Anything about Cell regarding "disapperance acts"

[Goki]

Ok now that GDC has come and gone and a lot of developer issues have been raised, I was wondering whether there was anything brought forward regarding the infamous disappearance acts of games today. One prime example is RE4 for PS2, Zombies suddenly vapourizing, of course we know they arent vapourizing because the developers want them to, but rahter because it takes to much memory to keep bodies piled up.

Yet this is exactly what I would like in games, no more disappearance acts. I take it RAM has a big impact on this, but im pretty sure Cell is supposed to be good at this sorta stuff aswell.

SO to the point, was there anything in GDC (or anywhere else) that touched on this issue. All i could seem to find is Ray traycing and volumetric clouds and shadows and stuff. This issue doesnt seem to have been touched on latest GDC.

[Helios]

Im certainly no expert but Cell's power doesnt have a whole lot to do with the amount of data the RAM can handle.

The dissapearing act will probaly continue well into the future until consoles and PC's have GPU's that are far faster and large amounts of memory that they can waste a lot of power for dead items.

[Goki]

AAAH its just that there so much touching not touching on this subject but rahter mapping reflective mapping, textures and fps. No one seems to be addressing this issue, which leads me to think if some developer gave half as much attention into this matter than volumetric clouds or soft shadows or whaterver then something could be done about this. I really dont feel like getting into next gen gaming at all if this issue is not solved o partly or atleast addressed in some way in some games. Seems like Polygon amount and textures is the only thing on developers and middleware developers mind, with IQ being the new trend in gaming development.

[Viper]

This is a RAM/developer issue, not CELL. A developer can do that right now but it takes up precious RAM (I think some games already do this but it's very few). Bullet holes, vehicle damage, etc...are related issues. I mentioned it's also a developer issue. Games are programmed to remove the bodies after death to free up RAM. You'll need a dev that is willing to sacrifice some RAM to keep the baddies lying around. I have 2 GB's on my PC and I can't think of any game right now that still doesn't evaporate the dead.

RE4 simply had nothing left over in RAM to handle that.

[cliffbo]

so you got a thousand troupes coming at you, all filtering through a large door in the castle. as they enter and approach you keep on shooting until the soldiers are piled so high you can see the other soldiers scrambling to climb the pile to get to you. you kill them all and think its a job well done. 'now' you think to yourself, 'where was that side door?' do you spend an hour dragging each one back through the door or pray that the developer will dissolve them? another example. guess what one of the soldiers has the key to the side door!!!! dissolve i say. reality is fine when it enhances play.

[Helios]

so you got a thousand troupes coming at you, all filtering through a large door in the castle. as they enter and approach you keep on shooting until the soldiers are piled so high you can see the other soldiers scrambling to climb the pile to get to you. you kill them all and think its a job well done. 'now' you think to yourself, 'where was that side door?' do you spend an hour dragging each one back through the door or pray that the developer will dissolve them?

I choose Plan C: take my standard issue rocket launcher or grenade and blow the bodies out of my way.

note: I dont know if RE4 had rocket launchers or grenades, didnt play it so change for closest equivelant.

[RavenFox]

so you got a thousand troupes coming at you, all filtering through a large door in the castle. as they enter and approach you keep on shooting until the soldiers are piled so high you can see the other soldiers scrambling to climb the pile to get to you. you kill them all and think its a job well done. 'now' you think to yourself, 'where was that side door?' do you spend an hour dragging each one back through the door or pray that the developer will dissolve them?
lol. You went to far with that one Cliff lol

[cliffbo]

lol. You went to far with that one Cliff lol

it makes the point though :) read it again, one of the soldiers has the key to the side door. lol

[cliffbo]

I choose Plan C: take my standard issue rocket launcher or grenade and blow the bodies out of my way.

note: I dont know if RE4 had rocket launchers or grenades, didnt play it so change for closest equivelant.

your trapped and you have no rocket launcher.

[Helios]

I dare say though, if this were a movie the bodies wouldnt suddenly dissapear sdo they can find the door easier. They'd dig their way through the bodies(or blow them up), or they would end up going another way.

I dont believe anything except GPU power is sacrificed here, realism is always appreciated.

[Viper]

note: I dont know if RE4 had rocket launchers or grenades, didnt play it so change for closest equivelant.
Has both and what the hell are you doing on the forums without having played that masterpiece?

Log off right now, flog yourself for 10 minutes, buy, rob, borrow long term from someone and grant yourself the gaming nirvana that comes around fewer times each generation. Absolute video gaming-gasm.

[cliffbo]

I dare say though, if this were a movie the bodies wouldnt suddenly dissapear sdo they can find the door easier. They'd dig their way through the bodies(or blow them up), or they would end up going another way.

I dont believe anything except GPU power is sacrificed here, realism is always appreciated.

but like i said one of the soldiers has the key to the side door and there is no other way in.

[Helios]

but like i said one of the soldiers has the key to the side door and there is no other way in.\

Well in that extreme case surely dissapearing bodies would be preffered, but realistically I dount the developers would design that particular scene that way. And if not whats your rush? Digging through all those bodies might be a bit of a hassle(understatement) but there's certainly no overwhelming hurry.

Has both and what the hell are you doing on the forums without having played that masterpiece?


At the time I was choosing between God of War and RE4. I still believe I made the better decision. :) Just havent gotten around to still getting RE4.

[xbdestroya]

Has both and what the hell are you doing on the forums without having played that masterpiece?

Log off right now, flog yourself for 10 minutes, buy, rob, borrow long term from someone and grant yourself the gaming nirvana that comes around fewer times each generation. Absolute video gaming-gasm.

Alright and you get to work on Shadow of the Colossus and God of War Viper. ;) (we need a less 'negative' looking wink smiley by the way)

Anyway if the hard drive is indeed standard/required/whatever, then they should be able to keep the bodies around forever irrespective of RAM. So look forward to that!

Also about that 'pile of bodies,' that's awesome. And if the new opponents were actually to climb on top of the pile, or bodies roll off, or an explosion change the shape of the pile - that's physics and that's what I'm looking for.

[cliffbo]

Well in that extreme case surely dissapearing bodies would be preffered, but realistically I dount the developers would design that particular scene that way. And if not whats your rush? Digging through all those bodies might be a bit of a hassle(understatement) but there's certainly no overwhelming hurry.

then where in agreement. sometimes, not always lol. i was waiting for you to come at me with another way out. :)

[cliffbo]

Alright and you get to work on Shadow of the Colossus and God of War Viper. ;) (we need a less 'negative' looking wink smiley by the way)

Anyway if the hard drive is indeed standard/required/whatever, then they should be able to keep the bodies around forever irrespective of RAM. So look forward to that!
Also about that 'pile of bodies,' that's awesome. And if the new opponents were actually to climb on top of the pile, or bodies roll off, or an explosion change the shape of the pile - that's physics and that's what I'm looking for.

XB where you locked in a closet as a child. or did you saw off the legs and arms of your action man lol

[xbdestroya]

[/B]

XB where you locked in a closet as a child. or did you saw off the legs and arms of your action man lol

LOL, actually no - and in fact I'm probably from childhood to present one of the least malicious people you'll have ever met; pick up earthworms after the rain and take them to dirt is the kind of man I am.

But that being said, I do think the 'pile of bodies' example would be a great showcase for ragdoll physics and such.

[Z]

At the time I was choosing between God of War and RE4. I still believe I made the better decision. :) Just havent gotten around to still getting RE4.
true dat. having played RE and GoW, the latter is definitly much better. this is my own opinion, but after playing GoW, RE4 feels like a snail race. sure they made the controlls better than the past RE, but the past RE games were way behind to begin with. GoW is fast, furious, and Kratos literally tears up bodies with his bare hands!
let's just say if Kratos was in RE4, the game would ended in 5 minutes :flamed:

oh, and Viper: three words for you:

ICO, SotC & GoW. thank me later ;)

[jaxmkii]

your trapped and you have no rocket launcher. in blood 2 the chosen you could always hack the bodies up with your knife:dur:

[jaxmkii]

LOL, actually no - and in fact I'm probably from childhood to present one of the least malicious people you'll have ever met; pick up earthworms after the rain and take them to dirt is the kind of man I am.
. im glad im not the only one that dose that :banana:

[cliffbo]

true dat. having played RE and GoW, the latter is definitly much better. this is my own opinion, but after playing GoW, RE4 feels like a snail race. sure they made the controlls better than the past RE, but the past RE games were way behind to begin with. GoW is fast, furious, and Kratos literally tears up bodies with his bare hands!
let's just say if Kratos was in RE4, the game would ended in 5 minutes :flamed:

oh, and Viper: three words for you:

ICO, SotC & GoW. thank me later ;)

its a difficult thing to call which is better between GoW and RE4. they are completely different. RE4 is just too filmatic to miss out on and GoW is just too darn visceral to miss out on. If anyone who hasn't played ICO is reading this then buy it, sit at home with the lights out and watch a lesson in how to make video games.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

persistent environmental damage is kind of in the same categorie as this. Persistent inactive NPCs, if there are a ton of them- seems like a waste of technology in my opinion. Realism for realism's sake in video games is stupid. If it aids the depth of the game, then sure go for it (half life). But really, the biggest reason something like that wasn't addressed is, it's not an 'issue'. that just seems like a personal problem to me. Okay, the dead bodies aren't persistent, get over it. It doesn't detract from the quality of the game. And do persistent dead bodies necessarily add to the quality of a game? Like cliffbo said, it can potentially be a hassle, detrimental to gameplay. It's possible that certain developers will allow for such things in their games, but it's not one of the issues in the industry under the list of 'graphical limitations' like texturing,lighting,polygon processing, etc... Seems like a nitpicky topic to me.

[Z]

I would much prefer the boddies not disappearing in front of my eyes. they should leave them until I turn around or something. that way, it would seem less 'out of this world'.

[woundingchaney]

RAM is going to be the determining aspect of game development in this next gen. With Sony and MS both having a combined total of 512 (although MS is pooled and Sony is split), I look for this to be quite possibly the main hinderence to both systems. So look for continuing vanishing corpses as well as other gameplay/graphical flaws as games become much larger in scope. Of course much of this can be offset by proper coding and development, I just personally cant see 512 being sufficient throughout the course of this gen.

This is of course my opinion.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

The problem with increased power is increased standards. Imagine the technical sophistaction of a game if it kept say, the aesthetic of a 5th generation ps2 or xbox game, but used the rest of that next gen power for subtle things like persistent bodies, environmental changes, etc. It'd be pretty neat. But the way the market works is, you have to push the power and visuals first for new generations and other things are 2ndary.

[PS3LikeNoOther]

That 60 gig hdd will fix that problem completely if the dev thinks that it needs be done.

[Lekko]

I'd like to see other ways around those isues. Like body cleanup crews, or ways the bodies dissappeared on their own. Depending on the game the bodies could dissappear in a way that at least makes sence. Like vampires vaporizing, or people turning into scenery and rotting away, or packs of wild animals eating the dead. I'd rather see persistance of things be used more in scenery rather than bodies. When I backtrack, I want to see everything still riddled with bullets and broken from my earlier rampage.

[Goki]

i dont want to see them disappearing as soon as thebody count get to 3 or4. In RE4, the bodies wouldnt suddnely vaporize, its only when u leave the area, which i could live with OR when the body count starts getting higer than 3 thats what really bugged me in the game. And thats something id like to see being addressed by developers more. I dont want the bodies there 60 hours after ive played the game, i know thats not necesarry, but dont make em disappear infront of me. And this just doesnt apply to RE4 which is sorta a fictonal and vaporization is almost accepted. There are other games which are the same aswell but which are realistic. MGS being one of them

[Z]

well, they are using what you are saying in a way. there aren't many more games out there where bodies will flicker and disappear like they were holographs. zombies melt in RE4, for example.

they are trying to be better with this, but I wish they won't make them disappear that fast, and not in front of our eyes like that.

in any case, this is really just nagging. it isn't serious at all, and we have been fine with it for ever. just us being spoiled with the expectations of a new generation of hardware. ;)

[Goki]

I have a feeling it would be better by now if they gave it more attention into the specific issue thats all. All this talk about shadows and ray traycing is whats buggin me as I havent seen a tech demo to address this issue. You think theres absolutely nothin to do about it but to include more RAM,or are there other ways? Can Cell do something about it ?

[Junox50]

There will still be dissapearing bodies. Makes no sense to have them keep piling and take up memory. This is more of a issue with ram than Cell.

In RE4, the bodies wouldnt suddnely vaporize, its only when u leave the area,

Certain bodies dissapear in RE4 after the being is killed and other bodies stay until you leave the area.

zombies melt in RE4, for example.

They're not zombies :)

[Goki]

There will still be dissapearing bodies. Makes no sense to have them keep piling and take up memory. This is more of a issue with ram than Cell.



Certain bodies dissapear in RE4 after the being is killed and other bodies stay until you leave the area.



They're not zombies :)

Someone change the topic heading then, something more approrpiate, but yeah i wanna take this topic further. So is it just RAM thats detrimental!?

[Viper]

RAM is by far the biggest factor in bodies, bullet holes, object damage....anything that seems to disappear or resest.

Hard drives can be used to help though by acting as slower virtual RAM.

[Smokey]

ive seen a game(cant remember wich one) where the bodies stayed & it was a shock to see. but it definately made a difference in the feel for it.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

in any case, this is really just nagging. it isn't serious at all, and we have been fine with it for ever. just us being spoiled with the expectations of a new generation of hardware. ;)

[yoshaw]

Ok now that GDC has come and gone and a lot of developer issues have been raised, I was wondering whether there was anything brought forward regarding the infamous disappearance acts of games today. One prime example is RE4 for PS2, Zombies suddenly vapourizing, of course we know they arent vapourizing because the developers want them to, but rahter because it takes to much memory to keep bodies piled up.

Yet this is exactly what I would like in games, no more disappearance acts. I take it RAM has a big impact on this, but im pretty sure Cell is supposed to be good at this sorta stuff aswell.

SO to the point, was there anything in GDC (or anywhere else) that touched on this issue. All i could seem to find is Ray traycing and volumetric clouds and shadows and stuff. This issue doesnt seem to have been touched on latest GDC.

Since when did the disappearing act became a PS2 only problem? Dude, you need to step out and smell some fresh air once in a while you know. The disappearing acts have been with us since the dawn of 3D gaming. You would probably see it in next-gen titles too on all platforms.

This has nothing to do with Cell or PS2, rather it has everything to do with how a developer plans a level and the amount of decals allowed in it(that's including dead bodies). I'm sure a lot of developer would use this feature but I'm gonna go with Cliffbo on this one. Why mess with waste of memory with 2 lying bodies when a developer can push 2 more zombies in my face at 30mph with the extra memory release benefit from the disappearing ones.

[Lekko]

Why not just swap out the mesh of the fallen enemy with a lower poly version to free up some ram space? It wouldn't look as good, but it would work and be a nice compromise.

[Goki]

Since when did the disappearing act became a PS2 only problem? Dude, you need to step out and smell some fresh air once in a while you know. The disappearing acts have been with us since the dawn of 3D gaming. You would probably see it in next-gen titles too on all platforms.

There's nothing in my quote saying its only a ps2 problem. I just gave an example of a popular game on a popular console, im not bashing on the ps2, rather just the actual topic of disappearing charachters. Dont know what u mean by "you need to step out and smell some fresh air once in a while you know"

[Goki]

Why not just swap out the mesh of the fallen enemy with a lower poly version to free up some ram space? It wouldn't look as good, but it would work and be a nice compromise.


See theres something that could be worked on. Very good suggestion. I just wish developers would think more of it aswell.

[Z]

The disappearing acts have been with us since the dawn of 3D gaming.
it has been there since before that. even in old 2D scrollers era. from the Atari 2600 till the latest Alienware PC setup. :sleep:

[cpiasminc]

ive seen a game(cant remember wich one) where the bodies stayed & it was a shock to see. but it definately made a difference in the feel for it.
Tenchu comes to mind. And part of the reason they could do it was because there were only a handful of enemies in an entire level. That, and the fact that the enemy AI was so simplistic that each NPC ate up next to no resources other than the mesh.

Why not just swap out the mesh of the fallen enemy with a lower poly version to free up some ram space? It wouldn't look as good, but it would work and be a nice compromise.
Then you'd end up fragmenting memory and then you end up with free regions that can't be used anyway because there isn't a large enough contiguous block of memory.

In reality, you don't store separate instances to a character's polymesh, so you actually don't save any memory by having a low-poly version to render -- you just save polycount. What we normally do is store a single instance of the mesh and its material info and then store multiple instances of something that references the object keeping track only of its transform state.

Also, rendering involves API call overhead for every object you draw, and that cost is basically the same regardless of how high or low poly the object is. So no matter what, keeping that character around is a waste of rendering time and effort, and it also means more objects to keep track of and test for things like visibility, range tests, collision tests, trigger tests, etc. You're not helping anything there.

[Lekko]

Okay, so then nevermind about low poly meshes. I'm trying to eventually get to the level you are at Cpi, you are so far and above me it's insane.

If anyone wants other examples of games that do feature redundant enemies, Champions: return to arms did such a thing. Glad they did too, otherwise you'd get lost by not knowing which routes you already went down. It also saved dropped weapons in certain areas which was pretty impressive.

Although... when you think about it, the power requirement overall should be the same if not lower after going through a level (as long as there are no man-machines or additional enemies in an area). If there are 1000 characters on screen, than those resources to render those bodies is already being spent, and I don't necessarily see why the resources would go up once the character died unless it is because of the physics of 1000 ragdoll bodies. If the PS3 can have 1000 enemies onscreen fighting, why not 1000 dead bodies? (as long as the level ONLY has 1000 enemies in any given area at once and that the engine is built to handle that.) I guess that's more design than rather then tech.

Couldn't you cache the deadbody locations and states on the HDD then? I'd think the HDD would be plenty fast if the game loaded those areas well in advance. Granted, it would fragment the HDD with frequent re-writing, but maybe not if you set it up correctly where each body had a slot that was defenite in space and only values were rewritten. Than the total save state as you leave an area is always static, and your data would not get fragmented. Each level would have a save-state table for the alterations you have inflicted upon it (dead bodies doesn't seem too hard from what I am thinking right now, and most other things could be done in the same format.) So... HDD standard could fix that if the dev team decided to implement it.