunami]

I would just expect Cell and Cell Computing. How it will effect the future of general computing and where Cell is leading us (as others have already stated).

[MasaC]

Well, it is interesting from a PS3-viewpoint of things as it is Ken Kutaragi, the father of Playstation and present Playstation Boss, and not Sir Howard Stringer, present Boss of Sony, speaking.

[xbdestroya]

Kutaragi was head of the Semiconductor division during Cell's inception though, and the man who willed the chip into existence in the first place. Not to mention he's an engineer and the head of the division at Sony which will put the Cell to it's largest initial use. I mean to me having Kutaragi speak makes total sense whether he says anything PS3 related or not. If it were Stringer, I mean that would just be ridiculous almost - a movie exec doing a keynote for a semiconductor industry conference.

[Smokey]

is the feb event still even on??

[BlueTsunami]

is the feb event still even on??

Thats totally the million dollar question...now word as of yet

[Smokey]

Thats totally the million dollar question...now word as of yet
im waiting with baited breath though :happy:

[Helgunn]

I would just expect Cell and Cell Computing. How it will effect the future of general computing and where Cell is leading us (as others have already stated).
Hardware isn't going to lead us anywhere, software, viva la win!

[MasaC]

Kutaragi was head of the Semiconductor division during Cell's inception though, and the man who willed the chip into existence in the first place.

Yes, but back then (ISSCC2005) Ken Kutaragi was Boss of Sony. But I agree pretty much with the rest of your reasoning except for that it would be ridiculous if it were Sir Howard Stringer holding the keynote. Sony is part of the joint venture that is the Cell Microprocessor and Stringer is boss of Sony.

[BlueTsunami]

Hardware isn't going to lead us anywhere, software, viva la win!

Thats a very shortsided vision and also as one progresses it doesn't mean the other stalls (referring to Hardware and Software). With that said, the main focus with Cell and Sony IS the Hardware aspect (for now). I find that statement funny also, seeing how i'm working off an outdated system that is X86 computers. Theres going to be a point were the Hardware needs to catch up to the Software. That time is now.

[xbdestroya]

Yes, but back then (ISSCC2005) Ken Kutaragi was Boss of Sony. But I agree pretty much with the rest of your reasoning except for that it would be ridiculous if it were Sir Howard Stringer holding the keynote. Sony is part of the joint venture that is the Cell Microprocessor and Stringer is boss of Sony.

Well what do you mean 'Boss of Sony' though? Because if you mean CEO, then it was Idei back during ISSCC of 2005, not Kutaragi. Stringer no doubt is current head of Sony, but why in the world would he put himself up on the stage rather than the man actually responsible for the chip, who worked on it for five years? Not to mention ISSCC would have coordinated on these peoples keynotes - so Kutaragi would make sense within the context of the conference, but to me Stringer just wouldn't.

[Goki]

Ok ive been missing a lot here, but i just want to know, when is the date for full blown out info on ps3 rsx, online play and everything going to be shown again?

[xbdestroya]

Ok ive been missing a lot here, but i just want to know, when is the date for full blown out info on ps3 rsx, online play and everything going to be shown again?

Nobody knows. :cheers:

[Sephiroth_VII]

I think you made him cry ;). No one knows wether it even exist anymore. Heck, we haven't heard ONE WORD from sony about this event.

[xbdestroya]

I think you made him cry ;). No one knows wether it even exist anymore. Heck, we haven't heard ONE WORD from sony about this event.

Well we *never* knew it existed, we just thought and assumed based on some random quotes. That's why I keep telling people to moderate their expectations! :)

But honestly for myself I'm still not ruling a Feb event out.

But this thread is about ISSCC, so let's keep it on that topic. Only a couple of more days to go.

[nwo504]

i guess we should be expecting SOME news tonite!?

[Goki]

wtf first it was CES now this, im starting to have my doubts on this forum as realible news nowadays lol jk

[xbdestroya]

Why is everyone posting about info dates in the ISSCC thread?

Stop it people! There's a seperate thread for this.

[cliffbo]

tomorrow night should be interesting. who will get the speach? well i'm going to bet on nerve, but it could be xb...

[overclocked]

I wouldnt expect much of KK keynote to be honest if many of you think about specs etz. It will be something soft and probably philosophic as he always speak that way.

[raVen]

do we expect anything ps3 related from "game over" tonight?

[Handycrap101]

Well we *never* knew it existed, we just thought and assumed based on some random quotes. That's why I keep telling people to moderate their expectations! :)

But honestly for myself I'm still not ruling a Feb event out.

But this thread is about ISSCC, so let's keep it on that topic. Only a couple of more days to go.

Actually Xb... we did know. This slide pretty much confirmed a Playstation conference in February. It's the fact of whether or not it was canceled. According to this there will be a conference this month and in the next few month PS3 will launch in X region. Also according to a Sony quote not long ago they confirmed everything was going according to schedule. So I beleive there is no reason to not expect a showing this month.

4845

It clearly reads: "2006 2 PLAYSTATION Conference"

[xbdestroya]

Yeah I'm aware of the slides, and as I said I would still expect something for this month. But if something does not happen, would you say that Sony 'lied' to us? I personally would not. But nor would I take a slide as a guarantee of anything; simply as a plan at the time it was shown.

[Handycrap101]

Yeah I'm aware of the slides, and as I said I would still expect something for this month. But if something does not happen, would you say that Sony 'lied' to us? I personally would not. But nor would I take a slide as a guarantee of anything; simply as a plan at the time it was shown.

Of course I would call it lying... They showed a slide that displays information of something that is coming this month... and if they don't deliver without telling us that it isn't going to happen, then it's a lie. I don't really care in the end though... As long as I have a PS3 before this christmas I will be happy.

[O.D.S]

Inpatience is wearing thin among a few members. I say weve waited almost a whole year for PS3 info (since E3), 1 more day wouldnt hurt.

And even if tommorow doesnt bear ANY new information (which IMO has to have some PS3 significance since its KK talking) then we'll set our sites on E3 2006.

[Kb-smoker]

any site covering this speech?

live feed would be awesome!

[xbdestroya]

No sites that I know, but I would watch EETimes, Realworldtech, Arstechnica, and Anandtech for possible info coming out of the conference.

[Crossbar]

This is what I believe to be the core content of his speach. Because this is the only part of Kutaragis speach that is what ISSCC is about.
In computer entertainment systems, since the hardware is normally fixed for several years, once its specifications are determined, there is an inclination to seek the most-advanced technology within the future roadmap, typically that of three years ahead, and one generation ahead in the semiconductor-fabrication process. As a consequence, a system must start off by utilizing large-size chipsets at launch, but, during its life cycle, it goes through two generations of semiconductor fabrication processes for downsizing, as well as progressive integration of chips to reduce manufacturing costs, and to enable mass production.
My guess is he will talk about the cost reduction plans of the cell and the RSX, maybe not using their names but refering the technology they use. Hopefully this will give us some new info. :thumpsup:

[Sklaar]

ISSCC: Ken Kutaragi hält Grundstzrede

06.02.06 - Ken Kutaragi, Präsident und CEO von Sony Computer Entertainment, wird auf der ISSCC (International Solid-State Circuits Conference) am 07.02.06 eine Grundsatzrede halten.

Kutaragi spricht über das Thema 'Die Zukunft des Rechnens für Echtzeit-Unterhaltung' und will über die Geschichte sowie die zukünftigen Trends der Computer-Technik sprechen. Wie die Nikkei Business Publications schreibt, soll er auch über den Cell-Chip und die PlayStation3 sprechen.

http://www.gamefront.de/

Translation of the last line: Nikkei Business Publications write that he also will talk about the Cell-Chip and the Playstation3.

[cliffbo]

its only 12.50 there folks be patient... lets say two hours worth of speach overall. 1 hour stranlation. 1.30 to write it up and post it. i'd say 7 to 7.30 will be game on. thats in britain though.

ignore this its completely wrong. :)
ps: strike that i was right its 1.20 and counting

[xbdestroya]

It's actually 8am there right now - Kutaragi's speech is in three hours, and it'll probably be another few hours after that before interesting information is released via whatever web sites.

[cliffbo]

It's actually 8am there right now - Kutaragi's speech is in three hours, and it'll probably be another few hours after that before interesting information is released via whatever web sites.

Xb where did you get that time from i've just checked and its 1.20!

off topic: how do you change a link into another word or graphic that still goes to the same link?

[xbdestroya]

Cliffbo - I live in the United States, the East Coast is 12:15pm right now, the West Coast is three hours behind. What in the world are you using to calculate your time zones?

Two more hours until the speech.

[cliffbo]

Cliffbo - I live in the United States, the East Coast is 12:15pm right now, the West Coast is three hours behind. What in the world are you using to calculate your time zones?

Two more hours until the speech.

just looked at google for the current time in japan. originally i just changed my clock on my PC to japan. both times where the same.

[xbdestroya]

just looked at google for the current time in japan. originally i just changed my clock on my PC to japan. both times where the same.

But... why are you looking in Japan? It's in San Francisco.

[cliffbo]

But... why are you looking in Japan? It's in San Francisco.

what!! are you sure i could have sworn it was in japan :) guess i must be wrong... AGAIN. jeeeees

[xbdestroya]

Anyway remember also that this Keynote speech is not the only possible opportunity for Cell information at ISSCC, and as pointed out by Ironlungz in a different thread, IBM will also be unveiling a Cell-based server this Wednesday:

http://news.com.com/IBMs+blade+agenda+Cell+chip%2C+InfiniBand/2100-1010_3-6035077.html?tag=nefd.top

[xbdestroya]

I'm not sure from who and when we'll get the KK keynote address, but I'm sure it's probably over right around now. I do know that EETimes is at ISSCC, and hopefully they'll give us the details on that keynote. Here's something else they put up earlier for those interested, to help pass the time:

SAN FRACISCO — At the International Solid-State Circuits Conference (ISSCC) here, IBM Corp. tipped its next-generation Power6 processor architecture for servers.

In various papers at the event, IBM indicated that the Power6 is a 65-nm processor that operates in excess of 4-GHz. Built around silicon-on-insulator (SOI) and other technologies, the Power6 is the follow-on processor to the company’s current Power5 architecture.

In one paper, the company described a 5.6-GHz Power6 processor with 64-Kb of Level 1 data cache. The processor is said to have an eight-way, set-associative design with a two-stage pipeline supporting two independent reads or one writes per cycle.

IBM also makes use of a 5-GHz duty-cycle correction clock distribution network for the processor. In the network, the company implements a copper distribution wire that is 3 microns wide and 1.2 microns thick.

In another paper, IBM described low-latency fixed-point and binary floating-point units for the Power6. The floating-point unit incorporates “many microarchitectures, logic, circuit, latch and integration techniques to achieve [a] 6-cyle, 13-FO4 pipeline,” according to the company’s paper.

The Power6 design uses dual power supplies, a logic supply in the 0.9-to-1.2 Volt range and an SRAM power supply at about 150-mV higher.

[RavenFox]

In one paper, the company described a 5.6-GHz Power6 processor with 64-Kb of Level 1 data cache. The processor is said to have an eight-way, set-associative design with a two-stage pipeline supporting two independent reads or one writes per cycle.

Sweet holy moly. How soon will these see server base operation?

[xbdestroya]

While we're on it and waiting, this is something else I found from today:

HERZELIA, Israel — The Israeli startup Lenslet has developed a revolutionary electro-optic processor that hits the unprecedented speed of 8 tera calculation operations/second — one thousand times faster than any known digital signal processor.

The company struck a strategic co-operation agreement with Paltek Corp. of Japan for its Enlight processor in the Japanese market, in November 2003. The company was also included on the Silicon60 list of emerging companies in April and October 2004.

The EnLight processor, will be used for intelligence, analysis of intelligence, weather forecasting, airport security, and for multimedia, cellular and video compression applications. The EnLight256 — the first in a line of ultrafast DSPs — can be used for voice analysis, face recognition, image processing and other applications. The device will improve detection and extraction of image and audio features, as well as such parameters as behavioral analysis. Moreover, it will allow reliable automated screening of a massive amount of data to help identify potential threats.

"This quantum leap in computation performance, enabled by optical processing, opens the door to new capabilities in the battlefield of the future, creating strategic implications,” said Major-General Isaac Ben-Israel, former head of the R&D Directorate of the Israeli Ministry of Defense. “It could revolutionize the nature of warfare with an effect similar to that caused by the appearance of the tank or the airplane."

Some potential benefits include enhanced communications in noisy channels, multichannel interference cancellation, multiprotocol receiver (SDR), improved resolution and image for SAR radars, digital beam-forming, enhanced signal detection in EW/RWR systems, and multichannel video compression and processing at high image resolutions (H.264 compression for multi HDTV channels).

In homeland security, applications include improved throughput and detection accuracy for baggage scanning, as well as multisensor threat analysis.

Not too much news on it, but it certainly does target some of the same fields Cell will be aimed at on the high-end of things. Will be interesting to see what ends up happening in that segment.

[Hawk]

According to http://www.gamefront.de/ Kutaragi is going to speak about Cell and PS3.

ISSCC: Ken Kutaragi hält Grundsatzrede

06.02.06 - Ken Kutaragi, Präsident und CEO von Sony Computer Entertainment, wird auf der ISSCC (International Solid-State Circuits Conference) am 07.02.06 eine Grundsatzrede halten.

Kutaragi spricht über das Thema 'Die Zukunft des Rechnens für Echtzeit-Unterhaltung' und will über die Geschichte sowie die zukünftigen Trends der Computer-Technik sprechen. Wie die Nikkei Business Publications schreibt, soll er auch über den Cell-Chip und die PlayStation3 sprechen.

[xbdestroya]

Post #59 Hawk. :)

But the speech is already over - we're just waiting for the news at this point.

[Handycrap101]

Thats pretty exciteing. I wonder what he will say. Perhaps at the end of his speech he will close out with something like "Expect to hear more on Playstation3 (The date of the Feb event)!"

[Hawk]

Post #59 Hawk. :)

But the speech is already over - we're just waiting for the news at this point.
Sorry I'm just so excited to get some news that I had to do something.

[thenubb]

Man I'm so tired of waiting............. Amazing how Sony can capture so many people's attention for free...

[RavenFox]

Man I'm so tired of waiting............. Amazing how Sony can capture so many people's attention for free...
Man you said it. :-)

[Alkemist]

Man I'm so tired of waiting............. Amazing how Sony can capture so many people's attention for free...

My thoughts exactly. Sony definately has gained some wisdom in it's years, even if some of thier marketing tactics drives us crazy. :)

[cliffbo]

My thoughts exactly. Sony definately has gained some wisdom in it's years, even if some of thier marketing tactics drives us crazy. :)

a thirst seldom quenched is a thirst worth quenching

[jako]

I'm getting pessimist, no news on engadget also.... :(

[Alkemist]

a thirst seldom quenched is a thirst worth quenching

Hear hear!


And, hey....it works.

[xbdestroya]

I'm getting pessimist, no news on engadget also.... :(

Engadget? I don't think Engadget's there at ISSCC - they're a little too mainstream. EETimes, maybe Ars, maybe PC-Watch - these are the kinds of sites to watch. And remember there's a delay between when something happens normally and when a story goes up about it. We're not getting any CES real time coverage here.

[jako]

Thanks xb, didn't know that.
From France all theses events seems sooooo far.

[NoZ]

I havent seen any updates yet :( , have any been released?

[Danji]

I seriously think you all are expecting too much of this. Don't be disappointed again and blame sony. I'm looking at you makeitlookreal.

[Sebastiano]

I really don't expect much news out of this. Don't get your hopes to high

[Sephiroth_VII]

What's the San Fracisco GMT time? +1 or -8. What is it?

[cliffbo]

you sit there and the minutes pass by... refresh....refresh... then more news... page 2... whats it gonna be? nothing just me thinking are we going to get anything at all tonight.

[VG Aficionado]

Thanks For Nothing, Ken

Feb 6 2006 1:29PM

The premise seemed so tantalizing; Ken Kutaragi, the 'Father of the PlayStation' and President and CEO of Sony's Computer Entertainment division, was giving an ISSCC keynote on 'The Future of Computing for Real-Time Entertainment'. Coming hot on the heels of the PlayStation 3's baffling no-show at CES, and just a few months ahead of E3 where I expect production schedules for the PS3 will be announced, I figured that Ken would give us something we didn't already know about the console....and maybe show us some real-life running hardware, to boot (pun intended). So I rolled out of bed at 4AM to catch a 5:30AM Amtrak-plus-BART combo to San Francisco....

....and was disappointed once again. I'll summarize Ken's thinly-disguised Sony commercial in four succinct bullets:

* The PlayStation CPU was really big and expensive when we first went into production, but thanks to Moore's Law and around a decade's worth of lithography shrinks, we made it really small and cheap.
* The PlayStation 2 two-chip set was really big and expensive when we first went into production, but thanks to Moore's Law and around a five year's worth of lithography shrinks so far, we've made them so small and cheap that we were able to combine them onto a single chip (Brian's comment: at the cost of imperfect backwards-compatibility).
* The PlayStation Portable CPU is really big and expensive in its first incarnation, but (nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean, know what I mean?) I bet you can guess what we plan to do thanks to Moore's Law and a few years' worth of lithography shrinks.
* I wasn't allowed to show you a Cell die shot, but here's some simulated screenshots of the incredible things it's going to do.....someday....really....trust me....

First there was Stringer's disastrous keynote at CES. Now this. Right on top of the scathing revelations about platform and development tools immaturity published by a promptly-fired Sony employee in the game development team. Granted, I'm no marketing wizard (although I used to be, at least in my own mind), I'm just a simple senior technical editor. Maybe I'm missing the brilliance behind Sony's perpetual smoke-and-mirrors stalling. But I've lost any excitement I might have previously had about Sony's next-generation console (and Blu-ray Trojan Horse). The PS3 feels like the latest in Sony's repeated sequence of promise-much, deliver-little products. And, given what a high percentage of corporate revenue and profit the PlayStation franchise represents, if I'm right then I'm glad I'm not a Sony investor. Or a customer. Know what I mean, know what I mean?Link: edn.com (http://www.edn.com/blog/400000040/post/540002654.html)

[cliffbo]

tell me this aint true someone. Xb lighten the load

[Sephiroth_VII]

KYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!! FUCK NO!! Sigh. Once again, we must leave dissapointed, and empty. I feel like I felt after CES, like having just been flushed down a sewage pipe...

Goodbye cruel world!!!(Thinks about KH2, and FF XII... Slowly puts down the knife.)

[Carn]

I`m getting the idea that we won't see or hear anything until E3, regarding Sony. Maybe some developers will releas screenshots and info.

[jaxmkii]

uhhhmph...

[cliffbo]

a thirst seldom quenched is a thirst worth quenching

it wasn't an oasis after all it was just a mirage, oh well i think i'll just lay down in the sand and let time turn me to bones. :(

[Sephiroth_VII]

Come on. Where's info when we need it? All we wanted was some small tidbit's. Maybe just a date for the feb. event. Yeah, that would be okay but NO. Remind's me of this episode (http://ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20051104) from the Ctrl-alt-del webcomic (www.ctrlaltdel-online.com).

[version]

E3 will be the big day , but some hardware infos will come in marc

[VG Aficionado]

Sony is too quiet on PS3. I confess I'm getting quite desperate for some news. If they're making us starve for so long in order to give us an overload out of the blue, it will feel like getting a couple of fixes in the arm.

[Sephiroth_VII]

You know what? The Viper quote I have in my sig is gettiong more, and more likely by the second...

@VG: A couple? It'll feel like taking 4 kilos of ecstasy, after being clean all for 6 years. Looks like the hospital's will be busy saving all the sony fanboys from dying...

[version]

sony wait for the 65 nm, 4ghz cell , and games

[Handycrap101]

You guys were expecting too much. People like Xb, Danji, and Cpi all stressed we shouldn't expect anything really and now you're all disapointed. Some people on here need to learn how to just control themselves when they hear PS3 is going to be somewhere or KK will be speaking.

You know what? The Viper quote I have in my sig is gettiong more, and more likely by the second...

Well... that's becase Viper=Ken Kutaragi.:angelgrin

[NoZ]

E3 better have something good from them, although I'm not gonna get a PS3, tho if it is good then I might consider it.

[Sephiroth_VII]

sony wait for the 65 nm, 4ghz cell , and games
If only it was so. But then we'd be waiting even longer, and M$ would launch the 720...
Well... that's becase Viper=Ken Kutaragi
NOOO!!! Viper please, give us the release date. PLEEAASEE!!!!!

(J/K)

[cybergrue]

Link: edn.com (http://www.edn.com/blog/400000040/post/540002654.html)
I wasn't allowed to show you a Cell die shot, but here's some simulated screenshots of the incredible things it's going to do.....someday....really....trust me....

Umm, hasn't there been pictures of the Die avaliable since last year??? and also hasn't there been enough examples of real screen shots released, why would he use simulated ones?

Something here doesn't add up. I think its more of a case of sour grapes on the authors part at no new jucy info about the PS3 rather then an attampt to troll, but we need a better sorce of what KK said. Its obvious the guy is an Engineer and not a gamer, so KK may have said something important, and this guy didn't pick up on it.

[version]

If only it was so. But then we'd be waiting even longer, and M$ would launch the 720...

NOOO!!! Viper please, give us the release date. PLEEAASEE!!!!!

(J/K)

no :), my sony's friend told me , launch games will ready in apr...

[Sephiroth_VII]

@Cypergrue: Yeah, he's just joking. Probably to dissaspointed at the lack of news.

[jaxmkii]

You know what? The Viper quote I have in my sig is gettiong more, and more likely by the second...

@VG: A couple? It'll feel like taking 4 kilos of ecstasy, after being clean all for 6 years. Looks like the hospital's will be busy saving all the sony fanboys from dying...
ummm...you droped E@ 8 years old???...

edit:oh NM i see what your sayin

[Shadow Voa]

no :), my sony's friend told me , launch games will ready in apr...

Yea and I walk Ken Kutaragi's dog on weekends :shifty:

[Sephiroth_VII]

@jaxmkii: Lol no, I've never taken drugs, neither ever smoked. I only meant that it's been 6-7 years since the release of PS2, also, that was the last time we got a HUGE blowout like this.

@Shadowvoa: Lol, I'd pay him, just for the honor of being near his dog, and being allowed to collect it from his apartment!! Oh joy!!

[VG Aficionado]

I didn't expect too much from this just like I didn't really expect much beyond some info on Blu-ray at CES, but that doesn't soothe my need of news.

C'mon Sony, just give us one single solid date for some important PS3 information, and save us the pain of uncertainty and doubt that surrounds you.

Yeah, I know they won't be reading my request at all, so I guess all I could expect now is to get some leaked info from March's developers conference.

[jaxmkii]

@jaxmkii: Lol no, I've never taken drugs, neither ever smoked. I only meant that it's been 6-7 years since the release of PS2, also, that was the last time we got a HUGE blowout like this.

@Shadowvoa: Lol, I'd pay him, just for the honor of being near his dog, and being allowed to collect it from his apartment!! Oh joy!! LOL i was going to say your hardcore i was at least 18. BTW stay clean it (drugs) ant worth the money. buy games insted:Carrot:

[Sephiroth_VII]

^same. I wasn't expecting much, after being dissapointed at CES. But come on: "I wasn't allowed to show you a Cell die shot, but here's some simulated screenshots of the incredible things it's going to do.....someday....really....trust me....", this is just to little! That's it, Ken's a sadist.

@Jaxmkii: Lol. Yeah but no one's delivering my monthly PS3 fix. Maybe the drugs will help, yes... Drugs are good. I don't need PS3. I'll just buy some E, they'll never launch new products, and they'd never let you wait SIX YEARS saying nothing...

[Twilight Prince]

hell i think i'll buy all three of them next gen... just for the sake of it. i got some money last year... i think i'll save some instead of just spending it on drugs n hoes

[cliffbo]

^same. I wasn't expecting much, after being dissapointed at CES. But come on: "I wasn't allowed to show you a Cell die shot, but here's some simulated screenshots of the incredible things it's going to do.....someday....really....trust me....", this is just to little! That's it, Ken's a sadist.

@Jaxmkii: Lol. Yeah but no one's delivering my monthly PS3 fix. Maybe the drugs will help, yes... Drugs are good. I don't need PS3. I'll just buy some E, they'll never launch new products, and they'd never let you wait SIX YEARS saying nothing...

wait though, its from the 5-9 its not finished yet mmmmmaaaaaaahhaahhh.

[liver_kick]

http://www.edn.com/blog/400000040/post/540002654.html

Good lord that article was embarrassing to read. Does this guy even know what ISSCC is for? Was he expecting a new Gran Turismo traileror something? This is the "Senior Technical Editor" calling Stringer's CES keynote a disaster and citing the Josh Robinson nonsense as "revelation", ugh. Edn.com's reputation just went down the drain on my end. I swear the wake of this PS3 blackout has exposed the online media of this industry as the amatuerish sensationalist drek it really is.

[Sephiroth_VII]

Josh Robinsons revelations? Come on, he was designing for SOE, what did he know about programming? He was just qouting some of his freinds, and taking them much to seriously.

[Dims]

Seriously, i'm on the verge of just being like, F*** U SONY! This PS3 info draught is making me think there's something up like they've had to scrap some of the technical who-haa they were boasting so much about and don't know how to tell the public. But then again why would they not show games? Or say the price point their aiming for? I think SONY is taking too much time and my hype for PS3 is basically dead. So Ken Kutaragi, you can either give us some sorta inkling of a teaser or you can kiss all our asses goodbye.

[masonite]

i wonder if the plan was always to not release much up until now, or if the plan changed following the less than impressive 360 launch, with it's shortages and technical problems, along with not-so-great sales in japan, alogn with the relative success of the ps2 in the same period...everyone has great expectations for the ps3, even if we get to april and theres no info, kutaragi can still jump out of the bushes and say "heres the ps3! buy it now!" and it'll get snapped up.

[Sephiroth_VII]

Seriously, i'm on teh verge of just being like, F*** U SONY! This PS3 info draught is making me think there's something up like they've had to scrap some of the technical woo-haa they were boasting so much about and don't know how to tell teh public. But then again why would they not show games? Or say the price point their aiming for? I think SONY is taking too much time and my hype for PS3 is basically dead. So Ken Kutaragi, you can either give us some sorta inkling of a teaser or you can kiss all our asses goodbye.
The hype is dead? No my friend, the hype is growing by the second. Haven't you noticed that every little possible tidbit of news is being stripped to the bone? We don't even care wether the news are directly related to PS3 anymore, we just take all the smal talk and rumors. Then, we analyse it, until we've considered every little implication it can have on PS3.

That, my friend, is hype.

@Masonite: I think there was a couple of article's back in the day, qouting sony execs for saying that if the 360 launch went great, they[sony] would release a lot of news. If not, they'd stay quiet. Surprisingly, this is what happened...

[cliffbo]

The hype is dead? No my friend, the hype is growing by the second. Haven't you noticed that every little possible tidbit of news is being stripped to the bone? We don't even care wether the news are directly related to PS3 anymore, we just take all the Small talk and rumours. Then, we analyse it, until we've considered every little implication it can have on PS3.

That, my friend, is hype.

ye, if we carry on like this we'll know more about the PS3 when it comes out than Ken. hell we'll be able to build one! anyone got a soldering iron?

[Sephiroth_VII]

@Venomv: Yeah, sony is incredible... Incredibly frustrating!

@Cliffbo: Lol, yeah. When the PS3 is finally released in 2027, all of us will have performance improving implants in our brains(xbox 2520?), thus making us able to build the PS3 by hand!!

[liver_kick]

Seriously, i'm on the verge of just being like, F*** U SONY! This PS3 info draught is making me think there's something up like they've had to scrap some of the technical who-haa they were boasting so much about and don't know how to tell the public. But then again why would they not show games? Or say the price point their aiming for? I think SONY is taking too much time and my hype for PS3 is basically dead. So Ken Kutaragi, you can either give us some sorta inkling of a teaser or you can kiss all our asses goodbye.

This is about Kutaragi's keynote at the International Solid State Circuits Conference. Microchips, not games. Being dissappointed about a lack of PS3 news at this event is like being bummed out that Barry Bonds isnt batting cleanup at a Cricket game.

So does anyone have a non-fanboy link to what KK actually had to say about Cell and the roadmap?

[Sephiroth_VII]

He was talking about the future of real-time computer entertainment though. We did expect something.

[masonite]

@Masonite: I think there was a couple of article's back in the day, qouting sony execs for saying that if the 360 launch went great, they[sony] would release a lot of news. If not, they'd stay quiet. Surprisingly, this is what happened...


well in that case, i don't see what everyone is getting suicidal about. i know that confirmation from sony that everything is going well would be a nice thing, but we've already got that - sony has come out repeatedly and said they're on schedule for a spring launch. sony's marketing division isn't a bunch of noobs, they'll release info when it has the biggest impact, and when they're certain the info they're giving can be achieved.

[liver_kick]

He was talking about the future of real-time computer entertainment though. We did expect something.

Yes, and if you've ever heard a KK keynote before at one of these things its usually very broad and abstract. If you were expecting news in the form of RSX specs or (ugh) actual games you werent really understanding the thrust of this particular conference.

[Sephiroth_VII]

I wasn't expect ing anything big. Just as I said, I was merely hoping for a small tidbit of info...

[MooYada]

Hmm.. there are only 2 possible situations Sony is in right now ..either Sony is preparing to shock and awe customers later this month.. or... Sony has been b!tch slapping itself these 5 years over the failed attempts to fufil the playstations 3's promises.

I really hope its going to live up to its promises.

[Sephiroth_VII]

I'm going for choice no. 1.

[cliffbo]

this guy also wrote this though:

"Ars Technica has some new info regarding the PS3 and PSP Connectivity, and explores claims that the console will be a Digital Video Recorder." From the article: "An 'accessory' for the PSP is going to be a device that can connect to the PS3 for interactive gaming, video sharing, and probably music synchronization. Think about it: you're Sony, and you have the PSP. The device is in the same price league as the iPod (although storage is more expensive), and the screen is better. You're also a content owner with fingers in movies, music, and television. Sony's efforts to-date with UMD offerings are only the opening salvos for the company. How do you go after iPod-like success? Like the iPod that is tethered to a computer, the PSP will be tethered to a PS3." Take with the usual recommended amount of salt.

[VG Aficionado]

An 'accessory' for the PSP is going to be a device that can connect to the PS3 for interactive gaming, video sharing, and probably music synchronizationWhat accessory would PSP need to do that with PS3 other than a USB cable? Not to mention both can use WiFi for that purpose too.

Unless that's poor wording.

[cliffbo]

by ending:

Take with the usual recommended amount of salt.

shows a cynicism so lets wait. perhaps he heard what he wanted and not what was said

[version]

sony make some realtime demo, ready 5-6 weeks following, and heavenly sword is very nice :)

[Sephiroth_VII]

That's from the march PSM. Discuss in the appropriate thread.
Going to bed, night everyone.

[overclocked]

sony make some realtime demo, ready 5-6 weeks following, and heavenly sword is very nice :)

The oracle has spoken. :worthy:

:drunks:

[xbdestroya]

Ok, yes - some people need to come to terms with what they should have been expecting from the start.

PS3 information this was *not* about - I was hoping for some interesting Cell info myself, but looks like I'm going to have to wait until a speech transcript comes out or some such. But it just does not make sense to have this be the launch pad for PS3 information. Firstly it would have been insulting to the audience (who isn't there for that crap), and it would have been covered by the news outlets that were there, i.e. no gaming news.

And as for that EGN article... what the hell? Thanks for posting it by the way VG because at least it gives us a summary, but that guy is way out of line. Serves him right he feels his day was wasted for going expecting PS3 info. And I guess he expected Stringer to reveal PS3 at CES as well, so I think he could use some time on the forums to regain his bearings, because they are clearly off.

[xbdestroya]

sony wait for the 65 nm, 4ghz cell , and games

I've been thinking about Sony and 65nm, but it just wouldn't make sense. Especially if they are looking to actually launch in the Spring in any territory, the stockpiling of chips (at 90nm) must have already begun.

But Version as always I like reading your input, and I hope your contacts end up being right as well. :)

[tazz3]

i hope sony shocks and awes.

[overclocked]

But Version as always I like reading your input, and I hope your contacts end up being right as well. :)

Our very own Yoda! :thumbl:

[F089/H]

Damn It happened already?

[Crossbar]

Link: edn.com
Great link VG. Well, not really surprising was it? Shame though that he did not go into the future cost reduction plans for the cell and the RSX.
I guess one of the slides he showed was this: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/info...00007vr3i.html
Sorry, that I repeat myself I've posted that link a few times, but i think it's very interesting. They removed e-dram because it was to expensive, probably because the edram process is not the best if you want to include large parts of logic. Still they chose to use edram in the PSP I believe, but they may go the same route there when they merge the chips, if they haven't done it yet. :shrug:

Ken has also already stated that edram is no good for the RSX, so we can really forget any dreams about a fat edram buffer connected to the RSX somehow, but maybe a dram buffer???? :heybaby:

Considering this I wonder how much MS will be able to cost-reduce their GPU? They have a massive wide data path when accessing the edram for the internal AA etc. logic, it would hardly be viable to break out the dram separetly. I also think they clock the Xenos fairly low to be an ATI part considering their desktop GPUs, one reason for that maybe that edram is not that speedy and they are considering merging the dies sometime. But doing that would result in the type of die that Sony is shying away from.

Maybe Sony is one step ahead of MS in the cost reduction area?

sony wait for the 65 nm, 4ghz cell , and games
That will not happen, Ken has been very clear about this.
I intend to stick to 90nm technology. I know some people who suggested going into mass production using such outrageous technologies as 65nm or 45nm, but you can't make something only by dreaming. In my management role, I'm determined to start mass production with the 90nm. Unlike in the past, it has become extremely difficult to establish a single process technology. What used to take six months after the delivery of manufacturing equipment now takes two or even three years. In other words, once technology uses fine scale processing, you now have to face ten or twenty new problems that bubble up along the way, where in the past, one action was enough. It takes strong conviction and confidence to move on. That is why a stable process technology is so important for the mass production of Cell. Whether we like it or not, we cannot slow down the adoption of fine scale processes in the future, and that is a fact. In this sense, the significance of "PSP" is enormous. Through mass production of PSP chips, Sony succeeded in stabilizing 90nm manufacturing technology. And with that, we were fully prepared-including the injection of new material - to take on new challenges for Cell.
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20050426/104211/

I think he remembers the PS2 problems (250nm -> 180 nm) to well to pull a stunt like that.
I believe MS is very busy at the moment to move the Xenon to 65 nm, it obviously uses far to much power, when people starts using the 360 to dry their hair. The CPU must be well above 80 watts, the GPU probably draws less than the CPU. The power unit of the 360 looks larger than the 250 watt power unit of my Shuttle computer, may not be a fair comparison, but anyway...

ye, if we carry on like this we'll know more about the PS3 when it comes out than Ken. hell we'll be able to build one! anyone got a soldering iron?
Not to say to how much we could improve it by strapping on some more cells, some ray-tracing and a few Gigs of memory. Hell Sony would be out of business in no time....

[Crossbar]

Umm, hasn't there been pictures of the Die avaliable since last year???
Yes, the die pictures were published at the previous ISSCC conference I believe, at least they appeared at the net at about that time. What does this mean? Doesn't he want to show the latest revision of the die for some reason or what?

Have they done some secret changes that are clearly visible on the die picture. But why didn't he just use some of the old pictures if that was the case? It just does not make sense.

[Crossbar]

And here's some more coverage of Kens speech.

Obviously he said a little bit more:

Sony exec touts Cell processor for real-time tasks

SAN FRANCISCO — Real-time computing will bring a paradigm shift for both the PC and semiconductor industries, according to Ken Kutaragi, plenary speaker at the International Solid State Circuits Conference here Monday (Feb. 6).
"In the pursuit of reality through pixel-based technology, graphics on computer entertainment systems have reached the same level of quality as that of the latest movies," said Kutaragi, president and CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment (Tokyo). Kutaragi touted the Cell processor as the means for generating high-quality natural motion for moving objects, just as "pixilation" was used to improve computer graphics.

Natural motion requires vast amounts of physics simulation. Without it, overall graphics would differ little from existing PC entertainment systems. The multicore Cell processor—developed by Sony, IBM and Toshiba—has achieved single precision floating-point calculation performance equivalent to a 200-plus-Gflop supercomputer.

Kutaragi predicted the Cell processor connected to a broadband network could eventually dominate the market. "If you follow the course of computer history, you see how the quest for constant semiconductor scaling and the equal quest for ever higher performance have led to where in 2006 a single chip such as the Cell is one-sixth the size of the original two chips brought out in 1998," said Kutaragi.

"Improving system response changes the relationship between computers and humans," said Kutaragi, citing the example of real-time computing in Formula 1 racing cars packed with sensors and processors that are monitored by a supercomputer miles from the racetrack.

Real-time network computing would require the upgrading of network bottlenecks like servers and switches. Instead Kutaragi proposed forming a Cell-based supercomputer-like server as an application server accessed by many client systems. By incorporating Cell processors, real-time responsiveness could be secured by exchanging only a small number of objects.

Kutaragi noted that the "location-free" concept enables users to access their home terminal via the Internet. "By expanding this concept, it will also become possible to access computer entertainment systems in the home, from mobile clients, in real-time," he said. Thus, mobile clients become a remote display and interface for PC entertainment systems.

"Computer entertainment systems and applications are now leading this trend," said Kutaragi.


http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=I3GYZIVS4PNJ2QSNDBESK HA?articleID=179100739

Shit!!! is this really true? "...a single chip such as the Cell is one-sixth the size of the original two chips brought out in 1998," said Kutaragi. " I would like to see some hard numbers on this, considering the cell is 220 mm2 something.
EDIT: It just struck me, maybe after all they already have 65 nm production working, that would generate a much smaller die which fits "one-sixth" figure better, AND it maybe the reason he did not want to show the cells die picture. Would that make sense?

He seems to be very serious about the location free feature.

[xbdestroya]

I agree with the 90nm take - indeed Kutaragi has already mentioned his intention to use 90nm. The only reason they would use 65nm is if things have otherwise been significantly delayed that it made sense just to go to 65nm anyway; but I don't have reason to believe things have been delayed to such an extent.

Anyway Sony and Toshiba are considered masters of on-die eDRAM, so it's unfortunate they will not be able to play to that strength with PS3. No doubt Sony is set for the more efficient cost reductions - at least to 65nm - as their primary fab spaces for Cell and RSX production are already revolving around launches on that node. MS will go to 65nm as soon as it makes sense to, but they'll have to wait for TSMC, IBM, et al to ramp up. I wonder what issues they will face in eventually getting the eDRAM and C51 chip on the same die during the life of the chip, since TSMC is not the eDRAM master that NEC is - yet NEC would be too expensive a fab to comission for the entire die for Microsoft's purposes. Also at least for 65nm, I see TSMC being there well before NEC, so in that sense the seperate die production may be best in terms of cost savings, as it will allow the C51 to be produced at 80 or 65nm while the eDRAM remains at 90nm.

Whether they will ever contract a single fab to create a single chip solution a la EE+GS@90nm, who knows. IBM, Chartered, TSMC, NEC... not sure what their strengths will be 3 years out.

On the other side of things, Sony fabbing all their own chips is good to go on process shrinks, but with the NUMA architecture, I'm not clear on whether a move to a single die would be possible this gen as it was with the PS2. Maybe someone else has some insights or thoughts on that however.


I believe MS is very busy at the moment to move the Xenon to 65 nm, it obviously uses far to much power, when people starts using the 360 to dry their hair. The CPU must be well above 80 watts, the GPU probably draws less than the CPU. The power unit of the 360 looks larger than the 250 watt power unit of my Shuttle computer, may not be a fair comparison, but anyway...


Xenon won't get to 65nm until IBM and/or Chartered is ready for mass 65nm production, and it's hard to know when that will be. Not to mention, with AMD and Sony both having taken part in the co-development of 65nm at IBM - and Sony in fact having invested substantial sums into East Fishkill fab space - I have to wonder where on the priority list Microsoft is for 65nm dibs, especially with Power6 coming.

The Xenos uses ~40-45 watts is my understanding by the way, and yeah XeCPU above 80 watts.

Yes, the die pictures were published at the previous ISSCC conference I believe, at least they appeared at the net at about that time. What does this mean? Doesn't he want to show the latest revision of the die for some reason or what?

Have they done some secret changes that are clearly visible on the die picture. But why didn't he just use some of the old pictures if that was the case? It just does not make sense.

Well, they are on at least the DD3.1 revision of Cell right now - from the DD2 revision we are all familiar with - so maybe indeed some changes have been made that a die shot would reveal, that they would prefer to keep on the down-low for now.

[xbdestroya]

And here's some more coverage of Kens speech.

Obviously he said a little bit more:



http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=I3GYZIVS4PNJ2QSNDBESK HA?articleID=179100739

Shit!!! is this really true? "...a single chip such as the Cell is one-sixth the size of the original two chips brought out in 1998," said Kutaragi. " I would like to see some hard numbers on this, considering the cell is 220 mm2 something.

He seems to be very serious about the location free feature.

Thanks for posting this Crossbar. :)

I knew EETimes would get on this - took them a while though!

Anyway sounds good to me - he clearly references that Cell-based 'super network' Sony took that patent out on (it's around here somewhere). Also he by extension pushes the Cell server idea explored by that IBM team in their 'cell server for physics in game' thing... of course with other applications as well being implied.

Here's where the EE and GS were in '99 at PS2's launch. Who knows what size they were when first showcased in 1998 - but I guess roughly double for each isn't inconceivable.

http://i.cmpnet.com/eet/news/04/january/SONY1306_PG_6.gif

[Crossbar]

Thanks for posting this Crossbar. :)

I knew EETimes would get on this - took them a while though!

Anyway sounds good to me - he clearly references that Cell-based 'super network' Sony took that patent out on (it's around here somewhere). Also he by extension pushes the Cell server idea explored by that IBM team in their 'cell server for physics in game' thing... of course with other applications as well being implied.

Here's where the EE and GS were in '99 at PS2's launch. Who knows what size they were when first showcased in 1998 - but I guess roughly double for each isn't inconceivable.

http://i.cmpnet.com/eet/news/04/january/SONY1306_PG_6.gif
Thanks for that picture,
Yes, you may be right, they may have had some even larger prototypes back in 98, the other possibility is that he actually has a working 65 nm cell die and that was the reason he did not want to show the die picture. It would not be totally impossible, though they may not have it ready for mass-production yet.

EDIT:This fab should be quite ready by now.
(05/21/2004 10:00 AM EDT)
TOKYO — Sony Corp.'s Nagasaki 300-mm fab has begun test production of Cell processors, Ken Kutaragi, Sony's executive deputy president and COO, acknowledged this week.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=3KC2ZFUTMPZKEQSNDBCSK HSCJUMEKJVN?articleID=20900206&_requestid=69395

[Sephiroth_VII]

Good news. Seems that all the PS3 parts, have finally gone into mass-produktion.

[Leedogg]

Good news. Seems that all the PS3 parts, have finally gone into mass-produktion.
All except for the Blu-Ray drive. You can quote me on this, If there is a major shortage it will be because of the drive. And major shortage, I mean below 1 million per region.

[xbdestroya]

EDIT:This fab should be quite ready by now.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=3KC2ZFUTMPZKEQSNDBCSK HSCJUMEKJVN?articleID=20900206&_requestid=69395

Good call Crossbar - interesting times.

I wonder if they've gone to 90nm as an interim step? That would seem like a waste though, and if they've stayed on track for 65nm perhaps we'll see some 65nm components early on afterall. It has been approaching a year since Kutaragi made his assertion that 90nm would be the node - things can change.

Best to be conservative with any of our estimates though, and stick with 90nm officially.

EDIT: That pilot production in 2004 - even though in Nagasaki 2 on 300mm - had to have been on 90nm... right?

[Crossbar]

EDIT: That pilot production in 2004 - even though in Nagasaki 2 on 300mm - had to have been on 90nm... right?
That sounds very likely, unless that test production wasn't complete CPUs. Maybe we should not take everything eetimes write as the full truth?

[xbdestroya]

That sounds very likely, unless that test production wasn't complete CPUs. Maybe we should not take everything eetimes write as the full truth?

Ok I think the article just wasn't as thorough as it could've been in explaining. This quote here though from it helps shed some light:

Sony has also invested ¥36 billion (about $321 million) on IBM's 300-mm silicon-on-insulator line at East Fishkill fab. Once the 65-nm SOI process is established there, Sony intends to duplicate the process at the Nagasaki 300-mm fab.

SCEI's Nagasaki Fabs 1 and 2 served as the production base for core chips for PlayStation 2. But with production processes scaling down, the lines now have surplus capacity and are fabricating other devices such as CMOS sensors.

I think that Cell pilot production was probably on the 90nm line at Nagasaki 2 - and the 65nm line is still in the process on the first floor. It seems that Sony is waiting until the East Fishkill completion to finalize it back at home. I don't know... might be time for a PSINext project. Maybe we can compile a full audit of Sony's fab capacity, wafer size and node used per fab line, and intended purposes.

EDIT: Started a 'fab audit' thread for a side project

[xbdestroya]

'One' provides us with a TechOn Japanese translated snippet, as well as some pictures:

According to Kutaragi, ISSCC is the conference he's visited most often since 1980s, though lately he couldn't attend it as he'd been too busy. Apparently it's something to muse upon for him to do the keynote speech. Instead of a tutorial-like speech often seen at ISSCC, this time he tried to focus on proposing future vision. He suggested presenting his future vision at ISSCC may lead to collaboration with other disciplines such as cybernetics/cyborg in medical science.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20060207/113091/kutaragi_after.jpg

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20060207/113091/kutaragi_Computing.jpg

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20060207/113091/kutaragi_keyword.jpg

[overclocked]

Shit!!! is this really true? "...a single chip such as the Cell is one-sixth the size of the original two chips brought out in 1998," said Kutaragi. " I would like to see some hard numbers on this, considering the cell is 220 mm2 something.




Interesting that the first GS and EE was at 240mm square for EE and 280 for the GS. The Cell at 234mm square and RSX maybe around 300/350mm(?).

PS
Interesting from the fact that it would be fun to know witch EE/GS i have in my own PS2..
bought in jan 01(and still going strong:banana: ) would make it hmmm, some hybrid of 180nm and 250nm.. :shrug:

[Crossbar]

On the other side of things, Sony fabbing all their own chips is good to go on process shrinks, but with the NUMA architecture, I'm not clear on whether a move to a single die would be possible this gen as it was with the PS2. Maybe someone else has some insights or thoughts on that however.
The NUMA architecture which means a lot of separate bandwidth for the Cell and RSX, but also means a lot of extra pins and memory chips, does not look very cost effective and seems hard to cost reduce.

However, after giving it a second thought and looking through some old IDF slides I believe Mr Kutaragi is looking one step further.

Maybe he is not considering a cost-reduction by merging the Cell and the RSX dies in the same fashion as he did with the PS2->PStwo conversion, maybe he plans to cost reduce by moving the memory onto the Cell resp. the RSX by using wafer stacking or die stacking. That would reduce a hell of a lot of pins and components and make the PCB even cleaner than the PCB of PStwo.

4885With wafer stacking, instead of having hundreds or thousands of pins between your CPU and main memory, you have 1 - 10 million connections between your CPU and memory, directly increasing memory bandwidth. What's interesting is that this method of stacking could also mean the end of external memory.4884Die stacking is another possibility, where you could stack multiple different sized die on top of the CPU core logic, that die could also be DRAM as well as Flash memory or anything else really. Intel showed off an 8 layer configuration using die stacking, which according to Intel is a very realistic option.http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2367&p=31) Current Intel research estimates that about 256MB of memory can be stacked on top of a CPU (die stacking). A huge latency reduction is the result, but if you need more memory you have to go off die of course.

2) Different thermal expansion between the layers might of course ruin the chip. Intel is looking into this but Justin believes that it is not going to stop the stacked die show.

3) Right now stacked die is obviously in its infancy, they still have to move to the next step: one memory chip on top the other.

We're quite excited about the possibility of stacked DRAM although it will definitely be a long time before we see it productized.
http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2368

Funny the 256 MB figure fits the bill perfectly though the article does not specify any time frame for the implementation.

The stacked wafer is a technology Sony already used for EDRAM cost reduction, looking a few years down the road any of these technologies may make an even more efficient cost reduction than what was achieved on the PStwo. Who knows? Ken Kutaragi is no stranger to new technology.:shrug:

[Viano]

alota pix

http://spaces.msn.com/rathesungod/

[frosty]

So you are saying Cell would have it's memory stacked on it, and RSX will also have the same, eliminating external memory for both? Perhaps this will also be used in future gaming consoles, where the CPU and GPU have their memory stacked on them and there could also be an external pool of higher latency memory if they needed it.

(I may be way off, I know very little of the subject)

[Crossbar]

So you are saying Cell would have it's memory stacked on it, and RSX will also have the same, eliminating external memory for both? Perhaps this will also be used in future gaming consoles, where the CPU and GPU have their memory stacked on them and there could also be an external pool of higher latency memory if they needed it.

(I may be way off, I know very little of the subject)
Sometimes in the future this will possible in a larger scale and could be used as a mean for cost reduction for a PSThree.

If a new console was built from the ground up with this technology it could have a massive bandwidth to memory. But as you say this memory may not be that large so you may need some high latency external memory, but hey 256 MB isn't bad (as Intel suggest).

[frosty]

well, lets also consider that by the time PS4 makes it's debut, they may have found a way to cram 512 or even more onto a chip. Plus, the GPU would have it's own stack, so the external memory may not be needed as badly. Here's my prediction: PS4 with (i'll err on the safe side) 256 MB stacked memory for CPU and GPU, plus 20-40 GB internal Solid state HDD (that could double as external RAM), and an attachable terabyte HDD.

[Sklaar]

Components
Programmable Logic and Asic
ISSCC offers divergent views of SoC future
by Ron Wilson at EDN
Friday 10 February 2006
Keynote addresses and papers at the 2006 International Solid State Circuits Conference in San Francisco this week showed that SoC (system-on-chip) integration is far from the simple march to a single chip that has often been portrayed.

Rather, the conference unveiled a complex dance, choreographed by market need and engineering necessity,...

Article Continues Below
... in which features and functions come and go - now integrated, now separate; now in dedicated hardware, now in software; but always on the move.

After a detailed introduction to the roadmap for trans-90nm processes from IBM fellow T.C. Chen, back-to-back invited papers by Hermann Eul, a member of Infineon's management board, and Ken Kutaragi, Sony Computer Entertainment president and CEO, illustrated the course of SoC integration from two divergent points of view: wireless radio and game devices, respectively.

Using Infineon's "single-chip" GSM/GPRS cell phone - an SoC that provides most of the active devices in a handset except for the power amplifier and antenna switch - Eul argued that integration of the digital baseband and application processors was not the end of the road for 90-nm technology.

By careful rethinking of how functions should be divided up between the digital and analogue domains, by aggressive use of digital circuits to correct for the shortcomings of 130nm analogue circuits, and by what Eul later referred to as "some special features in the CMOS process to address the noise figure," Infineon was able to move the low-noise amplifier, local oscillator, down-converter, data converters, and audio amplifiers onto the same die with the baseband and application-processor blocks.

Debate raged for a long time within Infineon over whether to attempt integration of the RF devices into the low-cost handset SOC, Eul noted. "In the end, we just did it, and it works," he said. "There is a danger in debating too long. At the beginning of a project the risks are often obvious, but the benefits not so much so.

"For instance, we knew that integration would increase die size, and moving some functions to digital might increase power. In the end, integration substantially reduced external parts count - a big cost factor in this segment. And the power is competitive. Maybe it is higher for some functions, but at the end of the day only the total system power counts."

The handset chip makes use of numerous dedicated processing blocks. But the trend is in another direction, Eul suggested. The dual demands of uncertain standards, which require heavy reliance on software to implement functions, and low power, which dictates use of parallelism to reduce clock frequencies and operating voltages, suggest a move from monolithic CPUs and DSPs surrounded by accelerators to an array of similar processors.

"I believe that the move to multicore approaches is a trend, not a passing thing," Eul said. "The software for multiprocessing - at least in applications with high data parallelism - has improved enormously. Today, once the architecture understands what needs to be done, it is possible to find a solution.

"But that doesn't imply the end of special-purpose accelerators," Eul added. "Today we use accelerators for specific, well-defined functions like encryption or error correction in conjunction with processor clusters. I think a completely 'clean' cluster of processors without specialised hardware would not survive in the market."

Even though analogue integration is becoming increasingly difficult, the future includes more of it, according to Eul. The cluster of LDOs, amplifiers, boost regulators, and other circuits that today are crammed into a single analog chip make up a next target for integration. "One of our goals is to make the circuitry for power management and many of these other analog functions implementable in mainstream CMOS," Eul said. It appears achievable for most things - maybe not for the boost regulators."

In contrast, Sony's Kutaragi described the path his corporation has taken from the earliest PlayStation chips to the much-described Cell processor in the PlayStation 3. Kutaragi outlined the decision to rely on embedded DRAM on the graphics engine to meet bandwidth requirements, and how the company stayed with that decision through several levels of integration, ending in the single-chip Risc processor and graphics engine combination in the 2004 handheld version of the PlayStation.
But with the PlayStation 3, Kutaragi described a radical departure - from a Risc CPU surrounded by specialised hardware engines and embedded DRAM to the nearly symmetric cluster of floating-point vector processors in the Cell chip. The ability to parallelise graphics tasks had made it possible to reduce reliance on specialised engines.
But here Kutaragi sounded the same reservation as Eul, albeit more quietly. Although, according to some sources, the PlayStation was originally conceived as doing its own graphics rendering in a version of the Cell processor, the architects eventually turned to a specialised rendering/shading chip. And there would be other cases in which the move to multicore solutions and software would be at least delayed.

"We believe that hardware-level security is fundamental," Kutaragi said. "Software solutions may be not fast or robust enough to protect the system and its content when it is connected to the global network environment."

Even with the trend toward processor clusters, hardware accelerators will play a role. And the trend toward digitisation notwithstanding, the analogue content of SOCs is likely to increase. At least that is the trend as seen from these two markets.

http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2006/02/10/37651/ISSCCoffersdivergentviewsofSoCfuture.htm