Ninja Theory responses to questions about the RSX. [Archive]

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 09:08 AM

Everyone,

At the following link you will read a thread where several people asked Ninja Theory about the RSX. Please realize that in this thread many possibilities were mentioned from the extra cache, the possibility of the RSX being more like the 7950, and sub-processors.

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250&page=5

Here is their response.

If we were able to talk about the detailed specs of the RSX, we would have posted something here by now.

I *CAN* tell you that it kicks serious butt - but that's about it. :)

---

Of course we can't read too much into such a simple statement. But with all the talk of a super powerful RSX on that thread their statement is a little interesting. It might not be super significant. But at least it is something more than a general statement saying, "It is a suitable and capable processor" or something like that.

Told ya I would get some info on the RSX.

senas8

07-07-2006, 09:11 AM

Good one MILR...your endless search is getting near. :)

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 09:20 AM

Hmmmmmmmmm

gljvd

07-07-2006, 09:39 AM

haha , come on , what are they supposed to say ? It sucks ass ? Its just average ?

Wait for the specs MILR , then you can figure stuff out on your own

senas8

07-07-2006, 09:56 AM

HS doesn't seem like an average game with an average GPU.

OmniCloud

07-07-2006, 09:59 AM

gljvd

07-07-2006, 09:59 AM

HS doesn't seem like an average game with an average GPU.

No ? have you played it ?

Anyway , once again a poster who doesn't read what is writen . I have only pointed out that this is a typical pr statement .

If you were selling Cake , would u say "Hey but this cake , its average !" ? How about "Hey buy this cake , its not that good !"?

No of course not , you'd say " Buy this cake that tastes awsome!"

senas8

07-07-2006, 10:07 AM

Got it..."Cake is awsome"
Edit: If you take the guy's quote:
" I *CAN* tell you that it kicks serious butt - but that's about it"
and when the specs are revealed and the RSX turns out the be an "average"
You can than and there without a doubt.... debunk.

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 10:19 AM

Yeah gljvd of course he's gonna say that...but did you even consider that maybe it is pretty good. PS3 is launching a year after the competition-i think they would beef up the graphics card even a little just to say they have an edge on all fronts...
I honestly doubt that the additional delay of the PS3 or even the original 6 month differential between consoles has anything to do with the hardware associated in the consoles (other than of course BR).

I have no doubt that the RSX is powerful in its own right, but I sure as hell am not expecting a 7950 GX2 or some other extraordinarily powerful gpu. Taken the info we have been given it looks to be a 24 pipe, 8 vs, 8 rops, 256 meg, 550 clock gpu which in a console environment will be powerful.

I think perhaps MILR you are stressing the issue too much.

gljvd

07-07-2006, 10:23 AM

24 pixel pipes wounding ...

Anwyay , lots of people are expecting some crazy stuff and like to read into a ton of comments. All will be known in about 2-3 months

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 10:28 AM

24 pixel pipes wounding ...

Anwyay , lots of people are expecting some crazy stuff and like to read into a ton of comments. All will be known in about 2-3 months
Yeah the 24 pipes would mimmick the 7xxx architecture (at its highest) and were as that is a stretch its not completely out of the question at this point.
At this point Im leaning towards 24, what my main interest is if any of these pipes are going to be dis-enabled for yield concerns. It seems somewhere I ran into documents stating there would be 24 pipes, but with all the rumors running around who knows.

But you are of course right 20 or even 16 is likely as well.

gljvd

07-07-2006, 10:32 AM

Na , I think the 12 rops (one quad disabled to make 8 usable for better yields) 24 pixel pipes , 8 vertex shaders and additional hardware for ps2/1 bc along with flexio bus is about what we are going to get

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 10:35 AM

gljvd

07-07-2006, 10:37 AM

na you forgot some stuff that i added :-)

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 10:38 AM

na you forgot some stuff that i added :-)
Your wearing me down man :hugegrin:

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 10:45 AM

I would hope that if the RSX was only a pretty good or average graphics processor (which it actually is if it's only a slightly modified 7800/7900 with less bandwidth, latency issues when reading from the XDR, and other performance penalties) then they would not be so obvious about bragging about it's power. If it was just a slightly modified 7800 then they should just say, "It fits our needs and works fine in our devkits." or something similiar.

Saying GREAT things about it really makes one feel it is possible the RSX could be something much more significant. Of course there is no way to know this from such a limited statement. But combined with other developers who claimed the final RSX was a lot faster than they thought, the fact we know it has extra cache, all the other rumors going around, and other bits of information going around make me feel this is another small piece of the puzzle.

Also, if you look at that thread you will see that some of the questions I asked were very, very simple. I don't see why a developer could not simply say, "No" if someone asked them if the RSX is some exotic brand of chip if *really* all we are getting is what was announced at E3 of 2005. But they could not answer any of the questions specifically for some reason even though they were very, very basic.

The silence on the RSX is just strange. I read so much about the Cell but so little about the RSX. I mean, from what we were told at E3 of 2005 I would think if that's *all* we are basically getting (perhaps with a few minor tweaks) there wouldn't be a problem confirming what they told us then! For goodness sakes, if it's just an issue of mhz they could have kept the other specifications and use the disclaimer "all specifications subject to change without notice" or something similiar.

Instead, they deleted *all* the specifications of the RSX from their spec sheet, said practically NOTHING about the RSX at E3, developers have been saying little or nothing, and even WITHOUT giving any numbers they are not hyping it at all.

Something makes me think we will get a few good surprises when they finally do release the specifications. It may be VERY major surprises (less based on the 7800 than we thought and perhaps something more original) or just things that we could have guessed like perhaps a little more RAM, extra cache, a boost in mhz, or whatever.

I agree with whoever said that with the delay it would make sense for Sony to continue working on the RSX, but at the same time for all we know part of the delay was that there was a lot of work left on the RSX. Remember, even recently it was stated that the DevKits only had GPU's clocked at 420MHZ! By now the yields on the 7800 should be so good that if the RSX has only a few differences then devs should have had the full specs long ago.

Putting together some information I have collected from here and there and from what a few people told me here is some speculation. I don't know if it's true, but it's interesting.

Basically, the RSX is more complex than an ordinary 7800 or 7900 and has some unique special features. However, until just before E3 of this year most developers were not even told about them. In the DevKits at E3 the RSX's being used did NOT have those features being turned on, included, utilized, or whatever. But when the FINAL DevKits started shipping the extra features were either just finalized, enabled, turned on, included, etc.

By the TGS we should see some even BETTER looking games.

Of course that's just speculation, but interesting.

By the way, everyone who is interested why don't you go to the Ninja Theory boards and thank them for the comment about the RSX! The truth is they didn't have to tell us anything at all. It would be nice for people to tell them it's appreciated.

frosty

07-07-2006, 11:04 AM

No ? have you played it ?

I have! I have seen this besat of a GPU pulling off things other consoles can only dream of. Heavenly sword looked amazing, but not as amazing as Wardevil. That game simply blew my mind. I have never seen ANY GPU, not console or PC, deliver that kind of graphical fidelity. No matter how close the camera zoomed on an object or character, there was no sign of low res texture blur. The tinyest cracks in the walls were visible and were so detailed it had me squinting to see if they actually rendered them using pure polys and not shaders and textures and such. My jaw sat on the floor the whole time. And to top it all off, once the splash screen popped up, it revealed it was running in 1080p. Amazing. More than 2x the resolution of any 360 title, and it was still the most detailed GFX I have ever seen. It even held a rock solid frame rate (which because of WMV compression, lags on the online version of e3xperience. This won't be the case with the DVD). The main character had a cartoony look about him, but by looking at the enemies he was blasting it was obvious this was for stylistic reasons. when it zoomed in on the enemies face, you could see every single wrinkle, tear, and blemish on it's skin. Amazing. I have never even seen a PC game that came close. Crysis didn't even achieve that level of fidelity, and it was causing the best PC rigs EA could come up with to chug along at about 15 FPS. After seeing and playing these games with my own 2 eyes in true HD, I have no doubt in my mind RSX will turn out to be a true beast.

gljvd

07-07-2006, 11:05 AM

lol , okay , your allowed your opinion . Personaly , HS was no where near as impressive as Gears of war . I played both at e3 .

But hey that is my opinon.

My jaw sat on the floor the whole time. And to top it all off, once the splash screen popped up, it revealed it was running in 1080p.
Sadly , this is not the case

IT was running at 720p with 4x fsaa . As The HS devs have stated on b3d .

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 11:09 AM

I have! I have seen this besat of a GPU pulling off things other consoles can only dream of. Heavenly sword looked amazing, but not as amazing as Wardevil. That game simply blew my mind. I have never seen ANY GPU, not console or PC, deliver that kind of graphical fidelity. No matter how close the camera zoomed on an object or character, there was no sign of low res texture blur. The tinyest cracks in the walls were visible and were so detailed it had me squinting to see if they actually rendered them using pure polys and not shaders and textures and such. My jaw sat on the floor the whole time. And to top it all off, once the splash screen popped up, it revealed it was running in 1080p. Amazing. More than 2x the resolution of any 360 title, and it was still the most detailed GFX I have ever seen. It even held a rock solid frame rate (which because of WMV compression, lags on the online version of e3xperience. This won't be the case with the DVD). The main character had a cartoony look about him, but by looking at the enemies he was blasting it was obvious this was for stylistic reasons. when it zoomed in on the enemies face, you could see every single wrinkle, tear, and blemish on it's skin. Amazing. I have never even seen a PC game that came close. Crysis didn't even achieve that level of fidelity, and it was causing the best PC rigs EA could come up with to chug along at about 15 FPS. After seeing and playing these games with my own 2 eyes in true HD, I have no doubt in my mind RSX will turn out to be a true beast.

I didnt think Wardevil was even on Sony hardware at this point, isnt the game still running off of PC hardware (as is the case with AC)????

gljvd

07-07-2006, 11:13 AM

Pistolero

07-07-2006, 11:14 AM

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 11:15 AM

gljvd

07-07-2006, 11:19 AM

Too pessimistic. It odesn't take a genius to figutre out that the RSX will match or exceed the top of the line nVidia GPU available as of now of the market. None should expect a multi-processor Raytracing rotator (lol), but those who believe they will be facing an average card are -I think- WAAAAY of...

So the rsx is going to match a 500$ video card that has its own pool of 512 megs of ram with a 256 bit bus attached to it just for graphical tasks ?

I think many forget what exactly is a top of the line nvidia gpu .

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 11:22 AM

So the rsx is going to match a 500$ video card that has its own pool of 512 megs of ram with a 256 bit bus attached to it just for graphical tasks ?

I think many forget what exactly is a top of the line nvidia gpu .
Well, JVD I have a top of the line Nvidia Gpu and no the RSX isnt going to match it spec for spec but the results (at this point anyways) are graphically similar, of course this is due to the nature of the console architecture and the ability to target hardware.

There is a difference between power and performance (but I think your statement and mine are targetting somewhat different debates).

If anything i strongly believe that the RSX will perform well in its intended environment.

Pistolero

07-07-2006, 11:30 AM

"So the rsx is going to match a 500$ video card that has its own pool of 512 megs of ram with a 256 bit bus attached to it just for graphical tasks ?"

Yep, pretty much. I strongly think it will outperform the G71 given the nature of the host and optimization routines. And nVidia keeps healthy margins...with PS3, they will compensate by huge royalties. Anyway, we shall see when the specifications are revealed and the programming techniques discussed by those in the know ?

Pistolero

07-07-2006, 11:32 AM

And I also think the architecture is different in RSX. The same philosophy, but different implementation of the NV47 technology. That's what I understood given some rather obscure comments by nVidia guys and one or two developers...

frosty

07-07-2006, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by gljvd
shhhh wounding , he made a number of mistakes in his post .

1) He never played it , he watched a video on a disc or downloaded (not too sure on which )

2) He claims it was at 1080p where as the devs have stated the game will be 720p with 4x fsaa . The only 1080p footage is from e3 2005 in which the game was running at a few frames per second and in a video editor was speed up to 30fps.

3) Wardevil has yet to be shown on real hardware , the last we saw it , was e3 2005.

Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about.

First, I was talking about Wardevil running at 1080p, not HS.
Second, I DID play it (HS) and DID see Wardevil running in real time on a PS3 devkit.

3) Wardevil has yet to be shown on real hardware , the last we saw it , was e3 2005.[/QUOTE]

That's the funniest part. The E3 06 demo WAS real time, and it WAS 1080p. It was obvious it was running in real time due to it's 60 FPS framerate and some visible aliasing. I know real time GFX when I see them. You need to study more before making obsurd assumptions.

Pistolero

07-07-2006, 11:43 AM

"DID see Wardevil running in real time on a PS3 devkit"

I was about to make the same comment but I was afraid to say an obscenity...lol...
I believed the game was targetting 1080p. Was it superior to other PS3 offerings ? I ask since you had the chance to see it in motion...
Thanks...

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 11:43 AM

man i put the wrong link in here and cant find the original one LOL

Ok it turns out that YES

There was some framerate issues (as to be expected at this point in development)

It was realtime

It was on PS3 hardware

NO

It wasnt gameplay

It wasnt playable

Maybe

It was 1080p

So Frosty was pretty accurate with his statement.

frosty

07-07-2006, 11:46 AM

yoshaw

07-07-2006, 11:53 AM

The mods have a cruel sense of irony for sure.

Anyways, I know for a fact that frosty has been at E3(duh!). But if JVD is claiming he was at E3 as well. I'd personally(hopefully others too) like to see a pic of his E3 badge, pronto, in order to even remotely consider his words genuine. He makes up too much stuff out of thin air that its very hard to believe him anymore. E3 Badge photos please, NOW!

And god damn, he hasn't learnt a single thing since last time, has he?! Ninja Theory is one of the most critically acclaimed game out of E3'06. What relation does it have with Gears of War at this point baffles me!

And why the funk does he have to bring in Gears of War in the thread when it's about RSX(or Heavenly Sword!) to begin with.

Personaly , HS was no where near as impressive as Gears of war . I played both at e3 .

WTF does the above statement contribute to the thread other than becoming a catalyst for heated debate about which of the two looks better or which platform is better. The result is clear, it messed up the thread bigtime.

frosty

07-07-2006, 11:57 AM

Funny thing is, GOW wasn't playable at E3. (on the floor, AT E3)

VG Aficionado

07-07-2006, 12:06 PM

jvd, you really need to stop posting BS and stop comparing PS3 to 360. We simply don't care about your pointless and uncalled-for comparisons and are not stupid enough to buy your FUD and ludicrous posts.

I know for a fact that frosty has been at E3(duh!). But if JVD is claiming he was at E3 as well. I'd personally(hopefully others too) like to see a pic of his E3 badge, pronto, in order to even remotely consider his words genuine.He claims to have played both games, yet Frosty says GOW wasn't available for the public (and he even questions Frosty's presence and witnessing). Something smells here...

frosty

07-07-2006, 12:16 PM

And yes JVD, an e3 badge pic would be great. I'm uploading DVD quality Wardevil and Heavy Rain footage now.

frosty

07-07-2006, 12:39 PM

DVD quality RSX vid (http://www.baysidevideoproductions.com/RSX.wmv)

yoshaw

07-07-2006, 12:39 PM

Well, JVD I have a top of the line Nvidia Gpu and no the RSX isnt going to match it spec for spec but the results (at this point anyways) are graphically similar, of course this is due to the nature of the console architecture and the ability to target hardware.

There is a difference between power and performance (but I think your statement and mine are targetting somewhat different debates).

If anything i strongly believe that the RSX will perform well in its intended environment.

Well said wounding. A console in a closed environment could provide developers a lot more ease in terms of pushing limits. Whereas the vague nature of the GPU installbase on the PC side is akin to Developers with handcuffs for limits. Admittedly, only a handful push the limits - e.g Doom3, HL2 and now Crysis. Note that these are still handful of developers!

I strongly support this part of your quote, Power and performance difference. IMO, PC is power no doubt and console is all about performance. Correct me if I kinda misplaced the two. hehe

:angel:

He claims to have played both games, yet Frosty says GOW wasn't available for the public (and he even questions Frosty's presence and witnessing). Something smells here...

Ooh, good point.

And yes JVD, an e3 badge pic would be great. I'm uploading DVD quality Wardevil and Heavy Rain footage now.

Thanks frosty, you da man! Download (link not working!)

And yes JVD. Mind putting a post-it paper in the pic too that says 'PSINext-JVD' next to your badge for proof's sake. Thanks :)

Told ya I would get some info on the RSX.

Good job. So you finally made some progress on it. I say keep sending them emails to every developer out there till they either ban your IP(:P j/k) or finally give in to your demands. Dedication bro. lol

VG Aficionado

07-07-2006, 12:45 PM

I definately have to agree with the power VS performance debate. PC's will always have a lot of brute force to be used in very inefficient ways, while developers will have more chances to exploit consoles beyond what could be expected.

Frosty, check your link please.

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 02:21 PM

Everyone,

If all of you would like to do so please go onto the Heavenly Sword thread I posted and both thank them for the comment and perhaps politely try to ask them a question that they could hopefully answer within the bounds of their NDA. I asked several *simple* questions and they really could not answer at all except for what I posted here. However, if enough of us keep asking them perhaps it would encourage other Ninja's on their staff to give us another hint or so.

Additionally, I have an idea. Could someone here from PSINext actually *call* Sony and say (it would be the truth), "I'm writing an article about the RSX the GPU that is going to be in your PS3 entertainment system. However, in my research I have came across a discrepency I need to ask you about. I see at E3 of 2005 a list of specifications for the RSX were released, but looking at the specification sheet from E3 of 2006 the specifications for the RSX are missing. May I ask if you would like for me to include those original specifications for the RSX in my article? Are they still going to be accurate or if not what should I include? I just want to describe the RSX as accurately and fairly as possible in my article, but this is a little confusing. Can you help me?"

Hey, perhaps they would say *something* in response to that. They *probably* would not give you any new specifications, but may they would tell us that there is an update on the way? This is just an idea of mine, but it would not hurt to try. Sony does have a PR number that the press can call to ask questions don't they?

yoshaw

07-07-2006, 02:43 PM

Additionally, I have an idea. Could someone here from PSINext actually *call* Sony and say (it would be the truth), "I'm writing an article about the RSX the GPU that is going to be in your PS3 entertainment system. However, in my research I have came across a discrepency I need to ask you about. I see at E3 of 2005 a list of specifications for the RSX were released, but looking at the specification sheet from E3 of 2006 the specifications for the RSX are missing. May I ask if you would like for me to include those original specifications for the RSX in my article? Are they still going to be accurate or if not what should I include? I just want to describe the RSX as accurately and fairly as possible in my article, but this is a little confusing. Can you help me?"

Hey, perhaps they would say *something* in response to that. They *probably* would not give you any new specifications, but may they would tell us that there is an update on the way? This is just an idea of mine, but it would not hurt to try. Sony does have a PR number that the press can call to ask questions don't they?

That's a decent approach but a bit naive I guess.

Pistolero

07-07-2006, 02:57 PM

You're too much into the "What's the mystery of RSX ?" that it becomes a little annoying. You have the part of the specifications at E3 2005 and others that the firm will publish in the near futur. I mean, why setting yourself for a disappointment ? It IS an EVOLUTION of the G70 architecture, one of the best PC cards available and a proven technology, modified to fit into console and take advantage of an extremely powerful processor. It IS very fast and that's all what we need to know...
Even if the specs were available, would it really matter ? Specs have never told the whole story...they are meaningless most of the time. You have the word of developers, and it's more than enough. I watch MGS4, Naughty dog game, FF XIII...trailers and I KNOW for sure that the GPU is a hell of a beast.

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 03:07 PM

Pistolero,

Look, I'm at the point that if the RSX is not some kind of uber chip I'm not going to drop to the floor crying or anything. More than anything else I want to find out the specifications so I can move on with mylife, get off the internet more, and be satisfied with what I know until I can actually buy a PS3 oneday.

By the way, I just asked on this thread...

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3558&posted=1#post3558

If they can at least confirm that the RSX is a single core processor. In my opinion, if the RSX is just a single core processor then that is basically what Sony told us at E3 of 2005 and there should be no reason why confirming that would be breaking an NDA! I mean, basically it would just be saying what Sony told us in 2005.

Now, I think there is a chance (not huge but possible and I consider reasonable) that there might be some sort of multicore feature on the RSX. But if it's not then I just want to find out and move on so it can be elminated as a possibility.

If anyone is reading this post of mine PLEASE go to the Ninja Theory thread I linked to above and ask them if they can confirm that the RSX is a single core GPU. The truth is that this CANNOT cause them to break their NDA *unless* the RSX is NOT single core.

Please ask them politely, nicely, and respectfully.

Just think what a denial from them would do to help eliminate the multicore rumors flowing around the internet!

Thanks!

kaphwan

07-07-2006, 03:46 PM

A sigh of relief from JVD's not reply.

And laughter from frosty's pwnage3.

Think about it. "Kicks serious butt" is colloquial language. You just don't use that phrasing when you aren't really impressed.

And there's some wicked NDA/'s which prevent him from saying what he wants to, indicating that Sony is indeed hiding something. It's that simple.

RavenFox

07-07-2006, 03:49 PM

Wow MILR you rock bro. Giving you rep for this. And what with that character JVD? I was like wtf man?

edit: Hey is that guy Wudi a Factor 5 dev? Sure sounds like it. Look at the last post in the thread MILR put up.

frosty

07-07-2006, 03:54 PM

link fixed!!! (http://www.baysidevideoproductions.com/RSX.wmv)

RavenFox

07-07-2006, 03:54 PM

woohoo downloading

VG Aficionado

07-07-2006, 04:02 PM

Funny. I fixed the link manually, but it didn't work.

Thanks frosty!

Jubal

07-07-2006, 04:05 PM

shhhh wounding , he made a number of mistakes in his post .

1) He never played it , he watched a video on a disc or downloaded (not too sure on which )

2) He claims it was at 1080p where as the devs have stated the game will be 720p with 4x fsaa . The only 1080p footage is from e3 2005 in which the game was running at a few frames per second and in a video editor was speed up to 30fps.

3) Wardevil has yet to be shown on real hardware , the last we saw it , was e3 2005.

Would just like to say that yes, WarDevil was shown at E3 this year, I saw it, and it was real time, you could control the camera during the demo at certain points if I remember correctly.

I'm not sure if it said it was running at 1080p, but I do know one of Digi-guys main selling points is that their game engine runs at 1080p all the time. It had the best image quality on display, along with titles like WarHawk and Resistance.

EDIT: One more thing. I have a strong feeling WarDevil will be publsihed by Sony. In fact, I'm willing to bet on it based on things I've heard from poking around.

RavenFox

07-07-2006, 04:06 PM

RSX OWNS ALL. HOLY SHIAT!:thumbl:

frosty

07-07-2006, 04:13 PM

Not so sure Sony is doing it. Here it is straight from the source.

Hi Dustin

Many thanks for the mail - and our apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

At the moment, we are still restricted by a number of NDA's as we move WarDevil Enigma to it's next (more public stage).

Ongoing business means, until we can announce our official Publisher, we're operating under an embargo. This is why we only had a small update on the www.wardevil.com website recently (to reflect the WarDevil Enigma content shown at E3 on Sony's PS3 stand).

Once final negotiations are completed on the business side (or we're given permission to release info early), we'll be happy to start providing materials :)

Regards

WarDevil Web Team
Digi-Guys

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 04:16 PM

RavenFox,

Thanks for the kind words and the Rep man! I appreciate it very much.

If you would do so, please go to the Ninja Theory thread at the following link and ask them if they can confirm the RSX is a GPU that contains only *one* singular core. It seems to me this is something that they should be able to set strait if the RSX really is a single core GPU. Personally, I would LOVE to know ONE WAY OR THE OTHER if the RSX is multicore or not. It would at least give us a new path to follow either way!

Come on guys, lets work together here!

frosty

07-07-2006, 04:19 PM

sorry MILR, they aren't going to lose their jobs to break NDA and tell us anything about the architecture. Even telling us the number of cores is going too far.

Jubal

07-07-2006, 04:24 PM

Not so sure Sony is doing it. Here it is straight from the source.

That's one of the reasons I feel Sony's looking into publishing them.

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 04:25 PM

Frosty,

Sony already told us it utilized one core at E3 of 2005 (even though I think they may or may not be holding back additional information). How is CONFIRMING something Sony has already said a violation of an NDA? You see, I'm not asking for any information that Sony has not already told us. If the RSX has one core (if it's still the same GPU mentioned at E3 of 2005) it would not hurt for them to say it only utilizes one core.

Do you see where I am going with this? If the RSX has only one core they could confirm that it has only one core by doing NOTHING MORE than saying,

"What do you think? Didn't you see those specs at E3 of 2005."

That would be enough confirmation for me that it's a single core design and just like *all* the other developers they would simply be re-hasing Sony's party line.

However if they said *nothing* at all or *no comment* we might have an indication it could be something more.

I think we should all ask. I don't think it is a violation of an NDA to officially say what Sony has already officially said.

EDIT: I can't find it on the War Devil site anymore, but at one point it mentioned that their engine was maximizing the use of the Cell's SPEs. It didn't go into a whole lot of detail, but basically stressed that was one way they were making such great graphics. I can't find that anymore.

PhYmon

07-07-2006, 04:27 PM

Yeah this thread is going no where.. I thought that the Ninja Theory actually answered some question; why if we waited so long, cant we wait alittle more?, JVD why u always try to prove that everybody here is wrong and u are right..

frosty

07-07-2006, 04:29 PM

well, milr, think about this. Sony doesn't need to make it multi-core, since as you mentioned, SPE's can act as secondary cores.

and it honestly doesn't matter. http://www.baysidevideoproductions.com/RSX.wmv speaks for itself.

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 04:42 PM

Umm... it does matter. That trailer is very good. I will give you that. Actually, except for the main character it looks fantastic. But I still want the specs of the RSX.

By the way, the PS3 does need all the power it can get. Simply put, games are no where near maxed out in terms of graphics. Using the Cell's SPE's to aid in graphics is great, but at the same time you don't want to do too much (as Cpiasminc and others have pointed out) and take away the Cell's ability to process animation, physics, particles, sound, regular game code, and everything else. It would be nice to know that the *final* RSX has a little something extra so that it's relative "strength" will match that of the Cell processor. You see, the Cell is awsome, period. That's a given. But if the RSX is just a 7800 with minor modifications then it's going to be a good GPU, but it's nothing outrageously exciting or cutting edge.

From what I have gathered together from all my hunting the RSX is indeed something special. No one knows *exactly* what makes it so special (in it's final revision according to sources) but it would be nice to know it has that extra special SOMETHING that will mean it's very powerful on it's own without having to lean on the Cell *all* the time to produce cutting edge graphics.

I don't think there is anything wrong with us asking Ninja Theory questions, because obviously the don't HAVE to say anything. But when it comes to multicore or not they have an easy way to answer if the RSX is just a single cored machine. All they have to say is, "Didn't you see the specs at E3 of 2005. They give you the answer strait from Sony. You don't need us to say anyting." By just saying that they would confirm the RSX is a single core device and put an end to a TREMENDOUS ammount of speculation about a multicore RSX.

Seriously, I want to eliminate the multicore possibility all together if possible. However, right now I still think there is a chance it could be valid, but if it's not then many people all across the net are wasting a lot of time and energy following that route.

We have a chance now to collectively ask Ninja Theory (in a way that will not be breaking their NDA) to help us narrow down the specifications of the RSX.

Truthfully, if they confirm it's a single core GPU that will aid us TREMENDOUSLY by ruling out a whole slew of possibilities.

Everyone, if you will please go to this thread and ASK them if the RSX is a single core GPU.

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3562&posted=1#post3562

They can answer WITHOUT breaking their NDA by just speaking Sony's party line. I want this settled. I hope you do too!

By the way, thanks Frosty for that video! It's great.

PhYmon

07-07-2006, 04:50 PM

Well ND told me once that RSX is going to be multicore.. I believe what he said I dont think he is going to provide any bad info or news cuz of his background..

cliffbo

07-07-2006, 04:51 PM

it says my IP has been banned?! i haven't been there before! whats wrong, has anyone had the same problem?

frosty

07-07-2006, 04:53 PM

it was just him speculating, though an educated guess. XBD, where are ye?

RavenFox

07-07-2006, 04:53 PM

it says my IP has been banned?! i haven't been there before! whats wrong, has anyone had the same problem?
Ninja Theorys Forum?

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 04:54 PM

Alright... I think I remember that the way their forum is setup when they ban someone they can potentially accidentally ban others with a similiar IP address. Apparently, they decided not to ban an individual simply because another individual had a good record and would have been banned too. I doubt you are *really* banned, but someone with a similiar IP address was banned.

Darn it Cliffbo! I wish you could go there!

If you want to post a message please PM it to me and I will post it on your behalf!

EDIT: No, Nerve Damage is not just speculating. The last time I talked with him he had specific sources which he was unable to disclose at the time because he was trying to find confirmation. However, now I have not seen him for over a week when he said he was going to be back in a day or so. I really would love to hear how he is doing. Does anyone have his e-mail address? It would be kind of us to at least send him a note saying we hope he is well.

cliffbo

07-07-2006, 05:06 PM

MILR respect to you fella. :)

frosty

07-07-2006, 05:15 PM

yeah, we miss ye nerve dmg!

altares

07-07-2006, 05:54 PM

we already know that the RSX has 128bit memory bus, so, as a 7900 based design, it is limited, and if we add another core, dont you think it will slow down a lot, because of the lack of bandwidth?

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 05:57 PM

That's one of the big issues right now. The lack of bandwidth in the PS3 and the way the system is set up (from what we know so far) will cause a lot of latency and other performance problems. One question about the RSX is exactly how it has been optimized to work efficently in a console with less than optimal bandwidth, potentially high latency, and other performance concerns. Many of us are frustrated with all the speculation and just want answers.

altares

07-07-2006, 06:02 PM

Sorry about my poor english... T.T
I'd personally rather prefere it will have some features of the G80 (geometry shaders), it is way more useful than another core (dont you forget the bandwidth limitations)!!!

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 06:25 PM

Personally, I don't think we really know that much about the *final* RSX. I seriously doubt it will be based on the G80 but I agree that would have been a very nice surprise. Truthfully, I expect it to be based around the 7800/7900 but additionally have several features that both enhance it's performance and also help it work optimally inside of the PS3 with the console's other components.

A *dream* (which is not that likely) would be for Sony to go ahead and just boost the bus between the RSX and GDDR3 RAM and the bus between the RSX and Cell processor to 256bits to increase the bandwidth substantially. I don't think this is likely, but I hate ruling out anything completely.

Seriously, if you are interested in the specs of the RSX please go to the thread on the Ninja Theory board and ask them a question. They probably won't be able to give much information, but at least it will show them that even more people are interested.

Additionally, the traffic helps build up their forums which of course could make their site more popular and therefore help spread the word about Heavenly Sword.

frosty

07-07-2006, 06:57 PM

2 128 bit busses...

version

07-07-2006, 07:03 PM

128 bit bus per quad

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 07:14 PM

Version,

Unless you want to back up your statements with at least some articulated speculation I have a request for you. Please just don't throw around wild specifications like that. I have no problem with you speculating about anything even if it is unlikely, but I just don't like a few mysterious words with nothing added to explain them.

I am not mad, but your posts really bug me sometimes. I WANT you to be a part of this forum, but I just don't understand why you cannot actually make articulated posts instead of short phrases.

Anyway, back to the point.

I encourage everyone to go to the thread at Ninja Theory and post a comment on this thread asking for them if the RSX is a single cored GPU. This is a question that they can answer without breaking their NDA and would clear up many issues.

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250&page=6

Thanks for your assistance.

Heinrich4

07-07-2006, 08:05 PM

So can be true the rumour (early november) of psm talk RSX is dual Core with 52 shader pipes(470MHz)?

Applefiend

07-07-2006, 08:10 PM

PSM tend to print chinese whispers in their mag to shift units. People are hungry for PS3 info.... PSM ain't got no demo disk, gotta do something...

makeitlookreal

07-07-2006, 08:18 PM

I think the duel core possibility is still on the table. I don't see why it would be *impossible* for Sony to pull that off and I refuse to 100% rule it out.

The one thing I am pretty certain of is that the RSX is going to have some pretty significant features we don't yet know about. What these are is unknown at this time, but the first step in finding out is narrowing down the search. That is why I am so interested in having someone in the know state for a fact if the RSX is a single core GPU in it's *final* version. If we can get some confirmation about this then we can disgard a LOT of theories that may not be very likely, but can't be dismissed.

I really hope the folks at Ninja Theory will answer the question I have posted about the RSX. It would not violate their NDA to answer it if the RSX is indeed a single core unit because all they would have to do is repeat exactly what Sony said at E3 of 2005 and tell us that is what we should be going by. However, if the RSX is multicore then they can just say no comment or nothing at all.

We really need to narrow this down, but the problem the FACTS about the RSX are in such low supply we can be certain of very little.

Heinrich4

07-07-2006, 08:44 PM

I have the impression if the developers not to answer this simple question we can have something beyond “smoke" or "rumour” of dual core RSX gpu.

(maybe have fire)

Heinrich4

07-07-2006, 09:16 PM

Sometime ago i send a message to person supposedly it works with sdk ps3 and i received this quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich4 08-May-2006, 13:26
Hi ,

I See your posts... and most impressive in my opinion is information about sdk ps3 with RSX at lower clock ->shrek like cabinet ... this sdk with RSX is dual core* Geforce 7800GT (20 pixel shader + 6 vertex shader each) in one die?

* 475 MHz clock with 52 pixel (40 ps and 12vs) pipes + EIB with SME/SPU like?

Since now thanx for any information.

=> Hi,
Sorry for the late answer but I saw the message right now.
Nobody knows what there is inside the RSX.

gljvd

07-07-2006, 09:33 PM

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 09:35 PM

I will say that at this point in time due to the markets that hte rsx will display the better graphics , however I believe the top of the line nvidia gpu is capable of displaying better graphics .

The problem is that in 6 months there will be a new top of the line nvidia gpu.

However feature for feature , spec for spec , the g7x top of the line will be a better chip than the rsx .
Agreed

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 09:38 PM

bilbobob007

07-07-2006, 09:39 PM

No ? have you played it ?

Anyway , once again a poster who doesn't read what is writen . I have only pointed out that this is a typical pr statement .

If you were selling Cake , would u say "Hey but this cake , its average !" ? How about "Hey buy this cake , its not that good !"?

No of course not , you'd say " Buy this cake that tastes awsome!"

So by the token of that statement we can tell which side of the fence your on.

gljvd

07-07-2006, 09:42 PM

well wounding, I saw not a single frame dropped during the demo. I'll encode a DVD quality version of that I filmed and post it here for you to judge for yourself. The funniest part was JVD tried to say WarDevil hasn't been seen since E3 05' when I have video proof that says otherwise. LOL

Your right , it has been seen , oh wells , still you have plenty of other mistakes in there.

Oh and ign doesn't seem to impressed , seems like alot of stuff was missing from the trailer

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/707/707034p1.html

We were a little disappointed in the gun-flash lighting, as just a simple glow lit up the character's face instead of the dynamic and high-contrast images usually seen with next-gen across normal mapped faces

general, a lot of the post-effects in the awesome WarDevil trailer was not in this temporary demo.

Will 1080p make as much difference as this demo leads on? Hard to say -- the mix of PS3 games on the floor were skittish in quality (some looked extraordinary, others good but not unbeatable against Microsoft's equally-tasty 360 system), and we were not able to see WarDevil in real-time in any other resolution besides 1080p

Seems like ign doesn't agree with you on how great the game looks .

yoshaw

07-07-2006, 10:01 PM

Your E3 badge Mr.Voice of Reason!

Where is the photo we asked you to take of it?

Sephiroth_VII

07-07-2006, 10:22 PM

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 10:25 PM

JVD, I'll let you know that most of us have lost faith in IGN by now. They've had so many crap articles. Not to mention that I'll never forgive them for giving KH2 a 7.6/10, when the press average was 9.0!!

Face it, IGN is biased towards Microsoft.
Really I dont feel that way.

I dont agree with many of their articles and/or reviews but I dont feel as if they are biased.

I hear the same thing about a number of site/mags such as EGM is pro Sony as is G4TV and Gamefaqs is pro Nin.. I think for the most part its all nonsense, if anything I remember IGN criticizing the hell out of MS this time last year all the way through their launch.

As with any site on the net or even the majority of gaming mags available I pick and choose what I wish to believe based off of other similar opinions or my own biases (as we all do LOL).

Sephiroth_VII

07-07-2006, 10:30 PM

Well, most of the IGN articles that I've read seems biased, IMO. You're, of course, entitled to have your own opinion. And when you read text, it really is a matter of opinion to find out wether an article might be biased, or even sarcastic.

EDIT: Since I don't regularily browse IGN, I can't comment on their covering of the 360's launch.

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 10:33 PM

Well, most of the IGN articles that I've read seems biased, IMO. You're, of course, entitled to have your own opinion. And when you read text, it really is a matter of opinion to ofind out wether an article might be biased, or even sarcastic.

EDIT: Since I don't regularily browse IGN, I can't comment on their covering of the 360's launch.
Yeah thats pretty much what Im saying.

Agreed

Angeljuice

07-07-2006, 10:37 PM

"Will 1080p make as much difference as this demo leads on? Hard to say -- the mix of PS3 games on the floor were skittish in quality (some looked extraordinary, others good but not unbeatable against Microsoft's equally-tasty 360 system)," and we were not able to see WarDevil in real-time in any other resolution besides 1080p

^^From gljvd's own post^^

So in other words, some 1st gen PS3 games looked far better than 360 2nd gen games, others were on a par.

See gljvd does post pro PS3 stuff here :)

EDIT: Have a bone

Sephiroth_VII

07-07-2006, 10:37 PM

Glad we agree:hugegrin:

EDIT: Nah, he just posted something from IGN, Angeljuice. He didn't write it, and probably didn't ntice that IGN were indirectly saying that some of the PS3 games looked better than the 360's.

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 10:38 PM

Glad we agree:hugegrin:
Well better yet glad we agree to disagree on the issue. :angel:

Sephiroth_VII

07-07-2006, 10:43 PM

Lol, yeah!

Say, what happened to glJVD? He seems to have vanished shortly before page 5. Off to take a pic of his E3 badge?

woundingchaney

07-07-2006, 10:44 PM

Lol, yeah!

Say, what happened to glJVD? He seems to have vanished shortly before page 5. Off to take a pic of his E3 badge?
:stirpot:

Smokey

07-07-2006, 10:46 PM

:stirpot:
lol

yoshaw

07-07-2006, 11:02 PM

Lol, yeah!

Say, what happened to glJVD? He seems to have vanished shortly before page 5. Off to take a pic of his E3 badge?

I'm sure he's read it. He can't pretend he didn't read the text(due to people on his ignore list or whatever). As a lot of other members, including frosty, have since asked him about showing his E3 badge. No show so far it seems!

Maybe he's thinking if he keeps his head in the sand and ignore it, the storm would be over in no time. :look:

Like, we're gonna let that happen. lol

Pistolero

07-08-2006, 12:22 AM

Guys, there is no need to turn this interesting forum of yours into some bashing carrefour...
Good night and Good luck !

VG Aficionado

07-08-2006, 12:43 AM

Guys, there is no need to turn this interesting forum of yours into some bashing carrefour...
Good night and Good luck !I wish jvd understood that, stopped posting BS and never returned.

woundingchaney

07-08-2006, 12:46 AM

Such unbridled hatred for JVD

Run JVD Run to safety, while I distract the masses

:matrix:

LOL

Coded-Dude

07-08-2006, 12:51 AM

the only person I ever hated was........Tael (not in general, jsut for is stupid threads) :rant:

xbdestroya

07-08-2006, 01:13 AM

People, stay on topic.

And if you are allowed to keep creating RSX investigation threads MILR, Version is allowed to keep being Version. Keep 'em coming Version! :smoke:

woundingchaney

07-08-2006, 01:18 AM

Ummmm who the hell is Version, is he even in this thread???????

Madness I say Madness

Coded-Dude

07-08-2006, 01:19 AM

http://media.damnfunnypictures.com/dfp/fg_07.gif
twice in one day

xbdestroya

07-08-2006, 01:20 AM

Ummmm who the hell is Version, is he even in this thread???????

Who's Version??? You can't be serious. Post #69 is classic Version (in a good way!) :smoke:

PS - Dude, you gotta refrain from the gif posts; that's too GAF-like for this place.

woundingchaney

07-08-2006, 01:22 AM

Who's Version??? You can't be serious. Post #69 is classic Version (in a good way!) :smoke:
Man with no pic or anything I completely missed his post.

128 bit bus per quad, man thats just revolutionary.

Madness I say Madness

:djparty:

makeitlookreal

07-08-2006, 01:29 AM

Everyone,

Lets get back on topic. I was partially at fault for getting off topic too. So I am also blaming myself.

I think it is important that everyone viewing this thread go to the Ninja Theory board and ask for more information about the RSX and especially if it contains multiple cores or not. If the RSX is a single core device confirming the fact should not be a violation of their NDA because officially that is what Sony has said so far! By having them confirm it's a single cored GPU then we could disgard a lot of possibilities and narrow down what the true specifications of the RSX.

Additionally, they may just throw us another bone of information as well!

Look, their willing at least to talk to us even if it is in vague terms. They know about the RSX and we don't. If we want to learn more about the RSX we need to ask THEM and not *only* talk amongst ourselves.

Here is the link to the thread on the Ninja Theory board.

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250&page=6

Lets work together and get even more information about the RSX!

woundingchaney

07-08-2006, 01:31 AM

I refuse to request information that could potentially cost an individual their job.

I admire your resolve MILR but this is unnecessary and bordering on Madness I say Madness!!!!!

LOL I feel giddy. :)

venomv

07-08-2006, 01:33 AM

Yeah, version's out there, but I like his posts, because they seem to mean nothing, but at times I wonder if he really knows something crazy and is trying to point us in the right direction.

xbdestroya

07-08-2006, 02:02 AM

They're not going to give up any information that's NDA'd... which is just about everything we don't already know. This I can pretty much guarantee.

makeitlookreal

07-08-2006, 02:09 AM

XBD,

You want all the talk about the multicore RSX to end once and for all?

Ninja Theory could make that happen without breaking their NDA. It's really *very* simple.

Example.

Person: Ninja Theory could you please tell us if the RSX is a single core processor?

Ninja Theory: Didn't you see Sony's specifications at E3 of 2005? That's your answer.

BOOOOOOMMMMM

Sony's RSX is single core and no NDA's broken.

If the RSX is a single core and they simply repeat exactly what Sony has already said there is NO NDA BROKEN and a BIG rumor put to rest.

I don't see how you can be opposed to this XBD. Personally, if the multicore rumor is not reality then I want it eliminated immediate because it is a distraction from finding out the full truth about the RSX.

woundingchaney

07-08-2006, 02:10 AM

Nameless

07-08-2006, 02:11 AM

MILR you are a pitbull, you just refuse to let this RSX bone go...

Keep up the good work, I hope you break the news first on the forums, good luck. Peace

makeitlookreal

07-08-2006, 02:18 AM

Nameless,

You are right. I can't let this go. And especially since I have figured out a way for Ninja Theory (or any other developer with the final RSX who would actually know it's final specs) to put a major rumor to rest once and for all without breaking their NDA in anyway whatsoever.

Wounding,

I have read enough, talked with enough people, and put enough clues together for me to believe there *may* be some multicore aspect to the RSX. There is just enough information that I can't rule it out yet, but I would love for a developer to settle the issue once and for all. I have also been told things in confidence by a few people that make me believe the RSX could be multicore.

Nerve Damage is *one* of these individuals and he was doing some research and was supposed to report back here in a few days, but he has been gone for over a week it seems. It seems he may have had some new information he was trying to confirm.

I personally just feel that Sony needs to give the RSX *something* to give it more kick than a 7800 overclocked a little. That could be the multicore feature. If it is NOT then I want that possibility ELIMINATED.

Nameless

07-08-2006, 02:28 AM

I find it odd that Nerve Damage was suppose to deliver vital information regarding the RSX and has gone missing... I think it's a conspiracy and Sony could be a potential suspect.

What is the time frame before a person is legally announced missing...

MILR you can head up the investigation!
(I kid, I kid)

xbdestroya

07-08-2006, 02:32 AM

Don't encourage him Nameless, because MILR is on that exact path of thought! ;)

Anyway well although this whole info hunt is not my scene, I ill say if you ask the Ninja Theory devs *exactly* like you just did in that example above MILR, you may just get a non-confirmation confirmation - which would of course be good. So, I do wish you luck.

woundingchaney

07-08-2006, 02:33 AM

Man this shit is sooooo much better than network television.

:grouphug:

I cant believe I wasted my teens and early twentys getting high and geeked, sleeping with women, and causing anarchy when I could have been here.

This has got to be one of the most entertaining forums I have ever been to, I tell you no lies.

cpiasminc

07-08-2006, 04:50 AM

128 bit bus per quad, man thats just revolutionary.
Madness I say Madness
Under the assumption of 8 ROPs (and assuming that the ROPs can write to render targets in XDR), Frosty's preceding post of "2 128-bit busses" and MILR's further preceding post with the ideal of a 256-bit bus on each end would have worked out the same, though in frosty's case, the same duplicated on the FlexIO side wasn't included, but possibly implied. Though FlexIO is a bit of a different ball of wax in that it's not necessarily super wide like a GDDR bus, but the effective clock speed is higher, so the net bandwidth is high (i.e., the 20 GB/sec and 15 GB/sec each way over FlexIO come from 32 and 24 bit wide busses IIRC -- technically 4 and 3 lanes of 8-bits each).

128-bit bus per quad also wouldn't be that insane per se. 4 pixels at 32 bpp is 128 bits after all -- even more if you're in a Z-only pass with no color write. Being able to commit that many writes per cycle is pretty good, but you'll only get the best benefit out of it if the RAM speed is semi-synchronous with the GPU.

frosty

07-08-2006, 07:22 AM

Wow, it's nice to hear the wet blanket not putting this fire out per se... maybe we're on to something, considering he would be the one "in the know".

And the "2 128 bit busses" I referred to was quoted from a dev that was answering a question about the limitations of working with only 1 128 bit bus. He said "remember, there are 2 128 bit busses available"

makeitlookreal

07-08-2006, 10:14 AM

XBD,

I have asked them the question at this thread.

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3591&posted=1#post3591

Perhaps we will get an answer that will put to rest the theories about a multicore GPU. If it is a single cored GPU then there is no reason they cannot just confirm Sony's specifications that were released at 2005. A simple confirmation of what Sony has already released cannot be considered a violation of their NDA. I just can't imagine how they could NOT answer this question. It is VERY simple and does NOT violate their NDA. Actually, if the RSX is a single cored GPU the question will probably be so laughable they should have no problem answering at all within the bounds of their NDA.

If the RSX is not a single core GPU then by refusing to comment or by saying "no comment" they could be giving us an answer WITHOUT breaking their NDA.

Ninja Theory is now in a position to do all of us a great service by answering a highly debated question without in anyway whatsoever violating their NDA.

lshian

07-08-2006, 10:43 AM

Ninja Theory could make that happen without breaking their NDA. It's really *very* simple.

Example.

Person: Ninja Theory could you please tell us if the RSX is a single core processor?

Ninja Theory: Didn't you see Sony's specifications at E3 of 2005? That's your answer.

BOOOOOOMMMMM

Lol Ninja Theory will never going to answer you. Because they know it not single core anymore. You already got ur answer.

If RSX is single core, he would have said see the specs that Sony released. Where else he is not answering, it means it might be 2 cores or 4 cores or whatever cores which NDA doesn't allow him to do so.

So stop bothering Ninja Theory, RSX must have something up in the sleeve.

woundingchaney

07-08-2006, 10:48 AM

Lol Ninja Theory will never going to answer you. Because they know it not single core anymore. You already got ur answer.

If RSX is single core, he would have said see the specs that Sony released. Where else he is not answering, it means it might be 2 cores or 4 cores or whatever cores which NDA doesn't allow him to do so.

So stop bothering Ninja Theory, RSX must have something up in the sleeve.
You just had to do that didnt you.
:rocket: LOL

makeitlookreal

07-08-2006, 10:56 AM

lshian

I don't know if the RSX is single core or multicore. There is just no way to know for a fact. By the way, the way my question is set-up on that thread there is no way that Ninja Theory could be violating their NDA. Also, I am NOT asking for any specific information.

If they simply confirm that the RSX utilizes one core then all they have to do is refer us to the 2005 E3 specifications. No NDA violation there.

If they want to tell us that the RSX is something more than an ordinary single core processor then all they have to say is no comment.

Or maybe they can say one of the above with a tiny tad of additional information without breaking their NDA.

However, I think we should be able to get some kind of answer without them breaking ANY NDA's!

It can't be a violation of an NDA to say "no comment" and it can't be a violation to refer someone to something Sony has already said!

Either way we will know for certain if the RSX is only a regular single core GPU or if it is something more. We won't get any details at all (that would be breaking their NDA) but we would at least get some sort of direction to follow. Currently, everything is up in the air!

By the way, I'm not picking on Ninja Theory. I'm just offering them the opportunity to very quickly and simply give us a nugget of informaiton without in anyway violating their NDA. They have already expressed that they WISH they could say more in the past, but this way they can say something in a way with no risk of violating their NDA.

There is no way on this planet or elsewhere that "No comment" or "check out the E3 2005 specifications" can be violating an NDA. Period.

I also think there is something special about the RSX, but by asking Ninja Theory we can at least have a direction to follow.

Smokey

07-08-2006, 11:00 AM

MILR you gotta go out man :) find somthing else with dual headlights lol

liver_kick

07-08-2006, 11:02 AM

If the RSX is not a single core GPU then by refusing to comment or by saying "no comment" they could be giving us an answer WITHOUT breaking their NDA.

Well, I think thats the likely response you're going to get (if not outright ignored), simply because they may not want to encourage placating this line of questioning on their own forum. I'd implore you not to look too much into something a developer vaguely comments on (or doesn't comment on) beyond its face value.

Ninja Theory is now in a position to do all of us a great service by answering a highly debated question without in anyway whatsoever violating their NDA.

Not being a dick here, but there isnt much debate going on at all. The occam's razor consensus has long been a G70 based core @ 550mhz tweaked for the FlexIO bus, along with various low level optimizations and enhancements.

woundingchaney

07-08-2006, 11:10 AM

Not being a dick here, but there isnt much debate going on at all. The occam's razor consensus has long been a G70 based core @ 550mhz tweaked for the FlexIO bus, along with various low level optimizations and enhancements.

Preach it from the mountain Liver :clap:

makeitlookreal

07-08-2006, 11:18 AM

Hey, if the RSX is SO OBVIOUSLY a single cored GPU then it cirtainly can't be a violation of their NDA to admit to that.

Smokey

07-08-2006, 11:20 AM

NDAs milr dont matter how good or sucky it is theres NDAs :)

woundingchaney

07-08-2006, 11:22 AM

Hey, if the RSX is SO OBVIOUSLY a single cored GPU then it cirtainly can't be a violation of their NDA to admit to that.
Perhaps not but you do realize that you are asking people to walk a fine line and potentially put their jobs at stake to verify and validate your whims. Sony isnt known for their NDA flexibility afterall.

I understand you take this very seriously, but something that seems so simple to us does have the potential to be catastrophic for others.

Every single piece of information that we have seen about the RSX suggest what has been discussed in this thread (not the dual core 7950 hybrid portions LOL).

liver_kick

07-08-2006, 11:37 AM

Hey, if the RSX is SO OBVIOUSLY a single cored GPU then it cirtainly can't be a violation of their NDA to admit to that.

Like I said, they may simply be adverse to encouraging this line of questioning on their own forum where they're culpable, regardless if it breaks NDAs or not. The very fact that they are under NDA means its a hassle they'll be rather inclined to avoid altogether.

Look, Im just trying to save you some dissapointment if they just blow you off. ;)

Bottom line, people need to stop conflating and comparing the performance and characteristics of the G70 architecture within an open platform like the PC, to the silicon specifically integrated into the closed system that is the PS3. Two completely different environments that will have two completely different outputs over the long haul. RSX is not underpowered nor a bottleneck. Its a powerful, more than complimentary state of the art GPU that top flight developers are going to squeeze every inch out of over the next 5+ years. Period.

makeitlookreal

07-08-2006, 12:07 PM

Basically, this question is almost just as simple as asking if the Cell processor really has multiple SPEs. That is according to what Sony has officially told us pretty obvious. Asking if the RSX is a single cored GPU is also a pretty *basic* question. I don't see how it is walking a fine line at all. Everything Sony has *officially* said indicates the RSX is indeed a single core processor. So I don't see the NDA difference between asking if the Cell processor has multiple SPE's and this question.

I don't see how this is a fine line at all. I really, really don't. If everything Sony has told is the *whole* truth then it's a pretty simple question to answer. It's actually a RIDICULOUSLY EASY question to answer if Sony has been telling us the truth and not hiding some hidden multicore feature.

If the RSX is indeed a multicore processor then Ninja Theory does not have to say anything at all or just say no comment.

For goodness sakes, what MARCO told us about the RSX in his interview was 10X the information I am requesting!!!

He gave some details about the workings of the RSX in relation to HDR, bandwidth, and so fourth. I'm not asking for any details except a confirmation that what Sony has told us so far about the Cell being *one* core is indeed the truth.

This is like the easiest PS3 question of all time and I don't see the big deal about it.

Seriously, this question I have posted could end a LOT of speculation once and for all. It would help us get past the notion of any multicore function.

I just don't see how anyone could think this is possibly a violation of their NDA.

EDIT: According to CPIASMINC and others the RSX does indeed have several bottlenecks if it is nothing different than an ordinary GPU. It would still perform well but not anywhere near optimally. It's going to be tremendously bandwidth limited, in the current setup the Cell will really not be able to utilize a fraction of it's bandwidth to the RSX, and the RSX will have significant latency issues reading the XDR.

Now, I think Sony has solved all these problems. However, eliminating the multicore speculation will help us narrow down the solutions.

By the way, since we don't have PS3's to actually play games on and of course new screenshots and videos are few and far between except at big major events all we can do is explore the hardware of the PS3.

liver_kick

07-08-2006, 02:20 PM

EDIT: According to CPIASMINC and others the RSX does indeed have several bottlenecks if it is nothing different than an ordinary GPU.

Oy, I meant "bottleneck" in the general sense that RSX isnt holding back the system at large. I dont think many developers of sane mind consider PS3 unbalanced with a 550mhz G70 based GPU as its graphics workhorse.

Bandwith is going to always be at a premium. Im sure they've made low level optimizations (ala cache) to improve this as much as they can given the time frame and architecture. But the bottom line is EVERY configuration and spec imageinable is going to have its bottleneck and limitation somewhere. You'll never see the perfect system. There's always going to be compromises when manufacturing these mass market machines and selling them initially at a loss. To consider possibilities otherwise is an exercise in redundancy.

What is an "ordinary GPU"?

makeitlookreal

07-08-2006, 02:37 PM

Liverkick,

When I mean a normal GPU I mean the PC part that the RSX is based on. I have read developers say that the 7800/7900 in PC's are very limited in performance due to bandwidth restraints even with a 256bit bus to their VRAM. They perform well enough of course, but the lack of bandwidth really hurts them. The RSX only has around or a little more than half of that bandwidth and if it's the same basic part (without some kind of extra bandwidth we don't know about or a *whole* lot of cache or a combination of other features we don't know about) this part is going to be even MORE limited in performance.

I don't think it was CPI, but I even read an expert or developer say that if the RSX is simply a normal 7800 that in the PC it would likely lose half of it's performance. Is this the truth? I don't know, but I remember reading it and the person sure knew a lot more about these matters than myself.

Additionally, some might say that the FlexIO between the Cell and RSX would make up for this lack of bandwidth, but that's not really the case.

1) The RSX needs that bandwidth for it's very own VRAM. Even if it was being fed plenty of data from the Cell or XDR RAM if it doesn't have fast access to it's own RAM there is going to be a big hit in performance.

2) The RSX will suffer from a lot of latency and other issues while reading from the XDR. This will make the second pool of 256MB of RAM significantly less useful than it's own RAM.

3) The Cell can do a lot for the RSX, but even by supplying vertex data, texture data, and other stuff as well only a small portion of the FlexIO's extra bandwidth will come into play at most times. Apparently, what developers have said is that the benefit of the FlexIO between the Cell and RSX is actually the fact it supports high bursts of data. That will be important, but the truth of the matter is that most of the time it will be significantly under used at least according to the developers whom I've read commenting on the issue.

--

Once again, I don't think Sony would put such an ordinary RSX (no really significant changes from the 7800/7900) into the PS3. It would be really buggy and cause a lot of performance hits. Additionally, it would not be able to perform as well as even an ordinary 7800 in a PC much less an over clocked one. I hate to use this number, because I dont know how true it is, but one developer said half of the GPU's power could go out the window if it becomes bandwidth starved.

I think these issues have been solved because the RSX is really a true custom built GPU and not just a barely modified 7800/7900. It could have some sort of multicore feature (duel processors or sub-processors) to help increase it's performance, could utilize a LOT of cache, or could have some other form of memory built in. I don't really know. But to find out we at least need to narrow down the possibilities and I really hope that Ninja Theory will help us by ruling out the multicore possibility.

lshian

07-08-2006, 03:12 PM

If Ninja Theory would say 'no comment' is hinting you the RSX specs, and it against NDA. It is just like asking them indirectly and they answering you indirectly.

Chrome

07-08-2006, 03:42 PM

hm, questions questions. Team Soho's work shows what potential exists in the RSX, and all that was realtime also.

agentorange

07-08-2006, 04:28 PM

no the game of Soho eight days is all CGi and its obvious when you look at it since it has all the elements of a CGI. Also G4 confirmed its CGI.

Chrome

07-08-2006, 04:42 PM

no the game of Soho eight days is all CGi and its obvious when you look at it since it has all the elements of a CGI. Also G4 confirmed its CGI.

LOL wrong game agentorange try again.

oh by the way I'm very informed ;)

frosty

07-08-2006, 05:24 PM

Under the assumption of 8 ROPs (and assuming that the ROPs can write to render targets in XDR), Frosty's preceding post of "2 128-bit busses" and MILR's further preceding post with the ideal of a 256-bit bus on each end would have worked out the same, though in frosty's case, the same duplicated on the FlexIO side wasn't included, but possibly implied. Though FlexIO is a bit of a different ball of wax in that it's not necessarily super wide like a GDDR bus, but the effective clock speed is higher, so the net bandwidth is high (i.e., the 20 GB/sec and 15 GB/sec each way over FlexIO come from 32 and 24 bit wide busses IIRC -- technically 4 and 3 lanes of 8-bits each).

128-bit bus per quad also wouldn't be that insane per se. 4 pixels at 32 bpp is 128 bits after all -- even more if you're in a Z-only pass with no color write. Being able to commit that many writes per cycle is pretty good, but you'll only get the best benefit out of it if the RAM speed is semi-synchronous with the GPU.

Q13. Are the specifications and design final ?
A13. Very close to final.

PSINext: As previously discussed, beyond it's high quality one of the primary reasons for the use of NAO32 is that it saves bandwidth in a bandwidth-hungry environment. In the future do you feel RSX will be at a disadvantage to Xenos when it comes to framebuffer effects due to the 128-bit bus and lack of eDRAM?

Marco: Not at all; in fact for many framebuffer effects I believe RSX will have an edge over Xenos. Don't want to go into details, but let me just point out that RSX is connected to two seperate buses, not just one.

Read those lines carefully. RSX will benefit a lot more from a bandwidth boost than it will from another core. If it has another core, it has to lose half it's bandwidth to the thing to keep it fed. you know Sony isn't going to throw both another core and a memory/bus upgrade into a $600 box. They're having enough trouble keeping the price in check as it is. The most beneficial thing that could be happening is a memory clock speed increase, or maybe some type of bus upgrade, though they have many options available to them now as it is.
__________________

cpiasminc

07-08-2006, 06:33 PM

Wow, it's nice to hear the wet blanket not putting this fire out per se... maybe we're on to something, considering he would be the one "in the know".
Ummm... actually, I just figured it wounding's was an "if only" kind of post, so I continued down that path. I'm not saying that it's necessarily true.

And the "2 128 bit busses" I referred to was quoted from a dev that was answering a question about the limitations of working with only 1 128 bit bus. He said "remember, there are 2 128 bit busses available"
Hmmm... he's probably referring to the access across memory pools. Though FlexIO/XDR aren't 128-bit busses -- they're just that fast.

Hey, if the RSX is SO OBVIOUSLY a single cored GPU then it cirtainly can't be a violation of their NDA to admit to that.
Sure it is, because everything the public hears before the product is actually out is usually reported to devs as being "tentative goals." And anything that's not final falls under the NDAs.

but I even read an expert or developer say that if the RSX is simply a normal 7800 that in the PC it would likely lose half of it's performance.
Sounds about right.

1) The RSX needs that bandwidth for it's very own VRAM. Even if it was being fed plenty of data from the Cell or XDR RAM if it doesn't have fast access to it's own RAM there is going to be a big hit in performance.
Sure... especially with large render targets and high levels of AA. That's the most demanding part of it in the end, and though it might be theoretically possible to point some render targets into the XDR pool, that's not possible with everything.

2) The RSX will suffer from a lot of latency and other issues while reading from the XDR. This will make the second pool of 256MB of RAM significantly less useful than it's own RAM.
True, but compared to putting it on PCI-E linked to a slot DDR1/2 memory pool, it's night and day (and I mean both bandwidth and latency). Main memory texturing on the PC probably won't even approach that kind of performance for another 15 years at the rate we're going (of course, that's why PC engines don't do main memory texturing). Also, since FleXIO and XDR are both serial busses divided into finite lanes, you can transfer over each lane asynchronously, which means TLP could cover up SOME latency. Something you can't do on a PC.

3) The Cell can do a lot for the RSX, but even by supplying vertex data, texture data, and other stuff as well only a small portion of the FlexIO's extra bandwidth will come into play at most times. Apparently, what developers have said is that the benefit of the FlexIO between the Cell and RSX is actually the fact it supports high bursts of data.
Yeah, for things like vertex data, you need lower latency more so than higher bandwidth, because the CPU is waiting, and since the CPU's clock is so high, there's that much more wasted work due to latencies. Cardbus architectures on the PC are total garbage for latency. While the GPU is comparatively less affected, waiting is still waiting. The actual profile of a GPU's activity on a PC isn't so much that it's performing badly all the time. It's performing very well and then reports some messages and then it's just sitting idly for another push.

woundingchaney

07-08-2006, 06:44 PM

Ummm... actually, I just figured it wounding's was an "if only" kind of post, so I continued down that path. I'm not saying that it's necessarily true.

Actually wounding's post wasnt really targetted to be much of anything more like a joke.

Nameless

07-08-2006, 07:34 PM

MILR, I still encourage your pursuit to obtain definitive information regarding the RSX, but you have to consider that developers are potentially risking their jobs and livelihood if they disclose ANY information in violation of the NDAs. Honestly would you even potentially risk your job (career) and putting food on the table for your family just to please some guy ranting on the internet. :crazy2:
I think we both know the answer to that question...

Now let's look at the big picture, I agree the hardware specs are important, but look at what has been accomplished with the PS2 hardware. The PS2 had a 300 MHz 128-Bit CPU & 150 MHz GPU with 4MB of embedded DRAM.
(My cell phone has a more powerful CPU than the PS2...)

Savvy developers managed to pull off pseudo-HDR rendering, motion blur, self shadowing, Shaders, pseudo volume particles & light scattering, normal / bump mapping, etc. I could keep going, but you see the point, most of the visual techniques used for next-gen titles were used in some way even on the old antiquated PS2 hardware. MILR never underestimate what can be achieved by knowledgeable developers.

If the RSX is simply a modified 7900 card we have no worries...
The developers will produce some amazing results; just play your PS2 for proof. Peace :cheers:

makeitlookreal

07-08-2006, 08:50 PM

Frosty,

One thing that I thought would be obvious if there was a duel core or multiple cores is that automatically (for the same reasons you have mentioned) that would actually absolutely require a wider, bigger, or better bus (still learning what all the exact terminology actually means) to create more bandwidth to keep the extra cores fed.

Regardless of that issue lets say the RSX is a single core chip. I think the best thing they could do is increase the bandwidth by whatever means possible. Seriously, from what I have read about the PC parts when they are starved of bandwidth their performance really slacks. I am skeptical if even really large caches could completely solve the problem. At best they help optimize bandwidth usage but don't create new bandwidth. And cache only helps with bandwidth to a point after that the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

Let me ask you Frosty is there any other way to increase the bandwidth in the PS3 instead of just increasing the BUS size? When the RAM is clocked higher in the GPU does that potentially increase the bandwidth as well?

Could Sony use a NEW technology to add bandwidth to the system? Do you think we are absolutely set in stone limited to the kinds of connections currently "officially" in the PS3?

Personally, I find the pulsed ultrawideband technology I posted about a while back facinating. The chips are tiny (perhaps just three milimeters square), consume little power (a few watts), and can wirelessly transmit data at a rate of up to 1Terabit per second. Some of the same fabs Sony is going to use for PS3 parts have worked on these chips and one main feature of them is that compared to other technologies that physically connect electrical components together these chips connect them WIRELESSLY.

Just a few thoughts.

makeitlookreal

07-08-2006, 09:13 PM

Nameless,

Ninja Theory responding to the question simply by saying, "Go check out the specs released by Sony already and you have your answer" is not giving out information. Also, saying no comment is not giving out information. I am going to wait and just see if they respond to my question on their forum. According to what all of you are saying Marco took a HUGE risk in his interview with us compared to what I am asking about.

I have no doubt developers will pull off amazing things. However, the truth of the matter is that performance comes from the hardware. Developers can optimize the hardware, get the most out of the hardware, and do amazing things with hardware. But the true power of the system comes from the hardware. That is reality. If the hardware has major obvious bottlenecks (like putting a PC card in the PS3 and giving it about half the bandwidth when it's already a bandwidth starved card) it is going to effect the power of the hardware and the final performance of the console. Developers can do a lot. I think they can do a tremendous ammount. But they can't make something from nothing. If you have X ammount of hardware and it's perfectly utilized by developers you can only get X ammount of performance. That's the truth of the matter. Now, sometimes it SEEMS that developers can do magic but that's only because many developers don't try as hard as others, don't put in as much effort, don't have as much money to work with, or simply are still in the learning curve.

You see, I'm the kinda person that if someone tell's me something I want them to live up to their comments. I'm not some jerk who gets mad because people are not always perfect, because I know we all make mistakes and I am surely a messed up scatterbrained individual myself.

But when a company like Sony claims the RSX is going to be the most powerful GPU ever made at the time of the PS3's launch, claims that it has been fully optimized to work in the PS3, claims that it's not a PC part but a truly customized chip that they have spent millions of dollars and thousands upon thousands of manhours, and so fourth I honestly expect *not* just an *average* GPU, but a DARN AMAZING ONE! I'm not saying it is going to be perfect or not have any flaws whatosever. But it obviously should perform a *lot* better than the PC part they pulled off the shelf and this means it better perform just as well or even BETTER as the PC part with the much lower bandwidth the PS3 provides.

Now, I honestly think Sony can pull this off, but as a potential consumer I want to know the specs so we can know what they have done to make this chip so powerful, so customized, so optimized, LIKE THEY HAVE CLAIMED.

Nameless

07-08-2006, 09:44 PM

MILR, I respect your response, but I can't agree with the statements.
The hardware is very important to the overall success of a console, but the software is always paramount... If you give developers a console that is incredibly powerful and meets every demand the results may still not live up to everyone's expectations... Power alone does not guarantee success, developers still need to know what they are doing and in a lot of ways I think the 360 & PS3 are ahead of the developers from a technological perspective.

The most powerful console in the world will not magically make a poor developer produce great results... Just look at the difference in quality of titles on all platforms, developers and software is the most important variable.

I want to know about the RSX just like many techies on this forum, but I don't want to lose perspective of the bigger picture, the resulting software. Peace

makeitlookreal

07-08-2006, 10:52 PM

Software can only work in the limitations of the hardware.

Look, I am not trying to debate how far developers will be able to push the PS3. I'm just saying Sony has made some big claims for the RSX, but the logical truth of the situation makes their claims look ridiculous unless there is a lot we don't know bout.

Lets say the RSX is a 7800 with little modifications. Sony has said that it would be a "custom" chip, the "most powerful GPU ever made", fully optimized to work in the PS3, and have made a bunch of other claims making the RSX into something really special.

All I am saying is if the RSX is just a 7800 inside of the PS3 then those claims are all absolutely ridiculous and false because the performance of the GPU would be far worse than in a regular PC.

I don't really want to debate the whole software thing. I am just saying that if there has not been a LOT of extra work and modifications done on the 7800/7900 and perhaps some extra bandwidth added in the PS3 that Sony's statements were all falsehoods.

Do I think that a regular 7800/7900 could perform well in the PS3? Sure.

But it would NEVER perform even nearly as well as a 7800/7900 with enough modifications so the bandwidth is no longer an issue compared to the PC part, latency has been taken care of, etc.

I think that Sony has taken care of these issues. We just need to find out how.

jako

07-09-2006, 12:39 AM

By the way what does mean :
"Q13. Are the specifications and design final ?
A13. Very close to final."

I thought the final dev kits were out. Are they upgrading something ?
I mean, if they want to have 2M PS3 in november they will very soon sample it, so how can they upgrade it now, it seems very late for me.
What do you think of this A13 statement ?

makeitlookreal

07-09-2006, 12:54 AM

All the DevKits at the time of E3 did NOT have the REAL RSX in them. All they had were similiar NVIDIA graphics cards.

The RSX is a SEPERATE chip that will only be in the final devkits.

Beenie Man

07-09-2006, 01:25 AM

So basically, the GPUs in the dev kits at E3 were not the RSX but a similar GPU that are close to the specs of the RSX. So then that means the real RSX+the final Blu-Ray drive+the final controller was shipped in June to the PS3 game developers?

overclocked

07-09-2006, 01:36 AM

No it most probably means that their MHz wasnt up too spec. ´
I think this is way to farfetched and MILR if you ask a developer something by RSX and he said its "very good" or insert other "word" i dont think that qualifes for the thread title, in fact it doesnt imo.

But you are percistant and their is no way to speed you down. ;)

makeitlookreal

07-09-2006, 01:53 AM

Overclocked,

The term RSX is being used for many of the different GPU's that have been used in DevKits. But a Sony PR man told some folks at E3 that *none* of the DevKits actually had the RSX. Yes, they had an NVIDIA GPU that was probably in some ways similiar, but the RSX was a *different* GPU.

The speed difference is NOT the only issue.

Basically, any *special* features that are possible with the RSX were not available at E3 of 2006.

PS: By the way... this is what Sony has done with the PS3's specs...

The situation is like Ford coming out with a brand new Mustang. Two years before it comes to market they claim it has (making up random specs here) a 5.6 liter V8 engine, duel exhaust, 300 horsepower, fuel injection, and anti-lock breaks. But then a few months before the car is to finally be sold they change all those specifications to, "Our car has an engine and wheels." That is basically what Sony has done, but with the PS3.

overclocked

07-09-2006, 02:24 AM

Overclocked,

The term RSX is being used for many of the different GPU's that have been used in DevKits. But a Sony PR man told some folks at E3 that *none* of the DevKits actually had the RSX. Yes, they had an NVIDIA GPU that was probably in some ways similiar, but the RSX was a *different* GPU.

The speed difference is NOT the only issue.

Basically, any *special* features that are possible with the RSX were not available at E3 of 2006.

But i just think your expecting to much. When PS3 comes nVidia will likely already have their GeForce8800 so by that way of thinking the RSX is obsolete before its sold.

Theres no magic spell Sony can throw, its just that simple. Do you think that they would pay in PS3s lifetime a billion or more just to make 2% of the byers happy? Your not realistic MILR about the costs in the end MILR.

Sure if there is some extra boost here and there its great, or some "suprise" as you say, but lets keep it in the realm of reality.
A free game for early adopters of the deluxe model would be something i look forward to more.

cornholio12

07-09-2006, 03:37 AM

RSX= 7950+powerpc 440 hybrid,edram, spe's, emulates ps2 hardware and can work with cell for ps3 games. ps2 "ram" emulated by spe cache/edram hybrid that can communicate with cell

jaxmkii

07-09-2006, 05:21 AM

jaxmkii

07-09-2006, 05:34 AM

Oh and ign doesn't seem to impressed , seems like alot of stuff was missing from the trailer Seems like ign doesn't agree with you on how great the game looks .
OH SNAP! you waste you time on Ign? no wonder you a PS hater:laugh: BTW where is that pass pick?

jaxmkii

07-09-2006, 05:42 AM

Now let's look at the big picture, I agree the hardware specs are important, but look at what has been accomplished with the PS2 hardware. The PS2 had a 300 MHz 128-Bit CPU & 150 MHz GPU with 4MB of embedded DRAM.
(My cell phone has a more powerful CPU than the PS2...)

to bad MHz is a horrably inacurate way to judge power or i would be inclined to aggree.

woundingchaney

07-09-2006, 06:24 PM

Quote:
PSINext: As previously discussed, beyond it's high quality one of the primary reasons for the use of NAO32 is that it saves bandwidth in a bandwidth-hungry environment. In the future do you feel RSX will be at a disadvantage to Xenos when it comes to framebuffer effects due to the 128-bit bus and lack of eDRAM?

Marco: Not at all; in fact for many framebuffer effects I believe RSX will have an edge over Xenos. Don't want to go into details, but let me just point out that RSX is connected to two seperate buses, not just one.

This statement is not necessarily true and should be viewed as personal opinion (granted Im sure his opinion is educated). The NT devs never worked with final hardware only early dev kits on the 360.

Here is an excellent discussion at B3D that is currently going on for anyone interested on the topic.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31559

Although in essence no conclusion can be drawn, but there is excellent info of Xenos as well as RSX (hint hint MILR) :).

Nameless

07-09-2006, 07:27 PM

to bad MHz is a horrably inacurate way to judge power or i would be inclined to aggree.

Jax, I was using the specs to make a point regarding the power of the PS2 and the great results of strong developers.

frosty

07-09-2006, 08:57 PM

Just because he hasn't worked on it doesn't mean he doesn't know what is in it or what it is capable of, nor does it mean that he doesn't know and regularly talk to people who do work on the final hardware.

Rubbernek

07-09-2006, 09:04 PM

This statement is not necessarily true and should be viewed as personal opinion (granted Im sure his opinion is educated). The NT devs never worked with final hardware only early dev kits on the 360.

Here is an excellent discussion at B3D that is currently going on for anyone interested on the topic.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31559

Although in essence no conclusion can be drawn, but there is excellent info of Xenos as well as RSX (hint hint MILR) :).

The statement is true. It's well known that any operation that does not make use of the EDRAM will be bandwidth limited compared to the same operation on PS3. The smaller CPU-GPU bandwidth and unified memory leads to more contention (a bottleneck highlighted by developers in the Japanese Impress Watch article).

It seems that XBOX 360 has comprised quality for a small gain in speed as illustrated by one of the devs comments on being pretty much stuck with FP10 HDR (NAO32 not suitable for Xenos and no blending support for FP16). It's faster but quality suffers - but I guess life is full of compromises.

Superior lighting on PS3 games is probably one of the reasons we're seeing games reach a more "CG-ish" look as opposed to the "PC-graphics" look of XBOX 360 games.

The recent news on some specifics of Cell+RSX collaboration is also very exciting. A 50% or more additional graphical advantage for PS3 over XBOX 360 is no small thing (especially since we are already seeing superior realtime graphics from Beta-kits with non-final underclocked GPU's - Lair, FFXIII, MGS4, Naughty Dog, R&C).

Imagine the step-up with final RSX running at final clockspeed (from current 430 Mhz to 550 Mhz - or more) and then add another 50% still on top of that.

Just as Carmack said on G4TV the graphics potential of PS3 is higher than XBOX 360 but it's not all doom and gloom for XBOX 360. It's highly-touted "ease of development" will mean that average or mediocre devs should be able to reach a middling level of graphics more easily than on the PS3.

woundingchaney

07-09-2006, 11:21 PM

The statement is true. It's well known that any operation that does not make use of the EDRAM will be bandwidth limited compared to the same operation on PS3. The smaller CPU-GPU bandwidth and unified memory leads to more contention (a bottleneck highlighted by developers in the Japanese Impress Watch article).

It seems that XBOX 360 has comprised quality for a small gain in speed as illustrated by one of the devs comments on being pretty much stuck with FP10 HDR (NAO32 not suitable for Xenos and no blending support for FP16). It's faster but quality suffers - but I guess life is full of compromises.

Superior lighting on PS3 games is probably one of the reasons we're seeing games reach a more "CG-ish" look as opposed to the "PC-graphics" look of XBOX 360 games.

The recent news on some specifics of Cell+RSX collaboration is also very exciting. A 50% or more additional graphical advantage for PS3 over XBOX 360 is no small thing (especially since we are already seeing superior realtime graphics from Beta-kits with non-final underclocked GPU's - Lair, FFXIII, MGS4, Naughty Dog, R&C).

Imagine the step-up with final RSX running at final clockspeed (from current 430 Mhz to 550 Mhz - or more) and then add another 50% still on top of that.

Just as Carmack said on G4TV the graphics potential of PS3 is higher than XBOX 360 but it's not all doom and gloom for XBOX 360. It's highly-touted "ease of development" will mean that average or mediocre devs should be able to reach a middling level of graphics more easily than on the PS3.

Yes the RSX has the advantage in consideration when not using edram effects however the Xenos uses a dual bus system "similar", 22.4 main and 32.4 solely for pixel. Pixel fillrate seems to be the main cause of bandwith limiting. (I really need to read up on Edram interaction on Xenos)

Yes there are limitations to a unified memory pool although there are as well to a split pool especially in instances where/if the Cell is memory limited from requesting XDR memory by RSX would/could lead to serious performance issues.

I believe there was statements that NAO32 could be utilized on the Xenos (although most likely not in its current state) although Im unsure of this. FP16 on the RSX would be cause a large performance hit and this was the cause of the creation of NAO32 a much less demanding form of HDR. PS3 has the possibility for superior lighting much like it has the possiblity for 1080p but not without sacrifices in other areas of performance.

Im not sure of what your speaking on the Cell or new documents regarding RSX+Cell. Are you referring to the Cell's ability to write to the framebuffer (nor am I aware of where this 50% figure has come from)?.

Carmack referred to the Cell processor and really wasnt given a chance to speak about the RSX. I believe the only thing he was allowed to say was that he had "issues" with the PS graphics chip before he was cut off. He used a figure like 10 or 20 percent referring to the Cell and Xenon, but said that due to complicated programming much of this was nullified.
-this isnt word for word nor am I completely sure it is correct/accurate either, been awhile since the Carmack interview on G4-