(Matt IGN)comments Lair rumours

[Pumpkin Head]

...We've seen some pretty awesome scenes in trailers of Lair. We know there will be dozens, if not hundreds of dragons on-screen at a given moment. We know that the riders of these dragons occasionally war while in mid-air. And we know the game uses just about every kind of texture effect in the book in the realization of these beasts.

But I think Lair will also be one of the first games to truly utilize Sony's new motion-sensitive controller. Much more so than Warhawk. Rumor has it, you'll be able to fly the dragons around with a pretty intense physics system and using the controller's tilt functionality you can send them diving to and from, swinging to the left and right or even turn them into flips.

Rumors suggest that the control mechanics run deeper, though. Imagine, for instance, being able to actually control an on-ground camera with the tilt/accelerometer functionality of the controller? I would like that. Now, another pretty picture.

More hearsay indicates that the game will be one of the first to run natively in 1080p, with some seriously detailed textures to boot. Not some upscaled fake-out job, but legitimate 1080p. How can you get past the frame buffer? Streaming, streaming and more streaming, I'm sure.

Will be interesting to see if this turns out to be the case. Certainly the guys at Microsoft have repeatedly called it an improbability and stopped just shy of shouting that it's an impossibility.

Anyhoo, some good stuff. If I were a gambling man, I'd expect to hear a lot more about Lair in the next few months. In the meantime, it's definitely one of the sole reasons why I want a PS3 right now. ...


http://blogs.ign.com/Matt-IGN/2006/08/15/

[mario25]

Sounds very interesting!!, I hope they show the game next month on TGS

[frosty]

Umm.. it's a given. TGS is the last stand. Sony is standing with guns drawn, knowing this is their last shot before launch. They are going up against a very strong opponent's highly anticipated launch, and another opponent with powerful hardware and a year's worth of games and development experience. Get ready for some really cool things to be unveiled in the coming weeks.

[mario25]

I sure hope so, I'm looking forward to the ps3 because I know it will have incredible games like the ps1 and ps2 had, but it's time we see those games (besides the ones we already know about) and get even more exited!!! :XD:

[GTShotoKen]

Umm.. it's a given. TGS is the last stand. Sony is standing with guns drawn, knowing this is their last shot before launch. They are going up against a very strong opponent's highly anticipated launch, and another opponent with powerful hardware and a year's worth of games and development experience. Get ready for some really cool things to be unveiled in the coming weeks.

You are making this so much harder to bare instead of making it better frosty. :(

TGS is soooooo far away....

[Jasonps3]

It's only one month away, Gaming Guru. It's not long now (well, in my head it's not). Damm, Leipzig Games Convention is next week. After that, I know this forum is gonna be crazy until TGS.

[Red_Eyes]

Can't wait for this game at TGS. The graphics porn is going to be so over the top.

[makeitlookreal]

If Lair ends up looking as good or better than what we have seen so far and runs at a full 1080P with a frame rate of at least 30FPS then I will be very, very impressed.

Quite frankly, I don't know how they are going to pull it off because you have to remember that the PS3 doesn't have any more memory than the 360, but seems to be producing games that blow away what we have seen so far from that console.

Take lair for example. It looks stunning.
Take MGS4 for example. It look stunning.
Take Motorstorm as an example. It looks *very* good.
Take that other 1080P game that was running at E3... darn.. my brain skipped a beat. It looked great.

All these games are looking superior to the 360 and the 360 has already been launched for a little while.

I am no expert in these matters, but it seems to me that the PS3 must have some extra bit of oomph in it that's allowing all this.

How big is a 1080P frame buffer anyway?

[Beenie Man]

Well maybe because the PS3 is more powerful(no shit).

[makeitlookreal]

I know that's the case, but I can't help part of my personality not only likes to gaze at the amazingly beautiful images but also to know what is allowing them to be created.

[MaceSin]

I can't wait to know more about this game. I'm not worried at all about the graphics because the guys behind Lair are wizards with hardware. I just need to see some actual gameplay in motion. If only they show it at Leipzig.

[makeitlookreal]

I just don't understand the benefit of pushing games so high in resolution. Maybe it's just that I'm used to watching TV and games with an old standard definition TV with bad color. But what's the use of pushing up the resolution higher and higher if it means the actual features of the game can't look as good?

I mean, what is the exact benefit of 1080P? 720P looks amazingly crisp and sharp to me.

[Beenie Man]

I know that's the case, but I can't help part of my personality not only likes to gaze at the amazingly beautiful images but also to know what is allowing them to be created.

Well, the RSX.:thumbl:

Anyway, I agree with you on the PS3 thing. I have been noticing that alot of PS3 games look and technically have better gameplay than 360 games. I always here ''they are extremely close in power.'' But that simply is not the case. Almost every damn developer or insider(like Tommy Talarico, John Carmack) has already stated the PS3 is more powerful than the 360. I think it also has to do with the components of the PS3. The RSX+Cell and the Blu-Ray drive mixed with the fast access to the Memory RAM and streaming capabilities of th HDD+Blu-Ray drive. Really exciting. I personally believe in this list.

Best Looking RPG:Final Fantasy XIII
Best Looking Dirt Racer:MotorStorm
Best Looking Console FPS:Resistance: Fall Of Man(IMO)
Best Looking Racer:Gran Turismo 5 Based On The TGS Trailer(IMO)
Best Looking Flight Sim: WarHawk(looks better than Blazing Angels in my opinion)
Best Looking Ninja Game: Heavenly Sword
Best Looking Action Two Player Game:Eight Days(if the trailer was legit)
Best Looking Stealth Espionage: Metal Gear Solid 4(IMO)
Best Looking Action Adventure Platformer: Naughty Dog's ''Big''(animations and physics are really something)
Best Looking Launch Title As Well As Game:Lair:thumbl:

Sorry, but I tend to hyperbole. But I seriously think alot of PS3 games look better than 360 games. But I do not want the Xbots to hear it.:shifty:

[agentorange]

Im sure this is JUST BS!!! A FAKE!!! or just a speculation. Another person who wants attention. A FAke! By th way if that 1080p is true( which i doubt) Theres no way it will run on 60 fps. Thats to much for ps3 specs.

Also this person is expecting to much from it. Those things he said are all his ideas. All pipe dream

[makeitlookreal]

Agent Orange,

No, we do not know if that is too much for the PS3's specs or not because we really don't know the full specs of the system yet. Also, were not experts and it's really not fair for us to say something is *totally* impossible especially when there was already a demo of a really good looking game running at 1080P at E3.

1080P is *very* possible on the PS3. Actually, it's not that difficult at all. The problem is giving up the extra detail and effects just to be at 1080P instead of 720P. Personally, I don't understand the wisdom of using 1080P at this point in time. However, once again we don't know the full specs yet.

Once again the two biggest issues in my mind are memory and bandwidth. If the they can pull off a great looking game at 1080P with a good frame rate then the system must have some extra memory or bandwidth somewhere that we don't know about yet.

[agentorange]

Agent Orange,

No, we do not know if that is too much for the PS3's specs or not because we really don't know the full specs of the system yet. Also, were not experts and it's really not fair for us to say something is *totally* impossible especially when there was already a demo of a really good looking game running at 1080P at E3.

1080P is *very* possible on the PS3. Actually, it's not that difficult at all. The problem is giving up the extra detail and effects just to be at 1080P instead of 720P. Personally, I don't understand the wisdom of using 1080P at this point in time. However, once again we don't know the full specs yet.

Once again the two biggest issues in my mind are memory and bandwidth. If the they can pull off a great looking game at 1080P with a good frame rate then the system must have some extra memory or bandwidth somewhere that we don't know about yet.

Yeah okay on how about 60 fps? Its important for a game base on flying since there are lots of speed in here. so do you actually believe that matt dude?

[VG Aficionado]

You're so boring, agentorange... most games on every platform will NOT run at 60 fps, and even this doesn't mean PS3 can't run some game at either 720p or 1080p at 60 fps some day, so stop complaining, please.
Besides, who said 60 fps in the first place? You're complaining about stuff in your imagination :whogives:

[GTShotoKen]

It's only one month away, Gaming Guru. It's not long now (well, in my head it's not). Damm, Leipzig Games Convention is next week. After that, I know this forum is gonna be crazy until TGS.

I know, but time isn't passing any faster lol.

Lair has always been a point of major interest with me.

I know this title will be a definite blockbuster. :)

[overclocked]

Well i say my own opinion again, LAIR is going to be the best looking title every category, it already is IMO! :)

The story about LAIR is very interesting, for ex heres a statement and only a streaming sample video from China Game Summit 2005: where Julian Eggebrecht, CEO of Factor5 and the headguy(real nice he seems if someone watched the documentries from the starwars games F5 did on GC) takes the start of and explain in mid 05 about LAIR very vague but give his time-period.

Here is the new/old vid but watch it http://www.gdctv.net/M4V88892/

On FACTOR5s homepage it looks like LAIR is "starting to finish up cause, well see for yourself: http://www.factor5.com/projects.shtml Already a "TBA" new title, hmmmm... ;)

Some jobs they seeking now=
-JOB OPENINGS @ Factor5

Computer Graphic Designer & Programmer
Lead Game Programmer
Network Gameplay Programmer
Senior Engine Programmer
Senior Game Programmer
Senior Network Gameplay Programmer

:)

[archy121]

Nice find mate !


Archy

[Crossbar]

I don't understand the wisdom of using 1080P at this point in time.
It will help Sony push 1080p displays and will be something the 360 can't do.

[makeitlookreal]

However, this is my point. It seems that having only 256MB of GDDR3 RAM and 256MB of XDR RAM (that's going to have more latency) is not going to be a *lot* for a 1080P game, framebuffer, etc. If they are really pushing 1080P then that means that current games running at 720P could suffer in quality. However, if there was an increase the specs such as RAM perhaps that's why we are seeing this sudden push? Also, perhaps it's why we are seeing such a leap in game quality?

[Crossbar]

However, this is my point. It seems that having only 256MB of GDDR3 RAM and 256MB of XDR RAM (that's going to have more latency) is not going to be a *lot* for a 1080P game, framebuffer, etc. If they are really pushing 1080P then that means that current games running at 720P could suffer in quality. However, if there was an increase the specs such as RAM perhaps?
Read my lips, there will be no increase in RAM size.

The PS3 will be price competetive with the 360 in a not to distant future. Because of that they cannot afford more RAM. The die shrinks of RAM does not offer the same cost saving as the die shrinks of the core components (Cell RSX).

[makeitlookreal]

On the siggraph thread there is a quote from a developer saying that Oblivion has nothing on Lair when it comes to textures. He is not exactly saying those words, but that's the point he is trying to make. To run oblivion well it takes a pretty high end graphics card and a lot of RAM. It's hard for me to believe that he could be making such statements if the PS3 is really limited to only 512MB of total RAM.

[Crossbar]

On the siggraph thread there is a quote from a developer saying that Oblivion has nothing on Lair when it comes to textures. He is not exactly saying those words, but that's the point he is trying to make. To run oblivion well it takes a pretty high end graphics card and a lot of RAM. It's hard for me to believe that he could be making such statements if the PS3 is really limited to only 512MB of total RAM.
The PS2 has about 36 MB of RAM in total. I have to pinch myself in the arm at times to actually believe that when I play games.

512 MB is a HUGE AMOUNT of RAM!!!!!

[archy121]

512 MB is a HUGE AMOUNT of RAM!!!!!
Reply With Quote

Not forgetting to subtract the memory requirements that were later reserved for OS.

[VG Aficionado]

On the siggraph thread there is a quote from a developer saying that Oblivion has nothing on Lair when it comes to textures. He is not exactly saying those words, but that's the point he is trying to make. To run oblivion well it takes a pretty high end graphics card and a lot of RAM. It's hard for me to believe that he could be making such statements if the PS3 is really limited to only 512MB of total RAM.I'm afraid he just means that Lair's textures are of a much higher quality than Oblivion's. If you ask me, Oblivion's textures are poor. However, Lair's are... *looks at avatar, feels owned*

[makeitlookreal]

512MB is NOT a huge ammount of RAM. It is a small ammount of RAM compared to today's top of the line gaming PCs.

Obviously, in a closed system you can get more out of it, but 512MB of RAM is not going to magically turn into the equivalent of 1GIG just because it's a console.

Also, the PS3's going to have a bloated OS that consumes 96MB of RAM.

Additionally, with the push for 1080P there is going to be a need for bigger, better, and more textures. Also, then you have the increased size of the framebuffer.

512 is not a *bad* ammount of RAM for the PS3. It just does not seem like enough when you factor in all these issues together, realize half of that RAM is going to have increased latency when being used, and then of course see Sony pushing for 1080P games.

I think this leap in graphics we are seeing is due to an increase of RAM in the PS3.

Hey, I might be wrong and you could be 100% totally correct. I'm just saying what I am thinking right now and giving my opinion.

[warmachine]

Gamefront (http://www.gamefront.de) claims that these are new screenshots of Lair. However I think, these are only screencaps from one of the Hi-Res E3 Trailers.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8375/lairmc1.jpg

[Crossbar]

Not forgetting to subtract the memory requirements that were later reserved for OS.
Whatever it will be it will be peanuts compared to Windows. :)

To put things in perspective:

Remember the main memory of the 360 was originally planned to be 256 MB. MS upped it when they found out about Sonys plan (from the 360 Inside story book).

The memory of the PS3 has been increased 14 times compared to the PS2 for gods sake!!!

Do you expect that increase for the PS4? That would be more than 7 GB of RAM? Remember the visual quality is by no means a linear function of the RAM size, the GPU has a much bigger impact.

512 MB is huge for a console believe me.

[VG Aficionado]

Yeah, nothing new.

[makeitlookreal]

You are not taking into consideration the fact that the resolution is so much higher this generation! Developers are working with 720P and 1080P which take up much more memory. Also, with all the memory needed for physics, animation, sound, a large bloated OS of 96MB, and other features 512MB is *not* as much as you think.

It's not a bad ammount and the PS3 could do okay with that ammount of memory, but it's clearly not optimal if they want to push the PS3 to do 1080P and keep a great level of graphical quality.

[VG Aficionado]

Don't sweat it MILR, there will be no memory upgrade. The best thing that could happen would be reducing the OS memory footprint with some future firmware update (just guessing).

[Crossbar]

You are not taking into consideration the fact that the resolution is so much higher this generation! Developers are working with 720P and 1080P which take up much more memory. Also, with all the memory needed for physics, animation, sound, a large bloated OS of 96MB, and other features 512MB is *not* as much as you think.
I am taking that into consideration, else it wouldnt be a next generation system would it?

Are you taking the faster and larger disk to stream data from into consideration?

[archy121]

Remember the main memory of the 360 was originally planned to be 256 MB. MS upped it when they found out about Sonys plan (from the 360 Inside story book).


Well you learn something everyday..

Those sneaky back biting monkeys always accusing Sony of copying -
The SWINES HoW DARE THEY !



:norris:

[Viano]

when did this thread turn into another `I want more ram` thread huh? milr.

[stanDarsh]

Back to topic guys.

[Goki]

Im sorta with MILR here, 1080p is acheviable but with hundrds of those dragons flying, i cant see a very good draw distance being possible with graphics looking that amazing already. And I second that flying games do best in 60fps and the developers if anything should be aiming for that rather than 1080p. But i guess theres a big boi named Sony pushing developers to 1080p just like with Konami and MGS4.

Then again TGS isnt far away now, and all beans wil be spilt....

[Handycrap101]

Hmmm, i've been holding back opinions on this game untill I've seen alot more footage. Don't get me wrong though, this game has some of the sexiest dragons I've ever seen.

[Old_Timer!]

Hey MILR good to see you liking a games graphics for a change...:cheers:

[Red_Eyes]

Many of you have forgotten about texture compression. Using texture compression (4x), it is possible to have about 1024 MB of textures in a 256 MB memory space. So 256 MB of ram is not that much of a limitation. The other thing is, Lair will use streaming. As you move around, only the textures you see will be loaded into RAM. Once you have gone pass a certain area, those textures are release so that there's space for new textures to stream in as you move around. By using these two methods, you can have a lot of high res textures in a very very large game.

[Chrome]

Factor 5 are one of the top developers, these guys don't think in the same realm of normal dev-houses. These guys started off as a hacking group, wrote a perfect R-Type clone on the Amiga then reversed engineered Nintendo's SNES console and released games with no dev-kit. Nintendo were so impressed with how they hacked their system that they were offered a job as Nintendo developers. They will learn the secrets of the PlayStation 3 way before more financial well off developers.

Lair is a very impressive game as was displayed at GDC, it made a few people question their own work such was the impact.

Most will learn why the inclusion of a Harddrive in the PlayStation 3 system was essential pretty soon enough.

[RavenFox]

My God you people just made me lose my mind. This is too f&^%ing much to bare. arghhhh 1080p for FTW microsoft lol.

[venomv]

MILR These are the minimum PC requirements for Madden 06 (first PC-PS2 gme that came to mind that should have (kinda) high requirements)

Pentium 3 – 800 MHz
256 MB of RAM
Windows XP or 2000
8X CD-ROM
DirectX 9.0
64 MB of Video RAM

These are the PS2 specs....

CPU: 128 bit "Emotion Engine" clocked at 294 MHz-32 MB RDRAM
Graphics: "Graphics Synthesizer" clocked at 147 MHz-4 MB Embedded DRAM video memory

And I am guessing that when you play Madden 06 in minimum requirements it doesn't even look as good as the PS2 version.

Ponder that.

[GTShotoKen]

Factor 5 are one of the top developers, these guys don't think in the same realm of normal dev-houses. These guys started off as a hacking group, wrote a perfect R-Type clone on the Amiga then reversed engineered Nintendo's SNES console and released games with no dev-kit. Nintendo were so impressed with how they hacked their system that they were offered a job as Nintendo developers. They will learn the secrets of the PlayStation 3 way before more financial well off developers.

Lair is a very impressive game as was displayed at GDC, it made a few people question their own work such was the impact.

Most will learn why the inclusion of a Harddrive in the PlayStation 3 system was essential pretty soon enough.

Hmm, I wonder how Guerrilla's programming genius compares to theirs?

[OmniCloud]

Good questin Guru...But aren't they all under the same branch now with Sony's WorldWide studios? If Guerrilla starts having problems getting Killzone up to speed, I"m sure they can get some help from all the devs in the SONY studios...

[RavenFox]

Guerilla have a very talented bunch and reading the devs posting over on the official Sony Forum there a great bunch of chaps too.

[makeitlookreal]

I would say that almost every modern game using modern GPUs uses texture compression already. Just because texture compression is allowed in the PS3 does not mean that it's RAM is more than any other game, because all other PC games do the same thing.

The only difference would be if the RSX had some more advanced texture compression built into it's internal hardware. For example, if they managed to build in support for something exotic like wavelet compression which can be 30:1 then that could be a very significant feature for the RSX. However, I have not heard of it supporting anything more than the standard formats.

EDIT:

In response to the Killzone question their developers have stated that they believe they will match the trailer and that it will be "easy" because the trailer was being ran on primitive hardware.

[fknuckle]

I was gonna say-can't you use the hard-drive as if it was ram/memory itself and store textures in there,and then stream them to where they need be?

[Viano]

I was gonna say-can't you use the hard-drive as if it was ram/memory itself and store textures in there,and then stream them to where they need be?

maybe too slow?

I think loading directly from BD is a better idea!

[frosty]

no, HDD will be faster than BD.

[Viano]

no, HDD will be faster than BD.

yes I was kidding

[cornholio12]

maybe too slow?

I think loading directly from BD is a better idea!

harddrive is faster i think. BD is only good for storage.

[woundingchaney]

maybe too slow?

I think loading directly from BD is a better idea!

Agreed I have never heard of a HD being fast enough to load texture memory, especially the removable one in the PS3 (or the 360 for that matter). Im pretty sure textures must be stored in Ram.

If so then every PC game would support the most outrageous textures imaginable and ram wouldnt be needed (as it is now the PC is behind the consoles in the textures area, for now).

[Viano]

nvm lol

[Viano]

harddrive is faster i think. BD is only good for storage.

thx lol

[cpiasminc]

Many of you have forgotten about texture compression. Using texture compression (4x), it is possible to have about 1024 MB of textures in a 256 MB memory space. So 256 MB of ram is not that much of a limitation.
Texture compression is used on all platforms (save pre-Gamecube), and PC is not an exception. PS2 is an exception, sort of, but we instead resort to using lower-color depth textures, which are only a few hundred bytes larger than the same size compressed texture.

One of the rarer tricks is exploiting effective resolution rather than absolute resolution. Some engines can afford to do this, and some can't (it's not a deficiency -- it's just a matter of the way things are done). For instance, it's quite possible to get more detail than you can get out of a 2048x2048 map while using half as much memory... but it also has the caveat that it requires more availabletexture slots.

[makeitlookreal]

Cpiasminc,

Do you agree that the RSX has better internal texture compression supported than the 360's GPU?

[OmniCloud]

Does it really matter the techniques the devs are using? I mean-the game is looking great already (these are real-time demos right?) and it's just first gen games?!! THe PS2 is infinitely inferior to PS3 just look above at Venomv's post-the graphical capabilites will be fine man. Just look at the package that comes with PS3 and its evident that there's more than enough tools to make some truly amazing games that play and look great! I just don't see where all the technical debates originate from? If u aren't a soon to be developer or programmer, I just don't see the need to ponder over the ins and outs of a system. That's not our job! Who cares HOW these guys get the games to look amazing as long as they do. And from the looks of it, the PS3 doesn't seem to be too shabby at all...

[Beenie Man]

THe PS3 is infintely inferior to PS3

Umm, WTF

[OmniCloud]

Oh u know what I mean BEENIE...

[agentorange]

The pics that where shown and the video in GDC and E3 is a cut scene not a game play okay even Factor 5 admitted in hte past that the very first video and the new video are cut scenes. this is the gameplay pic look at it.

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/698/698558/lair-screen-20060327004958573.jpg

as you can see that in gameplay the quality goes down considerably. But it looks impressive but not as spectacular as the video cutscenes. Theres no arugument that those are realtime that we saw in the video in gdc and e3 but THEY ARE CUTSCENES EVEN FACTOR 5 SAID THAT IN THE PAST. Lets wait for them too show gameplay pics or video before we praise them and hail them as the best. Lets see if they can really do that 1080p thing with all effects turn on.

[VG Aficionado]

Whatever. You just seem to compare everything to point out what's worse. We're tired of that.

[Illmatic]

The GDC screen looks beter than anything in any of the realtime trailers prior to GDC. The dragon looks alot more natural and realistic than the overly shiny models in the trailers.

BTW, in alot of cases, cutscenes = gameplay graphics.

[Crossbar]

as you can see that in gameplay the quality goes down considerably..
Don´t you like the rain effects?

[agentorange]

The GDC screen looks beter than anything in any of the realtime trailers prior to GDC. The dragon looks alot more natural and realistic than the overly shiny models in the trailers.

BTW, in alot of cases, cutscenes = gameplay graphics.

But in that gameplay pic you can easily see the jaggies and its not as clean as the Cut scene demo. By the way cutscenes always looks better because it thus not need those element needed for a gameplay like AI, physics, etc.

Again Im not critising Factor 5. I find that pic impressive too but I just hope that the cutscene will look the same for the gameplay part. Also that detailed and smooth.

[VG Aficionado]

You just can't help complaining about everything, can you? I would never enjoy any game if I thought the same way you do, always looking for flaws and being negative and... ugh. Enough already.

[makeitlookreal]

I don't think it's fair to judge any game from one screenshot that's not even final. I think by the time we see lair in action things will have improved.

[agentorange]

I do this so we will see a much better product in the end. Constructive criticism. This will help

[Fats]

No, it won't help, the Developers are already under enough pressure and they'll achieve whatever they can at this moment in time.

[Viano]

I do this so we will see a much better product in the end. Constructive criticism. This will help

what can you do lol?

[VG Aficionado]

You will never learn. I've got yet to see a post of yours discussing gameplay or the actual good things in terms of graphics. You're always playing an uncalled-for version of "spot the 8 flaws" game and that's not constructive unless you discuss the merits as much as you discuss the flaws. Besides, you will never help anyone by acting like that in a forum. Do you really believe developers are going to pay attention to your poorly grounded posts???

You must be really unhappy with everything, always looking for flaws instead of truly enjoying. I wonder if that behaviour goes beyond games: "Darling, you look good with make-up, but when you remove it you look much worse. However, you aren't always pretty, you always look bad somehow. And you promised to love me forever but you asked for divorce a week after we got married. By the way, I never cared about your personality, just about your flawed look, even though I never really liked it. But I'm constructive: it will help you to divorce me."

[Viano]

offtopic when is the show again?

[makeitlookreal]

VG,

Lets try and all get along with one another. You disagree with him and he is trying to be civil. Obviously, you two have different perspectives, but how about we all realize the fact that someone else can have a different point of view.

[overclocked]

I would say that the LAIR picture is not a cutscene but a "decision scene" that brings some strategic elements to the game.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

VG,

Lets try and all get along with one another. You disagree with him and he is trying to be civil. Obviously, you two have different perspectives, but how about we all realize the fact that someone else can have a different point of view.

But..he's being an idiot.

[OmniCloud]

Back to topic fellas...Does any1 know exactly what genre Lair is? I see these beautiful dragons so will the game like Panza Dragon or is it a action game and flying is just part of it?

[yoshaw]

Back to topic fellas...Does any1 know exactly what genre Lair is? I see these beautiful dragons so will the game like Panza Dragon or is it a action game and flying is just part of it?

My guess is we'll find out at TGS. Why? Remember the Monster Hunter games for PSP/PS2 from Capcom selling like hotcakes over there? Lair = Dragons and Monster Hunter = Dragons. Connecting the dots here results in .... Boo yeahhh!!! :pleased:

Well, speaking of Lair, this could be PS3's hottest ticket in Japan for launch. Japanese people are going to clamor on this title like no other in the history IMO! lol Atleast I hope it makes a difference there seeing how it is also got dragons.

[cliffbo]

The pics that where shown and the video in GDC and E3 is a cut scene not a game play okay even Factor 5 admitted in hte past that the very first video and the new video are cut scenes. this is the gameplay pic look at it.

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/698/698558/lair-screen-20060327004958573.jpg

as you can see that in gameplay the quality goes down considerably. But it looks impressive but not as spectacular as the video cutscenes. Theres no arugument that those are realtime that we saw in the video in gdc and e3 but THEY ARE CUTSCENES EVEN FACTOR 5 SAID THAT IN THE PAST. Lets wait for them too show gameplay pics or video before we praise them and hail them as the best. Lets see if they can really do that 1080p thing with all effects turn on.

give me inferior graphics like this on every PS3 game please :)

[yoshaw]

This is the GDC pic
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/698/698558/lair-screen-20060327004958573.jpg


See the realtime similarities from the E3 trailer below
Note: Interlacing is due to Gamespot's stupid encoding!

http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06334/Lair_PS3_01.jpg
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06334/Lair_PS3_02.jpg
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06334/Lair_PS3_03.jpg

[RavenFox]

If thats inferior than the other systems must be damn bottom mediocre.

[cornholio12]

WOW! at the screens. considering the pics are taken from non final kits.

[yoshaw]

WOW! at the screens. considering the pics are taken from non final kits.

Yup, nonfinal and notice how the GDC dragon is supporting the same neck collar as those of the screengrabs from the E306 trailer. Meaning, the E306 trailer could have very well been from an alpha/beta kits if anything. Which is freaking amazing! Factor5 people are definitely the Carmacks of home consoles. Deserve equal recognition and I'd presume they'd garner it with PS3, no doubt!

[cliffbo]

Yup, nonfinal and notice how the GDC dragon is supporting the same neck collar as those of the screengrabs from the E306 trailer. Meaning, the E306 trailer could have very well been from an alpha/beta kits if anything. Which is freaking amazing! Factor5 people are definitely the Carmacks of home consoles. Deserve equal recognition and I'd presume they'd garner it with PS3, no doubt!

you've also got to take into consideration that the factor5 guys are notorious for complaining about every generation of console and that the PS3 is the first platform that they are COMPLETELY happy with. now that says a lot...

[GTShotoKen]

you've also got to take into consideration that the factor5 guys are notorious for complaining about every generation of console and that the PS3 is the first platform that they are COMPLETELY happy with. now that says a lot...

Ok, now I'm really hyped for TGS!!!!

If Lair is Factor 5's first-gen title...then I wonder what their second and third-gen titles will look like?! :o

[Beenie Man]

Holy Shit is how they will look like.

[agentorange]

In MGS4 , FF13, naughty dogs game you can clearly see some jaggies . Even halo 3 and gears of war have jaggies and some polygons still noticeable. This new video is too perfect and its not just as par as the dreamworks or pixar works. It is exactly like them. Im sure that it is a target render since its so clean and moves very smooth to be a gameplay. Like killzone 2 and eight days it is a target render. But they will never achieve that same kind of quality but at least we are happy if its near the quality of that demo. By the way I want to clear things out. The first Video demo with the word realtime on it was not prerendered.

Also the vid where they slowly show how the dragons where made is realtime. Also the pic with menus on it and the dragon texture looks bland is realtime. But this one with the dragon rider on it and battle scenes is clearly prerendered and the devs did not even speak about this. Common sense , if this is realtime they have told it at once and brag about it like they did with the first video. Lair e3 2006 video, killzone 2, eight days are all CGI.

[VG Aficionado]

Oh no, not that crap YET AGAIN.

:whogives:

[yoshaw]

Yup, same ole crap, same ole bullshit. Nothing to see here!

[Viano]

In MGS4 , FF13, naughty dogs game you can clearly see some jaggies . Even halo 3 and gears of war have jaggies and some polygons still noticeable. This new video is too perfect and its not just as par as the dreamworks or pixar works. It is exactly like them. Im sure that it is a target render since its so clean and moves very smooth to be a gameplay. Like killzone 2 and eight days it is a target render. But they will never achieve that same kind of quality but at least we are happy if its near the quality of that demo. By the way I want to clear things out. The first Video demo with the word realtime on it was not prerendered.

Also the vid where they slowly show how the dragons where made is realtime. Also the pic with menus on it and the dragon texture looks bland is realtime. But this one with the dragon rider on it and battle scenes is clearly prerendered and the devs did not even speak about this. Common sense , if this is realtime they have told it at once and brag about it like they did with the first video. Lair e3 2006 video, killzone 2, eight days are all CGI.

one reason to hate democracy.

[overclocked]

IIRC the LAIR vid is unfortunate composed of ingamefootage(good) but mixed in production and final cut to it which involves CG/offline-rendering at the end of the production chain. There are quite many "spots" where it shines through imo atleast, not the beaty but the "finish".

I dont remember the source but il try to see if i can get confirmation on it.

Everyone thought the first Rougeleader-demo for GC showed at Spaceworld was prerendered
by FACTOR5( It was not:) ).

[frosty]

but mixed in production and final cut to it which involves CG/offline-rendering at the end of the production chain

What exactly are you getting at here? You can do all the post production editing you want, but if the source is real time, it's real time. I can understand if you are saying they spliced pre-rendered CG in with the video, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

[overclocked]

@Frosty. I *usually* always write what i think if you mean the structure of the sentence(which i hope is improving)..

If thats not what you meant btw theres lots and lots of things you cand do in "PostProduction", filters,AA and lightning etc that you surely now of.

So outsource the main-trailer for the E3 show and the DVD i dont see as anything strange at all.
Saves the team some work instead.

[agentorange]

IIRC the LAIR vid is unfortunate composed of ingamefootage(good) but mixed in production and final cut to it which involves CG/offline-rendering at the end of the production chain. There are quite many "spots" where it shines through imo atleast, not the beaty but the "finish".

I dont remember the source but il try to see if i can get confirmation on it.

Everyone thought the first Rougeleader-demo for GC showed at Spaceworld was prerendered
by FACTOR5( It was not:) ).

Factor 5 is known to brag about there creations but this time they did not talk about this one. Hey using are common sense you can clearly see that it is CGI. It has all the elements of CGI. But I still hope they will achieve that target render with ps3 specs

[EvilTaru]

Factor 5 is known to brag about there creations but this time they did not talk about this one. Hey using are common sense you can clearly see that it is CGI. It has all the elements of CGI. But I still hope they will achieve that target render with ps3 specs

The reason why they've been quiet is because just about every first/second-party SCEA developer (which doesn't include SOE btw) has been dramatically clamped down, and Factor 5 in particular ESPECIALLY when the shot with the HUD was leaked, these so-called "elements" you're referring to are real-time models, an example would be the dragon that was stabbed and the one that the main character in the trailer rode were both part of their real-time GC2006 video presentation, both of those were in the first real-time trailer they showed.

[yoshaw]

Eviltaru, not worth the effort to even prove him wrong. Been there done that... to no avail! Regardless of proof, he'll ignore every reasonable counterargument shown in this thread to conclude his point and argument with his own terms. First it was the HDR in FFXIII, then everything 1080p/60fps/full effects in Resistance and now he's found a new toy to play with Lair. His tactics are getting old and boring.

[overclocked]

Factor 5 is known to brag about there creations but this time they did not talk about this one.

No they dont, they are and have been more quiet than most other companys if not the most. Soo thats not true. Dont try to twist the thread into flaming, i dont think you will succed anyway with the guys here.
Its the most technical-hardcore oriented dev-studio i know of btw..

[agentorange]

No they dont, they are and have been more quiet than most other companys if not the most. Soo thats not true. Dont try to twist the thread into flaming, i dont think you will succed anyway with the guys here.

If you mean something else from your statement you could elaborate that.

But the first vid of lair that they showed they even labeled it in the first part as realtime. But this new one which looks more spectacular than even the movie Reign if fire they did not label it as realtime or showed some tech demos of it being manipulated unlike the 1st one. Just an observation. Its strange isnt?

[Beenie Man]

Maybe because they are under NDA. Just an observation.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

NO. IT ISN'T STRANGE.
It's the GAME, NOT CGI. I mean how absurd is it for the game to have improved in visual quality since the last few months it was shown, which in itself was old footage? And no it doesn't look better than reign of fire that was some good convincing MOVIE CG, this is not fooling me for real life, however great looking it is. They said from the start it's entirely in game, they shouldn't have to repeat themselves! Give it a rest!

[agentorange]

Maybe because they are under NDA. Just an observation.

Ok lets say that it is under NDA. But why in the first video they showed and the second one where the dragon is being showed it is labeled realtime and they even talk about it that it has more polygons than gears of war, bla bla blah?

But this new vid if the NDA reason is ture why did Sony put that in NDA? Isnt that strange? Like what happened with killzone 2 , eight days they also done this NDA thing. Actually this is the same kind of debate that I have last year about killzone 2 where i said that it is CGI. Almost The same statements and using my common sense. Now look what had happened? Killzone is CGI confirmed at least by the devs after many months of hiding and being pressured to talk.

As I said just use are common sense. If its realtime why will they hide it and be quiet about it? Its like asking person if his gay or not and he will beat around the bushes if he is gay. He will say that its up to you too decide or no comment, etc. If your a real man you will say at once that you are a man. Its that simple. Thats just an example. So why lie if telling the truth can help a lot? Get the point.

[frosty]

Dude, the realtime demos look easily as impressive as what I see there, it's just that the environments were not in place. There was nothing more to show than dragons and rain. Now that they have made some progress and acually included some substance, you cry CGI? It looks the same! Honestly, I even found a gripe that shows it is real time while watching the trailer. When the dragon is blowing fire at that dude, look at the ground. The textures are a little blurry. I remember that standing out and thinking it must be a limitation of GPU ram. None the less, it looked fucking amazing.

[agentorange]

Okay so the general consensus is that third video is CGI? So it is CGI

[frosty]

Um, where the hell did you get that from? Are you high?

I was saying the videos that were confirmed to be real time look as impressive as that trailer, so it's obvious it is real time. Did you even read:

Honestly, I even found a gripe that shows it is real time while watching the trailer. When the dragon is blowing fire at that dude, look at the ground. The textures are a little blurry. I remember that standing out and thinking it must be a limitation of GPU ram. None the less, it looked fucking amazing.


Our good friend CPI wrote an article about you.

http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=4&m_articles_articleid=550

[Beenie Man]

lol

[yoshaw]

Hmmm .... Guess I have to remind Agentorange again about what happend in the FFXIII thread when he kept lingering to his agenda setting tactics.

And so begins the pwnage time... regretably, once again!

Here's the GDC spy video grabs that shows the zbrush(?) techniques allowing Factor5 to create CG quality dragons on realtime PS3 devkits. Shown below is part of the process leading from GDC dragon wireframes upto full fledged dragons from the E3 trailer. Notice their(E3 builds) remarkable similarities with GDC's wireframe models.

http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_07.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_07.jpg) GDC
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_08.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_08.jpg)
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_09.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_09.jpg)
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_10.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_10.jpg)
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_11.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_11.jpg)
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_12.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_12.jpg)
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/e3_lair_02.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=e3_lair_02.jpg) E3
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/e3_lair_01.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=e3_lair_01.jpg)

Another GDC to E3 Dragon proof
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_02.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_02.jpg) GDC
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_03.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_03.jpg)
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_04.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_04.jpg)
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_05.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_05.jpg)
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/e3_lair_03.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=e3_lair_03.jpg) E3
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/e3_lair_04.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=e3_lair_04.jpg)
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/e3_lair_06.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=e3_lair_06.jpg)

More GDC to E3 realtime pwnage proof
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_13.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_13.jpg) GDC
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_14.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_14.jpg)

EVEN MORE GDC to E3 Realtime PWNAGE PROOF (Notice the same dragons)
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_15.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_15.jpg) http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_16.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_16.jpg) http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/gdc_lair_17.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=gdc_lair_17.jpg) GDC
http://xs305.xs.to/xs305/06341/e3_lair_05.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs305&d=06341&f=e3_lair_05.jpg) E3

[VG Aficionado]

Um, where the hell did you get that from? Are you high?Eviltaru, not worth the effort to even prove him wrong. Been there done that... to no avail! Regardless of proof, he'll ignore every reasonable counterargument shown in this thread to conclude his point and argument with his own terms. First it was the HDR in FFXIII, then everything 1080p/60fps/full effects in Resistance and now he's found a new toy to play with Lair. His tactics are getting old and boring.yoshaw said it best. He posts the exact same crap in other forums craving for attention. He'll ignore every reasonable argument and attempt to have the last word. Just don't bother countering his posts.

[frosty]

Cpiasminc's article sums it up perfectly. A fine piece of work it is.

[overclocked]

Dont now how many posts i said that LAIR will set the standard visually either by console or PC, dont matter which one.
But just too annoy a little this specific trailer has that cgish look to it no doubt(even for the untrained eye).

[agentorange]

Okay you showed me this demos and other stuuf but the point is in this newer vid they did not speak about wheter its realtime or not. They did not label it and there lips are sealed when ask about that vid. I believe alll the previous demo are realtime but this one my gosh please look closely its too CGI. Even the frame rate stuttered suggest that it is running per frame . It is prerendered but I hope they will achieve that. Please havent you learned after that killzone 2 CGi where sony said it is realtime? But at the end the devs said it is not.

[overclocked]

Close this thread mods now please, anything about CG make a video from 05 pop up apparently.

[yoshaw]

they did not speak about wheter its realtime or not. They did not label it and there lips are sealed when ask about that vid.

What kind of bull is that? You should do you homework properly kid. You always spew nonsense that you have no prior knowledge of. Ugh, but I should have known better by now.

Anyways, onto debunking your fud. Ofcourse they(factor5) have spoken about the video and haven't outright dismissed it as CGI. Why would a Factor5 rep be upset over nonshow of their game they worked on if all they were going to show was prerendered BS. We have a Factor5 dev on record upset about Sony's lack of showcasing LAIR at E3 this year. If it were pre-rendered footage, the response would had been a lot less sentimental I believe. But as you can read below, the reaction of Factor5 was genuinely surprised.


It's not up to Factor 5 about what gets shown and when, that's Sony's call. Sony will decide to show more off more of the game when they decide to.

--

While this not a confirmation by me and don't take it as confirmation, you'd be pretty good looking forward to the Playstation Meeting in July. Again, it's Sony that decides what to show. They could have shown more at E3 but decided not to for their own reasons.

--

I think you're reaching somewhat there Josh. To be honest I have no clue why Lair's showing at E3 was so small. The thing people thought was oh the game's falling behind or Factor 5 is having issues with the console when that's not true. Sony created that negative reaction by only showing 30 secs of the trailer.

And then we have them on record hinting to look at GDC pic for proof because they are under some sort of an NDA. The GDC pic looks remarkably similar to the E3 trailer footage, you're intentionally trying to miss the point of his hint if you're not willing to see the upgrades in the GDC pic from the first trailer(that had realtime written in it at the beginning of the video). It is not such a leap to consider that future builds of the game on final devkits would improve upon the same GDC pic(a pic which was probably taken off of alphakits).


Black_Samson18 posted:So was the trailer they showed at E3 realtime or CGI?

\

I was waiting for that to come up. In fact I'm surprised it took this long. The company and Sony anticipated this and we've been told to not answer the question. I can give you some idea of the current graphics though. Remeber the screenshot that surfaced from the GDC presentation? That was entirely real-time, in the engine, as in someone was actually playing the level(in fact I've played that level). Also in terms of the levels, Obivion has nothing on Lair

Quote:
Well obviously my opinion is not the company's opinion. There was more than just one reason for choosing the PS3 console. There's always things you have to take into account when you decide the platform besides the hardware such as publishers, funding, contracts, those kinds of things. That being said, the most obvious reason is power and the abilities of the hardware. I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to figure out which console is the most powerful of the 3.


And I should be a little clearer about the comment on Oblivion because I don't want this to turn into thread comparing such or give people the wrong impression. With Oblivion, you have thick forest that really prevent you from seeing that far ahead of you, that way the developers can stream in new geometry and textures as you pass through the levels. Oblivon may have a larger overall size in terms of miles, but you can only see a small amount of it in front of your screen. It's not this way in Lair.

The Factor5 developer was quoted as replying these Q/A's on IGN boards and recorded over at GAF, as previously hinted in one of our threads too.
http://forums.e-mpire.com/showpost.php?p=1186225&postcount=14

[Raijin]

I doubt Lair's E3 trailer was in real-time. Maybe like Heavenly Sword last year but i'm pretty sure Lair trailer wasnt in real-time.

[agentorange]

Close this thread mods now please, anything about CG make a video from 05 pop up apparently.

It just means that all of you concede that the third video is CGI. PERIOD.

[Crossbar]

Wow, two red boxes, I've never seen that before, quite an achievement, agentorange!!! :clap:

[OmniCloud]

TGS is only weeks away now fellas...And the launch is slowly approaching-Sony will hype the machine once more and show all the pretty stuff the devs have got up and running...

[VG Aficionado]

It just means that all of you concede that the third video is CGI. PERIOD.It just means that nobody likes you, and not because of your opinions, but because of your sheer stupidity and near total lack of good functioning neurons. Congratulations for the unprecedented two red boxes achievement and for being the most unpopular member of this forum since... well, I'd better not mention that "incident".

Nice posts yoshaw. It serves the purpose of illustrating reasonable arguments against blatant and blind idiocy.

:locked:

[venomv]

It just means that all of you concede that the third video is CGI. PERIOD.

Because you are an annoyance that forces threads to be the same thing for 100 posts you're right? Yeah..............that makes sense.....

[cpiasminc]

I believe alll the previous demo are realtime but this one my gosh please look closely its too CGI. Even the frame rate stuttered suggest that it is running per frame .
Ummmm... if it stuttered, that suggests it wasn't pre-rendered. Or at best, was dumped to an image stream from the engine and then compiled into a video. Granted, I haven't seen this video, so I won't really comment for certain that it is or is not CG, but that particular argument is pretty legless. A video rarely stutters unless something in the machine (usually the hard drive) can't keep up, and for conferences, that's usually verified over and over as it doesn't take much effort to play a video.

It is prerendered but I hope they will achieve that.
I don't believe that for an instant. I'm fairly sure you hope they *don't* achieve that, so that you can come in and perform some sort of "I told you so" dance. And even if they do achieve it to some extent, whatever benchmark that may be, you have no intention of conceding that and would instead pick apart the differences saying that it's like night and day.

Please havent you learned after that killzone 2 CGi where sony said it is realtime?
Interesting... because that never happened. The only people who ever said that the Killzone video was realtime were hope-flooded forum morons. Even the "5 fps sped up" thing was something that the press got from some claimant "inside man" of which the vast majority are invariably phonies. Every dev out there from just about any studio who saw it said there's no way in hell it was realtime. The closest thing Sony said to the idea that it's realtime was to say that "gameplay will look like this in the end."

[VG Aficionado]

Cpi, I wish he did read your post and suffered a stroke of intelligence, grew up and stopped acting like that. The problem is that he will just ignore the fact that everyone realises he's alone in his idiotic and fanboyist trollism rampage and will keep on posting more and more uncalled-for crap. If only there was a way to make him stop...

[Infernal]

Haven't all of LAIR's video's started by saying "The following demo is comprised of entirely in-game footage."

[LaLiLuLeLo]

If only there was a way to make him stop...

http://www.rovang.org/timeline/bigpics/gold_ranger.jpg
I CALL UPON THE POWER OF MODERATORS!!!
but seriously, TWO red bars? Stop being a douche, agentorange.

[Sephiroth_VII]

Cpi, I wish he did read your post and suffered a stroke of intelligence, grew up and stopped acting like that. The problem is that he will just ignore the fact that everyone realises he's alone in his idiotic and fanboyist trollism rampage and will keep on posting more and more uncalled-for crap. If only there was a way to make him stop...
Well, I have a katana, and Viper has his home address. If we can all split a trip for me to where he lives, then...

[Beenie Man]

....

[cliffbo]

How Did This Happen Again!!!!

[Sephiroth_VII]

Simple answer: stupidity + ignorance + blindness = agentorange = chaos

[frosty]

Cpiasminc is a developer that has worked with PS3 and 360 (if my memory serves me right) so you should take everything he says as truth. CPI, do me a favor and have a look at the new trailer and give us your thoughts on it. It can be found in the video archive section. Thanks.

[cpiasminc]

Looked at it... it appears to be a collection of both. There's some pre-rendered stuff, and some in-game realtime stuff I've seen before. Some of the momentary clips came from older demos which were said to be realtime. There are other moments that look to have not-in-game geometry and animations. There are instances where they try to hide it nicely, but not quite -- for instance, the hammer throw moment, you see two cuts back and forth, and the lighting angles are different in each clip -- there was an instant of realtime footage at the beginning, and then it switches to what appears to be CG (the chain and the human models makes me think that more than anything else).

There does appear to be a fair bit of retouching all over the video, but color saturation is really washed out on everything, so I can't tell for sure.

[frosty]

I couldn't help but feel the clip where the dude jumps from one dragon to another is real time after seeing the god of war 2 trailer and how close PS2 was able to come to that.

[Illmatic]

I think most of the dragons featured are game models, not sure about the characters.


http://www.sigmirror.com/files/336/lair-screen-20060327004958573%20copy.jpg

[frosty]

well, i'd say the dragons are more impressive than the humans visually.

^Is it just me or does the confirmed realtime shot look a helluva lot better than the trailer?

[Illmatic]

I think the trailer dragon has the edge. The screen grab is washed out thanks to Quicktime and it's not a very clear pic.

Here's a closer look at the textures.

http://www.sigmirror.com/files/336/lairclose.jpg

^The result of 3 more months in development.

[frosty]

i'm still not sold.

[Applefiend]

I'm sold. Rogue Squadron with Dragons, I love Rogue Squadron. Frankly, I love dragons. I'm there dude.

[agentorange]

Looked at it... it appears to be a collection of both. There's some pre-rendered stuff, and some in-game realtime stuff I've seen before. Some of the momentary clips came from older demos which were said to be realtime. There are other moments that look to have not-in-game geometry and animations. There are instances where they try to hide it nicely, but not quite -- for instance, the hammer throw moment, you see two cuts back and forth, and the lighting angles are different in each clip -- there was an instant of realtime footage at the beginning, and then it switches to what appears to be CG (the chain and the human models makes me think that more than anything else).

There does appear to be a fair bit of retouching all over the video, but color saturation is really washed out on everything, so I can't tell for sure.

This reply is what I believe. So why be irate on me? I'm looking for people who think straight. Willing to bet anyone? Im will bet my membership here that this one is compose of entirely CGI than realtime. Watch this space. Thank you!

[Viano]

This reply is what I believe. So why be irate on me? I'm looking for people who think straight. Willing to bet anyone? Im will bet my membership here that this one is compose of entirely CGI than realtime. Watch this space. Thank you!

don't bet on it, your multi-red-squares are very rare!

[yoshaw]

Im will bet my membership here that this one is compose of entirely CGI than realtime

Thank Goodness, we'll finally get rid of a troll because of his own stupid bet.

[VG Aficionado]

You're both hilarious and pitiful. First you try to put words in our mouths so that we all say we agree with you that it's all pre-rendered. Then you say cpiasminc's reply is what you're looking for, and what he says is that not everything is pre-rendered (and you didn't know - in other words, you've been pwn3d).

You and your two healthy neurons can leave forever now. We won't miss you.

[EvilTaru]

This reply is what I believe. So why be irate on me? I'm looking for people who think straight. Willing to bet anyone? Im will bet my membership here that this one is compose of entirely CGI than realtime. Watch this space. Thank you!

cpi's post doesn't even support your point, he's saying it's part CGI and part real-time, basically you're quoting something that contradicts your own claim.

[ddaryl]

This reply is what I believe. So why be irate on me? I'm looking for people who think straight. Willing to bet anyone? Im will bet my membership here that this one is compose of entirely CGI than realtime. Watch this space. Thank you!

Umm he clearly says there is real time footage in there.


You need to leave now

buh-bye

[makeitlookreal]

Agent Orange,

I don't agree with many of your posts, but I do want to apologize for the very rude way that some of my fellow members of E-mpire have treated. Even if you have different opinions than some of us or are simply wrong on some issues it is NOT an excuse for people to rudely verbally assault you.

Please do not leave these forums because of the way you have been treated. However, I would suggest listening and learning from your fellow forum members. They are not always right and all of us make errors. But my listening to those around us and incorporating their knowledge with our own we can learn.

[VG Aficionado]

Sorry MILR, but you don't get it. The problem here is that agentorange ignores all reasonable arguments and just wants to be right no matter how wrong he is, which is beyond idiocy and constitutes an insult to the intelligence of everyone here. He's done this many times before and he won't learn no matter what. We don't want him to keep doing that, he has never made a valuable contribution to this forum, just the contrary, so he'd better leave now.

[makeitlookreal]

Then just refuse to comment on his posts if you don't like what he has to say. Hey, I don't agree with him either, but I think there are better ways of handling a situation like this than being rude and hateful. I am tired of people outright insulting others on this forum.

Basically, what it comes down to is that by insulting him people will make him angry and he will become even less receptive to listening to reason (if anyone wants to respond to him at all).

After insulting him long enough he will get even more angry, all of you will get even more angry, a bunch of people will call for him to be banned and then we go down another bad path.

I'm not saying I like his posts, but I just don't want to see this escalate into a bad situation when we have so much cool and interesting news on the way.

Also, in principle, I just hate seeing people being insulted.

My own opinion is that if someone is so bad that you feel the need to insult them then it most situations the best then to do is simply not respond to them.

[yoshaw]

What a touching moment. My eyes have become all watery now! Thanks MILR, I never felt like a nerd before this epic moment. It baffles me beyond belief why wasn't I part of this elite brotherhood of forum members. No, seriously! I'm touched and need a hug now. :roll eyes:

Oh, and what VG said is more than true about agentorange.

[overclocked]

Whats wrong with mixing and spicing up the trailer. It seems that when *anyone* brings up CG Its a momentum to destroy Sony or F5, they are my biggest idols(f... that sounds geeky:loser: ) in this field but im sticking with my first post about mixed ingame models and some sequences being CGish.
Thing is i cant find the quote of it being some CG atleast.

Could someone encode the vid in highbitrate to an mpg.file.

The game will set a new visual standard anyway imo so i dont get the fuzz if they mix a little, we already now how it looks.

Btw i could well see this as a late 07 when thinking of it just to get the HYPE up cause none will touch this game, i hope its a triologi.

[yoshaw]

Could someone encode the vid in highbitrate to an mpg.file.

Doing it now. Wait for it.

LAIR 720p .mpg in 5000 video bitrate, almost 30MB ;)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZFUYFNT0

[Sephiroth_VII]

This reply is what I believe. So why be irate on me? I'm looking for people who think straight. Willing to bet anyone? Im will bet my membership here that this one is compose of entirely CGI than realtime. Watch this space. Thank you!
:wave:

[Fazares]

Whats wrong with mixing and spicing up the trailer. It seems that when *anyone* brings up CG Its a momentum to destroy Sony or F5, they are my biggest idols(f... that sounds geeky:loser: ) in this field but im sticking with my first post about mixed ingame models and some sequences being CGish.
Thing is i cant find the quote of it being some CG atleast.

Could someone encode the vid in highbitrate to an mpg.file.

The game will set a new visual standard anyway imo so i dont get the fuzz if they mix a little, we already now how it looks.

Btw i could well see this as a late 07 when thinking of it just to get the HYPE up cause none will touch this game, i hope its a triologi.
where did u see the cg?
and isnt that confirmed as 100% in-game gfx?:-/

[makeitlookreal]

If that was not all real-time then by the time the game is finally launched I think the graphics will match or exceed the target render.

For example, it seems almost every game is matching or at least coming darn close to their target renders. Even the folks at Killzone have stated on their board that they will be able to match their target render and that it will be "easy", Motorstorm is getting closer and closer to matching their target render, Heavenly Sword has nearly matched or exceeded their target renders, MGS4 is getting better all the time, etc.

Lair will be very, very good by the time it comes out.

[Fazares]

but i remember a video showing the devs moving the camera around the dragons....btw i m sure the game is all real time....

[overclocked]

To get in one sentence but clear.

The game will look the same even if they use higher poly figures cause you wont see it imo, its like a well directed cut-scene!

I hate when fanboys twist things and use it as fuel to light a fire.

Now lets return to a "regular" LAIR debate, this makes me freaking depressed.
OC over and out.

[Red_Eyes]

The following demo is comprised of entirely in-game footage.

[frosty]

This reply is what I believe. So why be irate on me? I'm looking for people who think straight. Willing to bet anyone? Im will bet my membership here that this one is compose of entirely CGI than realtime. Watch this space. Thank you!

Because what you believe has already been proven to be false too many times to count and yet you still ignorantly cling to it like you would die without some solid reason to bash the PS3's graphics. Everyone here that doesn't want him, put him on the ignore list. It doesn't work well if one does it, but if all do it it is effectively a ban.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I don't understand why everything this generation that's CG has to be a 'target render'. Even when companies never even call it a target render in the first place, TES victims just ASSUME that that's the target render. IT'S PROMOTIONAL MATERIAL! STOP TAKING EVERYTHING LITERALLY!? Last generation Cg was just promotional material, but now if the in game graphics don't look identical to CG material then the company is pulling the wool over our eyes? Act like you got some goddamn sense!!


And you act like the things that are real time don't look great in the first place.
Damn!

[section]

like the things that are real time don't look great in the first place.

Yeah, the trees in my forest don't have enough polygons so they are jagged. And not even anisotrophic filtering. So the trees suck.

;)

They do smell nice and fresh though. Except those fallen ones.

[cpiasminc]

This is really not getting anywhere as long as you guys insist on making the thread about agentorange. I know you all wish him gone, or at least to take the same critical eye to all games instead of exclusively attacking PS3 titles, but crying about that is getting you nowhere fast.

[makeitlookreal]

Then lets move on everyone!

When it comes to target renders I expect game makers to match whatever footage they show the public. If they show a great prerendered trailer then in my opinion they better match it. Now, I am saying this from the point of the consumer because I want the absolute best product for my money. Do I really think that I am going to get a game that matches the target render every single time? Of course not! But by complaining, fussing, and demanding the best (and hopefully many other people doing the same) we can put pressure on game developers to really produce the best games possible.

Yes, I know this pressure is already on them. But the more pressure the better the game will be. Now, I don't mean on a personal level. I don't wish CPI to to work himself to death, have to put in tons of forced overtime, or have a stroke from coding too many levels. But when it comes to the companies as a whole if they have to hire more people, put more money into the game, or whatever they have to do as a consumer I want them to match their target render even if it really was just a cinematic.

I'm demanding. That's the truth. You see, personally I'm easy to get along with and a very nice person. But in the business world I'm going to be polite and respectful but for my dollars as a consumer I'm going to demand the best.

If that means demanding that they clone CPIASMINC and pay each copy $1,000,000 a year to make every game for the PS3 top notch then so be it!

[frosty]

Well, I can agree there. If we all take what is spoon fed to us, there will be no innovation and we won't get the best we can. Also, it is (or should be) illegal to show a trailer that doesn't contain gameplay footage, since it is effectively false advertising. It baits the consumer into thinking they will get an experience way more immersive, when they are delivered something different. I know CPI's stance on this, and that the devs do not make the decisions to show those trailers (the ones devoid of gameplay), it's the publishers that do. But I agree that it has to stop, and it seemingly has backed down a bit since the huge negative outcry over Sony's E3 05' conference.

[makeitlookreal]

That is the absolute truth Frosty!

Of course I don't want such cinematic trailers to be made illegal if they don't have a disclaimer. What I want is for the gaming industry to set a voluntary standard that if footage is not *real-time* and in-game that they use a disclamer.

If this practice was started I think game developers and publishers would STOP using cinematics for advertisements and start using real time footage.

What we need is for a new mindset in the game development community. We need them to start trying to see who can produce the best product in REAL TIME and not who can produce the best PRERENDERED footage.

I also totally agree that if we blindly accept whatever they produce that we are not going to see top notch graphics.

[frosty]

The same way that on a best buy commercial, they have to put in fine print "TV images simulated" when they advertise TV's. This is because it is impossible for a video camera to capture a high quality image on the TV, so they fake it to make the TV look better. But, they have to tell you the image is simulated. Same should apply to gaming.

[makeitlookreal]

That makes sense Frosty. I'm just against new government regulations and laws. I want such a thing to be required but in a voluntary sort of way.

[frosty]

Lol, then it wouldn't be required, but recommended, and nobody would follow it. It's a neccessary evil man.

[makeitlookreal]

They would follow it if enough of us got together and made a big enough issue about it. That's the reason we consumers get screwed like that. We don't unite together and demand developers don't do stuff like that.

[frosty]

Once again, it is NOT the developers. CPI has stated that himself.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

My opinon is, I just think people should use their brain and be able to distinguish between CG and a game, and stop being retarded. I understand that gap is closing every generation, but just be sensible about it. And no I don't mean roll over and take garbage looking or playing games, all I mean is use your damn brain and don't be surprised or down right offended when all the games don't look as complex and realistic as PROMOTIONAL material. Shit, no one complained about this in the PSone and PS2 era. But that's just me!

[frosty]

So you enjoy seeing commercials for games (like call of duty 2 on 360) that show absolutley no gameplay footage and rely on wowing the consumer with bullshit pre-rendered footage all over TV? I don't. It's false advertising. If I am going to buy a game, I'd like to see what it looks like in action on it's ad. But that's just me.

[makeitlookreal]

That is well said Frosty!

The publishers need to realize that we don't like being misled. If they want to produce all kinds of great cinematic trailers that are prerendered then that is fine. But they need to TELL US what they are showing instead of trying to get sales by "wowing" people into thinking a game is amazing when really it's not nearly that good looking.

When it comes to Lair I hope they will clearly say that everything they show us from this point on is indeed real-time. If they do show us a pre-rendered clip then they need to tell us clearly which parts are prerendered and which parts are real time.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

You make it sound as if video games are the only commercials that overembellish what the product is capable of. I'm pretty apathetic to commercials actually. I read about games I'm interested in. Cuz even if the graphics are up to the commercial shown, what if it plays like crap? Consumers should use some common-F*cking sense is all I'm saying. Put some gameplay footage in there,yes, but people act soooo surprised when the game isn't as intuitive as.. watching it on tv and they get all bent out of shape. You know damn well what that machine you got is capable of, stop being so surprised. It's ridiculous to me. I enjoy great games, great looking games as much as the next person, but I'm not holding every publisher at gun point about it, I just read some reviews and buy or dont' buy the game.

I'm not saying they shouldn't do what you're suggesting (saying, "in game footage" or "computer generated scene" during certain clips, that's a great idea) I just think people shouldn't have been so gullible in the first place. I saw those WW2 game commercials and immediately knew to myself, "hell no the game doesn't look like that."

[frosty]

All I'm getting at is those who do overembellish their products are forced by law to state it so. The TV example I gave fits right in here. If they have to say their image is simulated, why don't game publishers?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I'm not saying they shouldn't do what you're suggesting (saying, "in game footage" or "computer generated scene" during certain clips, that's a great idea) I just think people shouldn't have been so gullible in the first place. I saw those WW2 game commercials and immediately knew to myself, "hell no the game doesn't look like that."

[Jasonps3]

Like fast food resturant commercials! It looks so tempting on commercials until you eat it and hated it.

[frosty]

lol, sry lali, I'm a bit drunk and didn't read the last paragraph. So we agree.

[Jasonps3]

lol, sry lali, I'm a bit drunk and didn't read the last paragraph. So we agree.

What does you avatar look like right now, LOL!

[frosty]

ask me that when I'm on acid.

[Jasonps3]

ask me that when I'm on acid.

Deal!

[TEEDA]

new details from Famitsu it seems :

Famitsu also reveals that Lair will feature, in addition to intense air battles, ground-based combat
While details haven't been revealed, the combat reportedly looks like Square Enix's Drakengard

[yoshaw]

Thanks for the headsup man. I seriously need a fresh dose of PS3 news to come out of the negative trance the delay caused me. Thanks!

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Looks like this game will be, in some ways, what Drakengard should have been, but couldn't because it was a steaming pile of mediocrity.

[NeoPlayStation]

Lair to Support Tilt Controls (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/730/730816p1.html)

September 6, 2006 - Warhawk is no longer alone in its support of the new functionality built into Sony's PlayStation 3 controller. According to the latest issue of Famitsu, the kids over at Factor 5 are working on making Lair compatible with the controller as well. The controller's tilt-sensors will be used to directly control your dragon, the magazine reports, without going into specifics.

[agentorange]

Just reviving this topic too see whose laughing now.

[VG Aficionado]

Just reviving this topic too see whose laughing now.Now you're behaving like a troll. Even though that's not different from your behaviour before today.

[agentorange]

Im just so pissed on how sony treat us. Im sick and tired of being a die hard fanboy. Alot of sad Europeans and also alot of broken promised always. Kutaragi and Hira needs to do harakire.

IM SO ANGRY AND YOU CAN FEEL IT

[VG Aficionado]

Im just so pissed on how sony treat us. Im sick and tired of being a die hard fanboy. Alot of sad Europeans and also alot of broken promised always. Kutaragi and Hira needs to do harakire.

IM SO ANGRY AND YOU CAN FEEL ITI don't give a damn whether you're angry or not.

And it's spelt "harakiri", you fool! :duh:

[rog27]

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss02.jpg

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss04.jpg

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss01.jpg

Looks pretty good to me.

[frosty]

Finally, higher res shots. notice the life bar in that first one... that other had to be an early render.

[Voidler]

Hopefully they have a long way to go. That's awful.

[EvilTaru]

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss02.jpg

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss04.jpg

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss01.jpg

Looks pretty good to me.

Those are awesome. +rep

[agentorange]

they got this from the official sony website in japan

[ddaryl]

Im just so pissed on how sony treat us. Im sick and tired of being a die hard fanboy. Alot of sad Europeans and also alot of broken promised always. Kutaragi and Hira needs to do harakire.

IM SO ANGRY AND YOU CAN FEEL IT


You need to wake up and realize Sony promised nothing. They produced targets for what they believed they could produce. Every industry produces target numbers and many of them miss them for many different reasons.

The PS3 is a beast of a machine with a tremendous amouts of complicated parts. One part is slow in the making and it effects everything.

As for you screenshot crusade, you are being a huge fool. You hang onto everything as it is gospel and not going to get better or be worked out, and that's just laughable. You've ignored the screens that came out for Resistance, and you've downplayed motorstorm for whatever reason.

Personally I've seen enough from a couple of games to completely believe Sony's devs will hit every mark they made.

Who's laughing now you ask... We are, and it's at you.

[VG Aficionado]

You need to wake up and realize Sony promised nothing. They produced targets for what they believed they could produce. Every industry produces target numbers and many of them miss them for many different reasons.

The PS3 is a beast of a machine with a tremendous amouts of complicated parts. One part is slow in the making and it effects everything.

As for you screenshot crusade, you are being a huge fool. You hang onto everything as it is gospel and not going to get better or be worked out, and that's just laughable. You've ignored the screens that came out for Resistance, and you've downplayed motorstorm for whatever reason.

Personally I've seen enough from a couple of games to completely believe Sony's devs will hit every mark they made.

Who's laughing now you ask... We are, and it's at you.Seconded.

[overclocked]

All games already are at their render state or above so i dont get the constant whining about the games and software when its the freaking hardware thats MIA and delayed.

[Rubbernek]

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3174/lairez8.jpg

[curryking1]

The picture with the dragon flying over the water is stunning!

[RavenFox]

Damn amzing stuff fellas