Is Blu Ray really a necessity for games?

[Voidler]

I mean seriously, looking at games like Oblivion - huge world, fully voice acted, great next gen visuals... Unless we're wanting massive amounts of FMV involved, why the need for Blu Ray? I'm not trolling, I want to know honestly if it's going to make any difference and how?

[cliffbo]

your going to give poor Z another headache here. honestly this has been done to death. first games think quantity, subsequent games think quality (ie textures) enough said

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Yes.

[Alkemist]

Yes.

[Voidler]

Forgive me if I've missed the Blu Ray threads but I'd really just like to know why... Will the lack of compression needed because of Blu Ray make games look bette, load faster.. What?

[cpiasminc]

Content growth is basically exponential. We'll still have to compress data whether it's Bluray or DVD or CD or whatever. The thing is that doesn't really change how quickly content grows in size. For instance, a 1024x1024 texture compared to a 256x256 texture is 16 times more content, and it's the same 16x growth whether it's compressed or not.

Not only that, but where we might have had just a texture and a bump/normal map on a model on the Xbox, on next-gen, models will be having all nature of specular level maps, translucency maps, spherical harmonic coefficients, etc. to add on to all that.

It won't be necessary all that soon, but it'll probably happen that we'll exceed the 7 GB barrier of DVD. I'm already working within a shared base that is over 38 GB. Okay, so it's multiple projects at once, but there's that much code and content to muck with within one studio at once.

[cliffbo]

Forgive me if I've missed the Blu Ray threads but I'd really just like to know why... Will the lack of compression needed because of Blu Ray make games look bette, load faster.. What?

its more to do with amount of space than anything else. at first at least. but with more room for textures and ai programs the need for extra space will become apparent. the reason most want to support blu-ray over HD DVD is the better protection from piracy and of course more room for extra things such as interviews, outtakes, demos of upcoming games, etc.. and of course because its Sony which is synonimous with quality.

[DofD]

It really depends on the game itself. Some games need much more room for game data than others. With next gen games moving to HD resolutions, it requires much more space than SD resolution game data would. With games like Oblivion the amount of game data, fmv cut scenese, etc, all done in HD could easily go beyond the limits of what a DVD would hold.

But then the inclusion of Blu-Ray in the PS3 is not really about what the games need. If it were just about games, then DVD could work. But rather it's about Sony positioning the PS3 as a home media hub rather than a games console, and Sony wanting to promote next generation media of all types. This includes HD movies, HD broadcast signals, increased number of audio channels, and so on. DVD cannot handle the data requirements of these next generation media formats. Thus the need for a storage medium that can handle these data requirement and Sony's choice is Blu-Ray. Sony did the same type of thing with the inclusion of a DVD drive in the PS2.

[VG Aficionado]

X-Plane v8 + Global-Scenery is out !
It is shipped in 7 DVDs double layer. The disk requirement to install the entire planet is 60 GB.http://www.global-scenery.org/

All right, this is an extreme exception, but there will be many games that will definately need more room than what a double layer DVD offers. Then there will be the option to include all languages in a single disc too, thus resulting in a single universal SKU that can be launched wordwide at the same time.

[Voidler]

Content growth is basically exponential. We'll still have to compress data whether it's Bluray or DVD or CD or whatever. The thing is that doesn't really change how quickly content grows in size. For instance, a 1024x1024 texture compared to a 256x256 texture is 16 times more content, and it's the same 16x growth whether it's compressed or not.

Not only that, but where we might have had just a texture and a bump/normal map on a model on the Xbox, on next-gen, models will be having all nature of specular level maps, translucency maps, spherical harmonic coefficients, etc. to add on to all that.

It won't be necessary all that soon, but it'll probably happen that we'll exceed the 7 GB barrier of DVD. I'm already working within a shared base that is over 38 GB. Okay, so it's multiple projects at once, but there's that much code and content to muck with within one studio at once.I see, I see though I thought Oblivion basically dealed with many of these effects - from a developers standpoint would you be able to say they've used alot of compression for Oblivion..? Repeated 'low-res' textures?

For interests sakes, what is/are pherical harmonic coefficients? I tried googling, but it all just went over my head :XD:

[cybergrue]

The Major reason is that current gen media (DVD-rom) have been filled to capacity for current gen games. GTA:SA was the first game that I heard this happening with, and even then, the developers claimed they had to leave content and improved textures off the disk to make everything fit. So with the DVD media, you can either have a good looking but small environment (high resolution bathtub), or a large gameworld with that doesn't lookthe best. For next gen games, people expect both, and they don't want to see repeated element, lkike buildings. This requires a lot more space then a DVD-rom has, therefore a new storage meadia was needed. As I said before, GTA was the first game (that I know of) that hit this barrier. Since then other games have hit it as well, but the intresting thing about GTA:SA is that it eliminated the load screens that were present in the earlier games in the series. Can you imagine Rockstar going back, and putting in load-screens that say, insert disk x, just so they can keep using DVDs. Of course not. This is why Blu-ray is needed.

The other reason was that the DRM on DVDs has been broken, and the manufatureres want to introduce a new DRM technique. In order for it be widely addopted, it has to offer new features, hece it is being combined with a larger storage capacity media.

[Voidler]

The Major reason is that current gen media (DVD-rom) have been filled to capacity for current gen games. GTA:SA was the first game that I heard this happening with, and even then, the developers claimed they had to leave content and improved textures off the disk to make everything fit. So with the DVD media, you can either have a good looking but small environment (high resolution bathtub), or a large gameworld with that doesn't lookthe best. For next gen games, people expect both, and they don't want to see repeated element, lkike buildings. This requires a lot more space then a DVD-rom has, therefore a new storage meadia was needed. As I said before, GTA was the first game (that I know of) that hit this barrier. Since then other games have hit it as well, but the intresting thing about GTA:SA is that it eliminated the load screens that were present in the earlier games in the series. Can you imagine Rockstar going back, and putting in load-screens that say, insert disk x, just so they can keep using DVDs. Of course not. This is why Blu-ray is needed.

The other reason was that the DRM on DVDs has been broken, and the manufatureres want to introduce a new DRM technique. In order for it be widely addopted, it has to offer new features, hece it is being combined with a larger storage capacity media.I believe that GTASA was 4.5 GB right? Didn't have the potential to go uo 9(?) on a dual layered disc? Same with Oblivion which is 4.5 GB... Although I realise that these games (esspecially Oblivion) hold ties to the PC, so perhaps developers limited themselves based on the limitations of HDD's?

[Coded-Dude]

Well, GTA is one of the first known to hold back for the purpose of containing everything on one disc, there were a good number of games that came on two discs for the PS2.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Name some please kthxbye

[LiquidEagle]

Star Ocean 3 is the first one to come to mind, and obviously Subsistence if you're counting that.

[Voidler]

Star Ocean 3 is the first one to come to mind, and obviously Subsistence if you're counting that.Star Ocean 3 was overloaded with FMV IIRC, I'm talking about necessity for games, not their FMV's.

Subsistence I guess, but it was more a "second game" and it may have just been broken up to seperate the online and single player discs

[xbdestroya]

Blu-ray obviously isn't necessary for games, and it's included in the PS3 for format pushing reasons - let's be honest here - but it's of course nice to have, will benefit games going forward, and is a big anti-piracy measure.

[LiquidEagle]

I also think it's worth noting that Ted Price, president of Insomniac Games, pushed Blu-Ray too. They're an independent company and they really don't have obligations to Sony outside of their good dev/publisher relationship. I think enough of Ted Price & Insomniac Games that I believe they wouldn't push Blu-Ray and its necessity for huge games unless they really thought so. Not much to go on for some people, but I think that means a lot right there since Insomniac gets pretty up-close to the hardware they work on IMO.

Like I said earlier though, I don't think it's all that necessary now, but it won't be long because games are only going to grow (DUH :-p)

[Voidler]

Would you guys say (maybe abit OT for the forum) that X360's need for Blu Ray / HD-DVD would be about the same level as the Dreamcast's need for DVD was. It seems it can do gameslike Oblivion, but because of the limitations on space - the graphics are being severely limited as a result

[Epix]

IMO initially Blu-Ray will allow developers to include extra material (ie Demos, Outtakes, Commentary). In 3-4 years down the road we may begin to see Blu-Ray become a factor in the 'quality' of games.

[Ben-N1ce]

Personally I just want to know the Blu-Ray drive speed. Hopefully greater than 2x.

[jaxmkii]

YES...

can we please stop having this tread once a month?...

[CARTIER90]

Guys, your forgetting Phil's speech on retaining the 'fidelity' of the visuals he showed of Next gen Getaway video !, A DVD is just not going to big enough for next gen free roamers. Its almost as if we are scared of using the space :) !!!

[Voidler]

YES...

can we please stop having this tread once a month?...Yeah but you know my thread was the best yet :happy:

[Coded-Dude]

have you even read the others to compare? Everything in here has already been iterated in these other threads..... Anywho, you will soon see the reason behind the madness. ;-]

[Voidler]

have you even read the others to compare? Everything in here has already been iterated in these other threads..... Anywho, you will soon see the reason behind the madness. ;-]I've been here two years, I've seen other threads on it, just never read them

[Infernal]

Is Blu-Ray a necessity for games? No.
Is Blu-Ray a necsessity for the games I want to play on the PS3? Yes.
All I know is that most of the games I buy on PS3 are games that have had prequals already filling up Dual-Layer DVD's. Games such as GT4 (Dual-Layer), Xenosaga 2 (2 Disks), GTA SA "We're using Dual Layer DVD 9," Brown says. "The hardest thing is cramming it all onto that!" (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=56330)(Dual-Layer), FFX (Cut out stuff to make it fit), if all these games already pushed a DVD to the limit, I just cant see next-gen content for them fitting on a DVD.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I've been here two years, I've seen other threads on it, just never read them

Well MAYBE YOU SHOULD!:tardbang: :dur:

[Domination]

I mean seriously, looking at games like Oblivion - huge world, fully voice acted, great next gen visuals... Unless we're wanting massive amounts of FMV involved, why the need for Blu Ray? I'm not trolling, I want to know honestly if it's going to make any difference and how?

To answer you question from a straight forward, yet logical, point of view:

No. But then you can also ask that same question in reference to cartridges to CDs and CDs to DVDs and so on so forth. So by adopting Blu Ray over DVD, things are of more convenience.

Pertaining to Oblivion, it's a first generation title.

[cpiasminc]

I see, I see though I thought Oblivion basically dealed with many of these effects - from a developers standpoint would you be able to say they've used alot of compression for Oblivion..? Repeated 'low-res' textures?
Really, Oblivion doesn't cover the gamut of effects that one could do, but even beyond that is the fact that stepping beyond normal+parallax and specular level+exponent maps, which are all pretty status quo at this point, is something that Oblivion doesn't do prolifically. Subsurface scattering, for instance, might be saved for the occasional object, as opposed to damn near everything in a scene. Some potential effects simply aren't there, really -- I didn't really see any examples of ambient occlusion, for instance. Which is not to say that Bethesda could have done more -- it's just that what we see right now is not really a very clear indication of what could be 3 or 4 years down the road.

It's not really that there's "more" compression as much as there is less content. Repetitious use is certainly a good example, though. If we want more unique content throughout a game, that means a hell of a lot of space taken up. I believe they might have avoided detail texturing in some areas as well, but I'd have to look at it more closely to be sure.

For interests sakes, what is/are pherical harmonic coefficients? I tried googling, but it all just went over my head
In the most generic sense, Spherical Harmonics are Fourier Series projected onto a sphere (as opposed to a linear axis). In the graphics sense, what it is for is getting a "filtered" form of precomputed lighting. Obviously, a complete lighting solution would require infinitely many coefficients per pixel, but the idea is that the first few coefficients will cover the lowest frequency (i.e. smoothest) components of lighting.

The precomputed lighting itself can be any method and contain all sorts of components, but the point is that it gets convolved about each of the basis functions, and that convolution gets you coefficients regarding the radiance of light off those surfaces in each of those bases. In-game, what you do is transform your local lighting setup into those bases, and feed in the vectors and colors and multiply by your basis functions. Bear in mind that because it's pre-computed, it's only safe for static and/or rigid geometry.

In a visual sense, you can think of it like having the lights in a scene from the point of view of an object or a single point, and that creates an image, and then you severely blur that image and bias specific directions, and the sum of all the pixels in that image is your color with respect to this particular bias. Other severities of blurring and directional biases are also used, and then you sum all these results together and that's your color.

Anyway, most people go up to quadratic order solutions, which requires 9 coefficients, and if you want detail at the per-pixel level then you need 3 textures full of coefficients for this.

[LiquidEagle]

Honestly dude, do you even know what you're talking about? I get so lost in your posts that I have to wonder how you're able to keep track without cybernetic enhancements of some kind :-p

[yoshaw]

Oh I believe Bluray will mop the floor with DVD9 when developers start realizing it as a free ticket to fame. In the next few years when developers would be taken as celebrities(like how Kojima, Miyamoto are now). Then companies like Ubisoft, Capcom, EA, Konami etc will start highlighting their development teams in Extras section of the Bluray disc.

Ancel, Shinji Mikami, Fumita Ueda and Javid Jaffe etc etc could all participate in these extra special videos exclusive for PS3 consumers. Where they showcase their development staff individually and for once in their lifetime get recognized as a talent behind the awesome titles e.g Lair, Ratchet and Clank, Warhawk Remake, FFVII Remake team, FFXIII team, Gran Turismo artists. You know everyone would and could become their own celebrity. THAT'S AWESOME!!!

DVD9 just can't provide that with next-generation of content to fill up DVD's with no room for developer diaries or extras. Bluray will, let me say it again, mop the floor with DVD9, once publishers realize that they need to market their developers more properly through these extras if they want to keep them motivated for the 4 year development schedules that'll plague the next-gen. Phew, that was a long sentence :)

[EvilTaru]

I see, I see though I thought Oblivion basically dealed with many of these effects - from a developers standpoint would you be able to say they've used alot of compression for Oblivion..? Repeated 'low-res' textures?

For interests sakes, what is/are pherical harmonic coefficients? I tried googling, but it all just went over my head :XD:

But we will never know how much was cut from Oblivion to make it fit, or whether the fact that being a PC title and having to cater to everything from mid-end to high-end PC had an effect in terms of simply limiting what kind of assets that can be used which in turn affects the amount of content for the title.

[Loc]

Oh I believe Bluray will mop the floor with DVD9 when developers start realizing it as a free ticket to fame. In the next few years when developers would be taken as celebrities(like how Kojima, Miyamoto are now). Then companies like Ubisoft, Capcom, EA, Konami etc will start highlighting their development teams in Extras section of the Bluray disc.

Ancel, Shinji Mikami, Fumita Ueda and Javid Jaffe etc etc could all participate in these extra special videos exclusive for PS3 consumers. Where they showcase their development staff individually and for once in their lifetime get recognized as a talent behind the awesome titles e.g Lair, Ratchet and Clank, Warhawk Remake, FFVII Remake team, FFXIII team, Gran Turismo artists. You know everyone would and could become their own celebrity. THAT'S AWESOME!!!

DVD9 just can't provide that with next-generation of content to fill up DVD's with no room for developer diaries or extras. Bluray will, let me say it again, mop the floor with DVD9, once publishers realize that they need to market their developers more properly through these extras if they want to keep them motivated for the 4 year development schedules that'll plague the next-gen. Phew, that was a long sentence :)
That's why you can download the extra content off Xbox Live Marketplace. Anyways here's the list of DVD9 games for PS2.

1. 8.05GB USA Xenosaga
2. 8.02GB PAL Champions of Norrath
3. 7.94GB JAP GRAN TURISMO Concept(Traditional Chinese Version) SCPS55903
4. 7.94GB JAP Xenosaga
5. 7.93GB USA God of War
6. 7.74GB USA Champions of Norrath (SLUS: 20565)
7. 4.3GB NTSC DISC 1 champions of norath 8. 4.24GB DISC 2 champions of norath
9. 7.55GB USA The Guy Game (Mature Rating)
10. 7.20GB JAP Sakura Wars Atsuki Chishiyo Ni
11. 6.47GB USA Madden 2005 Collectors Edition
12. 6.13GB PAL Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance
13. 5.99GB USA MGS2: Substance
14. 4.95GB USA GT4 (5,314,478,080 bytes)
15. 5.95GB 50 Cent Bullet Proof
16. 8.00GB Wild Arms: Alter Code F

There could have been tons more but due to many incompatibilities with the older PS2s and reading the discs, the publishers have been wary on releasing them on DVD9s. (ie: see Wild Arms: Alter Code F)

[Effulgence]

I believe that Oblivion was originally multiple dvd's but Microsoft forced them to compress it down to a DVD as to not look bad without HD-DVD. This resulted in the long delay of a game.

Look at the expansion of games last gen in necessary media space. Games at first were on CD but gradually moved to DVD. Hell, Morrowind fit fine on a CD. I would think that the same thing would happen this gen.

[cpiasminc]

Honestly dude, do you even know what you're talking about? I get so lost in your posts that I have to wonder how you're able to keep track without cybernetic enhancements of some kind
I always wondered how many people who were otherwise interested in getting into game programming get scared off by technical ramblings amongst those who are actually doing it. I often find myself in the middle of a post habitually going on and on into detail and then thinking, "that's a bit over the top." Or occasionally just typing without thinking too hard, and then realizing a minute later that I just stamped out half a page worth of text.

It's actually quite simple when you understand the underlying forces. In this case, it's only a few hundred steps from 1+1=2 to Fourier and Taylor series, and spherical harmonics is a hop away from that.

[yoshaw]

That's why you can download the extra content off Xbox Live Marketplace.

That's like whack. Because then some developers might not get as much attention as the most favored ones. The blu-ray extras would highlight everyone because people would see them all since they paid for that disc.

Besides, you're not factoring in the people worldwide still without a decent internet connection. 2 million Live users don't compare to 100million offline users mate. That online no. will surely increase next-gen but not going to surpass the offline market. Bluray is the best route. Online might be suitable for US, UK, Japan only NOT worldwide.

[Domination]

That's why you can download the extra content off Xbox Live Marketplace. Anyways here's the list of DVD9 games for PS2.

1. 8.05GB USA Xenosaga
2. 8.02GB PAL Champions of Norrath
3. 7.94GB JAP GRAN TURISMO Concept(Traditional Chinese Version) SCPS55903
4. 7.94GB JAP Xenosaga
5. 7.93GB USA God of War
6. 7.74GB USA Champions of Norrath (SLUS: 20565)
7. 4.3GB NTSC DISC 1 champions of norath 8. 4.24GB DISC 2 champions of norath
9. 7.55GB USA The Guy Game (Mature Rating)
10. 7.20GB JAP Sakura Wars Atsuki Chishiyo Ni
11. 6.47GB USA Madden 2005 Collectors Edition
12. 6.13GB PAL Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance
13. 5.99GB USA MGS2: Substance
14. 4.95GB USA GT4 (5,314,478,080 bytes)
15. 5.95GB 50 Cent Bullet Proof
16. 8.00GB Wild Arms: Alter Code F

There could have been tons more but due to many incompatibilities with the older PS2s and reading the discs, the publishers have been wary on releasing them on DVD9s. (ie: see Wild Arms: Alter Code F)

Yet, the most amusing part about that is those not thinking too far ahead actually being astound by next-gen's first generation titles running on such a disc. The first PlayStation started off just like this by moving from one CD to four CDs at the end of it lifecycle, and so did the PlayStation 2. It moved from one CD to dual layer DVDs. There is close to a definite possibility that the PlayStation 3 is going to start off the very same way but only on Blu Ray this time. People say this can't be achieved, but I think if developers and Sony are really serious about HD content, it alone is going to devour the capacity on these discs in no time, and that's without the inclusion of everything else that will server as an importance to games.

[Sypher]

Bluray is a necessity for games.........in about 2-3 years. Once most devs get past the learning curve of the new consoles, we will easily see 10+GB games. Not only that, but it will prove to be much cheaper to put all versions on one disk(PAL, NTSC, JAP, etc.). I honestly don't think that ANY game will fill up a BD, but my guess is the cap will be about 25GB.

btw will PS3 use Dual layer BD?

[yoshaw]

btw will PS3 use Dual layer BD?

PS3's BD Drive will be able to accept the Dual Layer BD i.e both 25GB(single layer) and the upcoming 50GB(dual layer) and then some speed upgrades possible with future firmwares. I did that with my SonyDRU500A burner - 2X to 4X with a single firmware download.

Previous standards of CD and DVD are supported as well. It'll be fully backwards compatible with all variations of CD and DVD created to date.

[Lekko]

What about switching layers on the discs? Doesn't it take a few seconds to re-adjust the laser to read the second layer? I know on many DVDs when you jump to a special feature, it takes a second or two for the system to respond because it is switching layers. Does switching layers have any real effect on drive speed in games?

[Helios]

Does switching layers have any real effect on drive speed in games?

Depends on if the game is streaming data or not. Streaming works on the principle of constantly filling the cache with data, its just like a factory with what you see on the screen being the end of the line and the laser on the other pumping in data. The difference is that a slight stutter when the laser refocuses for the second layer wont cause a stutter in gameplay, because the data isnt being used that rapidly.

If the game doesnt stream data then you might get a small stutter when it does load(when you open a door, go down a new cooridoor or whatever).

[Voidler]

In the most generic sense, Spherical Harmonics are Fourier Series projected onto a sphere (as opposed to a linear axis). In the graphics sense, what it is for is getting a "filtered" form of precomputed lighting. Obviously, a complete lighting solution would require infinitely many coefficients per pixel, but the idea is that the first few coefficients will cover the lowest frequency (i.e. smoothest) components of lighting.

The precomputed lighting itself can be any method and contain all sorts of components, but the point is that it gets convolved about each of the basis functions, and that convolution gets you coefficients regarding the radiance of light off those surfaces in each of those bases. In-game, what you do is transform your local lighting setup into those bases, and feed in the vectors and colors and multiply by your basis functions. Bear in mind that because it's pre-computed, it's only safe for static and/or rigid geometry.

In a visual sense, you can think of it like having the lights in a scene from the point of view of an object or a single point, and that creates an image, and then you severely blur that image and bias specific directions, and the sum of all the pixels in that image is your color with respect to this particular bias. Other severities of blurring and directional biases are also used, and then you sum all these results together and that's your color.

Anyway, most people go up to quadratic order solutions, which requires 9 coefficients, and if you want detail at the per-pixel level then you need 3 textures full of coefficients for this.Eh, that didn't really help I don't think.. Is it basically causing a big contrast between lighting on surfaces? Or am I reading wrong?

[cpiasminc]

What about switching layers on the discs? Doesn't it take a few seconds to re-adjust the laser to read the second layer? I know on many DVDs when you jump to a special feature, it takes a second or two for the system to respond because it is switching layers. Does switching layers have any real effect on drive speed in games?
Not quite on the order of *seconds*... but it is a while. More like tenths of a second which, from the point of view of the CPU, is a vast expanse of time. It's about the same as fresh seeks or accesses. In any case, IIRC, the E3 presentations suggested that dual-layer BD wouldn't be used for games, and only for video playback. Sure that was E3 last year, but whatever.

Eh, that didn't really help I don't think.. Is it basically causing a big contrast between lighting on surfaces? Or am I reading wrong?
Maybe I should try this a different way... It's actually the exact opposite. It's used in practice for *low* frequency lighting simulations. That is to say, soft, smooth, low-variance, low-contrast lighting solutions akin to what you'd expect of radiosity. In theory, you could continue the process out to infiniti and get a complete solution, but that's not possible in practice.

The idea with a Fourier Series is that you're breaking up some arbitrary curve into a sum of sines/cosines of various magnitudes and frequencies. This in turn breaks up the curve into high and low frequency parts. Spherical harmonics is the same thing, except that instead of being about a curve on an axis, it's about variation of some value with respect to direction in 3-D. The idea is that you take an offline lighting solution (raytracing, radiosity, SSS, photon mapping, whatever) and break it down into a sum of frequency components with respect to direction. You can think of "frequency" in this case to refer to how sharply detailed the lighting is (higher = more detailed). The lowest frequency is obviously ambient (where everything is a constant). In practice we only use the lowest 3 levels (9 coefficients) for a 2nd-order solution, which isn't very detailed at all, but you can add on other things to it.

By getting the strength of all these components as measured against some offline lighting, we can estimate how these offline lighting algorithms will behave under arbitrary lighting by putting dynamic lights into the same basis space as used in the offline simulations. So for instance, we can have a nice GI solution in a generic lighting situation and get spherical harmonic coefficients for the lowest frequency components of the solution in order to simulate how that same GI solution would work out with a different set of lights.

[Smokey]

i love reading your posts cpi i dont understand but its good to know you do & a few others :)

[cliffbo]

i'm going to agree with you cpiasminc in a vain attempt to sound inteligent.

[Arnaud_M]

I am not as proficient in 3D algorithms are Cpiasminc, but if he allows me, and for the fun of the exercise, I will try to give a more down to earth explanation of what he just explained (Cpiasminc please, correct me if I am wrong, even though I know some things about 3D, I am by no mean an expert).

When lighting 3D world with sources of lights, it is generally quite easy to simulate realistically what is called "direct lighting" that is: the effects of ray of lights on objects, when such rays come directly from the light source. But, it is much more difficult (actually, not difficult per se, but computationnaly intensive) to simulate the BOUNCING of rays of light from one object to another. For instance, picture a room with a white wall, a light bulb, and a pure red ball against the wall. The red color of the ball will slightly tint the wall, because rays of light will bounce off the ball (and only red rays will bounce, because the ball is red) and onto the wall, sligthly coloring it. This is called "indirect lighting" because the light hitting the wall does not come directly from the bulb, but from the ball.

This effect is too costly to simulate in real time, it currently needs huge computer resources and complex algorithms (such as those use in Maya or 3DS MAX). So, a solution was found for real time games, and this is the solution that Cpiasminc explained. Basically, the solution is quite simple:

1) first, you use a 3D program (not Maya exactly, but something with similar algorithms), you give to it the 3D model of your scene (at least the static objects: walls, static furniture, roof, but no monster or player), the list of static lights (thus excluding player's torches and the like) and you ask the program to render the scene, WITH THE BOUNCED LIGHT. It will take some hours for just one image.

2) then, you choose a specific point of view in this scene, say the middle of the room for an indoor scene

3) then, from this viewpoint, you look in every direction, but without moving, to obtain a 360 degree view of the room from your fixed viewpoint (looking at each wall, the floor, the ceiling, etc in every possible direction). You record both the light intensity, and the distance to the first object.

4) now, you have a kind of 360 image of the room, from a fixed point of view, with lots of information. Too much actually. So to artificially avoid artifacts at a latter stage, and to lighten the computing load probably, you blur the image using specific mathematics algorithms.

5) now, in game, when the player is in this room, you used this blurred image to "project" the precomputed light (and at this stage you make use also of the distance precomputed in 3), and you superpose this information with the dynamic real-time lighting provided by the player torch, or by any other dynamic lights

Cpiasminc, is it close to what you explained ? If not, could you adapt it while staying at the same technical level ? What I know I did not get from your explanation is : how many such "lighting hemispheres" are precomputed for each room ? Just one ? Or several ?

Arnaud

[cpiasminc]

That sounds about right, though I would add that the example you bring up is a frozen case (nothing can ever move in the game if you want the lighting to still be correct) because not only is the lighting preserved, but also the shadows. Also, the lighting in your test case needs to be generic enough to cover all possible lighting conditions you'll have in the game (i.e. light coming from all directions at once.

As far as the matter of how many lighting "spheres" you need per sample point, it's a matter of how far you want to go up in detail. But as far as how many per room, you're going to either be doing this at the vertex level or if you want to put this into a map, then you're doing it per texel. Bear in mind that what you store in the end isn't really the "blurred image" but something like a weighted average of all the pixels in the image. In theory, you could do it per object, but the results won't be very accurate unless everything in the room is an approximation of a sphere.

The least-detailed of these blurred images you project is so blurry that practically every pixel in the image is the same color, and there's no bias when you take your weighted average (every direction in the 360-degree range is considered equally). The next 3 are "half as blurry" as the last, if that makes any sense, but the 3 weighted averages you take of the less blurry image are loosely biased to the X, Y, and Z axes respectively. Then if you want to keep going, there are 5 more you can do with a yet less blurry image that are not-quite-as-loosely biased to 45-degree angles and so on. And it keeps getting progressively less blurry and more severely biased averaging.

Okay... I hope I could stay within some realm of understandability. It's kind of hard for me to escape the way in which I myself understand things. And dumbing it down also makes me feel like I'm talking down to people.

[Arnaud_M]

Then if you want to keep going, there are 5 more you can do with a yet less blurry image that are not-quite-as-loosely biased to 45-degree angles and so on. And it keeps getting progressively less blurry and more severely biased averaging.


The more samples you take, the more accuratly you divide the space, and thus the more spatial resolution you get. And I guess, the heavier the computations become (and the higher the memory needs are) when you reconstruct the image in realtime ?


Okay... I hope I could stay within some realm of understandability. It's kind of hard for me to escape the way in which I myself understand things. And dumbing it down also makes me feel like I'm talking down to people.


Not everyone has your level of expertise you know :-D

Arnaud

[cpiasminc]

The more samples you take, the more accuratly you divide the space, and thus the more spatial resolution you get. And I guess, the heavier the computations become (and the higher the memory needs are) when you reconstruct the image in realtime ?
Yep. It grows quadratically... if you want n levels of detail, you need n*n amount of data to represent it because you're dealing with a projection onto a surface (i.e. 2-dimensional).

[GUNDAMSEED]

Blu ray is a must to me , every game should have 5.1 sound . Hell games like FF ,MGS,GT,DMC.GOW, should have 7.1 sound . For game play and movies. This gen when ever it came to saving space the first thing that went is sound .It's a shame when you have a 7.1 set up and most games of ps2 only use DD 2.0.

[BillCosby]

Blu-ray is definatly needed for next gen games. The x360 is already showing that it needs more space for its games. EA's Tiger Woods game is a prime example the x360 has fewer characters and courses than the xbox and ps2 versions because they felt it was a good trade off. Higher poly models, better texture mapping, and better lighting effects/ ammt. of content. The same goes for PGR 3. Microsoft has already shot themselves in the foot by not adopting a next-gen disk format for their "next-gen" console.

[Arnaud_M]

This is the beauty of Sony strategy: M$ had, practically, no other choice but to use DVD. M$ licensing BluRay was probably out of the question for them, and trying to push HD-DVD was far too risky. Sony is in the content musiness (both movies and music) but Microsoft is not. Sony is the current market leader, M$ only a distant second. Sony, by pushing for BluRay in the PS3 actually left M$ with either the choice of DVD (safe, but dangerous for the long term in terms of complex games support as you underlined, and for the public perception of the machine), or the taking of a very huge risk with HD-DVD, which they chose not to take. Sony is smart :-)

Arnaud

[LaLiLuLeLo]

even if blu-ray loses the hd video battle, it will still serve the ps3 as a capable and spacious storage medium for games. Something I've thought about from the beginning...:shrug:

[cliffbo]

even if blu-ray loses the hd video battle, it will still serve the ps3 as a capable and spacious storage medium for games. Something I've thought about from the beginning...:shrug:

but if HD-DVD wins, no HD movies for PS3 :(

[BillCosby]

explain why the ps3 wouldnt have hd movies. Because its my understanding that blu-ray drives can play hd-dvd's and blu-ray disks. (correct me if im wrong)

[cliffbo]

explain why the ps3 wouldnt have hd movies. Because its my understanding that blu-ray drives can play hd-dvd's and blu-ray disks. (correct me if im wrong)

where did you get that from!? not at all. it plays cds,dvd,bds not hd-dvd.

[BillCosby]

I thought i had read on cnet that phillips was releasing a bd player that would also play hd-dvd's sry if im wrong, besides blu-ray wont lose. Like ive said before. Before Hd-dvd even gets 1mil install base blu-ray will have like 6 mil. even though hd-dvd has already (or will very soon) launched.

[cpiasminc]

explain why the ps3 wouldnt have hd movies. Because its my understanding that blu-ray drives can play hd-dvd's and blu-ray disks. (correct me if im wrong)
Not true... Not unless you mean standard DVDs that have HD content on them ("HD DVDs" as opposed to "HD-DVDs"?). Though it is physically and programmatically possible to create a drive that will support both, it won't come from a company that isn't supporting both formats.

[cliffbo]

I thought i had read on cnet that phillips was releasing a bd player that would also play hd-dvd's sry if im wrong, besides blu-ray wont lose. Like ive said before. Before Hd-dvd even gets 1mil install base blu-ray will have like 6 mil. even though hd-dvd has already (or will very soon) launched.

your right about phillips i think but thats not the same thing as PS3. i'm with you on the blu-ray not losing. it isn't going to happen.

[BillCosby]

Well if it was programmable you could be able to download an upgrade or possibly an emulator. I feel kindof stupid by bringing up the fact that it could happen through firmware, but maybe it could.

[cliffbo]

Well if it was programmable you could be able to download an upgrade or possibly an emulator. I feel kindof stupid by bringing up the fact that it could happen through firmware, but maybe it could.

hey man theres no one more ignorant than me in this department. think this is one for the techs :)

[Leedogg]

I thought i had read on cnet that phillips was releasing a bd player that would also play hd-dvd's sry if im wrong, besides blu-ray wont lose. Like ive said before. Before Hd-dvd even gets 1mil install base blu-ray will have like 6 mil. even though hd-dvd has already (or will very soon) launched.

side note: The HD-DVD player has been released

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7652523&type=product&id=1134699969167

it costs $499.99 and only supports 1080i

Just think you will probably get PS3 and 1080p cheaper than that player. :pepper:

[Z]

side note: The HD-DVD player has been released

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....1346999 69167

it costs $499.99 and only supports 1080i

Just think you will probably get PS3 and 1080p cheaper than that player.
with dual 1080p outputs!

[Applefiend]

Yes, Yes and Yes again.

Obviously if there's current generation games that are maxxing out on 9GB disks you don't want to launch on maxed out technology. All those extra meshes, normal maps, huge game areas, high quality music and sound effects, they gotta go somewhere.

But of course most games will be rattling around the BD ROM,and this is cool as we get room for extra features, behind the scenes videos, copies of the old PS2 games as bonuses.

Who's up for God of War 3, with enhanced copies of GOW1 as a bonus on the disk? If the space is empty anyway... Maybe it'll get used.

Tomb Raider Legend 2 with Tomb Raider 1 through 4 on the disk. Namco Tekken 7 with demos and movies of the entire Namco PS3 line up on the disk. Hell yeah BD is going to be cool for games. Good for the gamers.

Necessary? Well when the 360 crack that's been developed is installed on everyone's 360 and everyone is downloading and burning these games instead of buying them, hell yeah BD is required. DVD burners are common as muck, I have at least 3 of them, Blu Ray burners are pretty rare.

How about that. PS3 gets Directors Cut with extras, everyone else... Hmmm...

[Arnaud_M]

I really hope that Sony (and PS3 developpers) are listening to you ! If given the choice between FF - 13 standard edition, and FF-13 gold edition with previous FF playable under emulation, I would not hesitate and pick the gold edition (for 5-10$ more maximum though). And some form of "behind the scenes" videos for games development would be fabulous !! And would cost what, 5 or 6 days or filming throughout the develpment, two persons for the script and the camera, two persons for film preparation under Adobe Premiere, pfff, practically nothing compared to the cost of the development itself. Imagine a "bloopers" section with the early AI behaviour :-D (such as the example given by Oblivion developpers, where merchants in a town were slaughtered by the town people who considered them as dealers for drugs :-)).

Arnaud

[Applefiend]

Yup, exactly.

Soundtrack album free on the disk. Uploadable preview video to watch on your PSP, million possibilities.

Tekken 5 on PS2 shows the way. Here you have Tekken 5, awesome,incredible, PS2.5 game. Tekken 1,2, and 3 given away for free. Namco Star Blade unlockable, given away for free...

But it's not enough. We need... Video tips for Tekken by Tekken masters. Documentary footage of a Tekken Tournament, A big Namco game unlockable, Klonoa 2 maybe? The Tekken Anime, it's old and nobody buys it anymore, but as an extra, sweet. And Tekken 6 itself? No storage constraints, enough room for the game.

And with regards to Tekken 6, if you're giving away Tekken 5 for free, where is it going to go? No room for it, it's too big! DVD ROM just isn't up to the demands of giving away last gen content as bonuses.

'nuf said. Blu Ray rocks man, it's one of the many reasons I favour PS3.

[frosty]

I just can't wait to play Tekken online in a true "tournament". I will be the king of the iron fist! beware n00bs! lol.

[Handycrap101]

I didn't read through this thread but I will say that Blu-ray isn't absolutly necessary for next gen... but it could become necessary. Aswell as piracy protection, this is something devs like to see. And as for HD-DVD, they can't honestly expect to compete in players against the PS3. Also the product itself, Blu-ray, is just better in every which way. I would have loved to seen a unity between the 2 but it's a shame Toshiba will have to go down like this. Now I'm not saying Blu-ray will necessary be the next media fomat but I am saying that Blu-ray will prevail over HD-DVD.

P.S. I would love to see how crisp an game looks on one of Toshiba's SED's BTW...GT5 in 1080p GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

[Viano]

I just can't wait to play Tekken online in a true "tournament". I will be the king of the iron fist! beware n00bs! lol.

Do not forget what you said, lol ♪

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Yup, exactly.

Soundtrack album free on the disk. Uploadable preview video to watch on your PSP, million possibilities.

Tekken 5 on PS2 shows the way. Here you have Tekken 5, awesome,incredible, PS2.5 game. Tekken 1,2, and 3 given away for free. Namco Star Blade unlockable, given away for free...

But it's not enough. We need... Video tips for Tekken by Tekken masters. Documentary footage of a Tekken Tournament, A big Namco game unlockable, Klonoa 2 maybe? The Tekken Anime, it's old and nobody buys it anymore, but as an extra, sweet. And Tekken 6 itself? No storage constraints, enough room for the game.

And with regards to Tekken 6, if you're giving away Tekken 5 for free, where is it going to go? No room for it, it's too big! DVD ROM just isn't up to the demands of giving away last gen content as bonuses.

'nuf said. Blu Ray rocks man, it's one of the many reasons I favour PS3.

I see a lot of that being downloadable content.

[cliffbo]

looks like vista is going to get blu-ray at some point in the future so its safe to say that even MS know its innevitable.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php?id=138063

[venomv]

That doesn't suprise me at all, I thought they were planning thar a long time ago.

[yoshaw]

I just can't wait to play Tekken online in a true "tournament". I will be the king of the iron fist! beware n00bs! lol.

Shuob da ze!

You're on my hitlist for Tekken tournaments Frosty. Don't complain when your characters get repeatedly pwned bigtime. Hell yeaahhh!!

:cheers: Can't wait to play online matches with fellow board members :)