Linux's presence on the ps3 hard drive, and it's implications for Microsoft Windows

[kaphwan]

I'm not well versed enough in the matter to make a sound judgement, but I'd like to see what others have to say.

[Garfunkel]

Well simply put, By sony putting linux on an included harddrive complicates matters for microsoft because (as we all know) the PS3 will sell like porn, this in turn gets users used to linux and encourages them to use linux on the pc. Then by word of mouth the message spreads that Bill and his evil empire are crap and that linux rules and realy is easy to use, more and more people begin to use linux, more and more developers develope for linux as it will provide a nice source of income, minisoft begins to loose support and market share (and more importantly money), minisoft goes bankrupt and bill gets forced to work as a maid as slave labor in my house and gets beaten if he tries to get rich again, linux wins!

In short Linux good, Dildosoft bad.

[Lekko]

The one thing that I hope is that the PS3 version of linux is easy to use and reliable, with plenty of things to do with it. Otherwise, if you're locked out of everything and it is impossible to use, it will scare more people away than help.

[kaphwan]

I always thought that microsoft went into video games to try and hit Sony on their own turf before Sony did the exact same thing.

[axia777]

Linux on PS3? Can you say Homebrew apps? Oh yah, homebrew on PS3. The possibilities are so huge. That is if the version of Linux they give us is the goods. Lets hope.

[xbdestroya]

Linux on PS3? Can you say Homebrew apps? Oh yah, homebrew on PS3. The possibilities are so huge. That is if the version of Linux they give us is the goods. Lets hope.

The Linux version on PS3 will be the definition of DRM, but Sony's been talkign about licensing officially several PSP homebrew games/apps, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same with the PS3. Obviously though if the console gets cracked it'll be homebrew madness.

[jumbo]

Why doesn't SONY support and encourage homebrew's instead then?
I'm obviously not talking about playin copied games, etc.

But if SONY allowed people to create and run apps on PS3 legally, the sales would triple, x360 would die a painful death.

It's not like they're getting royalties for the hdloaders and magic swap disc now anyways...

Main reason people do illegal stuff with the consoles is because it's "not allowed." It's the rebelious mentality. If legalized, might encourage people to use their technology in more beneficial way.

[xbdestroya]

Why doesn't SONY support and encourage homebrew's instead then?
I'm obviously not talking about playin copied games, etc.

But if SONY allowed people to create and run apps on PS3 legally, the sales would triple, x360 would die a painful death.

It's not like they're getting royalties for the hdloaders and magic swap disc now anyways...

Main reason people do illegal stuff with the consoles is because it's "not allowed." It's the rebelious mentality. If legalized, might encourage people to use their technology in more beneficial way.


It probably will be 'legalized,' but only within a Sony framework. They would have to distribute the app and have it 'signed' for the PS3 to be able to run it. If not, what you have is the risk of virus' spreading, malicious code, and of course the console being cracked and becoming a haven for pirating. All things Sony doesn't want and is quite willing to go to lengths to avoid, despite some users wishes for a homebrew nirvana.

[Crossbar]

I'm not well versed enough in the matter to make a sound judgement, but I'd like to see what others have to say.
Is there any hard facts available about Linux on PS3, versions etc. ?
Please post any link about it.

I think it would really be annoying to MS if peolpe started using Netscape and Star office on their PS3s. That scenario would make them lower the price of the 360 a couple of hundred dollars just not to get Linux in to the common mans home.
Their monopoly may start to shake, remember Kens words: "We will kill them!".

[Sephiroth_VII]

No spicific LINUX version has been specified yet.
It\ll probably be custom made.

[Coded-Dude]

Netscape and Star office
More like Open Office and Mozilla Firefox; Staroffice is no longer free, Sun makes you pay.
Though it will be interesting to see hwo the PS3 "desktop" changes peoples understadning of operating systems and their TRUE functionality. I will be pissed if I can' get root on my own PS3!

[Domination]

I always thought that microsoft went into video games to try and hit Sony on their own turf before Sony did the exact same thing.

I agree with you. I have been saying this for awhile myself.

I guess the worst part about it is, Sony isn't really competing with Microsoft, but at the sametime, they are. But they are doing it from a position in which they know best; their own.

[Coded-Dude]

they are also partners in other venues of business though(don't forget)

[Applefiend]

What do the kids use their PC for? Surfing the web, instant messaging and games. What does PS3 do for them now? The very same. No $1000 PC needed, no $250 copy of Windows Vista required, a brand new 3.2Ghz super computer now costs the price of a hard drive. What'll that be, 100 bucks? Even outputs digital to your monitor.

Sony are doing a pincer movement on Microsoft, attacking XBox head on, and then going for their cash cow, Windows and Office.

This is a huge win for linux. Go Sony.

Microsoft are like a giant lumbering colossus with lots of little guys on horseback shooting arrows at it. Google, Apple, Sony, Sun. Someday one of these company will find a weakspot and some fur to climb onto. :D

[Saibo]

The one thing that I hope is that the PS3 version of linux is easy to use and reliable, with plenty of things to do with it. Otherwise, if you're locked out of everything and it is impossible to use, it will scare more people away than help.

on top of that it must have a GUI, I think the PS2 Linux came with a version of Linux, but did it have a GUI, does anyone know?

Linux and PS3 is going to be great, its going to open doors for cell programming to indy developers and people just interested in porting application to Cell architecture. However, i dont think its going to impact windowXP or even Apple OSX, mainly because it restricted to the PS3. If they want to take on MS , they need to include the Cell architecture in their mainstream Sony VAIO computer brand. than maybe we can see Cell becoming more popular with the general public.

I think one of the misconception with the general public regarding Linux is, that is diffucult to use or is too complex compare to XP or OSX..at least thats the conception i myself have(since i never used Linux before). So STI needs to education the masses on this.

One other major factor is software, a good start would be for STI to get aid from the major DCC developers(Alias,Discreet,Luxology,Softimage,etc) to port their software to Cell. Software was one of the major reasons, why Wintel solution have had a greatier user base than Apple. it also one of the reasons why Sony has a bigger user base than the competition.

[D3adcell]

Well Sony would have to make their own GUI and compiler etc. Unless of course they strike a deal with red hat or something. But if they do make their own version of linux will it then be able to run on home computers or do you think it will be designed specifically for the ps3 and cell.

[Saibo]

Well Sony would have to make their own GUI and compiler etc. Unless of course they strike a deal with red hat or something. But if they do make their own version of linux will it then be able to run on home computers or do you think it will be designed specifically for the ps3 and cell.

I dont know if its me or theres a misconception of what the PS3 OS is. Linux on the PS3 is just a consider a application(or a guest OS) by the PS3 underlying OS(which is seperate). So, say if you pop in a PS2,PS3 game into the Blu-Ray drive, it'll boot that game up, bypassing the Linux OS on your HDD. Probable the same thing happens when you start the PS3, you get the native PS3 OS loaded, than you can select Linux to boot that up or check out the memory card,etc. I believe IBM has a Cell compiler out already.I think they are going to have to design their Linux specificaly(spelling?) for the Cell. Also i think they are going to include patchs to popular Linux distro(Fedora Core 4) so you can install it on the PS3 HDD, the best of both worlds?

I;ve always been puzzled by the relationship of the PS3 OS(simplifed like the PS2 OS) and the guest OS(Linux, OSX, XP(yeah, right!). I just hope the Linux PS3 version has a GUI, i can not do anymore without it. i would imagine that your average joe would go nuts having to use commandline to basic stuff like, web surfing, emailing, launching application,etc.

[Domination]

What do the kids use their PC for? Surfing the web, instant messaging and games. What does PS3 do for them now? The very same. No $1000 PC needed, no $250 copy of Windows Vista required, a brand new 3.2Ghz super computer now costs the price of a hard drive. What'll that be, 100 bucks? Even outputs digital to your monitor.

Sony are doing a pincer movement on Microsoft, attacking XBox head on, and then going for their cash cow, Windows and Office.

This is a huge win for linux. Go Sony.

Microsoft are like a giant lumbering colossus with lots of little guys on horseback shooting arrows at it. Google, Apple, Sony, Sun. Someday one of these company will find a weakspot and some fur to climb onto. :D


http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/laugh2.gif Seriously, that was funny, but it does seem to hold true when it's not spoken of metaphorically.

[Coded-Dude]

IMHO: The PS3 standard interface will be very similar to the PSP interface(as has been previously shown) Linux will be bootable, either from the PS3 standard interface or from the PS3 boot interface. I will assume it is going to be available from the standard interface(Seeing as how Cell can run multiple operating systems simultaneously) But who knows. The linux for PS2 didi have a GUI, it woud have to for developers to get anything done. I don't know wich was default, but you could compile your own, if you knew what you were doing. As I stated before, if you can have root on the Linux4PS3, then anything is possible. You can already go to IBM and download the linux kernel and gcc compiler for CELL, which technically means you can already start on "HOMEBREW" all you will really need is a crosscompiler(but that might not be available to the public). Anywho, the OS will definately feature: Instant Messaging/Chat(including video feeds), Internet Browsing, Application Development, MultiMedia Support(mp3's, movies, games), and virtually anythign else your linux heart desires.

Basically they can't really restrict what you can/can't do with teh operating system, Sony can really only restrict what OS you can/can't run on their hardware. Once linux is availabel you will see MANY developers working hard on cool homebrew stuff. AS they did with Linux4PS2.

THe only roadblock Sony has in regards to competeing with Micosoft Windows is Microsoft Office. If office were available in the open source communtiy, you would definately see many, MANY people abandon windows......seriously! But alas, M$ has the monopoly, and has yet to give it up. I'm not saying you can't send/recieve/manipulate Exchange(or other office realted files) in Linux, becuase it is possible, but you could incurr issues. Especially when Vista launches and DRM is more prevalent. Well, that is enough for now, I will talk at you guys/girls later........:wave:

[xbdestroya]

OpenOffice people, OpenOffice...

Frankly I've moved over to it from regular Office anyway. It's awesome. For those that don't want to pay Microsoft's price, this is the way to go.

[Coded-Dude]

Open OfficeTell that to corporate America...you think managers and other uninformed employess want to learn a new set of office tools. MS office is conveniant, and M$ likes it that way....... Though I do agree with you xbdestroya; completely!

[Crossbar]

Well Sony would have to make their own GUI and compiler etc. Unless of course they strike a deal with red hat or something. But if they do make their own version of linux will it then be able to run on home computers or do you think it will be designed specifically for the ps3 and cell.They will probably tap into the enormous Linux code base and why not base it on the Linux version ibm already has modified for the cell (ver 2.6.11) see http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20050525/105050/

Software published under GNU is free as long as you share and publish your changes there are some pitfalls with some parts of Linux concerning drivers, that you might want to keep for yourself, but I am sure Sony has the knowledge how to avoid them.

There are a few GUIs to choose from but they are likely to pick one of the two largest: KDE or Gnome, but the desktop will of course be all custom made, for the developers it doesn't really matter much which one they pick.

And Dude you are right it should be OpenOffice and Firefox.

[xbdestroya]

Tell that to corporate America...you think managers and other uninformed employess want to learn a new set of office tools. MS office is conveniant, and M$ likes it that way....... Though I do agree with you xbdestroya; completely!

Hey, if state governments are picking it up, I think anybody might! But big corporations aren't going to be using PS3's for their needs either, so that's all moot. We're just talking about the consumer here, and I think if Sony can ship the Linux distro with some sort of Power/Cell adapted OpenOffice then people would truly find the utility in what Sony is offering.

I mean afterall, OpenOffice is compatible with all the Microsoft file formats, so no worries about it being 'useless' in terms of files or compatability with Windows PCs.

[jaxmkii]

i don't mean to be a wet blanket but dint they try linux with PS2? trust me i would love to see that war profiter bill gates GET F$%^ UP!

[Coded-Dude]

^ yes they did but it was primarily directed towards developers.

brb.......

[EDIT]
Sorry its been a while since I visted, and I have a new PC so my old bookmarks are gone.
Go HERE (http://playstation2-linux.com/) to get an idea of what they were able to accomplish.

It didn't take off, because Sony didn't really market it to the general public. The PS2 linux kit was only available for a short time in NA, and then they discontinued production. You can still find the occassional kit on ebay or the sit eI posted, but rarely. PS3 LINUX is a different story, you will NEED it for things like video/photo manipulation. I honestly can't wait to get my hands on this kit(PS3 Linux), I am actually looking forward to the linux kit more than any launch game. Don't get me wrong I will definately buy and play several launch games, but the first thing I will do is boot linux up.

[Garfunkel]

And sony should try to advertise for it like giving a free copy of a linux distro when they ship there computers, and on the ps3 version they should provide links to great linux resources and stuff.

I REALY WANNA SEE M$ GO DOWN THE CRAPPA SO THAT PC USERS DON'T GET RIPPED OFF ANTMORE! I SHALL NEVER BUY ANOTHER M$ PRODUCT AS LONG AS I SHALL LIVE!

[Maya 5.0]

I used to have one of thos PS2 Linux kits a few years ago.Ended up selling it on ebay.

[Saibo]

wow Dude thanks for the site, i found some nice C/C++ programming stuff there. Its good to know that Linux for PS2 had a GUI, we can assume PS3 linux will also..there was a guy in other forum, so insist that the Linux for PS3 would not have a GUI(i dont know why he thinks this..?). I cant wait to see how fast the PS3Linux community well grow!!

maybe i'll write a 3D modeler application for the PS3? :P




^ yes they did but it was primarily directed towards developers.

brb.......

[EDIT]
Sorry its been a while since I visted, and I have a new PC so my old bookmarks are gone.
Go HERE (http://playstation2-linux.com/) to get an idea of what they were able to accomplish.

It didn't take off, because Sony didn't really market it to the general public. The PS2 linux kit was only available for a short time in NA, and then they discontinued production. You can still find the occassional kit on ebay or the sit eI posted, but rarely. PS3 LINUX is a different story, you will NEED it for things like video/photo manipulation. I honestly can't wait to get my hands on this kit(PS3 Linux), I am actually looking forward to the linux kit more than any launch game. Don't get me wrong I will definately buy and play several launch games, but the first thing I will do is boot linux up.

[Coded-Dude]

wow Dude thanks for the site, i found some nice C/C++ programming stuff there. Its good to know that Linux for PS2 had a GUI, we can assume PS3 linux will also..there was a guy in other forum, so insist that the Linux for PS3 would not have a GUI(i dont know why he thinks this..?). I cant wait to see how fast the PS3Linux community well grow!!

maybe i'll write a 3D modeler application for the PS3? :P

Hey, no problem....I do what I can. Regarding the GUI, semantically speaking; it would HAVE to have a GUI or Graphical User Interface. Because, if it didnt, that would mean EVERYTHING IS COMMAND LINE DRIVEN! Can you imagine a bunch of 15 year old kids navigating linux via some sort of shell(most likely bash). The HD wouldn't sell(except to developers) and Sony is focusing this linux more towards public use(unlike the Linux for PS2 kit) Go tell him that and see what he says. They might not necessarily put a known open source desktop(like KDE, GNOME, or XFCE) but there will MOST DEFINATELY be a GUI of some sort. I will bet anybody any amount of money that it will have a GUI. I think the REAL discussion is what type of User Interface they will incorporate. It may be a Sony custom. But as I stated earlier: "The Linux kit will NOT be the standard interface." I believe the PS3 will have a UI similar to the PSP, and the linux will definately run some sort of desktop enviroment(custom or standard). Which one is still unknown, but hopefully we will find out soon.

I hope you get what I am trying to say......:smoke:

[Z]

I wouldn't be over hyped about the whole OS thing. though it has potential, I am only expecting simple, basic functions for it that are PS3 core functions.

the good news is that through an online connection, it is very probable that PS3 will get updates, and thus new features will be added.

[Garfunkel]

i had a look at some screens of linux ps2 at google images and i must say it looked rather super-duper-uber-crap, much rather prefer Ubuntu

...but that's ps2, it'll be interesting to see what they do for ps3.

[Lekko]

My guess is it won't be a full-on computer. It won't do completely anything you can think of, but it will do quite a lot. My guess is that they won't give it real true office applications, like spreadsheets and such because why would you be running a buisness off a PS3?? Most likely, it will have the most common PC apps on it, such as a reliable web browser, e-mail app, word processor, instant messenger, image and video editor, and full media playing suite. How about we start making a list of all the apps we want on it, and what we don't want on it?

[kaphwan]

My guess is it won't be a full-on computer. It won't do completely anything you can think of, but it will do quite a lot. My guess is that they won't give it real true office applications, like spreadsheets and such because why would you be running a buisness off a PS3?? Most likely, it will have the most common PC apps on it, such as a reliable web browser, e-mail app, word processor, instant messenger, image and video editor, and full media playing suite. How about we start making a list of all the apps we want on it, and what we don't want on it?

Kuturagi keeps saying the ps3's not just a gaming console, that it will have non-gaming applications. What if this is another development?

If ps3 truly takes off in this regard, Sony can cut off Microsoft at the head.

"No, you are wrong. It is Microsoft. And I will kill them."

[Coded-Dude]

I still disagree, I believe the Linux Kit For PS3 will be more featurefull than the PS2 version(which was pretty lite to start off with) The open source community allowed the growth through great development, and I have almost no doubts that the PS3 will experience the same fate. Like I said, if Sony does not give me root, I will be PISSED! Sure they will provide some supported apps that will be of great use to multi-media buffs, but they won't restrict the environment to only cater their needs. THis is a strong selling point for lots of people who hate Microsoft and love Linux. Why woudl they restrist what these people can do?

[Crossbar]

I still disagree, I believe the Linux Kit For PS3 will be more featurefull than the PS2 version(which was pretty lite to start off with) The open source community allowed the growth through great development, and I have almost no doubts that the PS3 will experience the same fate. Like I said, if Sony does not give me root, I will be PISSED! Sure they will provide some supported apps that will be of great use to multi-media buffs, but they won't restrict the environment to only cater their needs. THis is a strong selling point for lots of people who hate Microsoft and love Linux. Why woudl they restrist what these people can do?
I think we should expect the Linux support from Sony to be pretty "lite" to start with. They do not want to subidize the consoles to have people only running Linux application on them. That would mean bad business, they want people to buy games to give them royalties.
Later on the life cycle when they start making money from the hardware, there will be a different situation, then they may want to start tap into the Linux world and go for Microsofts throat. (remember Kens words)

Don't worry to much about Sony not giving you root access, someone will make it available to you sooner or later anyway. :smoke:

[Saibo]

I think we should expect the Linux support from Sony to be pretty "lite" to start with. They do not want to subidize the consoles to have people only running Linux application on them. That would mean bad business, they want people to buy games to give them royalties.
Later on the life cycle when they start making money from the hardware, there will be a different situation, then they may want to start tap into the Linux world and go for Microsofts throat. (remember Kens words)

Don't worry to much about Sony not giving you root access, someone will make it available to you sooner or later anyway. :smoke:

running Linux and buy PS3 games are 2 totally seperate things. I'll be using the PS3 linux and at the same time i'll be buying PS3 game as usually..i dont really see what your trying to say between the 2. IMO Linux support this time around is going to be even better than the PS2, case being IBM with the cell SDK, the PS3 is not even out yet! So they are definitely pushing Linux. It would be like, Sony saying "We dont want to people to use the PS3 as a Blu-Ray movie player..So lets release only a couple of bluray movies per month"Does that make sense? People were using the PS2 as just a DVD player in the past also. Sony is actually a very confident company when it comes to their gaming business, and this time around they are pushing Blu-Ray, and Linux(even harder than before) on top of that.

Im sure theres going to be homebrew on thru the PS3 Linux, but that doesnt really hurt Sony at all(as far as selling games). No one is going to stop buying triple A titles in favour of some one level,buggy homebrew game. It takes a team of very talented and dedicated people to make a great game,many many years, so indy/homebrew developers arent a threat IMO.

2 things i want to clearlyful as i see this is how it might pan out. Remember that the PS3 OS(which probably be a simplified OS ala the PSP crossbar) well have, network, game, memory card, web option..but they are lock and can only we update by a Sony firmware update? This is totally different than booting up Linux on the PS3, which contains its own GUI,web broswer, Open Office, IM,applications,etc? Which can be driven by the open source programmers. I hope that make sense. open source or sony supporting, either way its a win-win situation.:rotate:

A couple of question about Linux for any gurus in the forum. Bare with me, they might be really stupid noob linux question, but i have yet to find out the answer..

1. How much memory does Linux require when its install? give me a ballpark number

2. Linux comes with alot of application sometimes pack in, i assume you could remove any no critical app ? So we can use less system memory. i.e. in windows, the damn thing is so bloated it takes up so much ram to run background processes..errr.. My concern is with 512 MB of system memory, i would like to strip out anything thats not important to me.

3. Isnt most linux distro customizable, as far as the icons, themes goes? I.E. you install a distro, but you dont like its icon, i think you can easily create new ones and replace them?

thats about it..

@Dude, what do you mean by root access?...

the black keyboard is pretty damn sexy:

http://playstation2-linux.com/Linux_kit.jpg

But does anyone else think that the VGA cable is way too short? i assume red/white cable are audio L/R, so it means i would have to look it up to a external speak system...hmm.

PS2 Linux GUI?:

http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/article/20010827/ps03_4.jpg

It does look awful, but that was many years ago. Im sure the design team can come up with a better GUI for the PS3.

Maybe a GUI like this?:

http://images.xboxyde.com/gallery/public/2145/899_0034.jpg
http://images.xboxyde.com/gallery/public/2145/899_0035.jpg

PS2 Linux never really caught on because, Sony stop making them avaible to the general public(i have no idea why they stop making the linux kit..!?).

Lastly, there is still something call the digital divide, PS3 Linux would definitely help desolve it..Back when the PS2 was out, i could not afford a computer at all.

[Lekko]

When Kutaragi said that it would have non-game apps, he probably meant web browser, media player, word processor. And when I say no buisness apps, I mean that it would be stupid to have a company that uses PS3s as their desktops. Why would you NOT want the PS3 as a buisness computer? Think about it: the PS3 is subsidised hardware that they lose money on when they sell a unit. this money they want to make up in selling software. I don't know about where you work, but playing videogames on your computer instead of doing your job is generally frowned upon. So those units would never have software purchased for them. (and the buisness software I'm talking about is accounting, spreadsheets, CAD software ect..).

The big deal with homebrew apps is not the applications themselves, it's more the fact that you can be running game code on the system and circumvent security. If you can run a homebrew app, you can very easily run a pirated game. Piracy = BAD.

The main reason for PS3 to have Linux on it is to give the consumer some of the same features they enjoy on their PC, without the PC. I know quite a few people that I've talked to that said "If a nextgen system can do e-mail and browse the web and do word processing, I don't need my computer." I think that's more what Sony is shooting for. The lower-end computer market. If Sony can say "hey! you don't need to buy that Dell, or that HP to do your email and surf the net, just buy a PS3 for half the price, and you get a free HD Player, and an amazing game system as well as all those standard PC functions.", then they win. Besides, think of how many PC users out there aren't fully computer literate, and play games. That's a LOT. those people are probably thinking of buying a PS3 anyways, so why not just only get a PS3 and skip buying a budget windows machine or a pricey apple?

My only issue with it is that if Sony tries to do this and shoots for the lower end of the computer market, then the PS3 Linux won't be realised very well. Not to mention if people buy it for ONLY the PC functions and never buy games for it. Sony wants to offer a great product that does almost everything you want, but also make money off game software. They have the system, now it's up to marketing to make people think "buy a PS3 for games, and you won't have to also buy a PC for email and web surfing."

[Coded-Dude]

^I think some of the NON-GAME APPS Ken mentioned are: multimedia editing apps, which Sony should directly support, like a PHOTO EDITOR, a VIDEO TRANSCODER, a MUSIC ENCODER, etc., etc.
(Something like the PSP media Manager for Windows)

Anwyo as for your questions Saibo, they are NOT stupid by any means.
1. How much memory does Linux require when its install? give me a ballpark numberThat is a tough question, becuse it varies depeding on your install base, but to put it into perspective, the PS2 has 32MB of memory and runs the above shown desktop just fine(thats what swap is for as well) Also, some of the major open source desktops are becoming as bloated as windows; as far as background processes are concerned - (KDE and GNOME specifically) But 512MB of ram with approximately 1-1.5GB of swap would be more than sufficient.

2. Linux comes with alot of application sometimes pack in, i assume you could remove any no critical app ? So we can use less system memory. i.e. in windows, the damn thing is so bloated it takes up so much ram to run background processes..errr.. My concern is with 512 MB of system memory, i would like to strip out anything thats not important to me.This goes back to my statement("I better get root") Root is just the username given to the Administrator**(if you log into windows you would type Administrator, to get full system access - in linux the you would type root) Dependign on which linux flavor/distro they decide to use is imperative here, because many of them have different package manangers. Though I would think they will use something like apt-get(debian) or rpm(red-hat). But you wont' get a bloated OS, Sony should optimize the OS, becasue it will be pre-loaded. You shouldn't need to remove any apps, I think adding apps will be a bigger necessity, which woudl require some sort of root access.

3. Isnt most linux distro customizable, as far as the icons, themes goes? I.E. you install a distro, but you dont like its icon, i think you can easily create new ones and replace them?
Yes, most distro's come with several desktops you can choose from, and within each desktop there are several themes you can downlaod to customize you experience. Again this all depends on which flavor of linux you choos

@Dude, what do you mean by root access?...
Administrator privilages - the ability to configure services, add/remove users and/or applications etc. etc.

The big deal with homebrew apps is not the applications themselves, it's more the fact that you can be running game code on the system and circumvent security. If you can run a homebrew app, you can very easily run a pirated game. Piracy = BAD.
But this won't matter on Linux, because the Linux OS will be independant from the PS3 OS. They will be able to comunicate between one another(i.e. both will have acess to the hard drive) But the ability to code, adn run "homebrew" apps on linux will not affect the ability(or lack thereof) to run pirated games through the PS3's main interface.....

[Teh Roxor!]

If they can get one version of Linux working on the PS3, that probably means it's possible (with a bit of work) to get ANY Linux distro running.

[Crossbar]

Thanks Lekko, well written post, saved me some time.;-]

Besides, blu-ray and Linux are two very different things. Sony will make money from blu-ray because they own contents and they sell HD-dispkays and projectors. The business model for Linux is much harder to see. I really don´t see how Sony can make money from it besides selling more units under the condition they sell it with a profit. There is of course some good-will to gain if the PS3 could offer PC functionality, but as long the hardware is subsidised I doubt it will be a high priority for Sony, but I hope they will prove me wrong.

In the long run there may be some benefit from it because it may undermine Microsofts monopoly and thereby weaken a competetitor. There may be other ways as well, please feel free to educate me.

[Coded-Dude]

YES and NO The Roxor, they were not able to get every OS running on PS2, but that was becasue of hardware restirctions imposed by Sony. They could potentially do the same thing for PS3, and I expect they will.... This feature might also be hacked, but I dont' even think they hacked the PS2 linux kit(you HAD to have the Sony CD for Linux to run) Somebody came close to hacking it, but gave up, and this is like last year of the year before. Remember that the kit has been out for a while now.

The problems, the PlayStation is not like any old PC(x86 arch) it is a completely different hardware with a completely different boot up sequence AND specialized drivers written by Sony for their custom internal hardware.

You might get a different distro up and running(becasue the kernel will work on CELL), but I doubt it will recognize all the other hardware. There won't be linux drivers for RSX(its PS3 only) and I don't know if there are any BD drivers for linux yet. Of course, if you enjoy reverse engineering and coding device drivers, this project is for you, but I can garauntee I will avoid all this trouble.

[GTShotoKen]

Were there any homebrew apps made for Linux on PS2 Dude?

I wonder what kind of functionality it was used for. I don't know anyone who has it so I can't think of much people could do with it.

[jaxmkii]

The business model for Linux is much harder to see. I really don´t see how Sony can make money from it besides selling more units under the condition they sell it with a profit.

In the long run there may be some benefit from it because it may undermine Microsofts monopoly and thereby weaken a competetitor. There may be other ways as well, please feel free to educate me.
i think you got it right on the Dongle! linux would just be a way to kick MS in the balls buy showing the world "hey look there is an alternitive to winDUHs

[Saibo]

Were there any homebrew apps made for Linux on PS2 Dude?

I wonder what kind of functionality it was used for. I don't know anyone who has it so I can't think of much people could do with it.

I havent seen any interesting homebrew from it, i would love to see some homebrew games made with it myself.

They stop saling awhile ago, by the time i found out about it, its was too late..So you'll probably be hard press to find anyone in the USA with a PS2 Linux kit. I honest wonder why they stop saling it, maybe it wasnt a big hit?



The business model for Linux is much harder to see. I really don´t see how Sony can make money from it besides selling more units under the condition they sell it with a profit.


Are you implying that Sony wants to make money off of Linux PS3? If so i would disagree on that. Sony bread and butter, will always be saling games, having Linux on it is only a side effect, that benefit the consumer. putting Linux on the PS3, probably isnt aim at kicking MS in the balls, since they been doing that since the PSone(with Net Yaroze)? So its nothing new..

I dont think its even possible to make money off Linux?

Honest, i just want to do some programming on the Cell, and maybe create a simple application or 2.

@Dude, thanks for answering my question about Linux, hopefully Sony will reveal all the details of it at next year CES. Im really excited about it. :rotate: I take it that your a programmer, or at least into programming? Depending on how things go, i might buy 5-6 PS3 to use as a mini renderfarm...

[Applefiend]

This whole "Multiple Operating systems at the same time" on Cell thing intrigues me. So I'm playing a bit of MGS4, hit a key combination, it switches to my Linux system with Firefox, Open Office and all that. Do that for a while, switch back to my game...

PS3 is just another OS.

I can dream. :D

[Lekko]

A kick in the balls to microsoft is not even close to the issue. It's free PC like added functionality. If you want an OS on your system that is cheap to put on there, and is capable of anything a PC can, then Linux is your OS. Sony could probably get some Windows derivative to run on the PS3, but microsoft would charge royalties ontop of royalties on it. So the thought of a windows OS on the PS3 on an included HD would run about $300. So that's out of the question. And besides, Sony spent a bajillion dollars developing Cell, they don't want to spend another bajillion developing their own full OS for one console.

[Z]

Sony spent a bajillion dollars developing Cell
more like 133 million. didn't see that one coming huh?
Cell project is 400 million between three players: IBM, Toshiba and Sony.

I will be very happy if Sony eases up on homebrew on PS3's OS. some really handy and fancy stuff is going around on PSP. but judging on how phobic they are with PSP, it is safe to guess PS3 won't be a smooth ride.
they have a good point which is fighting piracy, but I really see a lot of good potential from it.

[Crossbar]

Are you implying that Sony wants to make money off of Linux PS3? If so i would disagree on that. Sony bread and butter, will always be saling games, having Linux on it is only a side effect, that benefit the consumer.?...
Yes I am sure Sony wants to make money if they chose to include Linux in such a way that it will be available to the user to run homebrew and such. And I am even more than sure that they do not want to lose money by doing so which would be tha case if someone buys a subsidised PS3 and don't buy games.
putting Linux on the PS3, probably isnt aim at kicking MS in the balls, since they been doing that since the PSone(with Net Yaroze)? So its nothing new..?... Hmm, never heard of Net Yaroze, never really took off did it? I think Linux, Firefox and Open Office is somewhat more commonly known. Perhaps a bit more mature products.
I dont think its even possible to make money off Linux?... There are a few companies who actually do that. Maybe you heard of Red Hat, Sun, IBM, etc.etc....

Honest, i just want to do some programming on the Cell, and maybe create a simple application or 2. I would like to do that as well, but we are a small minority and I am afraid Sony will not give us much priority, but again I hope I am wrong.

[Coded-Dude]

@Saibo - Actually I am a Unix/Linux Systems administrator at a very VERY large IT company(one of the worlds biggest) Anywho, you are welcome(answer to questions) I do know a little programming, but mostly shell programming, a little java, and some fundamental understanding of C/C++. I support all the programming gurus, and make sure there work enviroment is "highly available."

I'll be back in a bit to post some more stuff, we currently have a server down in cupertino that has a full filesystem - work comes first........

[Saibo]

Yes I am sure Sony wants to make money if they chose to include Linux in such a way that it will be available to the user to run homebrew and such. And I am even more than sure that they do not want to lose money by doing so which would be tha case if someone buys a subsidised PS3 and don't buy games.


Hmm, never heard of Net Yaroze, never really took off did it? I think Linux, Firefox and Open Office is somewhat more commonly known. Perhaps a bit more mature products.


There are a few companies who actually do that. Maybe you heard of Red Hat, Sun, IBM, etc.etc....

I would like to do that as well, but we are a small minority and I am afraid Sony will not give us much priority, but again I hope I am wrong.

Like i said before, Sony doesnt have to worry about saling the PS3 just so people only use Linux and not buy their games. If anything gamers will contirue to buy games and embrace Linux on the PS3 at the same time. Piracy or Linux wont stop gamers from buying games. So its really a non issue for me on both counts.

Net Yaroze isnt a application, it was a indy development platform, i dont know much about it myself, but some very cool games came from it. I believe it had to run some sort of OS, so my guess would be Linux. Thats why i said, Sony putting Linux on the PS brand name isnt a new thing, they been doing since the PSone, and they continue to improve it. Hence my belief that they'll support PS3 Linux alot more this generation.

@Z, PS3 OS or Linux on PS3? There is a difference:

"Sony's Playstation 3 (PS3), expected to ship next spring, will revolutionize personal computing, says Sony Computer Entertainment CEO Ken Kutaragi in an EETimes Asia interview. The PS3 will have a Cell processor that runs multiple OSes -- including Linux -- concurrently in different OS "cells."

In June, Sony revealed that the PS3 will be marketed as both a gaming device and an "entertainment supercomputer" that can run Linux and other PC operating systems on removable, interchangeable hard drives. The drives will include task-specific Linux environments that can be used to edit videos, serve multimedia streams, and more. A Cell Linux port developed at an IBM facility in Austin, Texas is expected to appear in the 2.6.13 kernel.

According to Kutaragi's EETimes Asia interview, the Cell was conceived from the ground up as a revolutionary computer processor, rather than as a processor for gaming devices. It was also designed to run multiple operating systems concurrently, in separate cells:

* The lowest-level Cell kernel, called Level 0, is a proprietary layer implemented mainly for security reasons, Kutaragi says -- Playstation game developers will no longer be able to directly control the hardware.
* A Level 1 OS will include device drivers and a real-time kernel and scheduler, and will provide all the APIs needed by real-time game developers, according to the interview.
* A Level 2 OS -- also called a guest OS layer -- might be Linux, a PC OS, or a Playstation OS, depending on how the user wishes to apply the device. Sony and its ISV (independent software vendor) and gaming content partners will sell guest OSes on interchangeable, removable hard drives pre-installed with task-based operating systems of various kinds.Kutaragi says the Cell processor's separation and partitioning of each OS level will permit programmers to concentrate on their targeted areas of concern, without worrying about other levels, according to the EETimes Asia.

Kutaragi describes many challenges involved in getting the Cell processor and PS3s to market, including the integration of Blu-Ray high-definition DVD technology, and display technology from partner NVidia -- not to mention ramping up production of a new processor design to millions of units in less than a year."

I just wanted to post that up, so that everyone is on the same page as far as PS3 OS goes. Im excited about it still, even if they include a very cool compositing application, it would be great. My favorite 3D software; Modo will be ported to Linux by the time PS3 Linux is out, so i should get that to run on Cell just fine.

[Crossbar]

Like i said before, Sony doesnt have to worry about saling the PS3 just so people only use Linux and not buy their games. youIf anything gamers will contirue to buy games and embrace Linux on the PS3 at the same time.
I guess that what you are saying is that it would be such a small fraction of people buying a subsidised PS3 to run Linux on and not buying games that it wouldn't matter to Sony.

You may be right, but from the quote:

"Sony and its ISV (independent software vendor) and gaming content partners will sell guest OSes on interchangeable, removable hard drives pre-installed with task-based operating systems of various kinds."

I draw the conclusion Sony wants to make money from Linux or some other OS.

[rpgamer_2k5]

The PS3 will be my computer. Sony wouldn't dare to limit a console with the Cell processor. If they do then other "options" might have to be taken. And I one that is totally against videogame piracy.

I feel that Sony is going to allow us to install various applications that are compatible on the Cell. :)

[Saibo]

You may be right, but from the quote:

"Sony and its ISV (independent software vendor) and gaming content partners will sell guest OSes on interchangeable, removable hard drives pre-installed with task-based operating systems of various kinds."

I draw the conclusion Sony wants to make money from Linux or some other OS.

I think they are going to make money off the HDD itself, it probably includes the cost of Linux and the pre-install application , figured into the price. Also just maybe, one of the ISV might be Alias, they been doing some cloth simulation on the IBm Cell Blades..So maybe we can see a port of Maya to Cell? If not, you can still go thru Linux of Maya. Alias was one of the supporters of GSCube.

[kaphwan]

That part about the lowest level OS is interesting. So we may not see any actual piracy? Someone plz explain.

They seem committed to non-gaming uses, and selling them with all hard drives will guarantee both a wide userbase and a profit.

[Saibo]

Not to bring up a old topic..but damn i hope PS3 Linux comes with a nice C/C++ IDE and compiler..because i truelly hate MSVC++ 2005 Express Edition...:|

while im at it does anyone know of any good C/C++ tutorials..most of the tutorials online are awful..

edit:

"Both the changes to GCC for PPE optimizations and the SPU back end are expected to be released as part of a Linux distribution."