Immersion Antagonizing Sony, or Trying to Help out?

[LiquidEagle]

http://www.gamedaily.com/news/?id=11393

Kinda on the long side so I didn't put any quotes in here, but it's a response from Immersion's president Vic Viegas to the interview (http://forums.e-mpire.com/showpost.php?p=1255439&postcount=191) done with Kaz Hirai recently.

So whom should we believe? Will it really raise the cost like Sony says? The way Kaz put it in the interview, choosing an input feature over a feedback one, made sense to me. It actually made me happy, that Sony's making a decision like that to further our game experience rather than keep us in the same old rumble-land... Cost-wise I can see that really being an issue, but according to Vic Viegas of Immersion, it's not.

I'm not sure who's really on the more admirable side (I can't exactly call either one "right" ...) of this lawsuit, as I don't know if Sony really did steal technology from Immersion or not. I do know that Immersion waited for a long time to file their suit which shows a greater concern for the money they're trying to make rather than the technology they claim they want to protect. Shady, IMO...

Even so, I try not to just ignore everything Immersion says based on those grounds, so I wonder if this guy has a point. He's very good at popping up the second Kaz Hirai/Sony make mention of rumble, saying he can prove them wrong, but Sony would have to work with them, it just seems weird to me. To me it seems like he's pretty much antagonizing them by constantly bringing his company into the picture and saying they have the solution to Sony's problems, but only if Sony pays them lots of money to drop their lawsuit... Maybe it's just me but I don't think I'd like that idea if I were Sony. They've been appealing the ruling in favor of Immersion for a few years now I think, so does it sound like they're very keen on buddying up with Immersion?

I want you guys' opinions :)

....I sure hope this wasn't posted already....

[cliffbo]

IMO Immersion are worried they are missing out on a big payday and although kaz hirai has a point about the cost i believe the cost he is talking about is more to do with saving sony money than the consumer also i believe that putting rumble back in the controller would be more problematical than beneficial as the battery life would be reduced considerably also the point made about interfering with motion control maybe valid as nintendo's wii uses an external sensor bar to aid the motion control and having it internal to the controller could cause a few problems with the sensitivity of the device.

:)

[masteratt]

All the reasons Sony gave make graet sense to me. I doin't care weather they are lying or not as those "fake reasons" (if they are fake) are good enough to be the truth.
And as one of my favourite saying goes "When a lie is loved, it becomes the truth." so that's waht's going on in my case. I don't want rumble back, I don't care if Sony is giving us BS reasons for having no rumble.

Now to talk about Immersion. Sony I believe shipped over 200Million controllers with the PS brand and I don't know how much Immersion gets but they are dumbasses to get on Sony's bad side.
I think Sony might be in the wrong but they know sooner or later Immersion will say "Oh shit, if we drop this lawsuit, we can make shit loads of money! let's stop fighting Sony and get on their good side"
But tough shit because unless we are in for a big surprise come October event, Immersion missed their chance to go on the good side of Sony. Tough shit morons, Sony and the consumers win :)

Rumble was great for 10years but let's move on!

[Yo MaMa84]

Immersion should leave Sony alone......i hate bastards like that. Your suing them, but trying to work with them at the same time. Assleaks

[LiquidEagle]

Immersion doesn't "get" anything right now, they're owed $90+ million, which Sony is constantly appealing to try & get rid of.

I dunno about you though, but if I was Immersion and I honestly had created this technology Sony was basically stealing (hypothetical situation, I'm not saying Sony really did steal or not), I'd be extremely peeved that I would then have to grovel at Sony's feet for a chance to work with them on my own technology!

Kaz's explanation was good enough for me too, but I don't like to go in ignorance of the truth of the matter because it's convenient for Sony... That's why I posted this.

Good point Cliff, I think Sony's already giving us a really good deal on the price of the controller (if it's $40 in Japan sold separately, we're getting a fantastic deal), so to add rumble would just make it really hard to sell it at that same price since it probably is already.

[VG Aficionado]

Now to talk about Immersion. Sony I believe shipped over 200Million controllers with the PS brandActually, they've manufactured around 400 million.

[cliffbo]

i personally don`t think sony are the wrong as they would surely have paid up by now if they were as it`s costing them more than it`s worth to appeal and counter sue so it would have been simpler for them to pay up and forget it.
it would have allowed them the option of using rumble in future products without all have and hassle they have had.

you will have noticed that they have not been sued in any other place in the world other than the usa at least not successfully and the fact that immersion waited such a long time to lay claim to royalties seems suspect to say the least especially as no-one had heard of or seen any immersion patents or products pertaining to gaming before they made their claim against sony the only mention of immersions patents before their claim were for medical equipment i suspect that they acquired the patents then sat on them until they could make a killing as they say and sony was the prey i know this is a conspiracy theory but TMO.

:)

[venomv]

If it would even add few cents to the cost of every control they make (especially the ones packaged in with the consule) then it will add up fast, you have to think if it like that.

[edoshin]

I highly doubt Sony stole anything from Immersion. I can believe that both technologies were developed independently and were similiar enough that the company's patent that was approved first would claim ownership.

Immersion chose to play hardball rather than work to some kind of compromise. Sony refused to cave. Gamers left without rumble.

[EvilTaru]

Immersion needs to shut the smurf up and lower their royalties to a point where Sony can reasonably afford given Sony is already losing money on every PS3, it's all about the bottomline for Sony, but if Immersion keeps being a bunch of assholes, it can very well go beyond just a matter of money, because nobody wants to do business with assholes, and the folks at Immersion right now are a bunch of assholes.

[TheGreenElf]

Business is primarily done between assholes...what do you think Sony is? Anyways I'd say Immersion has done nothing wrong, they want what is owed, and they are working for what fans want. Tilt-sensing...is at this point and will most likely remain nothing more than a stupid gimmick to try and rival Nintendo so the uninformed Gamestop employee or whomever can say "Well this PS3 has motion sensing just like the revolution" or something along those lines, as I always heard them saying stuff equally stupid...

[masteratt]

It's funny how PS3 fans always hear EB employees bad mouth PS3 and praise Wii/X360 and the Wii fans always hear EB employees bad mouth Wii and praise PS3.

This must be a work of a greater power. Just when a Wii fan walks into EB, the employee who hates the Wii stands at the counter but as soon a PS3 fan walks in, they quickly put a PS3 hating employee at the counter!

[Z]

Cliffbo
IMO Immersion are worried they are missing out on a big payday and although kaz hirai has a point about the cost i believe the cost he is talking about is more to do with saving sony money than the consumer also i believe that putting rumble back in the controller would be more problematical than beneficial as the battery life would be reduced considerably also the point made about interfering with motion control maybe valid as nintendo's wii uses an external sensor bar to aid the motion control and having it internal to the controller could cause a few problems with the sensitivity of the device.
exactly.
Evil Taru
Immersion needs to shut the smurf up and lower their royalties to a point where Sony can reasonably afford given Sony is already losing money on every PS3, it's all about the bottomline for Sony, but if Immersion keeps being a bunch of assholes, it can very well go beyond just a matter of money, because nobody wants to do business with assholes, and the folks at Immersion right now are a bunch of assholes.
again, I agree. Sony will either make their own method or go to a different firm to do it then to go back to those people. I honestly do not believe Sony knowingly used a patented method as that is extremely dumb.
it is just a matter of crossing some patent without realizing it thanks to the ever so flawless US patent system. it seems you can't even make a cup without infringing two douzen patents...

what I am grinning about is the feeling that Immersion must be going throw knowing they will miss out on a cash cow like PS3. every mker would want to make something for the next big thing, and PS3's future certainly looks very bright indeed. you can feel how desperate they are running polls, making appearences on sites, etc. so sad. they should have gone with dignity. it is so sad that it is almost pathetic.

they obviously don't know the the f*** their messing with.

[Carlos]

what I am grinning about is the feeling that Immersion must be going throw knowing they will miss out on a cash cow like PS3. every mker would want to make something for the next big thing, and PS3's future certainly looks very bright indeed. you can feel how desperate they are running polls, making appearences on sites, etc. so sad. they should have gone with dignity. it is so sad that it is almost pathetic.
Yep, I agree.

I think they would have gone in a better position, if they had just shut their mouths, let go of the lawsuit, and work with them on making the tilt sensoring chip, and Sony will wake up, and pay them in TIME.

[Pluto]

Anything to keep their names in gaming news, it seems.

If Sony really wanted to implement rumble, it would've been done already. See ya later, Immersion. :)

And I really don't appreciate how they seem to be representing "the voice of gamers" to justify their need for profits. Tsk, tsk.

[Domination]

http://www.gamedaily.com/news/?id=11393

Kinda on the long side so I didn't put any quotes in here, but it's a response from Immersion's president Vic Viegas to the interview (http://forums.e-mpire.com/showpost.php?p=1255439&postcount=191) done with Kaz Hirai recently.

So whom should we believe? Will it really raise the cost like Sony says? The way Kaz put it in the interview, choosing an input feature over a feedback one, made sense to me. It actually made me happy, that Sony's making a decision like that to further our game experience rather than keep us in the same old rumble-land... Cost-wise I can see that really being an issue, but according to Vic Viegas of Immersion, it's not.

I'm not sure who's really on the more admirable side (I can't exactly call either one "right" ...) of this lawsuit, as I don't know if Sony really did steal technology from Immersion or not. I do know that Immersion waited for a long time to file their suit which shows a greater concern for the money they're trying to make rather than the technology they claim they want to protect. Shady, IMO...

Even so, I try not to just ignore everything Immersion says based on those grounds, so I wonder if this guy has a point. He's very good at popping up the second Kaz Hirai/Sony make mention of rumble, saying he can prove them wrong, but Sony would have to work with them, it just seems weird to me. To me it seems like he's pretty much antagonizing them by constantly bringing his company into the picture and saying they have the solution to Sony's problems, but only if Sony pays them lots of money to drop their lawsuit... Maybe it's just me but I don't think I'd like that idea if I were Sony. They've been appealing the ruling in favor of Immersion for a few years now I think, so does it sound like they're very keen on buddying up with Immersion?

I want you guys' opinions :)

....I sure hope this wasn't posted already....

As much as I would like to have rumble back, I can only see this as a desperate cry coming from Immersion. Every time they do this, they put themselves more and more at Sony's mercy, and as a result, those in power knowing this will only make you eat from their hand while prolonging the process at the very sametime. Not good, Immersion...

By Sony being a hardware/electronics supplier, I can easily see them coming up with their own solution.

Business is primarily done between assholes...what do you think Sony is? Anyways I'd say Immersion has done nothing wrong, they want what is owed, and they are working for what fans want. Tilt-sensing...is at this point and will most likely remain nothing more than a stupid gimmick to try and rival Nintendo so the uninformed Gamestop employee or whomever can say "Well this PS3 has motion sensing just like the revolution" or something along those lines, as I always heard them saying stuff equally stupid...

You're kidding, right? I mean, if both consoles support the feature, with Nintendo in an even greater position since the Wii-mote is all the next Nintendo console revolves around compared to the other competitors - especially Sony, wouldn't this make the Wii-mote, or the system as a whole, just a gimmick? If not, then I believe you could be contradicting yourself in this case.

IMO, I don't think motion sensitive controllers are a gimmick at all because it allows developers to do things that weren't as possible before. But if they are gimmicks, as you say, then this would make the analogue sticks a gimmick, too since it serves nothing more than an alternative solution to the D-pad - really no different from what tilt does for the both of 'em.

[LiquidEagle]

I see a lot of people are seeing this as a cry from Immersion for a partnership with Sony or something along those lines, but could it also be that Immersion is taking more of the offensive here? The lawsuit so far has gone in their favor despite a few appeals, so I imagine they're pretty confident in their position... Don't you think they're kind of trying to make Sony look more like liars in that they come up to disprove/try to disprove any major comment Sony makes on rumble/tilt compatibility? That's why I see them more at odds with Sony and their comments feel more bitter than they are begging for a partnership with Sony... maybe that's just me though.

GreenElf, maybe you should be glad they have anything at all to say about next-gen :-p. I've seen many employees (one of which I work with) who honestly doesn't know anything about the next-gen consoles, so I have to drop what I'm doing to take the customer and explain the differences and features of a console. Fortunately I didn't tell anybody that the Wii can play DVD movies before I found out it doesn't :laugh: . Anyways, misinformation is abound... yet somehow I've never heard anymisinformation really slam the 360 yet! *sigh* hehe

Anyways, let's forget here that Sony is the leader of the market and see this at its core where there are two companies butting heads over technology...do you think things would go the same way or do you think Immersion truly is just a company of jerks out to get money? I'm a big Sony fan and a loyal supporter of Sony, but I don't want to risk being blind to the facts that Sony may have indeed stolen technology from Immersion... Does anybody know where I can find an article or something on Sony's stance in the issue?

[vdo]

I was wondering why Nintendo, with having some sort of rumble in it's Wiimote was not (at least anywhere that I could find) being harassed by Immersion. IIRC, there was a recent article where Immersion said that they have not yet got around to seeing if the Wiimote violated their patents.

And if Nintendo was thinking they got around the patents, Immersions take on potential controller developers is this:

With 500 different patents, would-be manufacturers of force-feedback peripherals had best check with Immersion before getting too deep into product development. Schaffer said that it wouldn't be "absolutely impossible for anyone to design around every single one of our patents, but it's probably pretty difficult."

source:
next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2729&Itemid=32

I thought that maybe Immersion was waiting till a millions of Wii's were sold and then go after them, but then came across an older article - I don't know if people have seen this or remember it - but it talks again about how Immersion "has not yet gotten around to it" with even Nintendos older controllers way back then. Looking at the article it makes me wonder if they will ever get around to it.

Some key points are:

why not include Nintendo, especially given the fact that Nintendo claims the feedback technology employed in all modern games controllers is its own?

US Immersion Corp CEO Victor Viegas:
“We never analysed Nintendo products.” Is the more-than surprising answer offered. “There is, I believe, a difference in the technologies used but we never investigated those of Nintendo.”

...

Then on July 25, 2003, Immersion contemporaneously executed a series of agreements with Microsoft that:

1. Settled Immersion’s lawsuit against Microsoft
2. Granted Microsoft a worldwide royalty-free, irrevocable license to Immersion’s portfolio with Microsoft splashing out around $6 million on a 10% stake in Immersion
3. Provided Microsoft with sublicense rights to pursue certain license arrangements directly with third parties including Sony Computer Entertainment which, if consummated, would result in payments to Immersion.

At this point, Microsoft decided to play its hand. It relented to Immersion’s assurances that technologies employed within the Xbox controller, hardware and related software infringed on established patents...In doing this, Microsoft effectively made it’s settlement with Immersion a test case, a case that would then be used against Sony. What’s more, it put itself in a position to demand payments from Sony on all PlayStation hardware, peripherals and software sold, on an ongoing basis. This weeks ruling saw Microsoft net around $8 million. The shares in Immersion have also jumped, with a return of around $6 million.

It seems beyond the realms of possibility that Microsoft didn’t have this roadmap into the very fabric of the PlayStation business model mapped-out from the start. When this was put to Viegas he simply said, “I cannot argue with the logic in what you say. Microsoft took full advantage of the opportunity offered to it and was fair in its dealings with us throughout.”

source: news.spong.com/article/8511

So this could be why Nintendo is being spared. I think MS purposely settled to establish legal precedence to be used against Sony in court. I mean you have the CEO of Immersion agreeing with it. So this is not just Sony vs Immersion. MS is also able to get money from Sony over this (and has as can be seen in the article), and so Sony is playing hardball with them on this.

[Z]

Business is primarily done between assholes...what do you think Sony is?
in a Fortune poll a while back, they asked companies and business firms what were the best companies to deal with. they picked the top five best companies. Coca-cola got first place. Sony got second or third place (I don't remember which was it exactly, but I remember being surprised).
read all the dev comments about doing business with Sony. read on why Factor 5 went with Sony. find out why Insomniac made everygame in their history on a Sony platform. tell me how come Ninja Theory wanted Sony after seeing a number of alternatives. and if you think it is all about the money, they should all have went to MS.
do you know how many devs took their projects to PS3 while the system isn't even out yet? do you know why Sony is the leader in the console space? do you know why they have great products and great partnerships worldwide?

let me just tell you one thing: few companies in the world are as visionary and as dedicated as Sony.

[LiquidEagle]

Do you have a link for that poll, Z? I'd love to read it :)

[Domination]

I was wondering why Nintendo, with having some sort of rumble in it's Wiimote was not (at least anywhere that I could find) being harassed by Immersion. IIRC, there was a recent article where Immersion said that they have not yet got around to seeing if the Wiimote violated their patents.

And if Nintendo was thinking they got around the patents, Immersions take on potential controller developers is this:



source:
next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2729&Itemid=32

I thought that maybe Immersion was waiting till a millions of Wii's were sold and then go after them, but then came across an older article - I don't know if people have seen this or remember it - but it talks again about how Immersion "has not yet gotten around to it" with even Nintendos older controllers way back then. Looking at the article it makes me wonder if they will ever get around to it.

Some key points are:



source: news.spong.com/article/8511

So this could be why Nintendo is being spared. I think MS purposely settled to establish legal precedence to be used against Sony in court. I mean you have the CEO of Immersion agreeing with it. So this is not just Sony vs Immersion. MS is also able to get money from Sony over this (and has as can be seen in the article), and so Sony is playing hardball with them on this.

Not really. I'm not entirely sure which interview it was, although I believe it could have been one of their not too recent ones, but it was said that Microsoft did not have enough stock or any at all to do this. If it wasn't so late, I would probably direct you to a source.

[Z]

it was published in their magazine a few years back. I read about the results in a local newspaper. :)

[vdo]

Not really. I'm not entirely sure which interview it was, although I believe it could have been one of their not too recent ones, but it was said that Microsoft did not have enough stock or any at all to do this. If it wasn't so late, I would probably direct you to a source.

OK, maybe things have changed since that article since it is from 2005. But it does say that at the time:

What’s more, it put itself in a position to demand payments from Sony on all PlayStation hardware, peripherals and software sold, on an ongoing basis. This weeks ruling saw Microsoft net around $8 million.

So maybe they are no longer in the position to demand payments, but it looks like they benefited from the ruling (unless the article is mistaken). Maybe the benefit was in the form of Immersion stock that they held increasing, which would then mean that they did not directly receive money from Sony as a result of the ruling.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

My impression is the immersion prez is trying to make sony look like the badguy to put media and consumer pressure on them. That's all. His rebuttals surface realllly fast. I'm not talking about whether or not they're right in suing sony (probably are), but whenever Sony defends themselves on the issue they're chomping at the bit to spin it back around at them. He's still looking out for number 1, as much as sony or anyone else is.

[Viper]

as nintendo's wii uses an external sensor bar to aid the motion control
No it doesn't. The senor bar is for the pointing system and to calculate 3D space. It still has an accelerometer inside just like the SIXAXIS. All motion detecting, tilt and acceleration calculations are internal to the controller.


Immersion Corp never went after Nintendo because it created it's own technology and has had it patented for 10 years now.

Sony claiming they didn't add rumble because it would make the controller too expensive is a joke. Battery life, weight, space, etc....those are valid reasons.

[chrismt]

The HDIP camera (eyetoy 2.0?) will in all likelihood be able to calculate 3D space too, possibly with those two black holes on it.

I guess the reason everyone notices the lack of weight behind the SIXAXIS is because of the lack of rumble, which could also add to the player's involvement with the game rather than the controller as they wouldn't be noticing the weight as much.

I'm sure they could do a workaround with space issues, though it would likely be difficult (similar to a redesign of the PSP).

Would adding rumble make much of an issue towards battery life though? Would it only cut one or two hours, or five to six?

I suppose Sony has to look at the cost of developing their own technology, and see if the lack of rumble would have a negligible impact on sales or if it's still a big issue after launch. If it proves to be a breaking point, I'm sure Sony will immediately look into releasing a controller with the adding features as they can't risk the sales dying for the PS3, with as much invested in it as it has. So, I guess if you want the controller to have rumble bitch LOUD after launch. If you think about it too, third parties won't release a controller with rumble for a while at least if no games support it.

[vdo]

Immersion Corp never went after Nintendo because it created it's own technology and has had it patented for 10 years now.

Immersion supposedly has over 500 patents that they say would be difficult for any controller manufacturer to get around. So if that is the case either Nintendos tech is so completely different that it somehow does what Immersion says is almost impossible and has nothing to do with Immersions patents OR it does have something in common with their patents, but as you say, Nintendo had the tech patented earlier. But if that were the case then some of Immersions patents would be invalid and/or Nintendo could sue Immersion.

So let's say that Nintendo's patents have nothing to do with Immersion's and that is how Immersion was able to patent ideas on this that were later than Nintendo. Couldn't Sony then find a way to create its own technology? I find it hard to believe that Nintendo could have different tech, yet at the same time Sony would not possibly be able create its own tech. Maybe they could create their own tech, but it really is too expensive to use that tech rather than Immersions cheaper tech.

[Z]

Couldn't Sony then find a way to create its own technology?
of course they can, and they stated so. there are also other companies that can do it for you.
the question is why they didn't include rumble even without Immersion?
the other , and more important, question is would PS3 games ever support rumble at all be it through 3rd party pads or later revisions on the main pad.

[Maya 5.0]

That's the big question there.Because if a 3rd party controller were to show up with rumble then what percentage of games will have the option for it?Will the rumble feature turn out to be like the HDD in the PS2 where is never gets used in games since it was not standard.

[masteratt]

If we don't see it at launch, we will never see it is my take on it. Other than the HDD, Sony doesn't want to make a mess of their consoles (hence why PS is always more expensive as everything is in the box).

I don't think Sony will bother altough they did release analogue stick controllers few years after the release of PS1 didn't they?

[chrismt]

Yeah.

I hope that they eventually include rumble as long as it doesn't severely affect battery life. It's possible with enough consumer complaints post-launch. I also hope that the BR drive jumps to 4X-6X later in PS3's hardware revisions to both reduce load times tremendously and further stimulate sales.

[TheGreenElf]

It's funny how PS3 fans always hear EB employees bad mouth PS3 and praise Wii/X360 and the Wii fans always hear EB employees bad mouth Wii and praise PS3.

This must be a work of a greater power. Just when a Wii fan walks into EB, the employee who hates the Wii stands at the counter but as soon a PS3 fan walks in, they quickly put a PS3 hating employee at the counter!
No, I wasn't talking about Wii or PS3 or any next gen system. I'm speaking on GC/PS2/Xbox. I always heard..."Gamecube doesn't have very good graphics compared to the PS2 or Xbox...", as well as "Xbox has more games than the other systems." And quite frequently as well...

[Viper]

I've stated since the beginnning of the debate that Sony should persue their own tech.

Does IC have 500 patents altogether or 500 patents soley based on vibration feedback?

Vdo, it's possible Nintendo could sue IC. You know what would be ironic as hell? If Nintendo sued IC for patent infringment and it was the same patents IC sued Sony for.

[EvilTaru]

No, I wasn't talking about Wii or PS3 or any next gen system. I'm speaking on GC/PS2/Xbox. I always heard..."Gamecube doesn't have very good graphics compared to the PS2 or Xbox...", as well as "Xbox has more games than the other systems." And quite frequently as well...

Which idiot has been telling you that? Do you actually believe that crap? It's a known fact that the PS2 has the most games among current generation consoles.

[Viper]

Of course he doesn't believe it. Hhe was pointing out the BS fanboy crap that gets spread around from all sides.

[LiquidEagle]

I've stated since the beginnning of the debate that Sony should persue their own tech.

Does IC have 500 patents altogether or 500 patents soley based on vibration feedback?

Vdo, it's possible Nintendo could sue IC. You know what would be ironic as hell? If Nintendo sued IC for patent infringment and it was the same patents IC sued Sony for.

:lol: I'd get a kick out of that if that were the case! I would be interested to know why Immersion claims they have all these patents covering rumble tech that makes it nearly impossible to create your own rumble technology, yet when Nintendo makes it they don't even check it out out of curiosity...

[Z]

yet when Nintendo makes it they don't even check it out out of curiosity...
I think they did check it out and it didn't look like they could jab it to them as well, so they backed off. then they said "we didn't look at Ninty's method". yeah, right.

[McLaren]

Rumble and motion sensing might be possible and cost effective but as of now, all of that is too late.... :lol: the funny part of this whole hoopla is that u sue someone for 100 mil (got 90 mil) and yet u still expect to be all cool and shyt and still continue to do business together. what the hell is this, Bizarro's World???? http://static.bbmp3.com/smilies/smh2.gif

[LiquidEagle]

Well last I heard, Immersion hadn't gotten paid that 90 million yet. Sony's constantly putting it through the appeals loops so they haven't paid yet, right?

[Viper]

^You are correct, they haven't paid up yet because they are appealing, again. Each time they appeal and lose though, Sony sis charged an interst fee. The last one was several million and this one would put the overall payout to $100 million. They only sued for $80 something million.

Mclaren, believe it or not but in the corporate world, they sue each other one day and make business deals the next day all the time. This issue simply became high profile. Similary, two companies can have competing products and work together on others (See Sony and Toshiba with Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD competing and working on CELL together).

[LiquidEagle]

Well I definitely think the Toshiba/Sony relationship is much more tight-knit than the one Sony & Immersion ever had, but you're right -- that doesn't rule out them working in the future. Sony & Sega used to be pretty bitter rivals, same with Nintendo & Sega :-p

We'll see how this Immersion thing works out though, but I can only see it going deeper & deeper into a whole the way both sides refuse to let up :-/

[Omega Blue]

Sony should just come out and saying the real reason they dont want to work with Immersion....cause those little pricks are suing them for alot of money. If i sue someone for something, do you anticipate a great friendship between them and I afterwards? highly...very highly unlikely.

[PUNK em 733]

Sony should just come out and saying the real reason they dont want to work with Immersion....cause those little pricks are suing them for alot of money. If i sue someone for something, do you anticipate a great friendship between them and I afterwards? highly...very highly unlikely.


Screw friendships, we're talking about business, making money. If you have two companies that are in a legal battle, but they could come together in the future for a service/product worth hundreds of millions, if not billions then you will go for it and work together.

[LiquidEagle]

But in order to make that business relationship, Sony'd have to pony up $100 million... Especially after all this R&D cost for the PS3, I don't think that's a very nice idea to them, not to mention any sort of pride or feeling that they're on the right side, y'know?

Plus, Sony isn't losing money on this unless they lose purchases due to not having rumble, and I pity da fool who makes his console choice based on 1 feedback feature...

[Black Dragon37]

This is ALL rediculously STUPID. Immersion filed the patent before the Dual Shock. Immersion works in MANY fields other than video games (give up this stupid crack-pot thinking). Immersion actually has a WORKING product unlike patent squaters. Immersion offered the oportunity long ago for Sony to solve this before it ever went to court. After this went to court Sony lost. Sony lost again. In fact, one of the judges was so UPSET with Sony he scolded their tactics and wrote a scathing judgment. Finally, Sony lost ONE MORE TIME!

SOOOOOO......you may not like the patent system, you may not agree with the system, it may need to be fixed, but this is NOT the case of Immersion being the bad guy.

[LiquidEagle]

Is that a QFT? I can't find the original post of that :-p

Either way, when did Immersion make any kind of an offer to Sony? The Dual Shock has been around since 1998, and Immersion didn't really come out of the woodwork until what, like 2003? Somewhere around there I believe...

It makes Immersion's motives seem a lot less like business ethics and more like business, so pardon me if I don't hold them in very high regard :-p

[cliffbo]

immersion were only a medical equipment design company and even if they filed a patent before dual shock it was probably an obscure patent and had nothing to do with games controllers or the games industry and i think you will find spinning motors using weights to achieve rumble effects was used some years before immersion even existed.

and if nintendo has rumble and have not had immersion after them there seems something fishy about immersions practices and before someone says they used a different method to achieve it there are only so many ways of achieving it and considering immersion has 600 patents on the tech don`t you think they would have sewn up nintendos angle aswell? it`s obvious there was not enough rewards to take on nintendo as the rumble was less prevalent on the nintendo formats.

why would sony have stolen the tech for rumble they pay other companies for the use of their tech so surely they would have just paid the fees it would have been cheaper in the long run for them.

IMO they acquired the parents needed once they noticed how big the games business was becoming and then pounced on the biggest fish in the pond with the intension pf making a killing and becoming a big player in a very lucrative market.

and their recent announcements that rumble is easy to implement with tilt and is cheap and the fact that they have gone out of their way to make biased polls and announcements every time sony makes an announcement means they are getting desperate to muscle in on the ps3 business model as they obviously think it will be a success and will lose big money if they cannot pursuade sony to give in to their demands.

the next move i expect from immersion is to offer sony a deal on the amount they say sony owe them if that fails you can expect them to strike a deal with microsoft so as to lessen the blow of losing all that sony business they will lose.

:)

[LiquidEagle]

Well they aren't losing Sony's business since they never had it to begin with, that's why they're suing :-p

Pretty good take, but I'm still not 100% ready to just dismiss Immersion as this greedy company in a panic now because they aren't on the PS3 boat. I definitely suspect them of that much, but they may actually have better intentions when they bring themselves into the spotlight regarding Sony's announcements...maybe...

[cliffbo]

well they have obviously presumed they would get the sony business as they thought they had sony backed into a corner with nowhere to go as the ps2 sold around about 400 million controllers and if they got the royalties from them if sony gives in that is they would have thought they would make similar amounts from ps3 sales which we can see they will not be able to under the present circumstances.

:)

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Sony is willing to bet that a lack of rumble is not going to be the make or break factor on their console.
I gotta say.... that doesn't sound that crazy.

[Viper]

But in order to make that business relationship, Sony'd have to pony up $100 million...
Not exactly.

See, Immersion sued both Sony AND MS. MS settled out of court and simply agreed to pay royalties to use the technology (as part of the deal, MS was given 20% of Immersion stock of which they've already sold for profit). Sony could have done the same thing but decided to take it to court and lost.

Immersion has offered again to drop the lawsuit if Sony would come to terms of a royalty agreement and again sony has said no and tried to appeal the lawsuit...and lost again.

They are now on their final appeal and you have no rumble in the PS3 because Sony didn't want to pay royalties.


You guys do know what happens if Sony loses this last appeal?

[masteratt]

JAIL TIME?! lol

I know you probably won't buy this "Bullshit" Viper but Kaz Hirahi said after being asked the question honestly "You guys said you couldn't have rumble because of collision of technlogy but the people who follow gaming bussiness state it's because of the thing with Immersion, what is the real deal?" He basically said it was a choice between rumble and sensing technology and Sony had to decide on one as having both would make the controllers too expensive.

[Viper]

Yeah, I've read that and laughed my ass off and such a statement.

1. It's not affecting Nintendo's controller to have both.

2. They're doing it to save gamers money? Say what? This from the guy who doesn't think $600.00 is a lot for a console. Adding rumble might add $1.00 to $2.00 to the retail cost of the controller anyway.

[Applefiend]

heh, we know it's all BS, it's a legal thing. :)

I think they just don't think rumble is that important. Not to pay out millions and millions over. Which errm... they already have.

[Viper]

Apple, the big issue is the ramifications of losing the final appeal (which if they struck a deal, they wouldn't have this potential issue).

The original court order called for a cease and desist of all sales in the US of PS2, DS2 and a collection of 40+ games.

Sony plans on milking the PS2 for now to generate profit while the PS3 gains steam. If Sony doesn't have that huge help from the PS2 because of a legal sales block, they could be in much, much bigger trouble than just a $90 million settlement.

[LiquidEagle]

Not exactly.

See, Immersion sued both Sony AND MS. MS settled out of court and simply agreed to pay royalties to use the technology (as part of the deal, MS was given 20% of Immersion stock of which they've already sold for profit). Sony could have done the same thing but decided to take it to court and lost.

Immersion has offered again to drop the lawsuit if Sony would come to terms of a royalty agreement and again sony has said no and tried to appeal the lawsuit...and lost again.

I don't understand... Are you saying Immersion still has an offer on the table where they'll drop the case (which has already been decided) if Sony starts paying them royalties? I think the $100 million is unavoidable since it covers past royalties or whatever, something that's still a legal obligation.

I can see how Sony would have had an option if Immersion gave them this option back before the suit went through, but it seems like that ship has sailed by now...

I find this whole lawsuit ordeal is very short on official information, as I've read most of it from magazines or websites... is there an official source I can look at for this case? Just out of curiosity.

[vdo]

Well they aren't losing Sony's business since they never had it to begin with, that's why they're suing :-p


According to this article they have been getting money from Sony every quarter (1.37 percent of PS2 revenues (notice it is revenues not profits, BTW - wouldn't you love to get a percentage of a companies revenue regardless of their profit?)), but Immersion wants more (5 percent).

Sony has been paying Immersion 1.37 percent of its quarterly revenue from PlayStation sales under a compulsory license ordered by the judge, but Immersion's standard rate is 5 percent, and the company hopes to use the injunction to force a settlement deal that reflects the higher rate, he said.
http://news.com.com/Sony+loses+round+in+DualShock+patent+case/2100-1047_3-6049177.html

I would think that Immersion should get a set percentage of the price for each controller, not a percentage of PS2 revenues. The revenue of the entire console has nothing to do with the controller tech. That would mean if Sony sells an expensive console, AKA the PS3, now Immersion gets way more money because of that, and since it is revenue based, it won't matter that Sony is not making a profit in the beginning. I didn't realize that Immersion was collecting the money in that manner and it may be those extortionist methods that may be causing Sony to do what they are doing. I was thinking Immersion was asking for a percentage of each controller and Sony didn't even want to pay that, but this is much different IMO.

With regards Sony for their comments on this, they may not be able to comment much on the ongoing case without it hurting their chances as a lot of times court participants are not allowed to say certain things while there are still pending appeals.

[LiquidEagle]

Thanks for the info. However, I expect there should be some, dare I say, more reliable source of court proceedings info than gaming publications :-/

Certainly interesting to know, though.

[8_Bit]

Not really. I'm not entirely sure which interview it was, although I believe it could have been one of their not too recent ones, but it was said that Microsoft did not have enough stock or any at all to do this. If it wasn't so late, I would probably direct you to a source.

Wrong. This part of the agreement has nothing to do with whether Microsoft still owns Immersion stock.

Moreover, Immersion Chief Executive Victor Viegas says the settlement also includes a sub-license that allows Microsoft to cut license agreements on Immersion's technology with other companies--including Sony. Under such a deal Microsoft would share license revenue. But should Immersion settle with Sony, the latter would be obligated to pay Microsoft a minimum of $15 million. That's pocket change to a company that generates billions in cash every year, but could be viewed as a symbolic victory for Microsoft over Sony.

Source: http://www.forbes.com/2005/03/28/cx_ah_0328sony.html

It's not hard to see this is the real sticking point here. Microsoft has essentially blocked Sony and Immersion from ever reaching any kind of easy settlement by getting that language put in their settlement contract with Immersion.

Remember, when the suits were originally filed, Sony and Microsoft were expected to fight Immersion together, then Microsoft went and cut their back door deal with Immersion. Sony feels betrayed by Microsoft in this deal, and paying them at least $15 Million (and probably much more) would cause Sony to lose more face than they can possibly abide.

Microsoft played both Immersion and Sony in this deal by getting that catch in the contract. Immersion would probably have reached some sort of licensing deal with Sony by now, if Microsoft hadn't slipped that roadblock in the way.

[LiquidEagle]

that article's a little on the old side but certainly interesting nonetheless, thanks for that info 8_bit :) +rep

[vdo]

Thanks for the info. However, I expect there should be some, dare I say, more reliable source of court proceedings info than gaming publications :-/

Certainly interesting to know, though.

OK, how's this for reliable? Straight from Immersion's 2005 Annual Report:

http://immr.client.shareholder.com/downloads/IMMR2005_AnnualReport.pdf

On January 10, 2005, the Court awarded us prejudgment interest on the damages the jury awarded at the applicable prime rate. The Court further ordered Sony Computer Entertainment to pay us a compulsory license fee at the rate of 1.37%, the ratio of the verdict amount to the amount of sales of infringing products, effective as of July 1, 2004 and through the date of Judgment. On February 9, 2005, the Court ordered that Sony Computer Entertainment provide us with sales data 15 days after the end of each quarter and clarifying that Sony Computer Entertainment shall make the ordered payment 45 days after the end of the applicable quarter. Sony Computer Entertainment has made quarterly payments to us pursuant to the Court’s orders. Although we have received payments, we may be required to return them and any future payments based on the outcome of the appeals process.

In case you are thinking the infringing products are just the controllers and not the PS3 hardware or any of its software:

Additionally, the Court issued a permanent injunction against the manufacture, use, sale, or import into the United States of the infringing Sony Computer Entertainment PlayStation system consisting of the PlayStation consoles, Dual Shock controllers, and the 47 games found by the jury to infringe our patents.The Court further ordered Sony Computer Entertainment to pay a compulsory license fee at the rate of 1.37% for the duration of the stay of the permanent injunction at the same rate and conditions as previously awarded

I tried finding out how much Sony would be paying them by looking at Sony's quarterly financial reports. On any given quarter, they seem to make about $1 billion, but that is split between PS2 and PSP. They give shipment numbers of the two, but they don't split out what the revenue is for each. Still, if half the revenue, $500 million, is PS2 related, then 1.37% of that is $6,850,000 per quarter or $27,400,000 per year. Who knows what the real number is - point is 1.37 percent of revenue in that league is in the millions. I am sure they would love to use the injunction to raise it to 5% and get even more. I still don't think that the company should get a percentage of the revenue of the system - it should just be the controller. Can you imagine how much Sony would have to pay with the PS3, especially if Immersion won the 5% judgement? Sony would be making big revenues, because of the price of the system, but profits would be negative and they would have to pay Immersion regardless of whether they have profits since it is based on revenue.

Maybe if Immersion had left it at 1.37%, Sony would have included rumble in PS3 and they would have continued getting 1.37% from that. But in trying to go for 5%, they may have resigned themselves to getting that 5% (if they win) only from declining sales of PS2 and then nothing from PS3.

EDIT: I found confirmation of the $15,000,000 that Microsoft would receive in that document as well:

In the event we settle our lawsuit with Sony Computer Entertainment, we will be obligated to pay certain sums to Microsoft as described in Note 9 to the consolidated financial statements.
Here is note 9:

Long-term customer advance from Microsoft (Note 9) : $15,000,000

[TheGreenElf]

I never though about all the irony in this...Sony releases a $600 console, and claims it won't add rumble features to a controller for what reason? Price...funny if you ask me.

[Hrama]

I never though about all the irony in this...Sony releases a $600 console, and claims it won't add rumble features to a controller for what reason? Price...funny if you ask me.

You know what... I thought the exact same thing. Ironic no?

[frosty]

Um, yeah, c'mon. Look at the wiimote, $60. Way too f*ing much for a controller. Not to mention it isn't a $600 console. ($500 will get you going just fine).

[TheGreenElf]

Um, yeah, c'mon. Look at the wiimote, $60. Way too f*ing much for a controller. Not to mention it isn't a $600 console. ($500 will get you going just fine).
No hdmi input, 20gb space (as compared to 60gb), and no wifi? I would pretty much have to opt for the $600 version, but fair enough. Although I do agree Wii controllers will be expensive.

[frosty]

HDMI is included in all models (haven't been following ps3 news, have you?). Wifi can be added later. It has gigabit ethernet anyway. You can also take any laptop HDD or external USB HDD and add it to the 20 GB model.

[TheGreenElf]

I know, but the cost of it all will add up, so I'd just say opt for the $600 model...

[frosty]

Of course, it's a better deal, but if $ is an issue, you're just as good getting the $500 unit and upgrading when you aren't broke.

[Carlos]

Remember, when the suits were originally filed, Sony and Microsoft were expected to fight Immersion together, then Microsoft went and cut their back door deal with Immersion. Sony feels betrayed by Microsoft in this deal, and paying them at least $15 Million (and probably much more) would cause Sony to lose more face than they can possibly abide.

Microsoft played both Immersion and Sony in this deal by getting that catch in the contract. Immersion would probably have reached some sort of licensing deal with Sony by now, if Microsoft hadn't slipped that roadblock in the way.
Whoa. For some reason, I felt like saying this a long time ago, but I didn't have the right words at the right time. Well done, man, well done.

But the one thing I didn't know was that they were expected to fight this suit together.

[Domination]

OK, how's this for reliable? Straight from Immersion's 2005 Annual Report:

http://immr.client.shareholder.com/downloads/IMMR2005_AnnualReport.pdf



In case you are thinking the infringing products are just the controllers and not the PS3 hardware or any of its software:



I tried finding out how much Sony would be paying them by looking at Sony's quarterly financial reports. On any given quarter, they seem to make about $1 billion, but that is split between PS2 and PSP. They give shipment numbers of the two, but they don't split out what the revenue is for each. Still, if half the revenue, $500 million, is PS2 related, then 1.37% of that is $6,850,000 per quarter or $27,400,000 per year. Who knows what the real number is - point is 1.37 percent of revenue in that league is in the millions. I am sure they would love to use the injunction to raise it to 5% and get even more. I still don't think that the company should get a percentage of the revenue of the system - it should just be the controller. Can you imagine how much Sony would have to pay with the PS3, especially if Immersion won the 5% judgement? Sony would be making big revenues, because of the price of the system, but profits would be negative and they would have to pay Immersion regardless of whether they have profits since it is based on revenue.

Maybe if Immersion had left it at 1.37%, Sony would have included rumble in PS3 and they would have continued getting 1.37% from that. But in trying to go for 5%, they may have resigned themselves to getting that 5% (if they win) only from declining sales of PS2 and then nothing from PS3.

EDIT: I found confirmation of the $15,000,000 that Microsoft would receive in that document as well:


Here is note 9:


I'm assuming this will be an additional payment on top of the $90 million ( that is of course, granted that the current payments of 1.37% rev. will not be reinstated). Correct? Interesting... They would be better off going in-house if that's the case.

[LiquidEagle]

Very interesting vdo, thanks for that info! +rep for you as well :)

I'm really not sure to make of this, by all rights I'd have to deem this situation a clusterfuck (am I allowed to say that? :-p).

I can definitely see the irony there GreenElf :laugh: . Look at the price Sony's paying to apparently not have rumble :(

So in the end, would it be in Sony's best interests to pay this 90 or 100 million before it gets boosted up from 1.37 to 5% (assuming Sony wouldn't have to retro pay!!), or does it not really matter when they pay it? If I were Sony, I would do whatever I needed to get rid of them ASAP, they're like a parasite on Sony's revenues. Even though the Playstation branch of Sony is very profitable, they're in a very low point right now since they've plunked all this money into PS3 and haven't sold a single one yet, or its games to start making some amount of money back.

[8_Bit]

that article's a little on the old side but certainly interesting nonetheless, thanks for that info 8_bit :) +rep

What does +rep mean? I've had a few different people say this to me in replies to a few of my past posts on these forums, but my "rep power" thingie has never moved off zero.

For example, you say "+rep" but my "rep power" is still on zero now.

What is this "rep" thing anyway? Am I missing something, is something not working right, or is it common on these forums for people to say "+rep" without anything ever happening? Or is something broken on the forums?

I don't really care either way about my "rep" or whatever, I'd just like to know how it works. Does this have something to do with the green blocks by my info?

[frosty]

It's because you haven't hit 200 posts yet. XBD would tell you there's something broken on the forums, but if you press the little icon in the top right next to the post number, you can rep people or neg rep them for a post.

[LiquidEagle]

Yeah, click on your user CP and you can see who's repped you and for what posts. I should be on there :)

[8_Bit]

Thats cool. Thanks for the info.

So if/when i hit 200 posts, I'll be able to "+rep" other people too?

[Z]

damn, I was beaten to it. thanks frosty for ruining a perfect Z Explanation moment for me...

[F089/H]

Rumble was great for 10years but let's move on!
:jacko: :jacko: That's how you gotta look at things...the thing that bothered me the most was that Immesion waited like 10 years to get ther shit together and sue them,FUCK them:stunned: ..Should have been on top of shit like a boss and they wouldn't be in the position there at now !

Sony said the same thing and YoMama is right...HTF can you sue someone and then try to sell them some shit...Ain't that a bitch!???:jacko:

[Domination]

Motion/Rumble PS2 Pad

Third party peripheral maker eDimensional has unveiled a new PlayStation 2 joypad which features both gyroscopic motion sensors and a rumble feature, apparently in defiance of Sony’s suggestion that combining the two technologies would be too expensive for consumers.

The G-Pad Pro features four axis of movement, rather than the PlayStation 3 joypad’s six, but also features a rumble feature that can apparently be used in conjunction with the motion sensors. The technology is licensed from Immersion, with whom Sony has enjoyed a strained relationship since the beginning of a court case alleging patent infringements of force feedback technology.

Immersion’s latest (though not complete) victory in the courts coincided with Sony’s decision to drop the rumble feature from the PlayStation 3 controller, recently named the Sixaxis. Since E3, Sony has claimed that it was technically impossible to have both motion sensors and force feedback in a single device, despite the Wii Remote exhibiting similar functionality.

In fact, a Gamasutra interview with Immersion's Vic Viegas back in May had the company's CEO commenting: "If what they’re saying is in fact the reason why [the controller will not have vibration], I’ve offered them numerous solutions to the problem... I don’t believe it’s a very difficult problem to solve, and Immersion has experts that would be happy to solve that problem for them." The company has now proved this by solving the issue for a third party.

As widely reported, Sony Computer Entertainment America boss Kaz Hirai recently stated in an interview with game site Kikizo that, although the combination of technologies was possible, it would be prohibitively expensive for consumers attempting to buy more than one controller. The G-Pad Pro is currently advertised for just $29.95 on eDimensional’s website, which will likely cause more embarrassing headlines for Sony.

Source (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11176)

When you think about it, it does seem like Immersion is trying to force Sony's hand on this rumble feature. :quagmire: Not that this is a bad thing for consumers, but it's most definitely not a good thing/deal with Immersion from what I can tell. I find it a bit funny how persistant they are, though.