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pari
12-20-2006, 10:50 PM
This article does not directly mention PS3, but the reason for posting it here is
1. more people in PS3 section :)
2. Sony's emphasis on PS2 for most part of this year.
3. Cannot judge PS3 by two month performance
4. All doom and gloom about PS3 in terms of next gen

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20061219/wen_01.shtml



They are the professional analysts whose job it is to research, keep track of, advise their clients, and opine to the media about the gaming business. Analyze This cuts right to the chase: Rather than reporting on a subject, and throwing in quotes by analysts to support or refute a point, Gamasutra offers up a timely question pertaining to the business side of the video game industry and simply lets the analysts offer their thoughts directly to you. Each person's opinion is his or her own and will (probably) not necessarily agree with their fellow colleagues'.

As the year 2006 winds down, the analysts take time to reflect and look back at how the industry fared this year...

Ben Bajarin, Creative Strategies

2006 overall was a great year; [game] sales of Xbox 360, PS2, DS and even PC platforms showed that the industry is still growing strong. It was interesting that the PS2 competed monthly with the Xbox 360 on a regular basis. I also found it very interesting that Nintendo seems to now target an older demographic on the back of the success of Brain Age. I think you will continue to see Nintendo explore what the DS can mean to a bigger demographic.

I am looking forward to next year with continued innovation to the platforms, both in hardware and software and exciting, new immersive game experiences as developers expand their knowledge of developing for the next-gen consoles. The industry is learning what really matters to gamers in next-gen consoles and next-gen games. I am hoping that some real solid game titles start to evolve and that developers begin to really focus on new innovations in game play and game design. I hope we do not oversaturate any particular genre, thus making choosing a game like an FPS difficult for consumers.

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Michael Pachter, Wedbush Morgan Securities

The biggest surprise was the complete reversal of PS2 software sales. Sales were down 23% for the first three months of the year, then averaged up 3% for the last six months. Interestingly, they turned negative in October (by 15%), so we'll see what happens in November and December. The point is that early in the year, we thought that the PS2 was dead, and it suddenly jumped back to life in April. For the full year, sales on the platform are down only 7%, which is far better than anyone had forecast.

I'm pretty disappointed in the Xbox 360. I think Microsoft is doing everything right: Games are good; Xbox Live is amazing; and the console is not prohibitively expensive. Yet people are just not buying. The console is lagging behind my initial expectations by at least 200,000 units per month in the U.S., and I don't know why. It could be that publishers continue to support the PS2, so most consumers don't perceive a need to switch yet.

I think Microsoft over-promised on the 360, led a lot of consumers to believe that there would be millions at launch, and these consumers stopped buying anything (through March) while waiting for their Xbox 360s to arrive. Sony promised nothing (yes, they screwed up the quantities, but did not suggest that retailers advertise or take [PS3] pre-orders); consumers expected nothing, and [PS2] software sales were fine all year. It appears that as long as consumers have current generation titles to choose from, they will buy that software. I think that future declines in current generation software sales will continue to be more gradual than in past transitions.


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David Mercer, Strategy Analytics

The continued strength of the PS2, as it continues to out-sell the [Xbox 360], does raise the question as to whether a new generation has really begun. It supports Sony's view that systems should last for 10 years if they are going to generate sufficient payback on investment.

Nintendo's Wii was stronger than we had expected. But while we expect it to put in a good performance early on, doubts over its longevity remain.

For now, Microsoft and Nintendo can rest easy, but this time next year could be a whole new ballgame. 2006 will be seen as a transition year as the industry pauses for breath before the PS3 really begins to do battle in 2007. And it's only in 2008 and beyond that we'll begin to see the real impact on the publishing industry in terms of maximizing the development potential of the new platforms.

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Ed Barton, Screen Digest

This year we watched Xbox 360 performing solidly in Europe and the U.S., although it has not become the next-gen console driver which PlayStation was in previous cycles. Despite the emergence of next-gen hardware, we expect the PS2 to continue generating significant software volumes until 2008, especially as the Xbox and GameCube are no longer addressing the player demographics of cheaper consoles. The PS2 turned around a potential software market decline in 2006.[/b]

Looking forward [to] 2007, Microsoft looks like it is deepening its software library at exactly the right time to compete with two platforms which are just getting out the starting gate. Gears of War, Lost Planet, Blue Dragon and Mass Effect are all exclusive to Xbox 360 and based on new IP. Sony and Nintendo may have a historic pull with gamers, but neither will be able to compete with the depth or quality of the Xbox 360's software library before late 2007, at the earliest. Whether new titles can drive Xbox 360 growth in the Japanese market, however, remains to be seen.

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Colin Sebastian, Lazard Capital Markets

Nine months ago we were forecasting industry software sales would be flat to down 5% in 2006. But now, largely due to the resiliency of the PS2 market and strong DS sales, we are projecting software sales will end the year up around 5%. This is a major change from the last transition period back in 2000 and 2001, when the software publishers largely abandoned the PS1 as soon as the new consoles launched.

The resurgence of Nintendo is the big story of the year, in my view. The remaining question is whether the DS and Wii can become robust platforms for third-parties over the coming years, or whether Nintendo hardware ends up primarily serving Nintendo software.

The focus in 2006 was on new hardware, but the spotlight in 2007 should be on the games. Not only will we see higher quality titles for the new platforms, there is also an exciting lineup of new games, e.g. GTA IV, Halo 3, Spore. Clearly there are higher expectations for next year in terms of the content that gamers are expecting from the developers and publishers. We are all crossing our fingers that they don't disappoint.



So far Sony's approach has been correct, not abandoning PS2 unlike MS and Nintend. PS2 still outselling 360, meaning the true next gen has not started like MS would want everyone to believe. 2007 is going to the year of fight for next gens and PS2 is still going to dominate over next gens. If PS2 dominates next year, then Sony definitely has an upper hand in the next gen battle depending upon how well they transition the installed base of PS2 to PS3. The doom and gloom of the vested and bias media is not going to happen. And finally this analysis is based on the actual data of 2006's sales not a guesstimate and never know what future hold but so far Sony is undisputed champion and it still holds the advantage, unlike what all those joystiq's, kotaku's and 1up's want everyone to believe...

frosty
12-20-2006, 10:53 PM
This really belongs in General Gaming, but since you want PSI's traffic I'll leave a link to it here.

Viper
12-21-2006, 03:34 AM
Pari, Nintendo moved on to Wii in the timeframe that almost every generation has done. It was MS that jumped the gun. Also note, GC sales had faltered greatly this year as the DS became their main platform for the year. The Wii couldn't have come at a better time for them.

Sony could almost have ridden the PS2 all the way to next holiday and THEN launched the PS3 and not suffered.

gljvd
12-22-2006, 02:51 PM
The ps2 did great. The problem is the ps3. It looks like they are going to hit just over 1m units this year WW and they are actually going to be further behind the 360 then before they launched.

MS having the early lead is already showing some advantages like VF5 jumping ship and speculation that MGS4 and DMC4 will jump ship .

Ms is also moving units so far without a price drop and will continue to do something leading up into a year where they seem to (as a big trade show for 2007 has yet to happen) have the exclusive advantage greatly in thier favor for the year

The problem comes in if sony can't move the momentum and advantage to their favor ms will have taken enough market share to hurt sony . As song is taking huge losses on the ps3 and will for sometime yet . Its almost a complete reversal of the ps2/xbox era . It may be that in 2010/11 we are talking about how the xbox 360 shows no signs of dieing . Not the ps3.

pari
12-22-2006, 04:30 PM
The ps2 did great. The problem is the ps3. It looks like they are going to hit just over 1m units this year WW and they are actually going to be further behind the 360 then before they launched.

MS having the early lead is already showing some advantages like VF5 jumping ship and speculation that MGS4 and DMC4 will jump ship .

Ms is also moving units so far without a price drop and will continue to do something leading up into a year where they seem to (as a big trade show for 2007 has yet to happen) have the exclusive advantage greatly in thier favor for the year

The problem comes in if sony can't move the momentum and advantage to their favor ms will have taken enough market share to hurt sony . As song is taking huge losses on the ps3 and will for sometime yet . Its almost a complete reversal of the ps2/xbox era . It may be that in 2010/11 we are talking about how the xbox 360 shows no signs of dieing . Not the ps3.

FYI, Sony took loss for early PS2 release also. So nothing new for taking loss early on for Sony. Sony does have lots of first/second party exclusives for PS3, are you forgetting that? R:FOM first party game, got pretty good reviews, Motorstorm is the upcoming one... Depending upon which side of the coin one looks at it, Motorstorm gives different answers.. Right now PS3 has outsold 360 in Japan (what it took 360 one year +, PS3 did it in matter of months..)

What I do not understand is, why PS3 cost has to stay the same for its lifetime but 360 cost can come down. This seems to be your main tenant of your argument. Both 360 & PS3 would come down in cost but 360 since using more of a mature technology(Red Diode Laser) its almost close to its optimal cost, whereas PS3 using brand new technology(unproven in your terms..) has more room to cut cost and also lot more rapidly.. Other than that both use the same silicon technology with same price trends.

And another FYI, after Intel, Toshiba has the second best NMOS transistor out in the world for low power/performance and Sony can source their CELL from Toshiba if they want to... And Sony has its own fab too... The foundries are good but not great. So MS has to source from IBM (not the cheapest) and foundries so far are not that inclined to push 65nm because of customer volume.. Search in EE Times for more information about this..

Right now HD-DVD add ons have not sold well, if Blu-ray picks even remotely MS would be under pressure to add HD-DVD to 360 and guess what everything would be thrown out of the equation. MS execs told 1080p is impossible to do, and turn around to say now games would have 1080p. What makes you think, that 360 would not come with HD-DVD integrated? If PS3 pushes even slightly Blu-ray format, the 360 would have HD-DVD in it...

gljvd
12-22-2006, 05:58 PM
FYI, Sony took loss for early PS2 release also. So nothing new for taking loss early on for Sony
Yes but not as big as what they are taking on the ps3 and they were able to ramp costs down quickly and had no real compeitors on the market at the time. They had basicly a year to themselves with the dead dreamcast floating around a bit.

Sony does have lots of first/second party exclusives for PS3, are you forgetting that? R:FOM first party game


Well R:FOM was this year. Next year there is HS , Motorstorm perhaps lair . DMC4 and MGS4 are rumored to be on the 360 also.

360 has so far . Froza 2 , Mass effect , Halo 3 , PGR4 , Crackdown, Fable 2 , Shadowrun , Too human , lost planet and who knows what else i'm missing that should all hit next year aside from whatever else is announced at the big trade shows.

.. Right now PS3 has outsold 360 in Japan
But its getting killed by the wii.

So in Japan you have the wii then the ps3 then the 360. In NA you have 360 , wii , ps3 . In europe currently we have xbox 360 , wii , So we see the ps3 not in first place anywhere

What I do not understand is, why PS3 cost has to stay the same for its lifetime but 360 cost can come down. This seems to be your main tenant of your argument


Lol who said that ? Of course the ps3 will drop in price and costs will come down. However its in the same situation the original xbox was in . Market trends can and will force the price down at certian points of its life and being already 200$ in the hole per system will leave sony having to

1) Lower the price of the unit by 200$ to break even
2) Not lower the msrp of the console

Becasue each time they do number 2) number 1 ) gets higher

Both 360 & PS3 would come down in cost but 360 since using more of a mature technology(Red Diode Laser) its almost close to its optimal cost


Forget about bluray and dvd . First off to be BC bluray has a red laser in it. So you already have some redundant costs involved but regardless of that . The cell process is 100m tranistors bigger than the waternoose and the rsx is roughly the same size as the two dies of the xenos combined . The ps3 also has two diffrent memory pools which means it has the cost of 2 busses instead of the xbox 360s one . It also uses a ram that is so far only used in the ps3 and is produced in much lower quanitys than the gdr ram . Sony also has the original ps2 inside of it adding even more costs . Then there are other things like wifi costs (liscensing fees and silcon costs ) blue tooth has the same type of fees . This is all just off the top of my head. Some add up to pennies and some dollars onto a system. But it all adds up at some point .

And another FYI, after Intel, Toshiba has the second best NMOS transistor out in the world for low power/performance and Sony can source their CELL from Toshiba if they want to... And Sony has its own fab too... The foundries are good but not great. So MS has to source from IBM (not the cheapest) and foundries so far are not that inclined to push 65nm because of customer volume.. Search in EE Times for more information about this..



Sigh. Ibm is producing cells currently . Toshiba can , but sony will have to pay Toshiba to produce it . IBM and Toshiba have shared fab tech in the past so i'm not sure how much diffrence there is with thier fabs . Sony is currently only making the rsx .

I don't see sony having much of an advantage over ms as someone has to pay for sonys fabs . They weren't just given to them by some rich guy not wanting anything and willing to pay for all the upkeep and costs that go with it .

Right now HD-DVD add ons have not sold well,


Back up this fud with proof . Last report I saw is that in the 2-3 weeks it was out it moved 42k which is close to what ms shipped in NA original. Which isn't bad considering that its a $200 add on.

What makes you think, that 360 would not come with HD-DVD integrated? If PS3 pushes even slightly Blu-ray format, the 360 would have HD-DVD in it...


What ? What are you talking about ? Even if there is a hd-dvd built into a 360 sku it doesn't have to be the only sku that exists . They can still sell the core 300$ , premium 400$ and hd-dvd at 500$ Then when the price drops they can sell core 200 , premium 300 , hd-dvd 400
Then core 100 , premium 200 , hd-dvd 300$ They will still have the pricing advantage over sony .

masteratt
12-22-2006, 09:03 PM
Well obviously PS3 is not first place anywhere mate.

There are hardly any PS3s out there. It's stupid to talk about "leads" until at least mid 2008.

pari
12-26-2006, 09:04 PM
Yes but not as big as what they are taking on the ps3 and they were able to ramp costs down quickly and had no real compeitors on the market at the time. They had basicly a year to themselves with the dead dreamcast floating around a bit.

True, in PS2 generation Sony did not real competitors, whereas this generation they have MS.



360 has so far . Froza 2 , Mass effect , Halo 3 , PGR4 , Crackdown, Fable 2 , Shadowrun , Too human , lost planet and who knows what else i'm missing that should all hit next year aside from whatever else is announced at the big trade shows.

There is rumor that Lost Planet would be coming to PS3... So all these rumors go both ways..



But its getting killed by the wii.

So in Japan you have the wii then the ps3 then the 360. In NA you have 360 , wii , ps3 . In europe currently we have xbox 360 , wii , So we see the ps3 not in first place anywhere

PS3 is limited by supply issue in Japan, unlike 360. Europe its not even released yet, Wii definitely doing well. 360, PS3 & Wii main battle is in US.



Lol who said that ? Of course the ps3 will drop in price and costs will come down. However its in the same situation the original xbox was in . Market trends can and will force the price down at certian points of its life and being already 200$ in the hole per system will leave sony having to

1) Lower the price of the unit by 200$ to break even
2) Not lower the msrp of the console

Becasue each time they do number 2) number 1 ) gets higher


That is what you do not get it, for original xbox MS had to buy the chip from Intel and Nvidia at fixed cost. Intel and Nvidia were not interested in mapping the chip to different process to reduce the cost because it was not worth it for thme. So MS had that problem with xbox and they have avoided that situation in 360. Now tell me how PS3 in situation similar to xbox. Sony can manufacture its own CELL and RSX, remember they are a semiconductor unlike MS...



Forget about bluray and dvd . First off to be BC bluray has a red laser in it. So you already have some redundant costs involved but regardless of that . The cell process is 100m tranistors bigger than the waternoose and the rsx is roughly the same size as the two dies of the xenos combined . The ps3 also has two diffrent memory pools which means it has the cost of 2 busses instead of the xbox 360s one . It also uses a ram that is so far only used in the ps3 and is produced in much lower quanitys than the gdr ram . Sony also has the original ps2 inside of it adding even more costs . Then there are other things like wifi costs (liscensing fees and silcon costs ) blue tooth has the same type of fees . This is all just off the top of my head. Some add up to pennies and some dollars onto a system. But it all adds up at some point .

nth time, the buses do not cost that much. Memory cost definitely true, N64 had Rambus memory FYI. Bluetooth is a consortium licensing fee might there, so where does MS get its wireless from? Marvel or Broadcomm doesn't MS need to pay them. If MS developed its own wireless communication protocol, it would be limited quantity chip. So would it not cost more for MS going by your own argument? Sony can manufacture its own chip, so middle man is out which is not the case for MS...

the extra component would be the additional red-laser diode and pickup assembly on the head, servo motor is the same. So additional cost is there but very much.


Sigh. Ibm is producing cells currently . Toshiba can , but sony will have to pay Toshiba to produce it . IBM and Toshiba have shared fab tech in the past so i'm not sure how much diffrence there is with thier fabs . Sony is currently only making the rsx .

I don't see sony having much of an advantage over ms as someone has to pay for sonys fabs . They weren't just given to them by some rich guy not wanting anything and willing to pay for all the upkeep and costs that go with it .


Go search www.eetimes.com regarding Sony's decision about sourcing chips. Sony as a whole company is big consumer of chips and they have decided to go semi-vertical model instead of horizontal model. So the Sony Fab would be used for other chips Sony would manufacture to amortize the cost. Just like Windows and MS office is amortizing the cost of 360.

Toshiba and IBM fabs would the second source for Sony, if Sony has issues with its own fab and process. Sorry I was not coherent in my previous post. The foundries would do 65nm when it justifies the cost for them, if the volume is low its going to be expensive. Charter semiconductor needs to have customers other than MS, to defray the cost of 65nm process. The volume is the key for the foundries.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=HQUGXO3NJZX2MQSNDLQSK HSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=175803771


Toshiba and Sony have been collaborating on process technologies up to 45 nm also. But a Toshiba spokesman didn't specify whether the companies would collaborate beyond 45 nm.

http://www.toshiba.com/taec/news/press_releases/2002/to-258.jsp


TOKYO, December 3, 2002 -- Toshiba Corporation and Sony Corporation today announced the world's first 65-nanometer (nm) CMOS process technology for embedded DRAM system LSIs -- a major breakthrough in process technology for highly advanced, compact, single-chip system LSIs that will be only one-fourth the size of current devices while offering higher levels of performance and functionality.


Sigh!!! Either keep up with news or know the news before making such sign as if you know and other do not. And not to get personal do not act as if you know more.. know before you leap

http://www.digitimes.com/bits_chips/a20061225PD211.html


65nm Xbox 360 CPUs delayed until mid-2007

Latest news
Monica Chen, Taipei; Rodney Chan, DigiTimes.com [Tuesday 26 December 2006]

According to industry sources, plans to produce CPUs for the Microsoft Xbox 360 game console on 65nm at Chartered Semiconductor Manufacturing will be pushed back until the middle of 2007, at least one quarter behind the original schedule.

Microsoft Taiwan declined to comment on the news, while Chartered also declined to comment, stating it did not comment on the production schedule of any of its customers.

In April 2006, Chartered announced that it had signed an agreement with Microsoft to manufacture CPUs for the Xbox 360 console on 65nm Silicon-on-Insulator (SOI) technology starting in the first quarter of 2007.

Chartered is already a major foundry partner for producing Microsoft's Xbox 360 CPUs on 90nm technology.

So what does the above say, go back and check all my postings regarding 65nm process.

https://submissions.miracd.com/ISSCC2007/WebAP2007/2007_AP_Final.pdf

The ISSCC'07 conference schedule, CELL 65nm data is being presented there. To present in ISSCC actual silicon data is required.



Back up this fud with proof . Last report I saw is that in the 2-3 weeks it was out it moved 42k which is close to what ms shipped in NA original. Which isn't bad considering that its a $200 add on.

I do not do FUD like you and never have I made a statement without backing up with proof. Let me tell you some thing, the FUD about your bus costing more is pure crap. Can you show me why the bus inside a chip should cost more? Do know how many internal buses are in SOC like PowerQuicc which is a PowerPC SOC? Its easy to do name call..

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14737

Yeah, you can spin the numbers anyway you want. For sake of comparison, PS3 with Blu-ray drive has more installed base than HD-DVD is that a fair argument to make? 600k+ Blu-ray compared to 42k+ HD-DVD addon...



What ? What are you talking about ? Even if there is a hd-dvd built into a 360 sku it doesn't have to be the only sku that exists . They can still sell the core 300$ , premium 400$ and hd-dvd at 500$ Then when the price drops they can sell core 200 , premium 300 , hd-dvd 400
Then core 100 , premium 200 , hd-dvd 300$ They will still have the pricing advantage over sony .

Yeah, would the game be developed for HD-DVD or DVD? What about wanting to use the movie download service? You buy core 100 and get proprietary hard disk from MS for premium does not that add cost to the core100?