Sony 'Fab Audit' Thread

[xbdestroya]

In the interest of trying to paint a total picture of Sony's global fab capacity, the idea for this thread originated with an attempt to estimate when Sony might be ready to go 65nm. Expanding that a little to try and understand what other lines they presently have and their level of sophistication in churning out Playstation related components.

Ok so, for now I'm just putting up SCEI related fabs but I think it'd be interesting if we were ultimately able to compile them all (CMOS, LCD, etc..) But to start we have...

Nagasaki 1

- Line #1 produces the EE+GS@90nm, 200mm wafers 90nm; Process CMOS4

Nagasaki 2

- Line #1 produces the PSP MIPS CPU/media engine, 200mm wafers, 90nm on upper level; Process CMOS4

- Line #2 produces the RSX GPU, 200mm wafers, 90nm; Process CMOS4

- Line #(?) will produce Cell chips on 300mm wafers, SOI, and 65nm on Floor 1 of facility; Process 11S

- Line #(?) will produce RSX on 300mm wafers, 65nm on Floor 2 of facility; Process CMOS 5

OTSS joint fab

- Line #1 produces the EE+GS@90nm, 200mm wafers, 90nm; Process CMOS4

- Line #2 produces the RSX GPU, 200mm wafers, 90nm; Process CMOS4

- Line #(?) will produce RSX chips on 300mm wafers, 65nm; Process CMOS5

East Fishkill joint-investment

- Will produce Cell chips on 300mm wafers, SOI, 65nm; Process 11S

[xbdestroya]

East Fishkill's Sony interests are easy enough to knock out, but if anyone has any insights into how many lines Nagasaki 1, Nagasaki 2, and OTSS have respectively, and what wafer sizes and nodes those lines are on, well much appreciated!

[xbdestroya]

Ok added lines for OTSS and Nagasaki as I know the EE+GS are produced at each. I assumed 200mm wafers for both, but not sure. Also not sure if Sony's EE+GS production is at Nagasaki 1 or 2.

[xbdestroya]

Anyone know where the PSP chips are fabbed? I can't find that information... Also RSX is supposed to be fabbed at both Nagasaki 2 and OTSS, but not sure what's up with 90nm vs 65nm production lines for RSX at each, etc...

[overclocked]

We have PSP production also, this requires some serious digging/googling..

Edit: You beat me.. Theres one person that knows these things or used to atleast, should try him.

[xbdestroya]

By all means Overclocked if you know someone that knows, get what you can! :)

PSP is riddled with chips: the CPU, the GPU, the 'media engine' and the 'virtual mobile engine.' The CPU is a MIPS core that in early 2005 was being made on the 90nm node at the Nagasaki fab, not sure what's going on with the rest of these.

[cpiasminc]

In one of Sony's older financial reports on the Nagasaki fab, they do mention that the PSP CPU is produced in Nagasaki on the upper floor of Fab 2 (apparently the same line that produced an EE+GS for the PSX), at 90nm on 200mm wafers. Doesn't say anything about the GE, though.

The 90 nanometer line on the upper level of Fab 2 produces a highly sophisticated chip that integrates GS and EmotionEngine (EE), a 128-bit CPU for PS2 into a single chip. This chip, which has 53.5 million transistors, is used in PSX, a DVD recorder. Benefits of this chip include reductions in both power consumption and production costs. This line is set to be used for the production of the CPU for PlayStation Portable (PSP), a handheld video game system that is expected to go on sale during the fiscal year ending March 31, 2005.

BTW, the CPU and the "media engine" are integrated in the form of a single dual-core die.

[xbdestroya]

Thanks for that info Cpi. Man this is rough... finding where chips are produced internally you almost have to rely entirely on pre-production PR releases and articles. I know some of Sony's Nagasaki 1 line has gone over to CMOS sensor production now, and not sure to what extent their output still supports SCEI.

Also wondering whether the 90nm lines at OTSS and Nagasaki 2 initially responsible for RSX will be 200mm or 300mm, or if 300mm is exclusively 65nm related at these fabs.

[cpiasminc]

I believe the 200 mm wafers are their bulk wafers, while the 300mm wafers are the SOI wafers. So if you assume RSX is on SOI, that would probably mean it'll be on 300 mm.

[xbdestroya]

You know I'm not sure if RSX actually will use SOI though - I can't find any references to OTSS' upcoming 300mm lines supporting it, and a PC-Watch article from a while ago I found implies that the PS3 'media prcoessor' will be on the 'mass' 65nm process, as opposed to Cell's SOI process.

Speaking of which, does Toshiba produce any of their own Cell chips in house? I think they source them all at present from the other two.

[cliffbo]

i know this is a technical thread but has anyone considered that if they reduce the chipsets enough and put them in the PSP it would free up space (see where i'm coming from) = room for built in hard drive?

[xbdestroya]

i know this is a technical thread but has anyone considered that if they reduce the chipsets enough and put them in the PSP it would free up space (see where i'm coming from) = room for built in hard drive?

I've said before that I myself don't think they'd do an internal hard drive per se, but perhaps solid-state sstorage on the order of an iPod Nano or something. Lower power, less risk of breakage, and likely smaller as well - depending. Maybe there's a case to be made for a hard drive, but I don't know.

[cliffbo]

seems to me, considering Sony phillosophy of 6 to 10 year lifespan of consoles that it would also be cost effective to add something new rather that completely reinvent. and with the connectivity with PS3 being at the forefront of Sony's thinking maybe this developement goes without question. maybe like Xb said it might not be a hard drive but rather solid-state.

[xbdestroya]

Actually now that I think about it, the way PSP and PS3 interconnectivity is shaping up, I think it'll be more along the lines of the PSP will share the PS3's hard drive remotely.

[rpgamer_2k5]

Reducing the costs to produce a PSP by moving over to a 65nm process will prove to be far more effective than adding an HDD. Sony does not want to shaft a good 6-10 million users (or potential users). If the price of the PSP can be significantly reduced, say $220CAN for the bundle then the sales will definitely increase significantly.

Add a 1GB std stick with the bundle, it'll sell great.

[cliffbo]

Actually now that I think about it, the way PSP and PS3 interconnectivity is shaping up, I think it'll be more along the lines of the PSP will share the PS3's hard drive remotely.

i think that too but on the go with no hotspots around... what would you do?

[cliffbo]

Reducing the costs to produce a PSP by moving over to a 65nm process will prove to be far more effective than adding an HDD. Sony does not want to shaft a good 6-10 million users (or potential users). If the price of the PSP can be significantly reduced, say $220CAN for the bundle then the sales will definitely increase significantly.

Add a 1GB std stick with the bundle, it'll sell great.

i know i shouldn't say this because 'i love Sony' but i've thought for a long time now that the PSP is probably already in profit and don't see Sony reducing the cost soon. so with an added HD or solid-state storrage media included at the same price point it would seem a good bargain. remember PSP is not a games handheld! its an executives toy. the games are secondary to Sony's plans... world connectivity.

[MasaC]

What?

Is Cell on 65nm now? What did I miss, I thought they were on a 90nm process?

[xbdestroya]

What?

Is Cell on 65nm now? What did I miss, I thought they were on a 90nm process?

LOL, no you didn't miss anything. :)

That's why the 65nm lines are in the future tense. But they have been setting them up for years, which is why I put them there; they do factor large into what Sony's ultimate fab capacity will be.

[Crossbar]

What?

Is Cell on 65nm now? What did I miss, I thought they were on a 90nm process?
There may very well exist 65 nm cells by now, but probably at the prototype stage. It takes time from first working silicon until you go in to mass-production for Intel and AMD it's usually about a year I think.

EDIT: There is more to this, a lot of different stuff that affects the time to production like: if it's new design or just a die shrink, if you are moving to a well proven process or a brand new one, if it's a well proven production line ro a brand new one. I'm not really in a position to guess what time it would take for Sony to make this transition, but my guess is that they are working very hard at it. IBM plans to release teh Power6 CPU on 65 nm running at 4-5 GHz in the second half of 2006, it would be surprising if Sony beats IBM since they are working together.

[Domination]

I remember us having this debate before, at least as far as Cell turning up as a 65nm processor. I guess I kinda went the route of a wait and see approach since then, but even now, I remain skeptical about the specs we saw at E3 to be the final ones: too much time inbetween what's conceived of it's due date. But, we will see.

[BruceWayneIII]

Great thread and great contributions from you guys!

Regarding Cell turning up as 65nm processor: I really don't think that will happen with the PlayStation 3. I doubt SONY would start a 90nm process and change midway. That's really expensive and probably not even necessary.

I think the E3 specs will remain. The rest of SONY's resources are spent on production, testing, certifying and testing 3rd party accessories, game development, service development, packaging and marketing. And probably waiting for other strategic components within the corporation to fit into place.

[Infernal]

Great thread and great contributions from you guys!

Regarding Cell turning up as 65nm processor: I really don't think that will happen with the PlayStation 3. I doubt SONY would start a 90nm process and change midway. That's really expensive and probably not even necessary.

I think the E3 specs will remain. The rest of SONY's resources are spent on production, testing, certifying and testing 3rd party accessories, game development, service development, packaging and marketing. And probably waiting for other strategic components within the corporation to fit into place.
Huh? Of course their gonna switch to 65nm midway... That will save them more and more money as PS3's are sold and eventually they wont have to sell the PS3 as a loss and price drops will be possible... Eventually they will go to 45nm (or is it 40nm?) and reduce costs even further, and then they will make the PSThree with both chips on the same die.