Immersion Polls Gamers On PS3 Rumble

[Pumpkin Head]

In the latest round of its continuing legal and PR battle against Sony to get its proprietary rumble effects into the PlayStation 3 console, Immersion Corporation has commissioned a provocative public poll into PlayStation 3 rumble http://www.news4gamers.com/ClickOut.aspx?ObjID=3859

[Nameless]

Immersion has an invested interest in the rumble feature, there surveys mean absolutely nothing :whogives:

It's a no brainer the gaming community would like to have rumble and motion detection, I don't need a servey to convience me of this...

[Fats]

God, I wish that Sony would just get their act together and add tilt and rumble.

[Jasonps3]

Hmm, first Sony got a loan this week, then this pops up all of the sudden.....NAH!

[Applefiend]

I still want Sony to put a deal with Nintendo for rumble, and give Immersion the finger. :D

Immersion are microsoft(Part owned by), Nintendo are well... Nintendo, damned either way.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

ha, I think Immersion has a lot to lose if ps3 hits the market without a rumble. the money they could be collecting on licensing and royalties would be insane. They've resorted to online polls. It'd be nice if there was rumble, but I personally don't care.

[Viper]

ha, I think Immersion has a lot to lose if ps3 hits the market without a rumble. the money they could be collecting on licensing and royalties would be insane. They've resorted to online polls. It'd be nice if there was rumble, but I personally don't care.
Well they never got anything from Sony for PS2 to begin with so they aren't losing money at all. Immersion Corp is doing all it can to put rumble in the PS3, it's Sony that doesn't want to pay for it that's keeping it out of the PS3.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Yeah I'm clear on that. They didn't get anything from ps2....which is why they sued them. But lack of rumble in ps3 means they'd lose potential income, thanks to the court decision (hey, a patent is a patent, [even if they were patent trolling]) that's all.

[CygnusXI]

Ever since I switched to (logitech) wireless controllers (few years now), I haven't used rumble to save on the batteries. I don't miss it.

Give me excellent ergonomics and functionallity and Im set.

[Applefiend]

You do miss rumble once your told it's being taken away.. You miss feeling the heartbeat in Rez, you miss feeling your weapon power up in Transformers, you miss feeling the track under your car. You miss the controller rumbling when you're about to take a bad shot in Rock* Table Tennis.

But yeah, it's not the end of the world... I'll just buy those games for 360. <*Runs*>

[Infernal]

Ever since I switched to (logitech) wireless controllers (few years now), I haven't used rumble to save on the batteries. I don't miss it.

Give me excellent ergonomics and functionallity and Im set.
I feel the exact same way. If they added rumble I would probably turn it off to save batteries on the wireless controllers. Also those logitech wireless controllers are the best!

[yoshaw]

I took that survey linked from Gamesindustry.biz website. It was definitely pro rumble and wanted its voters to submit theories as to why Rumble makes a game much more. It's one side of the picture ofcourse and I definitely agree with Nameless. Immersion could benefit so much from Sony licensing their tech. Anyone would salivate considering the 2 billion install base that Sony has now and would continue to grow above that.

I also agree with this 1up editor who once said in Radiopm that Immersion is coming off as an arrogant company.

[Maya 5.0]

Sony is definetly not going to get any sort of rumble in the PS3 controller after being sued by them.If Immersion could of stuck a deal for the PS3 instead of trying to get cash back from the PS2 then they would of been in a much better place for future Playstations.They basically screwed themselves in the long run.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Well on one hand I wish sony would bite the bullet and do whatever to get rumble in. Not because it's OMGZORS ESSENTIALLL but because it is fun to have I guess. On the other hand, I have no love for patent trolls like immersion who design all kinds of technology, sit on it, and wait for someone else to make a product out of it so they can get rich suing their pants off. That's just dirty business to me. I wish patent trolling were against the law, and there was a way for a defendant to counter sue, were they able to prove patent trolling.

[Viper]

Maya, Sony could have settled out of court just like MS did.

Lalilu, Immersion did use the tech in other products.

[Goki]

I still want Sony to put a deal with Nintendo for rumble, and give Immersion the finger. :D

Immersion are microsoft(Part owned by), Nintendo are well... Nintendo, damned either way.


No anymore.



"GS: I'm trying to figure out how to properly say this. Well, Microsoft is--are they technically a part owner? Are they heavily invested in Immersion?

VV: We've had a license agreement--so, the answer is no. They're not a part owner, or they do not hold shares in Immersion at this time. When we signed our license agreement with Microsoft in July of '03, we entered into a license agreement where we licensed our patent portfolio to them. At that time, they also acquired about 10 percent shareholdings in the company, and since then, they've sold those shares and have, you know, generated some substantial profits that offset the cost of the license. "


http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6153305.html

[Applefiend]

I did not know that... +rep

[LaLiLuLeLo]

well, why doesn't sony just do that? that'd make sense, that was really smart of Microsoft.

[Viper]

Sony thought they'd beat the lawsuit is why they didn't.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

well, they haven't, multiple times they haven't. so....

[Viper]

Too late now though. Sony doens't want to pay the $90+ million awarded to Immersion Corp and on top of that pay royalties to use their tech that they weren't paying for for the past two generations.

[OmniCloud]

VIp-u think they can come up with their own tech and have a "switch" feature like Hideo suggested?

[Viper]

VIp-u think they can come up with their own tech and have a "switch" feature like Hideo suggested?
I don't see any reason that they cannot develop their own technology, a la Nintendo, that doesn't infringe on the patents. The only drawback I can forsee with that is it may not be backwards compatable with PS/2 rumble. To me, this should have been a no brainer to Sony to start working on their own tech.

[OmniCloud]

well I hope it works out-seriously some type of feedback is need from the stuff that goes on onscreen. Even the people at E3 said all the action in Resistance was waterd-down becaue the rumble was gone. THey need to fix this one.

[Beenie Man]

Yes I also think they should find someway for rumble to be implemented back into the DS3 controller. I don't even think that it will be called Dual Shock 3 as their is no rumble(for now).

[F089/H]

F%^*....

wait I already read in GI that there would be no Rumble...

[woundingchaney]

At this point I think it is safe to say that there is not going to be rumble.

However, whatever happens please give me the option to turn off the "tilt" feature and dont make it a gameplay necessity.

[venomv]

I doubt it will be the only way you can play any game.

[yoshaw]

However, whatever happens please give me the option to turn off the "tilt" feature and dont make it a gameplay necessity.

Don't worry. It is not an always on feature in any game. lol

In one of the E3 interivews Warhawk guys gave, a dev pointed in this direction that there would be ingame option to turn this on or off.

[Beenie Man]

This is quiet sad.:hurt:

[Effulgence]

A lot of the questions are horribly biased and i doubt Sony is going to take it seriously. Example:

If you had an xbox360 and a ps3 and a game came out for both would you buy:
xbox360 version with rumble
ps3 version without rumble
--
Who in their right mind would pick the PS3 version based on the information provided? No one.

[woundingchaney]

Don't worry. It is not an always on feature in any game. lol

In one of the E3 interivews Warhawk guys gave, a dev pointed in this direction that there would be ingame option to turn this on or off.
Praise Baby Jesus.

Thanks for the info Yosh.:birthday:

[Smokey]

if the batteries last longer good riddance :)

[Freak]

Immersion can bite my ass! I hope there company falls hard because thats what they deserve!!!

[woundingchaney]

Immersion can bite my ass! I hope there company falls hard because thats what they deserve!!!
Why????

[Fats]

Ditto, what could you have against Immersion?

[EvilTaru]

well, why doesn't sony just do that? that'd make sense, that was really smart of Microsoft.

It doesn't matter to MS, they're made of money, frankly they don't need to make money with the xbox360, even if they end up with a moderate loss next-gen, it would still be ok for them, they're not in it for the money through their console division per se, but to basically impose things like DirectX 10, XNA and Vista (maybe PC developers aren't even aware of it, but MS is slowly unifying the PC/xbox360 market), ultimately those things are going to be the money-makers for them. In Sony's case, the Playstation division is a money maker and an important revenue source for them, having to pay royalties to Immersion is like having a leech.

[Nameless]

Honestly Sony has created this headache, because they refused to settle out of court. Sony will eventually lose this IP case and have to pay up it's just a matter of time.

The unfortunate result is all the early adopters of the PS3 will end up buying new controllers once the rumble feature is released in future controllers.
All the loyal / hardcore customers get taken for granted and raped... :censored:

[Applefiend]

My feeling is rumble is something so simple and so basic (an unbalanced weight on an electric motor), nobody should be patenting this crap then demanding millions. But morals and the legal system are two very different things... Morally Sony are on solid ground, just not legally. :)

And controllers cost about 30 bucks each, I don't think spending 30 bucks is equivalent to rape really... I'm Scottish and even I don't think so. :)

[EvilTaru]

Ditto, what could you have against Immersion?

I think while they might have the patent, the way they're trying to shove the idea of rumble down people's throats is starting to become too much, now they're just trying to show Sony up and using the PS3 userbase as freaking tools. Yes, PS3 having rumble is a good idea, I get that, I would like the PS3 to have rumble, but it has never, ever been a deal-maker/deal-breaker for me, I'm a day-one launch adopter regardless, if there's an official rumble controller accessory and Immersion is somehow involved, I would not hesitate to buy one, that was before Immersion folks turn into a bunch of assholes.

I don't need them to be in my face every single day, I don't need this stupid poll, now I don't want the feature at all, because if the only way is through them, I don't really want them to benefit from it. I say screw them, they're an annoying company, like an asshole salesman pushing warranties on people who believe in warranties to begin with but get so turned off because the salesman is acting like an asshole.

[cliffbo]

yes but if they developed the ds2 pads with no knowledge of immersions patents then they would feel that it was a fraudulent claim and would not want to pay up.

incidentally i believe the amount of the claim was $266 million and a judge ordered a payment of $90 million and that sony could not sell any playstation related hardware in the usa until they settled up so that is why sony has been appealing the decision.

anyway this survey only shows how desperate immersion are to get sony to have rumble as they will lose huge amounts of royalties.

[woundingchaney]

There is no doubt that immersion have burnt their bridges with Sony and Im sure they want their tech in the PS3 (hell why wouldnt they). But at the same time their lawsuit was warranted. Man, that would be a tough call to make (LOL). It does seem rather squeemish for them to win a major lawsuit against Sony and then market their tech. to them in order gain further revenue.


LOL the Corporate World.:whip:

[Beenie Man]

It is the money. Everything is money.;)

[Domination]

http://www.news4gamers.com/ClickOut.aspx?ObjID=3859

I personally think rumble is important, and it is something I would really like to see implemented back into the controller. But I think actions like this from immersion only shows desperation. But for them to lose so much out of the deal, I can understand the reason.

[cliffbo]

still even if it`s desperation perhaps they will force some kind of deal. :)

[Viper]

Immersion isn't losing anything is Sony doesn't use their tech because Immersion was never getting paid by Sony in the first place. It's a gold mine in potential profits, yes, but it's not like they'll be losing profits they once were making if Sony doesn't either.

Immersions pushyness is rather irritating at the moment but given the monetary potential, I almost don't blame them. Hell, this company is the one on your side, the gamers side, not Sony at the moment at least in regards to the situation.

[Xerxes]

The choices given are: "I would definitely not purchase a PS3 without rumble, I would be more likely to purchase an Xbox 360 with rumble, I would be more likely to purchase a Wii with rumble, I would buy a PS3 anyway, but I'd be disappointed [and] It would not affect my decision at all."


Where the choice for who gives a f***? I never used rumble anyway because it messes up my hand seriously. The rumble in controllers has shown to cause future hand problems, and is not really nessesary for games anyway.


Excessive use of some vibrating game console controllers may cause a syndrome normally associated with the use of pneumatic drills and other industrial machinery, according to British researchers.

Doctors in Liverpool have identified the first known case of hand-arm vibration syndrome resulting from use of a "rumble board" game controller. They recommend that console packaging carry a health warning to alert gamers to the possible risk.

Gavin Cleary, a paediatric rheumatoid specialist at the Royal Liverpool Children's Hospital, who contributed to a paper outlining the case, says that console packaging should warn players to be aware of early symptoms such as pain of tingling in the hands. Currently packaging only warns about visual disorders.

Vibrating controllers are designed to make computer games feel more realistic. They shake when a player crashes, for example.

Early symptoms
The 15-year-old boy played Sony's Playstation console for seven hours a day, with the vibrating console controller constantly switched on. He was particularly fond of playing a driving game, the doctors say.

His hands became painful and swollen while playing. Laboratory tests confirmed that he has no tissue disorder that could have caused the symptoms, and doctors believe that excessive game-playing using the vibrating controller must be the underlying cause.

The condition cannot be reversed. But symptoms only appear when the sufferer holds something that vibrates, such as a drill.

Hand-arm vibration syndrome was recognised in the UK as an industrial disorder, resulting from the use of pneumatic drills and gas-powered chain saws, in 1985. This led to changes to the design of such tools.

Excessive use
David Wilson, head of public relations for Sony in the UK, stresses that all Playstation product packaging already comes with numerous warnings about excessive use. Wilson says Sony will consider the possibility of adding specific vibration warnings.

"We already have extensive warnings, but if there is something that needs additional mention, we will look at that very seriously," he told New Scientist.

Sony recommends taking a 15-minute break for every hour spent playing a game. Wilson says that no similar symptoms have ever been reported among the company's own game testers. "They play the games more than anyone," he says.

Journal Reference: British Medical Journal (vol 324 p301)

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1869

That is how my hands get with that crap on. I can not stand rumble, but I guess it is good for some people.

[Red_Eyes]

And then Sony show up at TGS with rumble, and everybody will suddenly change side and start hating on the rumble. Too typical.

[Xerxes]

And then Sony show up at TGS with rumble, and everybody will suddenly change side and start hating on the rumble. Too typical.

It's a good feature but not one that most people use anyway. I guess it is good to know it is there, I guess. Even if they don't put it in I can care less; I am still buying it. For Immersion putting such a poll means that they know that Sony is one of their biggest money makers (obviously). If they don't have that they basically lose money rather than gain. Sony is hard headed; I doubt that they will put rumble in their PS3 controllers now (after the mess with Immersion).

[Viper]

It's a good feature but not one that most people use anyway. I guess it is good to know it is there, I guess. Even if they don't put it in I can care less; I am still buying it. For Immersion putting such a poll means that they know that Sony is one of their biggest money makers (obviously). If they don't have that they basically lose money rather than gain. Sony is hard headed; I doubt that they will put rumble in their PS3 controllers now (after the mess with Immersion).
Most people don't use rumble?

They don't make any money from Sony at all.

They aren't losing anything as they never made money from Sony to begin with. Sony is merely potential money.

[Nameless]

Where the choice for who gives a f***? I never used rumble anyway because it messes up my hand seriously. The rumble in controllers has shown to cause future hand problems, and is not really nessesary for games anyway.



http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1869

That is how my hands get with that crap on. I can not stand rumble, but I guess it is good for some people.

This info sounds like some straight up bullshit! It sounds like individuals looking for a potential lawsuit... Reminds me of the guy who got burned by a cup of coffee from McDonalds and won a huge lawsuit requiring the "caution hot" message on all coffee cups... (Perhaps that story is an urban legend, but you understand my point...)

I agree the rumble feature is not a deal breaker, but it is something that bothers me considering why it's not being included... Peace

[Xerxes]

Most people don't use rumble?

They don't make any money from Sony at all.

They aren't losing anything as they never made money from Sony to begin with. Sony is merely potential money.

Sony will sell their system regardless of rumble. I still have not heard anyone say that they will drop the PS3 because "it does not have rumble". Immersion needs money this is the reason why they are starting this "poll" mess. It is true though that Sony are the potential money makers, but this will most likely not stop anyone from buying the PS3 at all.

They will make money once they rake millions from the lawsuit with Sony.

[Xerxes]

This info sounds like some straight up bullshit! It sounds like individuals looking for a potential lawsuit... Reminds me of the guy who got burned by a cup of coffee from McDonalds and won a huge lawsuit requiring the "caution hot" message on all coffee cups... (Perhaps that story is an urban legend, but you understand my point...)

I agree the rumble feature is not a deal breaker, but it is something that bothers me considering why it's not being included... Peace

First of all, people will always find ways to get money (Wendy's finger in soup stunt), so no worries there. It is not "bullshit" as you say; it is true and it is affecting alot of people, including me. There would not have been an option to turn it off it it was not a hazard to people. The McDonalds "hot coffee" was something that affected one person; this affects many. McDonalds supposedly added the "caution hot" so people could not sue them again.

[Viper]

Sony will sell their system regardless of rumble. I still have not heard anyone say that they will drop the PS3 because "it does not have rumble". Immersion needs money this is the reason why they are starting this "poll" mess. It is true though that Sony are the potential money makers, but this will most likely not stop anyone from buying the PS3 at all.

They will make money once they rake millions from the lawsuit with Sony.
No one here is saying the PS3 won't sell without rumble. Not even Immersion believes that but the poll requires the questions to be sas specific as it can like that ot else it serves no purpose (which most of us here agree it serves little purpose anyway). Immersion doesn't 'need' money no more so than any other company. They simply see a golden opportunity and are capitalising on it.

[Freak]

Why????

The case against sony is bogus. Why do you think there fighting it? They know that immersion was in trouble financially and desided to sift through patents.

I side with sony on this one I say fight tooth and nail and run them into the ground due to legal battles.

Plus have you ever took a look at the inside of a dual shock? It's very simple and I think there's no way in hell immersion should take credit for the tech when all it is is a damned motor with a counter weight (chunk of metel). When the concept and use of counter weights have been around since medieval times.

[Beenie Man]

Like I have stated before, it is all about money. Everything is money.

[woundingchaney]

The case against sony is bogus. Why do you think there fighting it? They know that immersion was in trouble financially and desided to sift through patents.

I side with sony on this one I say fight tooth and nail and run them into the ground due to legal battles.

Plus have you ever took a look at the inside of a dual shock? It's very simple and I think there's no way in hell immersion should take credit for the tech when all it is is a damned motor with a counter weight (chunk of metel). When the concept and use of counter weights have been around since medieval times.


Seeing as how Immersion WON the case I highly doubt that it was bogus, even so them winning in the court of law is all that requires for the case to not be bogus. Im not personally aware of many of the details behind the case, but Im sure Immersion had some viable complaint and perhaps maybe Sony did step a little out of line when using the tech., if anything Sony should have settled outside of court and paid royalties for the rest of the generation if they wanted to avoid the fiasco.

The use of counter weights far out-dates the medieval era, even so your description of the patent process would make it nearly impossible to patent anything.

If anything Im surprised that you blame Immersion, especially seeing as how I or nearly anyone else in the situation would have done the same thing (sue). But to each their own.

[ddaryl]

This info sounds like some straight up bullshit! It sounds like individuals looking for a potential lawsuit... Reminds me of the guy who got burned by a cup of coffee from McDonalds and won a huge lawsuit requiring the "caution hot" message on all coffee cups... (Perhaps that story is an urban legend, but you understand my point...)

I agree the rumble feature is not a deal breaker, but it is something that bothers me considering why it's not being included... Peace



Dude, there are all kinds of nerve damage from people who use power tools daily, or hand riveters, or anyone who does something repetively that has some sort of vibration emminating from it. It's been proven many times over, and its one of the reasons companies practice ergonomics. There has alreay been lawsuits over this in industry, and it has been justified.

Vibration nerve damage is 100% real, do a little research before flying off the handle and calling it BS.

That being said controller vibration is not to the extreme of jack hammers and hand riveters.

[ddaryl]

Well they never got anything from Sony for PS2 to begin with so they aren't losing money at all. Immersion Corp is doing all it can to put rumble in the PS3, it's Sony that doesn't want to pay for it that's keeping it out of the PS3.

It's Immersion who has much more to lose then Sony. Immersion has to look at this as the business deal it is. Does Immersion want to put its rumble feature into 100+ million PS3 controllers, and be included in all the 3rd party controllers for the PS3. If Sony doesn't put rumble in at launch, there will be little support for it through 3rd parties.


and why should Sony pay for rumble ? That's just less profit for Sony and their shareholders. Plus it won't effect PS3 sales at all IMO.

If Immersion wants to do business with Sony then Immersion will have to make the consessions. Sony is going to hold out until they get deal they want, or it's no deal.

[bRoNx]

The patent system is kinda 50/50. It's good if you've spent your entire life working and experimenting something and finally coming up with a way to do something - then you patent it. Protect your efforts.

But when you have such a basic idea that anyone with half a brain would be able to think up of, given a need for it, then I don't think it should been granted a patent, due to the fact that anyone who'll need it, would come up with the same solution 9 times out of 10.

Immersion, although they weren't already earning money from SONY, clearly see SONY as a BIG potential for profits! Look at them, clowning around making an ass of themselves! Just put a deal on the table, then shut up! Stop trying to rally up SONY's fans behind your "PS3 needs rumble" propaganda...it's making you look like a crackfiend longing for a hit!

m@o

[woundingchaney]

It's Immersion who has much more to lose then Sony. Immersion has to look at this as the business deal it is. Does Immersion want to put its rumble feature into 100+ million PS3 controllers, and be included in all the 3rd party controllers for the PS3. If Sony doesn't put rumble in at launch, there will be little support for it through 3rd parties.


and why should Sony pay for rumble ? That's just less profit for Sony and their shareholders. Plus it won't effect PS3 sales at all IMO.

If Immersion wants to do business with Sony then Immersion will have to make the consessions. Sony is going to hold out until they get deal they want, or it's no deal.


Agreed

[Viper]

The patent system is kinda 50/50. It's good if you've spent your entire life working and experimenting something and finally coming up with a way to do something - then you patent it. Protect your efforts.

But when you have such a basic idea that anyone with half a brain would be able to think up of, given a need for it, then I don't think it should been granted a patent, due to the fact that anyone who'll need it, would come up with the same solution 9 times out of 10.



You can't patent an idea, only the technology behind it. Immersion Corp patented the technology they created and Sony used the exact same technology in their controllers. Immersion isn't suiing because they used rumble but because they used the exact same technology Immersion already created.

Are you guys playing blind faith to Sony here? Would you be so against Immersion if they were going after MS (which they did and MS settled out of court) or Nintendo (who have their own rumble technology patents)?

[gljvd]

Its smart what they are doing . Getting people and devs pissed off at sony for breaking the law and not wanting to own up to it.

[OmniCloud]

Its smart what they are doing . Getting people and devs pissed off at sony for breaking the law and not wanting to own up to it.It sucks for those of us who want our PS3 to have both technologies tho. The consumers pay for the company's financial debacles.

[OmniCloud]

Its smart what they are doing . Getting people and devs pissed off at sony for breaking the law and not wanting to own up to it.It sucks for those of us who want our PS3 to have both technologies tho. The consumers pay for the company's financial debacle.

[gljvd]

It sucks for those of us who want our PS3 to have both technologies tho. The consumers pay for the company's financial debacles.

Complain to sony , don't bitch about immersion or make excuses for sony .

Thats if you want this to change.

According to the United States Goverment in this case , Sony is the bad guy

[Freak]

Seeing as how Immersion WON the case I highly doubt that it was bogus, even so them winning in the court of law is all that requires for the case to not be bogus. Im not personally aware of many of the details behind the case, but Im sure Immersion had some viable complaint and perhaps maybe Sony did step a little out of line when using the tech., if anything Sony should have settled outside of court and paid royalties for the rest of the generation if they wanted to avoid the fiasco.

The use of counter weights far out-dates the medieval era, even so your description of the patent process would make it nearly impossible to patent anything.

If anything Im surprised that you blame Immersion, especially seeing as how I or nearly anyone else in the situation would have done the same thing (sue). But to each their own.

People get wrongfully charged with murder from time to time. The court found them gulity so they must have done it! That's a crappy way to look at things if no murder was commeted by that person, but still found guilty thats a bogus case IMO and sony has every right to fight tooth and nail for what they believe is an unrelated technology (I'm with sony on this).

If you look at the immerson patents you see fundamental differences (which is what sony is trying to prove) and just so you know sony is still fighting immerson. immerson may have won 1 case, but have yet to win the battle and sony is large enough to run this type of company straight into the ground with legal fee's.

[gljvd]

Freak, you should read up on the cases .

The immersion tech is very valid and sony infringes on many of thier pattents .

They developed this for handicap people to allow tactile feel when using the gui of a windows pc and other devices.

Ms's , Nintendo's and Sony's rumble features use the ideas patented. Whats worse , Immersion showed sony this tech , tehy turned them away and later on released the dual shock.

Sony has been twice (it could be 3 times now ) been found guilty.

[Freak]

Freak, you should read up on the cases .

The immersion tech is very valid and sony infringes on many of thier pattents .

They developed this for handicap people to allow tactile feel when using the gui of a windows pc and other devices.

Ms's , Nintendo's and Sony's rumble features use the ideas patented. Whats worse , Immersion showed sony this tech , tehy turned them away and later on released the dual shock.

Sony has been twice (it could be 3 times now ) been found guilty.

I have read up on them, but i'm not a mindless drone that can't see or think for myself courts spoon feed people BS all the time and I think sony should not have lost there case! I chalk it up to the morons in the court room that couldn't understand all the tech babble and just went by a patent without looking at it indepth.

I think sony will win in the long run though so people can disagree all they want it isn't going to change my mind that I think sony was in the right and still doesn't change my mind that our court systems are the biggest load of sh*t ever.

[DC_613]

This is some funny shi7 though i mean Immersion are so desperate, im going to laugh again, HAHAHAHAHA man it feels good, crash and burn Immersion.

[gljvd]

I have read up on them, but i'm not a mindless drone that can't see or think for myself courts spoon feed people BS all the time and I think sony should not have lost there case! I chalk it up to the morons in the court room that couldn't understand all the tech babble and just went by a patent without looking at it indepth.

I think sony will win in the long run though so people can disagree all they want it isn't going to change my mind that I think sony was in the right and still doesn't change my mind that our court systems are the biggest load of sh*t ever.


Thats great.


I think the biggest load of shit is that You still believe sony is right , yet two other companys settled out of court and almost everyone that makes force feedback devices except sony liscenses from Immersion .

Do you honestly think that with all the money ms has , if they thought they could win , they wouldn't have fought ?

Think what you want . However the mentality you have will fix nothing.

Its now up to sony to fix this , they need to pay thier debts and include immersions new tech .

That is the way this gets fixed , that is the way sony's fans get the best . Not the path sony is currently on

[cliffbo]

Maya, Sony could have settled out of court just like MS did.

Lalilu, Immersion did use the tech in other products.

why should sony pay for something they developed themselves?

[cliffbo]

Freak, you should read up on the cases .

The immersion tech is very valid and sony infringes on many of thier pattents .

They developed this for handicap people to allow tactile feel when using the gui of a windows pc and other devices.

Ms's , Nintendo's and Sony's rumble features use the ideas patented. Whats worse , Immersion showed sony this tech , tehy turned them away and later on released the dual shock.

Sony has been twice (it could be 3 times now ) been found guilty.

of course Sony took a look at it. any company would check something out to see if it was better than their own design. obviously it wasn't so Sony went with their own design. thats business.

[cliffbo]

Its smart what they are doing . Getting people and devs pissed off at sony for breaking the law and not wanting to own up to it.

do you work for immersion i see a similar stratigy in your posts. :) love man.

of course it was a complete coincidence that Immersion waited for the PS2 to sell nearly a hundred million before they filed. Immersion just saw an opportunity to make money.

[Black Dragon37]

Isn't the whole point of poll to add more pressure on Sony? Despite the fact that it's one-sided, if people do agree that Sony should add rumble, would Sony comply with them?

[Stelio]

SONY should license the rumble feature from either Mad Catz or Logitech and license the feature out for tilt, to them.

This would offset everything and add backwards compatability. The great thing about this is that it would allow SONY to implement the feature in a timely fashion for the scheduled launch window.

I should be a consultant (lol).


- STELIO

[Viper]

*sigh*

immerson may have won 1 case, but have yet to win the battle and sony is large enough to run this type of company straight into the ground with legal fee's.Assumption. Sony appealed twice already and lost, MS (far bigger than Sony), settled out of court. Do you know Immersions financial and legal standings to assume Sony can tun them in the ground with basic legal fees?

Ms's , Nintendo's and Sony's rumble features use the ideas patented. Whats worse , Immersion showed sony this tech , tehy turned them away and later on released the dual shock.

Sony has been twice (it could be 3 times now ) been found guilty.Nintendo did not use Immersion tech, they developed their own in 1996 and patented it. Years before Immersion patented theirs.

I have read up on them, but i'm not a mindless drone that can't see or think for myself courts spoon feed people BS all the time and I think sony should not have lost there case! I chalk it up to the morons in the court room that couldn't understand all the tech babble and just went by a patent without looking at it indepth.

I think sony will win in the long run though so people can disagree all they want it isn't going to change my mind that I think sony was in the right and still doesn't change my mind that our court systems are the biggest load of sh*t ever.You obviously don't know much about the court system and again you assume that the highly intelligent people in the court system to be tech morons. The tech behind this is simple yet they deal with technology every day that would make your head spin.

So you think the court after denying Sony two appeals already will suddenly have a change of heart?

yet two other companys settled out of courtOnly MS settled because NCL was never sued in the first place as I mentioned above.

why should sony pay for something they developed themselves?Because after taking a look at Immersion tech they recreated the same thing which is illegal and why Immersion is winning the case. If they inadvertantly created the same tech, then chalk that up to Sony not doing one of the most basic steps of technology design....find out if someone already did it.


of course it was a complete coincidence that Immersion waited for the PS2 to sell nearly a hundred million before they filed. Immersion just saw an opportunity to make money.They could have waited, that's their perrogative though. However, many times the infringment goes unnoticed for years. Do you think the heads of Immersion Corp are gamers? Remeber, they made the tech for the medical community, they don't follow the games industry.

[edoshin]

This debate is breaking down along the same 'ol lines again.

The whole point of the poll is stupid in the first place.

[cliffbo]

They could have waited, that's their perrogative though. However, many times the infringment goes unnoticed for years. Do you think the heads of Immersion Corp are gamers? Remeber, they made the tech for the medical community, they don't follow the games industry.

so who told them?!

[Stelio]

Guys...read my earlier post. This may be our only hope.


- STELIO

[Xerxes]

Thats great.


I think the biggest load of shit is that You still believe sony is right , yet two other companys settled out of court and almost everyone that makes force feedback devices except sony liscenses from Immersion .

Do you honestly think that with all the money ms has , if they thought they could win , they wouldn't have fought ?

Think what you want . However the mentality you have will fix nothing.

Its now up to sony to fix this , they need to pay thier debts and include immersions new tech .

That is the way this gets fixed , that is the way sony's fans get the best . Not the path sony is currently on

What will that solve? Nothing. It is not like Sony is getting any profit from including that technology anyway. The PS3 will still sell regardless.

[Viper]

What will that solve? Nothing. It is not like Sony is getting any profit from including that technology anyway. The PS3 will still sell regardless.
It would also sell without half the crap in there as well. It's just another, yet very cheap, feature that not only enhances gameplay but gamers have become accustomed to it already.

[gljvd]

of course Sony took a look at it. any company would check something out to see if it was better than their own design. obviously it wasn't so Sony went with their own design. thats business.

Thats the problem , sony wetn with Immersions design , not thier own .

The dual shock infringes on so many of immersions pattents its not even funny , the under lying tech of the dual shock is a complete rip off.

[gljvd]

What will that solve? Nothing. It is not like Sony is getting any profit from including that technology anyway. The PS3 will still sell regardless.


It will get users force feedback . Which is a plus for us is it not ?

I've had force feed back since my n64 and I want it in this gen.

[Xerxes]

It would also sell without half the crap in there as well. It's just another, yet very cheap, feature that not only enhances gameplay but gamers have become accustomed to it already.

And? That doesn't matter at all. No one is accustomed to Wii yet yet many people think that it will sell like hotcakes. Putting Immersion's technology in their is a waste of money and time. Immersion is really the only one benefiting.

Also "half" of the stuff that is in there is beneficiary for the console itself. There is only a few items (card reader, WiFi) that you can live without. Especially this technology.

[bRoNx]

@ gljvd: Your American court system is almost as sh*tty as your government! Just because they ruled against SONY, it doesn't mean they're wrong - it just means that SONY has failed to convey their argument in a favourable manner to Immersion's. Either way, your courts found OJ innocent, so as far as they're concerned, they can...nevermind.

@ viper: I understand that it's the technology that SONY violated in Immersion's patents, but something so simple as using counter-weights for vibration? C'mon, I'm sure many people who wanted to make anything vibrate would've come across that idea during their designs - that's how simple it is. Is it really a good idea to grant a patent for something so fsck'n simple?

It's not that I'm pro-SONY, that's no secret. It's just that Immersion's method's is a little bullsh*t: design it (something that a high school student could've come up with) > patent it > sit on it and wait for someone to take the bait > wait until they're so far into production that it'll be impossible for them to use another technology (basically leave them with no choice but to pay up) > then finally SUE THEM!

Do you guys seriously think that Immersion never looked at the Dual Shock 2 and thought -- "I wonder if they're using our technology". Now they're trying to force SONY into taking their technology for the DS3? Ok. So you shoot the guy in the foot, then you try and shake his hand and be friends? I think the Japanese giant would be too proud to go to bed with a company that's trying to steal from them...even if the American courts (joke) claims that it's "lawful" stealing.

Edit: I could be wrong!

[woundingchaney]

@ gljvd: Your American court system is almost as sh*tty as your government! Just because they ruled against SONY, it doesn't mean they're wrong - it just means that SONY has failed to convey their argument in a favourable manner to Immersion's. Either way, your courts found OJ innocent, so as far as they're concerned, they can...nevermind.

Im sorry I have removed my out-burst as it was unprofessional and hope no harm was done.

If you have a problem with the ruling that is one thing but to classify the entire American government system is another. If anything the government system is situated to favor the accused (to a degree), even in a situation such as this. I have many issues with aspects of American life and policys within my country but I do believe in our court system (for the most part).
Im not sure how completely knowledgeable you are of our system???

[Infernal]

Wow this threads gotten pretty crazy, so I am just going to pretend none of it ever happened and pretend I am the first poster.

Well its obvious what Immersion is trying to do here, with this and that announcement they made awhile ago about their vibration being compatible with the tilt feature. They are trying to prove to everyone that Sony can add rumble and that everyone wants rumble, and by doing so put pressure on Sony so they will add it before launch. Immersion has more to lose than Sony here because 100+ million controllers equals alot of money for them. Sony doesnt have much to lose as I doubt vibration would really effect console sales at all, maybe a few diehard vibration addicts, but not many.

[bRoNx]

Bullshit

If you have a problem with the ruling that is one thing but to classify the entire American government system is another. If anything the government system is situated to favor the accused (to a degree), even in a situation such as this.

Ok, I'll admit it's a bit much to bag the whole system as crap, but I will say this: I've seen enough crap get through your court system that it's hard to class it as anything but.

Back on topic.

I hope SONY out about this soon. Immersion is coming at them fullspeed, and they ain't saying sh*t. I s'pose their silence is not unusual, but it'll be good to get their stance on things.

[woundingchaney]

Ok, I'll admit it's a bit much to bag the whole system as crap, but I will say this: I've seen enough crap get through your court system that it's hard to class it as anything but.

The remark was removed and I apologize. I think perhaps you are entirely too dependant on the media version of our court system.

[bRoNx]

The remark was removed and I apologize.It's all good, bro. Afterall, it's a discussion and you're entitled to your opinion - however harsh or direct. Better than sugarcoating something in fear of hurting another's feelings, because then you're be lying to yourself! (Sounds like some soundbite from those 'chick flicks'! Deep sh*t! lol)
I think perhaps you are entirely too dependant on the media version of our court system.
You're right...to a certain extend. Although alot of my opinion was built (wrongly) mostly by the outrageous stories we hear about in the media, some of the political threads that I read about on the 'net just stuns me!

[woundingchaney]

It's all good, bro. Afterall, it's a discussion and you're entitled to your opinion - however harsh or direct. Better than sugarcoating something in fear of hurting another's feelings, because then you're be lying to yourself! (Sounds like some soundbite from those 'chick flicks'! Deep sh*t! lol)

You're right...to a certain extend. Although alot of my opinion was built (wrongly) mostly by the outrageous stories we hear about in the media, some of the political threads that I read about on the 'net just stuns me!
Im very glad you werent affended.

I agree that sugarcoating issues can be problematic, although outbursts help nothing either.

LOL in all reality Im just reasonably intelligent lower middle class brute and thanks for being understanding.

:beer:

[Freak]

O man lol it cracks me up that any of you guys have faith in the court systems. Let me tell you i've been screwed over more then once by them for something I didn't even do!

All I have to say is sony got the shit end of the stick.

All in all I say fu*K the patent system it's a pile of junk! I say let people fight there similar technologys on the open market and may the best man/companys win.

[woundingchaney]

O man lol it cracks me up that any of you guys have faith in the court systems. Let me tell you i've been screwed over more then once by them for something I didn't even do!

I cant believe that so many are willing to condemn one of the strong points of American Civilization, what system of justice do you favor???

I dont think its the justice system that is bad is people that are in charge of the system itself that have alterior political motives or conficting views. But hey guess what you can elect judges, mayor, sherriffs, you can find your own attorney, you can appeal and re-appeal. And most importantly you have numerous rights granted as an American and you ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Infact the person accused has the upper hand in nearly every situation, yet the system is horrid and not worth maintaining. Anyone can mention a handful of cases that turned out to be three ring circus' although no one ever mentions the million - billions of cases that justice was executed flawlessly (by matter of the Law - which you can change).

Sorry if I dont agree.


All I have to say is sony got the shit end of the stick.

All in all I say fu*K the patent system it's a pile of junk! I say let people fight there similar technologys on the open market and may the best man/companys win.

You must be a spokesman for Microsoft, as Im sure every major corporation would love to have you for their mouth piece.:cowboy:

[Viper]

And? That doesn't matter at all. No one is accustomed to Wii yet yet many people think that it will sell like hotcakes. Putting Immersion's technology in their is a waste of money and time. Immersion is really the only one benefiting.Yet the Wii still has rumble. Low blow perhaps, but the truth. How is it a waste of time and money? Are you familiar with the associated costs and time frames for implementation? Will you stand for Sony to remove piece by piece any form of interaction so long as it doesn't cost Sony any money? Come on man. Do you want rumble or do you want Sony to save a few bucks that you'll never see?




It's not that I'm pro-SONY, that's no secret. It's just that Immersion's method's is a little bullsh*t: design it (something that a high school student could've come up with) > patent it > sit on it and wait for someone to take the bait > wait until they're so far into production that it'll be impossible for them to use another technology (basically leave them with no choice but to pay up) > then finally SUE THEM!

Do you guys seriously think that Immersion never looked at the Dual Shock 2 and thought -- "I wonder if they're using our technology".

Edit: I could be wrong!
Immersion did use the technology in the medical field. It's what Immersion Corp originally created all rumble tech for. They didn't sit on it, it's been used in dozens of medical products and handicapped technology for over a decade. This is also why they never looked at the PS2. They were not a games technology supplier. If you created something, patented it and I used the same thing in a completely different field but was your design, how long do you think it would take you to notice? A year? Two? A decade perhaps?

The part I bolded makes me proud to have you as a member.

[The_One]

Thats the problem , sony wetn with Immersions design , not thier own .

The dual shock infringes on so many of immersions pattents its not even funny , the under lying tech of the dual shock is a complete rip off.
That is soooo out of the left field that I'm just going to say this:
The lawsuit was over the concept of Force Feedback, not the design of the rumble AT ALL!! That's a misconception on almost everyone's part, not just you, so don't think I'm just picking at you.

[Freak]

I cant believe that so many are willing to condemn one of the strong points of American Civilization, what system of justice do you favor???

I dont think its the justice system that is bad is people that are in charge of the system itself that have alterior political motives or conficting views. But hey guess what you can elect judges, mayor, sherriffs, you can find your own attorney, you can appeal and re-appeal. And most importantly you have numerous rights granted as an American and you ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Infact the person accused has the upper hand in nearly every situation, yet the system is horrid and not worth maintaining. Anyone can mention a handful of cases that turned out to be three ring circus' although no one ever mentions the million - billions of cases that justice was executed flawlessly (by matter of the Law - which you can change).

Sorry if I dont agree.



You must be a spokesman for Microsoft, as Im sure every major corporation would love to have you for their mouth piece.:cowboy:


I not going to get into it. It seems my veiws are not so popular, but I was not innocent until proven guilty! I was guilty until proven guilty which was proven by the fact that I had to sit in a cell tell trial was over to be found guilty for something I didn't do. Maybe you have good faith in the system because you haven't been screwed over by the court! This happened to me not only once, but twice and i'll tell you what its bogus as shit to be blamed for something you didn't do....

Also if I was a microsoft spokesman why would I be saying sony got the shit end of the stick lol.

Maybe a sony spokesman if anything. ;)

j/k

[gljvd]

yea its bogus shit to be blamed for something you didn't do , better to sit in a cell for a few months than to be shot and killed though.

Also why didn't u post bail ? I find it odd it happened to you twice ... was there something else in your past to make you such a likely suspect ?

I was in jail once for 2 nights and was set free as soon as I was able to post bail and 5 months later i had court and the case was thrown out , I got my money back sans 2k in lawyer fees

[frosty]

That is soooo out of the left field that I'm just going to say this:
The lawsuit was over the concept of Force Feedback, not the design of the rumble AT ALL!! That's a misconception on almost everyone's part, not just you, so don't think I'm just picking at you.


So have both Ninty and MS payed Immersion? I know Ninty had force feedback before DS came in to play. (although nowhere near as good) I know MS settled, but what about N?

[woundingchaney]

I not going to get into it. It seems my veiws are not so popular, but I was not innocent until proven guilty! I was guilty until proven guilty which was proven by the fact that I had to sit in a cell tell trial was over to be found guilty for something I didn't do. Maybe you have good faith in the system because you haven't been screwed over by the court! This happened to me not only once, but twice and i'll tell you what its bogus as shit to be blamed for something you didn't do....

Also if I was a microsoft spokesman why would I be saying sony got the shit end of the stick lol.

Maybe a sony spokesman if anything. ;)

j/k


I as well have been accused of quite a few things only I did do them (LOL), mostly battery charges and similar petty things.


sorry to hear of your bad run in with American courts

[cliffbo]

a spokesperson for immersion said a while back that they were watching nintendo and that they have took no action as there would not be as much incentive to sue nintendo.
i can only presume that he meant not enough revenue would be gained by a lawsuit against nintendo due to the fact that the rumble was an addon and as such amount of sales would have relatively low.

anyway i hope they strike a deal and reinstate rumble even though it`s not absolutely essential.
:)

[OmniCloud]

anyway i hope they strike a deal and reinstate rumble even though it`s not absolutely essential.I keep hearing people say that..But when you first turn off rumble in a game that rumbles a lot-u do notice it's missing. In Sony defense games that take full advantage of the new controller (camera and vehicle movement, acceleration, flying,ect...) will probably not hurt as much. But the early launch games like Resistance, Heavenly Sword and Lair will defintely benefit by having the rumble. I mean-everytime you see or hear an explosion-your controller is supposed to shake from the impact! It's just STANDARD now. Can you Imagine if a game like Killzone or Gears of War didn't rumble with all the shooting, debris, and explosions going on around you? I applaud Sony for looking into new tech and putting it into their controller. It is the next step for enhancing gameplay. But don't strip away the steps that got you here, it's just not logical-and in a way not revolutionary at all...

[Beenie Man]

I hope somebody from Sony just read what you wrote(if they even read forums for info).

[OmniCloud]

chances are not too good that they do Beenie...lol Trust me tho-with all the magazine publications, letters, and the massive Internet-Sony knows that most people want to have both features. It's just a matter of whether they can do it before launch, the whole Immersion thing, and how much will it cost them...

[Viper]

That is soooo out of the left field that I'm just going to say this:
The lawsuit was over the concept of Force Feedback, not the design of the rumble AT ALL!! That's a misconception on almost everyone's part, not just you, so don't think I'm just picking at you.
Sorry, The_One but that is incorrect. The technology used must actually infringe on the design specifications or else no lawsuit. All that needs to be different to bypass copyright infringment is 3 differences in implementation. It has been proven that Sony did not have 3 differences of implementation in their design vs the one patented by Immersion. There are two patents in the case. I've read both patents and they are extremely specific and nothign vague about them.

Nintendo has it's own technology that they've patented back in 1996 and that's why Immersion never bothered with Nintendo. They also hold patents for rumble in GBA carts, DS carts, GC controllers and Wii controllers.

[Xerxes]

The technology will not matter to most people this gen, so it does not really matter. Immersion hack away! Your not getting any potential money!

[OmniCloud]

Xexes-don't be so sure...Read my above comment. I think many others agree with me on this one bro...

[Xerxes]

They [consumers] want the feature but I don't think it will affect business in the least.

[OmniCloud]

Yeah ur probably right about that one...It really sucks tho-we're the ones that give corporations our hard earned money and our voices can't even be heard! That's why I'm getting a 360 BEFORE I get a PS3-there take that SONY!!!

lol...

[Xerxes]

Yeah ur probably right about that one...It really sucks tho-we're the ones that give corporations our hard earned money and our voices can't even be heard! That's why I'm getting a 360 BEFORE I get a PS3-there take that SONY!!!

lol...

Lol. But you're still getting a PS3. haha. Having rumble would be awsome for Immersion and gamers; I guess Sony is mad at the fact that they got sued by Immersion.

I am still wondering how the rumble won't affect the Motion-Sensing Tilt in the PS3. It would, would'nt it?

[Viper]

I am still wondering how the rumble won't affect the Motion-Sensing Tilt in the PS3. It would, would'nt it?
When I first heard there would be no rumble because it would interfere, I figured it's plausible that Sony is using a more sensitive tilt system than needed or it's liquid based making it less accurate when rumbling.

It's a plausible excuse that rumble was removed due to interence but Immersion and others have stated they can get around that problem. Nintendo obviously has so who knows what the real story is.

[OmniCloud]

man..they better put on a rumble pack or something like N64 if they can't figure anything out...lol

[AbominatioN]

When I first heard there would be no rumble because it would interfere, I figured it's plausible that Sony is using a more sensitive tilt system than needed or it's liquid based making it less accurate when rumbling.

It's a plausible excuse that rumble was removed due to interence but Immersion and others have stated they can get around that problem. Nintendo obviously has so who knows what the real story is.

Nintendo has a different technology. They rely on external sensors to get the motion from the remote. That's why they have no problem with the rumble.

SONY on the other hand, has put (as far i understand) some kind of gyroscope inside the DS3. By putting rumble also, they will really have problems with the data from the gyroscope. I saw a couple of years ago a documentary for the technology that the new tanks have (auto lock target while moving @ 30Km/h) and it requires a lot of expensive high tech to isolate the gyroscope from the vibrations.

But i do want the rumble, so the solution that Kojima suggested is IMO the best for everybody.

[cliffbo]

Sony never stole rumble from immersion, they borrowed vibration from Anne Summers. mystery solved :)