E-mpire game development team proposal.

[makeitlookreal]

Hello Everyone,

I am not sure where is the most appropriate place to post this so if it needs to be moved I will not at all be offended.

Many of us are interested in games. That should be obvious. In addition to that many of us have particular interests such as art, coding, computer hardware, gameplay, and even writing. There are many people here with many different talents and skills. Many people have even stated that it is their future goal to get into game development.

So this is an idea I am tossing on the table if anyone is interested. Why don't we form an E-mpire game development team that would work to create a potential PS3 game? Those of us with appropriate skills would volunteer to fill different roles and eventually there is a small chance we could create an actual game. If nothing else, even if the effort fails misrably, it would have given us the chance to "get our feet wet" so to speak. By participating in such an effort we would learn more about the PS3, learn what is involved when it comes to creating a game, obviously enhance our ability to work cooperatively in a team, enhance our communication skills, and at least have some fun in the process!

So far Nameless and myself are interested in this idea. I would love to work on a storyline and dialog and nameless is interested in coding and level design. Obviously, we would need others to join up if any of you are interested. What do all of you think about this idea? What are your feelings?

I am not sure of everything that would be involved in this effort. Obviously, we will probably not have access to a Cell chip or a PS3 right away, and certainly not a SDK. But I have read there are simulators online for the Cell processor and perhaps we could utilize that for the game code.

Perhaps we would gather enough people and resources to create a great looking game. Or on the other hand it might just be something very basic. Regardless how it turns out we would have learned a lot in the process and perhaps it will help some of us find out if we are really interested in this field.

Additionally, it will help us gain respect for those developers who do this professionally.

If anyone is interested please respond to this thread. If this idea becomes popular I would hope the MODS would give this effort it's own section in the forums.

Again, this idea might be appealing to some or it might not be. This is just something I would like to throw out there.

[Mach]

That's a very good idea. One of the things I've set out in my network direction plans is to make E-mpire network a developer friendly place. I already established the Official Developer Alliance board where NeoPong, official DS, GBA, and PSP licensed developers, (and soon to come others) are located. We encourage indie houses to use our network to their advantage as well.

We actually have a new publication coming soon that will act as a platform for indie developers.

[Raitei]

Well, if it goes ahead, i'm on board.
Personally Interested in Art, Concept art LeveL Design (Just drawing not actual invironments), Character creation (Design and also bio) and wouldnt mind doing textures

[D3adcell]

Yeah I am interested but, we do not have the neccessary programs for a full blown 3d game (motion capture, etc) and the fact that it takes alot of time. I think we would be better off working on a PC game. Even if its just a simple 2d game, aslong as it is fun people will play it.

I am interested and this is what I am going to school for. Right now though I just have the basic knowledge of C++ and coding in it. My main language is PHP, JSP, and Visual Basic which are not something you would use in this situation. If all goes according to plan though I should be in a C++ class next semester.

[venomv]

If things turn out like we want (how often does that happen?) then we should be able to make whatever we want on the PS3 which would mean we are all working on the same hardware, and people with crappy computers wouldn't be out in the cold.

That being said, count me in I should be starting my Game Design degree not long after the PS3 comes out. While I obviously won't be learning a whole lot at first, I think I could help out.

[makeitlookreal]

Personally, I have always had an interest in game development for a very long time, but never really dove into it. My father had a Commadore 64 and wrote a few very basic games, and ever since then in the back of my mind I have thought about how interesting it would be to design a game. I am really glad that both of you support the idea. I hope we can get enough people together so we can form a group, figure out exactly what we will need computationally to get started (hardware and software), delegate responsibilities, and start our own section on the forums.

We will want to include a decent number of people in our actual working group, but at the same time don't want it so large that communication becomes difficult. But I don't think that would become a problem unless we had a LOT of people want to participate (which of course would not be a bad thing at all) and then we could form two groups. :-)

The main thing we will need to have is patience, because most of us will probably be very new to game development and will have a LOT to learn. But if we work well together, try our best to communicate effecitvely, and be tolerant of each others learning curves I think we will do fine.

If anyone else is interested please make a post and give your input.

Thanks to everyone who is interested so far!

[makeitlookreal]

That would be very, very cool. If we could each purchase a PS3 and develop on the actual PS3 hardware that would solve some of our problems. However, I would hope far before that we would have already been making some progress on the game.

Perhaps if we get a large enough group together we could pool our resources together to purchase some of the software we would need for such an effort. Again, I am NOT very informed about all the software that would be needed, but I assume those that are doing graphics and programming would especially need some special software.

Please feel free to just brainstorm and discuss ideas on this thread. We are just trying to get a feel for what we want to do and how we should go about doing it.

[SuperLuigiBros]

I love the idea. Last year I made my folio with a theme of 'video games' where I did heaps and heaps of work on character design and 3D modelling (not on a computer, I made an actual model/statue thing) and some more stuff. Mainly I did heaps of drawings/sketches and some photoshop work.

This folio then got me into a Games Design course at uni, which Ill be starting at the start of next year. I wouldve started it this year but i defered to earn some money. Anyway, if this idea takes off Ill be even more of a help then.

As a matter of fact I was thinking about something like this the other day. I have a few nice ideas for a few different games (story/gameplay/etc).

One more thing though... To me, starting with a PS3 game is a little bit...overzealous maybe? For people who have never had experience in making games, goign for a full-blown PS3 game is too much. I was thinking making something for PC, but have it limited to the graphics of a DS maybe... Personally I like sprites because they would be more fun to make. A PC game would definatly be the way to go since (being a Nintendo fan) I not very excited about the PS3. PC would eliminate alot of problems.

[Negativity]

May I suggest an isometric role-playing game?

[makeitlookreal]

Damarus,

Please feel free to elaborate on an isometric role playing game... Is that some sort of exercise game?

The Cube,

First of all I want to say that I am not the leader of this group by any means but just happened to be the one to come up with the idea. So I am in NO WAY the decision maker. But personally I would love to make a game for the PS3. Basically, I am not very excited about the prospect of PC gaming, but the Cell processor seems very, very facinating to me. Also, by at some point all of us working on a PS3 it could help standardize the platforms we are doing our work on. However, I am open to whatever suggestions are posted on this thread. I hope we can all brainstorm and discuss every possibility and weight the pros and cons of each.

You see, depending on the ammount of people become a part of this group, how devoted members become, and the skill of people involved we could either make a very basic game or this effort could snow ball into a very significant project. We just don't know yet!

Personally, I like to aim really high, work hard, and see what happens.

[SuperLuigiBros]

Im also not very excited about PC's. Nintendo is where its at for me. But to make a game we're going to be working on PC's, so we'll all have one. Im definatly not going to be getting a PS3, so I wont be able to help out there. I know that Im not essential to this project, but if we make a PC game, then everyone working on it will be able to play it and to me it just seems to be the most fair way of doing it.

Also, I dont mind working on a big project first off, but I believe it would be benificial to start on a small project and refine our skills, learn whats going on, and then tackle a big project when we at least know a little bit of how to do things better.

We can still work hard on a smaller project, but then aim high on the main one. (This is how I usually go about doing alot of my main art projects. I do a smaller one to experiement with ways of doing things and then I have choices of which ways of doing things i like better...If that makes sense).

...Just a few of my thoughts..

[BugenhagenXIII]

I'm interested, but I don't really have the know how...yet. I've taken two C/C++ courses (technically they're software design classes, but they taught in mostly C++, with a little bit of C. They focused on Object Oriented Programming, and used C++ to demostrate.) I've never done any huge projects, mostly just one or two classes and a small main function to test them.

I'd be happy to help in any way I could, even if it was just testing.

[makeitlookreal]

Those are great thoughts the Cube. We need everyone to brainstorm and keep talking. There are all kinds of things that could be done.

[IEatFriedPikmin]

i dont know if a ps3 game would be a good idea. dont the developer units cost a nice pretty penny?

I think a PC, DS, or gba game would be better as well.

I am familiar with some programing, and can help with some fmvs or whatever.

[Phoenix]

The PS3 is practically the worst possible console to develop for if you're not a big development company. If it goes ANYWHERE besides a PC, it would be a handheld. Even the Wii would be too expensive to develop for.

[venomv]

MILR, isometric is the veiwing angle.

http://www.computeruser.com/resources/dictionary/definition.html?lookup=2794
Definition for: isometric view

A way of drawing a three-dimensional object without the distortions created by perspective. In a drawing based on true perspective, parallel lines converge in a vanishing point; this is the way objects look to us in real life. An isometric drawing shows that parallel lines in actuality do not converge, and represents the object's real proportions and spatial relationships; the isometric view is most useful for technical drawings.

Here are some games with isometric views. It works very well with 2D real-time RPG's.

Ultima Online
http://img.lenta.ru/internet/2004/11/03/market/picture.jpg

Diablo 2 (not positive, it looks isometric to me, but may just be close.)
http://www.gamingbliss.com/games/2001/diablo2expansion.jpg

@PheonixPhire Using the PS3 the way I see it is to get everyone using the same hardware, but PC is probably the best bet, you are right there.

Accually the biggest worry for me is if anyone here could get the CELL functioning correctly that could help. I have heard there are programs that help, but they wouldn't work as well as accually know how to do it.

Edit: appearently I cut off the end of my sentance.

[Phoenix]

The PS3 is extremely difficult and expensive to develop for. I doubt anyone would have the experience necessary to make heads or tails of the development kit.

[SuperLuigiBros]

Isometric drawings have 45 degree angles. The other type (I forget the name) is 70-20. But those games are boring visually. A 2d sidescroller would be the way to go because they are always fun. A game like Mario Bros. would be easy because once the 'engine' is done, you just slap everything together. (Or I assume thats how its done, I actually have no idea :))

[D3adcell]

PC would be the best, besides once on the PC if done well enough you could always make a 'port' of sorts. Although I don't think you are ultimatly trying to get a ps3 game but a linux game. PS3 is way out of our league. Especially if its a 2d game, there is just no sense in making a game for ps3 in 2d.

I was thinking either a game like the cube has mentioned, a 2d sidescroller type of game but with upgrades and kind of like a beat em up maybe. Or maybe a 2d fighting game, or even an RPG thats like the old school RPGS of Final Fantasy 6 or Lunar.

But if you are thinking of making something on the PS3 even if we did get a 2d game made and running, how would we distribute it?

[SuperLuigiBros]

^Yeh thats another thing, if its a PC game we can give it out as a free download or something exclusive to E-mpire.

[makeitlookreal]

Hmm.... all of those are very good comments.

I don't think we should suddenly try to make a PS3 console "game" at first, but more or less utilize the PS3 as a "computer" utilizing the Cell to design a game. Obviously, to make an "official" PS3 game would be super, super expensive and out of our reach. But to use the Cell processor for home programming is supposed to be totally allowed by Sony from what I understand. I hope I am making myself clear. I know I am not explaining this very well. But what I am most interested in is making a game utilizing the Cell processor.

HOwever, this is NOT "my" team and I am NOT the "leader". I want this to be a group effort and if someone else wants to step up and organize that is perfectly fine with me.

[venomv]

But if you are thinking of making something on the PS3 even if we did get a 2d game made and running, how would we distribute it?

Sony have alluded that they are gonna support the homebrew comunity on the PS3, don't know how far that reachs, or if they are just messing with us (they obvoiusly don't want homebrew on PSP, but maybe they have realized its an endless fight). But they may offer the solution to that problem.

I never thought we where gonna make a full-blown PS3 game, from what I see I highly doubt we will have anywhere near the knowledge to do it, or the manpower if we did.

[Saibo]

But if you are thinking of making something on the PS3 even if we did get a 2d game made and running, how would we distribute it?

http://us.playstation.com/beyond/welcome.html

or you can upload to filefront and other type of services.



If things turn out like we want (how often does that happen?) then we should be able to make whatever we want on the PS3 which would mean we are all working on the same hardware, and people with crappy computers wouldn't be out in the cold.

That being said, count me in I should be starting my Game Design degree not long after the PS3 comes out. While I obviously won't be learning a whole lot at first, I think I could help out.

definitely gotta wait for the PS3 to come out, and see how they support homebrew...Im not a fan of PC games, because of the Keyboard/mouse they would limit the type of game you can create. I prefer console controllers. For me its homebrew on the PS3 or nothing.


you dont have to make a complex game, look at Loco Roco, its fun and it simple. And it should sell good. dont worry about selling games yet(lets focus on getting one done first). Something simple but in 3D? First you need to figure out what genre you want to create. Also instead of focusing on a full blown game, just create a demo(1-2 levels) with the proof od concept. You still need a engine, but its less work on the art side of things.

On the 3D front, when you have a team that span a whole globe, dont limit the software package they are allowed to us in production. Using Collada importer and exporter for most Digital Content Creation application should remedy the issue. Collada 1.4 supports animation clips, and pretty much anything else you need(mostly the essentail things). In short, its the perfect way to share data, transfer data between different 3D apps. Because in a ideal world, everyone would used the same application, but in reality thats not so(some people prefer 3DSMAX, Maya, etc). Personally i prefer Mirai(which a new version should be out by August) for animation and Modo/Mudbox for modeling.

Lastly, your going to need a programmer, someone that can create the engine..CPI? ;P I know his interested in working on some PS3 homebrew(but i think his waiting to see how free it will be first)..

CPI would be the perfect person to ask game development related question to, so PM him. I'd to see him experiment on the PS3 with EPI and lightcuts, to see if they can be done fast enough for realtime speeds(30-60) @ 720 P.

[Nameless]

I agree, developing for the PS3 is very ambitious unless we plan to just run the game on emulation software. I would suggest creating a title for the mobile platform or PC, we could consider J2ME or OpenGL ES/BREW. If we target mobile gaming we would need to use emulators on our PCs.

Also, we need to determine who is taking the lead on this initiative.
It will require a lot of coordination considering every team member will be working remotely. Perhaps we could set up a sharesite for data or a FTP to store code and assets?

[D3adcell]

I know that using a keyboard/mouse can be kind of annoying for certain games. But we could do a game even like Diablo or something, couldn't really make it online though I don't think.

I'm just thinking right now using the Cell is going to be too much for us, especially since we have no experience developing games. We should start small and work our way up.

Also like I said earlier, if we can make a PC game, we can always port it to PS3 Linux later. Or even do a "e-mpire game 2" on the ps3. I won't be having the ps3 at launch, will probably be a year after.

[venomv]

Also like I said earlier, if we can make a PC game, we can always port it to PS3 Linux later. Or even do a "e-mpire game 2" on the ps3. I won't be having the ps3 at launch, will probably be a year after.

Yeah, that probably is best, probably anyone with experience won't be able to help much, if at all. And other people won't be getting one at launch or at all, so........

Guys, remember depending on the type of game we make we may need story writers, artists (concept drawing and such may be useful), and music (keyboard would probably be best). So even if you think you cannot help with the game (I think just about everyone here is smart enough to learn though) you can help with those.

Edit: Man, what the heck is wrong with my grammar these past few days, lol. Yay for 2000 posts!

[D3adcell]

I think the first thing we need to do is acquire the software we need and will be using. Then we can have some time to experiment with it get used to using it a little.

Maybe sometime we can set up a time to meet up in the flashchat. Then we can do some brainstorming etc.

[Saibo]

well..count me out than, i guess i'll work on my own PS3 homebrew project :D

good luck to you guys!

BTW, CPI should lead since he has the experience and know how.

[Diablo]

definitely gotta wait for the PS3 to come out, and see how they support homebrew...Im not a fan of PC games, because of the Keyboard/mouse they would limit the type of game you can create. I prefer console controllers. For me its homebrew on the PS3 or nothing.
I don't want to derail the thread or anything, but anything you can do on a console controller, you can do on a keyboard/mouse, with the exception of Wii's whole crazyness. But the mouse is a replacement for that.

And I think this is a great idea, and an isometric RPG/Diablo type of game sounds like a good idea as well.

EDIT: Actually I just realized that there's no analog stick on a keyboard, or similar function except the arrow keys and the like. But that's it.

[venomv]

Yeah, arrow keys are put to shame in fighting games and the like.

I think the first thing we need to do is acquire the software we need and will be using. Then we can have some time to experiment with it get used to using it a little.

We should probably look for freeware to start off with (till we know what direction we are going, and who is doing what), we need to make sure that they don't have something in the EULA that prohibits commercial products from using them, though. Going to the chat would be a good plan, we should set something up in a few days or something.

[makeitlookreal]

Meeting in the chat sounds like a good idea. That way we could brainstorm on what we would need to do to get started.

Also, even if we started simple we could expand and improve the game as time goes by. Personally, I would not mind coming up with an idea for a large game but starting off lets say with low rez models and a small level. As we become more comfortable and go up the learning curve we can start expanding, making things look prettier, adding textures, adding more complex sound, etc.

I like the idea of a really, really good Zombie game. You see, most of the Zombie movies really don't make a lot of sense at all. A lot of things that happen are illogical and just stupid. If we could make one that had a really good story line I think it could be popular.

For example, I hate fast Zombies. These creatures are already resistant to bulletins anywhere but the head so making them run, jump, and chase after you really fast makes them far too powerful. Zombies are supposed to be creepy and scary, but making them run around makes them almost impossible to defeat.

Lets see... Perhaps the story could be about a young man and his girlfriend on a small college campus. His parents live a few hundred miles away, and her parents live further away. But really far away his parents have a cabin fully stocked with food and supplies. In the game you have to try and travel to his parents house, travel and pick up a few relatives, meet her family members, and then make it to the cabin far away from civilization.

Along the way certain family members would die and there would be all kinds of sub-adventures such as busting into a grocery store to find food, obtaining weapons, stealing vehicles and gas, etc.

For an added twist we could say that the Zombie plague has alarmed the vampires of the world that have been in hiding. Along the way you meet a few at night that know what has caused the Zombies to come alive, but they need someone who can withstand daylight to help them... part of the game could then be getting the family to safety and the other part joining the vampires to fight the invasion.

Obviously, Vampires have been around for a very, very long time and would not want their world to be destroyed by Zombies.

Of course this is an early plot, but an idea.

[masteratt]

I am good with script and character realisation so I'll be more than glad to help with that.

Also I am very talented at directing but I don't think we will need that kind of advanced direction in this particular project.

Well, if this does get underway, I'll happily work on the script and story.

[Raitei]

Well. Again, i'd love to do this, but we would have to set realistic times for everyone participate (on chat and such)

Im down for character creations and general concept art.

Makes an infinate amount more sense to make this for PC then port if we want. On PC most people already have a hold of different coding languages and different concepts but going into a next gen console would have us starting of cold

[edit] if we bust our asses, then maybe we could istrobut this game with next years e-mpire E3 disc?

[Gaul]

We should make diablo3... just to fuck with blizzard.

I don't know how to do anything required in a game... The only things i could help out with are things that don't require computer knowledge, such as the story or dialogue and such. I'd be glad to help in that respect though. I think I'm a descent writer

[masteratt]

We need one "main man" who can put everything together so this way when a task is set for an individual [art, dialogue etc], he does his bit and sends it to "the main man".
This way there will be no time zone trouble and if everyone stays commited, we'll have something sooner or later.
Task is set > Every guy does his bit > It all comes together thanks to Main Man.

Easy. Challenge comes in actually doing the tasks but I enjoy writing and I'm sure artists enjoy drawing etc so it will be a fun project for all.

Yipppeeee.

[Backlash]

It would be best if someone could set up an FTP server and when people get done they can just upload it. The FTP server could be your "main man".

I'd help out guys, but I'm already involved in another group making games, it would probably be a conflict of interest.

[satriales]

I would like to help if there is anything I can do. I've dabbled with programming, 3D modelling and animation but I'm rubbish at all 3 of those.

I was a games tester for EA/Criterion and tested Burnout: Revenge, Black, Battlefield 2 and Harry Potter GOF. So maybe I could help test or if there's any other simple tasks I would be happy to give them a go. I will also try and help with gameplay ideas if I can.

[makeitlookreal]

I am just very happy we have gotten a good response so far! It seems several of us are very interested in the project. What do you guys think the next step should be for us?

[Viper]

MILR, damn good idea man and I'd love to be a part of it.

I can do scripts, story and voice overs.

Raitei, sadly it's not possible to make it in time for the E-mpire E3 DVD.


I also have a few ideas one of which I've had for over 13 years now and no one has really done this simple concept yet. I'd like to create a cityscape that then becomes the basis for multiple games. The same city you race around is the same city that you blow shit up in or play your sims in or gets taken over by aliens, blah blah, you get the point. You become familiar with it, it becomes a 'character' so to speak and those incredibly familiar with the city will know shortcuts, secrets, etc...

We need to decide on a few things first so we know what positions we'll need.

2D or 3D
Game type (RPG, racing, fighting, action, fps, new genre????)
Development platform. Though PS3 may well be good, that means we must wait until mid Novemeber and costs will prohibit some of us. The PC has the most tools avaiable and many are free (I think).
Budgeting. For those involved, we need to evaluate our potential costs and all chip in evenly which also means we'll need a financial representative to handle it.

Basically, the more organized we can get, the better off the entire project will be.



Finally, I'd like to try and get ahold of Daniel Barras and see if he's interested.

[SuperLuigiBros]

I also have a few ideas one of which I've had for over 13 years now and no one has really done this simple concept yet. I'd like to create a cityscape that then becomes the basis for multiple games. The same city you race around is the same city that you blow shit up in or play your sims in or gets taken over by aliens, blah blah, you get the point. You become familiar with it, it becomes a 'character' so to speak and those incredibly familiar with the city will know shortcuts, secrets, etc...I like that idea, but I can imagine that it could get very boring running around the same old place all the time. Perhaps if it was it was on the same island and in one game it was prehistoric and there was a small mountain and then in another game that was set in the present there was a skyscraper and then in the future there could be a diferent futuristic skyscraper. Thats just a generic sort of idea, but you get the picture. I just find games get boring if its all the same, even if it is a cool idea.


This is what I think we should be doing:
We need to decide on a few things first so we know what positions we'll need.

2D or 3D 2D
Game type (RPG, racing, fighting, action, fps, new genre????)Adventure
Development platform. Though PS3 may well be good, that means we must wait until mid Novemeber and costs will prohibit some of us. The PC has the most tools avaiable and many are free (I think).PC, although I would love to make a DS or GBA game.
Budgeting. For those involved, we need to evaluate our potential costs and all chip in evenly which also means we'll need a financial representative to handle it. Again, Im not going to be buying a PS3 ever, and since some other people wont be getting a DS or anything, a PC is the only medium we can all agree on (at least some what).

Basically, the more organized we can get, the better off the entire project will be.Yep.



Finally, I'd like to try and get ahold of Daniel Barras and see if he's interested. Oh yeh, another great idea.

[D3adcell]

Well I think whatever type of game we decide on we should try and have a fun time doing it.

Oh and we might want to ask Lucent Beams boyfriend. I don't think he is registered here but he is in the business.

[venomv]

Check this out, GMax. (http://www.turbosquid.com/gmax) I haven't been able to get it running as I haven't got the registration e-mail yet, but it seems like it is pretty powerful. Based on 3DSMax and released by Autodesk as a free version of it.

[satriales]

I think the next step is for us to come up with a lot of game ideas.
Once we have a nice selection of ideas someone should make a poll and we can all vote to decide what game we want to go with.

I suggest we ignore technical and financial limitations for the moment and get as many ideas as we can. Later we can decide if they are feasible or not, or what needs to be changed in order to make them feasible.


I'll go and put my thinking cap on and try to come up with a idea myself...

[Phoenix]

How about a carpenter who has to climb up a building being constructed and rescue his girlfriend from an ape who throws barrels at him?

[D3adcell]

Well when is everyone available for a chat?

[satriales]

How about a carpenter who has to climb up a building being constructed and rescue his girlfriend from an ape who throws barrels at him?
Sounds great! You should call it Konkey Dong ;)

[venomv]

Well when is everyone available for a chat?

I'll free for the next 4 hours. I have a few ideas, but some may not be doable on the level we are on.

[makeitlookreal]

I will be around tonight if anyone wants to chat... I would love to chat with you guys about this idea.

[makeitlookreal]

Venum,

Let me know if you want to chat tonight. I am glad you like the idea for my game. For a LONG time I have been a Zombie movie fan, but find that many of them just don't make sense. I would love to make a game that makes sense, is consistant, and has decent explanations for things.

For example, I want at some point it to be explained EXACTLY what is making the dead walk, the limitations of the dead, their weaknesses, how they move, etc.

I think a good option would be that an ancient Vampire Warlock came across a virus that re-animated RECENTLY killed cells. We could say that it was a super mitochondrial booster that also upregulated certain other genes that allowed the dead to temporarily come alive. However, at the same time if you are infected while alive the mitochondrial boost will burn out all but the most basic neurological pathways which actually get enhanced.

For example, a dead person who is exposed to the chemical would have the basic functions of his brain restored and allow for movement. The muscles for example would have decayed somewhat so the dead person would only have limited movement. One aspect of the chemical is that it destroys the critical thinking part of the brain and basically hunger and rage are all that remains. But this hunger and rage is extreme.

Another aspect of the chemical is that in addition to boosting mitochondrial output it causes fast acting cancers, tumors, and growths. Zombies would not only be gross because they are dead/injured, but because they have super fast acting cancers all over them.

In addition to releasing this chemical the Warlock cursed the virus to entice cannibalism, but only for those with a soul. The Zombies do not have souls and only attack humans.

I personally get tired of the idea of Zombies wanting to eat human "brains" because "brains" would not impart "electrical" activity of any kind into the Zombie.

Basically, we would have an explanation as to what the Zombies are and why they want to attack humans. But of course the characters would only find this out later in the game.

If a normal ALIVE human is bitten and is given the virus he/she would have fits of rage until he or she suddenly had such high blood pressure that the person had a stroke, the higher brain functions would die, and then would become a zombie.

However, if you were bitten and took lots of high blood pressure meds, mental medications to releave stress, and could deal with the tumors growing on your body you could actually live lets say a matter of days before turning into a Zombie. During this period the virus would actually give you extra physical strength.

So we would have strong zombies that the only way to kill would be shooting them in the head, and obviously want to eat humans with souls. However, most of them would be slow moving unless they had recently been bitten.

The Vampires would want help getting at the main Vampire Warlock, killing him to break the curse of cannibalism (although zombies would still be violent just less likely to chase after you unless you provoked one of them), and to find the cure.

The twist at the ending could be that instead of finding a cure you find a way to kill everyone that has the virus. You basically want to go with the Vampires to obtain the items from the mystical underworld that will be needed to cast three curses. One to cause the virus to kill everyone that has lost their soul, another to heal anyone that is infected but has not lost their soul, and another for the virus to destroy itself so as to never be weaponized again.

Right now we are just brainstorming, but I would be happy to write a more formal proposal if anyone would like. But I am also interested in hearing everyone elses ideas.

[makeitlookreal]

I am in the chat by the way if anyoen wants to join me.

[venomv]

Me and MILR are in chat if anyone wants to join us.

LOL, guess we posted that about the same time.

[makeitlookreal]

By the way, if you drank the blood of a Vampire without being bitten (the vampire virus is only found in saliva) you could gain super human strength, speed, and agility.

[Saibo]

Check this out, GMax. (http://www.turbosquid.com/gmax) I haven't been able to get it running as I haven't got the registration e-mail yet, but it seems like it is pretty powerful. Based on 3DSMax and released by Autodesk as a free version of it.

dont use that app..its very limited. Im not a fan of blender3D, but its free also, it does animation, modeling, and you use it for commercail projects. blender3D has a decent UV unwrapping method(LSCM unwrapping). It also has a game engine built in, but its not "capable".

http://www.blender3d.com/cms/Home.2.0.html

here some game demo created with the engine in blender3d: http://www.blender3d.com/cms/Stand-alones.162.0.html

also check out the software in my sign..(shameless plug).

[makeitlookreal]

Some of us are in the chatroom and have been discussing several issues. Here are a few announcements:

1) For the time being we have decided to try and utilize the Action RPG GENRE of game.

2) We need to come up with a storyline for that GENRE that is original and unique.

3) We need a volunteer that knows how to code well to help us either choose or build an engine for our game. Quite frankly, those of us in the chat are for the most part not experienced in game design. If there is a volunteer with some know-how that would step forward it would be appreciated.

[Saibo]

that chatroom is not reliable for communication(too many people getting disconnected to often), we need a IRC channel for PSI-Next.

I also like the art direction of Yoshitaka Amano, and i think it would be great to follow it for this action RPG game. You can see his work here:

http://www.elevenland.com/amano/amano.php3

Also we were talking about doing a rpg base on other company IP. i mention they can sue you for that kinda stuff. Here is a classic example(they didnt sue but they(Square-Enix) got them to stop):

http://www.opcoder.com/projects/chrono/
http://www.opcoder.com/vgmusic/ (2 very beautiful music score from the cancel project).

Interesting bit:

"XUENGINE MULTI-PLATFORM DEVELOPMENT
A suite of cross-platform libraries and tools. Prototypes A & B used in development of Chrono Resurrection. Prototype C currently in development.

Some new engine features include:

- Dynamic Hierarichal Scene Graph
- Abstract Interfaces for most cross-platform classes. Allows for any platform to be programmed for easily.
- Base Object features, such as: RTTI, Serialization, Copying/Cloning, and more!
- Custom memory manager with concepts of multiple arenas and heaps.
- Frustum/Occlusion Culling
- Controller-based Animation System shared between Scene Graph nodes and Camera
- Hand-written optimized math libraries for all platforms
- Powerful renderer which has: Renderstate caching, material display lists, Render Targets, Vertex/Pixel shader support, dynamic geometry optimizations.

There are also tools which will be featured:

- XuStudio (World Editor, Character Editor, Particle Editor, Cinema Editor)
- XuExporter
- XuViewer
- XuConverter

There might be a possibility of the engine being released to the open-source community once it is in a mature state."

http://www.opcoder.com/projects/

this is the game engine he developed to use on the Chrono project that was cancel. This is a very nice engine, email him and tell him you would like him to open source it:

nathan AT opcoder DOT com



EDIT: too early to talk about audio? well i'll post the info anyway. Audacity® is free, open source software for recording and editing sounds. It is available for Mac OS X, Microsoft Windows, GNU/Linux, and other operating systems:

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

[Saibo]

I also think a 2D action RPG would be easier to work on from a purely programming standpoint(im reading a book on it now). As far as content, you dont have to really draw them by hand, you can model them in 3D and render them to look "2D" cell shaded(basically making it look like a hand drawing). Plus a 2D action RPG should be more feasible with a keyboard/mouse. You can use A,W,S,D to move the character around the flat 2D overhead world/view. Items, weapons, etc can be assign to 1,2,3,4,5,6 as one way of doing it, or you can use a hotkey to bring up a pie menu so it doesnt clutter up the screen. It would be possible to get some interesting combo attack for a sword with a 3 button mouse, depending on what you click or what combo(2 or more buttons at the same time). combine that with the directional input from the movement buttons(A,W,S,D), you can have a good number of unique moves. You can also mix 2D over head view with 2D side scrolling to keep gameplay interesting on different areas of the world/map. My PC graphics isnt great, but it can probably handle a awesome 2D action RPG at 1280 by 1024 @ 60 FPS with no problem.

A possible example of gameplay(lets assume the character, he has a long two handed sword equied(spelling?)). let "A" key be left movement, D = right, W = top , S = bottom, if you tap "A" , "A" + LMB (left mouse button) you get a forward trust slab with his sword, which is different from just hitting "A"(normal slash). If you tap "D","A" + RMB you execute a different sword move, say a back slash. If you just tap MMB(middle mouse button) you can use the butt of your sword to strike watever is in front of you( you can knock a enemy in the forehead unconcious without killing him). You get the idea, if you mix the input from A,W,S,D keys with the three button mouse you can get a variety of moves execute(i mean you dont want to just do the same slash over and over thru out a action RPG..it just dont be fun or innovative).

Now lets say the main character is using a Bow and Arrow, you can have LMB = shoot a normal arrow, MMB = shoot a fire arrow, RMB = shoot a ice arrow(err fire and ice..opposite..you get it? :P ). I got better ideas for arrows though...

"E" key can be used to do different things, its the action button. talk to people, pick up something, turn on/off a switch.

"Q" can be used to bring up the Item menu( or a pie menu) so you can check your inventory, stats,select which spells/small summons to execute,etc.

After that you guys can jump into a 3D version of the game. Kinda like how Zelda on the SNES was than it become 3D on the N64 :D . baby steps. but at least you'll be able to focus on story, and gameplay. And creating a 2D engine is alot easier then a 3D one.

Also a online 3 person coop mode would be sweet, you gotta work together to complete the task.

[Negativity]

Well, the most important thing before starting any of this is spending some time on making prototypes of everything you wanna' do.

It doesn't matter how you make them, just make them.

[venomv]

I was looking though some of those links you where throwing around last night, Saibo. And I came across this (http://www.3dcakewalk.com/), do you know anything about it? The way they make it sound is good, but that could be just good salesmanship........

I am also going through some of the tutorials for Blender, couldn't make heads or tails of it as first as I have only seen Autodesks interfaces with similar programs.......But I can get used to it I'm sure.

[D3adcell]

I just found one aswell, am going to download the freeware version and check it out. It's not what you would want to use for 3d games though.

2D games though look very doable.

edit nevermind.

It was called gamemaker and I don't think its going to be the best for what we want to do.

[Saibo]

most of the cheap 3D middleware arent really good. Even the ones i like have a long way to go. I'll be in chatroom if you guys want to talk about this further.Im in there now. I got a ebook for you deadcell that covers game programming in C++, 2D engine. I was reading it last night, it was so clearly exlpain that i was hook on it until 4 AM.

Creating a 2D engine is so much easier, and what you learn as a programmer can be applied to a 3D engine. Its about taking the proper steps to reach that end goal( 3D action RPG ).

[makeitlookreal]

Once again I just want to stress that we could really use someone who really knows a lot when it comes to gave development and programming to guide us in the right direction. If anyone reading this would be willing to help us and join our group please feel free to post.

[SuperLuigiBros]

I was doing some looking around and I came across this (http://www.gamedev.net/). It could help alot. It has a dictionary thing that explains what various game development terms are, and forums, so we can ask some of those guys to help.

[Zeep]

I personally would be of no help except for possibly contributing broad ideas/concepts and possibly writing, but i think it's a great idea. I also think it would definitely be best to stick to PC, but since this is more of a console-gaming-oriented board, DS or GBA. flashcarts are pretty inexpensive. I already have enough equipment to run/test homebrew DS/GBA software.

[D3adcell]

^How would we distribute that medium though?

[Zeep]

...touché.

[venomv]

I personally would be of no help except for possibly contributing broad ideas/concepts and possibly writing, but i think it's a great idea. I also think it would definitely be best to stick to PC, but since this is more of a console-gaming-oriented board, DS or GBA. flashcarts are pretty inexpensive. I already have enough equipment to run/test homebrew DS/GBA software.

The more the merrier in any case.

[Saibo]

^How would we distribute that medium though?

good point, i dont expect people to buy a flashcart to just play. that would be too much to ask. If we do a 2D game, a PC would be better..more powerful than the DS/GBA, you can distribute the game online.

[Viper]

PC and 2D.

I think we can agree this is final. Crawl, walk, run, you get the idea.

[D3adcell]

I got a ebook for you deadcell that covers game programming in C++, 2D engine. I was reading it last night, it was so clearly exlpain that i was hook on it until 4 AM.

Apparently though from the reviews on amazon.com you need to software and source code to learn it. From what everyone is saying, the source code that comes with the book doesnt work either.

[Saibo]

PC and 2D.

I think we can agree this is final. Crawl, walk, run, you get the idea.

2D, 2.5 D, 3D (crawl, walk, run ) 2.5D = 2D gameplay + 3D graphics.


Apparently though from the reviews on amazon.com you need to software and source code to learn it. From what everyone is saying, the source code that comes with the book doesnt work either.

its probably true, but he does cover many game related topic, and he does a good job of explaining in a very "laymen" way. You dont have to buy the book, but just adsorb the info. Before i didnt understand how to use float points or vectors in game, but now i have a better understanding. He also does a great job of explaining OOP(object oriented programming).

I got DEV C++ installed its a C++ IDE, and its free. you can get it here: www.bloodshed.net

Im using the Allegro library, more info about it here: http://www.talula.demon.co.uk/allegro/

You need to install the Allegro library into DEV C++:

http://devpaks.org/details.php?devpak=1

Im following this tutorial here: http://www.cppgameprogramming.com/cgi/nav.cgi?page=allegbasics

EDIT: a different library(GLFW):

http://glfw.sourceforge.net/

Also a good site on 3D graphics programming:

http://www.ultimategameprogramming.com/

[Saibo]

I cant compile the damn GLFW library!!argh... (im not a programmer, and i have never took a programming class)

I follow the compile instuction and this is the error i get(BTW im running Dev-C++ with mingw32 as the compiler):

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/3987/consoleerror7tg.jpg

Here are the instructions:

2.1 Note for Microsoft Visual C++ users

When MSVC is installed, you are asked if it should be possible to access the compiler from the command line. For some strange reason, the default answer to this question is NO. If you answered no to this question you will have to run a file named VCVARS32.BAT, which is located in the bin directory of your Visual C++ folder, before you can use the compiler from the command line.

Note that VCVARS32.BAT must be run from the same shell as you intend to use for compiling GLFW (simply clicking on the file from the explorer will not work).

After that is done, it is possible to compile GLFW by entering the GLFW root directory and issuing nmake win32-msvc.

For instance, if MSVC is installed in the directory 'C:\Program Files\Microsoft Developer Studio\VC98', then you should be able to compile GLFW with this procedure:

1. Start a command prompt (MS-DOS prompt)
2. "CD" to the directory where you unzipped the GLFW source distribution (where this readme file is located)
3. Type "C:\Program Files\Microsoft Developer Studio\VC98\BIN\VCVARS32" (with quotation marks)
4. Type nmake win32-msvc


2.2 Note for MinGW/DevC++ users

Do not use the MSYS shell for compiling GLFW, because the supplied batch file "compile.bat" will only work under a Windows command prompt (or MS-DOS prompt).

Under Windows 98, the MinGW make program may set the $(MAKE) variable incorrectly. To remedy this, uncomment the line at the beginning of the top level Makefile that says MAKE = make (possibly replacing make with some other name, e.g. mingw32-make).

Any programmers out there can tell me what im doing wrong? Id be nice to get GLFW working(allegro works).

[D3adcell]

Saibo you need to get AIM. But right now i'm going to try and download GLFW and get it installed. I will tell you exactly what I did once I do.

edit: Just open dev c++ go to tools then check for updates/packages.

once there go to devpaks.org search for updates.

Then from there find GLFW, once you do click it and hit download.

[Saibo]

Saibo you need to get AIM. But right now i'm going to try and download GLFW and get it installed. I will tell you exactly what I did once I do.

edit: Just open dev c++ go to tools then check for updates/packages.

once there go to devpaks.org search for updates.

Then from there find GLFW, once you do click it and hit download.

thanks! this just prove im a idiot when it comes to programming. :nervous:

i dont have AIM, i only use MSN messenger. You got MSN messenger?

EDIT: it seem the devpak is missing a file according to the readme file(you can get the .DLL file from the glfw website, its missing the libglfwdll.a file:


"After compiling GLFW with MinGW32 or Cygwin, three files of interest should have appeared in the lib\win32 directory. They are: libglfw.a (the static link version of GLFW), glfw.dll (the DLL version of GLFW) and libglfwdll.a (the DLL import library).

If you used Borland C++ Builder, LCC-Win32, Microsoft Visual C++ or OpenWatcom, the files are named glfw.lib (the static link version of GLFW), glfw.dll (the DLL version of GLFW) and glfwdll.lib (the DLL import library).

The static link library and the DLL import library should be copied to your compiler's LIB directory (where all other link libraries are located). The DLL can be copied either to your Windows system directory (where opengl32.dll is located), or to the project directory of your GLFW-based projects (where you place your compiled EXEs)."

[cpiasminc]

Is there a need for you to specifically type d:\dev-cpp\bin\mingw32-make? i.e. can you not run mingw32-make directly from anywhere?

If that is the case, it's possible that a lot of the directories where mingw32 and gcc and so on lie are not in your PATH. Notably, the error you're getting appears to be one about not being able to find an executable for compilation. That's consistent with the file either ACTUALLY missing or it's somewhere in a folder that isn't part of your PATH.

[venomv]

My MSN is ralpfv@hotmail.com if any of you wanna chat about this. If you want to send an email don't bother sending to that, I am unlikely to ever check it, just pm me here.

[Coded-Dude]

programming on windows! *dies*

what are you guys using for "versioning".....cvs?

[cpiasminc]

I don't know of a CVS server for windows. Clients, sure, but not servers. Most people on windows tend to use SourceSafe because it's easy to setup a VSS server on Windows. But unfortunately, it's mainly tied to Microsoft tools (not that MS has ever used VSS at any time). If you use VSS, though, never EVER use its merge tool... It just plain sucks, and 75% of the time, it doesn't even run. You're better off downloading WinMerge and doing it yourself.

FreeVCS supposedly works and you can setup a Windows source control server, but I've never actually tried it myself, so I don't know for sure. In any case, for a bunch of guys working remotely, a web-based interface like Subversion or Sourceforge may work out for the best. Everybody just needs to be careful working in local context.

[Coded-Dude]

yeah we stick with unix/linux servers, but a lot of our guys use the clearcase windows client.
Most jsut stick with vi/emacs on the UX side of things. Though I do agree that sourceforge would be a great benefit to the teams ability to stay organizes(if htere is currently no other solution)

[cpiasminc]

Over here, we have to use Windows tools (developing for X360 pretty much demands that), and we live in Perforce clients. As usual, Linux servers, but we also get Perforce integration into VS.NET and our own toolsets as well (so artists can check in and check out from the level editor, for instance).

Perforce is nice, and I actually kind of like its merge tool a little better than Clearcase's. But the biggest pain in the neck with Perforce is the fact that everything is in remote context -- you can't do anything locally without checking out.

Bug tracking tools are also rather useful, but on a scale as small as this, messaging may be enough. Besides, all bug tracking tools are massively overpriced. Even the free ones ;).

[Gaul]

What is this chat room you guys are talking about?

[Coded-Dude]

the E-mpire chat room?

[venomv]

What is this chat room you guys are talking about?

http://forums.e-mpire.com/chat/flashchat.php It's at the top of your page, on the bar with the UserCP and search.

[Saibo]

In any case, for a bunch of guys working remotely, a web-based interface like Subversion or Sourceforge may work out for the best. Everybody just needs to be careful working in local context.

OK this is tougher than i thought..How would be appoarch developing a 2D game engine. I mean i dont even know what goes into a 2D game engine. An example of a good 2D engine would be games from SNES era,like Chrono Trigger , Zelda. but with higher res sprites and animation.

Also do you plan on the gameplay first than write the engine? or the other way around?

I would assume we need a level editor of sort? so the level artist can bring in his sprite/bitmaps and construct the game. a WYSIWYG editor(so you can jump right into the game level and move around, or jump back out to edit things).

Anyway how do you suggest we appoarch this problem? the whole pipeline issue that is. Also OGL or DX for 2D sprite..which is better/easier?

and please answer it in a very laymen way..not everyone is a super programmer with high IQ.

*argh...head explodes!!*....*dies*...

[Gaul]

I think we need to decide on the type of game and the story first, before you guys start working on an engine, because IMO some game types are suited to some graphical styles rather than others. Take d2 for example. If that game didn't look the way it did, it just couldn't function properly.

BTW, thats quite a nifty chat room, too bad no ones in it :'(

[cpiasminc]

Also do you plan on the gameplay first than write the engine? or the other way around?
The first option is really not possible. How do you plan on testing the gameplay without having an engine to test it on? The engine is your core technology, and it is a module utilized by the game which actually carries the gameplay code. You can't do it the other way around.

The engine doesn't have to be 100% complete before you're writing some gameplay code... Nor do you need final artwork straight off -- you can create a bunch of dummy sprites. The point is to have at least enough to form a testbed and make sure things are working properly.

It's perfectly normal to come to some point in developing the gameplay and then realize that you need to add more stuff to the engine in order to achieve what you want. And that's fine.

I would assume we need a level editor of sort? so the level artist can bring in his sprite/bitmaps and construct the game. a WYSIWYG editor(so you can jump right into the game level and move around, or jump back out to edit things).
Sooo... that depends a lot on how far you intend to take this. Is this going to be a one-time learning experience on game development or is this going to be an exhaustive fan project with a far flung future? You don't need to make very extensive tools if it's the former.

I think we need to decide on the type of game and the story first, before you guys start working on an engine, because IMO some game types are suited to some graphical styles rather than others.
So even before any of that (or rather, while that planning is taking place), on the programming side, you can implement a lot of the lower level core technologies without actually putting them into a larger "game" architecture.

Specifically, you can get a lot of things in place for how you plan to store sprites and sprite frames and how you intend to reference them, and then get into what sort of ancillary information goes in there besides just images.

These aren't things that affect the "graphical style" aspects you speak of. Those are content matters. There may be some higher level engine aspects like the actual construction of levels and the internal representations of how a character resides in space that are going to be affected by "graphical style" matters because that may include things like "isometric 2.5D" vs. "2D side-scroller" or "mode7 parallax fakes" and so on.

Character sprites and individual object sprites, for instance, will be pretty much the same regardless of any of those things, but for instance, environment tiles will be a different matter.

[Saibo]

cpi> thanks for the advice, yeah i understand. I dont know about deadcell, but i'll be writing a 2D engine this summer for the game. I just place my order for this video tutorial series:

http://www.3dbuzz.com/xcart/customer/product.php?productid=30&cat=&page=

Let me know if you recommend other video tutorials online. The only other place i seen was : http://www.gameinstitute.com/

im just a visual learner.

Rioter14 , omg your only 15? O_o..

edit for spelling error.

[cpiasminc]

In that list of topics on the 3d buzz tutorial CDs, the number one thing to pay attention to is probably going to be the one on pointers. Pointers is something even the typical CS grad these days doesn't understand (the vast majority of them learn everything in Java, which has no concept of explicit memory addressing). The vast majority of your bugs and the vast majority of the things you're going to deal with are all shared in memory space (and it is invariably cheaper to be passing around memory addresses than it is to pass around whole objects -- especially since passing around whole objects typically means that these objects are going to be copied over and over), so if you can learn to keep track of what is where in memory, you'll generally be able to handle anything.

[Dralor]

Ahh pointer isn't that bad I just took that in my second C++ class. not a hard concept to aliasing on a large scale can make for fun issues of spontanoes dangling references but I'm taking assembly next. Good fun.

[cpiasminc]

It's second nature to me these days, and as far as I'm concerned, assembler is the one true programming language. Everything else is simply sugarcoating on assembler that is meant to aid productivity (C++ references were an extreme example of this in my mind, but then came C#). But it's so easy once you've gotten experienced with these sorts of things that it is actually difficult for newcomers (and it was probably difficult for yourself when you were new to it).

I mean, at my job, I work on a codebase that's over 5 GB of just source code, and I regularly have to keep track of a good 4000 pointers and cyclical references at once in my head while testing and debugging... but after doing it for over 20 years, that's a cakewalk. It's not so easy to teach that, though, and I've learned that the hard way; I lose my patience very easily in those kinds of settings.

But it is sad that it's a lost art. Nobody understands these things anymore because it's more important to learn about databases and raw socket interfaces and ASP.NET and god knows what other garbage. I've seen too many schools where grads only learn two "languages" (and one I don't even count as a language) -- Java and SQL. C++ is nowhere, C is nowhere, nobody studies or even wants to study numerical analysis at all, nobody can handle even the simplest tasks in Assembler, nobody can analyze instruction flow in even a canonically basic pipeline layout. It's all gone, and everybody just says the magic words "Moore's Law"... as if all exponential trends are infinitely sustainable.

[Dralor]

Well OSU as taught me their own bastardized version of C++ basicallytakes pointers and a few other things out of it and a Corse in assembly is required. I don't know the rest of the courses of the top of my head but it sounds as though they are at least giving me a good base.

[Viper]

I took BASIC in 1992 on a 286. Damn lack of school funding so they couldn't add more advanced courses so my programming experience died in 9th grade.

[Dralor]

My school had nada in programming. Now college is has tons of stuff.

[Lucent Beam]

I see D3adcell already mentioned Nick. If I could con him into joining and posting, people could ask him questions if you wanted any help. He graduated with B.S.'s in Comp Sci & in Psychology, and is curently a grad student at Stanford for Comp Sci with a focus on A.I. You can check out some of the student games he's designed and developed here (http://stanford.edu/~nacooper/) (including one where you throw squirrels at zombies to kill them). He did Bunny Bomber and OSB in teams during his 2nd year of college, Notebok Ninja (in a team) and Buzz Off (alone) in his third, and Office Wing (alone) both over the summer before and during his first semester of grad school. That's just to give a reference how much experience he had and what type of game is yielded from that level of experience.

He just started working at Treyarch on Monday and had told me this week that the PS3 dev kits are huge and run as loud as a garbage truck. It also causes brown-outs in their office, so you have to turn off all the lights in the room & stuff to keep that from hapening. So maybe you all don't want to be using one of those.

Plus, dev kits (and debug kits, for that matter) are really expensive. When he was working on an Xbox game, he found out that an Xbox dev kit was around $10,000, debug kits were minimum $6000. PS2's were even more expensive from what I've heard, too. I can't imagine how bad the PS3 dev kits are.

[cpiasminc]

PSP devkits, for that matter were pretty awful. Even the *TEST* kit for the PSP was going for $10,000 (compared to the PS2 test kits which were around $2500, IIRC). I especially find it weird considering that there are so many simple oversights on the PSP kits. For instance, the DVD drive on the PSP kit is way faster than the UMD drive on the retail unit... WHY??!? A 1x DVD drive would have worked out perfectly.

And if it's any indication the PS2 devkits are PC-sized, somewhat loud and excellent space heaters, and this is after several revisions including the slimline PS2s have been produced. PS2 devkits were around the same price per kit as the Xbox kits, but the initial developer registration fees were higher, I believe. Though the thing with the Xbox kits is that programmers could work just the same on a devkit (white) or a debug kit (green), so most people would have debug kits because they were cheaper. Test kits for the PS2 weren't particularly useful for programmers because that would mean having to burn a DVD for every little change they want to test. Not very ideal.

I haven't actually seen an invoice for either, but I believe the Xbox360 kits run in the $30k range while the PS3 kits are in the $40-50k range (first party and a lot of launch developers for either platform get them for free, of course). And they're all loud as garbage trucks and whenever I run my 360 kit, my cubicle turns into a sweltering cesspool.

[Saibo]

CPI,

from a game programmer perspective, what do you think about the D programming language? Is there anything in there that would make game programming harder or easier?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_programming_language

[cpiasminc]

For your purposes, I don't think D will have a whole lot of impact. Other than maybe saving you the trouble of having to worry about a clean shutdown and memory leaks, and maybe a cleaner-looking syntax for iterator constructs and include mechanisms, I think a lot of the enhancements it carries lie in the deeper things like template mechanisms, implicit friendship, type traits and so on... many of which are not going to be things you'll bother with very much.

You may find yourself using STL, which has its share of syntactical headaches, but it's not a big deal once you get used to it. The big reason we have things like D and C# is because some of the really cute nifty things that people do with C++ (e.g. template metaprogramming) are all really side effects of the language and its syntax rather than things that are actually features of C++. And so these things often look syntactically hideous. D and C# simply build around a lot of these things such that they ARE explicit features. For something like a 2D game, you won't really be using anything off-the-wall, and you won't really need to.

From a general game development, the biggest thing that C++ has over D is that it's already penetrated everywhere. There are a million and one development tools for it. What does D have to compare? Also, I don't know of very many major API bindings for D, in the first place, which may inherently make it useless for games until someone binds common libraries to it. But then, I don't follow it, so I may be wrong on that.

In any case, most games, we write custom everything, and depending on built-in functionality in the language and the compiler is not something we do. We track memory ourselves and do NOT depend on garbage collection (unless we write our own garbage collectors). Same thing applies to a lot of data management and file system handling and so on. The idea is that we like to make things transparent at the game level, but have full knowledge of what's going on with every last byte in the system. Magical forces that take care of things for you are something I've learned never to trust.

I will say, though, that's it's probably all right for standalone tools development -- 1) because it does have Win32 and various widget library bindings. and 2) because when developing tools, you care less about the underlying low-level forces and more about the stability and maintainability of the product and making sure that it does what it's supposed to do (performance be damned). The only thing to watch is that there is often a lot of intertwining of the data management between tools and the actual game. For instance, if tools written in D are going to create files that you use in the game code written in C, then you'd better setup your make process so that you can share these. This is actually not very difficult in concept (object files contain the actual machine code for each module, and all the object files are pretty much the same -- most any linker will understand them), but make processes are by nature fidgety, and linkers are a pain in the neck because they don't give you very detailed error reports.

Just be sure you are fully aware of what sort of modularization your code will require. Things you share across several tasks should get files to themselves. Things that are strongly codependent should all be together in one place. Sharing things developed in different languages is fine, but you will need interface files in each language (something to define the module functionality in that language, but it doesn't actually contain said code -- just says "we have this somewhere").

[Viper]

PS3 kits are $20 G's.

[cpiasminc]

The only figure I ever heard was in the same range (20-25k), except that it was pounds, not dollars. Sounds odd that it would be the same in dollars. But then, Microsoft always does that, so why not?

[makeitlookreal]

Cpiasminc,

If you were to advise someone on how to learn programming in relation to game development what would you advise?

Obviously, I see that probably in your opinion Assembly is the most important because it is a good foundation. After that what would you recommend? C and then C++?

Is OpenGL a programming langrage as well?

Basically, if I were to go to Barnes and Noble and purchase some books on programming which ones should I go get? (What I mean is not specific titles but which specific programming langrages.)

[Saibo]

Cpiasminc,

If you were to advise someone on how to learn programming in relation to game development what would you advise?

Obviously, I see that probably in your opinion Assembly is the most important because it is a good foundation. After that what would you recommend? C and then C++?

Is OpenGL a programming langrage as well?

Basically, if I were to go to Barnes and Noble and purchase some books on programming which ones should I go get? (What I mean is not specific titles but which specific programming langrages.)

i think assembly would be too hardcore for a beginner like me.

C++

OpenGL is a graphics API, not a programming language. there are many other API out there.

If your a visual learner, then books dont really help. Module 1 of the C++ course at 3dbuzz site is free, you can sign up and download it. Its a video tutorial.

[Omega]

The Game Brewery forum was created for just such topics. Feel free to use it for collab, etc.

http://forums.e-mpire.com/forumdisplay.php?f=234

[cpiasminc]

If you were to advise someone on how to learn programming in relation to game development what would you advise?
Even aside from programming books, I'd look up some basic mathematics topics. Basics on vector calculus, analytic geometry, linear algebra will be pretty important even for simple things like making Mario jump on a Goomba.

Obviously, I see that probably in your opinion Assembly is the most important because it is a good foundation. After that what would you recommend? C and then C++?
Well, I certainly think that of Assembler for someone trying to become a serious programmer. For a lot of people, I don't know that I'd consider *starting* with ASM, especially not nowadays. Back when I started programming, you didn't exactly have much choice, but keeping track of the state of an entire machine was very feasible to do -- nowadays a machine is a million times more complicated. ASM as a language to learn at some point is still important, IMO, not so much because you might actually need it, but because it gives you a perspective on the underlying workings of the machine.

C vs. C++... I'd go with C++. Once you've learned C++, you can easily learn C since it's backwards compatible (well, 98%). Going from C to C++ is harder because C teaches you to think in certain ways, which are actually very different from the OOP of C++, which has its differences from the OOP of Java (which is a little more 'pure' OOP). The transition from OOP to pure procedural is much easier than the transition from procedural to OOP.

Is OpenGL a programming langrage as well?
As Saibo mentioned, it's an API. It's a library of functions exposed to a programming language that gives you a ties into some particular functionalities (in the case of OpenGL, it's the GPU). OpenGL's bindings, btw, are bound in a C-style fashion, but of course it will work with C++ and C# as long as someone creates appropriate headers and static/dynamic link library files (which for the vast majority of C/C++ libs are widely downloadable).

[Saibo]

OK, im stuck..i guess this question is for CPI(or any other experience programmer here). im on VTM # 2, i understand pointers, but now im stuck on inheritance.

I created a Point class, and i created a vector class that derive from the point class. A equal operator has been declared in the public part of the Point class. So naturally the vector class should be able to add 2 vectors and spit out a value.

trying to add:

Vector vect1(1,2,3);
Vector vect2(5,4,2);

Vector vect3;

vect3 = vect1 + vect2;

cout << vect3 << endl;


The error im getting is:


no match for 'operator=' in 'vect3= Vector::operator+(Vector&)(((Vector&)(&vect2)))'


note: candidates are: Vector& Vector::operator=(Vector&)


anyway here is the whole code, the guys doing the video seem to compile just fine without declaring a new equal operator for the Vector class!?



#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

class Point
{

public:
Point(float f_x = 1.0, float f_y = 1.0, float f_z = 1.0);
~Point();

void setXYZ(float X, float Y, float Z);
void setX(float X);
void setY(float Y);
void setZ(float Z);

void getXYZ(float &X, float &Y, float &Z);
float getX();
float getY();
float getZ();

Point operator = (Point &p);

private:
float x, y, z;

protected:
};



Point::Point(float f_x, float f_y, float f_z)
{
cout << "We're in the constructor with arugments" << (int)this << endl;

x = f_x;
y = f_y;
z = f_z;
}

Point::~Point()
{

cout << "Your in the destructor" << (int)this << endl;

}
void Point::getXYZ(float &X, float &Y, float &Z)
{
X = getX();
Y = getY();
Z = getZ();

}

float Point::getX()
{
return x;

}

float Point::getY()
{
return y;

}

float Point::getZ()
{
return z;

}

void Point::setXYZ(float X, float Y, float Z)
{
/* x = X;
y = Y;
z = Z;*/

setX(X);
setY(Y);
setZ(Z);




}

void Point::setX(float X)
{
x = X;
}

void Point::setY(float Y)
{
y = Y;
}

void Point::setZ(float Z)
{
z = Z;
}

Point Point::operator = (Point &p)
{
setX(p.getX());
setY(p.getY());
setZ(p.getZ());

return *this;




}

ostream &operator <<(ostream &stream, Point &p)
{
stream << p.getX() << " " << p.getY() << " " << p.getZ();
return stream;


}

istream &operator >>(istream &stream, Point &p)
{

float x, y, z;
stream >> x >> y >> z;
p.setXYZ(x, y, z);
return stream;


}

//-------------------------------
//Point class end
//-------------------------------

class Vector : public Point
{
public :
Vector(float X = 0, float Y = 0, float Z = 0);
Vector operator +(Vector &p);
Vector operator -(Vector &p);
};

Vector::Vector(float X, float Y, float Z) : Point(X, Y, Z)
{


}

Vector Vector::operator +(Vector &p)
{
Vector outV;
outV.setX(getX() + p.getX());
outV.setY(getY() + p.getY());
outV.setZ(getZ() + p.getZ());
return outV;
}

Vector Vector::operator -(Vector &p)
{
Vector outV;
outV.setX(getX() - p.getX());
outV.setY(getY() - p.getY());
outV.setZ(getZ() - p.getZ());
return outV;
}


int main()
{
Vector vect1(1, 2, 3);
Vector vect2(5, 4, 2);

Vector vect3;

vect3 = vect1 + vect2;

cout << vect3 << endl;

return 0;
}




So base on that code, what do i need to type in to make it add those 2 damn vectors! argh...

PS its a console app, im using CodeBlocks IDE with GCC compiler on WindowsXP.

[venomv]

Well I made it add the vectors (I think, nothing ever runs for me, even if it compiles, the black window pops up for a fraction of a second.). But it compiles if I take out those two lines (Vector vect3; and vect3 = vect1 + vect2; ) and put in:

Vector vect3(vect1 + vect2);

Edit: Why wasn't this moved to the Game Brewery in the first place? Hmm, oh well.

[cpiasminc]

Your problem looks simple enough.

First of all, the reason your black window pops up for a fraction of a second is because main is finished running that quickly. If you add something like
std::string dummy;
std::cin >> dummy;
before the return, that will wait for the user to hit enter before it leaves.

As for why the equals operator wouldn't work, that's also a simple problem.
You have an assignment operator for a reference. But you don't have an addition operator that returns a reference.

Notice (it takes in a reference) --
Point Point::operator = (Point &p)

but the vector addition operator returns a vector value --
Vector Vector::operator +(Vector &p)

The simple fix is just that you also may need an assignment operator that takes in a value.
i.e. -- Point Point::operator = (Point p)

[Shade Valkyrie]

I have been working with programming for years now (not professionaly though, just on a hobby basis) and know both Visual Basic and C++ programming, but I must say I preffer to program with Blitz. And I recommend that programming language on the strongest, because : It's a BASIC\C hybrid, so people having experience from either language would quickly feel at home. A Blitz developer can either use Hardware (graphics drawn with the CPU), OpenGL or DirectX for graphic programming, I dunno about DirectX, but atleast the other two choices has a simpler language in Blitz than C++ (which means equal results with less code, and less code = shorter development time). Blitz games and programs, atleast those made with the latest version of the language, BlitzMax, can be developed AND played at a Mac, Linux or Windows computer without the need for the developer(s) to hassle with extra code Unlike C++, Blitz is basically a complete development tool, you do not need to download one language for the graphics, one for the sound and another for the online multiplayer stuff - it's all in one package! It's a language easy to learn even for those that have never programmed before.If anyone is interested click here (http://www.blitzbasic.com) for the offical Blitz Basic website.

I am currently working on a game idea that perhaps you guys might find interesting, it is an Action RPG game of sorts, so it fits into the direction you guys seem to be going.

The game is completelly non-linear and will therefor have no need for a very complex story like many other RPG's are demanding, however, it will still require a lot of text and dialogs, close to the level of Animal Crossing if we want, so those who want to do writting are going to get their hands full regardless of the simple story, besides, I have already started working on many things in that game like spell editors, engines, code libraries, graphic solutions etc.

Anyway, the reason for the lack of story is because the point is (atleast the way I have taken it so far) that the players have to create that story themselves, if the player want to create a heaven or hell in their world it's up to them and they can set themselves different goals - everything from conquest, fame, fortune, control etc., the game will therefor create cities, dungeons etc. randomly, which means infinite varity without much work with level design (the engine will require scripts to declare how the dungeon should look though, like if it should be more cave-, maze-, tower- etc. -looking), this is not so hard as it sounds, as long as it's 2D atleast, I have already started working on the dungeon engine and I'm surprised how little work it requires (atleast with Blitz) to make the computer create a dungeon with several floors, halways, rooms, stairs and elevator rooms (I'm planning several other features as well of course, like collapsed paths etc.).

So if this game appeals to you guys then I would love to work with you! - If not then I unfortanly have to pass this opportunity, I just don't want to stop working on this game in favor of some other game, sorry.

[venomv]

Your problem looks simple enough.

First of all, the reason your black window pops up for a fraction of a second is because main is finished running that quickly. If you add something like
std::string dummy;
std::cin >> dummy;
before the return, that will wait for the user to hit enter before it leaves.

Ok, that makes sense, I have very little experience programming (Took a bad Java class during high school, and started some C++ tutorials online), I was expecting it to stay there for me to see the result if any.

[cpiasminc]

I have been working with programming for years now (not professionaly though, just on a hobby basis) and know both Visual Basic and C++ programming, but I must say I preffer to program with Blitz. And I recommend that programming language on the strongest, because :

1. It's a BASIC\C hybrid, so people having experience from either language would quickly feel at home.
2. A Blitz developer can either use Hardware (graphics drawn with the CPU), OpenGL or DirectX for graphic programming, I dunno about DirectX, but atleast the other two choices has a simpler language in Blitz than C++ (which means equal results with less code, and less code = shorter development time).
3. Blitz games and programs, atleast those made with the latest version of the language, BlitzMax, can be developed AND played at a Mac, Linux or Windows computer without the need for the developer(s) to hassle with extra code
4. Unlike C++, Blitz is basically a complete development tool, you do not need to download one language for the graphics, one for the sound and another for the online multiplayer stuff - it's all in one package!
5. It's a language easy to learn even for those that have never programmed before.
1 and 5 are certainly valid points to bring up for beginners. For someone like me, who was programming on punch cards before venom was even born and around the time that you were learning to walk (good god, that makes me sound old), it's true that I've kind of gotten set in my ways, and my way of thinking has been hardened. It's difficult for me to think along the lines of making things easier on yourself, because I think down to the metal, and that means I have a lot of distrust for tools.

For #2 and #3 -- DirectX is typically the most powerful of the bunch when it comes down to playing with the hardware, and it's a tad more hardware-agnostic than OpenGL. If I were concerning myself with the datastream formats and when and how I move data to the GPU, I'd recommend DirectX, in spite of the fact that it will invariably require 10x the code to set something up as opposed to OpenGL. Constructs in DX for shaders and indexed triangle lists are far cleaner.

However, DirectX is anything but platform-agnostic, so the point about running on any platform won't apply at all if you use DX. DirectX is completely exclusive to Windows, and pretty much always will be.

For #4 -- I'm not quite sure what you mean by "downloading languages", but third-party SDKs exist for everything. It just so happens that with Blitz, a lot more of them are included when you download the tools to begin with, since it's pretty much a game-oriented package, unlike C++, which is meant to be generic.

[Saibo]

Your problem looks simple enough.

First of all, the reason your black window pops up for a fraction of a second is because main is finished running that quickly. If you add something like
std::string dummy;
std::cin >> dummy;
before the return, that will wait for the user to hit enter before it leaves.

As for why the equals operator wouldn't work, that's also a simple problem.
You have an assignment operator for a reference. But you don't have an addition operator that returns a reference.

Notice (it takes in a reference) --
Point Point::operator = (Point &p)

but the vector addition operator returns a vector value --
Vector Vector::operator +(Vector &p)

The simple fix is just that you also may need an assignment operator that takes in a value.
i.e. -- Point Point::operator = (Point p)


Your right in my class Point i had to add:

Point operator = (Point p);

and in i needed to add this line:

Point Point::operator = (Point p)
{
setX(p.getX());
setY(p.getY());
setZ(p.getZ());

return *this;
}

Its still strange they can compile the same code without getting any erorrs...maybe their MS Visual Studio 2003 IDE comes with a better compiler? Also they can get away with:

void main() If i tried to do the same thing my compiler throws an error meseege..

@Venom, are you going thru the VTM also?

@Shade Valkyrie , thanks i'll take a look at it later. I still want to focus on C++ right now, because i also want to develop some plugins for my DCC application(i think Blitz is design purely for games?). Nice to see another ayumi fan :D

Im still interested in the D programming language..but i want to wait until it mature to a 1.0 status before putting time into learning it. And until it gets a IDE support.

[Shade Valkyrie]

@Shade Valkyrie , thanks i'll take a look at it later. I still want to focus on C++ right now, because i also want to develop some plugins for my DCC application(i think Blitz is design purely for games?). Nice to see another ayumi fan :DNot really, originally it was only for games, but after the release of BlitzPlus it also started including programming of applications, it's all in code, so those who, like me, have Visual Basic would have a much easier time doing application programming there (you can see how it looks while programming it), but I think C++ do the designing all in code as well though, or? (Have not tried making applications in C++, I preffer VB).

Oh, I forgot to mention this point:
6. Blitz have external language support for interfacing with C/C++/ObjectiveC and assembly code.

I think that means BlitzMax can have some code (in seperate files I guess) in one of those languages for those who want that.

For #4 -- I'm not quite sure what you mean by "downloading languages", but third-party SDKs exist for everything. It just so happens that with Blitz, a lot more of them are included when you download the tools to begin with, since it's pretty much a game-oriented package, unlike C++, which is meant to be generic.Yes, I got Visual C++ and it do not include any of those that I mentioned.

Oh, and yeah, you are right about DirectX as well, so those who want to make a game for Mac and Linux as well should use OpenGL or Hardware code for graphics.

Btw, isn't Assembly the same as Assembler or are they different?

[cpiasminc]

Its still strange they can compile the same code without getting any erorrs...maybe their MS Visual Studio 2003 IDE comes with a better compiler? Also they can get away with:

void main() If i tried to do the same thing my compiler throws an error meseege..
Well, you mentioned using GCC, and GCC is much more strict about being compliant with the ANSI standards than Visual Studio is. Older standards allowed the possibility of main never returning anything, but I believe the modern ANSI standards require main() to return an error code integer. Hence, "int main()".

Collaboration across multiple compilers makes for some fun because you can get away with a lot of things which are actually mistakes, but Visual Studio will let you do it. Token pasting errors, especially are the biggest pain in the neck, though the more recent GCC versions will probably produce an error.

but I think C++ do the designing all in code as well though, or?
You have both the graphical (VB) style and the pure code style, and for the most part, you need both. The graphical style is for anything static in format (dialogs), while the code form is for anything dynamic (populated lists, pulldowns, warning boxes).

In general, though, you still need to rely on MFC, which is quite simply, the work of the devil (and it's worthless life is being ever extended by the delays on Vista). It is a crime imposed upon app programmers so as to induce high suicidal attrition rates and keep the demand for new programmers on job market high.

Btw, isn't Assembly the same as Assembler or are they different?
They're the same. "Assembler" is just an old way of saying it, even though, it's technically true that the compiler can actually be called the "assembler" while the code can be called the "assembly" of codeblocks. It's an old habit of mine simply because "assembly" has so many other meanings. I've only been to the "Assembly" in Finland the one time. That was back in '97.

[masteratt]

Here is the 'script'.
As you can read, I wrote it so it's very easily editable. It should be clear from this what kind of atmosphere I aimed for but don't be bothered about saying it sucks or whatever:

http://www.fileupyours.com/files/44572/game%20script.doc

[Dralor]

All I can say is stay away from an abstraction layer called Resolve. It has a lot of annoying idoisyncracies that make the code more readable but takes much longer to write and god damn their names are inanely long.

[Saibo]

Here is the 'script'.
As you can read, I wrote it so it's very easily editable. It should be clear from this what kind of atmosphere I aimed for but don't be bothered about saying it sucks or whatever:

http://www.fileupyours.com/files/44572/game%20script.doc

tractors? eh.? i dont think they made one of those back in the days :P

I thought we were aiming for a fantasy RPG? :huh:

also he doesnt have to be a farmer(its really up to you)

Dont write a game script at this point, what we really need is a story(that has a plot, a hero , many bad guys, weapons, NPCs). then later on we can flesh out the game script.

[Saibo]

edit, problem fixed!

[masteratt]

tractors? eh.? i dont think they made one of those back in the days :P

I thought we were aiming for a fantasy RPG? :huh:

also he doesnt have to be a farmer.

Dont write a game script at this point, what we really need is a story(that has a plot, a hero , many bad guys, weapons, NPCs). then later on we can flesh out the game script.

hmm, okay.
good news actually, I was really bored now.
*starts writing*

[makeitlookreal]

Anyone working on anything interesting? Any updates from anyone?

[Asian_teen]

Well im intrested even though i have no skills with game making. but i have an idea that you guys might like. For me I like ww2 FPS but everywhere i look in single-player you only play as the allies Which for me is getting really boring. So i thought why not make a game where you play as a german soldier who was enlisted in the war. You play from the beginning of the war (invasion of Poland) to the Normandy Beaches or even longer. Where your actions and your squad can change the history of ww2. of course i wanted to add a open-ending where if you fail a mission you cant replay it again and again until you get it right. if you lose a mission it affects the enemy troops strenght, morale,ammo, and which missions you get to play. Of course this is an idea only and since im only 14 i cant go proposing my ideas to a game developer in G3 or somewhere. so I thought i might share this idea with you guys. Thank you for your time and please consider this in the future if you do become a developing team