The Possibility of a Dual RSX GPU?

[Nerve-Damage]

Well, let’s say the FlexIO (as many sites have stated) has a peak bandwidth of 76.8GB/s. 35GB/s between the Cell & RSX and 5GB/s between the Cell and South Bridge. Leaving roughly 36.8GB/s of data bandwidth; my original belief was that the rest of the bandwidth was to be utilized among the IO devices and South Bridge. But many people have pointed out that, that type of utilization is wasteful and stupid. Which in back of mind I do agree to a certain point, but I couldn’t escape the fact FlexIO will not be used to its full potential. And the fact Ken stated in one of his interviews the FlexIO will provide over 70GB/s of system bandwidth. Man I wish I can find that damn article (smoking gun). Anyhow as some hardware sites have stated (be it directly or indirectly) the PS3 will carry the full FlexIO spec.

Just recently (last night actually) got some info; and I’m not going into all the details of it. But the person told me I was right about the FlexIO bandwidth rate, but wrong about the implementation of it. He said; “Think Daisy Chain”

Anyhow, it took me around 10 something this morning to figure it out (sort of). I had too make sure where I seen that word before. If you haven’t guessed it by now…the words are on the supposed RSX pic’s floating around the net.

If we (or I) was to take Daisy Chain at what it means; meaning the linking or connecting of more than one item or thing. That lead me to believe the extra bandwidth of 36.8 can support another RSX GPU, hence the strangers “Think Daisy Chain” message.

What does this all mean? Probably nothing!! But for a stranger to IM-me (and having my IM handle at that) is quite strange, and giving me a message like that. Honestly, I was going to write this off as bullsh** or someone pulling my leg. Anyhow, I thought I’ll let you guy’s weigh in on the matter.

[jaxmkii]

maybe this is the big suprise? the big nail in the coffin of 360? the way that they are going to ensure that the PS3 will be futureproof? buy SLI ing a pair of the worlds most powerfull GPUs? that would ensure a kill!!!

[CrumCon]

nah , dual RSX is not possible anymore, infact any significant technical specs improvement are not possible anymore (most of), since the final SDK has been shipped. Not to mention many devs has build their games using 1 RSX in mind for months now.

[raVen]

unless the devs knew something we didnt

[xbdestroya]

nah , dual RSX is not possible anymore, infact any significant technical specs improvement are not possible anymore (most of), since the final SDK has been shipped. Not to mention many devs has build their games using 1 RSX in mind for months now.

Wait a minute, have the final dev kits been shipped? I'm curious on this just on it's own grounds. As far as I know, we haven't gotten any sort of confirmation as to their shipment (or even completion) yet.

[Nerve-Damage]

nah , dual RSX is not possible anymore, infact any significant technical specs improvement are not possible anymore (most of), since the final SDK has been shipped. Not to mention many devs has build their games using 1 RSX in mind for months now.


When did this happened, let alone the final ones?

I know the "PS3 Reference Kits" are do out this month, but the finalized Kits aren’t do until mid March of 2006.There’s really no big difference between the Reference Kit and Finalized Kits, except the Finalized Kits are usually fine tuned to spec.

[Handycrap101]

Ugh... I must know what all of this means (despite my lack of technical knowledge). Can someone explain what some of these things are and what they mean/do??

P.S. Nerve, my trophy PWNS J00!!!

[CrumCon]

When did this happened, let alone the final ones?

I know the "PS3 Reference Kits" are do out this month, but the finalized Kits aren’t do until mid March of 2006.There’s really no big difference between the Reference Kit and Finalized Kits, except the Finalized Kits are usually fine tuned to spec.

so if the Reference and the final SDK wont be much difference, i suppose we cant expect any technical improvements anymore. If you already knew this, isnt this topic pointless?

am i right?!

and yes The reference kit has been shipped

[Effulgence]

If devs cant even release info on their games for ps3, why would they be able to release info on whats in the reference kit?

[xbdestroya]

so if the Reference and the final SDK wont be much difference, i suppose we cant expect any technical improvements anymore. If you already knew this, isnt this topic pointless?

am i right?!

and yes The reference kit has been shipped

CrumCon can you provide a link or something indicating that the dev kits including the RSX have shipped? And no that slide saying when they were supposed to ship won't count. :)

[Nerve-Damage]

Ugh... I must know what all of this means (despite my lack of technical knowledge). Can someone explain what some of these things are and what they mean/do??

The Rambus FlexIO is the main bus system or communication channels that bridge certain chips through the PS3. As far as we know the FlexIO connects the Cell to the RSX, and the Cell to the South Bridge. The main FlexIO interface is integrated into the Cell along with a XDR controller.

P.S. Nerve, my trophy PWNS J00!!!

Nice... :spit:

[version]

Comment by Barry Minor — December 8, 2005 @ 5:27 pm

"As for Cell rasterization, we to are interested in knowing where Cell falls relative to a specialized processor. More on this later…. "

[Nerve-Damage]

so if the Reference and the final SDK wont be much difference, i suppose we cant expect any technical improvements anymore. If you already knew this, isnt this topic pointless?

am i right?!

and yes The reference kit has been shipped

Fine tuned could represent a lot of things; such as all of suddenly yields improving with the Cell processors, thus allowing the 8th SPE to be included in the final PS3 Dev Kits and PS3 system. Or the RSX included within the Reference Kits are clocked at 550MHz, but yields have improved by mid February to include a 600MHz clocked versions with the PS3 Kits/system. Those aren’t heavy changes to the hardware per-se, just improved performance issues. Those examples shouldn’t through a developer’s current project off.

Will it happen?

Probably not!!

Can it happen?

Probably Yes!!

[CrumCon]

Fine tuned could represent a lot of things; such as all of suddenly yields improving with the Cell processors, thus allowing the 8th SPE to be included in the final PS3 Dev Kits and PS3 system. Or the RSX included within the Reference Kits are clocked at 550MHz, but yields have improved by mid February to include a 600MHz clocked core with. Those aren’t heavy changes to the hardware per-se, just improved performance issues. Those examples shouldn’t through a developer’s current project off.

Will it happen?

Probably not!!

Can it happen?

Probably Yes!!

those things are possible, BUT DUAL RSX??? lol

that's really way off from Reference kit, which is supposed to be pre-final kit.

[Nerve-Damage]

those things are possible, BUT DUAL RSX??? lol

that's really way off from Reference kit, which is supposed to be pre-final kit.

See CrumCon that’s why xbdestroya was asking you to provide an actual December 2005 link on the PS3 Reference Kit announcement; that should contain some mention or info on the actual specs of the unit (not E3 pictures). Remember the E3 “PS3 Reference Kit” pics didn’t give specific details other than memory configuration size, Cell clock speed, and the inclusion of the RSX technology; which in itself could mean anything without solid facts.

I’m not saying the PS3 will come with Dual RSX GPU or denying it will not. It’s the ifs that must be cleared up with facts not conjectures.

[CrumCon]

well then this topic is pointless, if we're discussing something THAT WONT happen.

[xbdestroya]

I don't even care about the specs, I just want confirmation as to if and when it ships/has shipped. http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/winksmile.gif

[Nerve-Damage]

well then this topic is pointless, if we're discussing something THAT WONT happen.


It maybe pointless to you and a few others, but there are still some who might want to chime in with there opinion on the subject matter. Be it wishful thinking……..

[Gegenki]

That would be an amazing surprise.
Think about this. What is there was a single line a dev could put into their console which would activate a script on the dev kit which would effectively switch off one of the RSX chips. That means that the first round of games would be simple compared to what was to come, but there would be no hassle in it. It's like if you have a SLI graphics set up - does a game need to be optimised to use both cards for it to work?
+ That would give the PS3 round about 3.8 Terraflops of power theortically - take 15% accounting for processor's not adding up 100%
Thats a hell load.
That could well be the suprise. It all depends on the price of the components really.

[axia777]

Dual RSX would be insane, and insanely expensive. I think it would be cost prohibative to say the least to put two RSX in one PS3. It would be nice, but crazy. I think one is enough personally.

[Nameless]

Personally I still think we may see a RSX/Cell hybrid considering the GPU is built exclusively for the PS3. Perhaps Sony and Nvidia are working together very closely to build a GPU based on both architectures, now that would be some exciting news. I think this theory holds some weight considering the fact the Cell is capable of rendering graphics on it's own. I doubt Nvidia will take an off the shelf approach with RSX if that was the case really what's the point the GPU will be out of date in about 6 months at best.

I know we all are very excited to see final specs on the RSX since it will play a huge role in software visuals. That's my 2 cents on this topic. Peace

[Gegenki]

Personally I still think we may see a RSX/Cell hybrid considering the GPU is built exclusively for the PS3. Perhaps Sony and Nvidia are working together very closely to build a GPU based on both architectures, now that would be some exciting news. I think this theory holds some weight considering the fact the Cell is capable of rendering graphics on it's own. I doubt Nvidia will take an off the shelf approach with RSX if that was the case really what's the point the GPU will be out of date in about 6 months at best.

I know we all are very excited to see final specs on the RSX since it will play a huge role in software visuals. That's my 2 cents on this topic. Peace

Technically any processor can render graphics... technically.
Also, Xbox had a modified pentium 3 when it came out - was out of date very quickly and a modified graphics card, not sure what level - but that was out of date fast too, but the xbox managed to stay ahead of the PC because it is a console and not a PC. Unlike PC's consoles don't have to run 43 other programs in the background. When I turn my computer on I have about 150MB of ram left of 512MB. Your xbox 360 will have 472MB of 512MB, because it only has to run dashboard in the background.
Also any graphics card they do put in will be specialised for that console meaning that it will work better than if it were in a PC and every program would be optimised for that single graphics card.
We already know that the RSX isn't your standard Geforce 6/7 so we know that it isn't an off the shelf approach.

[woundingchaney]

The concept of a dual RSX would be great for us consumers, but I can honestly say that I dont think there is anyway in hell of it happening.

[Lekko]

Anyone thought up how maaaybe the RSX is and always was maybe SLI? What if "RSX" is the codename for the dual GPUs. Just like how Cell is. *shrugs* who knows?

[xbdestroya]

I don't think an SLI configuration is *totally* out of the question, but if so then I think we're looking at individual RSX's that are much smaller/weaker than what we're thinking at present. Because two RSX's if we're thinking the 32-pipe 550 MHz chips would be exhoribinantly expensive, very hot, and a big power draw.

Now two 16-pipe chips in a quasi-SLI, I could more understand, to say nothing of the positive effects on yields for the chips. Still though, I'm thinking a single chip solution for the GPU.

Hopefully we'll know in three weeks.

[Garfunkel]

maybe nvidea will make it sli and use it to push it's sli tech and make inroads on the pc market.

i am starting to think it is a reality, and i guess a clue would be that nvidea and sony are very hush on the matter

[Nodieza]

Wow that would be one hell of a huge nail to put in a coffin.... that would be awsome news but it just.... doesn't seem likely.... I don't know, no high hopes here but it would be great if true.

[senas8]

Well Ken.K was quoted that up untill now pc's had an edge on consoles...or something to that effect....Im starting to belive something unique sony is going to present. Also a question...why didnt sony use a second cell instead of the RSX?...seems the cell has a big punch.

[jaxmkii]

Well Ken.K was quoted that up untill now pc's had an edge on consoles...or something to that effect....Im starting to belive something unique sony is going to present. Also a question...why didnt sony use a second cell instead of the RSX?...seems the cell has a big punch. realy good question... why dint they just forgo the cost of R&D and use 2 cells? 1 cell for everything else 1 for "GPU" funtions?:yum: hell they could be on the shelf buy now!

[VG Aficionado]

Because an Nvidia GPU would be easier to develop for than for a Cell GPU?

Because a Cell GPU wouldn't be as efficient as an Nvidia GPU for certain things?

[CARTIER90]

Unlike PC's consoles don't have to run 43 other programs in the background. When I turn my computer on I have about 150MB of ram left of 512MB. Your xbox 360 will have 472MB of 512MB, because it only has to run dashboard in the background.


How true is that !, though with 512 RAM i have 380 MB ish....i dont mean to patronise but have you tried pressing Ctrl Alt Del combo - close down non system related programs, 150 MB is what i have my laptop working with and it has only 256 RAM

[Bliss]

Well, let’s say the FlexIO (as many sites have stated) has a peak bandwidth of 76.8GB/s. 35GB/s between the Cell & RSX and 5GB/s between the Cell and South Bridge. Leaving roughly 36.8GB/s of data bandwidth; my original belief was that the rest of the bandwidth was to be utilized among the IO devices and South Bridge. But many people have pointed out that, that type of utilization is wasteful and stupid. Which in back of mind I do agree to a certain point, but I couldn’t escape the fact FlexIO will not be used to its full potential. And the fact Ken stated in one of his interviews the FlexIO will provide over 70GB/s of system bandwidth. Man I wish I can find that damn article (smoking gun). Anyhow as some hardware sites have stated (be it directly or indirectly) the PS3 will carry the full FlexIO spec.

Just recently (last night actually) got some info; and I’m not going into all the details of it. But the person told me I was right about the FlexIO bandwidth rate, but wrong about the implementation of it. He said; “Think Daisy Chain”

Anyhow, it took me around 10 something this morning to figure it out (sort of). I had too make sure where I seen that word before. If you haven’t guessed it by now…the words are on the supposed RSX pic’s floating around the net.

If we (or I) was to take Daisy Chain at what it means; meaning the linking or connecting of more than one item or thing. That lead me to believe the extra bandwidth of 36.8 can support another RSX GPU, hence the strangers “Think Daisy Chain” message.

What does this all mean? Probably nothing!! But for a stranger to IM-me (and having my IM handle at that) is quite strange, and giving me a message like that. Honestly, I was going to write this off as bullsh** or someone pulling my leg. Anyhow, I thought I’ll let you guy’s weigh in on the matter.

very interesting...but it would be possible a dual GPU architecture in term of cost ?...I think it's possible....

[cliffbo]

just a question the pic awhile back was thought to be an early version of the rsx no? i cannot remember who said it but it thought to have 600m transistors i think but was only one chip would it be possible that it is a multicore chip?.

[Lemnik]

The problem with simply having a second Cell to do the graphics processing is

(1) That it's MUCH slower than a GPU, the general rule is this: The more general purpose a chip (of any shape or form, CPU, GPU, PPU, whatever), the slower it is. The Cell is aimed at being a CPU, and while it's great at doing media, it's great when compared to normal CPU's, not when compared to a GPU.

(2) GPU's generally consume less power and produce less heat because of their lower clock-speeds. The Cell if I remember right is clocked at 3.5Ghz, while the RSX was last guestimated to be around 550Mhz, thats much less heat and power for much more performance. (most of the heat on you graphics board actually comes from the memory, which has to be clocked at insane levels to keep up with the GPU).

As for 2 RSX's in the PS3, I think it's very unlikely. They are simply to expencive to produce. They are more likly to build the system so that the GPU can take over some of the "Graphics related" work that a CPU usually has to be invloved with (ie: transformations for physics and collision detection). I seem to remeber a slide indicating that data could be sent back from the RSX to the Cell for exactly that purpose, which would cut out a huge number of instructions that are normally duplicate functionality in the CPU that the GPU also does.

[Sebastiano]

RSX in a SLI formation ?
If that happened, I bet half of the current Xbox 360 owners would be returning their system and preorder a PS3 LOL
Also it would insure the PS3 life cycle well beyond the 5 year mark.

I doubt it will happen... but you never know what Sony has been brewing beyond close doors :shrug:

[kaphwan]

They aren't using a second cell because whatever they are using is better?

Just a thought, people.

[venomv]

They aren't using a second cell because whatever they are using is better?

Just a thought, people.

That's the obvious answer, and more then likly the right one. There would be no reason to spend money on the RSX, if they could just mod the CELL a bit the get greater or equal or even slightly less proformance they would, no questions asked.

Man, Kaph I can look at your avator now without almost going into shock, I say stick with that.