What can you do with Linux?

[Goki]

Ok now that harddrive and Linux are confirmed. Does this mean that its fully possible to use the PS3 as a PC? Will I be able to play games then revert to my Microsoft wordpad assignment (keyboard and emulator provided ofcourse)

Can someone confirm, speculate on this for me. Makes me excited gettin a real powerful gaming pc for the price of a graphic card.

[Coded-Dude]

there are many threads dedicated to the linux PS3 environment and offerings.
In short - Linux is an Operating System; so the answer to your question is yes...you can use it as a dekstop PC

[Goki]

So s there only one type of linux. and thats the one that included with the hdd with ps3. The xbox360 dash is supposed to be a subsidized windows media centre am i correct. Anyone think it'll be "personalized" for good or bad, for the PS3?

(sorry if there's other threads out there regarding this issue, just that with the info today, seems eveything else is getting drowned, i wanted to make a new discussion thread regarding linux releveant to the official confirmation today)

[Danji Ikari]

Think choices. When you launch the PS3 will probably ask you if you want to boot into the Linux or PS3 OS. As to make it user friendly. This could also be changed to an option on the XMB (cross-media bar) menu.

[Coded-Dude]

GO HERE READ THIS (http://www.linuxiso.org/viewdoc.php/introtolinux.html)
You will hav ea better idea of what Linux is all about, then come back and we can discuss it more.

:cheers:

[Goki]

GO HERE READ THIS (http://www.linuxiso.org/viewdoc.php/introtolinux.html)
You will hav ea better idea of what Linux is all about, then come back and we can discuss it more.

:cheers:

Read it thx (for the 2nd time lol) i know its an OS, but im kinda thinking it' might be an updated one, or a revamped one, as its a good selling chance(i know its free, just a phrase) for the guys who do the code for linux to get ahead of Microsoft in % of people who use Microsoft OS. So the updated one could be popularized by the PS3, then Linux and Sony strike with PC's with cell processors and Linux software.

[cliffbo]

does this mean that we may be able to purchase any keyboard or any mouse?

[Coded-Dude]

does this mean that we may be able to purchase any keyboard or any mouse?
NO, there will most likely NOT be any PS/2 ports on the back.
However you will be able to use BLUETOOTH keyboard/headsets/mice and or USB ones as well
Of course Sony will probably have their official accessories...


@Goki - the only real difference between current versions of Linux and the PS3 linus will be the hardware its running on.
Linux on CELL/RSX has never been done, IBM has some CELL workstation that run linux, but that is about it right now
Sony won't have anything groundbreaking in the OS; Linus still controls the kernel updates and anythign new to the kernel woudl be new in all kernels for all architechtures

edit by danji: I changed ps2 to PS/2 to alleviate any confusion that might be caused

[Danji Ikari]

All the devices will have to be USB. Don't fret, USB keyboards and mice are really cheap now-a-days.

[Coded-Dude]

All the devices will have to be USB. Don't fret, USB keyboards and mice are really cheap now-a-days.or bluetooth

[Danji Ikari]

or really expensive
Or it could be that. :)

[NoZ]

My orig. Xbox runs on linux. So wouldnt this kinda be a mistake with all the possiblities?

[frosty]

My orig. Xbox runs on linux. So wouldnt this kinda be a mistake with all the possiblities?

Your Xbox does not run on linux unless you have modded it to do so. Why would M$ put one of their competitor's OS'es in their console? And also, why would that make using Linux in PS3 a bad thing? This is a version of linux that has been optimised to run on the cell, and to make the most use of the processor's amazing abilities. I myself am floored by the prospect of being able to install Sony Vegas on my PS3 and use cell's Amazing!!! encoding/decoding abilities to edit my videos with. Couple that with a few external USB 2.0 drives, and that's one hell of an editing machine. Some may say not because it has only 512 MB ram, but I disagree. I used to edit on a 512 MB system and it did the job just fine. Not to mention that PS3's memory bandwidth blows your avg. 512 MB system out of the water.

[Saibo]

My orig. Xbox runs on linux. So wouldnt this kinda be a mistake with all the possiblities?

say what?...i didnt understand that.

Still..im concern about the Linux distro on the PS3..some screen shoots would put me at ease...cmon Phil. Wont it be cool if you could emulate WinXP on it and play some PC games?.. :D

[Coded-Dude]

I myself am floored by the prospect of being able to install Sony Vegas on my PS3 and use cell's Amazing!!! encoding/decoding abilities to edit my videos with.
I am glad someone else is hoping for a CELL compiled version of this software.
If that doesn't work, I may decide to run VMplayer and a windows instance....nah just kidding(%#&@ windows!)

[venomv]

say what?...i didnt understand that.

Still..im concern about the Linux distro on the PS3..some screen shoots would put me at ease...cmon Phil. Wont it be cool if you could emulate WinXP on it and play some PC games?.. :D

Well I think you should be able to, but will suck resourses. I wouldn't hope to play most new games with it.

[Saibo]

Well I think you should be able to, but will suck resourses. I wouldn't hope to play most new games with it.


err your probably right. my biggest issue with the PS3 is..the lack of ram, 2 GB would of been perfect for starters...:guns:

[frosty]

Oh, believe me, dude, it won't be long. Cell is Sony's baby, so is vegas. By marrying the two Sony knows they can spank every other non-linear editing setup on the market. Adobe, Avid... they should be shaking in their boots right now..

[frosty]

it's "lack" of RAM will handle playing any game just fine. 2 GB would make the system too expensive. if you want that much, buy a PC!

[NoZ]

Yes I have my Xbox modded. But what Im saying is what If somebody breaks the security or run copied games on the PS3 using linux, wouldnt this be a major fuck up

[frosty]

it's going to happen no matter which os they use

[cpiasminc]

I seriously doubt it means anything more than a Linux-based kernel as the OS. Which makes sense considering that IBM has a lot of work already poured in as far as making Linux-based CELL workstations and servers. There's going to be very little user power, and the driver library is probably fixed so that you can only buy Sony-approved peripherals.

I'd expect an "official" version to be stored in a Flash ROM or even an EEPROM so that hacks can be undone quite easily. The hard drive will be operating room for local storage, possibly swap space so that the OS avoids large active memory footprints. Also possible that they might allow the developers to dynamically link APIs rather than statically link. While the latter is usually better insofar as maintaining consistency, the former means that if someone downloads updates to the OS, those updates will also affect the game that links to them dynamically. Extremely unlikely, but possible.

What I put at infinitesimal likelihood is the idea that it will mean using the console as a PC. I imagine that NAT or switch/router type functionality might be at the core of the Linux kernel. Things like the UI, of course. The online service frontend will probably be in there. Core features that will probably only expose to you basic setup functionality.

[Goki]

This is a version of linux that has been optimised to run on the cell, and to make the most use of the processor's amazing abilities.

Is this official? Im gettin mixed messages here. I really do hope it is, but ive not heard anything to confirm or deny.

[Coded-Dude]

if by optimiized you mean: COMPILED TO RUN ON SAID HARDWARE, then yes......
the only real way to optimize the damn thing is to carve out built in modules and make it as small as possible.

There's going to be very little user power
I see where you are coming from CP, but for my sake, I certainly hope your wrong.....

[Saibo]

I seriously doubt it means anything more than a Linux-based kernel as the OS. Which makes sense considering that IBM has a lot of work already poured in as far as making Linux-based CELL workstations and servers. There's going to be very little user power, and the driver library is probably fixed so that you can only buy Sony-approved peripherals.

I'd expect an "official" version to be stored in a Flash ROM or even an EEPROM so that hacks can be undone quite easily. The hard drive will be operating room for local storage, possibly swap space so that the OS avoids large active memory footprints. Also possible that they might allow the developers to dynamically link APIs rather than statically link. While the latter is usually better insofar as maintaining consistency, the former means that if someone downloads updates to the OS, those updates will also affect the game that links to them dynamically. Extremely unlikely, but possible.

What I put at infinitesimal likelihood is the idea that it will mean using the console as a PC. I imagine that NAT or switch/router type functionality might be at the core of the Linux kernel. Things like the UI, of course. The online service frontend will probably be in there. Core features that will probably only expose to you basic setup functionality.


I disagree. so there? :clapping: I hope your wrong and that we do get to us it as a Personal Computer,..would be great for indy development you know. Im still sticking to my guns, until the truth is knew about Linux on the PS3.

PS2 Linux kit < == > PS3 Linux

[Goki]

if by optimiized you mean: COMPILED TO RUN ON SAID HARDWARE, then yes......
the only real way to optimize the damn thing is to carve out built in modules and make it as small as possible.




Nah in that case i think customised would be a wiser word choice, optimized makes it sound like it is for optmized performance, meaning the best possible performance on said hardware.

[Coded-Dude]

thats whay I meant when I said that(it was kind of inferred)
They(IBM) can really only optimize apps/software, as stated befreo Linus still holds control over all kernel changes and I am not sure how "focused" they are at optimizing the kernel right now. There are minimal changes the end-user/developer could mnake to the kernel, but not enough to see jaw dropping differences(that will be noticable in teh apps though)

Of course, you will most definately see a substantial difference in overal performance
(when compared to modern pc's running linux)
I am anxious to see soem benchmarks!

[OmniCloud]

Ok guys...show some compassion for the mentally retarded here...what exactly are we gonna be able to do with the Linux OS? I mean is it basically like the PSP where u can customize the background with Pictures, and play movies and music? What is this about editing videos stuff, are u saying I can actually download programs like Windows media player or PSPvideo9 or even Kazaa, and they run on my PS3 and use the HDD for storage? that sounds like a computer to me. Any1 with the time and patience plz explain...

[Coded-Dude]

I am going to go to lunch, come back and writre a 10 page article that hopefully someone will sticky, but for now....here is this: PS3 will have 2 interfaces(yes 2!). one will be teh default PS3 interface, which is allegedly much like the PSP interface(but again, that is only rumor - we don't knwo what it will look like) Then there will be the Linux interface, which could potentially go one of two ways:

1) It will run simultaneously with the PS3 interface and/or be a part of the PS3 interface
2) It iwll boot seperately from the PS3 interface

If the version of Linux is anything remotely similar to the PS2 linux kit, then YES you will be able to run a full fledged desktop with all the apps you want(of coursethey have to be supported to run on linux AND cell) Windows media player and PSPvideo9 are windows apps, and don't run on linux natively, sure on a standard PC you can emulate them or compile them, but CELL+RSX is a totally NEW architecture, and thus will have limited application/software support at first. That doesn't mena cool apps won't ocme later. But we still have to see what kind of "control" Sony will give us over the operating system.

Expect more info at GDC and or E3(i.e. be patient)

[cpiasminc]

I hope your wrong and that we do get to us it as a Personal Computer,..would be great for indy development you know.
No argument there. I just don't see it as likely. And from my perspective as someone who's had to deal with PSP development, I tend to see Sony being very much *against* homebrew anything. And from the perspective of having worked for independent developers, Sony doesn't really care much about any indie developer unless they already have a major track record. I guarantee you that if PS2 was actually expected to be the premiere Sony platform through to 2010, we wouldn't have a PS2 Linux kit until 2008 at the earliest.

Hell, I would love to be able to tinker with it at home in my spare time. But that's a pipe dream. At least until development/design of the PS4 becomes their main concern in the console division.

what exactly are we gonna be able to do with the Linux OS? I mean is it basically like the PSP where u can customize the background with Pictures, and play movies and music? What is this about editing videos stuff, are u saying I can actually download programs like Windows media player or PSPvideo9 or even Kazaa, and they run on my PS3 and use the HDD for storage?
Most of those things don't really require Linux, though your examples of Kazaa or video editing, I don't see as too likely. Things like user skinning of backgrounds and themes and so on are already possible on the 360, which is Windows-based. As far as video is concerned, I do see some *management* type of tools as possible (much like a typical media-center DVR type box might have), but not much in the way of editing and re-encoding or anything like that. Maybe some little tools that might convert video over for PSP or video iPods at best.

Probably the biggest thing that comes to mind as far as something Linux can do better than other OSes that might be useful is remote login/access. Granted, they'll still probably take measures to make sure you get an ordinary PS3 interface on a remote login, but the point is it would be possible over LAN to view stuff on your PC, or stream something on your PC over to the PS3 so it plays on your HDTV.

[venomv]

I seriously doubt it means anything more than a Linux-based kernel as the OS. Which makes sense considering that IBM has a lot of work already poured in as far as making Linux-based CELL workstations and servers. There's going to be very little user power, and the driver library is probably fixed so that you can only buy Sony-approved peripherals.

I'd expect an "official" version to be stored in a Flash ROM or even an EEPROM so that hacks can be undone quite easily. The hard drive will be operating room for local storage, possibly swap space so that the OS avoids large active memory footprints. Also possible that they might allow the developers to dynamically link APIs rather than statically link. While the latter is usually better insofar as maintaining consistency, the former means that if someone downloads updates to the OS, those updates will also affect the game that links to them dynamically. Extremely unlikely, but possible.

What I put at infinitesimal likelihood is the idea that it will mean using the console as a PC. I imagine that NAT or switch/router type functionality might be at the core of the Linux kernel. Things like the UI, of course. The online service frontend will probably be in there. Core features that will probably only expose to you basic setup functionality.

I want to know why you think they won't have a full OS on it, I can think of a lot of reasons both ways, but what make you say that?

Also I have a question to anyone, is it legal for Sony to create and sell a Windows emulator? It doesn't seem like it should be, but I'm no expert, if it would be legal that could be a HUGE selling point, and if they sell the emulator seperatly they could make any loss they take on the consule, if it isn't to much. And they could put on the box 'Can run PC software! with upgrade' like I said HUGE selling point.

[Coded-Dude]

yes that would be illegal; however there are ALREADY applications that can run a VIRTUAL instance of almost nay operating system. VmWare fior example can run Windows or Linux on an already running Windows or Linux box
(two operating systems running simultaneously on one box.....I know its baffling)

[frosty]

I have heard them mention at least basic video editing functionality... I can't remember exactly when, it was last year... but I'm hoping they will throw us professionals a bone and release vegas, optimized for cell. They own both, and would own a PC in any and every way if they did that... wishful thinking.

[frosty]

And hasn't sony already mentioned multiple os'es... weren't they in talks with apple or something like that?

[cpiasminc]

I want to know why you think they won't have a full OS on it, I can think of a lot of reasons both ways, but what make you say that?
The biggest and most obvious reason is quite simply that the public at large is too stupid to count how many buttons are on the controller let alone use a full-blown OS. Giving people with the IQ of a lump of plastic power over the system is a guaranteed recipe for disaster. When people sue ceiling fan manufacturers because their product injured an infant tossed into the moving blades, you cannot put any access to power into their hands.

Sony is not now, nor have they ever been, nor will they ever be largely in favor of independent development. There is no real reason to be if you look at it from Sony's perspective. If you look at the history of things, the fraction of successful independently developed titles is less than one twentienth of a percent. It's easy from our point of view to say that more indie developers equals more innovation, but innovation rarely sells games. It doesn't make sense business-wise, and the industry itself is very much structured such that starting a new studio is always a bad idea. Any new startup in this age will likely have their entire existence riding on that first title.

Proliferating development capabilities means more of the particulars of the architecture that are meant to be protected by NDAs get out in the open. It won't take much time for a little whiz kid with some developer tools on a homebrew box to work backwards from behaviors he sees on the surface and learn things about the ways the architecture may behave. And since a homebrew guy isn't restricted to any NDA, that pretty much means he can spill all the beans he wants.

It's easy to tell indie developers working off of non-professional devkits that they're not allowed to make money off of anything they develop. It is all the harder to enforce it, particularly if they're in countries where the console itself is not legally sold, meaning the agreements don't legally bind out there. Even otherwise, it's very costly to track down people making that agreement and pay lawyers and court fees for said cases even if they may be open-and-shut.

A full OS is not exactly far removed from the idea of selling the console pre-cracked with all the tools necessary to pirate games readily available right out of the box. I exaggerate a little, but giving free access to the low-level layers that check everything going in and coming out means that anybody with a little time can overwrite those drivers to free up those restrictions.

Also I have a question to anyone, is it legal for Sony to create and sell a Windows emulator?
It's perfectly legal. All they'd have to do is pay Microsoft royalty fees for every PS3 sold. ;)

And hasn't sony already mentioned multiple os'es... weren't they in talks with apple or something like that?
No. It was IBM and that was about the fact that system virtualization allows them to run multiple OSes simultaneously. There were never any talks about PS3 running multiple OSes.

[frosty]

the wet blanket pwnes again. well, what's the chance of sony releasing apps, or allowing 3rd parties to release apps for it? word processing, video editing, etc...

[stanDarsh]

Sony is not now, nor have they ever been, nor will they ever be largely in favor of independent development.

I disagree with you here. Let's not forget the black Net Yaroze PS1 sony made specifically for anyone with the skills to make their own games. PS2 came with YaBasic, and there was also a linux kit sold separately for similar reasons.

[Stelio]

Your Xbox does not run on linux unless you have modded it to do so. Why would M$ put one of their competitor's OS'es in their console? And also, why would that make using Linux in PS3 a bad thing? This is a version of linux that has been optimised to run on the cell, and to make the most use of the processor's amazing abilities. I myself am floored by the prospect of being able to install Sony Vegas on my PS3 and use cell's Amazing!!! encoding/decoding abilities to edit my videos with. Couple that with a few external USB 2.0 drives, and that's one hell of an editing machine. Some may say not because it has only 512 MB ram, but I disagree. I used to edit on a 512 MB system and it did the job just fine. Not to mention that PS3's memory bandwidth blows your avg. 512 MB system out of the water.


That's exactly what I'm thinking.

I'm also into video editing (bread and butter is - music production/audio engineering) and am curious to see how it performs. With all the USB ports added to boot, we may have an affordable yet powerful machine.

I'm intreagued and want to know more. However, this would mean that I would have to purchase software made for Linux? That sounds pricey.

I will explore all available options.

The one thing I would be interested in doing is linking all available pc's to my PS3, running CuBase SX 3, in order to have added processing.

Very interesting stuff indeed.

[venomv]

@Cpias How willing do you think MS would be having Sony pay royalties for every emulater they sell, would make sense from both prespectives I think if they sell the emulater seperate from the consule. And I figured they could do it for a fee, but I ment with MS's consent, didn't think they could do it legally, and they wouldn't do that.

[Stelio]

I disagree with you here. Let's not forget the black Net Yaroze PS1 sony made specifically for anyone with the skills to make their own games. PS2 came with YaBasic, and there was also a linux kit sold separately for similar reasons.



This is very true...we will soon find out...in 8 months. There's always a negative somewhere.


[EDIT] - I suddenly realize that my rep power has gone down...interesting stuff. Any clues?

[Coded-Dude]

CPIASMINC.............tehehehehehe, where do I begin!
As previously stated; I see where you are coming from, and knowing a little bit about what you post and how often post, I can completely understand. HOWEVER, I still do disagree somewhat.
(though I am sure we will continue to disagree after my statement)
;)
A full OS is not exactly far removed from the idea of selling the console pre-cracked with all the tools necessary to pirate games readily available right out of the box. I exaggerate a little, but giving free access to the low-level layers that check everything going in and coming out means that anybody with a little time can overwrite those drivers to free up those restrictions.
Sony has already proven that they can do very well with protecting their low-level hardware. They did that with the Linux for PS2 kit. The ONLY way to boot the OS was from the provided CD. Certainly people ripped the disc and piracy was rampant, but nobody ever figured out how to boot without the disc! There were some major advancements by a select few people but none of them were able to finish(And nobody else finished their work for them)..........btw - I'll give you one guess as to what happened to these select few guys. They were hired by Sony! Thats right. Now I can see them doing the same thing with PS3, not hire the hackers but rather, protect the low-level hardware. It would be MUCH easier to prevent piracy of the LINUX if the OS is pre-loaded on the hard drive, instead of distributing it on pirate-able media(cd/dvd). WE will get a full blown OS! To me the big question is NOT whether or not the OS will be full-featured(because I think it will), but rather, will we have ROOT privilages to install/remove/edit OS specific parameters like kernel mods, software compilation, 3rd party app installs) Basically will there be system adminstration availability? Anywho, I don't know how much they will discuss linux at GDC, I expect hardware specs more than anythign else, but we will see. Its only a week or so away!

[Domination]

Ok now that harddrive and Linux are confirmed. Does this mean that its fully possible to use the PS3 as a PC? Will I be able to play games then revert to my Microsoft wordpad assignment (keyboard and emulator provided ofcourse)

Can someone confirm, speculate on this for me. Makes me excited gettin a real powerful gaming pc for the price of a graphic card.

Think interms of entertainment and nothing else and you may find yourself less disappointed at launch.

[Coded-Dude]

I'm intreagued and want to know more. However, this would mean that I would have to purchase software made for Linux? That sounds pricey.
LOL....Linux is Open Source, most apps are FREE
Certainly there are "Enterprise Appllications" that will cost you a lot of money, but not many of those apps run on CELL yet, and the only reason they cost is becsue you get support and security patching. And they are no more/less expensive than Professional apps on other operating systems(MAC/Windows)

[wildcardd]

Listen, can anyone who thinks that there is going to be a full blown Linux distro on the hard drive point me to where that has been stated?

I believe KK said that the hdd will use Linux OS, but wouldn't that be needed for the file server functions and media options?

Just like the 360 uses a modified version of Windows as its OS, doesn't mean I can load Word on it and write up a quick letter.

I wouldn't get my hopes up too much on this being anymore than what has been said. The PS3 OS is based on Linux.

[Coded-Dude]

60 gigabyte hard drive that is fully upgradeable and compatible with the Linux operating systemPSINext ('http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=17&m_articles_articleid=418")
I don't have a transcript, but this is pretty much posted on every website that posts news....
That says OPERATING SYSTEM - NOT it will have linux-like features built in!

[Crossbar]

yes that would be illegal; however there are ALREADY applications that can run a VIRTUAL instance of almost nay operating system. VmWare fior example can run Windows or Linux on an already running Windows or Linux box
(two operating systems running simultaneously on one box.....I know its baffling)
This is kind of off topic, but for those who thinks this is interesting you can download a free version of VmWare server and try it, if you have a windows PC you can also download a Linux distro and within an hour you can have Windows and Linux running simultaneously on your PC, if you have Linux you can make a Windows installation on top (disks required) and run them simultanously as well.

I think baffling is the word.

http://www.vmware.com/news/releases/server_beta.html

I think the reason behind VmWare started having a free stripped down version of this virtualization software is that within a year, the CPUs from Intel and AMD all will have support for virtualization at hw level and then VmWare are likely to get more competition (because it will be much simpler to get the same functions), by giving away this version they kind of kill the entry level market for this kind of virtualization software. (I know the download is called beta, but they intend to keeping a free version)

[wildcardd]

PSINext ('http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=17&m_articles_articleid=418")
I don't have a transcript, but this is pretty much posted on every website that posts news....
That says OPERATING SYSTEM - NOT it will have linux-like features built in!

I am not saying "Linux Like" I am saying that the OS will be Linux, just like the 360 OS is Windows. They are both versions of an operating system, just limited as to what you can do.

Unlike what you are thinking here, I have doubts that it will be like a version of Red Hat, Suse, or Mandrake.

Of course I have been known to be wrong :)

[Coded-Dude]

Then why don't they jsut say the PS3 interface will be linux-based instead of teh PS3 HDD will be Linux compatible? That just makes more sense semantically speaking. If they were just gonna base the PS3 GUI off of the Linux operating system, I think they would have been clearer on that. You are being pessimistic because they are not being clear enough, but I think you are reading too far into what they have(not) said.......

REMEMBER - It could very well be Sony's own Linux Operating system
(I believe you only have to change Linux by approximately 15% before you can name it your own)
Thats exactly why RedHat and Mandrake are so similar - mandrake was a "ripoff" per se.

It will be interesitng to see what kind of distro they decide(custom or mainstream).
But I still think it will be a seperate initty from the standard PS3 interface, which I still believe will be similar to the PSP interface

but again like you these are just my opinions

[Crossbar]

REMEMBER - It could very well be Sony's own Linux Operating system
(I believe you only have to change Linux by approximately 15% before you can name it your own)
Thats exactly why RedHat and Mandrake are so similar - mandrake was a "ripoff" per se.
Could you please elaborate a bit what you mean by "own" in this context.

If you are are making a version based on sw published under GNU you must per se publish your sw. Therefore essentially anyone can make a rip-off of any changes you make to the kernel or whatever. Any software you write from ground up that you can compile and link separetely (could be a driver) you can call your own AFAIK.

[Coded-Dude]

If you are are making a version based on sw published under GNU you must per se publish your sw.
That is completely correct.......you can take published code, modify to a certain percentage, and call it your own; but you MUST republish the code(which Sony would mroe than likely be unwilling to do - sighting hardware security as a concern) But I can still see them designing their own Linux OS with a CELL compiled kernel.......why not?

If htey wanna take over teh PC market and take over the living room/multi-media based homes, then an open source solution is VERY feesible - trust me!

[Crossbar]

That is completely correct.......you can take published code, modify to a certain percentage, and call it your own; but you MUST republish the code(which Sony would mroe than likely be unwilling to do - sighting hardware security as a concern) But I can still see them designing their own Linux OS with a CELL compiled kernel.......why not?

If htey wanna take over teh PC market and take over the living room/multi-media based homes, then an open source solution is VERY feesible - trust me!I guess it is and one way to do it could be that Sony develop their own micro kernel and let Linux run in a virtual space up on it. They could probably limit the virtual machine in such a way that the SPEs are invisible to the Linux kernel in case they want to prevent people from making freeware games that look as good as the commercial ones.

[wildcardd]

Dude...we are cool..I love your posts.

I would agree that this does open up a ton of possibilities with the hdd...I just didn't want you to get your hopes up of a distro of linux that everyone and their mother can tinker with.

I envision some cool apps that may not ship with the PS3 initially, but eventually pushed out to the consoles as they develop it...kinda like the PSP and its web browser, photo viewer, email(eventually), etc. It is an exciting time for a Sony fan.

Coming from a marketing perspective, I know how certain words can encite mass hysteria in the communities and create false hopes. Sony has touted things and fallen short before. "Matrix" anyone?? So yes, I guess I am a bit cynical until I see it happen, but I am on the inside still giddy as a schoolgirl.

[frosty]

Well, the whole "Matrix" thing was some marketing scheme, to hype the PS2's online. This is not hyping anything, just stating that the HDD will run Linux. I can understand not believing it whole heartedly until there are more details, though. Here's a question, was Linux on PS2 limited?

[Saibo]

I disagree with you here. Let's not forget the black Net Yaroze PS1 sony made specifically for anyone with the skills to make their own games. PS2 came with YaBasic, and there was also a linux kit sold separately for similar reasons.

Yeah, im thinking the same thing. PSP wasnt really embrace as a indy platform, PSone and PS2 did have support from Sony directly, for indy development.

Like Dude, i think the PS3 OS is a very simple one ala the PSP Crossbar, but the Linux OS that comes on the HDD is a full blown OS for video editing,3D apps,indy development. But hey,no one really knows either way(its all speculation)..hopefully we'll find out at GDC! Even if you kill the Linux OS on the HDD, the PS3 can still run on its own "mini" OS. So no problem there with stupid consumers ; )

Frosty Nugs, the PS3 Linux Kit was not limited AFAIK since it was design for indy game development!:

http://playstation2-linux.com/

[Z]

sorry if this has been discussed, but somebody brought my attention to something that got me thinking: a robust OS will need RAM. how can 512 be enough, especially if there will be other tasks like playing games, streaming, etc?

[cpiasminc]

Let's not forget the black Net Yaroze PS1 sony made specifically for anyone with the skills to make their own games. PS2 came with YaBasic, and there was also a linux kit sold separately for similar reasons.
Hardly applicable. You're kidding yourself if you think Sony sold those because they actually gave a damn or had any sense of altruism towards independent developers. Moreover, none of those kits even had the slightest possibility of existing while the respective console was hot and new on the market. And icing on the cake is that there was no support of, or provisions of any kind for independent developers. The tools, documentation, and information were not within a thousand stone's throws from what established developers got, which is saying a lot considering that established developers got garbage as far as both PS1 and PS2 were concerned.

@Cpias How willing do you think MS would be having Sony pay royalties for every emulater they sell, would make sense from both prespectives I think if they sell the emulater seperate from the consule. And I figured they could do it for a fee, but I ment with MS's consent, didn't think they could do it legally, and they wouldn't do that.
Perhaps I should have qualified that with a sarcasm tag rather than a smiley.

Sony has already proven that they can do very well with protecting their low-level hardware. They did that with the Linux for PS2 kit. The ONLY way to boot the OS was from the provided CD. Certainly people ripped the disc and piracy was rampant, but nobody ever figured out how to boot without the disc!
Okay... that's fine. The point was not that bypassing or circumventing the OS was the key to piracy. And it wasn't about attacking the low-level hardware. It was about the software layers to the OS itself, and utilizing the OS to see where dataflow heads and how to fake it. A resident sniffing app can easily do that, especially if a user is given super user or root access. The ability to copy off disc images with copy protection and all is a piece of cake if you can just write and run your own apps directly.

It would be MUCH easier to prevent piracy of the LINUX if the OS is pre-loaded on the hard drive, instead of distributing it on pirate-able media(cd/dvd).
I'm curious as to why you think a medium made for rapid erasure and effectively limitless rewrites and capable of being used as virtual memory space is more difficult to pirate through than a physically read-only medium. At least something like an EEPROM or Flash provides a little more challenge.

Again, I'm not talking about piracy of the distribution. I'm talking about the free access to the system making things easy for pirating of games themselves.

[Red_Eyes]

That lack of ram problem will be solve by the harddrive. Just like how Linux and Windows uses the harddrive to create virtual ram. Though it is slow, at least you can use more "rams" than what you physically has. So basically, swapping.

And the other thing. I think Linux will be running on top of the PS3 low level OS. Remember that PS3 has several levels. And by running Linux on top of the low level OS, Linux will be prevented from doing acts of piracy.

With Linux, you can do basically everything that a PC with Linux can do. That means you can run games, use Open Office, surf the web, etc. A lot of things. And you can install new programs and new games if you want. Because remember, Cell is open source.

[Crossbar]

sorry if this has been discussed, but somebody brought my attention to something that got me thinking: a robust OS will need RAM. how can 512 be enough, especially if there will be other tasks like playing games, streaming, etc?
Valid question, I really don't think you will be able to play games and run Firefox (or similar app) simultaneously, most likely you will have two modes, one game mode and one multimedia center mode.

512 MB is plenty for browsing and a lot of different applications, streaming applications need little RAM because they only keep a small part of the data in RAM at any time. The fact that we got a hard-drive means we can swap inactive applications to the hard-drive just like Windows does. Maybe you will be able to swap an active game to the HDD to run Firefox and then swap back, but I think it would be pretty hard to implement that feature.

I bet my ass Bill Gates didn't just frown when he learned about PS3s required HDD with Linux.

[Crossbar]

I just found this comment on Kutaragis speech at B3D:
The exact quote (from 20:30, the audio part before it is probably masked by Famitsu for some reason) is like this.
... then he shows the "HDD is required!" slide. He says Linux is there not to make it like a PC, but for creators and developers.http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29189&page=17

I guess we sholdn't get our hopes up too much, but then again Kutaragi hasn't always told us the whole thuth and "not like a PC" leaves plenty of room for interpretations. :smoke:

[Garfunkel]

\start free advertising for linux

If people wanna get a taste of what linux accually is and what makes it MUCH better than windoze, you can download many distros for FREE, such as ubuntu/kubuntu/mandrake/suse/mepis/damn small etc

\End free advertising for linux.

[Z]

The tools, documentation, and information were not within a thousand stone's throws from what established developers got, which is saying a lot considering that established developers got garbage as far as both PS1 and PS2 were concerned.
I am curious as to how things are with PS3 in this respect? Sony was critisized alot for poor documentation for PS2 (which I still can't figure why would they do such a thing), so how are things with PS3?
and since we are talking about that, why did they screw up with PS2 documentation? I heard some of them weren't even translated to English!

[fos]

hi
sony is telling that they are intending to release linux OS for the PS3
so what to expect from it?
k just check out this link

linux.org/apps/index.html

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Finally I remember these days when Sony released its linux kit for PlayStation2 many of the programs above there weren’t useful because of these applications are designed for the x86 architecture processors (i.e. Pentium series and many others) and the emotion engine for the PS2 is MIPS architecture.
A proper solution for this problem is to emulate such programs using a specially-designed emulator for PS2 or an existing on for (x86 to MIPS) but another problem could appear , the power of PS2 wasn’t any how enough to do such stuff .

So the PS3 has the CELL processor and a very powerful architecture to handle such alike operation or even a more harder operation (maybe emulating Windows XP or that Vista damned thing).

Sorry if my English was hard-to-understand (it is not my native language)

[rpgamer_2k5]

This time there will be many applications specifically for the Cell since STI is really supporting application development. In addition, the PPE will allow the Cell to be compatible with various PPC apps, without SPE support.

[cpiasminc]

I am curious as to how things are with PS3 in this respect? Sony was critisized alot for poor documentation for PS2 (which I still can't figure why would they do such a thing), so how are things with PS3? and since we are talking about that, why did they screw up with PS2 documentation? I heard some of them weren't even translated to English!
I wish there was a satisfying answer for this. There's really no simple "why" they made bad docs or "why" they didn't translate everything. Suffice to say, it wasn't entirely intentional. The docs for PSP, for instance, were far more comprehensive, but even they were loaded with errors and oversimplified a lot of things, and cut out some finer architectural details. And of course, you've got to love those moments where you turn a page and it says "this page is left intentionally blank." The "Sony Paradox" -- is it really blank if you put text on the page that says it's blank?

I can imagine, at least, that PS3 has some borrowed docs from IBM as CELL is still CELL, and some borrowed tools from nVidia. I still won't be seeing it myself for a while yet. I wish I could say that there was anything more to it than simply the fact that Sony is just not good at providing developer toolkits and documentation.

In the case of the PS1, the docs were horrible and incredibly sparse, but the architecture and the APIs were straightforward enough that people could get off the ground easily. Maybe Sony thought they could get away with the same with PS2, but they were very wrong, and a lot of the API libraries that existed for PS1 were not there for PS2, so people had to do it all from scratch.

[Stelio]

LOL....Linux is Open Source, most apps are FREE
Certainly there are "Enterprise Appllications" that will cost you a lot of money, but not many of those apps run on CELL yet, and the only reason they cost is becsue you get support and security patching. And they are no more/less expensive than Professional apps on other operating systems(MAC/Windows)


As you specified, my apps would not be able to run on CELL (yet, if at all).
It's hard to imagine that there would be any future release of one of my apps for PS3. However, once the SONY laptops/desktop systems are released with CELL(s) / RSX (or other) then perhaps companies like Steinberg, Digidesign, Propellerheads, etc. will release versions utilizing their architechture.

What does make sense, however, is that SONY release their own apps written for CELL based systems simply because there is a potential for increased sales. Particularly if there is going to be e-commerce tied into PS3 (which there is).

So the possibility is interesting to say the least.

[Leedogg]

anybody who has the PS2 linux kit,

Can you please tell me if you can run the linux version of teamspeak?

www.goteamspeak.com by the way to download it

[Saibo]

I still think PS3 Linux is full OS, or a full OS HDD well be offer sooner or later. homebrew well happen on the PS3, with or without Sony's help. It did on the PSP.

[cpiasminc]

homebrew well happen on the PS3, with or without Sony's help. It did on the PSP.
Not arguing with that. Piracy, modchipping, etc. will all happen. I'm just saying it's silly to think that Sony would take efforts to make it easier. People are dreaming because the word "Linux" popped up. If anybody remembers the history of UNIX, history is really repeating itself with Linux. There's no reason to assume that Linux by its very nature equals emacs, GNOME, Mozilla, gcc, etc. Any more than Xbox running on a Windows kernel meant Internet Explorer, Word, and Excel...

[wildcardd]

Not arguing with that. Piracy, modchipping, etc. will all happen. I'm just saying it's silly to think that Sony would take efforts to make it easier. People are dreaming because the word "Linux" popped up. If anybody remembers the history of UNIX, history is really repeating itself with Linux. There's no reason to assume that Linux by its very nature equals emacs, GNOME, Mozilla, gcc, etc. Any more than Xbox running on a Windows kernel meant Internet Explorer, Word, and Excel...

Agreed!

[Coded-Dude]

Sony knows what they are doing, I'm sure they realize that the increased potential of hacking is possible via offering Linux on their console, but they have already passed that problem with no real concern - with the Linux for PS2 kit (as already stated)The EULA is the End User License Agreement that must be agreed to when the kit is purchased. This description is not a legal document and end users that purchase the kit will be bound by the actual terms of the EULA that can be found here . The EULA describes two types of software that are provided in the kit. (1) "Software" with a capital "S" which is everything on Disc 1 and (2) "Third Party Software" which is everything on Disc 2.

The EULA restricts what the end user is allowed to do with the materials on Disc 1. They are SCE proprietary contents including copyrighted system manuals and the Runtime Environment (RTE). The EULA says that the end user may not copy or redistribute these materials and may not reverse engineer them or make commercial use of the contents of Disc 1 unless applicable local laws allow such uses.

On Disc 2, there are many software packages under many different software licenses such as the GPL , LGPL , BSD and others . The copyright for the source code is owned by many different organizations and individuals. Each package and piece of source code on Disc 2 should be clearly marked with its applicable license. The EULA says that it is the end user's responsibility to abide by these licenses or return the kit immediately. The EULA does not place any other restrictions on the use of materials on Disc 2. Individual licenses such as the GPL do place restrictions on the use of the software so please read these licenses.

SCE runs a business that brings enjoyment and entertainment to millions of people worldwide. In order to continue the success of PlayStation and to protect our partners that produce software for our platforms, we must restrict some parts of the system to prevent piracy. With Linux (for PlayStation 2) we have taken an unprecedented open stance and released a huge amount of information that was previously proprietary allowing end users to program the system with very few restrictions.EULA TERMS (http://playstation2-linux.com/legal/eula.php)

As someone already stated the PSP was hacked realtively fast, though Sony was able to correct certain "hacks" via firmware updates - which is what they will msot likely do with PS3, as MS has already proven you can't really NOT have patches/updates.....well, you can but you suffer greater corruption within the community.

CPIASMINC - Sony wrote their own proprietary Run Time Environment for PS2 Linux, and I am most certain they will do the same(or somethign similar).....regarding my statement about optical ROM's vs HDD's - It was far easier for people to download a ripped copy of the ROM(via bittorrent/fileshare) and have their own copy of the software. Whereas it wouldn't have been as easy if everything was preloaded within the HDD. You could potentially dd(or some other form of disc copy) the eniter drive and share it out, but this requres a little more expertise than merely ripping and burning a DVD(See comments below). There are most definately ways to restrict end users from access to certain parts of Linux, however if Sony does give out administrative rights(i.e. root) then that won't necessarily help them. For more info on secure Linux visit the NSA (http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/) website. I still have absolutely no doubts Linux will be a full blown OS.

Don't take those simple words("full blown OS") as me meaning it will be a mainstream distro. They may just take a modified kernel thrown in a simple desktop with basic GCC tools, like they did with the Linux for PS2 kit. Most of the available apps were built by regular end-users liek you and me, not proffesionally paid Sony employees/contractors. I would'nt be surprised if Sony decided to use soem of those apps in the PS3 Linux, of course more info is needed before things that specific can be addressed.

Anywho, I will agree that when they say Linux compatible - that could mean any number of things, but I honestly believe it will mean an operating system with mutiple user support and networking features(i.e. runlevel 5 baby!)

Also check out Copy on Write Linux(COW) or User Mode Linux, which are also both possible, but not likely probable....

Anywho, gotta get back to work. I guess we will all have to wait and see what Ken meant(exactly) when he said "LINUX COMPATIBLE"

:cheers:

[EDIT] further reason why pre-loading Linux on the PS3 is more secure than distributing it via CD/DVD....
"The HDD provided in the Linux (for PlayStation 2) kit is based on IDE technology, special changes have been made to the drive for use with the PlayStation 2. Use of the HDD with a PC may cause problems with your PC and may make the HDD inoperable with the PlayStation 2."

[Saibo]

Not arguing with that. Piracy, modchipping, etc. will all happen. I'm just saying it's silly to think that Sony would take efforts to make it easier. People are dreaming because the word "Linux" popped up. If anybody remembers the history of UNIX, history is really repeating itself with Linux. There's no reason to assume that Linux by its very nature equals emacs, GNOME, Mozilla, gcc, etc. Any more than Xbox running on a Windows kernel meant Internet Explorer, Word, and Excel...

Did the PS2 Linux actually help increase piracy? :pope:

I remember reading a article in EEtimes about measures they are taking, measure that the first,second,and third party developers arent in the knew about. Indy developers well be treated the same of course. Im not saying its impossible to crack, but i dont see piracy as a reason not to release some sort of PS3 Linux kit. And the whole notion that indy developed games might take away from commercail software sales is just silly at best, when was the time anyone seen a triple "A" title done by some indy group...

The Linux that comes on the 60 GB HDD as mention by Ken might not be a PS3 Linux kit,but im sure they probably release one sooner or later. What else is the open source community going to run the Cell apps on? A PS3 Linux kit is a perfect cheap solution.

Sony does have a history of support indy developers, as mention before..so i dont see this stoping with the PS3 anytime soon. Until i hear it from the horse mouth itself.

@Crossbar, you can actually run Modo on 512 MB of ram, i ask a couple of people and it seems you can get away with creating game res mesh, so it should be decent for content creation.

[Crossbar]

@Crossbar, you can actually run Modo on 512 MB of ram, i ask a couple of people and it seems you can get away with creating game res mesh, so it should be decent for content creation.I'm not sure which post you are answering to?

I don't think I have said the RAM size would be problem for common apps and it will certainly not be that big problem after we got the HDD to swap to. But I guess for content creation you can never have to much RAM, right? ;-]

[Crossbar]

By searching the board I found some kind of confirmation of my theory of some kind of micro-kernel that Linux will run ontop of. This board is a gold mine, you guys are fantastic!!! :clapping:


...
PS2’s simple boot-up started with firmware, and it loaded the OS and libraries from the disk. In comparison the PS3 starts from “Haipaabaiza” (Hyper-visor?) firmware. Haipaabaiza is a type of VMM (Virtual Machine Manager) software, which runs not on top but under the OS, providing machine virtualization. Even, when using only the Cell OS for gameplay, Haipaabaiza will always start first, and on top of that runs the pre-defined OS (guest OS). The OS, along with Haipaabaiza, creates a two-layer image. This basic OS layering is the same in the PS3 Evaluation System.
original article: http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0722/kaigai199.htm
translation:http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=51460&page=2&highlight=stringer+playstation+fall

[cpiasminc]

Don't take those simple words("full blown OS") as me meaning it will be a mainstream distro. They may just take a modified kernel thrown in a simple desktop with basic GCC tools, like they did with the Linux for PS2 kit.
Again... why would they want to do that? It's one thing on a special kit that a select few can order through Sony, and it's another thing entirely to give that to everybody. What is there to gain by putting GCC on every box? I'm simply saying that "Linux" means nothing more than a kernel that happens to be Linux-based. That makes perfect sense. There is no sense whatsoever in providing compilers and a traditional desktop environment to everybody on the market. The way everybody's talking in the thread as if the MGS4 desktop will be 1:1 exactly what you get... and this finally means that we can run just about any app in the Linux universe just by recompiling the source... Am I the only person who thinks such an idea will never work in practice?

Did the PS2 Linux actually help increase piracy?
Actually, it did. You just have to look in the right countries. In most regions, the PS2 retail unit was out for years and piracy methods had already been established by the time the Linux kit came out. Other regions, the PS2 Linux kit was the only PS2 available.

As long as network connections were there to stream data dumps, it actually made things quite easy. The main difference is that while it was quite possible to modify the driver layer on the Linux kit, that's not the same thing as modifying it on the home console. Now what happens if the Linux kit IS the retail home console?

What else is the open source community going to run the Cell apps on?
Ummm... Cell workstations and servers are actually out there, and they're running full-blown IBM Linux distributions. Beyond that, there's just the fact that a lot of academic research groups are getting them for free.

Bear in mind that as long as PS3 is still a hot product and proper practices are continuing to be established, there won't be a PS3 Linux kit. That's how it was with PS1 and PS2, and that won't change.

Sony does have a history of support indy developers, as mention before..so i dont see this stoping with the PS3 anytime soon.
People have a distorted view of Sony's "support" for indie developers. Try working for one for a few months and see what happens. I'm not saying it will stop, I'm saying I don't see anything changing. Even so, there's a big difference between providing tools for indie developers and providing tools to everybody.

[Coded-Dude]

Again... why would they want to do that?Because they have done it before.....the linux for PS2 kit was available to everybody, but you had to purchase it seperatly.
Granted, it didn't do extremely well in NA so they discontinued it(consider the linux userbase at the time though), but you can still find copies out there. You say WHY, and I say WHYNOT!
But like I said earlier, I am sure we will still both agree to disagree at the end of this conversation. :worthy:

[cpiasminc]

regarding my statement about optical ROM's vs HDD's - It was far easier for people to download a ripped copy of the ROM(via bittorrent/fileshare) and have their own copy of the software. Whereas it wouldn't have been as easy if everything was preloaded within the HDD.
Okay, I think we're not talking about the same thing when it comes to piracy. What I was referring to was not pirating the games themselves, but a method by which to actually get piracy going. I mean that having the tools freely provided to develop software on the box on a hard drive means that you've made things modifiable. That makes it possible to circumvent protection schemes, so that for instance, everybody can run copied discs.

Because they have done it before.....the linux for PS2 kit was available to everybody, but you had to purchase it seperatly.
That purchasing separately, and not being available on the shelves of Wal-mart makes all the difference in the world. That alone helps massively in keeping those kits out of the hands of the immeasurably stupid people (as if there are any other kind).

It's one thing to offer a PS3 Linux kit years later that you can specially buy only through Sony. It's another thing entirely to put it right on store shelves, which is inherently going to be bad.

Again, the thread discussion is leading down the line to suggest that the off-the-shelf unit is the "Linux kit." And that is NOT something they've done before, and not something that will ever make sense to do.

[Crossbar]

Cell + Linux = Official!!!!! Blessed by Torvals himself.

Linux gets built-in Cell processor support

Linus Torvalds released a new Linux kernel Monday that supports features in IBM's Cell processor, includes Oracle software for clustered databases and improves how the open-source operating system runs on multiprocessor systems.

As is customary, Torvalds announced version 2.6.16 on the Linux kernel mailing list Monday.

Linux is technically just a kernel, but the term often is used to refer to the entire operating system built around that kernel. Linux sellers such as Red Hat and Novell use their own variations of the kernel that Torvalds releases at kernel.org, but they generally are reluctant to deviate too far from what amounts to a standard.

The Cell support should mean an easier time for IBM as it tries to encourage people to buy Cell servers later this year. The unusual processor also is used in Sony's upcoming PlayStation 3 game console, but IBM expects it to be used for high-performance computing tasks such as medical image processing as well. Cell has a main PowerPC processing engine supplemented by eight special-purpose cores that run tiny programs of their own.

Programming Cell is tough, but support in Linux could ease the challenges. The new kernel includes the SPU (synergistic programming unit) file system, which lets software control and communicate with the different processor cores.

Cell isn't the only multicore processor where Linux work is taking place. Torvalds accepted a number of patches Tuesday so Linux will run on Sun Microsystems' UltraSparc T1 "Niagara"-based servers, according to David Miller, the lead Linux-on-Sparc programmer, who posted the news on his blog.

The UltraSparc T1 has eight cores. Though it typically runs Sun's Solaris operating system, Sun wants to build support for Linux as well.

The new kernel has the Oracle Cluster File System as well. This software governs how a single pool of data is shared by a group of servers, a crucial element of Oracle efforts to make clusters of low-end computers a viable database alternative to expensive multiprocessor servers.

OCFS version 2 is part of Suse Linux Enterprise Server, but Red Hat has its own open-source alternative, the Global File System. GFS isn't part of the mainline kernel, according to the KernelNewbies site.

Linux is most widely used on low-end computers, but work is still under way to adapt it for large multiprocessor systems. One change in this domain is improvement in how Linux handles NUMA--nonuniform memory access.

Large servers most often divide memory so it's in patches near different processors. An operating system tries to make sure a computing task on one processor uses the nearby memory, but sometimes it needs data from a distant, slower-responding area--thus the term "nonuniform" is used to describe access speeds.

The new kernel can move information stored in memory so it's close to the relevant processor without stopping the process using that memory.

http://news.com.com/Linux+gets+built-in+Cell+processor+support/2100-7344_3-6052314.html

[Goki]

So does this mean a version Optmized for Cell ?

[jaxmkii]

Could the purpose of the OS on ps3 be related to the "cell network"?

[Crossbar]

So does this mean a version Optmized for Cell ?
Short answer: Yes.

It basically means that you can compile to binaries that uses specific features of the Cell CPU and simply run Linux on a Cell CPU.

This is really good news, that it actually is released in an official version. This means that it should be a stable version, probably not extremely optimised, but stable, as this is a major concern when new kernels are released by Linus.