MS says: '1080p impossible'

[cliffbo]

Exclusive: MS on 1080p, BluRay, Expansion

Director of Microsoft's Game Technology Group speaks to Kikizo on future direction for the Xbox 360 and more.

As Microsoft this week announces its latest development initiatives at GDC, we caught up with the company's Director of the Game Technology Group (formerly ATG), Scott Henson. You can watch the full 20-minute video interview feature here, but here are the highlights:

A down-to-earth Xbox exec who knows Xbox 360's finer technical points and the overall strategy as well as anyone, Henson shared with us details on system upgradeability, and where things are headed in the 'HD era' of gaming.

You may remember our recent PS3 feature in which the reality of 'Full HD' 1080p games for the console was thrown into some doubt. Scott openly offered his opinion, stating: "I think 1080p, just to address that directly, will be basically impossible. I think if you talk to any developer they will tell you that they will not have a performing game at 1080p."

Scott Henson, Director, Game Technology Group, Microsoft
So is 1080p destined to be a standard purely for a tiny minority of Full HD owning movie fanatics? "Whenever you make a series of bets about technology transition you have to find the centre of gravity; where's going to be that 'sweet spot' for the next generation? We looked at all entertainment - movies, television, games, and the television sets themselves worldwide over the next decade, and 720p and 1080i is absolutely going to be the sweet spot.

"Of course every game is HD enabled from the get-go, but [developers] are going to get more and more out of the processor and out of the graphics chip as time goes on, as they get more familiar with multi-threaded programming and multicore architecture. Games are just going to get better and better."

Meanwhile in HD land, the recent announcement of the HD-DVD add on for Xbox 360 has not exactly set the world on fire, judging by polls (including one of 1,009 voters on this site in which 75.52% say they would not but the add-on, 14.27% say they will, and 9.91% remain undecided). So how exactly does Microsoft intend to make the device a success? "This is like any conversation we'd ever have about any technology," says Scott, "it will all come down to content."

"There's going to have to be some compelling content that's available for HD-DVD [just as] there's got to be compelling content available for whatever game consoles that come out. There's also a compatibility factor... I think one of the lynchpins for the next generation is going to be the compatibility for your existing library... that's another thing that HD-DVD has going for it. If you sum all that stuff up, I think HD-DVD is going to do quite well."

But what if Sony's BluRay format wins the next-gen movie war? Could we still see a BRD add-on for Xbox 360, or maybe even a combo drive? Henson pipes up, "I wanna make sure everyone understands this! The system itself is architected so that we can continue to add components over time. Could we do that kind of stuff technically? Yeah. But have we announced anything, no - high definition movie formats is going to be a really interesting thing to watch objectively - and we'll be ready to adapt to what consumers want." He also clarified, just for our own satisfaction, that "HD-DVD the accessory is for movie playback only" - no gamers will be alienated by Microsoft putting games on HD-DVD.

Another area that some of us found initially a little disappointing about Xbox 360 were small elements of the system's front end, Guide. Will the company seek to improve disappointing features like the music player? "The short answer is yes, we have the ability to upgrade that. There are all kinds of feature requests that have come in. One of the top requested features is the ability to download from Marketplace in the 'background'. So we're looking at, and prioritising, that list of requests. So yes, the capability is there."

Furthermore, the fact that video media can only be streamed if you have the Media Center Edition of XP, was another bone of contention. "Are we looking at streaming [the user's video content] from [non-MCE] Windows XP systems in the future? That's one of those list of features that we're looking at right now, and figuring out where it fits in the overall priority scheme. I am not going to commit to anything specific, but I think what you're going to see in the coming months and year is us add more and more capability for both Windows XP systems, as well as Media Center Editions."

He added: "It's space and time; we built a lot of stuff into this console, and you have to test it and ship it - it's a lot of stuff! We'll continue to evolve it, I promise."

And hot games for 2006? Apart from obvious titles like Gears of War, Henson offers: "I think [Viva Piñata] is such a unique game and has such unique play elements - and I think people will be very surprised at what we're doing with its Live implementation. There will be a lot of discussion about that. And of course, people always seem to want to know what Bungie is up to, so I'm sure there will be a lot of discussion about that [in 2006] as well."

In the full video interview, we challenge Microsoft on Windows Vista conspiracy theories, their official line regarding competitor influences, and the infamous iPod compatibility issue. Other answers to questions including, why the likes of Team Ninja pulling out so much more from Xbox 360 than many other developers, plus striking, newly updated performance stats for Xbox Live, are also included. Check it out here

but obviously they will be supporting Blu-ray in the furure. talk about wanting your cake and eat it.
this all smacks of last minute madness because of a lack of commitment on whch HD format to support.

[xbdestroya]

Well, what else would they say?

[VG Aficionado]

Wouldn't it have been funny that they said they were critical?

"Everyone should own 1080p displays and Blu-ray support must be mandatory so that their PCs will be able to run Windows Vista" - MS representative (on drugs).

"There's going to have to be some compelling content that's available for HD-DVD [just as] there's got to be compelling content available for whatever game consoles that come out. There's also a compatibility factor... I think one of the lynchpins for the next generation is going to be the compatibility for your existing library... that's another thing that HD-DVD has going for it. If you sum all that stuff up, I think HD-DVD is going to do quite well."Is that the best thing they have to say about HD-DVD? Blu-ray has that and more! And no next generation console is going to feature an HD-DVD drive for gaming purposes.

[Loc]

That reminds me, the Xbox360 could benefit greatly from a lot of mult-tasking capabilities, same with the PS3

[cliffbo]

just which dev teams said that they wouldn't support it. bet it wasn't Sony of gorilla. Microsoft are going to get the shock of their lives.

[jaxmkii]

MS... grabing for straws?

[cliffbo]

MS... grabing for straws?

overall this shows how Sony has them rattled.

[RavenFox]

lol enjoy the ownage Microsoft.

[Tael]

What do they mean by 1080p impossible? Do they mean that tv screens can't be viewed at that resolution?

[RavenFox]

What do they mean by 1080p impossible? Do they mean that tv screens can't be viewed at that resolution?
Their saying the PS3 cannot produce it but they will eat their words in the future as usual. Gaming on PC has reached 1080p visuals for quite sometime.

[cliffbo]

What do they mean by 1080p impossible? Do they mean that tv screens can't be viewed at that resolution?

its wishful thinking and an attempt to dilute the excitement that 360 owners might suddenly get when PS3 is finally released. i can see slow sales ahead for Microsoft.

[VG Aficionado]

Allard once said that gamers "don't need games running at framerates higher than movie framerates", meaning between 24 and 30 frames per second. Now Microsoft staff tell us again that "if we can't offer a better thing, it's not feasible and customers don't need it either because they won't tell the difference".

Those are just funny ways to say that their products can't be better than the competition's.

[jaxmkii]

^^^ when they no longer have the power advantage suddenly its not importaint anymore. or as they some how try to paint it a disadvantage

[cliffbo]

^^^ when they no longer have the power advantage suddenly its not importaint anymore. or as they some how try to paint it a disadvantage

pithy and completely accurate.

[Sebastiano]

MS knows that their system cannot support 1080P, and their are trying to convince the average joe that it is not necessary :snooze:

If a current high end Gaming PC can pull off 1080 no problem, I don't see how the PS3(Cell+RSX) can not :shrug:

I wonder what other excuse MS will come up with next to prove that their console is better

[Theo]

^^^ when they no longer have the power advantage suddenly its not importaint anymore. or as they some how try to paint it a disadvantage


That's what I was thinking as well.

...About the 1080p thing: To be honest, I'm not expecting to see many games at that resolution especially in the beginning, but I would not say it is impossible. We'll play games running at 1080p on ps3 sooner or later IMO. And ps3 is well capable of 1080p resolution, it is a known fact...

[lips]

Funny, as I play games today at 1920x1200 on my 6600gt card. This is hardly high end.

[cliffbo]

its funny if you think about it. they indroduced the 'HD era' phrase and then rescind on it. they said they would have a HD-DVD add on and now suggest they will support both (thats two in your drawer lol). they boldly big up Live and then get trumped at the last minute. and then they realise what the PSP was actually for and announce a handheld. and now their talking about opening Live up. lol it is funny.

[xbdestroya]

I don't know, I honestly think the 1080p thing won't be too big a deal for quite some time to come; Microsoft is totally justified in pointing to 1080p and Blu-ray and saying 'waste of time.' Sony is including these features for other reasons; to provide a boost to the consumer electronics end of things.

Not that they're not nice mind you - PS3 *will* be my BD player - it's just that from a gaming perspective they're kin dof superfluous in a way, though BD has security advantages against piracy and obviously a large size advantage.

lol XB thats so darn pedantic though. 'basically impossible' is just a generic phrase like 'potentially brilliant' it means nothing out of context. but everything in context. he said 'impossible' :) is there such thing as 'complicatedly impossible'? no of course not. don't underestimate Sony either XB, i would imagine that they are already hard at work on such a game. and URT can run on higher res on PC.

Well, it's exactly like saying 'potentially brilliant;' it's a non-comment trying to convey a certain tone - in this case negativity. But what do I care if an MS rep is trying to cast some of PS3's features in a superfluous light? Certainly doesn't effect me in the least.

All I'm saying is that I agree that devs would be better off targeting 720p than 1080p - the majority of consumers would benefit much more greatly from this.

[cliffbo]

I don't know, I honestly think the 1080p thing won't be too big a deal for quite some time to come; Microsoft is totally justified in pointing to 1080p and Blu-ray and saying 'waste of time.' Sony is including these features for other reasons; to provide a boost to the consumer electronics end of things.

Not that they're not nice mind you - PS3 *will* be my BD player - it's just that from a gaming perspective they're kin dof superfluous in a way, though BD has security advantages against piracy and obviously a large size advantage.

xb but they actually say 1080p is 'impossible' thats desparation.

[Coded-Dude]

Microsoft is totally justified in pointing to 1080p and Blu-ray and saying 'waste of time.'
Yes btu thye are not jsut saying waste of tiem, they are saying impossible.......which is of course rediculous!
Anywho, I really don't care what MS says or doesn't say about what Sony does or doesn't do.

[xbdestroya]

Well... yeah it *is* total FUD to be saying that it's impossible - still though if you look at the words used:

"I think 1080p, just to address that directly, will be basically impossible. I think if you talk to any developer they will tell you that they will not have a performing game at 1080p."

They're not saying it's *actually* impossible so much as saying it's completely impractical, thus will never be used for 'real' games.

And I partially agree; a game running 1080p vs 720p, the one at 720p will be able to have many more effects and such on screen vs the 1080p game. The only reason to go 1080p would be for a game that is not otherwise too demanding of the GPU - like that MMORPG SOE is developing (they said 1080p, right?).

Now if 1080p sets proliferate in the future, we may see more devs start to target it, but until then indeed 720p/1080i is going to be the target resolution for the vast majority of devs.

[Coded-Dude]

yes and the counter to that has already been stated:
Funny, as I play games today at 1920x1200 on my 6600gt card. This is hardly high end.

[cliffbo]

Well... yeah it *is* total FUD to be saying that it's impossible - still though if you look at the words used:

"I think 1080p, just to address that directly, will be basically impossible. I think if you talk to any developer they will tell you that they will not have a performing game at 1080p."

They're not saying it's *actually* impossible so much as saying it's completely impractical, thus will never be used for 'real' games.

And I partially agree; a game running 1080p vs 720p, the one at 720p will be able to have many more effects and such on screen vs the 1080p game. The only reason to go 1080p would be for a game that is not otherwise too demanding of the GPU - like that MMORPG SOE is developing (they said 1080p, right?).

Now if 1080p sets proliferate in the future, we may see more devs start to target it, but until then indeed 720p/1080i is going to be the target resolution for the vast majority of devs.

lol XB thats so darn pedantic though. 'basically impossible' is just a generic phrase like 'potentially brilliant' it means nothing out of context. but everything in context. he said 'impossible' :) is there such thing as 'complicatedly impossible'? no of course not. don't underestimate Sony either XB, i would imagine that they are already hard at work on such a game. and URT can run on higher res on PC.

[frosty]

I think if you talk to any developer they will tell you that they will not have a performing game at 1080p."


I find that quite ammusing because there are already devs coming out that say their games will hit 1080p with full 7.1 surround. Something is telling me the boys at polyphony digital will pull a 1080p trick from their sleeve as well.

[xbdestroya]

yes and the counter to that has already been stated:

But... what games are we talking about? And at what levels of detail? I know the 6600GT very well, and I assure you it could run UT2004 at that resolution just fine, but it's not running FEAR at that resolution - know what I'm saying?

lol XB thats so darn pedantic though. 'basically impossible' is just a generic phrase like 'potentially brilliant' it means nothing out of context. but everything in context. he said 'impossible' :) is there such thing as 'complicatedly impossible'? no of course not. don't underestimate Sony either XB, i would imagine that they are already hard at work on such a game. and URT can run on higher res on PC.

Well, it's exactly like saying 'potentially brilliant;' it's a non-comment trying to convey a certain tone - in this case negativity. But what do I care if an MS rep is trying to cast some of PS3's features in a superfluous light? Certainly doesn't effect me in the least.

All I'm saying is that I agree that devs would be better off targeting 720p than 1080p - the majority of consumers would benefit much more greatly from this.

[cliffbo]

All I'm saying is that I agree that devs would be better off targeting 720p than 1080p - the majority of consumers would benefit much more greatly from this.

i agree that %99 of games will be 720 or 1080i but that percentage will collate to a lot of games as more games are released. i just see an issue with the impossible claim. its just so stupid saying that and i believe it will bite him where it hurts when a game at 1080p arrives. :)

[MasaC]

Basically impossible to have performing games at 1920x1080, eh?

Pfft! I've been playing performing games at 1600x1200 on my PC for quite some time now and that's just shy of the 2 million pixels 1920x1080 gives you. I fully expect the PS3 to surpass my PC.

[frosty]

Nope, that wasn't a typo. Untold Legends (originally the online action RPG for the PSP) has been designated a launch title and it will support the brand, spanking new audio format of 7.1 according to the announcement that accompanied the launch of the Untold Legends website. Currently, no movies or games support 7.1, but the advent of Blu-ray and HD DVD is hoping to change that.

However, it is a little strange that the game is going to support an audio format that no receivers are currently able to handle. Hopefully, a sound system that supports 7.1 will be released in time for the PS3's launch.

While not much is known about the game at the moment, developer T3 has said that the game will be presented in 1080p (although the official website says 1080i), and that the online portion is the crux of the game. We'll keep you updated as details emerge.

M$ rep needs to eat his own words.

[cliffbo]

what about web pages and familly pics? won't they be that little bit more steady in 1080p anyway?

[cliffbo]

M$ rep needs to eat his own words.

+1rep to you my good friend. eat it!!!!

[xbdestroya]

But Untold Legends is the perfect example of a game that looks - well, looks bad - being able to pull off 1080p. I even referenced that game earlier as being one with 1080p announced.

[cliffbo]

But Untold Legends is the perfect example of a game that looks - well... looks bad - being able to pull off 1080p. I even referenced that game earlier as being one with 1080p announced.

stop running for cover XB lol :) i actually think this game is going to be big. the graphics don't look that bad. okay they don't look like KZ but at 1080p they're gonna be crisp and steady.

[OmniCloud]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Sony's intention to future proof the PS3? I remember Kutagari or Harrison say it i think. 1080p TV's are like $4000! There's no way their games are gonna be running at this resolution this year, or even in 2007. I believe the idea was, when TV's and basically technology is ready to have content in 1080p resolution, the PS3 will be ready and capable of handling it. Anyway, It looks like M$ is going to have a tough time this gen..Many predictions are seeing Sony in 1st place again with like half the market share, M$ in second, and NInty in 3rd. But i dunno, if Sony comes through on everything they're claiming-just what in the hell advantages will 360 have over a PS3? Some people aren't really seeing that i think-PSP and DS and really blowing up and Ninty didn't even release their next game boy yet... I don't see Xbox in the limelight this gen unless they do Something different and more importantly, somthing compelling enough to hold off the other guys... THen again, Halo 3 might just sell another 100 Million copies and save the day again so who knows?

[xbdestroya]

stop running for cover XB lol :) i actually think this game is going to be big. the graphics don't look that bad. okay they don't look like KZ but at 1080p they're gonna be crisp and steady.

Running for cover? ;)

I'm going to state this plainly so there's no confusion: *my* preference for game development would be to target 720p vs 1080p. First of all, the games will look better as the GPU's power will be able to be utilized for greater effects. Second of all, things such as AA and HDR will take less of a toll on the system, and third of all with the reasons given above as a backdrop, myself owning a 1080p television set is probably a long ways off; yet I've had 52" a 1080i set for a couple of years now.

1080p - I'm all about it. But for me it's more of a movie thing right now than a game thing. Four, five years from now - hey, bring on the 1080p. But right now if Untold Legends is what happens when you target that resolution, well no thanks.

And people - if we're going to keep bringing up what resolutions your running your computers at, I want to hear about the game and the hardware and the settings. Because I *know* that these games being run at high-ass resolutions are not the games that these next gen titles are going to be in terms of demands.

@Sephiroth: Yes, future-proofing is the name of the game - as is full resolution output for BD movie playback. Just keep in mind that when games on PS3 reach 1080p as mainstream (2009?), Microsoft will be preparing to release their next console. So right now they can afford to knock 1080p all they like.

[cliffbo]

Running for cover? ;)

I'm going to state this plainly so there's no confusion: *my* preference for game development would be to target 720p vs 1080p. First of all, the games will look better as the GPU's power will be able to be utilized for greater effects. Second of all, things such as AA and HDR will take less of a toll on the system, and third of all with the reasons given above as a backdrop, myself owning a 1080p television set is probably a long ways off; yet I've had 52" a 1080i set for a couple of years now.

1080p - I'm all about it. But for me it's more of a movie thing right now than a game thing. Four, five years from now - hey, bring on the 1080p. But right now if Untold Legends is what happens when you target that resolution, well no thanks.

And people - if we're going to keep bringing up what resolutions your running your computers at, I want to hear about the game and the hardware and the settings. Because I *know* that these games being run at high-ass resolutions are not the games that these next gen titles are going to be in terms of demands.

@Sephiroth: Yes, future-proofing is the name of the game - as is full resolution output for BD movie playback. Just keep in mind that when games on PS3 reach 1080p as mainstream (2009?), Microsoft will be preparing to release their next console. So right now they can afford to knock 1080p all they like.

just joshing XB lol. i actually agree with everything you've said here. except Untold. i still think its going to be an excellent game and capture the imagination. the main reason for this will be the fact that it can be played in story mode with a group of people undertaking the main thrust together but also, if you so wish you can break fromthe group and play it as a typical MMO. sounds good to me.
watch this:http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/814/814614/vids_1.html

[xbdestroya]

Well right, but it will be incredible(?) in spite of it's graphics - not because of them.

[Smokey]

i think they should really be aiming for 720p. we dont need 1080p as xb has stated, & also as seph has stated its more of a future proofing the system. i agree the main 1080p you will get is movies or a couple of AAA game producers. everyone seems to be getting pretty worked up about this?

[cliffbo]

i think they should really be aiming for 720p. we dont need 1080p as xb has stated, & also as seph has stated its more of a future proofing the system. i agree the main 1080p you will get is movies or a couple of AAA game producers. everyone seems to be getting pretty worked up about this?

i agree with the both of you.

[RavenFox]

I don't know, I honestly think the 1080p thing won't be too big a deal for quite some time to come; Microsoft is totally justified in pointing to 1080p and Blu-ray and saying 'waste of time.' Sony is including these features for other reasons; to provide a boost to the consumer electronics end of things.

Not that they're not nice mind you - PS3 *will* be my BD player - it's just that from a gaming perspective they're kin dof superfluous in a way, though BD has security advantages against piracy and obviously a large size advantage.



Well, it's exactly like saying 'potentially brilliant;' it's a non-comment trying to convey a certain tone - in this case negativity. But what do I care if an MS rep is trying to cast some of PS3's features in a superfluous light? Certainly doesn't effect me in the least.

All I'm saying is that I agree that devs would be better off targeting 720p than 1080p - the majority of consumers would benefit much more greatly from this.
Your a very cool mate and one of more lvl headed people on the internet but I disagree with that statement. What are they justifying? Blu Ray and 1080p is a waste of time? For who? Microsoft? This is all downplay against the competition and keep them in the consumers eyes. Yes I understand the strain it takes on a system as a whole to produce a game at that native res with a very smooth framerate but saying 1080p is absurd is just as absurd as not to produce games at this lvl. Thank God Microsoft isnt the last word on this.

[Infernal]

Guys all this is, is a bash Microsoft thread honestly. Its not discussing anything about the PS3, everyone knows most games will be 720p with some at 1080p such as the next GT and some other titles. These Microsoft bashing threads need to stop popping up, I mean everything they say doesnt need to be posted, especially in the PS3 section.

[Smokey]

i totally agree infernal

[cliffbo]

Guys all this is, is a bash Microsoft thread honestly. Its not discussing anything about the PS3, everyone knows most games will be 720p with some at 1080p such as the next GT and some other titles. These Microsoft bashing threads need to stop popping up, I mean everything they say doesnt need to be posted, especially in the PS3 section.

this is a challenge to Sony and as such should get an airing on a Sony thread. if Microsoft keep making these statements with aninimity then the truth will never be uncovered. Dispelling a manufactured truth is not MS bashing.

[xbdestroya]

Your a very cool mate and one of more lvl headed people on the internet but I disagree with that statement. What are they justifying? Blu Ray and 1080p is a waste of time? For who? Microsoft? This is all downplay against the competition and keep them in the consumers eyes. Yes I understand the strain it takes on a system as a whole to produce a game at that native res with a very smooth framerate but saying 1080p is absurd is just as absurd as not to produce games at this lvl. Thank God Microsoft isnt the last word on this.

It's not about 'producing games on this level' though; 1080p isn't a higher level than 720p, it's just a higher resolution. But at higher resolutions, there's less you an actually *do* on the screen. Now some people might say, a AAA dev could put out the quality of game a regular dev is putting out at 1080p vs 720p. Well, let's just say arbitrarily that yes, they could. But, the same dev house could put out a superior looking (eye-candy wise) 720p game to that 1080p game they put out, IMO making the potential of 720p and RSX much more compelling than 1080p and RSX.

I'm not saying Microsoft is justifying, I'm saying they're justified.

[Smokey]

the main point i see is people are starting to get a bit WORKED up with all this MS talk.

[xbdestroya]

Yes, seriously. Who cares if MS says that Blu-ray and 1080p are a waste? I would understand if it was the first time, but seriously this is like the tenth time they've done it.

It's just background noise at this point.

[cliffbo]

the main point i see is people are starting to get a bit WORKED up with all this MS talk.

why not! we are allowed to be passionate and if they close this thread then surely this thread:http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=53609 should be closed also. leave them open its healthy and we're not kids here you know.

[Infernal]

Exactly, and posting more MS talk isnt going to help with that.

Now Cliff I understand what your saying, but read the posts in this thread, the myth was busted in the very first post of this thread, infact I doubt anyone on these forums believed what MS said in the first place. Everything else is just people bitching about the way MS says things.

[cliffbo]

Exactly, and posting more MS talk isnt going to help with that.

Now Cliff I understand what your saying, but read the posts in this thread, the myth was busted in the very first post of this thread, infact I doubt anyone on these forums believed what MS said in the first place. Everything else is just people bitching about the way MS says things.

let the thread run out of its own steam :)

[lips]

Going from 1megapixel to two drops maybe only a couple frames for an average scene for your normal game that came out in the past year. Just my two cents, ofcourse I totally admit brand spanking new games, for example, Call of Duty 2, occationally encounters frame issues at highest res, with aa, in very :chinese2: complex scenes, on my 6600gt card. Normally output is higher than the 60fps my lcd can do.

[xbdestroya]

Going from 1megapixel to two drops maybe only a couple frames for an average scene for your normal game that came out in the past year. Just my two cents, ofcourse I totally admit brand spanking new games, for example, Call of Duty 2, occationally encounters frame issues at highest res, with aa, in very :chinese2: complex scenes, on my 6600gt card. Normally output is higher than the 60fps my lcd can do.

I'm going to use this benchmark result here as a totally arbitrary example of what I'm talking about - and keep in mind FEAR is months old, future games will be more demanding, and more demanding the year after that, and so on...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/xbdestroya/fear3.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/xbdestroya/fear1.jpg

Ok.

Now, newer cards have since been released, there have been driver tweaks, and the result is today you can play this game at a good framerate with good effects if you have a top of the line card. But remember it's a 2005 game on 2006 hardware. 2006 games aren't going to run as well on those cards - they're going to run slower... until the next gen of cards comes out.

RSX will be forever frozen in time. Yes, it will be powerful, yes it will have Cell, but there's a very real wall that will be hit in terms of what it can do. And when that wall is reached, the decision devs make will be for res *or* for effects. And if the demand for games at 1080p isn't crazy high at that point, it's just going to make more sense to do 720p. Afterall, the game with more effects will be the one that looks more impressive in trailers, in photos, in reviews. It will more readily generate the hype.

[Smokey]

lol im might be the working youse all up....sorry :dur:

[Dradien]

Remember XB, devs will do stuff on the RSX that right now we say that the RSX can't do.

There's now bump-mapping on the PS2, and look at GoW and Shadow of the Col. Things people, even Pro-PS2 people such as myself, said the system would never dream of doing.

We just need to wait and see what the devs do, because as you and I know, they can pull off some awesome stuff.

[xbdestroya]

Remember XB, devs will do stuff on the RSX that right now we say that the RSX can't do.

There's now bump-mapping on the PS2, and look at GoW and Shadow of the Col. Things people, even Pro-PS2 people such as myself, said the system would never dream of doing.

We just need to wait and see what the devs do, because as you and I know, they can pull off some awesome stuff.

I absolutely agree with you; it's just whatever they can achieve on the RSX at 1080p, they'll always be able to achieve more of it at 720p. Maybe there will be a plateau reached where it starts making sense to pursue the higher resolution vs the pursuit of more eye-candy. I just have a hard time envisioning where exactly that point lies in the future.

[woundingchaney]

yeah I dont want any part of this :flamed:

[Dradien]

Currently, yea, I agree with you, It's better to go with 720P, but in the future, like you said, we don't know what we'll see. It's beyond ignorance for MS to say it's highly unlikely (paraphrasing it here) for 1080P to be done on PS3.

No one knows, and I think I speak for us all when I say I'm excited thinking of how the devs will handle the RSX.

[RavenFox]

It's not about 'producing games on this level' though; 1080p isn't a higher level than 720p, it's just a higher resolution. But at higher resolutions, there's less you an actually *do* on the screen. Now some people might say, a AAA dev could put out the quality of game a regular dev is putting out at 1080p vs 720p. Well, let's just say arbitrarily that yes, they could. But, the same dev house could put out a superior looking (eye-candy wise) 720p game to that 1080p game they put out, IMO making the potential of 720p and RSX much more compelling than 1080p and RSX.

I'm not saying Microsoft is justifying, I'm saying they're justified.
Excellent reply. Agreed.

[cliffbo]

Excellent reply. Agreed.

i'm just gonna disagree for the sake of it... i'm knackered :(

[lips]

RSX will be forever frozen in time. Yes, it will be powerful, yes it will have Cell, but there's a very real wall that will be hit in terms of what it can do. And when that wall is reached, the decision devs make will be for res *or* for effects. And if the demand for games at 1080p isn't crazy high at that point, it's just going to make more sense to do 720p. Afterall, the game with more effects will be the one that looks more impressive in trailers, in photos, in reviews. It will more readily generate the hype.


looks like graph is only loosing maybe 5 frames from 1024 to 1200 res, this is better than I expected, as I was talking about like sports or rts for frames. I don't really expect soft shadows on my 6600gt, I suppose x360 users get them, I don't really mind without for now. ps3 has other advantages, and backgrounds, environments, are planned to be completely rendered at cell with many companies. But even if not, rsx is higher hz than 7800, and the 7800 does get over 50 fps 1200 res, no soft shadows.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying all games need to be 2 megapixels for me to be happy. Even if all games are 720p I would still like 1080 support for movies. And I don't even mind if nearly all blu-ray movies are introduced at 720, its just that its there, for a similar price, makes me want it.

[RavenFox]

i'm just gonna disagree for the sake of it... i'm knackered :(
lol

[curryking1]

You've done it again xbdestroya. You're just too good lol. The all seeing perspective is always the best. :)

[jaxmkii]

Funny, as I play games today at 1920x1200 on my 6600gt card. This is hardly high end.
HEY MS!!! funny thing is i just got finished playing Empire at war @ 1920x1080p

and it was on a 2 year old ATi 9800pro

Impossible think not!

[jaxmkii]

Guys all this is, is a bash Microsoft thread honestly. Its not discussing anything about the PS3, everyone knows most games will be 720p with some at 1080p such as the next GT and some other titles. These Microsoft bashing threads need to stop popping up, I mean everything they say doesnt need to be posted, especially in the PS3 section.
some one has to say something MS is continuing its mud sliging

[iceman2654]

Just out of curiosity, has Sony made direct FUD attacks at Microsoft?

[venomv]

They have, Kuturagi called the X360 the XBox 1.5, that's all that come to mind, though I'm sure there has been planty.

Welcome to the forums, Iceman!

[iceman2654]

Thanks for the welcome venmv. I've been reading on this forum for quite a while so I've finally decided to join you guys.

Anyways I was just thinking everytime Microsoft (employee of some sort) says something about Sony it comes out rather harshly. The bullet in the PS2 comes to mind. Whereas Sony is...shall say a little more mature?

My point is, Microsoft is big on talk and maybe that's what's bothering everybody. We all know the Playstation 3 will be great but not everyone is well informed so Microsoft may win a few as a result.

[koldfuzion]

It's just puffery--he's obviously overstating the case, but in the end he's probably right at least in the first few years I really doubt you'll see many, if any (other than maybe some showpieces out of SCE) games in 1080p, given a) almost NO ONE has a 1080p TV b) nor will more than 5-10% of the public have them in 2-3 years and maybe 30%-40% tops in 5 (I don't even know if 1080i has reached 40% penetration yet), c) the potential sales developers would generate given the market size is so small (games will not compete on resolution, they will compete on story, gameplay and other factors, I don't think anyone will really be turned off by a great game in 720p) d) likewise, the benefits in terms of the actual gaming experience to consumers are comparatively small when compared to the move to 720p, therefore e) few people are willing to pay for it so f) why would anyone bother? Impossible no. But he has a point that there really isn't much need for it. Higher framerates are probably a hell of a lot more important, as well as better ARTWORK to render in high res in the firstplace, which costs lots of cash and IS worth the money. Who gives a damn if it's 1080p if you are viewing CRAP at high resolution?

[frosty]

http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=53814

[F089/H]

That's crazy..almost every thing I look at from my monitor to my TV's are running at or are at least capable of 1080p.I'm all HD.

[koldfuzion]

I doubt the TV is running at 1080p native, unless it's a new DLP. Some can upconvert the signal, but as far as I know not many. I am skeptical about any old HD tv running 1080p properly but I could be wrong.

[Dradien]

If need be, just run it to a monitor. Any decent monitor made in the last few years (CRT at least) can run a 1080P signal.

Assumeing there will me a VGA adapter.

[Smokey]

i might be able to run 1080p into it, doesnt mean you are seeing 1080p. i can run 720p & 1080i into my sd panel but im still seeing 800x480 res. looks nice though time to get a hd plasma/lcd once ps3 comes out.

[jaxmkii]

^^^ I have been unknowingly running 1080p for the last 3 years buy adapting the DVI-I out put on my PC to my big screen CRT...

and yes it native rez is actualy higher than 1920x1080. the sony enginer that built it told me its actual native rez is the same size as a 5.25 Mpix photo (something like 2550x1920)

durring this particular HD set development it was unclear as to just how high HD was realy going to go so they tryed to "future proof" it. its actualy far more capible than advertised.

i wonder how many other sets out there are like mine?

[jaxmkii]

I doubt the TV is running at 1080p native, unless it's a new DLP. Some can upconvert the signal, but as far as I know not many. I am skeptical about any old HD tv running 1080p properly but I could be wrong.my 3 year old CRT is doing it right now!:thumbl: