Lair

[ddaryl]

http://watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20060908/lair03.jpg

http://watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20060908/lair04.jpg

http://watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20060908/lair05.jpg

[LaLiLuLeLo]

A stamina meter?!!! :Rage:

[frosty]

first shot looks like shit, other two are awesome.

[Viper]

Whoa, that top pic looks like a PS2 screenshot, WTF?

[Jasonps3]

MAN, you guys are obsessed with graphics, DAMM!

[LaLiLuLeLo]

yeah why does the first pic look like....ps2 on a 3d accelerator?
Well jason it's the only thing we have to go on at this point, and we recall this game's real time screenshots looking significantly better than that big first one. It's not even the same game, looks like.

[frosty]

^I'm guessing an early build - shaders.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

It must be. doesn't even compare to the other pictures we've seen- including the 2 below it.

[ddaryl]

Relax people, just look at what some polish time did for Resistance.

Lair isn't a launch game so its got lots of time to be worked on. The lighting looks darker then some of the earlier screens

I have no problems with what I'm seeing, as I expect them to look better in motion and in shots with better lighting.

[makeitlookreal]

Please, please, please do not tell me that the first shot is really what Lair is going to look like.

If the game turns out to look like that first image then this is the worst example of hyping a game with fake assets and then releasing a real-time version that looks totally different and MUCH weaker.

Of course I think it's too early to judge anything. But if that is the final version then ARRRGGGG!

Motorstorm has done a better job reaching their target render!

Heavenly Sword has done a better job reaching their target render!

Resistance has done a better job reaching their target render!

MGS4 looks great without a target render!

IF this is truly what Lair is going to look like (again we might be TOTALLY WRONG and I admit that) I'm one disapointed camper!!!

That just looks like too big of a downgrade. TOO big. It cannot be an image from Lair. It simply can't!

EDIT: That first image needs more than polish. It need someone to get a grinder with the roughest grit sandpaper and blast it like crazy, grind it down, throw on a brand new primer, and give it five layers of paint.

[Viper]

Jason, DDAryl, we're knocking on it because all the previous shots looked far, far better. I'm not a graphics whore and this is dissapointing.

Wii version perhaps?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I'm with MILR (although not as excitedly), that's not even the same game. But look at the 2nd and 3rd shot, they're top notch. So what's even the deal with the first one?

[makeitlookreal]

Now, this is what Lair is supposed to look like in real time.

We CANNOT be talking about the same game.

http://watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20060908/lair02.jpg

[frosty]

^It's the 50Mhz RSX downgrade!!! lol

[Nameless]

I never expected the game to look like the initial trailers, but that's just me...
Perhaps the pics are upscaled resulting in poor image quality.

There's always TGS and hopefully we will see some gameplay footage.

[MAdThor]

Screens are from Watch.Impress (http://216.109.124.98/language/translatedPage?lp=ja_en&.intl=fr&tt=url&text=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fgame%2 fdocs%2f20060908%2flair.htm)

[LaLiLuLeLo]

There has to be a perfectly good explanation for it, because last year we saw a trailer that said, 'the following is comprised of in game footage' that look incredible. Even if the graphics stayed at that level of detail it was still amazing. There's no way it just regressed over time to the point of looking like a 7th generation game. It must be from an early ass build or a different platform(??).

[ddaryl]

look at the lighting differences for one.

Just give the game time and stop expecting everything to instantly be the end all.

[Viper]

Upscaling can't kill the textures that bad, can it?

[makeitlookreal]

No, it looks like that first image (the other two are so low resolution it's not fair to use them in this estimate) are from a virus ridden PS3 dev-kit stuck at 1.2GHZ for CELL and 100MHZ for the RSX with only 128MB of memory for each.

EDIT: I can't get over how awful that first image looks. I admit that I'm what many people call a graphic whore, and I'm proud to be one. However, that is the FIRST PS3 screenshot in a LONG time that has had me back up and sigh in disgust.

[Viper]

It can't be the resolution it's set at as I'm counting polygons in it.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

IF it was upscaled the picture would just be really pixelated and/or blurry. That's just really really weak graphics. DDaryl, it's not that we expect it to be amazing graphics from the start, the game's been worked on since at least last year, and the videos and pictures up until this one have all been incredible looking, and confirmed as realtime. this is just fucking bizarre.

[MaceSin]

The first pic must be a Dreamcast shot.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

The first pic must be a Dreamcast shot.

it's the only plausible explanation.:buldge:

ho ho...this thread is exploding in record time.

[BruceWayneIII]

Well, maybe it's because the game is supposed to feature a ton of on-screen dragons and "Helms Deep"-battles with an equal amount of soldiers.

Maybe we are just looking at an LOD-type of image? I don't know, except that there is plenty of time before the game ships.

[frosty]

as I said, from an early build. The other real time shots blow it out of the water, so it's rather obvious.

[makeitlookreal]

Are we sure that is actually a NEW screenshot and not one that was released a long time ago but was only found recently?

[saxdawg00]

I have no doubt in my mind that this game and Killzone PS3 is gonna punch everyone's next-gen balls off. Besides do we even know the context of the pictures? You know, like these are previously unreleased screenshots from earlier development or screen captures from the first development kit or something along those lines.

[Siraris]

Um... I think the first screenshot looks very impressive. The polygon counts are obviously very high, the shaders look fantastic, all around impressive. The sky and that weird fireball thing look odd, but I wouldn't say it looks anywhere near PS2 quality. I'm guessing that it's just the way the shot was taken.

Not only that, but screenshots have never, and will never reflect the visual quality of a game. And Viper: upscaling an image and compressing it to JPEG can degrade the quality A LOT. I am an amateur photographer and shoot with a Nikon D70s digital SLR at 3000x2000 RAW format. Compressing to JPEG, even at the highest quality, gives a noticeable hit to quality.

You all know that Lair is going to be SICK in the graphics department, so don't get all your panties in a wad until E3, when I'm sure you'll be having wet dreams galore over what you see.

[masteratt]

I wouldn't be surprised if some Xbot Photshopped that first pic to look that bad so he can put it on his ps3suxorzz.tr site.

[Nameless]

It better be an early shot, because if the first pic is the primary gameplay someone needs to be slapped... :rant:

[Jasonps3]

Sorry guys, It just sometimes I cannot stand this kinda reaction to just screenshots (especially the ones that are in motion). Every single time we have screenshots of a game here is always been "It looks like PS2 graphics" or "It doesn't impress me", and when the game is in motion, we change a different toon about it. I don't know, maybe I'm overdoing it a bit.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

The HUD isn't even the same at all, and even it looks like a placeholder (from the most recent screens). It must be from an early build. Jasonps3 I'd be right along side you 99% of the time but that's does not look consistent with anything we've been seeing from Lair in the past year.


Siraris are we looking at the same thing?

[rob the slob]

Holy sh*t, that is garbage.

Target renders FTL. It was all a lie.

[makeitlookreal]

This screenshot is really, really bad. The first one is the one I am talking about. The other two are so small you can't really make out much. However, the first one simply does not look like anything we have seen so far from this game. It has to be from a very, very early build.

[Viano]

people don't get too over reacted, jp site never use the most updated pictures because they never judge from those pics and just wanna show some game related pics that's all

[ddaryl]

Look at the recent Motorstorm and Resistance shots

I think we're looking at an early build. A build where the devs haven't offloaded much of the code to the SPU's.

[Pistolero]

Holy sh*t, that is garbage.

Target renders FTL. It was all a lie.


Don't jump on conclusions. The game will be shown at TGS most probably. I refuse even to consider the possiblity of Factor5 lagging that far behind...Koei...Must be some very old build !

[Nameless]

Holy sh*t, that is garbage.

Target renders FTL. It was all a lie.
I have reviewed every post by this guy and he is difinately trolling the site.
He has posted 17 times and not one post was a positive word regarding the PS3... I just don't get the point of posting on a forum just to cause shit...

[frosty]

lair has never shown a target render.

[Viano]

Holy sh*t, that is garbage.

Target renders FTL. It was all a lie.


well, it's called Liar loL

[ddaryl]

The buzz over at another PS3 forum says the 1st pic is in fact old and the 2 smaller pics are newer

[Illmatic]

The buzz over at another PS3 forum says the 1st pic is in fact old and the 2 smaller pics are newer


They'd be right. The first screen was featured in a mag quite a while ago (i'm talking months), i think it was Game Informer.

[agentorange]

I told you so that the previous lair vid are all CGI now believe me after seeing that pic that looks like a SNES era. Oh my sony always makes my day bad. NoW EVERYONE BELIEVE ME AFTER THE DEBATE ABOUT LAIR?

Also the motorstorm pics are to small to be judge. But using common sense it is really impossible to achieve in realtime that third video of lair.its too clean and crisp

[masteratt]

How are you still not banned from this section?

If Sony makes your day bad- STOP COMING HERE

[Pistolero]

No. It was real time. Sorry...

[frosty]

And that's why a dev on these boards confirmed that at least some of the footage in that trailer could be done in realtime? No, you are wrong. As usual.

[CreativeWriter]

I'm hoping game play is significantly different from Drakengard. I was so excited for that game, it being Square-Enix and Dragons, but I quit a few hours in and have never finished it. Poor controls, repetitive battles, etc... I like this notion of affecting a larger, AI-controlled RTS. Dynasty Warriors in the sky... and on dragons.

Yeah, the pic is rough. We'll see better at TGS. There's just an air of negativity here at the moment. It'll pass. It passed after E3 and the price announcement. I'm betting TGS is a big hit for Sony... at least, it needs to be.

[ddaryl]

I told you so that the previous lair vid are all CGI now believe me after seeing that pic that looks like a SNES era. Oh my sony always makes my day bad. NoW EVERYONE BELIEVE ME AFTER THE DEBATE ABOUT LAIR?

Also the motorstorm pics are to small to be judge. But using common sense it is really impossible to achieve in realtime that third video of lair.its too clean and crisp

LMAO

may I suggest looking at the latest Resistance Shots, then tell me what you believe

[rob the slob]

I have reviewed every post by this guy and he is difinately trolling the site.
He has posted 17 times and not one post was a positive word regarding the PS3... I just don't get the point of posting on a forum just to cause shit...
Nah, I just tell it like it is. Those screens look horrible. Hopefully the game improves alot.

[agentorange]

Holy crap why are you people dont know how to critisize? That pic looks like SNES are and still defensive? I give up. I debated this a long time ago and no one believes me and now the proof is nout still no ones believes me and blinded by fanboyism.

About killzone 2 in the past I was correct. About Lair im correct again next is eight days.

[frosty]

You are taking one picture, that easily could be from an early build of the game, and holding it against every other picture that is confirmed to be real time.

[VG Aficionado]

I thought agentorange was going to leave the forums.

http://forums.e-mpire.com/showpost.php?p=1223478&postcount=59

Oh my IIM SO ANGRY AGAIN I WILL BE GONE AGAIN. Damn sony I wasted my savings to nothing.Because Sony is so evil that they took all his money away when he bought his PS3.

Hey, wait a minute...

[agentorange]

Go to this link http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=60437&page=1 especially to this pages http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=60437&page=4 and http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=60437&page=6 just look at the quality of those pics compared to the new ones. "Picture paints a thousand words" I dont need to judge it you can clearly see it.

Also look how many of you are so defensive and talkative and now are so silent about it. I love this quote from the movie of Ten commandments "Hear laughter?"

[frosty]

14 more days until we don't have to put up with these trolls anymore.

[rog27]

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss02.jpg

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss04.jpg

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss01.jpg

Looks pretty damn good to me.

[EvilTaru]

Those are nice, especially the middle one, great lighting.

[agentorange]

those looks good but how about the crap pic sometime ago is that real or fake? By the way i hope this Devs of lair do well since they even trash talk about there game will be beter than Oblivion 4

[VG Aficionado]

A game that looks better than Oblivion is never too meritable ;)

[agentorange]

here is the sony website of ps3 games http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/list_pre.html

[ddaryl]

It's still an obvious work in progress. Lighting and texture work is needed, but again it's an incomplete game that wasn't due to come out till next year.

[agentorange]

Okay is it confirmed that the first ugly pic is from an old build? Hey they said its a launch game

[ddaryl]

Okay is it confirmed that the first ugly pic is from an old build? Hey they said its a launch game


they revised that I do believe to spring 2007

[VG Aficionado]

Okay is it confirmed that the first ugly pic is from an old build? Hey they said its a launch gameAnd who are "they"? Because I haven't read an official announcement anywhere, so that's just a rumour for me.

[section]

AFAIK it's been only mentioned as a launch title in those Gamestop (or was it some other chain?) release schedule sheets and in some cases they are as much speculation as what we know.

The ugly picture is actually on their Japanese site (http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/)... But I think their PR people have again lost their marbles, 'cause the other released 3 ingame engine pics are on a whole different level graphically.

[agentorange]

Its always listed as a launch game. I hope that ugly pic is from an early build.

[VG Aficionado]

Its always listed as a launch game. I hope that ugly pic is from an early build.Always listed where? Because there's no official site listing it as a launch title.

[agentorange]

by the way if that ugly pic is from an old build then why is it included in the newly updated Lair website in http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/

Id they have common sense that its from an old build they should have not included it and its so ugly. Just an observation.

[Illmatic]

by the way if that ugly pic is from an old build then why is it included in the newly updated Lair website in http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/

Id they have common sense that its from an old build they should have not included it and its so ugly. Just an observation.

Well the main pic there is from March, so....http://forums.e-mpire.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

[ddaryl]

by the way if that ugly pic is from an old build then why is it included in the newly updated Lair website in http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/

Id they have common sense that its from an old build they should have not included it and its so ugly. Just an observation.

Maybe its not from an older build. Maybe its from a level that hasn't received its polish yet. They could just be showing off in air Dragon battles so people get a better idea of the game.

you jump on the negativity bandwagon way too much and way too early. I'm sure we will see much more in the next couple weeks, but looking at a few games things are starting to look just fine.

[Illmatic]

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss04.jpg


Yummy! :smirk:

Keep in mind, there's a whole lot we don't know about this game. I have a feeling it's scale is massive, so keep that in mind when complaining about the 1 ugly pic we've seen.

I mean, look at how many people and dragons are in this screen, and also the devs have talked about a scale larger than Oblivion.

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss01.jpg

a screen i haven't seen.

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss02.jpg

[section]

And you actually do breathe flame which seems to look awfully nice :)

Now I want some ice dragons there too. Please. Pity.

[agentorange]

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss04.jpg


Yummy! :smirk:

Keep in mind, there's a whole lot we don't know about this game. I have a feeling it's scale is massive, so keep that in mind when complaining about the 1 ugly pic we've seen.

I mean, look at how many people and dragons are in this screen, and also the devs have talked about a scale larger than Oblivion.

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss01.jpg

a screen i haven't seen.

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss02.jpg

Lets hope its not just arrogance since they said they will have better drawn distance and folliage effects and textures than Oblivion. Not to mention the rumored 1080p and use of tilt function with lots of innovbation.; i hope this game is not a launch game but should be next year to make it better. Maybee a launch game in Europe to make them happy with online functions

[Rubbernek]

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3174/lairez8.jpg

[ddaryl]

You should mention that the above pic is doctored by someone at the GAF forums

[Illmatic]

You should mention that the above pic is doctored by someone at the GAF forums

Only the brightness, so you can see the detail in the model better, and it looks to be the same model ;)

[yoshaw]

Looks gorgeous! No doubt about it, haters like agentorange need to STFU!

[Fats]

^Word to that.

What's the purpose of his existence on this forum?

[Undercover Cop]

Ehhh, gonna keep my fingers crossed for this game - I was really into it. I'm not sure why that site would take pics that look week, cause even at GDC the demos were looking great (see vids on youtube).

I'd hate for this to be a downgrade, cause that would mean too many established devs lying (Factor 5, Silicon Knights) and many young dedvs embarrasing them (Ninja Theory).

[Pumpkin Head]

You guys must be blind.. This game looks amazing considering they have more time to work it out..

[Fazares]

hmmm...no one can doubt lair gfx prowess....specially,after they demonstred the tgs 2005 trailer was real time...at this year gdc if i m not wrong...

[Voidler]

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss01.jpg

This screen makes me think it's early. Lack of lighting, poor fire effects and the fact that every NPC looks the same and are all in straight rows (they could atleast EASILY have some routines to make them run their own path). I think at TGS, it'll look alot better. I hope.

[Undercover Cop]

hmmm...no one can doubt lair gfx prowess....specially,after they demonstred the tgs 2005 trailer was real time...at this year gdc if i m not wrong...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgW81km74lk

Here's the GDC demonstration 6 months ago - yeah it looks great.

But why would a website suddenly put up "old" screenshots when even the build shown half a year ago was much more spectacular?

Unless of course that "realtime demonstration" was just that - a demonstration. Maybe reality has set in for the devs when they actually sat down to make it. I'd hate to think it, but the evidence points towards a real severe downgrade.

Lair was one of the premiere games to show off the power of the PS3, meant to show you that your $500-$600 was a good investment because it can pull off things nothing else can. You'd think "old screens" would have been buried by now in a vault as they would have had new stuff to show, right? There's no reason for ANY "old screen" to be released at this point. If this turned out to be a lie after all this time... then there's NO "realtime vid demonstration" we can trust, since they apparently amount to prerendered trailers that amount to nothing CLOSE to what gamers will actually experience.

[Undercover Cop]

Even game devs at beyond3d.com are put off by this. It's not a matter of "work in progress"... not after a year and a half of development.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33483

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/7/11/122892/lair_fire_01a.gif
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/7/11/122892/lair_sky_01a.gif
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/7/11/122892/lair_grab_01a.gif

Goodbye CG level ingame graphics (until at least the NEXT iteration of consoles).
Hello LOWERED EXPECTATIONS.

[Applefiend]

Actually I'm sure it'll exceed my expectations which are "Rogue Squadron with Dragons".

http://watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20060908/lair03.jpg
Uh oh.... :(

[RavenFox]

Even game devs at beyond3d.com are put off by this. It's not a matter of "work in progress"... not after a year and a half of development.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33483



Goodbye CG level ingame graphics (until at least the NEXT iteration of consoles).
Hello LOWERED EXPECTATIONS.
My God who is this troll? No way are the guys being [put] off. They are using reason and logic which entails a good discussion. Its being said to wait for TGS. Plus the build on the first pic is old and being described as a placeholder of sort. Pick up your hate and take it with you please.

[Undercover Cop]

My God who is this troll? No way are the guys being [put] off. They are using reason and logic which entails a good discussion. Its being said to wait for TGS. Plus the build on the first pic is old and being described as a placeholder of sort. Pick up your hate and take it with you please.
Again no one has explained why a company would deliberately use an "old" pic when they could have taken screenshots from their "actual game demonstrations" from 6 MONTHS AGO (GDC). Unless of course this is the reality of the game we're actually gonna play and NOT an enclosed demo that has as much worth as a prerendered cut since it is HIGHLY not representative of the actual gmeplay.

I mean seriously, they are using it on their OFFICIAL WEBSITE!

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/

Why on earth are they using an "old" pic from a game that has been in development for at least 1 1/2 years with "realtime demos" backing it up for the last year? Come on man..

[Voidler]

They were using pre-E3 screens for Heavenly Sword on the websites, even though Heavenly Sword looked monumentally better in the E3 build. Infact they're even using those pics now on the recently launched Euro website

http://eu.playstation.com/ps3/index.html?locale=en_GB

[dnpmakkah]

I think the game actually looks pretty good. The dragon design from the image where it is flying over the water looks just like the demo video. Lets see it in motion before we judge.

Although I will agree that the first picture is kind of stale but 2 out of 3 aint bad.

[BruceWayneIII]

Again no one has explained why a company would deliberately use an "old" pic when they could have taken screenshots from their "actual game demonstrations" from 6 MONTHS AGO (GDC). Unless of course this is the reality of the game we're actually gonna play and NOT an enclosed demo that has as much worth as a prerendered cut since it is HIGHLY not representative of the actual gmeplay.

I mean seriously, they are using it on their OFFICIAL WEBSITE!

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/

Why on earth are they using an "old" pic from a game that has been in development for at least 1 1/2 years with "realtime demos" backing it up for the last year? Come on man..

Bigger leaps in quality are easier to see for average Joe and makes it easier to play your cards close to launch. If you're play all your cards as quick as possible, you're out of surprise attacks later.

[overclocked]

1.Dont se anything wrong with that pic beside its contains much of the same color. Over dramatizing.
2.Undercover Cop i would want you to be permanently banned from the PS3 forums if you continue flaming with zero knowledge. The same goes to another 2 or 3 posters getting on everybody's nerves..

The best for this forum right now would be cleaning out alot of dirt or clowns.

[makeitlookreal]

This picture looks awful in my opinion. Has anyone found out for certain if it is from an earlier build or has been doctored in some way?

The other screenshots look better (to varying degrees) but this one looks very sad.

http://watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20060908/lair03.jpg

[Nameless]

1.Dont se anything wrong with that pic beside its contains much of the same color. Over dramatizing.
2.Undercover Cop i would want you to be permanently banned from the PS3 forums if you continue flaming with zero knowledge. The same goes to another 2 or 3 posters getting on everybody's nerves..

The best for this forum right now would be cleaning out alot of dirt or clowns.
Agreed... I have noticed a few new members that are only posting negative news regarding the PS3. I just think they are here to start shit... :guns:
(I can provide names if needed!)

[Applefiend]

Yup, MILR, it looks awful, but it gives clues to the gameplay.. Stamina...?

[overclocked]

This picture looks awful in my opinion.

Agree to disagree then
The other screenshots look better (to varying degrees) but this one looks very sad.


There is something called preference. Do you like women with big boobs, small. Cars, different colours etc.
Sad is your word but i don't get that you cant se as well as others scenery preference compared to visual preference.Getting so tired of the same old things.

Look at the latest build of Red Steel for Wii, looks good IMHO, some pics look not because of the different scenery IMO.

Here we have a game with blowing visuals and far greater scenery differences reminding of lord of the rings almost and some cant se that affecting their objectivity?

[BruceWayneIII]

Remember Scrivener, the famous insider? Here's what he had to say back then:



LAIR - This won't be out until next summer at the earliest, but this one is also absofuckinglutely incredible. Missions basically involve unscripted AI-driven massive scale battles (we're talking Helms Deep here) and you control a single dragon and rider. The game is essentially playing an RTS with itself and it's up to you to influence the tide of the battles. This is also very dark and mature.


If true, then:

1. There's plenty of time to make it shine (copyright, sorry ;-) )
2. The amount of on-screen character will be amazing.

Just wait - every game is 'work in progress' until shipping, right?

[Fredag]

Good point... +rep

[CrumCon]

The game needs working on the HDR side

[BruceWayneIII]

The game needs working on the HDR side

That'll come in later. Polishing usually happens in the final stages, unless you're keen on demoing your game early on. This is not quite the case here :-)

Anyway, where have you been lately? (don't know you, really, but I've come to 'hate' your asian beauty, if you know what I mean ;-) )

[EvilTaru]

This picture looks awful in my opinion. Has anyone found out for certain if it is from an earlier build or has been doctored in some way?

The other screenshots look better (to varying degrees) but this one looks very sad.

http://watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20060908/lair03.jpg

Holy smoke, you're going to imply earlier media of the game is "doctored" judging by ONE SCREEN?

[CrumCon]

That'll come in later. Polishing usually happens in the final stages, unless you're keen on demoing your game early on. This is not quite the case here :-)

Anyway, where have you been lately? (don't know you, really, but I've come to 'hate' your asian beauty, if you know what I mean ;-) )


haha, i know what you mean, :wank: ?? lol

well i was on vacation this summer, and had really busy weeks in my college in the last two weeks.

back on topic, so the lightning usually be worked when everything is done?

[cornholio12]

man these pic are older than dirt. i remember seeing these on another forum some time last year. these are pre-e3 05 build.

i have a feeling sony is doing this on purpose just look at resistence it looked mediocre now it's great.

[EvilTaru]

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss01.jpg

This screen makes me think it's early. Lack of lighting, poor fire effects and the fact that every NPC looks the same and are all in straight rows (they could atleast EASILY have some routines to make them run their own path). I think at TGS, it'll look alot better. I hope.

It's more of an evening shot, even then once can notice the stretched shadows (not generic shadows btw).

??? You can tell the fire effects by one screen capturing one frame of an effect that likely last a couple of hundred frames?

They belong to the same army and thus have the same standard equipment? Did you miss how detailed they are? ESPECIALLY the metallic armor. Certainly moreso than the goons in Heavenly Sword.

Armies tend to march in formation. The dragons are about to attack, obviously they haven't broken formation yet.

While I think there's nothing wrong with being critical, I think in this instance there's a rush of judgement here. If we see that running in real-time and soldiers remain in formation even when attacked and failing to react properly then such complaints might be justified. Let's wait until we see the game in playable form at TGS please.

[Nameless]

The more I think about this discussion regarding Lair, the more I understand why Sony puts strict NDAs in place. I agree the footage displayed is not even close to the trailer footage displayed in the past, but the game is still under development and subject to change.

Unfortunately, people like Undercover Cop and other idiots take this type of footage and create a mountain out of a mole hill. Even if the game does not live up to expectations that does not mean every PS3 game will fail to meet expectations... When the PS3 launches in the US & UK I'm confident the launch titles will be more impressive than the 360 launch last year and I'm a 360 consumer...

If you're not impressed with Lair once the game is released, don't invest your dollars in Lair it's that simple... :rant:

[section]

i have a feeling sony is doing this on purpose just look at resistence it looked mediocre now it's great.So this would be how guerrilla tactics work? :) And all our talk of how SCEI's PR manager should be shot at the dawn have been in vain?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

man these pic are older than dirt. i remember seeing these on another forum some time last year. these are pre-e3 05 build.


Any truth to that?:spiny:

[section]

^^Can't point at the forum or give any links but I've seen some of those pictures myself earlier too. Looong time ago.

[VG Aficionado]

I've got the feeling someone screwed up and posted some early stuff mixed with new stuff, and it's happened a few times already. To me, the "latest" F1 screenshots, some or all of these Lair shots and the "latest" Warhawk trailer all look like they're early builds instead of the latest builds.

[section]

Well, we are all a lot more wiser in this regard in about two week's time.

[Smokey]

no way can it look like this! as someone said on a linked forum. is this the sort of graphics that a Nvidia g7xx video card would put out?

[cornholio12]

Any truth to that?:spiny:

i remember seeing them on beyond3d. someone in the thread said it was pre-e3 build and people were saying it looked like shit and were glad it came out looking good and now that these pics are released as "new" their saying it looks like shit lol

[LaLiLuLeLo]

All I know is:
these screenshots (http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/651/651387/lair-20050916042717444.jpg) were taken from last year. (http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/635/635751/lair-20050721064734439.jpg)

The trailer made it abundantly clear, and I quote: 'the following is comprised entirely of in-game footage."

So logic suggests (I won't say dictates) that really, really crummy ps2 looking screenshot is from a dated build/version of the game.

[Fazares]

All I know is:
these screenshots (http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/651/651387/lair-20050916042717444.jpg) were taken from last year. (http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/635/635751/lair-20050721064734439.jpg)

The trailer made it abundantly clear, and I quote: 'the following is comprised entirely of in-game footage."

So logic suggests (I won't say dictates) that really, really crummy ps2 looking screenshot is from a dated build/version of the game.
they already demonstred it as real time at this year gdc...
missed this one?:beer:

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I'm just pointing out that as far back as last year this game looked amazing and was said clear as day to be in game footage. That shot that looks like a ps2 game has to be really old. You can't sit here and tell me they were developing this game for over a year or 2 and suddenly said, 'OH SNAP THE PS3 CAN'T DO IT!' And their devkit just choked on them. That is more ridiculous than anything.

[Fazares]

I'm just pointing out that as far back as last year You can't sit here and tell me they were developing this game for over a year or 2 and suddenly said, 'OH SNAP THE PS3 CAN'T DO IT!' And their devkit just choked on them. That is more ridiculous than anything.
no one is saying that...just calm down:shrug: :dur:

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I'm calm. I was just clarifying my statement for you (thought there was a discrepancy). cheers.

[antuk15]

The new shots have very little pixel shader effects turned on indicating that :

1. Its a PS2 or PSP version
2. Its an extremely ancient build

[Fazares]

hmmm...there wasnt anything to clarify...i never said the devs said 'OH SNAP THE PS3 CAN'T DO IT!' And their devkit just choked on them...wtf???

[agentorange]

OKAY ONCE AND FOR ALL ALL THE PREVIUOS VIDEOS OF LAIR ARE ALL TARGET VISUALS AND THE MODEL SCENE IS REALTIME BUT THUS NOT HAVE ANY AI AND PHYSICS IMPLEMENTED ON IT, ITS NOT GAME PLAY.

The other pics looks spectacular like the one with hundreds of soldiers(strange that they are on line) but the mysterious one is the fight between two dragons which looks like SNEs era. Thus this mean only cutscenes look good and the gameplay part will have lots of downgrade? I hope not.

[VG Aficionado]

Whatever :whogives:

[woundingchaney]

I'm just pointing out that as far back as last year this game looked amazing and was said clear as day to be in game footage. That shot that looks like a ps2 game has to be really old. You can't sit here and tell me they were developing this game for over a year or 2 and suddenly said, 'OH SNAP THE PS3 CAN'T DO IT!' And their devkit just choked on them. That is more ridiculous than anything.
Well that depends on what they were originally developing on, I was under the impression that they were using a sli setup of two 7800s which would offer considerably more performance than the RSX (this is of course a question). Of course them being competent and quality devs I cant see this being an issue although there always is the possiblity that what we were and have been showed isnt a representation of gameplay.

But either way we will know with time.

[VG Aficionado]

They never used a 7800 SLI setup. AFAIK, it was a 6800 SLI setup in the first devkits, and a single 7800 GPU on beta kits, which had a lower clock frequency and bandwidth than RSX.

[agentorange]

Voidler I dont know if your on drugs but that pic looks good especially the lighting and textures. You should look at the other pic where the two dragons are fighting. It looks like SNES.

[yoshaw]

It looks like SNES.

Who's on drugs again?

[VG Aficionado]

http://pulp.orangephotography.com/blog/archives/squeeze.jpg

[overclocked]

As i said earlier im going to vote that some that fuels get banned .
There has been enough with pessimism on this board, do we need more, NO! . Stealth fanboyism is the worst as they came and.. Well i wont say anymore.

[ddaryl]

As i said earlier im going to vote that some that fuels get banned .
There has been enough with pessimism on this board, do we need more, NO! . Stealth fanboyism is the worst as they came and.. Well i wont say anymore.


I don't think were going to have much of a problem with the haters after TGS. They won't have an anrgument anymore IMO

[woundingchaney]

They never used a 7800 SLI setup. AFAIK, it was a 6800 SLI setup in the first devkits, and a single 7800 GPU on beta kits, which had a lower clock frequency and bandwidth than RSX.
Ok wasnt sure about that one thanks.

[Raijin]

From DeanoC, there was never a kit with a 6800 SLI setup... or maybe It was from DeanA on B3D. However there was none of these SLI setup in any dev. kit.

EDIT: Also, I remember an itw with some Factor-5 guys they began the project on XBOX to get used to shaders or something like that.

EDIT2: Anyways, It better be a very old build because those pics are really, REALLY disapponting especially considering the pedigree of these developers technically speaking. This, also, pretty much confirms that there's no way the game will make launch and maybe the insider was right about it (for the reminder he said the game was planned for summer 2007).

EDIT3: Seriously first time I saw those pics, I thought it was Square-Enix's Drakengard (Drag-on Dragoon). No way this game will look that at the end.

[bigwig]

OKAY ONCE AND FOR ALL ALL THE PREVIUOS VIDEOS OF LAIR ARE ALL TARGET VISUALS AND THE MODEL SCENE IS REALTIME BUT THUS NOT HAVE ANY AI AND PHYSICS IMPLEMENTED ON IT, ITS NOT GAME PLAY.

The other pics looks spectacular like the one with hundreds of soldiers(strange that they are on line) but the mysterious one is the fight between two dragons which looks like SNEs era. Thus this mean only cutscenes look good and the gameplay part will have lots of downgrade? I hope not.


I agree the other pics look very good, especially the one with lots of soldiers on screen...look at the draw distance....but Im not sure if that is cg

anyway, I still expect the game to look very good, if the first pic is representative, its a pretty strange turnout....these are the guys who created RL....Ninja Theory created kung fu chaos last gen and check what they are on to now

peace

[VG Aficionado]

From DeanoC, there was never a kit with a 6800 SLI setup... or maybe It was from DeanA on B3D. However there was none of these SLI setup in any dev. kit.That makes sense since my only source is rumours that could have been based on the premise that RSX was equivalent to a 6800 SLI setup. I guess it was either a 6800 or 7800 GPU what was inside the first devkits.

[Raijin]

That makes sense since my only source is rumours that could have been based on the premise that RSX was equivalent to a 6800 SLI setup. I guess it was either a 6800 or 7800 GPU what was inside the first devkits.


Or I think It was after Mark Rein comments. I guess he said that but It was for Gears of War, not sure though. Anyway It isnt really important.

[cornholio12]

OKAY ONCE AND FOR ALL ALL THE PREVIUOS VIDEOS OF LAIR ARE ALL TARGET VISUALS AND THE MODEL SCENE IS REALTIME BUT THUS NOT HAVE ANY AI AND PHYSICS IMPLEMENTED ON IT, ITS NOT GAME PLAY.

The other pics looks spectacular like the one with hundreds of soldiers(strange that they are on line) but the mysterious one is the fight between two dragons which looks like SNEs era. Thus this mean only cutscenes look good and the gameplay part will have lots of downgrade? I hope not.

uh actually the pic with the guy riding the dragon is ingame somebody from ign said he played that scene in the pic.

THE PICS IN THE FIRST PAGE ARE FROM AN ALPHA BUILD I'VE SEEN THEM WAAAAAAY BEFORE EGM HAD THEM TWO MONTHS AGO, THE GUY WHO POSTED THE PICS SAID THEY WERE ALPHA AND THEN THE NEXT DAY THE PICS WERE GONE.

use some common sense people do you honestly think the ps3 can render REALTIME IN-ENGINE CGI LIKE GRAPHICS FOR CUTSCENES while in-game looks like ps1? that is stupidly ridiculous.

[yoshaw]

I guess I have to step in with some proof that these images are old. OLD as in emargoed to print magazines old. The following image .....

http://xs106.xs.to/xs106/06366/lair03.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs106&d=06366&f=lair03.jpg)

.... appeared in the August Issue of EGM magazine. I've attached the cover image to the cutout proof below as well. So for those who seek confirmation can check back on it whenever they wish. Here's more accurate information for proof readers,

EGM Issue#206 - Page#63 - Bottom Right.
http://xs106.xs.to/xs106/06366/EGMAugust06_Lair.jpg

So if this is an August print magazine, meaning they could have gotten old build images either taken out of filed archives or embargoed to them from long ago until this print magazine had to surface. In either case, it just proves the image to be old as hell. Judging by the other 3 released on the SCEJ TGS website, they look the same as this one. So I'm inclined to believe that Sony PR needs to be shot point blank for deciding to use them. Yes, I'm dead serious! :)

Copy paste this all over the internet for all I care but these images have been proven as OLD!!! (Although I'd appreciate if you host this pic on your own seperate imagehost, thanks)

Edit: Added a lil shameless plug of a PSINext forums watermark ;) Now spread it! lol

[VG Aficionado]

1) A Warhawk trailer appears featuring seemingly pre-E3 footage (remember the un-textured rocket launcher?)

2) All of a sudden, Lair looks very different from some screenshots to others.

3) Three new Formula 1 screenshots appear, but cars' surfaces don't reflect the environments like they did before.

Yes, I do agree with everyone who thinks someone screwed up and posted some very old pics that should have never appeared. If this happened like this indeed, TGS should prove it and some people should be fired.

[Beenie Man]

I am telling you, Sony's new PRs suck.

[makeitlookreal]

This is what I am thinking is happening.

All these games such as Lair have been really looking good in the past few months but Sony is not allowing their developers to give out anything new. There are probably tons of websites (even some of Sony's) and magazines that are desperate for new material but simply are now allowed to access it.

I doubt Sony are letting these game release hardly any of the GOOD stuff that is going to be coming out at TGS.

[Beenie Man]

I think Sony are purposely showing old builds or few weeks old builds of the games to fool us in which they will show the newest build of each game with jaw dropping graphics and gameplay to boot at TGS. But that is only a guess.

[Nameless]

I doubt Sony would purposely show poor pictures, it just does not make sense... The PR department just does not have a clue and thought the old build pictures were good enough and posted the stuff... Considering TGS is around the corner they decided to hold any current/new info until after the event. If the PR team had a clue, they would have waited until after TGS to start posting pics of the game.

[Raijin]

I doubt Sony would purposely show poor pictures, it just does not make sense... The PR department just does not have a clue and thought the old build pictures were good enough and posted the stuff... Considering TGS is around the corner they decided to hold any current/new info until after the event. If the PR team had a clue, they would have waited until after TGS to start posting pics of the game.

SCEI didnt really care about posting pics from old build or new build. I'm sure they dont know the fuck what they were doing by posting these screens. However I pray the game showing at TGS will be much better looking than these...

[rog27]

Developers and Marketing companies do this all the time with pre-release versions of products. It's called sandbagging...giving a false impression of the product so as to excite the consumer when the he/she sees how much better the final version is. Managing expectations is key to building hype. Sometimes things go arye like they did with the ordeal following Sony's E3 2005 press conference where the mantra wasn't followed. Always under promise and over deliver.

[agentorange]

I guess I have to step in with some proof that these images are old. OLD as in emargoed to print magazines old. The following image .....

http://xs106.xs.to/xs106/06366/lair03.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs106&d=06366&f=lair03.jpg)

.... appeared in the August Issue of EGM magazine. I've attached the cover image to the cutout proof below as well. So for those who seek confirmation can check back on it whenever they wish. Here's more accurate information for proof readers,

EGM Issue#206 - Page#63 - Bottom Right.
http://xs106.xs.to/xs106/06366/EGMAugust06_Lair.jpg

So if this is an August print magazine, meaning they could have gotten old build images either taken out of filed archives or embargoed to them from long ago until this print magazine had to surface. In either case, it just proves the image to be old as hell. Judging by the other 3 released on the SCEJ TGS website, they look the same as this one. So I'm inclined to believe that Sony PR needs to be shot point blank for deciding to use them. Yes, I'm dead serious! :)

Copy paste this all over the internet for all I care but these images have been proven as OLD!!! (Although I'd appreciate if you host this pic on your own seperate imagehost, thanks)

Edit: Added a lil shameless plug of a PSINext forums watermark ;) Now spread it! lol

its really strange and alarming that that ugly pic is still displayed at Sony Webiste. I hope this game turn out good in the graphics department since they really promise us alot. They even brag about having a better draw distance effect and textures especially the folliage against Oblivion in xbox 360. I hope TGS is not a nightmare again for Sony like E3 and GDC.

[NickSCFC]

Another PS3 game where the graphics have dropped since E3. I think there's only Resistance and Motorstorm that's looking good for me so far...

graphically anyway.

[mmilinski]

Another PS3 game where the graphics have dropped since E3.

graphically anyway.


This pic is looking like taken from PS2 game. One pic and everybody has something to talk about for a week. If I were You I would wait for this game to be shown on TGS to make a definite jugdement. Especially that GDC picture was confirmed by one of Factor 5 guys as a real gameplay pic.

[Smokey]

Another PS3 game where the graphics have dropped since E3. I think there's only Resistance and Motorstorm that's looking good for me so far...

graphically anyway.
i think your forgetting MGS4 ;)

[agentorange]

I hope the game look like this E3 demo but it is CGI for me from my analysis(We debated about this and its proven CGI since the devs ddi not talk about this vid or labeled it). Even you like it or not those vids are CGI but IAM REALLY HOPING VERY VERY HARD THAT this visuals in this pics will be achieve.

http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82788.jpg
http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82789.jpg
http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82790.jpg
http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82791.jpg
http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82793.jpg

Even the new pics shown by Sony cannot compare to this one(but still the new pics are impressive to say the least except the ugly one which looks like from an SNES era)

[overclocked]

There's better real-time footage so i suggest you DROP this now...

[mmilinski]

I hope the game look like this E3 demo but it is CGI for me from my analysis(We debated about this and its proven CGI since the devs ddi not talk about this vid or labeled it)

As far as I know they were not allowed to comment on that which proves nothing.

[Fazares]

agentorange....the pics u posted look in line with tgs 2005 trailer,real time.confirmed by the devs at this year gdc....if u own an xbox360,like me,and u play kameo,for example,u ll understand what next gen gfx are all about...simply put...u dont know next gen gfx...

[VG Aficionado]

agentorange is committed to bore the hell out of us.

[makeitlookreal]

Agent Orange,

I think those graphics will be matched or exceeded by what we will see at TGS.

[Nameless]

It may sound crazy, but I agree with Agentorange...
It's obvious the footage in the pics above are CG imagery, based on the lighting and animation alone. The question is can the team create real-time footage with the same level of detail and overall polish? I beleive it's possible based on other PS3 footage (i.e Resistance & MGS4), if the title is released at launch I doubt it, but if the title is released next year it's plausible.

I don't think the game will look exactly like the trailer footage, but close enough would be a huge feat and better than anything currently released on the 360 visually. Peace

[Raijin]

I hope the game look like this E3 demo but it is CGI for me from my analysis(We debated about this and its proven CGI since the devs ddi not talk about this vid or labeled it). Even you like it or not those vids are CGI but IAM REALLY HOPING VERY VERY HARD THAT this visuals in this pics will be achieve.

http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82788.jpg
http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82789.jpg
http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82790.jpg
http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82791.jpg
http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82793.jpg

Even the new pics shown by Sony cannot compare to this one(but still the new pics are impressive to say the least except the ugly one which looks like from an SNES era)

The pics you have posted are obviously from CG btu if the final game can match these, well I think it's clear It will be the best looking game ever.

[Fazares]

The pics you have posted are obviously from CG btu if the final game can match these, well I think it's clear It will be the best looking game ever.
are u sure...?
they look on par with the tgs2005 tease,imo....go check....

[Raijin]

are u sure...?
they look on par with the tgs2005 tease,imo....go check....

No they are way better than TGS2005. Also you couldnt see shit on that trailer because It was all dark without any HDR or such.

[Fazares]

No they are way better than TGS2005. Also you couldnt see shit on that trailer because It was all dark without any HDR or such.
way better....???

[NickSCFC]

i think your forgetting MGS4 ;)

Yes, but that won't be out for atleast a year in the west.

[frosty]

Our favorite resident dev Cpiasminc already said that at least some of that trailer is achievable in real time on PS3. He programs the damn things, so I'll take his word for it over some random forum naysayers.

[Fazares]

Our favorite resident dev Cpiasminc already said that at least some of that trailer is achievable in real time on PS3. He programs the damn things, so I'll take his word for it over some random forum naysayers.
we dont even know if thats really cg....seeing the tgs2005 trailer....i d say no...

[frosty]

This is what Cpiasminc had to say about that trailer.

Looked at it... it appears to be a collection of both. There's some pre-rendered stuff, and some in-game realtime stuff I've seen before. Some of the momentary clips came from older demos which were said to be realtime. There are other moments that look to have not-in-game geometry and animations. There are instances where they try to hide it nicely, but not quite -- for instance, the hammer throw moment, you see two cuts back and forth, and the lighting angles are different in each clip -- there was an instant of realtime footage at the beginning,

http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82791.jpg


and then it switches to what appears to be CG (the chain and the human models makes me think that more than anything else).

http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82793.jpg
http://media.insidegamer.nl/screenshots/public/4029/82788.jpg

There does appear to be a fair bit of retouching all over the video, but color saturation is really washed out on everything, so I can't tell for sure.


Thank you for always keeping the fanboys in check and bringing a healthy dose of reality into these conversations Cpi.

[Siraris]

I was JUST ABOUT to post that EGM information that Yoshaw did. I was looking through the mag today, saw the image, and said "I KNEW I saw that somewhere!".

So yeah, it's old, probably before even July.

If the above shots are in game, and not CG... I honestly don't know how to put it into words. I guess I can only put it on the level of what the latest MGS4 trailer invoked in me.

[Jubal]

we dont even know if thats really cg....seeing the tgs2005 trailer....i d say no...

It's CG, I saw the thing at E3 and even then it was pretty obvious. That said there's no need to freak out, I'm sure Lair will look amazing.

[frosty]

It's both. Read Cpiasmic's comments on it. He brings up some very valid points, like the lighting angles changing between shots and such. Also, the shot where the dragon blows fire on that guy, you can see the textures on the ground are a bit low resolution, definitley not CG quality.

[overclocked]

It's both. Read Cpiasmic's comments on it. He brings up some very valid points, like the lighting angles changing between shots and such. Also, the shot where the dragon blows fire on that guy, you can see the textures on the ground are a bit low resolution, definitley not CG quality.

Depend on how you define it. As i gone frame per frame for a couple of hours
it looks like the level of L.A.I.R visuals from what we seen.
So most likely from the game but not from the game if you get.

[JosVerstappen]

There's 'ingame' and 'ingame'. The cutscenes in MGS have always been done in realtime with the game-engine, but then again, the gameplay-gfx with that same engine look a lot downgraded.

The animation, texturing en details are far more advanced in de cutscenes compared to ingame. Without gameplay-mechanics, A.I. and all kinds of processes running at the same time when you are playing, there's just a lot more power and memory resources available to do a much more detailed scene with the same engine for a scripted piece of 'movie' calculated with the engine.

This could be the case with Lair too in some showed material. It's same with Nvidia/ATI demo's you can download from their site, to show off the power of your videocard, with the ultra-detailed models (moving hairs etc). Those kind of details are also done in realtime, but hardly ever matched in a game, because obviously they cannot use all the resources for gfx displaying (unless it's a non-interactive non-playable cutscene).

Not saying the game will not impress, I just got the feeling from some showed material that it was too impressive animated to be really a playable part of the actual game. There's always a chance they find a way to innovate and impress though, because just like in MGS4 or BIA3 cutscenes are becoming more and more part of the actual gameplay while they fluendly and seamlessly integrate in eachother without hickups or black screens.

[Fazares]

It's both. Read Cpiasmic's comments on it. He brings up some very valid points, like the lighting angles changing between shots and such. Also, the shot where the dragon blows fire on that guy, you can see the textures on the ground are a bit low resolution, definitley not CG quality.
depend on what kind of cg quality ur talking about....recent cg....no....5-6 years old cg,as stated by tim sweenie,...yes...
about cpi comments,i ll wait the final game before passing judgment....to me its just in line with the tgs 2005 teaser....

[Voidler]

It's more of an evening shot, even then once can notice the stretched shadows (not generic shadows btw).

??? You can tell the fire effects by one screen capturing one frame of an effect that likely last a couple of hundred frames?

They belong to the same army and thus have the same standard equipment? Did you miss how detailed they are? ESPECIALLY the metallic armor. Certainly moreso than the goons in Heavenly Sword.

Armies tend to march in formation. The dragons are about to attack, obviously they haven't broken formation yet.

While I think there's nothing wrong with being critical, I think in this instance there's a rush of judgement here. If we see that running in real-time and soldiers remain in formation even when attacked and failing to react properly then such complaints might be justified. Let's wait until we see the game in playable form at TGS please.There's no evidence that it's an evening shot, and it's entirely irrelevent. Shadows should be cast in some form.

Yes, just as you can tell from a frame of the trailer at E3 that the fire effects are good. Or a single frame from the DMC4 pictures, that the fire looks good. They have a consistency and contrast in colours through yellows and oranges and reds, aswell as looking and shaped like fire (compared to the Lair screenshots when it looks more like red smoke).

Maybe that is the case, but there is no need for them to be the exact same height. Besides, this looks like a medieval era setting, not modern day. Matching uniforms were hardly a consideration back then.

They aren't marching, they're running towards the gate and are being attacked by dragons at the same time. I hardly think lining up would be a consideration either.

I am being overly critical, because these are simple elements that shouldn't be so flawed.

[Jubal]

It's both. Read Cpiasmic's comments on it. He brings up some very valid points, like the lighting angles changing between shots and such. Also, the shot where the dragon blows fire on that guy, you can see the textures on the ground are a bit low resolution, definitley not CG quality.

It's CG, they're most likely using game assets (you can see visible polys and some low res textures) but it is pre-rendered.

[rog27]

There's 'ingame' and 'ingame'. The cutscenes in MGS have always been done in realtime with the game-engine, but then again, the gameplay-gfx with that same engine look a lot downgraded.

The animation, texturing en details are far more advanced in de cutscenes compared to ingame. Without gameplay-mechanics, A.I. and all kinds of processes running at the same time when you are playing, there's just a lot more power and memory resources available to do a much more detailed scene with the same engine for a scripted piece of 'movie' calculated with the engine.

This could be the case with Lair too in some showed material. It's same with Nvidia/ATI demo's you can download from their site, to show off the power of your videocard, with the ultra-detailed models (moving hairs etc). Those kind of details are also done in realtime, but hardly ever matched in a game, because obviously they cannot use all the resources for gfx displaying (unless it's a non-interactive non-playable cutscene).

Not saying the game will not impress, I just got the feeling from some showed material that it was too impressive animated to be really a playable part of the actual game. There's always a chance they find a way to innovate and impress though, because just like in MGS4 or BIA3 cutscenes are becoming more and more part of the actual gameplay while they fluendly and seamlessly integrate in eachother without hickups or black screens.

Certainly animations in in-game engine cutscenes are canned and the camera angles cinematic, but many games, such as those in the MGS series, do use the same exact assets and textures in gameplay sequences, as well. You may very well be referring to an effect that happens because of the camera angle and it's relation to the action. Many times LOD (Level of Detail) blurs out texture detail and degrades model complexity as the camera pulls away. This is normal for all in-game engines, as the hardware is being programmed to conserve resources as it renders a more encompassing scene with farther draw distance.

[curryking1]

Certainly animations in in-game engine cutscenes are canned and the camera angles cinematic, but many games, such as those in the MGS series, do use the same exact assets and textures in gameplay sequences, as well. You may very well be referring to an effect that happens because of the camera angle and it's relation to the action. Many times LOD (Level of Detail) blurs out texture detail and degrades model complexity as the camera pulls away. This is normal for all in-game engines, as the hardware is being programmed to conserve resources as it renders a more encompassing scene with farther draw distance.

It is true though that the character models for the main characters during gameplay are not the same character models in the cutscenes. If you try to get a good close up look at Raiden or Snake in MGS2 or Snake in MGS3, you'll notice the largest difference is in the detail of the face. This is not due to LOD or anything, it is simply like that for MGS2 and 3.

[Domination]

There's 'ingame' and 'ingame'. The cutscenes in MGS have always been done in realtime with the game-engine, but then again, the gameplay-gfx with that same engine look a lot downgraded.

The animation, texturing en details are far more advanced in de cutscenes compared to ingame. Without gameplay-mechanics, A.I. and all kinds of processes running at the same time when you are playing, there's just a lot more power and memory resources available to do a much more detailed scene with the same engine for a scripted piece of 'movie' calculated with the engine.

This could be the case with Lair too in some showed material. It's same with Nvidia/ATI demo's you can download from their site, to show off the power of your videocard, with the ultra-detailed models (moving hairs etc). Those kind of details are also done in realtime, but hardly ever matched in a game, because obviously they cannot use all the resources for gfx displaying (unless it's a non-interactive non-playable cutscene).

Not saying the game will not impress, I just got the feeling from some showed material that it was too impressive animated to be really a playable part of the actual game. There's always a chance they find a way to innovate and impress though, because just like in MGS4 or BIA3 cutscenes are becoming more and more part of the actual gameplay while they fluendly and seamlessly integrate in eachother without hickups or black screens.

I have to disagree right there. MGS's cut scenes are close to indentical, if not completely, to the in-game footage. A downgrade - especially a huge one, would be an FMV to actual game play.

[curryking1]

I have to disagree right there. MGS's cut scenes are close to indentical, if not completely, to the in-game footage. A downgrade - especially a huge one, would be an FMV to actual game play.

As I said before, the detail on the faces on the PS2 incarnations of MGS are quite a bit less detailed during gameplay compared to the in-engine cutscenes. Even the models are slightly less robust in gameplay, but while playing the difference is negligible unless you try to get the camera really up close to the characters.

[frosty]

It's CG, they're most likely using game assets (you can see visible polys and some low res textures) but it is pre-rendered.

I'll take a developer's word over yours.

[agentorange]

So finally we are united inconclusion that the E3 Demo is CGI PERIOD!

[yoshaw]

^lol 4 red bars. And I've yet to rep him.

[Applefiend]

At the end of the day...

http://www.factor5.com/projects.shtml

Every one of these games an example of cutting edge graphics. Rogue Leader was launch Gamecube and still looks totally killer. The water effects in Rogue Leader took better than most games today.

And also...

http://www.factor5.com/downloads.shtml <<< Rtype for free! Give them a break. :)

As any dev will tell you the game really comes together in the last month, not the first month. Gotta have a little faith.

[VG Aficionado]

So finally we are united inconclusion that the E3 Demo is CGI PERIOD!Yeah... only that we are not "united inconclusion" :duh:

^lol 4 red bars. And I've yet to rep him.:laugh:

[makeitlookreal]

I firmly believe that with first generation games a lot of the early CGI we have seen will be at least almost matched in real time (to the human eye, not technically). We have several examples of games improving significantly in the timespan of several months. I believe that if not *all* of that trailer was "real-time" then by the time the game is launched most of what was CGI will be replaced with in-game assets.

Personally, I think that Lair has a great chance of eventually matching the CG elements of it's trailers. Remember, in many of the scenes most of the world is simply clouds, the sky, dragons, and their riders. The environment is not as detailed as lets say Resistance Fall of Man. I think with what we have seen so far in other games plus the fact in many scenes Lair can limit itself just to the sky, clouds, and dragons we will be very satisified with the final product.

[agentorange]

But its strange that in the official website http://www.factor5.com/ they still display proudly the last year Lair pic and along with the E3 demo pics below

Is Factor 5 really do that kind of quality

[Voidler]

But its strange that in the official website http://www.factor5.com/ they still display proudly the last year Lair pic and along with the E3 demo pics below

Is Factor 5 really do that kind of qualityMaybe because the recent pics aren't representative of the game?;)

[venomv]

So finally we are united inconclusion that the E3 Demo is CGI PERIOD!

No, but you are gonna think that anyway. It looks like an early build, anyone with an iota of common sense would agree.

[Jubal]

I'll take a developer's word over yours.

Fair enough, it doesn't matter in the end.

[agentorange]

They have the balls to display the E3 2k6 demo as pics for there websites so I'll just wait if they can do it.

[Siraris]

Two new ones on the PS3 Japanese site. Let's just hope they replace the other two :)

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss01.jpg

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss04.jpg

[Hrama]

You have got to be joking right? I mean, the screens look awesome, it's just, is that really achievable in game like that?

[agentorange]

I just hope they remove the crappy pic in the sony website

[overclocked]

L.A.I.R is going to set the visual standard of nextgen imho. Now i only hope the game is as good as its GFX.

[EvilTaru]

Two new ones on the PS3 Japanese site. Let's just hope they replace the other two :)

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss01.jpg

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss04.jpg

The bottom one is freakin' impressive. :grouphug:

[EvilTaru]

You have got to be joking right? I mean, the screens look awesome, it's just, is that really achievable in game like that?

Depends on which developer we're talking about. Factor 5? Definite possibility, anyone else? That's going to be hard.

[ddaryl]

Here is another small pic, but it's still very juicy IMO

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/ps3/imgs/pho_lai01.jpg

[GodMachine_Iridius_Dio]

And another...

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss02.jpg

Not the best pic, though, but still new.

Dio

[ddaryl]

And another...

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss02.jpg

Not the best pic, though, but still new.

Dio

Naw this one has been circulated and it has been posted a few pages back.

God I wish there was another.

These pics are from older builds, can't wait for TGS

[GodMachine_Iridius_Dio]

You have got to be joking right? I mean, the screens look awesome, it's just, is that really achievable in game like that?

Nah, no joking... When you have the performance budget to blow on it, it's pretty easy. Really there's nothing radically new here, technically, it's just an upscale of things we've already seen - It's still polys and shaders, only lots more polys and complex shaders than we're accustomed to.

Quoting ddaryl

Naw this one has been circulated and it has been posted a few pages back.

End quote...

Rly?!??!

Didn't see that one... must get new eyeballs.

[bigwig]

LOOKS EXCELLENT, ESPECIALLy the ground pic where the detail and effects look great

peace

[VG Aficionado]

Excellent! :hugegrin: Someone's got to shoot the people who leaked the early crappy screenshots.

[yoshaw]

Two new ones on the PS3 Japanese site. Let's just hope they replace the other two :)
http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss04.jpg

Haters PWNED!111ElevenOne!11

Freaking gorgeous! 0_0

[ddaryl]

Excellent! :hugegrin: Someone's got to shoot the people who leaked the early crappy screenshots.

Naw, this is a Sony plan IMO. they have known all along that what they laid out at E3 2005 would be possible, but they also know from experience it is useless to defened themselves, since the only proof is seeing is believing.

I think Sony has learned so much from their own mistakes that they have apporached this generation with a completely different mind set. They new they didn't have the best show ready for E3 2006, and that why there entire presentation was half heartedly done. Sony knows devs couldn't possibly have met expectations at E3, so they didn't over hype themselves this year, and people we're disspointed because they came to expect the over-hype approach from Sony.

IMO Sony is and has been baiting their doubters, and getting ready to unload so much unseen stuff it'll have all the Sony haters curled up in the fetal position, rocking back and forth, and mumbling in toungues.

[VG Aficionado]

IMO Sony is and has been baiting their doubters, and getting ready to unload so much unseen stuff it'll have all the Sony haters curled up in the fetal position, rocking back and forth, and mumbling in toungues.LMAO!

Anyway, I still think the crappy screenshots and other things (some F1 early screenshots, Warhawk's trailer with pre-E3 footage, etc.) that have appeared recently are the result of someone letting some early stuff leak when it shouldn't have.

[yoshaw]

^And them tards at the PR dept need to file these media related items with their originating dates too. Sucks for them to not know an image is old or new when getting disclosed in public.

[TEEDA]

http://www.enregistrersous.com/images/b74064a99de4f156b61becc28294d342.jpg

[Raijin]

http://www.enregistrersous.com/images/b74064a99de4f156b61becc28294d342.jpg



Old! :wave: (just above)

[VG Aficionado]

Let's bring these two back once again :)

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss01.jpg

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/ps3/imgs/pho_lai01.jpg

It's official: Lair PWNS!

[agentorange]

Actually we criticize about the lack of good textures on the ground but I think thats asking to much. They already put highly detailed characters and texture to it equipt with I think is HDR lighting. Also I think we can see 100 plus characters at once. So I think we should be contented with it.

By the way I hope Sony remove the ugly pic. The small pic looks good. Its like Lord of the rings Helms deep battles. Where are the eagles hehe!!

[VG Aficionado]

Actually we criticize about the lack of good textures on the ground but I think thats asking to much. They already put highly detailed characters and texture to it equipt with I think is HDR lighting. Also I think we can see 100 plus characters at once. So I think we should be contented with it."We"? I think you mean "I". I don't criticise the ground detail because I'm well aware that flying games or games involving flying can't be expected to look too great in this regard. Actually, I see Lair is a truly great achievement given the circumstances.

[TEEDA]

Those dragons reminds me of the movie " dragonheart" from 1996
http://www.fantascienza.net/leonardo/le/evocata_Draco_Dragonheart1.jpg

and just knowing that todays console technology can beat or rival with those old cgs and going close to today's cinema's FX special effects.

[agentorange]

Your right. The focus of the game is fighting in the sky. Actually we should be happy that theres some ground battles. Its an added bonus. So we must be contented with that. Again I still hope something big will happen for this game that why i hope its not a launch title but a AAA title for next year. I believe the E3 demo can be achieve with more time. Hey this could be a good European launch game. Along with soccer.

[Fazares]

looks good...

[agentorange]

Its just me but the dragon of the hero is different. It has feathers. Maybee he rides a much rarer dragon. By the way i hope we can see lots of dragon species and they are unlockable so it can be use. And dragon breeding to make your own dragons and hidden dragons in the world.

Also where did this pic come from and are there bigger ones?

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/ps3/imgs/pho_lai01.jpg

[venomv]

That would be cool, we can only hope.

[Undercover Cop]

http://www.enregistrersous.com/images/b74064a99de4f156b61becc28294d342.jpg

:spiny:

This one is really freaking impressive. If it is real, then Sony's claim of bringing movie-like quality to videogames will be realised. What would really make such shots work is a swooping camera (like in Return of the King when the Nazguls attack the White City).

That is, IF in fact this is a REAL gameplay shot and not a touched up prerender hastily put up for the sake of damage control...

[KnightRiderX]

Well it deff looks real. take a look at where the dragon's wings bone connects to the body. u can see some imperfections there. if it was CGI, that would have been spotted and fixed.

[section]

Those dragons reminds me of the movie " dragonheart" from 1996No wonder 'cause they are modeled by Peter König (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0465115/), he's got an impressive resume. There's some talk about the modeling techniques used in LAIR this short Gamasutra's LAIR feature (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051007/waugh_01.shtml).

Actually there seems to be a lot deeper interview of him at animationarena (http://www.animationarena.com/3d-modeler.html).

[dnpmakkah]

This game reminds me alot of Warhawk in the sense that it looks beautiful in the "on-air" sequences then so-so on the ground. One reason for this can be because the game is mostly air battles thus the studio has spent more time on those graphics. Once that is perfected they will focus on the ground aspect..slowly but surely making them both on equal footing. The image below is incredible. Not only could this be from an older build but judging from Heavenly Sword and Resistance I would suspect the lighting is not even incorporated yet, which means it should only get better.:clapping:

Imagine taking off on your dragon and going as high in the sky as possible then looking down and seeing an army of enemy dragons. You then suicide dive on the dragons back 100 miles per hour aggressively heading towards the ground and as you near the targets you jump off and land on the enemy taking it out.
http://www.enregistrersous.com/images/b74064a99de4f156b61becc28294d342.jpg

[RavenFox]

Holy Shit. Blood and veins in the dragons wings go hand in hand with the E305 Nvidia demo. Gold bless the chips God bless those beautiful chips..*wipes eyes*

[Coded-Dude]

*pats Raven Fox on back*

there there buddy.......there there.

[Rubbernek]

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6264/lair2pg4se3.jpg

Brightened image.

[yoshaw]

No wonder 'cause they are modeled by Peter König (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0465115/), he's got an impressive resume. There's some talk about the modeling techniques used in LAIR this short Gamasutra's LAIR feature (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051007/waugh_01.shtml).

Actually there seems to be a lot deeper interview of him at animationarena (http://www.animationarena.com/3d-modeler.html).

Thanks for sharing this valuable info. Speaks volumes about the talent enclosed within the F5 bunch.

[EvilTaru]

Here is another small pic, but it's still very juicy IMO

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/ps3/imgs/pho_lai01.jpg

Can't wait to see this sucker in action. ~_~

[Coded-Dude]

Can't wait to see this sucker in action. ~_~
QFT

[agentorange]

I hope we can breed are own dragons in the game. And also we can find hidden dragon species in the LAir world. Its like chocobo breeding game of FF. Building your best dragon and battling it online wow!

[overclocked]

Those dragons reminds me of the movie " dragonheart" from 1996
http://www.fantascienza.net/leonardo/le/evocata_Draco_Dragonheart1.jpg

and just knowing that todays console technology can beat or rival with those old cgs and going close to today's cinema's FX special effects.

They used models from that movie iirc also as well as the equipment.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Man I loved that movie. It was AMAZING. And Draco was voiced by Sean Connery! Pwnzor leetness.

[GodMachine_Iridius_Dio]

Nah, not the same models - It's the same modeler, though. Their creation involved scanning of clay models and some enhancement/alteration/adjustment in Z-brush and Mudbox (likely for normal maps).

[CreativeWriter]

Man I loved that movie. It was AMAZING. And Draco was voiced by Sean Connery! Pwnzor leetness.


"Who will come with me to kill the dragon!"




Horrid movie, btw. When I saw it I was young enough to think dragons = fun. Sure learned that lesson fast.

[frosty]

http://www.fantascienza.net/leonardo/le/evocata_Draco_Dragonheart1.jpg

Look at those low res textures on the wing and arms... Those GFX are so shitty! :P

[LaLiLuLeLo]

"Who will come with me to kill the dragon!"




Horrid movie, btw. When I saw it I was young enough to think dragons = fun. Sure learned that lesson fast.

Hahaha. I remember liking the movie, but I liked a lot of bad movies (Power Rangers) when I was little. Just don't have the same sensibilities as an older person.. You're probably right saying it was crap. There was a game for it that was garbage too. I wasn't too young to realize that though.. It was just plain aweful.

[Pumpkin Head]

http://xs306.xs.to/xs306/06374/ss04.jpg
http://xs306.xs.to/xs306/06374/ss01.jpg


looking good..

[Viano]

ohhh I haaattte prerenderrrrzzz lOL

[VG Aficionado]

LOL, how many times have those been re-posted? I guess we want to make sure the first crappy pictures were old :)

[agentorange]

viano they are not prerendered just look at the ground and also the armor and skin of the dragon. You can clearly see some edges. The CGI is the E3 2k6 demo.

[makeitlookreal]

Quite frankly how can this....

http://xs306.xs.to/xs306/06374/ss04.jpg

Be in the same game that had the horrible screen shot a while back (you know the screenshot I am talking about).

[Illmatic]

Shouldn't you be saying the opposite?

How can that 1 bad screenshot be be the bases of some peoples opinion on the game graphically, when every other screenshot looks hot, that screen you just posted being a great example :smoke:

[Zer0-Sum]

After reading the thread here and looking at all the pics posted, I am willing to bet money that the first screen shot of the Lair that was posted is just a pre-build shot that has the Devs of the game looking the other way in embaressment! They mosy likely shudder at the idea that the public even got a hold of it to see.

That is my two cents al least.......

[TEEDA]

New pic :

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/lair/img/ss04.jpg

[Grovestreet]

Hmm not bad at all, Water looks pretty neat, Dragons look slightly better in that pic to, Is Lair going to be shown at TGS or not? I Cant remember.

[ddaryl]

there is a new trailer at IGN as well, From what Iunderstand there saying the game is less then 50% complete

http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/761/761161/vids_1.html


http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/733/733921/lair-20060921042446115.jpg

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/733/733921/lair-20060921042447318.jpg

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/733/733921/lair-20060921042448568.jpg

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/733/733921/lair-20060921042444896.jpg

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/733/733921/lair-20060921045749771.jpg

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/733/733921/lair-20060921045754459.jpg

[The_One]

100 bucks says Lair is going to suck in the AI department... The troops on the ground looks worse than the AI you see in Dynasty Warriors... They won't move, and they stay in the EXACT SAME formation all the time...

[OmniCloud]

^50% development son??! Cut it some slack-at least it looks pretty...and what's wrong with blowing 100 people away with a giant ball of fire and seeing the fly everywhere:huh:

[Grovestreet]

^50% development son??! Cut it some slack-at least it looks pretty...and what's wrong with blowing 100 people away with a giant ball of fire and seeing the fly everywhere:huh:

Thats what they all say, Sony's Conference...sucked...Now we need to see the playable games there....

[ddaryl]

Can't people just be excited for the possibilities instead of trying hard to find a reason for a flaw.

It's getting old

[Beenie Man]

Thats what they all say, Sony's Conference...sucked...Now we need to see the playable games there....

It wasn't a conference but a keynote. However, the keynote sucked.

[Applefiend]

IGN HD version of Lair. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JTCKYOCO

Didn't get it from me...

It looks.... OK...

[Beenie Man]

Lair is a big let down.

[Rai]

looks good

[Siraris]

One unique element that made it all come together was the motion control. You virtually hold the reigns of the beast purely with motion control in ways you might expect -- but we also break new ground by utilizing our radically new gesture recognition system: If you pull on the reigns, the dragon does a 180 turn, if you punch it in a direction, you dash towards your enemies, if you dodge with the controller, the dragon on-screen dodges. If you latch onto certain objects in the game, you can tear them apart by wildly shaking the controller.

Sounds better than any Wii controller stuff I've seen!

[Siraris]

BTW IGN Says it's 35% done not 50.

[xbdestroya]

Only 35% done.

Give it some time guys... ;)

[Applefiend]

Yup, Red Steel works nothing like that, it's basic as hell.

[adam2407]

IGN: What are your thoughts on 1080p? You're rendering some stuff out at that resolution now, do you think it's necessary for games to be standardized as 1080p and is it doable?

Eggebrecht: First of all, we are not only rendering some part of Lair in 1080p. The whole game is in 1080p native, from front-end to all in-game bits.

We absolutely love 1080p because of the detail that you can see. When we went up from 720 to 1080 I was blown away how much more of the artwork was visible. We started out being true 720p proponents, but since switching over to true 1080p via HDMI a few months ago I can't go back.

Lair is not upscaling or cheating to get to 1080p, we are natively running at the full 1920x1080 progressive resolution. Earlier this year we were quite skeptical if that would be possible, but the final kits really were a revelation in terms of power. Sony delivered what they promised and after a bit of tweaking we had the game up-and running. One thing that did help us was that our engine always was heavily reliant on data streaming, so the larger frame buffer memory never was an issue. By now half of our staff has 1080p monitors, and believe me, the 720 guys are jealous.

hehehe, another 1080p games people ^^

[Raijin]

35% only?? lol Ok, we wont see that one for quite time and I suppose It will improve as time passes.