Valve co-founder hatin' on Sony [Archive]

ded5850

01-16-2007, 06:18 AM

I was just paroosing through ign when I saw this. Start's to make you second guess your system of choice when all these big shots keep dissing your machine. Anyways, enjoy.

Gabe Newell Disses PS3
Labels Sony's system a "total disaster."

According to an interview in Game Informer magazine, Valve co-founder Gabe Newell has a few bitter words to share on the PlayStation 3. He doesn't pull his punches, calling the system a 'total disaster'.

The quote, sourced from the NeoGAF forums, must be a bitter pill for Sony to swallow, considering the prominence of the source from which it came. Newell is unquestionably a heavyweight in the industry - and another high profile name added to a list of developers voicing dissent against Sony's console.

According to Newell, "The PS3 is a total disaster on so many levels, I think It's really clear that Sony lost track of what customers and what developers wanted. I'd say, even at this late date, they should just cancel it and do a "do over". Just say, "This was a horrible disaster and we're sorry and we're going to stop selling this and stop trying to convince people to develop for it". The happy story is the Wii. I'm betting that by Christmas of next year, Nintendo Wii has a larger installed base than the 360. Other people think I'm crazy. I really like everything that Nintendo is doing."

Them's fightin' words, we think.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/755/755493p1.html

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 06:22 AM

Well if the PS3 is a failure then he is a very stupid man for developing Half-Life 2 for it then isn't he?

BTW: Old.

gibmonster

01-16-2007, 06:26 AM

It's funny how it's always the more PC focused developers that complain.

frosty

01-16-2007, 06:27 AM

What was that Yes it's me? Did your avatar just slip Gabe Newell a check?

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 06:32 AM

What was that Yes it's me? Did your avatar just slip Gabe Newell a check?

I can assure you it was completly contributionry. ;)

ded5850

01-16-2007, 06:36 AM

It just pains me sometimes to see so much negative spin. Maybe it's just me, but it seems to be nothing but bad vibes coming out towards Sony. Does this not seem to bother anybody else? Or is all this simply written off as just another pissed off PC developer, whining over things they have no control over?

No once of truth is forseeable in these statements?

gibmonster

01-16-2007, 06:47 AM

Viper

01-16-2007, 06:51 AM

"Devs say the darndest things."

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 06:52 AM

Devs are just whining winging toddlers. Eventually if you don't give them what they want they get used to it and cope anyway, example; most devs hate going from single core to dual core development but now they are ushering in the quad core CPU's, just look at crytek.

To compete, they have to cope, to cope, they have to compete.

Siraris

01-16-2007, 06:53 AM

I can tell you that this is the feeling of a lot of game developers that I know, and not just lazy ones. I can remember friends telling me for years that the PlayStation 1 and 2 were absolute nightmares to develop for, and that if Sony stepped out of the console arena, they would not miss them for a minute.

I think this is what Sony should be very worried about. Microsoft may not be sweeping the floor with Sony right now, but if they can't get their sales ramped up, it could absolutely nip them in the ass, especially in the next generation. Microsoft has fantastic development tools, having had to support almost the entire PC industry for the past 20 years, and they also happen to have 50 billion in cash, so they aren't thinking about 5 years, they are in this for the long haul, and if they get the big support 5 years from now, that's fine by them. Nintendo can do no wrong in most peoples eyes, and with the astronomical success of the DS, and the must-have Wii, they are sitting pretty.

I really don't know what Sony is thinking. The interesting thing is that almost every single of their other divisions are doing fantastic, and people are in love with them. My friend was at CES last week, and he said not only did Sony have the best booth, but some of the best and most impressive products at the show. The only part of the booth lacking? You guessed it, the PlayStation section.

I'm on my knees praying that Sony has been tight lipped silent over the past month or so because they are preparing some really big plans for the rest of the year. If they just continue to sit back and hope that the PlayStation brand is going to sell itself, they are in for a big surprise.

Siraris

01-16-2007, 06:56 AM

^well, if it's such a pain to develop for then why is he releasing HL2 on it?
Programming for PS3 and X360 is gonna be a bitch no matter what you do....I suppose it's because of te x360's development tools are more helpful than the PS3's tools that make it easier to develop for.

Many developers have stated that developing for the PS3 is not as hard as the development for games on the PS2 vs the original xbox. This didn't keep it from having the better software in my opinion. So, nah, I ain't worried. Same thing happened last jen with ps2 and DC.

They are releasing for the PS3 because Vivendi is probably making them, and Sony has absolutely crushed the competition for 10 years now, so not developing for Playstation = not making a lot of money. At this point, though, PS3's are sitting on the floor all over the place, and Sony is getting absolutely brutally beaten in the media.

You don't talk shit about a company when they are going to be a major revenue stream, but now, when things are looking bleak, Newell can get some kicks in. I don't think many people in the industry have a very positive outlook on the PS3 right now, and you're going to continue to hear negative things until Sony starts to shape up.

It should also be noted, that this is completely unsubstantiated, and found on NeoGAF, so it could be fake. It has yet to be proven, and even IGN has a disclaimer.

stanDarsh

01-16-2007, 07:27 AM

I think it's a little far fetched to be true. In fact wasn't it Gabe Newell who originally mocked the wiimote and now according to that article is saying he loves everything Nintendo is doing?

It seems like April Fools came early this week with a string of BS articles. Metal Gear Trilogy for X360, Rumble for new designed SixaxiS and now this!

gibmonster

01-16-2007, 07:31 AM

^ The internet is a magical place. lol

ded5850

01-16-2007, 07:39 AM

yoshaw

01-16-2007, 07:51 AM

I can assure you it was completly contributionry. ;)

They are called donations in some regions of the world :heybaby:

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 08:14 AM

They are called donations in some regions of the world :heybaby:

In any case, you have to believe me that in no way whatsoever, not 1%, was it one of my evil schemes to steal exclusive content from my competitor, or to give them a bad rep. Surely, you have to believe me that the small donation I personally give to the fantastic devs my competitor has, is absolutely not affliated one bit with this booming console war. It was not one of my many monopolistic tactics and shotty busness strategies I implement to not only rip off consumers but to make it near impossible for their to be alternatives to our product.

Woops, my my, I've said to much.

frosty

01-16-2007, 08:16 AM

And it sounded funny with your head bobbing like that the whole time.

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 08:25 AM

hey my avatar is a very happy fellow, you can't displease him.

Siraris

01-16-2007, 08:50 AM

I'm sitting in the same boat as you, Siraris. I'm looking at Sony and wondering how they could possibly botch things up for themselves, and more importantly, for me. I've invested a lot of $$ into my machine, and though I wouldn't say it's just sitting there collecting dust, It could use a good spin from a good game. Maybe I'm just hyperventelating and it will all be over come March, but I don't really have any expectations anymore. They're lost that much from me.

I personally can wait for the games, that's not a big deal to me. I know that games take time, and I would much rather wait for really good games, as opposed to having games rushed out just to be on the shelf. That being said, Sony had the game in the bag, and they've blown it this far. They could have started principle work on the PS3 years ago, and gotten a lot of input from many developers out there of what they wanted. The Wii and 360 have the added benefit of having a direction to them; Wii being simple, gimicky fun games for everyone, and Microsoft having LIVE. Sony, unfortunately, has nothing to set it aside from the others except Blu-Ray, which is not something that has mass-market appeal, and probably won't for years to come.

The most important thing in this industry is developer support, and Sony has screwed the pooch on that. I have absolutely no clue why, and I wish we could get some honest answers. If they didn't have the tools that Microsoft has, I could understand, or perhaps even the easiest architecture, but the fact that they let games like GTA4, Assassins Creed, and now smaller albeit important games like Virtua Fighter 5, Bioshock (entirely on that one) and who knows what else, that's just stupid on every single level. It's one thing to have a $600 console out there that doesn't have a set clear direction but has tons of exclusive must have games that will make people overlook the problems and the price tag, but Sony doesn't have that. It's really a very scary time for the console, and in particular it's owners.

ded5850

01-16-2007, 08:56 AM

^^I could not have said it better myself. And the actual functionality of the console is something to desire as well, when looking at all the benefits The Dashboard has to offer.

I said it before and I'll say it again: I WANT TO LISTEN TO MY MUSIC WHEN I'M DOING WHATEVER THE F*CK IT IS I WANT ON MY $600 E-MACHINE! Is that so much to ask for? With Next gen starting with Sony, I came expacting everything 360 has to offer and then some. I'm left wanting.

However, i did not mean to begin a "PS3 owner - woe is me" thread. I simply had some grips I wanted to let out. Glade to see I'm not the only one not seeing the bigger picture here.

TheGreenElf

01-16-2007, 09:30 AM

Some of the industries highest and most respective complaining about the difficulty of your console = bad news.

But seriously, that is harsh..."they should issue a 'do-over'".

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 09:46 AM

if devs "hated" sony then the ps3 wouldn't have more games in development then it's competition, not to mention the biggest game library in the histroy of consoles, spanning many many thousand games.

TheGreenElf

01-16-2007, 09:48 AM

Past games have nothing to do with a system's current status. :)

RzrWire

01-16-2007, 09:52 AM

Why would anyone bite the hand that feeds them so hard with a game that is about to be released? Not to mention with the respect and industry experience this guy has, his comment reads like that of a six year old child not getting an Oreo. Usually guys of his stature give specific reasons why they believe something is "a total disaster on so many levels" with intellectual feedback. I'm calling bullshit on this one.

Red_Eyes

01-16-2007, 09:52 AM

You all are too worry about the PS3 too much. It's not PS3's time yet. Right now, the PS2 is still owning, with up-coming Triple A games like God of War 2. Once all those great games for the PS2 are release, then Sony will start focusing on the PS3. Right now, Sony's just laying back, knowing that all those millions of PS2 owners will eventually buy a PS3 once all the great PS2 games have been release. Trust me, by Christmas, the PS2 will have die down and everybody will be buying a PS3.

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 09:56 AM

Past games have nothing to do with a system's current status. :)

Yes it does, when a consumer has access to thousands of games more then the competior, and when they can play their current games it will sway their opinions.

The reason why there are some ps3's not being sold is that it is after december, no body has money, this is the same story for the 360, not quite for the wii because it is in such short supply and cheap.

CreativeWriter

01-16-2007, 09:58 AM

Well, there's blood in the water. Sony had a poor 06, and some developers see little reason to hold their tongues. My biggest concern at the moment is the slow drip of game delays. First it was Oblivion from Nov into late Feb (still not sure why that happened), then small games like flOw (Dec. 18 to Jan. 8 to yesterday to when?). Now the AAA games at Euro launch are drifting into late Spring (Heavenly Sword, Lair). The Euro launch is starting to look a bit weak with Motorstorm the only real AAA title. There's VF5, but w/o online I'm not sure how well it'll do outside Japan.

Maybe the multiplats will start to generate some buzz, but this round of games needs to be up to snuff compared to the 360 versions. Splinter Cell, Fear, GRAW2, Oblivion, R6, and MoH:A need to be solid B+/A titles for a successful second wave if Heavenly Sword and Lair slip into the late Spring/early summer... Until there are games that show the "PS3 edge" we were all talking about during TGS there's not much we can say to counter Carmack and the other PC devs... Potential is hard to sell...

I love my PS3, but I've been playing FFXII more than anything. I'm hoping late Feb/early March changes that.

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 10:11 AM

The ps2 had some of the worst lauch window titles ever and did more then well.

so did the 360, there still isn't all that many system sellers on the system yet nobody is spelling doom and gloom for it.

Applefiend

01-16-2007, 11:05 AM

SSX and TTT were teh rock.

Shame, filled with the Valve love today as I got Steam running native under Mac OS X. Took me 9 years to get Half Life running on my Mac but I finally did it! :)

VG Aficionado

01-16-2007, 11:06 AM

There's a number of funny things about this.

Firstly, Newell doesn't mention what's so wrong about PS3 specifically. Granted we all know what he can be talking about, but he didn't even bother to say what's exactly so wrong and what's the worst thing about it in his opinion, and it is funny he doesn't considering he seems to be talking about so many problems.

Secondly, I wonder if he remembers that HL2 is coming to PS3 as well, because that's the best way to make me want to ignore the PS3 port which I was seriously considering for purchase as I loved HL2 and Episode 1 on PC, and despite having bought the limited edition for it already. (And despite I fear HL2 will feel quite old compared to the latest titles when the PS3 port is released, as Episode 1 already felt a bit old on PC.)

Thirdly, the article mentions that he's yet another high profile name who doesn't like the PS3. Are there so many of them? Carmack never liked it ever since he could relate its name to PS2, and that includes criticising it even before it existed. Atari's president recently dissed it ridiculously, and it took a couple of months to see his criticism was wrong. And these two are the most recent names I can remember, not taking into account people more or less intimately related to Microsoft. Everyone else is not so harsh in public, as far as I can remember.

On a last note, and not a too funny one, the article says he is a "heavyweight". I wonder whether the pun was intended or not.

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 11:16 AM

stanDarsh

01-16-2007, 11:22 AM

If this story is to be believed, it wouldn't make sense making such a statement not long before they are to release a fairly major game to the console. This story really doesn't add up.

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 12:22 PM

i say it's real though, valve would have denied it if it was not.

maybe he was just a bit passed it when he said that? :drunk:

Pluto

01-16-2007, 12:26 PM

^ Yeah, he was definitely out of it..

Probably hopped up on some twinkies. If anything, I think his fat-slobbish physique could use a do-over.

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 12:32 PM

^lmao

adam2407

01-16-2007, 12:34 PM

Newell is unquestionably a heavyweight in the industry

I know it may sound stupid, I played videogames for about 17 years now, but I swear I`ve never heard the name Gabe Newell before.
heavyweight in the industry? Hideo kojima, Shigeru Miyamoto, Hironobu Sakaguchi, Will Wright are some of the heavyweight in the industry (IMO).
Can someone please explain to me why is this guy labeled as one of the heavyweight in the industry? Sorry for the lack of knowledge......

VG Aficionado

01-16-2007, 12:37 PM

He's only famous for the Half-Life series, really. It implies a lot more than two games, but in the end not many people really knows him for anything else.

Garfunkel

01-16-2007, 12:41 PM

Black Dragon37

01-16-2007, 12:47 PM

Gabe Newell is a guy who hates, more than anything, getting out of his comfort zone.

He dislike working hard to get results. I mean, look at him!

VG Aficionado

01-16-2007, 12:56 PM

I think I just remembered how Newell hated that the whole industry was switching to CPUs that weren't traditional (i.e. single core) anymore, because that implied he had to learn new things and work much more in order to keep up with the times. I can't say I'm sorry for him, because life is about progressing and doing new things rather than remaining stale.

section

01-16-2007, 12:58 PM

I'd say the situation in Somalia is a disaster and put this guy in anger management group.

EvilTaru

01-16-2007, 01:39 PM

A purely PC developer basically wanting a console to be made purely of outdated PC parts so he can port his existing PC tech to it without much additional work instead of a console with a more exotic architecture that exclusive devs will probably get much better results? Big surprise. Valve has done nothing on the Playstation consoles outside of the Half-Life ports years ago and I don't expect them to be relevant to the PS3. I'm not sure why Newell is even remotely relevant to the PS3 landscape, especially given neither source nor steam is going to do well on the platform.

BlueTsunami

01-16-2007, 01:43 PM

You guys see the update to the page? I'm wondering if this is also a fake story from GAF

lolol

EvilTaru

01-16-2007, 01:49 PM

You guys see the update to the page? I'm wondering if this is also a fake story from GAF

lolol

Oh for ****'s sake, sites like IGN should really stop using GAF as a source. Heck they've already gotten burned once, GAF is NOT a news source, the only real news one can take from GAF is how unstoppable and awesome the wedge of the gaf clan is in Resistance online multiplayer. Teh powah of wedge, BELIEVE!!!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/angry.gif

VG Aficionado

01-16-2007, 01:54 PM

Update: We'd like to make it clear that this story was sourced from the NeoGAF forums, so we can't guarantee its accuracy. IGN AU is waiting for those lazy bums in the US to come back from public holidays to confirm the piece.Honestly, we all can agree that it is not very clever to bash a system only to release a game for it. How do you expect PS3 users to buy it if he's stating that he hates developing for it and that it sucks?

Oh for ****'s sake, sites like IGN should really stop using GAF as a source. Heck they've already gotten burned once, GAF is NOT a news source, the only real news one can take from GAF is how unstoppable and awesome the wedge of the gaf clan is in Resistance online multiplayer. Teh powah of wedge, BELIEVE!!!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/angry.gifROFL, the MGS Triology (sic) for 360 fake news on IGN was very embarrasing. Is that what you're talking about? Because I think they deleted the news entry by stating something regarding GAF debunking that, and I guess their source was related to GAF as well.

Nameless

01-16-2007, 02:16 PM

Once Sony releases some AAA games that can't be done on any other platform all this nonsense will end... Enough said :closed:

Zer0-Sum

01-16-2007, 03:45 PM

Somebody call the fucking "Whaaabulance"!!! PC devs pissed they have to re-learn all their skills? While older console devs are doing nothing but praising the PS3 for the powerhouse it is? Me thinks PC devs are going to be left in the dust while older console devs that made games for PS2 are going to do the dusting. Carmack is bitching too like a little child. If PS3 sucks so damn bad, why are so many devs making games for only PS3? I suspect a heavy amount of WHINING coming from the PC programmers. They can't handle a different way of thinking so they say shit like "This sucks, I hate it!!! WHAAAAAAA!!!!!!".

I like Newell's games, but this ass and all like him need to grow up and stop crying. New times, new skills, get used to it people. it is NEVER going to stop.

And Wii Newell? Ok, what ever. Good system but it is hardly the wave of the future. I guess it is if you like an underpowered system with a controller that has yet to proved over a long period of time.

EDIT: I also seem to remember a ton of PC devs complain about the exact same kind of crap for PS2. "It is too hard to develop for! It sucks! WHAAA!!!! No one will ever make games for this craptastic thing!!! WHAAA!!!!!". Yah, they all ended up looking like fools in the end. Great games were made for PS2 and 100+ million sold. Same will happen for PS3. Newell and his kind just wish they could develop for single core processors forever. Hell, Carmack just said the same thing, that he wished that the console makers went with a faster single core processor. WHAT EVER FOOLS.

Smokey

01-16-2007, 03:58 PM

I WANT TO LISTEN TO MY MUSIC WHEN I'M DOING WHATEVER THE F*CK IT IS I WANT ON MY $600 E-MACHINE! Is that so much to ask for

what is it and this listening to music while i play?

Siraris

01-16-2007, 04:39 PM

If they hate the ps3 that much then leave! don't publish your titles on it! just be prepared to not make profit!

These devs need to sit down, shut up and make games, instead of making empty claims and then making their games for their least favorite system.

I'm sorry dude, but you need to grow up. You don't tell the makers of one of the biggest franchises in history to "leave". If they "leave" then it's Sony who doesn't make a profit, not the other way around.

If developers are complaining about the design of a machine, their complaints are most likely valid. These are the people that have to spend thousands of hours working on a game, sometimes not sleeping or even seeing their families for days. It is Sony's job to listen to the problems these developers are having and address them. The complaints of developers about Sony systems is nothing new, and after 11 years putting out consoles, Sony should be doing something.

The fact that very few if any developers complain about developing for Nintendo and Microsoft, should be very worrisome for Sony.

Zer0-Sum

01-16-2007, 04:48 PM

masteratt

01-16-2007, 04:49 PM

Microsoft uses similar set up to PC and Wii is very similar to Gamecube.
Of course no-one is going to complain.

Sony created something almost entirely new and unless you are a lazy ass of a developer, it's your JOB to learn the system and create the best you can on it.
And many devs have been saying Sony has improved in giving help with development and that the tools are much better than they were in the PS2 days.

So it's pretty obvious only lazy, un-motivated devs complain (no, actually WHINE) about how "PS3 is a disaster".

Keep your PC ports to yourself Valve (right after you bring out Half Life 2 + all the episodes on the PS3 of course lol).

Zer0-Sum

01-16-2007, 05:03 PM

^^ True that. I have al ready beat both HL2 and the expansion on my PC. I want new games from Valve, not ports I have played all ready. They are just more cheap asses trying to make more money off of old IP. Guess again Valve. HL2 was not THAT GOOD. As if I was ever going to buy HL2 for PS3. KillZone 2 anyone???? :rocket:

Dims

01-16-2007, 05:40 PM

Okay, i think it's not really right to be calling the devs lazy just because they complain. First of all, it's almost as if everytime a new playstation is launched they have to rework they're method of programming and changing techniques significantly every 5 years must be time consuming, money guzzling and just a straight up hassle for developers. The PC devs feel in more because with PCs they have a relatively similar working environment with each game, just with the addition of new graphical techniques and GRADUALLY more cores etc, rather than the 7 cores in the PS3 and so on. Secondly, they have to complain outright to the public and allow news on cmments like this to circulate in order to force SONY into a situation where they should do something. If they were quietly asking SONY then they wouldn't have as much power against or create as much hassle for them in order for them to take notice. They don't really need to give specifics either, when SONY asks them directly what the hell their doing and talking about then they can specify to them. Just my 2 cents. :)

Siraris

01-16-2007, 06:45 PM

Hey Siraris, just to let you know, it is just the PC devs that are the ones doing the serious complaining over the PS3. That means they are used to developing for single core systems. They don't want to have to switch over to this much more complicated way of doing things. They all whined the same way over PS2. Blah blah blah. People better get used to it, because multi-core is taking over PC's too.

I'm sorry, but you're flat wrong. The people who are complaining are the people who are having trouble. Perhaps they are being louder than others, but it has nothing to do with developing for the PC. Are they complaining about developing for the three-core 360? No, not whatsoever, only praising Microsoft for their development tools.

They are complaining about the PS3, and the PS2, not only because of the design of the hardware, but they are complaining about this because Sony does not have sufficient tools to help developers to understand how to work with these new architectures. You'd think after how incredibly difficult it was to develop for PS2, Sony would have done something drastic for the PS3, especially with IBM having helped design the system. For whatever reason, Sony decided to let developers once again to mostly go it alone, which is going to cause developers to complain.

This is also the reason that many of the PS3 launch games were so shotty in their level of stability, such as framerate. I am a developer myself, and am currently working on a new architecture for which there is very little documentation and help. I have spent the past week trying to figure out something because it's not documented anywhere and no one has been able to provide me with assistance. In that same period of time, I could have made substantial progression in our program, but I can't do that because I'm banging my head against the wall. I cannot imagine what it must be like for the developers who are trying to work with Cell, and are getting no help from Sony whatsoever.

Zer0-Sum

01-16-2007, 06:53 PM

I'm sorry, but you're flat wrong. The people who are complaining are the people who are having trouble. Perhaps they are being louder than others, but it has nothing to do with developing for the PC. Are they complaining about developing for the three-core 360? No, not whatsoever, only praising Microsoft for their development tools.

They are complaining about the PS3, and the PS2, not only because of the design of the hardware, but they are complaining about this because Sony does not have sufficient tools to help developers to understand how to work with these new architectures. You'd think after how incredibly difficult it was to develop for PS2, Sony would have done something drastic for the PS3, especially with IBM having helped design the system. For whatever reason, Sony decided to let developers once again to mostly go it alone, which is going to cause developers to complain.

This is also the reason that many of the PS3 launch games were so shotty in their level of stability, such as framerate. I am a developer myself, and am currently working on a new architecture for which there is very little documentation and help. I have spent the past week trying to figure out something because it's not documented anywhere and no one has been able to provide me with assistance. In that same period of time, I could have made substantial progression in our program, but I can't do that because I'm banging my head against the wall. I cannot imagine what it must be like for the developers who are trying to work with Cell, and are getting no help from Sony whatsoever.

I am flat wrong? Who else besides PC devs are complaining? I have not seen any one else really bitch to the public on how hard the PS3 is to develop for. I have heard console devs say it is challenging to learn something so radical and new, but they don't whine like PC devs.

And as for support and middleware is is widely know that Sony is having several conferences at GDC on Cell and RSX development. They are helping with more middleware, in fact a thread or two has been posted here to prove it is true.

And btw, where are these frame rate problems you mention coming from? I have heard little of it besides the occasional game. It is not a wide spread problem at all. That is just more FUD.

Old_Timer!

01-16-2007, 07:02 PM

Well most of us know that game development ain't easy, Cpi more or less stated the same thing as you Siraris. But isn't MS just the lesser of 2 evils, their tools isn't the greatest either from what I've heard.
It's been stated that Sony is supposedly sharing their knowledge with AAA devs now so things should be better sooner rather than later.
I was wondering what games where stuttering as well at launch, RFOM is great from all reports, Genji is beautiful but gameplay needed work?

cliffbo

01-16-2007, 07:12 PM

well i was going to learn how to develop games but after hearing how difficult it is to program the ps3 etc.. i think i`ll just wait for them to make it easier to program games you know type in rally game and voila game written gfx done + snd aswell just sit back and rake in the profits ahhh! this is the life.....zzzzzz

:)

VideoGame mania

01-16-2007, 07:16 PM

So he hates everyone I assume http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/9103/Gabe-Newell-Xbox-360-Makes-My-Life-Worse/

Siraris

01-16-2007, 07:25 PM

And btw, where are these frame rate problems you mention coming from? I have heard little of it besides the occasional game. It is not a wide spread problem at all. That is just more FUD.

Call of Duty 3, Full Auto 2, Gundam, Tony Hawk Project 8, Fight Night Round 3, Genji (it wasn't terrible but not perfect).

And again, Gabe Newell may be a PC developer, and John Carmack may be PC developers, but John Carmack, and to a lesser extent, Gabe Newell are very very smart people and would not be making this stuff up. You don't become John Carmack being a lazy developer, you become John Carmack by exploiting the technology that you are given in every way possible. I'm sure if Cell was a pleasure to develop for, Carmack would be singing it's praises for the enjoyment of exploiting it's potential. I know quite a few developers, both PC and console, who love working with new hardware and figuring out how to make it work. Many of them have told me how they want to break the PS2 in half with how frustrating it is to work with.

And again, the 360 has a 3 core processor in there, and not one developer - PC or Console - has uttered a peep complaining about developing for it.

I don't like saying these things, as I'm not a big 360 fan, but it's the truth, and if you want to be blind to the facts that's your perogative. I'm comfortable enough with myself and the situation to admit it.

yoshaw

01-16-2007, 07:38 PM

I cannot imagine what it must be like for the developers who are trying to work with Cell, and are getting no help from Sony whatsoever.

WTF?!

Don't you feel that sort of a claim is rather unsubstantiated? What proof do you have to even align that particular conclusion with respect to Gabe's remarks? Please elaborate.

I ask for reason because it fails to get to me that as a console developer Sony is providing 'no help whatsoever' as was the claim from you. Sorry for pulling legs here.

They might not have industry's best tools, that I can agree with, but we are at odds when you put it like that. Maybe CPI can help answer this better, as I too only know Sony's part to be helpful via their PSSG staff conferences and various keynotes throughtout the last two years. And I believe that the most vocal out of all of Sony's divisions has been the SCEE group with their arms wide open approach with developers & helping 'em with Cell development.

cliffbo

01-16-2007, 07:49 PM

if what they are saying is true then does that mean that the 2nd party devs who make lair or resistance are liars then?

gabe newell has gone on record as being against multi-core processors and has made complaints about the 360 cpu also the only reason he likes pc multi-core is because he dors not have to learn anything new to program it,and john carmack`s comments about the ps3 cpu being difficult to program came from a leading quesrion by a G4 interviwer but if you listen to his full answer he say`s the ps3 cpu is diffocult to program but is a more powerful cpu which will take some time to master.

and one final note both GN and JC are good friends of BG and PM and want to promote pc`s with vista installed i smell a monopoly..

:)

Siraris

01-16-2007, 07:53 PM

and one final note both GN and JC are good friends of BG and PM and want to promote pc`s with vista installed i smell a monopoly..

:)

Actually, JC recently spoke out against Vista, saying it was not worth the upgrade and not the jump that 2000 -> XP was. I don't think Gabe ever said anything about Vista.

Siraris

01-16-2007, 07:55 PM

WTF?!

Don't you feel that sort of a claim is rather unsubstantiated? What proof do you have to even align that particular conclusion with respect to Gabe's remarks? Please elaborate.

I ask for reason because it fails to get to me that as a console developer Sony is providing 'no help whatsoever' as was the claim from you. Sorry for pulling legs here.

They might not have industry's best tools, that I can agree with, but we are at odds when you put it like that. Maybe CPI can help answer this better, as I too only know Sony's part to be helpful via their PSSG staff conferences and various keynotes throughtout the last two years. And I believe that the most vocal out of all of Sony's divisions has been the SCEE group with their arms wide open approach with developers & helping 'em with Cell development.

I thought it was pretty well known that Sony has only been providing assistance for first party developers, and are only now providing assistance to the third party developers.

cliffbo

01-16-2007, 08:16 PM

Actually, JC recently spoke out against Vista, saying it was not worth the upgrade and not the jump that 2000 -> XP was. I don't think Gabe ever said anything about Vista.

new ip`s from both are rumored to run on vista only so they don`t have to state anything do they? also for crisis to run at it`s best it needs a vista system many other games are rumored to be vista only titles also if you want dx10 you must have vista
i`d say users will be forced over to vista whether they want it or not and if companies like valve and ID move over to vsta only or cut features unnecessarily they are not against vista are they?

:)

Siraris

01-16-2007, 08:19 PM

new ip`s from both are rumored to run on vista only so they don`t have to state anything do they? also for crisis to run at it`s best it needs a vista system many other games are rumored to be vista only titles also if you want dx10 you must have vista
i`d say users will be forced over to vista whether they want it or not and if companies like valve and ID move over to vsta only or cut features unnecessarily they are not against vista are they?
:)

Crysis does not need Vista, it needs DX10. The fact that Microsoft is integrating DX10 into Vista, and not releasing it for XP is really shitty. There is nothing about Vista, aside from DX10, that is necessary to run any game.

cliffbo

01-16-2007, 08:34 PM

i know that but if devs did`nt support vista they would not create games that were vista only if they really believe that vista is not a essential upgrade they could petition ms to release a dx10 for other pc users this would enable people to upgrade to the new nvidia cards and make the choice for themselves whether they want vista or not.

:)

ded5850

01-17-2007, 12:15 AM

Does anyone have any links to some sources stating Sony's Third-Party support? I just wanna know the truth. What's really going on with Sony? What does it look like down the road for me and my console?

Oh wait, I said I didn't have expectations anymore :dur:

gozirah

01-17-2007, 12:43 AM

So much anger. Yeah, too bad there are no bells and whistles on the PS3. And also too bad, there won't be any firmware upgrades to add features and keep the system fresh. (Just kidding! :P) I think there is this unfair expectation that because the competition is pretty established, the PS3 has to hit the ground running at mach 3. Probably Sony's going to come up with there own offerings when they're ready, and they may differ from X360 just so you can um have consumer choices. If you don't feel like waiting, you could buy your PS3 later, or if you already own one you could not look at it until later.

As for difficulty in development. The cell is new and different. Do you think Sony is withholding development tools out of spite? Plus MS loves hand holding people.

As for exclusives, Sony had new IP's in development. Change is good.

^^I could not have said it better myself. And the actual functionality of the console is something to desire as well, when looking at all the benefits The Dashboard has to offer.

I said it before and I'll say it again: I WANT TO LISTEN TO MY MUSIC WHEN I'M DOING WHATEVER THE F*CK IT IS I WANT ON MY $600 E-MACHINE! Is that so much to ask for? With Next gen starting with Sony, I came expacting everything 360 has to offer and then some. I'm left wanting.

However, i did not mean to begin a "PS3 owner - woe is me" thread. I simply had some grips I wanted to let out. Glade to see I'm not the only one not seeing the bigger picture here.

Zer0-Sum

01-17-2007, 12:46 AM

GTShotoKen

01-17-2007, 01:33 AM

i agree, i never heard of him until i read this article.

Yes, HL/HL2 were some of the best fps's ever but it takes more then two games to become a "heavyweight", i think they just said it so it looks like an exclusive interview with someone well known when it is not.

Hey, people don't come out with AAA games that often, so it doesn't take many to be well known.

I really understand his title as a heavyweight in the industry. His works are what is keeping much of the PC gaming industry alive.

The Hammer editor and Source engine have brought new life into the modding community and has gotten many unknown developers to get their names out their.

Getting that out of the way, I know he's very underwhelmed by where cpu development in general is going.

I pretty sure he will get over this hurdle eventually since he has no choice as a game developer. I know it's pretty overwhelming to be in an industry where software developers have to follow the wants of hardware engineers instead of hardware engineers following the needs of the software developers.

Oh well, just suck it up Gabe and keep making good games like the rest of the heavy weights out there (Go Kojima...and Cpiasminc!!!!). ;)

Applefiend

01-17-2007, 01:59 AM

The thing about Gabe Newell is he started out inside Microsoft and is still a company man. That's why Half Life never made it to the Mac, he asked for outragious money for the source code so little companies like Aspyr and MacPlay couldn't do the port. Gave Mac users the finger.

The guys who do this, that is give you all the glass half empty stuff and none of the glass half full stuff tend to be Microsoft insiders.

JC: "Cell is a pain is the ass" [deleted] "but very powerful".

Garfunkel

01-17-2007, 02:01 AM

if he wants the processor market to remain exclusively single core and not have any advances because there is only limited potential left with single core arrangelments then he's a fool.

Sony has made many advancement with dev tools for the ps3 over the ps2 just look at the new middleware support from havok and such. Yes MS's dev tools would be better but where is XNA got itself to?

And yes crysis does need vista to run 100%, you need DX10 which is only available in vista.

Zer0-Sum

01-17-2007, 02:12 AM

You all know what it really comes down too? It comes down to everyone in the game engine programming world to re-learn a bunch of skills they have depended on for over a decade of game development and more, depending on the programmer. But this always happens in the computer world in general. Skills follow software at a faster rate and hardware at a slower rate. They are just pissed that they have to learn new skills. It takes time and effort, but that is the name of the game. Do they have a choice? Not really. All systems are doing this, from PCs to consoles. It is the hardware manufactures that are in control of this because. So I guess they had better get used to it. Intel and AMD are doing the same. So what is the difference except that Cell is such a radical design?

mario25

01-17-2007, 02:50 AM

I bet gabe can't code for something 1 instruction different from an x86 architecture to save his life.......

Applefiend

01-17-2007, 03:03 AM

Well, you know, the Half Life series absolutely rocks, if Gabe was here I'd be so kissing ass right now: "Oh Gabe your games are the best!". :)

I think the first next gen game I played was Half Life 2 Lost Coast. That was 100% what I expected of next gen.

Clearly, a god in his own Microsoft PC shooter world but won't make much of a dent in the PS3 world. He's the last person I'd expect to be sitting up at night thinking: "What can I do with sixaxis, what can I do with Blu Ray and the SPEs", I imagine him thinking "PS3, pain in the ass but I can make some money off a port for HL3, need the money guy!".

Old_Timer!

01-17-2007, 03:24 AM

The thing is that companies don't want to spend the time and money that it's gonna take to teach their devs new ways of coding, I'm not sure if what Gabe said about pararell processing is completely true of just half truths to get his point across.

So far the pc dev community seems to think that the single processor method is still the way to go, yet pc makers are pushing for multi-core and IBM/Sony/Toshiba have pushed ahead of the rest.

Here are a few devs against the multi-core/Sony agenda, these are just the pc so called unbiased devs that I can think of right now feel free to ad to list.
John Carmack - Id(Doom)
Mark Reign - Epic Games(Unreal Tnt, GoW)
Gabe Newell - Valve(Half Life, Counterstrike)

and here are few for
Tim Sweeney - Epic Games(Unreal Tnt, GoW)

ded5850

01-17-2007, 07:09 AM

Say, since this is one of the first few threads I've started, and it's made it 3 pages already, you guys think I could get a lil rep?

woundingchaney

01-17-2007, 09:43 AM

Gabe doesnt seem overly fond of the PS3 or the 360 this go around but at least he has an opinion, although I would have approved of more clarification. I get sick of reading the repeated PR nonsense and cheerleader mentality from many of the prestigious console devs and publishing houses (on any side of the fence).

I dont necessarily think that the pc dev community is "against" multicore developing but they are addressing it more openly as an issue than their console counter-parts.