Can the Playstation 3 use flash memory to improve performance?

[gablar16]

I was reading this (http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9002563) article, that talks about how flash memory usage has doubled in two years, thus beating moore's law, and how the trend continue to grow. By the end of the year, 16 GB are in sight. If this (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/category/category_slc.asp?Recs=10&Nav=|c:1995|&Sort=1) trend continues, a hard drive will be almost innecesary for the playstation 3. Further in the article it states that Windows Vista will be able to increase performance (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/features/foreveryone/performance.mspx) by using thumb drives. Can the PS3 take advantage of a technology similar to MS Vista?

[xbdestroya]

Well, I would say it's possible that future iterations of the PS3 will use low(ish) sized solid state 'hard' drives in order to reduce costs going forward. Maybe by 2008/2009 we see 'base' PS3's shipping with solid-state hard drives in the 8GB range. It'll get the job done as far as having it in there as required, and free Sony from the yoke of mechanical drive inclusion, while allowing for upgrades via such.

[makeitlookreal]

It has already been revealed that the PS3 is going to have a large flash drive to probably store information about the OS and other functions. Here is a quote from the Microsoft's website about how their flash memory will be able to increase performance.

Windows ReadyBoost
Adding system memory (RAM) is often the best way to improve your PC's performance. More memory means applications can run without needing to access the hard drive. However, upgrading memory is not always easy. You need to know what type of memory you need, purchase the memory, and open your computer to install the memory—which sometimes can invalidate your support agreement. Also, some machines have limited memory expansion capabilities, preventing you from adding RAM even if you are willing to do so.

Windows Vista introduces a new concept in adding memory to a system. Windows ReadyBoost lets users use a removable flash memory device, such as a USB thumb drive, to improve system performance without opening the box. Windows ReadyBoost can improve system performance because it can retrieve data kept on the flash memory more quickly than it can retrieve data kept on the hard disk, decreasing the time you need to wait for your PC to respond. Combined with SuperFetch technology, this can help drive impressive improvements in system responsiveness.

Windows ReadyBoost technology is reliable and provides protection of the data stored on your device. You can remove the memory device at any time without any loss of data or negative impact to the system; however, if you remove the device, your performance returns to the level you experienced without the device. Additionally, data on the removable memory device is encrypted to help prevent inappropriate access to data when the device is removed.


Now, flash memory is fairly cheap and the PS3 could have a very large flash drive MUCH larger than the 96 megabytes for the OS. Lets say that Sony needs 200 megabytes for their purposes. I a 512MB flash card would still give them over 300MB to work with!

What do all of you think about this possibility? Could the PS3's flash drive increase performance?

[frosty]

Well, it does have 4 usb ports anda flash card reader, but you have to keep in mind that game developers will only take advantage of what they can depend on being in every console. But, if they programmed a game that exceeded the systems memory requirements they could always include a stick with the game...

Is this plausable CPI?

[makeitlookreal]

No, seriously. A while back it was revealed that every single PS3 would have built in flash memory. I will have to go look for the reference, but it was strait from Sony. They did not give out specific information, but every PS3 will have flash memory built in.

[frosty]

I'm also referring to being able to upgrade the memory via external ports.

[cpiasminc]

I think it's a little overblown. The world record for fastest throughput from a Flash device is 40 MB/sec (read only, write is almost always half as fast)... and that's more than you'll anyway get out of a thumbdrive because USB 2.0 won't give you that much out of one device. A perfectly average hard drive makes about 30 MB/sec (both read and write in similar ranges), with very special ones getting all the way up to quadruple that.

About the only thing is that hard drives are sensitive to issues like fragmentation and the like, while flash is not.

Flash is always a good place for storing firmware and the OS because it's solid-state and non-volatile and cannot be so easily accessed or overwritten depending on how the chipset connections are designed. Not to say that no one will do it, though ;).

[Sephiroth_VII]

KK did talk about upgrading the PS3's RAM, I remember that. Who says that you can't use a USB-key for that purpose? And I think that I vaguely remember what milr is talking about, but I can't remember who said it.

[venomv]

I remember it too, but not it being official.....

[cpiasminc]

KK did talk about upgrading the PS3's RAM, I remember that. Who says that you can't use a USB-key for that purpose?
Physically speaking, there's nothing stopping you, but it's rather a pointless effort since it'll never be able to keep up. USB 2.0's theoretical maximum throughput is only 480 Mbits/sec. The GDDR-3's throughput limit is ~370x greater than that, while the XDR's is ~425x greater... and in real life, the two of them put together will still be a limiting factor -- what we really need is somewhere about 20x greater than that (I know such a thing won't even exist within this decade, but I'm talking more hypothetical). What the devil good is a USB key going to do?

[makeitlookreal]

I am certain that it was officially admitted to by someone inside of Sony. I'm just not certain who it was at this point in time, and can't seem to find the reference.

I like the wink CPI!

Maybe if nothing else this will help with the streaming aspect of the PS3. Along with streaming data from the HDD and the Blu-Ray you would be able to stream some data from the Flash Memory.

Perhaps if the flash memory is the fastest you could put the most critical data there.

However, no ammount of streaming is going to be a substitute for actual real RAM.

[xbdestroya]

I really think that future cost-reduction compared to magnetic drives will be the only novel way in which Flash might supplant a traditional HDD.

As it stands now, we already expect onboard Flash for certain purposes (and the OS itself it's rumored, yeah?) If they want to put enough of it on there for state-saves, well I mean I don't think it'd be a big deal either way; certainly cheap enough, but are the benefits themselves worth it?

I don't imagine they would do any external state-storage though like that Vista thing alludes to; it's just too much of a hassle.

Either way I wouldn't expect any of what's being discussed here to factor into improved gameplay.

[cpiasminc]

I like the wink CPI!
???
I'm.... glad... you approve. Confused as to why, but whatever... If the point wasn't clear, I was referring to hackers and modchippers and such. Someone will surely come along at some point.

Perhaps if the flash memory is the fastest you could put the most critical data there.
That's just the problem. Flash isn't very fast at all -- faster than Bluray, but at best about even with a hard drive, and that too, only when reading. And larger flash is typically slower (though the definition of "large" is ever increasing).

I don't imagine they would do any external state-storage though like that Vista thing alludes to; it's just too much of a hassle.
I also remain quite the Doubting Thomas that thumbdrives will speed things up for Vista. The grounds of the claim is a little too paper-thin to me, and it just sounds as though they're hiding that it would utterly suck without it (and an improvement relative to total suckage is not a major achievement).

I can believe that it will save power, though... a moderate size block of Flash used as a cache can be pretty effective. Though it begs the question -- Flash has its read/write utilization limits, which for most purposes is rather overblown as limits go, but as a hard disk cache, I have to wonder. It isn't that unlikely to see hundreds of operations in a short time span.

[makeitlookreal]

I found the reference to the flash memory in the PS3.

http://www.gametab.com/news/589491/

The PS3 comes equipped with, in addition to a default hard disk, a "large amount of flash memory," the magazine reveals. This is used to house the operating system and all future system updates. Based on the wording in the magazine, it seems that the hard disk is to be used exclusively for multimedia content and will not contain any system features; users will, after all, be able to swap the built in hard drive out with any standard drive they pick up at a computer hardware store.

CPI, do you think that having a completely unique and seperate location for the OS could help cut down or save on the memory footprint in the actual RAM?

[xbdestroya]

The OS will still need to load into RAM when actually 'working,' so it won't diminish RAM utilization.

[cpiasminc]

You also can't really use Flash memory that way. It's not designed for rapid read/write/erase access nor is it fast enough to support any realtime active software. You're talking about throughput rates several hundreds times slower than any current-generation DRAM architecture, while also having latencies many tens of thousands of times slower.

You're assuming that because it's solid state memory, it must be fast, and nothing could be further from the truth.

[Hrama]

Hmmm yeah I can understand that. Flash memory is actually pretty damn slow in relative terms to everything else in the PS3. Like CPI said, it is static and doesn't fragment like a harddrive. Its ok for loading some VERY small software off of it. Like Cisco routers can use it to store the IOS software on it I believe. of course it retains its info even when no power is present so that is always a plus I guess if you needed to keep information that way. In this specific instance though, probably not exceptionally useful.

[GodMachine_Iridius_Dio]

It wouldn't really enhance performance any at all. You could use it for streaming data in the same way you use a HDD to stream data now, but you couldn't use it for any good form of RAM, it's just far too slow.

So that's basically the only application it'd serve any purpose as: A small flash-based HDD for game saves, streaming, etc.

I think the primary allure to the idea though is instantly being able to upgrade your RAM, very cheaply and very quickly/easily (which, like this, you can't), but really you don't need to. These things will have plenty of RAM as it is, and for what it's not adequate for, devs will work around. They always do. Some may call this a flaw, but everything has limits, and once it's set, you deal with it. In another five years, people will still scoff at the paltry four gigs of RAM in PS4 and the slooooow 300 Gigabytes per second that it affords, as an example.

Later

Dio

[Smokey]

In another five years, people will still scoff at the paltry four gigs of RAM in PS4 and the slooooow 300 Gigabytes per second that it affords, as an example.
very true people just aint never happy :)

[gablar16]

Thanks for the replies. they seem to agree with my guess that the speed is the real limitation of USB drives. The article also mentions that some of the high end Thumb drives have microchips in them that could allow, in the not too distant future, to launch small applications like your own windows desktop, or firefox. This is very exiting I think because the chips will follow moore's law, in a couple of years they should have a somewhat decent amount of computing power in addition to their storage capacity. Of course all that power is useless without the killer app that will take full advantage of it, in ways thet we can't imagine yet.

Right now I just cant think of any great applications for this technology, but it seems like any application will have one major limitation, the speed of the USB port. Question, assuming a reasonably fast processor inside the USB drive, can compresion techniques permit launch of applications from the thumb drive? How can compresion help the implementation of this apps?
I think there is a huge potential for USB drives in the future of electronics including the PS3.