Regarding the PS3s OS and its SPE's... (A Question)

[BlueTsunami]

XB or anyone that may be in the know. I've been hearing a nasty rumor that another SPE may have fallen to the OS the PS3 should be sporting (from a semi credible guy). Have any of you heard the same?

[Nameless]

Are you asking if two 3.2 GHz SPEs are needed just to run the PS3's OS?
If that's your question I can tell you the answer is definately no...

(Add some RAM and you could run Vista with no problem with that amount of processing power, in theory!)
Case closed! :closed:

[saxdawg00]

Even if true, it'll still be the most powerfull gaming cpu out there, bar none.

[xbdestroya]

Well, I just saw on B3D someone post that they heard now three SPEs are being soaked up by the OS. I figure you guys are hearing your rumor from the same place, and I figure it's 'gotta be GAF' (TM). :smoke:

I don't know, I've been hearing a lot of talk about PS3 specs these last couple of days, but nothing that outlandish, and nothing to do with the SPEs at all. I'll ask around, but I would seriously doubt the plausibility of anything so bizzarre.

PS - I think this rumor is so extreme, that if false, it'll be quickly laid to rest (within 12 or 24 hours). If true, well I'm totally mystified...

[Nameless]

XB, sounds like MS misinformation to create confusion before TGS...
Perhaps I'm being too paranoid... :susp:

[makeitlookreal]

I can understand one single SPE being used for the OS, but three would seem insane and needless. For example, one SPE has more power than an entire PS2. Why would you need more processing power than THAT for the PS3's OS? If you need more processing power than an entire PS2 for the PS3's OS there is a problem.

However, I think that was just a troll sprouting out rumors.

[BlueTsunami]

Not sure what to make of it. Times like this I hate being on the internet reading this stuff since a lot of the people who are in the know like to flaunt the info (these are people not directly tied to an NDA and not associated with Sony).

Could be FUD, wouldn't doubt that at this point. Can't wait to see some final confirmed specs from a more credible source.

[yoshaw]

I don't know, I've been hearing a lot of talk about PS3 specs these last couple of days, but nothing that outlandish, and nothing to do with the SPEs at all.

You shouldn't have said that. That almost makes me want you to share whatever lil it might turn out to be :cry2:



j/k :troutslap

[xbdestroya]

Well, so was it from GAF? Just want to see if my guess was correct. :smoke:

In any event, it would be *very* counterintuitive for this to be the case. Normally dev kits start at a low level and get slowly increased until they match the final specs of the machine. Now, since we already know devs have been operating under the assumption that only one SPE will be reserved for the OS, it seems completely outlandish that only now would Sony come in and say they need two more. It would defy all reason.

Now, things are strange lately, so I'm not saying there's *no* chance, but I mean... anyway, we'll know within 24 hours for sure. Devs will either be infuriated by this move if true, or infuriated by this rumor if false, and the truth will come out from somewhere.

[makeitlookreal]

I too would love to see some final confirmed specs. Sony could clear up all these rumors with one short simple page of information. However, they seem to be waiting and waiting till the last minute before they release anything.

[Raijin]

What are those strange things you keep hearing XB?

[BlueTsunami]

Well, so was it from GAF? Just want to see if my guess was correct. :smoke:

Oh yeah, pretty much but I talked to the guy personally a little while ago (about 2 Months back) on IRC and he was alluding to this (didn't outright say it)

He essentially said that efficiency in the code took a dive or ran into a hiccup with the OS running on the Cell and are ending up needing more resources because of it.

I agree though,putting into perspective actively developed games, it would be weird for Sony to just snatch SPEs away from developers like that. In fact, I would think that it would require Developers to update their games with this in mind. Which is crazy since were about two months away from launch.

[xbdestroya]

You shouldn't have said that. That almost makes me want you to share whatever lil it might turn out to be :cry2:



j/k :troutslap


LOL, I'll actually tell you what I've been hearing, because I've been pondering it all day today and what to do with it. There are rumors going around - and these are serious rumors, the kind where you can't get answers anywhere because not even devs know - that RSX may in fact make it out at 550MHz.

Now, obviously I feel a responsibility to address this, as I was the one that 'confirmed' the drop to 500MHz, but seriously no one knows what the deal is with this. From what I understand, this is making the rounds within certain circles because Sony has RSX chips running at 550MHz at the voltages they need. Well... that's no surprise, because you figure they would have some anyway. The whole deal before was not having enough working at the needed voltage to warrant sticking with 550. Or at least that's my theory, but it's what makes sense.

But now after this Blu-ray diode thing... I don't know... talk that the decreased launch supplies might put the 550 chips back in play afterall due to reduced demand? It's really strange. Seriously, I've asked a lot of 'people' about this today, and either they've heard the rumor as well and don't know the answer, or haven't heard it at all.

Dev kits right now are still at 500MHz. It's less than two weeks until TGS; it would truly be shocking if Sony pulled it to 550 at this point. Until today, I seriously thought it beyond reach. But then this rumor...

Anyway, so that's that. I actually still think it'll launch at 500, and don't quite understand how the rumor got started. But it's out there all the same, and with my being all wrapped up in this stuff post-Inquirer, I thought I might as well share it, since it's been eating at me today.

[makeitlookreal]

If the OS ends up utilizing three whole SPEs then that's downright horrible! I hope that person you talked to was making that up, because that is like taking a big chunk of the PS3's power to run some bloated OS!

For example, I don't really care about the OS in a console. Yes, it would be fun to play online but I don't want to video chat while playing a game, be browsing the web while playing a game, or have ten different processes going. I want to be able to do all of that stuff while I am NOT play the game, but while I am in game I want the resources of the CELL dedicated to the GAME! I do NOT want three SPEs wasted on a bloated OS.

If the OS uses 3 SPEs and also requires 96MB of RAM then we have a couple serious issues on our hands!

Basically, we will have a LOT of bad news to deal with if the above two things turn out to be true.

[Sephiroth_VII]

"cough"cpiasminc"cough"

Since Sony has already revealed the details of the SPE's, it won't break his NDA to tell us that there's no change, right??

Also, if he says "no comment", as in "this is covered by my NDA", we'll know that something has changed.

[Raijin]

3 SPEs for an OS sounds like complete BS. Not worth the attention IMO.

EDIT: Cant believe Sony would be that stupid, I mean, seriously, do you imagine the waste of power that would represent?

EDIT2: I still dont believe the 96 MB for the OS...

[liver_kick]

Well, so was it from GAF?

Looks like its from one of the usual suspects at Opa-Ages. Not sure where that falls on your personal totem poll of credibility. Its pretty low on mine. ;)

[xbdestroya]

Looks like its from one of the usual suspects at Opa-Ages. Not sure where that falls on your personal totem poll of credibility. Its pretty low on mine. ;)

LOL, off the bat, Opa-Ages ranks extremely low for me. ;)

Especially since it's basically the lair of the core/elite anti-Playstation FUD contingent.

[Raijin]

btw was it confirmed the OS takes 96 MB?

[BlueTsunami]

LOL, off the bat, Opa-Ages ranks extremely low for me. ;)

Especially since it's basically the lair of the core/elite anti-Playstation FUD contingent.

I agree but the guy providing the info is (supposedly) developer. The way he planted the info in the thread (from which this stems from) was kinda suspect though. Take a huge grain of salt with this no doubt :p

[xbdestroya]

btw was it confirmed the OS takes 96 MB?

The end/final figure isn't yet known, but for development purposes yes that's true.

Developers have to set aside 32MB of GDDR3 and 64MB of XDR to account for the OS at present. If indeed this guy is the same source, well...

Anyway I guess tomorrow I'll start digging on that as well, though I really think true or false, we'll know soon enough. Devs will address this directly one way or another - you just have to be ready to read the smoke signals.

[makeitlookreal]

I don't WANT to believe any of these rumors, but I am learning that with Sony it's becoming slightly difficult to think positively.

I really think the 96MB information MUST be false unless they are adding more RAM to the system which also is not very probable, but in my opinion slightly possible. If they added more RAM then it would not be as big of a problem or not one at all.

The SPE issue is potentially even worse, because a lot of developers are depending on those SPEs. If two more are suddenly yanked away it's going to hurt a lot of games. I just can't see that happening!

If they yank away three SPEs for the OS then I would hope that they delay the launch all together until they can shrink the die size small enough and get the yields high enough until they can put two CELL chips in the system.

Personally, I think if they waited until the middle of 2007 to launch the console they could do a LOT. They could have all the diodes they need for Blu-ray, utilize the 65nm process and get their yields up for it, tweak out the RSX with the new 65nm process, work on making the console smaller, reducing voltage, etc.

I just think that it's something they should consider. I don't think these rumors are true, but something in me makes me worried. If they have to use three SPEs for the OS and a whole bunch of RAM they need to re-work the system's design.

[liver_kick]

I agree but the guy providing the info is (supposedly) developer. The way he planted the info in the thread (from which this stems from) was kinda suspect though. Take a huge grain of salt with this no doubt :p

From what I've heard on that DopeyFish guy is he's likely "pro-bono". I'll leave it at that. ;)

Now I can't rule out he's heard something and decided to run with it. But "Cell=2.8ghz"? Yeah, that guy.

The SPE issue is potentially even worse, because a lot of developers are depending on those SPEs. If two more are suddenly yanked away it's going to hurt a lot of games. I just can't see that happening!

They most likely wouldn't be "yanked away", they simply wouldn't be in use to begin with, just like the RAM.

[Raijin]

From what I've heard on that DopeyFish guy is he's likely "pro-bono". I'll leave it at that. ;)

Now I can't rule out he's heard something and decided to run with it. But "Cell=2.8ghz"? Yeah, that guy.

What, It's Dopeyfish? looll, well he may have been right on the OS story, but the CELL story at 2.8Ghz was debunked to be complete BS.

[liver_kick]

What, It's Dopeyfish? looll, well he may have been right on the OS story, but the CELL story at 2.8Ghz was debunked to be complete BS.

I don't think he even confirmed the OS story. AFAIK someone else on B3D let it slip and he assumed it for his own, or somebody falsely attributed it to him. The guy is a hack as far as I'm concerned, but stranger things have happend I suppose.

[BlueTsunami]

The 2.8GHz Cell thing is totally a "one whos name shall not be spoken" thing. Provides entertainment on OA since he seems to pull an article that either alludes to it or pulls info from between the lines everyday.

Anyways, if anything, its what we see on screen that counts. Quickly glancing at the larger DMC4 pics that were just released, I like what I see :D

[CreativeWriter]

Maybe the OS takes 3 SPEs when not running a game... but I can't imagine reserving 3 SPEs during gameplay. What could they possibly be used for? We don't need that kind of power, even if IM, voicechat, etc, is integrated into the OS and always running. Unless there's some unannounced aspect of the OS that's vital to the PS3 experience that we don't know about, this sounds bogus. I guess there could conceivably be some kind of unknown online feature. TGS is in a few days, so hopefully we'll quash these rumors then with some updated facts.

[GodMachine_Iridius_Dio]

Deadmeat still posts there because you CANNOT be banned on OPA, and that's where much of the FUD begins. Too many half-experts/armchair-techies loud-mouth, opinionated idiots there who think they have a clue (and don't) ruine the place. There's too much speculation and opinion stated as fact that leaks out of there.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure this rumor originates there - There's new CELL FUD every week, much of which centers around the loss of more and more SPEs.

Realistically, though, you have to ask yourself, "Does XMB really need that much power to run?!".

Later

Dio

[makeitlookreal]

Would someone tell me what is OPA? What is that place? Can anyone provide me a link?

Now, back to the topic of these SPEs. I have no problem with the OS using ALL the power of the CELL when I don't have a game running! I don't mind that at all. But when the game starts I want the GAME ITSELF to have as much power as possible to utilize.

Also, developers have stated in various interviews that they are building their games with 6 free SPEs to use and one reserved for the OS. If Sony suddenly changed to having 3 SPEs reserved for the OS it would be a YANK that would harm many games.

[BlueTsunami]

Would someone tell me what is OPA? What is that place? Can anyone provide me a link?

Think of it as the Thunder Dome of the Internet. Where the population if made up of Dreamcast Vagabonds looking for a home and found solace in the Xbox360 and as a weapon for their hate against Sony.

Its a horrible place if you can't take constant FUD and Sony hate, though, theres a ragtag group of Sony fans fighting the good fight there.

[makeitlookreal]

Would you provide a link? What does OPA stand for by the way?

[BlueTsunami]

Would you provide a link? What does OPA stand for by the way?

Opa is just an internet personality that posted on there. A guy that had no life and (I believe) is a virgin and a focus of much ridicule but is lovable in some ways (don't post on there that much anymore).

and I'm not sure if I want to advertise it but what the hell

www.opa-ages.com

[Garfunkel]

opium-induced pedophilia ass#$ls

anyway, i think this is stupid, no way would 3 SPE's be needed, where is CPI?

[makeitlookreal]

CPI probably cannot comment on these issues due to NDAs. It seems like Sony's not letting the NDAs loosen up at all.

Thanks for the link BTW.

[BlueTsunami]

From what I've heard on that DopeyFish guy is he's likely "pro-bono". I'll leave it at that. ;)

Now I can't rule out he's heard something and decided to run with it. But "Cell=2.8ghz"? Yeah, that guy.

lol

I was talking to Bad_Boy on IRC and he brought to my attention the thread on B3D where you guys are bringing up his Kotaku links and how he seems to be editing them out.

In light of this news, I would disregard the info that came from him. Just wanted clarification and I got it :D

[JosVerstappen]

Even if the 3 SPE story would be true, that on itself says very little without any further details. It could theoreticly be that it is more convenient and efficient to use 3 SPE's for several different embedded OS tasks, but only for a very small usage-percentage per SPE.

In other words, in stead of sacrificing one single SPE for mostly OS bizniz (and heavily used on this one), there may also be an option that splitting all the things and tasks that have to be done in this respect to several SPE's may overall be faster and more efficient (in the end it is a parallel CPU suited for these kind of things), and thereby ending up with a more 'handsfree' OS-SPE to do more stuff than only OS-related things that it is now exclusively reserved for.

[xbdestroya]

In response to the rumor on B3D:

FWIW, that's not true at all.

So that's that! :smoke:

[yoshaw]

:lol: That's some high-level pwnage not witnessed everyday!! Bravo

[VG Aficionado]

:locked:

[makeitlookreal]

Vysez is a developer I assume?

I hope he is so this rumor can be put to rest once and for all. It sure does not sound likely in the first place.

[xbdestroya]

Vysez is a developer I assume?

I hope he is so this rumor can be put to rest once and for all. It sure does not sound likely in the first place.

No, he's not a game developer - but he remains always in very close contact with SCEE. He himself is not under NDA, but he wouldn't say anything that does not 100% reflect the present state of things at the time he says it.

[VG Aficionado]

Cell runs at 3.2 GHz, confirmed?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/snowcrash007/51976.jpg

[makeitlookreal]

Care to guess what those other frequencies represent in the PS3?

[xbdestroya]

Those are bus frequencies, and they are standard for the motherboard chipset components being quoted.

[edoshin]

I don't even understand why the console needs a whole SPE devoted to OS when consoles have never required an OS .. at least not in the traditional sense. I imagine its for the "new age" of gaming, where you would be playing your game and possibly chatting with your friends or maybe have things streamed to your game. Anyways .. even common sense dictates that if an OS were developed that required devoting 3 SPEs to run, then it should be junked, the team fired, and the OS re-coded from scratch. I mean .. that's a WHOLE LOT of money invested in Cell with some of the brightest engineers in the world, and you're going to have a bloated OS cripple it? Even OPA can't be that stupid to believe such nonsense can they?

[section]

I imagine its for the "new age" of gaming, where you would be playing your game and possibly chatting with your friends or maybe have things streamed to your gameYou're very much right. And there are many different things the PS3 OS can be burdened with, several software libraries can be used on an OS level which provide many basic functionalities which the programmers don't need to write themself, only implement what Sony provides. These could for example be network components, eyetoy support on OS level and so on.

[cpiasminc]

CPI probably cannot comment on these issues due to NDAs. It seems like Sony's not letting the NDAs loosen up at all.
Or... because he climbs into his bed and actually sleeps from time to time.

In any case, if it was true, it's news to me. That said, my expectations on having 3 SPEs taken up is basically that it has zero probability. No OS takes up a lot of compute time at all -- the only reason it would even need to reserve 1 SPE is so that it always has guaranteeable on-demand resources. The older idea that the OS can take a second one at random is obviously dreamt up by someone who doesn't understand a single thing about Cell's architecture. If they had, they'd realize that immediate context switches are something the SPEs ARE NOT DESIGNED TO DO.

I imagine its for the "new age" of gaming, where you would be playing your game and possibly chatting with your friends or maybe have things streamed to your game.
Pretty much. The vast majority of that memory it takes up is to hold onto pointless fluff like sound effects, UI skins, avatar images, etc. The functional part of the OS would only eat up a small fraction of that.

And if it's any indication, all previous Playstation OSes have taken up more memory on the devkit than on the retail unit. PSP is probably the best example since it is also loaded with fluff room for its 8 MB of resident memory -- On the devkit, you've got twice the system RAM of the retail PSP, but the second half is a mirror of the first, so the OS is taking up 8 MB... twice. PS2 devkits are a similar story.

[Sephiroth_VII]

Ahh, finally, the voice of reason! But you should know that you're not allowed to sleep this close to TGS. We need you to debunk the endless stream of fud that always comes withe a huge event like this.:whip:

So, we can expect the OS to clock in at 48 Mb?

[cpiasminc]

Ahh, finally, the voice of reason! But you should know that you're not allowed to sleep this close to TGS. We need you to debunk the endless stream of fud that always comes withe a huge event like this.:whip:
Hmmm... Well, I'll be trapped in meetings in various cities during TGS, so expect sporadic results at best.

So, we can expect the OS to clock in at 48 Mb?
A definite maybe. I'm actually not 100% sure about the reserved memory in VRAM -- if the OS gets its own rendertargets for the UI or something, there's a certain amount of VRAM you'd want for all the skins, fonts, wallpapers, etc.

[Smokey]

if they did that CPI would they take 24 from GDDR3 & 24 from XDR as they are splitting it now or would it all be XDR or GDDR3, i know you said it was a maybe :)

[xbdestroya]

Well, here's where the story ends I guess:

The OS needs to perform some (presumably audio) tasks on demand, and swaps the lowest priority SPE thread.
This is exactly how Xbox360 operates as well, hence the use of core 3, which I've seen reported from 5% to 25%.

Indeed only 1 SPE is fully reserved, but for whatever reason the OS needs to compute some small on-demand tasks on another SPE. This requires a full context switch of whatever is running on that SPE.

For those that don't understand, that means only 1 SPE is reserved - as previously known - but sometimes the OS may need to come in and take command of another SPE in order to run some other functions.

[lips]

Cell runs at 3.2 GHz, confirmed?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/snowcrash007/51976.jpg


133 ata for blu blu ray and sata1 for harddrive? wow, looks very good.

only 33mhz pci? so only 33mhz for all nic, wireless, blue tooth and usb2.0 connections? hmm...

[xbdestroya]

The main thing holding the hard drive back will be it's relatively slow 5400RPMs though, not it's interface.

[lips]

as an example, my harddrives are on a 3 gighz sata2 connection, but they are only 7200 rpm. sata frequency is good to have high if you have large cache at disk. ofcourse my raid array only accesses at 200 mb/s so much less than 3 gig. 750 mhz should be enough for a 20-30 meg/s drive access, imho.

[BlueTsunami]

For those that don't understand, that means only 1 SPE is reserved - as previously known - but sometimes the OS may need to come in and take command of another SPE in order to run some other functions.

I'm wondering if this "intervention" by the OS in terms of using that other SPE happens when one presses the Home Button (Playstation Button on the DS3)...

[yoshaw]

The main thing holding the hard drive back will be it's relatively slow 5400RPMs though, not it's interface.

Wait, wouldn't the PS3 HDD bay benefit those who replace the default version with off the shelf 7200rpm HDD's?

One more thing, I'm not sure if this is even possible but lemme ask anyway. Do you guys think Sony could lock the HDD speed to 5400rpm within the PS3 hardware to keep the game/visual experience even among all consumers?

[xbdestroya]

Wait, wouldn't the PS3 HDD bay benefit those who replace the default version with off the shelf 7200rpm HDD's?

No it definitely would benefit from a replacement 7200rpm drive; but remember that these are 2.5" laptop-sized drives, where 5400rpm is the standard vs the 7200 of the desktop world. 7200rpm 2.5" drives do exist, but they're a little rarer, and a little more expensive.

But now that you've mentioned it, hell that should be a great performance booster for those that do it.

[liver_kick]

No it definitely would benefit from a replacement 7200rpm drive; but remember that these are 2.5" laptop-sized drives, where 5400rpm is the standard vs the 7200 of the desktop world. 7200rpm 2.5" drives do exist, but they're a little rarer, and a little more expensive.

But now that you've mentioned it, hell that should be a great performance booster for those that do it.

I was wondering how Sony's universal storage approach might effect development. Its great that studios can assume every console has an hdd, but would certain aspects be sensitive to having a lowest common drive speed/transfer (streaming and such)?

[yoshaw]

No it definitely would benefit from a replacement 7200rpm drive; but remember that these are 2.5" laptop-sized drives, where 5400rpm is the standard vs the 7200 of the desktop world. 7200rpm 2.5" drives do exist, but they're a little rarer, and a little more expensive.

But now that you've mentioned it, hell that should be a great performance booster for those that do it.

Thanks Xb. They will be expensive no doubt but I've got good news for all future PS3 owners. I think the prices for 2.5HDD's are about to fall very soon.

Although I know this doesn't belong here but Seagate just made a breakthrough in their labs. Not sure when it'd appear on storeshelves but here's the gist of it.

SEAGATE BREAKS WORLD MAGNETIC RECORDING DENSITY RECORD - 421 GBITS PER SQUARE INCH EQUIVALENT TO STORING 4,000 HOURS OF DIGITAL VIDEO ON YOUR PC

Achievement underscores strong advancement and future for hard disc drive storage

SCOTTS VALLEY, Calif.—15 September 2006— Seagate Technology (NYSE: STX) today announced the results of a magnetic recording demonstration, setting a world record of 421 Gbits per square inch (421 Gbit/in2). The demonstration used perpendicular recording heads and media created with currently available production equipment that validates Seagate's ability to scale the technology for the foreseeable future without major technology changes or capital additions.

....At the demonstrated density level, Seagate expects the capacity ranges to result in solutions ranging in 40GB to 275GB for 1-and 1.8-inch consumer electronics drives, 500GB for 2.5-inch notebook drives, and nearly 2.5TB for 3.5-inch desktop and enterprise class drives.

http://www.seagate.com/cda/newsinfo/newsroom/releases/article/0,1121,3301,00.html

[makeitlookreal]

This is simply amazing! I remember when I was a teenager about 10 years ago when my family purchased our first modern PC and it has 700MB of storage. Now we are getting in the terrabyte range? This is really, really interesting.

However, for purposes of computing I'm more interested in faster kinds of RAM or Magnetic RAM. There are a bunch of technologies out there and it is difficult to keep up with all of them.

This announcment by seagate really makes me think that the PS3 might get a larger HDD than what we were told.

[xbdestroya]

Hard drive prices are always falling, such that you can get more storage for the same price you once paid, but the mechanical and power requirements of 7200 2.5" inch drives - which plays a role in their laptop adoption - will keep those particular drives expensive for some time longer.

So greatly increased storage may become afforable in a sense, but faster storage will still be an expensive proposition of sorts.

[Smokey]

heres a write up (speed comparisons) for 7200 2.5i

http://www.barefeats.com/hard56.html

[makeitlookreal]

By the way, how are RAM prices doing these days? Are they still falling pretty steadily?

[xbdestroya]

Smokey very relevant link there! :smoke:

[Smokey]

yeah i think i will be updating to a 7200 HDD. especially if it does make a difference like you think it should XB

[makeitlookreal]

What they REALLY need to do is start making laptops with graphics card that are upgradable. Anyway, back to the PS3, it's OS, and it's SPEs. What cool CELL demos do you think we will see at E3? The Getaway demo that was running on the CELL all by itself was pretty amazing. Do you think we might see something similiar but for another game?

[xbdestroya]

Well, for load times, and non-gaming functionality, definitely.