Backwards compatibility - waste of f'in time

[CARTIER90]

Well the thread title says it all, after GT3, GT2 seemed like a joke. Dont tell me you will play old games, you may once....anyhow....(i actually changed my mind and posted this accidently...apologies)
What harm is it if its there I suppose !..........

[venomv]

I played tons of PS1 games on my PS2, I will play tons of PS2 and PS1 games on my PS3 so no, not a wait of time.

[Smokey]

no its not a waste i cant wait to play mgs off ps1 in a higher resolution as they reckon.

[VG Aficionado]

I'm really looking forward to playing many of my PS2 games on PS3 with improvements. I'm also eager to play a few of my PS1 games and see the difference.

All three next generation consoles are backwards compatible. There has to be a good reason for this, you know.

[stanDarsh]

Well supposedly you'll be able to play older games at higher resolutions, so I'm all for that, if that's true. And then there is playing all those games I never found time to play this generation, sure I'll still probably never get round to playing, but at least the machine is able to, should I change my mind.

[xbdestroya]

Well, not a waste for me - I'll be playing the PS2 games for some time to come for sure.

[cliffbo]

when a family grows, do we ignore te first born in favour of the youngest or do we rely on the experience of the eldest to help guide the young? backward compatability is essential for rounded develpement.

[Sebastiano]

Not a waste for me either.
Before a good sequel (or prequel) is released on a new generation console, I like to go back and play through the previous installments (like MSG1, 2, 3)
Maybe there aren't too many good sequels out there, but I also like the idea that I have the option to dig up some old time hits and play them whenever I want without having to dust off my old PS1 or 2.

[rpgamer_2k5]

That claim is not universal. It's not a waste of time for me nor is it for the majority that has posted on this thread. I will be playing a bunch of PSX games on my PS3. Probably Wild Arms 2, Thousand Arms, Vanguard Bandits Vagrant Story, and a bunch of other ones. BC will be well employed, just like BC for the PS2.

[cliffbo]

with the retro-game market expanding, i fail to see how anyone can bemoan backward compatability!

[HolyPaladin]

I never even owned a PSX (PS1), so I bought a few PSX games like Final Fantasy VII, XIII, and IX, just in case I wanted to play them on my PS2. I do still play older, classic games on occasion, and still have my NES, SNES, and N64 hooked up right next to my newer consoles. Lots of gamers, at least the hardcore ones that have been gaming for many years, still appreciate the older stuff.

[RavenFox]

That claim is not universal. It's not a waste of time for me nor is it for the majority that has posted on this thread. I will be playing a bunch of PSX games on my PS3. Probably Wild Arms 2, Thousand Arms, Vanguard Bandits Vagrant Story, and a bunch of other ones. BC will be well employed, just like BC for the PS2.
Show this man some love people. That game owns everything else.

[Tael]

Backwards compatibility is not a waste of time, many people will want to play their PS1 and PS2 games on their PS3s.

[jaxmkii]

the #1 game i look forward to playing on my PS3 is FFXII so yes BC is a keything for me... and it will be nice to play GT4 in 1080i mode without the frame rate studders

san adreas, ALL the ace combats, @ 1080i

just cause you dont use it don't mean its a F*&^% waste of time

[cliffbo]

heres a poll:http://polls.gawker.com/?key==YDN2ITM&voted=1
contribute if you wish:http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/poll/why-do-you-play-old-games-161790.php

[Pro A.]

Backwards compatibility is one of the greatest ideas ever. I love getting to play all my PS1 and PS2 games, some of which are the greatest games of all time.

[Sevin]

i think with the ps3 ill be more motivated to play my ps1/2 games because i will want ll my save game data on my ps3. im pretty sure there will be no ps1/2 memory card slot so thats reason enough to play the games there for me. ill be playing stuff like zoe2, god of war 1/2, kingdom hearts and many others im sure. plus if they add the download of psx games to the harddrive i will definatly download some based on how much they are. xenogears for sure.. ive always wanted to play that but could never find it anywhere.

[cliffbo]

i think with the ps3 ill be more motivated to play my ps1/2 games because i will want ll my save game data on my ps3. im pretty sure there will be no ps1/2 memory card slot so thats reason enough to play the games there for me. ill be playing stuff like zoe2, god of war 1/2, kingdom hearts and many others im sure. plus if they add the download of psx games to the harddrive i will definatly download some based on how much they are. xenogears for sure.. ive always wanted to play that but could never find it anywhere.

don't forget improved res and textures (possible)

[Theo]

I never even owned a PSX (PS1), so I bought a few PSX games like Final Fantasy VII, XIII, and IX, just in case I wanted to play them on my PS2. I do still play older, classic games on occasion, and still have my NES, SNES, and N64 hooked up right next to my newer consoles. Lots of gamers, at least the hardcore ones that have been gaming for many years, still appreciate the older stuff.


Oh yes! I have been gaming long enough to really appreciate the older stuff and because of that being able to play psone and ps2 games with a ps3 is important to me. No waste of time there. The word "appreciate" does not make justice to some tittles though, as I feel that especially the rpgs in general used to be better in the past and some tittles from other genres as well... Ya know, I still play FFV and FFVI every now and then, great games really :).

[Sevin]

don't forget improved res and textures (possible)

will all games have this? some people were talking about playing thier games in 1080i but isnt that only if the game already has it built in. also will the ps3 help keep fps up to par. one of my favorite games is zoe2 and i have to say it did have so slow down issues. i would assume ps3 will change that. i cant wait to play that on my ps3.

[Z]

another thing that may not have been mentioned; b/c is not only good for playing your PS2/PSOne games or playing them with improved visuals, one of the strongest reasons is to play the new block busters coming on PS2 and continuing your current favorites. games like Ace Combat Zero, God of War 2 and FF12 will release after PS3. well, not everyone will keep his PS2. many will give it to a younger family member or sell it. I will be up scaling my breath taking FF12 incredible CG movies!

also, b/c is very important in a new system's beginning. there won't be many games on it. you will be able to play literally thousands of PS2 and PSOne games on it. if you don't want to, just don't use the feature. it will be given to you for practically free, so why complain?

[Smokey]

will all games have this? some people were talking about playing thier games in 1080i but isnt that only if the game already has it built in. also will the ps3 help keep fps up to par. one of my favorite games is zoe2 and i have to say it did have so slow down issues. i would assume ps3 will change that. i cant wait to play that on my ps3.
yes i would like to know as well because even mgs2 has some framerate issues. and im presuming that they will all be in atleast 720p to the screen because it should be the default res on the ps3..right?? as xbox is.

[VG Aficionado]

Should there be any problem to display PS1 and PS2 games in 1080i/p formats with more improvements, even though the games weren't originally designed with that resolution and format in mind? Will vertical black bars for upscaled 4:3 format be required?

[Smokey]

yeah thats another one vg will the ps3 add the vertical black bars for the older 4:3 games. because the ps2 dont.

[cliffbo]

Should there be any problem to display PS1 and PS2 games in 1080i/p formats with more improvements, even though the games weren't originally designed with that resolution and format in mind? Will vertical black bars for upscaled 4:3 format be required?

yes of course they will but it doesn't matter. unless your one of these people who put everything in widescreen so that all the characters in games/films look like they weight like 20 stone lol. boarders are fine by me.

[cpiasminc]

don't forget improved res and textures (possible)
Resolution is one thing, but textures? How do you mean improved? The original source data stored on the disc is low-res 256-color textures to begin with. You're not going to be able to just magically create new detail. You certainly have to convert them up to higher color depth, and you can smooth out the banding in a preprocess, but that's about it.

Should there be any problem to display PS1 and PS2 games in 1080i/p formats with more improvements, even though the games weren't originally designed with that resolution and format in mind?
There may be a number of problems associated with games that ran at non-standard resolutions. It was very common to run across PS2 titles that ran at 512x448. However, in cases like that, the issue was CRT overscan, so you can assume that the intended aspect ratio was still 4:3.

There are just weirder cases like 1 team that overloaded the scan microcode during in-game cinematics so they could get a widescreen letterbox-look, and they fixed it so that it ran at 608x312. And the weird thing is that they stuffed the scancodes to stuff dummy data for a full 525 lines, so on an HDTV, you may end up seeing this weird black single pixel off in the corner, but it would be hidden on a CRT.

[cliffbo]

Resolution is one thing, but textures? How do you mean improved? The original source data stored on the disc is low-res 256-color textures to begin with. You're not going to be able to just magically create new detail. You certainly have to convert them up to higher color depth, and you can smooth out the banding in a preprocess, but that's about it.


There may be a number of problems associated with games that ran at non-standard resolutions. It was very common to run across PS2 titles that ran at 512x448. However, in cases like that, the issue was CRT overscan, so you can assume that the intended aspect ratio was still 4:3.

There are just weirder cases like 1 team that overloaded the scan microcode during in-game cinematics so they could get a widescreen letterbox-look, and they fixed it so that it ran at 608x312. And the weird thing is that they stuffed the scancodes to stuff dummy data for a full 525 lines, so on an HDTV, you may end up seeing this weird black single pixel off in the corner, but it would be hidden on a CRT.

i'm certainly not as technically minded as yourself but didn't the PS2 use blending techniques to improve the look of PS1 games? surely some games like DMC which look like they have no antialianasing (think i spelt that right) could be improved in a similar way?

[Dralor]

Well as you can see in emulators. You can force bilinear and improve colordepth. You could also use aa in some but af is useless at least on PS1 games. 3D looks really nice though 2D suffers a bit because of it.

[cpiasminc]

i'm certainly not as technically minded as yourself but didn't the PS2 use blending techniques to improve the look of PS1 games? surely some games like DMC which look like they have no antialianasing (think i spelt that right) could be improved in a similar way?
I haven't heard of any major visual improvements of PS1 games on the PS2. It's possible, though, that things like bilinear/trilinear texture filtering were enabled in PS2, which didn't exist in PS1. That doesn't really "improve" the texture, though -- if anything, it can often make it blurrier. Anisotropic filtering is about the only texture filtering you can do on PS3 that you couldn't on PS2, but that only makes a difference on large polys viewed at shallow angles. Doesn't do much of anything anywhere else. The idea of antialiasing previously non-AA games on the PS3 is somewhat feasible, though.

I think the hardest part of emulating PS2, though, is just that matter of the way things are done on the PS2. Multiple single-textured passes with complex blends as well as some framebuffer copy accumulation... all that was basically bread and butter on the PS2. On modern hardware, it's generally a very bad idea as it just eats through fillrate and bandwidth like a b@#&h. Even the Xenos with all that's touted about its eDRAM still has only 2/3 the framebuffer bandwidth of PS2, and it's going to be rendering at much higher resolution.

[cliffbo]

I haven't heard of any major visual improvements of PS1 games on the PS2. It's possible, though, that things like bilinear/trilinear texture filtering were enabled in PS2, which didn't exist in PS1. That doesn't really "improve" the texture, though -- if anything, it can often make it blurrier. Anisotropic filtering is about the only texture filtering you can do on PS3 that you couldn't on PS2, but that only makes a difference on large polys viewed at shallow angles. Doesn't do much of anything anywhere else. The idea of antialiasing previously non-AA games on the PS3 is somewhat feasible, though.

I think the hardest part of emulating PS2, though, is just that matter of the way things are done on the PS2. Multiple single-textured passes with complex blends as well as some framebuffer copy accumulation... all that was basically bread and butter on the PS2. On modern hardware, it's generally a very bad idea as it just eats through fillrate and bandwidth like a b@#&h. Even the Xenos with all that's touted about its eDRAM still has only 2/3 the framebuffer bandwidth of PS2, and it's going to be rendering at much higher resolution.

wow i'm impressed... but still none the wiser lol. guess i'll have to read more books. yes some games did look blurry but MGS looked a lot better IMO :)

[Smokey]

yeah i didnt notice any visual improvement in ps1 games on me ps2. but the ps3 could be a different kettle o fish.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

well, considering that the ps2 library will not necessarily end until 2010, it's not a waste of time at all. You can get a ps3, trade in your ps2 towards it, and not lose the investment of that big ps2 back catalog you may have. And ps2 did accelerate psone game texture mapping and/or speed up load times on games if you wanted. I noticed it easily enough. Just load some texture heavy game like vagrant story or mgs. You do have to turn the options on though (on ps2)

[rpgamer_2k5]

If the PS3 could improve PSX games like the Bleemcast emulator, I will be really satisfied. The PS3 shouldn't have any problems have features that surpass the Bleemcast emulator.

For PS2 play-back, AA, anisotropic filtering and higher resolutions is good enough. I have a feeling that the PS3 may be featuring eDRAM or at least have 4MB of eDRAM for BC.

[GUNDAMSEED]

If i get my way i wll be playing FF12 on ps3 not ps2.

PLUS ZOE 2 IN 720,1080 or 1080 IS GOING TO RULE.

[Junox50]

I don't understand the point. Not everyone agrees that backwards compatibility is a waste of time. I still play my Megaman X 4, 5, and six games. I still go to the gamestore and pick up old classics that I missed during the PS1 era.

When PS3 rolls around, I'll still be playing my PS2 games on it, that is until the next sequal comes out, hee hee. But still, I'd play the original as well.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

The point for me is, you don't have to have a console sitting in your closet collecting dust, you can get a decent return on it, and have your latest console play all those other games you invested in. Paintings don't become obsolete when a new one comes out. This allows games to last because they're still playable on the latest technology.

[kaphwan]

I'm giving my ps2 to my little brother when I get a ps3.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I don't have any younger siblings, only 2 older sisters. And I sure as heck wouldn't give anyone my ps2 for free.
And I never get tired of your avatar.

Aahhhhh Rekkuzan!!!!

[kaphwan]

Sad that it's a cutaway of the only good Eiji picture I have ever found.

[Smokey]

my daughter will be getting my ps2. shes happy about it.

[Mitri]

if backwards compatibility wasn't important then why is SONy and Nintendo going to have their back catalog online for download? because its very important. at the begining of a consoles life cycle(since the snes because there really wasn't nothing before that. lol.) backwards compat. adds thousands of games to a day old console. and the devs don't stop working on the past because the new is here. it takes a while. so for those early adopters the past is all they have.(ya understand?) and in the ps2's case the past/present will be here until 2010. alot of games can be released between now and then.

[Sephiroth_VII]

Also, remember the improved draw distance, AND loading times. The last one will make FFXII even more killa!!!

[VG Aficionado]

I really don't think we'll see greater draw distance, game code would need to be changed for that.

My wish list:

- AA, AF and any other feasible pre/postprocessing to the greatest extent.
- Steady (25-30fps, 50-60fps depending on every case) or steadier frame rates, if possible.
- Progressive scan for every game, if possible.

I'd include HD resolutions, but these are confirmed. Shorter loading times should be a given.

[venomv]

Improved framerates will be very simple wouldn't it, if at any time during the game they normally fall below the games norm.

[Helios]

Im a man who likes options, even if I dont use them. Backwards compatibility is great just for the sake of having the option to play some old games. But me personally Im not going to end up using it very much with some exceptions like God of War or GTA, even then its only going to be until a PS3 version comes along.

Just like when I first bought PS2 i'll play some old games till the good batch of good ones come along.

[Z]

can frame rates be altered on PS3? aren't they programed/fixed?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

No, I'm pretty sure framerates are fixed. If the slowdown isn't programmed out in the design phases I'm almost certain you're stuck. I mean, consider that there are plenty of games that don't take advantage of even PS2's power, which have slowdown. The PS2 had the potential to run that software smoothly but it won't do what the programmers haven't told it to do. Maybe if the ps3 was self aware and decided to step in and say, 'hey! let's kick this puppy into high gear! shazzaaam!'


haha think about that. Self aware game consoles. PS4, runs on a neuro-net learning computer. One of the features includes: The ability to sense when you're about to trade it in for a competitor system, then plots your murder.

[F089/H]

No..even though I never had a PS1.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

No..even though I never had a PS1.
what are you talking about

[Z]

the thread title. lol

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Man, he's breakin the continuity of the discussion. *shakes fist*

[indiekid4]

Hell Yah! Parapa The Rapper HD! can i get a woot woot!

[LaLiLuLeLo]

You gotta believe!

[Z]

with real-time surround sound! ;p

[Red_Eyes]

No matter how great graphics get, PS1 rpgs are still the best.

[yoshaw]

Backwards compatibility rules. It's one of the many reasons why people shell extra to get the next big thing instead of the current-gen stuff(since current gen is playable because of B/C on the new hardware now). Also one of the many reasons Sony utilized against Dreamcast to make it look outdated and underpowered compared to the PS2. B/C was a trendsetter move and look where it is leading us today. Nintendo has announced a library full of downloadable catalogue of their popular old games. Same with sony and same with Xbox Live arcade.

Backward Compatibility has also helped us realize that we're a different form of medium in the entertainment arena. That respects its legacy software unlike Movies that just throw out the concepts once you're done watching em if not completely trash them. So that's another plus. I think B/C taught the industry a lot in terms of what they might have been missing in the next-generation of games. It might have made them realize that regardless of the graphics and wow factor, the fun in games is still the most sought after factor. And that they must not forget that.

Sorry for the rant.

[Z]

since PS3 will most likely allow for PSOne game downloads too, here is more good news:

when asked at GDC, Ninty said the deals with Sega for bringing Genesis classics to their network wasn't exclusive. that means we could very well see the same offerings on both PS3 and X2!

[Helios]

Backward Compatibility has also helped us realize that we're a different form of medium in the entertainment arena. That respects its legacy software unlike Movies that just throw out the concepts once you're done watching em if not completely trash them.

The hell are you talking about? I see far more respect and replayability shown towards classic movies than I have ever seen of video games, and its much more widespead as well not just by those "in" the industry or some critic.

Lets face facts the movie industry is not the same as the game industry in terms of replay factor. I can easily see myself watching a mediocre movie over again but a mediocre game is simply a waste of time. Or hell any game for that matter, once you play through a game thats pretty much it unless there's some online or multiplayer. Its great we have nostalgic feelings for super mario and other old games of the past but unless you do nothing but play video games how many times are you realistically going to play mario again? slim to none.

Heh and throwing out concepts? please, the themes in Shakespear's Hamlet are still present in a lot of films and literature today. But how many games still have you hopping on enemies or side scrolling? none because they're old and redudant attridutes. The only reason we still actualy like the old side scrollers like sonic is because they have a nostalgic factor and the mind of a 7 year old is too underdeveloped to care how simplistic it is. Even newer games are no exception, game concepts get old pretty fast regardless of the genre or date. Think im wrong? If I were we would still be playing FPS's no better than the original Doom or race sims on the level of Grand Prix Challenge.

[CARTIER90]

Well 57 views contradictory to mine !!!, mmmmh I have never played a PS1 one game on the PS2 , simply because PS2 game have more depth, look better and last longer.

Though I have to say, If I find PS2 games going for bargain basement prices, Id be tempted...

[jumbo]

On the topic of backwards compatability. I have just picked a brand new Chrono Cross (PSX) for $18. It is I believe the highest rated RPG for PSX and the only one my collection has been missing.

Anyone know if this game works on the PS2?

The game itself, is it as good as they say? I love Japanese RPG and I'm dying to playing something of that nature.

Thanks! Pz out.

[venomv]

On the topic of backwards compatability. I have just picked a brand new Chrono Cross (PSX) for $18. It is I believe the highest rated RPG for PSX and the only one my collection has been missing.

Anyone know if this game works on the PS2?

The game itself, is it as good as they say? I love Japanese RPG and I'm dying to playing something of that nature.

Thanks! Pz out.

It was really good for awhile, but then I got bored and never finished it, but I think I played it on my PS2.

And Cartier, that depend on what kinda games you like, I'm an RPG gamer, and I think FF7, Tactics, FF8, FF9, Vagrant Story, Parasite Eve, and a lot of others have tons more depth and replayability then most PS2 games, lol, all those where Squaresoft games, there are other, I just can't remember many PS1 games that I love that didn't come from them........and Twisted Metal 2-4.

[rpgamer_2k5]

Persona 1/2, Wild Arms 1/2, Vanguard Bandits, Breath of Fire III/IV, Lunar SSSC/EB, Thousand Arms, Star Ocean 2, Valkyrie Profile, Dragon Quest VII (best selling RPG on the PSX in Japan), Brigandine, Koudelka, Megaman Legends 1/2, and a many more great non-Squaresoft RPGs. :)

[venomv]

I hated Wlld Arms, and I never played the rest of those so I couldn't say them, I did forget about Legend of Dragoon though.

[jumbo]

wow, nice list.

I LOVED Legend of Dragoon. Great game although bashed by the major sites.. ???

[n1n9tean]

PS2 BC will hold up ALOT better than PS1 BC did. We will still be able to interpret what going on when we go back and play a PS2 game. But trying to play old PS1 games sometimes feels like looking for corn in vomit.

[Danji Ikari]

An odd analogy, but it works.

[curryking1]

wow, nice list.

I LOVED Legend of Dragoon. Great game although bashed by the major sites.. ???

Legend of Dragoon! Oh man, I loved that game as well. It wasn't the best game, but it had this feeling about it I cannot explain and it just made me want to play the game more and more. It got 6.4 on Gamespot.com btw... lol.

I can't remember anything about that game except that the main character wore red armour! And the basic attack system was this multihit timed hit thing like Renzokuken in FF VIII (just not as flashy lol). I would love to play that game again, even if it will be on my shiny new PS3. :)

P.S. Does anyone remember Legend of Legaia? The first one? Similar to Legend of Dragoon, it wasn't a great game at all (not near bad though) but it also had this inexplicable atmosphere that made me love the game...

Sadly I never finished either game... unfinished games, even more reason people to have B/C on the PS3 lol.

P.P.S. Maybe we can see another Legend of Dragoon game (very wishful thinking)! The IP is owned by Sony so maybe one day they'll decide to revive it...

P.P.P.S. Chrono Cross will be the first game I test for PS1 B/C on my PS2... well after FF VII of course haha :)