Toshiba Motion Capture Tech.

[Old_Timer!]

source: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6159215.html?tag=latestnews;title;4
Toshiba unveils Cell-based motion-capture system
Electronics giant shows off real-time, "markerless" mo-cap at Japanese electronics show.
By Brendan Sinclair, GameSpot
Posted Oct 3, 2006 11:09 am PT

Besides powering Sony's next-generation PlayStation 3 console, the multicore Cell microprocessor can be used in a variety of other electronics. Toshiba showed off one application in the form of a motion-capture system today at CEATEC (Combined Exhibition of Advanced Technologies), Japan's largest consumer electronics show. Tech-On, a Web site operated by Nikkei Business Publications Inc., was on the scene to provide details.

Dubbed "Markerless Motion Capture SHADOW," the system does not require the markers or sensors used in traditional motion-capture technology. Rather, movement is captured by a camera in real time. There is apparently a lag of about a second during which the captured data is processed, but even so, Toshiba was able to use the system in a simple game that had players ducking and fending off enemy characters.
We had this topic awhile back, I couldn't find it so I made this update

[BruceWayneIII]

A lag of a second? That's a lot in a game...

[Old_Timer!]

Well the tech they showed wasn't gonna be used for a game like say RFOM, I remember in the original video they call it Toshiba Mirror and they had a demo with a talking pinapple head.

[VG Aficionado]

It's not an accurately measured lag anyway.

Well the tech they showed wasn't gonna be used for a game like say RFOM, I remember in the original video they call it Toshiba Mirror and they had a demo with a talking pinapple head.And the people changing their hairstyles in real time =-o

[BruceWayneIII]

Maybe that didn't come out right. I'm definately amazed by the technology and especially the 'mirror', but input lag in a game (they mention a game in the article) is very important. Just look at the lag in HDTVs (the cheap ones without a 'game mode'). It can really spoil everything. Imagine a mouse with a lag of 200 ms...

[VG Aficionado]

Just look at the lag in HDTVs (the cheap ones without a 'game mode'). It can really spoil everything. Imagine a mouse with a lag of 200 ms...Sorry, but the "game mode" doesn't solve any kind of lag at all, you're probably confusing two different things. Not that I'm essentially disagreeing with you though, lag mustn't be perceptible for the user in most cases.

P.S. The "game mode" is just a gimmick.

[masteratt]

I probably got the names mixed up but isn't Toshiba the "main" supporter of HD-DVD?
If I got the names right- Toshiba is against Sony in the Blu-Ray vd HD-DVD war but are working alongside them on The Cell. This just goes to show you guys that it's all business, nothing personal (unlike fans of the companies...)


(just a friendly littler reminder :p)

[VG Aficionado]

I probably got the names mixed up but isn't Toshiba the "main" supporter of HD-DVD?
If I got the names right- Toshiba is against Sony in the Blu-Ray vd HD-DVD war but are working alongside them on The Cell. This just goes to show you guys that it's all business, nothing personal (unlike fans of the companies...)

(just a friendly littler reminder :p)Yeah, that's not weird at all: Sony recommends installing Windows XP on their VAIO laptops, Blu-ray has a MS licensed codec, PSP plays WMA files... And I'm sure Microsoft is also favourable to Sony in a number of ways.

[BruceWayneIII]

Sorry, but the "game mode" doesn't solve any kind of lag at all, you're probably confusing two different things. Not that I'm disagreeing with you though, lag mustn't be perceptible for the user in most cases.

P.S. The "game mode" is just a gimmick.

A gimmick? Okay, that's not what I heard. I thought it was widely known that it drastically reduces the processing time of the image by skipping filters and image refinement processes. But that would only affect low-lag games like fighting games etc.

Glad to hear if it's not a real problem at all.

[Z]

A lag of a second? That's a lot in a game...
irrelivant. they are talking about taking the captures 'live' from the acters. why in the world would you get any animation lag in a game? :tardbang:

[BruceWayneIII]

irrelivant. they are talking about taking the captures 'live' from the acters. why in the world would you get any animation lag in a game? :tardbang:

Read the article again. I was commenting on the 'simple game' the article mentions using the technology. That's where a lag of a second isn't a great thing...


Toshiba was able to use the system in a simple game that had players ducking and fending off enemy characters.

[VG Aficionado]

A gimmick? Okay, that's not what I heard. I thought it was widely known that it drastically reduces the processing time of the image by skipping filters and image refinement processes. But that would only affect low-lag games like fighting games etc.Unless I'm really wrong, that's far from the truth. I have an HDTV with "game mode" and believe me, the only thing that it does is reducing the brightness to obtain better blacks (:dur:) and any other improvements you've heard of simply aren't there. I've made some tests and I've concluded that I definately prefer using custom settings rather than "game mode" settings. I see no lag in any case.

[BruceWayneIII]

Unless I'm really wrong, that's far from the truth. I have an HDTV with "game mode" and believe me, the only thing that it does is reducing the brightness to obtain better blacks (:dur:) and any other improvements you've heard of simply aren't there. I've made some tests and I've concluded that I definately prefer using custom settings rather than "game mode" settings. I see no lag in any case.

Hmmm, just hope there isn't any noticeable gaming-lag compared to CRTs...

[VG Aficionado]

Hmmm, just hope there isn't any noticeable gaming-lag compared to CRTs...If you mean lag, i.e. the fact that you press the kick button and you'd notice the character takes a 3/10 of a second to move (meaning that the sound will not match the picture because of the lag), no, nothing like that happens.

If you mean response time, i.e. the fact that there's some ghosting because the picture can't be refreshed quickly enough so that you won't see any kind of non-artificial motion blur, it is still noticeable nowadays on LCD HDTVs compared to any kind of CRT TV, but it's not a big deal in most cases as long as it's below 16 ms. Unless you're really demanding, that is.

[BruceWayneIII]

If you mean lag, i.e. the fact that you press the kick button and you'd notice the character takes a 3/10 of a second to move (meaning that the sound will not match the picture because of the lag), no, nothing like that happens.

If you mean response time, i.e. the fact that there's some ghosting because the picture can't be refreshed quickly enough so that you won't see any kind of non-artificial motion blur, it is still noticeable nowadays on LCD HDTVs compared to any kind of CRT TV, but it's not a big deal in most cases as long as it's below 16 ms.

Yeah, I'm only concerned about the accumulated time from user input to action on the screen. I've heard reports about lag-sensitive games where this was an issue.

Didn't bother finding all the articles, but here's one:

http://gear.ign.com/articles/720/720303p1.html


I'm fully aware of response time regarding LCDs and CRTs, but thank you for asking anyway.

[VG Aficionado]

Yeah, I'm only concerned about the accumulated time from user input to action on the screen. I've heard reports about lag-sensitive games where this was an issue.I can at least confirm you that I haven't experienced this issue myself :) However, games that use motion sensing, including Wii and PS3 games, do show some lag between the input and the action. I'd love to know why since I'm not too sure whether it's not related to a custom setting by the developers for a good reason (too much and too quick sensitivity that prevents it from being easily playable?). I'd also love to know whether immediate response would be possible while playing, even if it was more difficult to get under control.

[BruceWayneIII]

^^ I updated my previous post with a link...
Maybe you don't have a Samsung then?

[VG Aficionado]

^^ I updated my previous post with a link...
Maybe you don't have a Samsung then?Actually, my HDTV is a Samsung one, and it's certainly not the most expensive one out there. Now I wonder whether I should have gotten a Bravia for the same price with less noticeable ghosting (I chose Samsung since it seemed to have more features) or whether it'll be less painful to sell it in a couple years time to get a SED HDTV.

By the way, we've derailed this thread :laugh:

[BruceWayneIII]

Actually, my HDTV is a Samsung one, and it's certainly not the most expensive one out there. Now I wonder whether I should have gotten a Bravia for the same price with less noticeable ghosting (I chose Samsung since it seemed to have more features) or whether it'll be less painful to sell it in a couple years time to get a SED HDTV.

By the way, we've derailed this thread :laugh:

I don't know if I should buy the 46" X2000 Bravia 1080p in March (European launch) or buy a cheaper whatever-screen until SED or Laser arrives...

Woops, indeed we did derail it....Sorry guys, move on :hugegrin:

[LiquidEagle]

What I think is cool about this is how Toshiba & Sony work so well together on the Cell despite their differences over HD-DVD and Blu Ray. I like how they seem to respect each other enough and see enough of a benefit to do stuff like this, even though they're in a format war against each other. Just my opinion :-p

Neat technology though :)

[Viano]

well, this is the future of customization

[Z]

Read the article again. I was commenting on the 'simple game' the article mentions using the technology. That's where a lag of a second isn't a great thing...
what do you think the whole point of this simple game demonstration is? to show off the accuracy of the motion grabs, not the game itself. you can say the game has terrible FX, sound, goofy designs, etc. but it is all pass the point.

now, speaking of the actuall technology, I wounder just how accurate it is. is this a demo showing off how Cell can crunsh numbers and render in real-time, or is this a demonstration of a new motion capture method that utilizes Cells power?
if it is the first, this method may not be practically used in game-making. if it is the latter, then I am very excited since this will open up and ease up animation in games and CG movies.

though we remember the hair-styles changing in real time using Cell, this is much more than that. during that same hair demo, they showed off models walking and Cell capturing their movement and translating it to a 3D model...of the model.

[Old_Timer!]

Here is one article from last year's Ceatec, with video
source: http://www.ps3focus.com/archives/131
source: http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20051013/109623/

[raVen]

Sounds like create you own touchdown celebration to me.

[Z]

that actually gives me an idea. though face, clothes and object mapping (like cars and what not) are mentioned for some PS3 games, they may take that a step further in the future. maybe you can send your video and they will translate your animation as a victory dance or something to some game? maybe they will upgrade the camera, or it could be able to do it from the get go, so you can do your own animations at home. maybe PS3 needs a simple firmare update with a program that will translate your Camera videos into digital animations and then you can use it in games and else where like interactive avatars and what not.

hmm...

[Old_Timer!]

LoL, yup Sony/Toshiba had it all planned out. Nintendo stole the idea showed their low tech version and called it Mii...... ok maybe not