Reaction From Microsoft on PS3's Home [Archive]

xone_4

03-09-2007, 10:10 PM

Chris Satchell, general manager of Microsoft's Game Developer Group, dismissed it to CVG, saying it was "not a very game-centric approach."

"I think they've definitely taken some concepts that we originated like achievements, but I think they're pushing in a different direction and we've sort of fundamentally got two different approaches going on here. I think theres is very much a vision that people see it and it looks cool but it's fundamentally separate from the games - or at least what they've shown so far," Satchell continued. "It's a cool world but it's like a little game by itself. Our approach is the other way around; it's that games are the center and that's the star of the show, that's what people buy the console for."

On the user-created content front, which seems primary in Sony's initiatives, Satchell says that Forza Motorsport 2 will offer gamers a lot of options. "You're able to take a car out, completely paint it, completely mod it, tune it and you're able to auction it online, take the funds from that and reimburse them in the game to do whatever you want," he details. "That's great user-generated content. It's not building a world but if you're into racing games it's just as meaningful."

Still, Satchell likes LittleBigPlanet's unique offerings. "I think LittleBigPlanet is very cool," he commented. "But I can't see a big portfolio of games at the moment that do this. I don't think there's a whole load to catch up."

Full article
http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=15444

MS cant have anything on HOME apparently?!

Kabbage

03-09-2007, 10:13 PM

Fundamentally separate from games... Really?

Media

03-09-2007, 10:17 PM

Isn't the whole point of Home to take game lobbies, media content, and user interaction to a different level?

Kabbage

03-09-2007, 10:18 PM

Isn't the whole point of Home to take game lobbies, media content, and user interaction to a different level? More or less. I think Phil even mention how your private space could basically double as your clan headquarters before games or something of the sort.

frosty

03-09-2007, 10:20 PM

Derrick Barra

03-09-2007, 10:21 PM

Isn't the whole point of Home to take game lobbies, media content, and user interaction to a different level?

He's saying that Microsoft felt that they'd rather have the game-centric approach, while Sony took the "World-Hub" approach in order to pay for the actuality that the service is free (through advertising). Which one people choose in the end depends on Halo 3, whether Sony catches up to Xbox Live in most of it's functionality in time, and on Microsofts decision on if they want their own version of "Home".

Personally I would like to see Home on the 360, but I'm not too keen on unplugging my keyboard and mouse everytime I want to plug it into my 360/PS3, someone needs to figure out a way around this! (USB splitter?)

Media

03-09-2007, 10:22 PM

Haha, I was actually going to point that out as well! (to Frosty)

I don't think anyone can really rain on PS3's parade right now, though, as much as they may try. Sony picked a good time to feed fans some information, now we can steadily chew on it till E3.

The Dude

03-09-2007, 10:23 PM

Um... contradiction anyone?

I think he means that it doesn't intergrate into other games, and that its more on it's own terms as a game in it's self. At least that how I read it.

Domination

03-09-2007, 10:24 PM

"I think they've definitely taken some concepts that we originated like achievements, but I think they're pushing in a different direction and we've sort of fundamentally got two different approaches going on here. I think theres is very much a vision that people see it and it looks cool but it's fundamentally separate from the games - or at least what they've shown so far," Satchell continued. "It's a cool world but it's like a little game by itself. Our approach is the other way around; it's that games are the center and that's the star of the show, that's what people buy the console for."

On the user-created content front, which seems primary in Sony's initiatives, Satchell says that Forza Motorsport 2 will offer gamers a lot of options. "You're able to take a car out, completely paint it, completely mod it, tune it and you're able to auction it online, take the funds from that and reimburse them in the game to do whatever you want," he details. "That's great user-generated content. It's not building a world but if you're into racing games it's just as meaningful."

Wrong! The difference between their strategy and Sony's strategy is Sony's strategy being integrated into the hardware, and not a server. So not only does it allow you to access these features anytime you want when you go under these icons while out of gameplay, but it also allows developers to build their games around these icons to where they become a standard, game related feature. Like I said, because the media view only what's infront of them, they lose the entire meaning and purpose behind the strategy.

masteratt

03-09-2007, 10:25 PM

Invite four people to your "Private Space", play a game of MotorStorm online, quit and you are back at your private space with those people.

It really is like you invited them to your HOME in real life minus the lack of space and everyone stealing your beers.
EDIT: This was a reply to Media but 5 more replies came by the time I typed this post.

More On-topic:
At least he doesn't sound like a typical MS PR moron and sounded quite reasonable but he was talking bullshit so....But hey it's better than talking bullshit and being a moron than just talking bullshit.

I bet MS rushed to the labs after they saw HOME to counter it. Too bad your 360 can't handle it. Check aaaand mate.

Media

03-09-2007, 10:25 PM

Well, honestly, he has nothing to base his opinion of it "not being integrated into games" on. From that video, Home is basically a huge online gaming lobby, with an added level of interaction.

ollin

03-09-2007, 10:25 PM

Peter Moore's comment a few months ago
It is not in Sony's DNA to be able to get that up and running from zero. We learned from the get go that you want single gamer profiles, you want consistent presence. I want to know where you are and what you're playing.

It's going to take them a couple of years to get up to speed on this. And I'm not sure that they necessarily have the talent, or that it's built into who they are as a company.
Try saying that now.

Media

03-09-2007, 10:26 PM

THAT'S check and mate, right there.

And Fats, stop looking at this thread and post something.

Fats

03-09-2007, 10:27 PM

@ Ollin - That was a ridiculous comment to make in the first place in my opinion.

xone_4

03-09-2007, 10:35 PM

Another hugely important aspect of Home—some would say it's Sony's answer to Xbox achievements—is the Hall of Fame. By playing PS3 games, users will be able to gain 3D trophies and they'll also be able to see what trophies they can unlock for all games, which Harrison said he thinks will give gamers further incentive to purchase PS3 titles, and will "create loyalty and excitement around PS3."

i think the upgrading flexibility of HOME can make any element of any game is
a HOME element.

Harrison also stressed that the tools used to create Home are the same tools based around Maya that are used to create PS3 titles, and it's a very low cost to build 3D spaces in Home. Again, GameDaily BIZ can only imagine the huge marketing potential this service will have once it's really up and running.

MS need about 2-3 yaers to copy HOME so they cant do anything about it i think (except badmouthing it) ;)

Media

03-09-2007, 10:42 PM

Remember comrades, don't bash MS!

I know it's hard to react nicely when you're a fan, but it's easier to support than attack anyway, right?

xone_4

03-09-2007, 10:48 PM

original post was edited

i think they are loosing already and you know what even if its not "gaming centric" it will attract non-gamers and PS3 will turn into something like skyp (a communication tool) and we will see a father in some family live out of his home and talking to his children using these amazing technology and then the PS3 will sell 200 Million units :)

Media

03-09-2007, 10:50 PM

The thing that excites me about Home is that it takes almost every hope I've ever had for an online service, and culminates it into one thing on my PS3 (or rather the PS3 I will soon purchase). I've waited a long time for something like this, and I'm glad Sony was the one to have incorporated it; makes the 600 bucks seem like less.

satriales

03-09-2007, 10:55 PM

Personally I would like to see Home on the 360, but I'm not too keen on unplugging my keyboard and mouse everytime I want to plug it into my 360/PS3, someone needs to figure out a way around this! (USB splitter?)
The soloution is simple. Keep the keyboard and mouse plugged ionto your PS3 most of the time, but then after a couple of months when you decide to turn on the 360 ;) you can swap them over and then back straight into the PS3 afterwards for a few more months.

Seriously though, don't be so lazy. The USB ports are at the front on both consoles :)

xone_4

03-09-2007, 10:56 PM

@media, you know every time i think i have to download second life and start using it i have hope that sony release something more powerful and complete, and i think the wait is over.

jaxmkii

03-09-2007, 10:59 PM

but I'm not too keen on unplugging my keyboard and mouse everytime I want to plug it into my 360/PS3, someone needs to figure out a way around this! (USB splitter?)
talk with your BT head set...:pepper: :djparty: :pepper:

Shadow Voa

03-09-2007, 11:00 PM

I like how this is in the Xbox forums and more Sony fans come here. I wonder why that is? Its quite amusing, if Gljvd was still here it would be more fair. :(

jaxmkii

03-09-2007, 11:07 PM

I like how this is in the Xbox forums and more Sony fans come here. I wonder why that is? Its quite amusing, if Gljvd was still here it would be more fair. :( why did he leave? and what is so unfair in here?

cliffbo

03-09-2007, 11:08 PM

I like how this is in the Xbox forums and more Sony fans come here. I wonder why that is? Its quite amusing, if Gljvd was still here it would be more fair. :(

EH? Sony fans come here because its a PS3 forum, if its been posted in the xbox forums then thats fair because its MS... no problem. basically the only fair place to post this would be in the Nintendo forum???!!!!

LaLiLuLeLo

03-09-2007, 11:09 PM

gljvd was banned.

permanently.

I like how basically MS' spokesperson had a round about way of saying, 'it's cool, but that's not what we're trying to do.'

or

'I could dance like that, if I felt like it.'
DX

Steemo

03-09-2007, 11:13 PM

Quote:
Chris Satchell, general manager of Microsoft's Game Developer Group, dismissed it [Home] to CVG, saying it was "not a very game-centric approach.":

On the user-created content front, which seems primary in Sony's initiatives, Satchell says that Forza Motorsport 2 will offer gamers a lot of options. "You're able to take a car out, completely paint it, completely mod it, tune it and you're able to auction it online, take the funds from that and reimburse them in the game to do whatever you want," he details. "That's great user-generated content. It's not building a world but if you're into racing games it's just as meaningful."

Quote:
HOME is planned to come to PSP's and Mobiles,
- User-created content can be made,
- There will be an auction service for you to sell your Home assets and user-created content to gain revenue,

Sony takes it to the next level.

jaxmkii

03-09-2007, 11:20 PM

^ Lol@ms

SleazyBig slim

03-09-2007, 11:23 PM

Truth of the matter is even thoughthat statement is complete bull and couldn't be further from the truth xbots will eat this up.

Sephiroth_VII

03-09-2007, 11:26 PM

xone_4

03-09-2007, 11:46 PM

and ther is one more thing!
what do you think they call it "Cell Broadband Engine" for!?
it is network centered machine from the start :)

Domination

03-09-2007, 11:54 PM

Garfunkel

03-10-2007, 02:30 AM

360 can't do something exactly like Home, for a very simple reason: They don't have enough memory dedicated to the OS during a game. So, if MS was to launch a Home-clone, it wouldn't be able to run while playing a game, and that'd make a lot of the features impossible.

yep, you are right, this is why sony left that bracket for the firmware, they kinda fooled ms into thinking that their firmware was bloated, but then they unleash home and bam!

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 02:51 AM

yep, you are right, this is why sony left that bracket for the firmware, they kinda fooled ms into thinking that their firmware was bloated, but then they unleash home and bam!

i've caught you! Garfunkel LOL, vipers next muoahahahahah.....

LiquidEagle

03-10-2007, 03:00 AM

I think it's safe to say, without bashing MS or Nintendo, that Sony's GDC announcement really hit a nerve. The way everybody (but those pesky trolls) has reacted to it definitely should get both companies shaking.

curryking1

03-10-2007, 03:20 AM

What would you expect the guy to say though.

It obviously slanted, but that's what you're gonna get talking about the other team's material.

Just one observation I must make.

Why do we care what MS says about Sony, or what Sony says about MS? Seriously? It's quite pointless to take anything they say about each other with any level of seriousness.

All there is to it ---------------> We know Home is frigging cool, and anyone and everyone with half a brain either appreciates Home or at least acknowledges that it's an interesting move with some possibilities for greatness........ and that's all there is to it.

Rip3001

03-10-2007, 03:45 AM

That's odd...I expected nothing but praise from Microsoft in regards to Sony's HOME...most peculiar.

I guess it just doesn't make sense to them...kinda like HDMI.

OmniCloud

03-10-2007, 04:02 AM

I wish Home launched sooner than fall though, that's my only gripe really, I'm ready to make my avatar and go online with you guys right now!

Warning-My apartment will be rated mature:shifty:

Garfunkel

03-10-2007, 04:07 AM

my apartment will be like quagmire's apartment...

but i still want an e-mpire mansion/palace, the biggest estate in the land, where all are welcome. and when you get banned, viper and the other admins come and slap you. lol.

another idea for home would be to have the moderators of the world as cops. they travel around and do things that way instead of just seeing what every user does and acting upon it.

PlayBoy

03-10-2007, 04:12 AM

Um... contradiction anyone?I think the whole Xbox is a contradiction, a bastard son of PC, self-proclaimed hi-def console without hi-def disc...

OmniCloud

03-10-2007, 04:13 AM

I think the whole Xbox is a contradiction, a bastard son of PC, self-proclaimed hi-def console without hi-def disc...Ouch:(

Krad

03-10-2007, 04:23 AM

I wonder how EA is reacting to this.

Why make a "The Sims" game if there's already something there just like it, and free.

The Dude

03-10-2007, 04:25 AM

Any one know how much money this whole "Home" thing is going to cost Sony? Just curious.

Sephiroth_VII

03-10-2007, 04:26 AM

My Home will probably have a gaming room, a living room, a bathroom with a nice tub, and a private room with live shows, pink fluffy cotton, neon, and pretty pictures on the walls. :smoke:

Any one know how much money this who "Home" thing is going to cost Sony? Just curious.
It's been in development since before the birth of the PS2, so a lot. Though I think they'll get their money back quickly through ads and micro transactions.

OmniCloud

03-10-2007, 04:29 AM

Any one know how much money this who "Home" thing is going to cost Sony? Just curious.No clue...but obviously they are going to try and milk consumers with download-able content for your avatars/games/apartment/etc...

They are willing to take a few risk....I like:)

frosty

03-10-2007, 05:03 AM

They'll profit from it very quickly. Imagine all the corporations waiting impatiently for it to launch so they can give sony money to build their little module onto it to advertise their products.

curryking1

03-10-2007, 05:18 AM

^Seriously...

Like my god, if this thing gets big, and it just might, it'll be really, really, really mofoing big.

LaLiLuLeLo

03-10-2007, 05:29 AM

well if you purchase content on the online store, more than say, twice a month, then they're already getting more money back than ms does for xbox live. XBL is like, 5 bucks a month roughly. But if you buy a 5-10 dollar game on the PSN a month (and they come out at least at that frequency) then they're making more back already. The reason I'm cool with this is, I'm actually buying content and not just the ability to play shit online.

curryking1

03-10-2007, 05:40 AM

Well people do buy stuff on XBL, so that must be factored in.

But the initial thing is where it counts. You get in for free.

There's no split between who is in it and who isn't. Everyone's got access and Sony is smartly allowing the consumer to plop their wallet down exactly how they please. There's no down payment, just buy the additional content you want.

I love the approach honestly. Because me? I'm not going to ever buy anything on it, I'll just say that right now. I'm not gonna be spending money.

What I am getting for free though? A crapload of features that are arguably going to be the best damn package. For freaking free!!!

It's like MSN, Habbo Hotel, AIM, Ventrilo, and gaming with buddies and even more in one freaking package...... FREE!

FFF!!! (It stands for "For Freaking Free!!!")

LaLiLuLeLo

03-10-2007, 05:43 AM

FFF!
just sounds like that sound the characters make on hamtaro.
:P
But yeah, I was reluctant to buy anything at first. But give it time. You'll succumb.

curryking1

03-10-2007, 05:54 AM

LaLiLuLeLo

03-10-2007, 05:57 AM

You can and you will.

Voidler

03-10-2007, 05:59 AM

The fact that they need to make a reaction shows it has made a significant impact

jaxmkii

03-10-2007, 06:07 AM

I wonder if i can buy a boat to live in rather than a appt?...

LaLiLuLeLo

03-10-2007, 06:12 AM

I wonder if i can buy a boat to live in rather than a appt?...

:troutslap

jaxmkii

03-10-2007, 06:15 AM

i hope i can dress in the raggest cloths have stink rays come off me when i walk and im gunna sleep on benches.

LaLiLuLeLo

03-10-2007, 06:15 AM

prepare to have your hopes raised and dashed expertly!

jaxmkii

03-10-2007, 06:18 AM

i wonder what kinda FUD MS is cooking up right now about HOME?...

curryking1

03-10-2007, 06:19 AM

^Come on jax! There's no need for that kind of thinking. Don't build a predisposition for something, it's only a creation in your mind, that's all this stupid fanbot war is. It not worth it man!

jaxmkii

03-10-2007, 06:38 AM

agreed its all to easy to fall into that trap.

Garfunkel

03-10-2007, 06:41 AM

if we have a e-mpire mansion, we can have a room "the madhouse" which has porn and naked woman all over the walls (not joking), a video room where we show heaps of trailers and video previews and stuff. A presentation room, where we all gather around and watch GDC/TGS/E3 etc, a games room, a chat room, a bathroom, a kitchen etc etc. IT WOULD BE SOOOOO KEWLLLL!!!!

frosty

03-10-2007, 07:40 AM

er, we don't even allow porn in the madhouse...

LiquidEagle

03-10-2007, 07:43 AM

:lol:

I'm totally going to take pictures of my MGS posters and then turn them into posters in my virtual apartment.

Garfunkel

03-10-2007, 07:56 AM

er, we don't even allow porn in the madhouse...

err...yes...of course we don't, there's no secret stash of porn...

seriously for a minute, just because we have a no porn policy in the madhouse doesn't mean we can't post porn in the e-mpire mansion in Home ;) After all, if we do do it we will all pitch in money so nobody will actually OWN it.

that is unless Omega buys a 51% share. LOL

Applefiend

03-10-2007, 08:07 AM

Garfunkel

03-10-2007, 08:31 AM

but we need our own!

Red_Eyes

03-10-2007, 09:25 AM

A typical Microsoft reaction.
First, diss it.
Then after seeing how successful it is, finally copies and implements it too, but requiring another add-on.
Just like HDMI and 1080P.

Zer0-Sum

03-10-2007, 10:06 AM

The soloution is simple. Keep the keyboard and mouse plugged ionto your PS3 most of the time, but then after a couple of months when you decide to turn on the 360 ;) you can swap them over and then back straight into the PS3 afterwards for a few more months.

Seriously though, don't be so lazy. The USB ports are at the front on both consoles :)

One Word: BlueTooth

But really, Home is everything I could want in an on-line service. I expect the social interaction will very high on the PSN with the advent of Home. This has been all don't to some degree or another in Second Life, but Sony will whip SL's ass and do it a million times better. I am actually excited about the on-line feature set Sony is creating.

Microsoft and Nintendo are both just being a couple jealous haters. They dismiss something that is obviously very well thought out and designed. Sony has pulled a fast one that is simply awesome. Sony has pimp slapped them in the on-line venue. I knew that XBL would be make irrelevant as a 360 advantage. Sony has not only made up all it's supposed lost time with this plan against XBL, but IMO they have shot passed it and aren't going to look back as Microsoft eats their dust.

Viano

03-10-2007, 10:14 AM

ok, this is next gen

Sypher

03-10-2007, 10:27 AM

Sony just trumped the 360 for the rest of this gen. If Microsoft decides to copy this idea it would mean the disbanding of LIVE. The reason being that Sony never had an online service, unified anyway. LIVE just cant up and go "well were switching from text based to avatar based"

The 360 out of the 3 is in the worst position for online right now. It can't adopt a new concept of online until next gen, its already set its foundation in the minds of consumers and the media, and its a charged service. Whereas Sony and even Nintendo are working with clean slates. The general perception will be this:

360: You know your online and it very apparent. Uniformed but monotonous

PS3: Are you online? In a game? Just hanging with friends? Subtle Pervasiveness

Wii: Dilapidated but precise in certain areas

Garfunkel

03-10-2007, 11:20 AM

Applefiend

03-10-2007, 12:02 PM

Yeah, it's coming to a point where I no longer care about what 360 is doing, all they do is work out new ways to make people pay extra for services that were once free and publish new first person shooters and I don't see why I should care about anything they do anymore, because they way they act pleases their fans, so they'll keep on doing it.

The more I think about Home the more I like it. Someone said this is like My Space. It's kinda. My Space is "My 2D Space", Home is "My 3D Space".

I hope your house has an answering machine for messages. :)

Garfunkel

03-10-2007, 12:11 PM

oooh, a messaging machine would be awesome!

maybe sony should bring this to the pc in some way, it might not be quite as advanced for a while, but maybe both services could intertwine and co-exist in some way.

Applefiend

03-10-2007, 12:19 PM

Yeah, see how many devices they can integrate it with. Pick up your mobile phone messages in your Home, pick up your home messages on your mobile phone. It's all very groovy.

Garfunkel

03-10-2007, 12:24 PM

OmniCloud

03-10-2007, 02:12 PM

Hamtaro!!! FFF!!!

No seriously though... for the buying stuff.. I have an insanely strong conditioned aversion to not buy stuff off the internet or pay mini payment things. I just can't do it man!1!!!!1One word for ya Curry-flOw...

I thought I'd never download stuff either. But it's very easy to add a quick $20 to your wallet and experience an awesome $7 game....

Domination

03-10-2007, 02:14 PM

Any one know how much money this whole "Home" thing is going to cost Sony? Just curious.

I would imagine not as much as their competitors. Sony doesn't manage Home; Home manages itself with the Cell broadband engine. This is the difference between Microsoft's strategy and Sony's strategy. Because Sony is a hardware company first and a software company second, they work from the areas in which they are more experienced.

OmniCloud

03-10-2007, 02:18 PM

exactly, take over the world with it. lol.

it's so ironic that sony destroyed ms from the software point of view. then again, it's not as if ms can make decent software either.

It's a funny war, all previous generations were fought on the hardware battlefield, now it's being fought with software. I am thinking that the company that makes the best software will win this generation, the difference will not be cell/BD etc.I think it will split a little bit between hardware and software. I'd give software the nod though, but certainly Cell and Blu-ray will stretch PS3's legs longer than any other console. I don't think the Ps3's software will ever be stagnant...

It'll be interesting to have a survey on the forums to see who is excited for and will be there day one on Home. I mean the fact that it's free almost guarantees that most PS3 owners will at least try it out. But I'm interested in seeing if this will really be a 3D myspace or not. Its really just a Very cool and unique friends-meeting place, but extras, Oh my goodness the extras=-o!

ddaryl

03-10-2007, 02:36 PM

exactly, take over the world with it. lol.

it's so ironic that sony destroyed ms from the software point of view. then again, it's not as if ms can make decent software either.

It's a funny war, all previous generations were fought on the hardware battlefield, now it's being fought with software. I am thinking that the company that makes the best software will win this generation, the difference will not be cell/BD etc.

I sorta disagree with the software comments.

Hardware is still more vital in the big picture, and the only reason Sony's "Home" is so intruiging is because of the extreme power of the cell. Without the cell "Home" don't exist.

Blu-Ray will also play its part, and that argument has been done to death.

I do agree that software is what it takes to get the hardware to stand out, but software is only as capable as the hardware will let it be! Sony has blu-ray, standard HDDD, and the cell / RSX combo, and those pieces of hardware are going to take the PS3 further in all departments.

Sony is hardware 1st, and it is why the Playstation name brand rules the videogame industry !!!

OmniCloud

03-10-2007, 02:52 PM

http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=2185

probably has been posted...but Phil talks to gametrailer's staff about Home...very nice

Domination

03-10-2007, 02:54 PM

I think MS just got to high and mighty with Live, they thought that Live was just too good, that them being a software company just gave them so much of an advantage that nobody would top them. I think that as soon as the ps2's online was done and dusted, sony immediately started brainstorming ways to bite them back ten times harder. And they did it, by jolly did they do it.

Now i can imagine there would be a few tensions at MS HQ right now. they can't implement something similar and even if they did they would soon run out of RAM. It was a foolish decision for them to stick to live and rest on their laurels.

I agree with you here. In many ways I feel Microsoft has done very good with Live, but at the sametime, and I remember mentioning this awhile back, they were exposing far too many weaknesses to Sony by using Live as their bread and butter to trump them, and the bad part is, they made it too well known. It's like Phil said in a very dated interview, Microsoft is putting all of their eggs in one basket by depending on Live. Sony basically had these guys expose their entire hand by showing them only a fraction of their online strategy just to hit them with a massive blow once they were all softened up. Given the markets these guys [Sony] usually compete in every single day, I wasn't surprised by this move at all.

This move so reminds me of the Double Life advertisement by them.

woundingchaney

03-10-2007, 03:01 PM

I would imagine not as much as their competitors. Sony doesn't manage Home; Home manages itself with the Cell broadband engine. This is the difference between Microsoft's strategy and Sony's strategy. Because Sony is a hardware company first and a software company second, they work from the areas in which they are more experienced.

There will be a large cost to Sony have no doubt about that. Although they are talking of incorporating a very profitable microtransaction venture (home could be very profitable even from the beginning). With just some of the aspects they are talking about incorporating (private rooms game lobbies microtransactions) there is going to have to be a serious amount of modding and quite a bit of software incorporation into the whole aspect.

This is largely a software venture. Home could exist with or without the Cell engine.

-As far as MS statements:

I think they were rather respectful they saw it to be what it is, a great concept. I thought maybe their statment on Home is a bit premature but just about everything about home right now is premature.

As long as Sony can nail the integration of Home I simply cant see it being anything other than a success. Home cannot exist as an aspect of PSN, Home must be PSN (which is something Im sure Sony is aware of).

Domination

03-10-2007, 03:09 PM

There will be a large cost to Sony have no doubt about that. Although they are talking of incorporating a very profitable microtransaction venture (home could be very profitable even from the beginning). With just some of the aspects they are talking about incorporating (private rooms game lobbies microtransactions) there is going to have to be a serious amount of modding and quite a bit of software incorporation into the whole aspect.

This is largely a software venture. Home could exist with or without the Cell engine.

-As far as MS statements:

I think they were rather respectful they saw it to be what it is, a great concept. I thought maybe their statment on Home is a bit premature but just about everything about home right now is premature.

As long as Sony can nail the integration of Home I simply cant see it being anything other than a success. Home cannot exist as an aspect of PSN, Home must be PSN (which is something Im sure Sony is aware of).

In Sony's case, it required the Cell in order to be stable. Remember, the Cell joints with others Cells through a broadband connection to increase performance without having to manage it. Think protein folding.

Could this exist elsewhere? Of course it could, but you will have to make that investment and constantly manage it.

woundingchaney

03-10-2007, 03:11 PM

In Sony's case, it require the Cell in order to be stable. Remember, the Cell joints with others Cell through a broadband connects to increase performance without have to manage it. Think protein folding.

Could this exist elsewhere? Of course it could, but you will have to make that investment and constantly manage it.

Sony built Home around Cell (or at least I would have) so of course the cell is needing. Im saying that the while the Cell is a pivotal aspect of Home it could have been done with other hardware (to what extent good or bad is anyones guess).

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 03:11 PM

if Sony can get many companies on board, Coka-cola, nike, Toshiba, Microsoft, Games.... etc.. lol, then they will be able to keep it free. don't discount any company. the internet is rapidly becoming the single most important aspect of advertising and to miss out on this would be cutting your nose to spite your face. i would also imagine a small fee to see the latest movies were as older movies will be free as on TV. if i was to list all the possible ways of garnering revenue i'd fill this page, so hopefully it will remain free.

Viano

03-10-2007, 03:13 PM

this is 4Deeeee

Domination

03-10-2007, 03:16 PM

Sony built Home around Cell (or at least I would have) so of course the cell is needing. Im saying that the while the Cell is a pivotal aspect of Home it could have been done with other hardware (to what extent good or bad is anyones guess).

I'm not denying that at all, Wounding. In fact, I completely agree with you on that aspect.

Only because Sony isn't as wealthy as Microsoft, they had to play from their strengths and their intelligences to compete with them. I saw this coming a mile away.

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 03:17 PM

Sony built Home around Cell (or at least I would have) so of course the cell is needing. Im saying that the while the Cell is a pivotal aspect of Home it could have been done with other hardware (to what extent good or bad is anyones guess).

i'm not sure it would be that easy without Cell wounding. Cell was designed for this type of thing - thats why its a new philosophy in chip design. i don't think it will stop there either. i honestly believe that when more Cells link up they increase in power. add to this the possibility of Cell blade servers and the skys the limit.

woundingchaney

03-10-2007, 03:19 PM

i'm not sure it would be that easy without Cell wounding. Cell was designed for this type of thing - thats why its a new philosophy in chip design. i don't think it will stop there either. i honestly believe that when more Cells link up they increase in power. add to this the possibility of Cell blade servers and the skys the limit.

Right Cliff but that also directs completely towards a number of other servers on the market or in the future.

We have many examples of other structures "similar" to home, so I would say it can be done on other hardware. Do I think that Cell is "the best" option for Home; Well I personally have no idea but it does play to one of cell's strengths.

I would have to say that in abstract it could be done without Cell.

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 03:20 PM

'play in your world, live in ours' because 'this is living' 'beyond the box' 'in 4d' at 'HOME'

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 03:24 PM

Right Cliff but that also directs completely towards a number of other servers on the market or in the future.

We have many examples of other structures "similar" to home, so I would say it can be done on other hardware. Do I think that Cell is "the best" option for Home; Well I personally have no idea but it does play to one of cell's strengths.

I would have to say that in abstract it could be done without Cell.

it is being done already on the net, so i would have to agree. but Cell will enable this to grow continuously, because Cell was designed in this way, were as other chipsets were designed to maximise performance until the next chipset comes along.

Domination

03-10-2007, 03:26 PM

i'm not sure it would be that easy without Cell wounding. Cell was designed for this type of thing - thats why its a new philosophy in chip design. i don't think it will stop there either. i honestly believe that when more Cells link up they increase in power. add to this the possibility of Cell blade servers and the skys the limit.

Basically, you would have to invest more resources into something of this nature, and you would have to continueously manage it. It's very possible in other places, but it's very expensive and time consuming.

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 03:32 PM

Basically, you would have to invest more resources into something of this nature, and you would have to continueously manage it. It's very possible in other places, but it's very expensive and time consuming.

exactly! as good as PCs get they are always having to be upgraded and i can't see PCs competing until they fully embrace the new Cell processors. PC pimping will always go on and they will ultimately always be glitchy in some way because of the divese nature of programming and the needs of devs. what is needed is a new direction and Cell is a new direction

only with one standard machine will HOME be consistant for all users

woundingchaney

03-10-2007, 03:37 PM

exactly! as good as PCs get they are always having to be upgraded and i can't see PCs competing until they fully embrace the new Cell processors. PC pimping will always go on and they will ultimately always be glitchy in some way because of the divese nature of programming and the needs of devs. what is needed is a new direction and Cell is a new direction

That would be suggesting that Cell is a viable solution to pc processing and it simply doesnt seem to be. Pc processing will continue down the same lines it has and continue towards multicore processors. Coding for mc processors is still in its infancy.

Arguably cell is superior in some areas but it is inferior in others and the areas it lacks in is what the pc needs most. Stacking up the cell against modern processors is not going to give a solid win either way.

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 03:42 PM

That would be suggesting that Cell is a viable solution to pc processing and it simply doesnt seem to be. Pc processing will continue down the same lines it has and continue towards multicore processors. Coding for mc processors is still in its infancy.

Arguably cell is superior in some areas but it is inferior in others and the areas it lacks in is what the pc needs most. Stacking up the cell against modern processors is not going to give a solid win either way.

this whole PC philosophy has to change. how could HOME run smoothly if i have an older chipset and you had the bang up to date version? eventually people will get sick and tired of paying $1000 every year to keep up with new motherboards, sound chips, processors etc... Cell offers the ability to fully optimise the experience for everyone... after all Cell is a multi core processor

Domination

03-10-2007, 03:42 PM

My quote over a year ago:

This is where I believe this is going to change. For too long, online gaming has relied mainly on software, and because of that, a lot of these online servers operate about on the same scale. They can also be replicated a lot easier, and to a company like Microsoft, that isn't something you can just brush off. With Sony being an innovative hardware company, I wouldn't put it pass them to rely on their strongest side to push their next online server.

http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=52473

I don't say things because I want them to happen; I say them because the odds are very high, based on their background, of these things occuring.

Viano

03-10-2007, 03:46 PM

the conclusion is...

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 03:47 PM

My quote over a year ago:

This is where I believe this is going to change. For too long, online gaming has relied mainly on software, and because of that, a lot of these online servers operate about on the same scale. They can also be replicated a lot easier, and to a company like Microsoft, that isn't something you can just brush off. With Sony being an innovative hardware company, I wouldn't put it pass them to rely on their strongest side to push their next online server.

I don't say things because I want them to happen; I say them because the odds are very high, based on their background, of these things occuring.

i don't want to sound ignorant here Domination but could you elaborate on what you meant here?

woundingchaney

03-10-2007, 03:49 PM

this whole PC philosophy has to change. how could HOME run smoothly if i have an older chipset and you had the bang up to date version? eventually people will get sick and tired of paying $1000 every year to keep up with new motherboards, sound chips, processors etc... Cell offers the ability to fully optimise the experience for everyone... after all Cell is a multi core processor

Cell cannot exist in a void excluded from time. Even cell is going to have to be upgraded and integrated into the aspect of a pc environment. Technology is an ever evolving trend regardless of what name is on a processor or any kind of hardware.

One cannot mix the concept of "Home" on a console view with pc gaming or pc online structures. The people that pay 1000 usd annually are the people that want to stay on top of the hardware curve they choose to its not as if they "have" to. Even so cell wouldnt change this fact.

Domination

03-10-2007, 03:53 PM

i don't want to sound ignorant here Domination but could you elaborate on what you meant here?

Microsoft is a software company, a very wealthy one at that. Just about anything Sony does in pure software, Microsoft will match and possibly do better. So it would be pointless for Sony to try to compete with them head on in an area in which they rule the market with an iron fist. They have to turn to what they are more experience at when compared to Microsoft to push a competitive online server: hardware.

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 04:02 PM

Cell cannot exist in a void excluded from time. Even cell is going to have to be upgraded and integrated into the aspect of a pc environment. Technology is an ever evolving trend regardless of what name is on a processor or any kind of hardware.

One cannot mix the concept of "Home" on a console view with pc gaming or pc online structures. The people that pay 1000 usd annually are the people that want to stay on top of the hardware curve they choose to its not as if they "have" to. Even so cell wouldnt change this fact.

what i mean is that Cell is designed in such a way that there will never be any conflicts in design... ie a game that ran smoothly on one Cell PC will run smoother on the next without glitches. its the chip equivalent of evolution. PC chipsets are inconsistant.

woundingchaney

03-10-2007, 04:07 PM

what i mean is that Cell is designed in such a way that there will never be any conflicts in design... ie a game that ran smoothly on one Cell PC will run smoother on the next without glitches. its the chip equivalent of evolution. PC chipsets are inconsistant.

The problem is the pc is an open market and that is exactly why the Cell isnt going to be integrated because for something to run well on the Cell it must be developed for the Cell (well thats one of the reasons).

This concept of evolution is already found within the pc universe, it just so happens that this is a transitional period between processor designs from single core: clockspeed changes to multicore core: core and clockspeed changes.
This transition would be similar to a generational difference in consoles.

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 04:08 PM

Microsoft is a software company, a very wealthy one at that. Just about anything Sony does in pure software, Microsoft will match and possibly do better. So it would be pointless for Sony to try to compete with them head on in an area in which they rule the market with an iron fist. They have to turn to what they are more experience at when compared to Microsoft to push a competitive online server: hardware.

yes i see and you are completely right. the only problem i can see is getting companies to move over to Cell based servers... it will take a while but i believe it will happen. there was a demonstration recently by IBM i believe that made it possible to compress data and then send it to be decompressed in real time on another machine. that can mean only one thing eventually! the game resides on the server side, you access it with another Cell based system that fetches everything or some of what it needs from the server side. that means a game that starts out very simple can eventually be improved by a more powerful system elsewhere (christ its hard to explain) thats why its called CELL

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 04:10 PM

The problem is the pc is an open market and that is exactly why the Cell isnt going to be integrated because for something to run well on the Cell it must be developed for the Cell (well thats one of the reasons).

This concept of evolution is already found within the pc universe, it just so happens that this is a transitional period between processor designs from single: core clockspeed changes to multicore core: core and clockspeed changes.
This transition would be similar to a generational difference in consoles.

yes but once again its a compromise. its still like taking more than one processor and bolting on another and another and another, were as the multi core abilities of Cell are intrinsic to its design

imagine if a 7 core system could utilise one more core from online and so on, it will grow naturally without the need of constant upgrades. not entirely but maybe every ten years or so you will have to replace your system

woundingchaney

03-10-2007, 04:19 PM

yes but once again its a compromise. its still like taking more than one processor and bolting on another and another and another, were as the multi core abilities of Cell are intrinsic to its design

No not really.

Cell works off of a PPE and SPEs requiring coding for each part of cell so yes in a specific given situation cell has a great multitasking ability although in the pc environment the general multitasking is much better on a multicore pc as these are all apps that work off the same base coding. The idea now is to use cores efficiently the great advantage being the cores are the "same". If we radically changed the way pc coding was done to incorporate cell then yes it would be good although that isnt going to happen (imo).

The cell is a good processor for specific areas although this wouldnt work well in a pc environment where any given range of tasks could spread across a variety of things.

If I have more than one core then multicore aspects of todays multicore processors would be intrinsic to their design as well.

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 04:22 PM

The cell is a good processor for specific areas although this wouldnt work well in a pc environment where any given range of tasks could spread across a variety of things.

but that is exactly what Cell was designed for

woundingchaney

03-10-2007, 04:23 PM

but that is exactly what Cell was designed for

No not really.

Cell is primarily designed as a media processor (sound images video etc.). Hence forth its potential for graphical calculations.

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 04:26 PM

No not really.

Cell is primarily designed as a media processor (sound images video) etc. Hence forth its potential for graphical calculations.

your only thinking of the PS3 here wounding, the first use of Cell. the next iterations will be more powerful yet still remain consistent in philosophy.

the PCs multicores work by giving one man more strength to do more tasks were as the Cells works by employing more men to do many tasks

woundingchaney

03-10-2007, 04:34 PM

your only thinking of the PS3 here wounding, the first use of Cell. the next iterations will be more powerful yet still remain consistent in philosophy.

the PCs multicores work by giving one man more strength to do more tasks were as the Cells works by employing more men to do many tasks

Which is the same concept as multicore processors only that by todays standards this is accomplished much more easily with current multicore pcs. Pc multicores approach the same concept only they use many men where as the cell uses a man and x amount of helpers (being that the ppe and spe are not one in the same).

Taken from this we would have to consider there being different iterations of cell being targeted as a pc/general purpose processor and with there being little to no market for the Cell in that area its doubtful we see this. Not that they dont exist simply that they may never see the light of day.

jaxmkii

03-10-2007, 04:36 PM

jaxmkii

03-10-2007, 04:42 PM

Comment by Barry Minor — March 8, 2007 @ 11:01 am
To put this render job in perspective I just ran one frame of this scene through 3dsMax’s default ray-tracer an it took my Centrino Duo (dual core x86) machine one hour eight minutes to render what Cell and the iRT renders in less than one half of a second.
don't underestamate Cell...

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 04:54 PM

read this:

http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=59738

are we looking at an operating system that is automatically quarantined from the processors and that talks in some way via the internet to another similar devise?

just two KK quotes:

Quote:
“If processors of high performance and wide bandwidth like the Cell were linked together without sufficient security, a worldwide system crash could occur with one attack.”

Quote:
“The model image for the Cell-based network may be the Internet: servers around the world form one virtual 'computer,' and each PC accesses it. Application programs can no longer directly access the hardware; instead they will have to be written in high-level, object-oriented language. The Cell processor will completely change the concept of programming. I am sure that a technology revolution is about to occur, not only within Sony but throughout the digital consumer electronics industry.”

remember that Sony want the PS3 to be seen as a PC.

why call it cell? cells divide and multiply! single cell, multiple cell, life... LIVE? we are all made up of mutiple cells that accomplish far more than one cell alone can right!!!???? f**king right!!!!!

virtual life + time = 4D

a living, evolving, self perpetuating model that grows stronger with every cell included...

Domination

03-10-2007, 05:09 PM

You have to give that guy credit, when he's right, he's right.

cliffbo

03-10-2007, 05:11 PM

You have to give that guy credit, when he's right, he's right.

if you read through that thread (its short) you will see that some of us actually were pretty much on the money

jaxmkii

03-10-2007, 05:14 PM

^ yea *brushes nails on shirt*

Sephiroth_VII

03-10-2007, 05:19 PM

Cell cannot exist in a void excluded from time. Even cell is going to have to be upgraded and integrated into the aspect of a pc environment. Technology is an ever evolving trend regardless of what name is on a processor or any kind of hardware.

One cannot mix the concept of "Home" on a console view with pc gaming or pc online structures. The people that pay 1000 usd annually are the people that want to stay on top of the hardware curve they choose to its not as if they "have" to. Even so cell wouldnt change this fact.

No more than we have to buy a new console every 5 or 6 years. They just have to do it way more frequently to be able to play the new games.

rpgamer_2k5

03-10-2007, 09:49 PM

frosty

03-10-2007, 09:55 PM

XeCPU does not have an in-order CPU.

Kabbage

03-10-2007, 10:07 PM

yeah it does

"The cpu core is a dual issue in order execution micro-architecture..."

http://gametomorrow.com/blog/index.php/2005/10/27/xbox-360-cpu-details-described-at-mpr-fall-processor-forum/

woundingchaney

03-10-2007, 10:11 PM

Cell is great in 'general purpose (or fixed-integer) ops. Just the SPEs lack hardware branch predictors and is an in-order CPU like the XeCPU. However the Cell is a streaming processor so they bed used in parallel quite well. Those SPEs are kind of like the pipes on a GPU.

Btw are these misconceptions coming from - did Cpi suggest otherwise?

Its not a misconception its referring to the use of Cell in modern pcs and its performance in comparison with modern multi core processors in a pc environment.

-Im not sure if Xenon is in or out of order cpu. Im thinking Frosty has it right and Xenon is infact out-of-order.

Nope it is in-order execution.

xone_4

03-10-2007, 10:30 PM

i think the only thing that MS can do right now to contradict home is to use there money and rent a real apartment for every XBL user and call these project "HOUSE".

j/k LOL :)

Steemo

03-11-2007, 07:31 AM

After seeing HOME for the first time, I thought "MS better make XBL free..."

rpgamer_2k5

03-11-2007, 07:21 PM

Its not a misconception its referring to the use of Cell in modern pcs and its performance in comparison with modern multi core processors in a pc environment. What is a PC environment? What is general purpose? Your GUI, the Internet, much of the software on the computer falls within the floating-point. But to just throw everything in discrete terms would be misleading. In other words, general purpose ops are a primary reason why most upgrade their PCs.

The Cell is no ASIC processor, it can be be used for database management which is probably the heaviest in general-purpose arena and it doesn't require any Xeon co-processor as we see with the Itanium 2. In fact general purpose CPUs were used on the PSX, the asynchronous CPU - MIPS R3000 were general purpose CPUs. This was also the case back with the SNES. Heck even Linux supports these line of CPUs at least a decade ag.! So whats surprising about the Cell being a general purpose CPU? Gaming code used to be primarily general purpose and it shifted. General computing is no mainly floating-point intensive (outside or inside gaming). And seeing that the Cell has no problem emulating the MIPS III core (physics, AI, 'general' code) in the EE with ease, why would it struggle?

How about design level? The PPU is general-purpose. Thats not arguable. The PPU features a 64-bit register for fixed-point ops and another 64-bit register for floating point. In addition there is a 128 Vector-based Altivec unit. OTOH, the SPEs featured a 128 unified register. It supports both fixed and floating point ops hence general-purpose. The SPEs can run non-vectorizable code without any hitches. I have never seen evidence suggesting otherwise on this board or any other.

That doesn't mean that I expect Windows applications (is that general-purpose now?) to work on Cell is just not going to work. Similarly Windows applications won't just work on Linux natively. If an app is designed for x86 than its not going to run on a PPC platform without an emulator. We all know that. But that doesn't mean it isn't general-purpose. If one were to develop applications with the SPEs in mind, say a general purpose application like database management then it could be used by hotels, hospitals, etc then there would be no problem. And seeing such capability is present in YDL really should throw away the whole general purpose fallacy away.

What is generally expected is that the Cell is hard to program because those SPEs are very 'bare-bone' and inherently unforgiving. That was the case when developers were moving to OOOE (from IOE). You can say the same about the Itanium 2 (quite successful in its market) or the Transmeta Crusoe. The has been used in laptops and computers for general computing. That means checking email, taking photos, watching videos, etc. The Cell like Crusoe is as general purpose as ever.

If you think the definition of 'general purpose' shifted then do start defining what general purpose is. I am totally aware of discussions on message boards and thats why I'd rather peek at some books in the academia and ask those who are well-versed in this discipline. Those "Who's **** is bigger' discussions are irrelevant even before the F1 interview. If the Cell has software from the open source community and major software developers then we'll see some tough competition. That doesn't mean PCs will die. PCs sell over 120 million in a year. The PS3 cannot. However if the PS3 can establish a commercial software biosphere on Linux then expect a good number of PCs to switch to Linux. Heck with Linux old PCs can even be used rather than being thrown away. :(

PS3 is the start but I doubt Sony wants it to be the end. In the future set-top boxes, Blu-Ray players, VAIOs, etc may feature PS3 technology. I highly doubt they're looking to tout the PS3 as an all-in-one-solution and hurt their other lines. ;)

Cell GPP
www.cs.ucsb.edu/~cappello/CappelloAsap2006.ppt

Crusoe
http://www.transmetazone.com/products.cfm#webpads

woundingchaney

03-11-2007, 09:43 PM

What is a PC environment? What is general purpose? Your GUI, the Internet, much of the software on the computer falls within the floating-point. But to just throw everything in discrete terms would be misleading. In other words, general purpose ops are a primary reason why most upgrade their PCs.

The Cell is no ASIC processor, it can be be used for database management which is probably the heaviest in general-purpose arena and it doesn't require any Xeon co-processor as we see with the Itanium 2. In fact general purpose CPUs were used on the PSX, the asynchronous CPU - MIPS R3000 were general purpose CPUs. This was also the case back with the SNES. Heck even Linux supports these line of CPUs at least a decade ag.! So whats surprising about the Cell being a general purpose CPU? Gaming code used to be primarily general purpose and it shifted. General computing is no mainly floating-point intensive (outside or inside gaming). And seeing that the Cell has no problem emulating the MIPS III core (physics, AI, 'general' code) in the EE with ease, why would it struggle?

How about design level? The PPU is general-purpose. Thats not arguable. The PPU features a 64-bit register for fixed-point ops and another 64-bit register for floating point. In addition there is a 128 Vector-based Altivec unit. OTOH, the SPEs featured a 128 unified register. It supports both fixed and floating point ops hence general-purpose. The SPEs can run non-vectorizable code without any hitches. I have never seen evidence suggesting otherwise on this board or any other.

That doesn't mean that I expect Windows applications (is that general-purpose now?) to work on Cell is just not going to work. Similarly Windows applications won't just work on Linux natively. If an app is designed for x86 than its not going to run on a PPC platform without an emulator. We all know that. But that doesn't mean it isn't general-purpose. If one were to develop applications with the SPEs in mind, say a general purpose application like database management then it could be used by hotels, hospitals, etc then there would be no problem. And seeing such capability is present in YDL really should throw away the whole general purpose fallacy away.

What is generally expected is that the Cell is hard to program because those SPEs are very 'bare-bone' and inherently unforgiving. That was the case when developers were moving to OOOE (from IOE). You can say the same about the Itanium 2 (quite successful in its market) or the Transmeta Crusoe. The has been used in laptops and computers for general computing. That means checking email, taking photos, watching videos, etc. The Cell like Crusoe is as general purpose as ever.

If you think the definition of 'general purpose' shifted then do start defining what general purpose is. I am totally aware of discussions on message boards and thats why I'd rather peek at some books in the academia and ask those who are well-versed in this discipline. Those "Who's **** is bigger' discussions are irrelevant even before the F1 interview. If the Cell has software from the open source community and major software developers then we'll see some tough competition. That doesn't mean PCs will die. PCs sell over 120 million in a year. The PS3 cannot. However if the PS3 can establish a commercial software biosphere on Linux then expect a good number of PCs to switch to Linux. Heck with Linux old PCs can even be used rather than being thrown away. :(

PS3 is the start but I doubt Sony wants it to be the end. In the future set-top boxes, Blu-Ray players, VAIOs, etc may feature PS3 technology. I highly doubt they're looking to tout the PS3 as an all-in-one-solution and hurt their other lines. ;)

Cell GPP
www.cs.ucsb.edu/~cappello/CappelloAsap2006.ppt

Crusoe
http://www.transmetazone.com/products.cfm#webpads

A pc environment would be windows based apps as windows runs on nearly every pc available (or at least in the consumer sense of the word) or typical programs ran by everyday users.

I seriously doubt MS is going to rewrite massive amounts of code to run well on the cell. And given this I would still say that the common multi core AMD or Intel is more geared to typical pc use (being that the processor architecture is much more akin to previous programming).

The comments werent suggesting that Cell is bad or incapable of running general purpose code or that even cell simply wouldnt/couldnt be used in such circumstances (I am also aware of the new "general purpose" since E3 05). But that putting a cell in a pc for consumer use is simply not something I would suggest at this time. It is important to note that until the infamous M. Nelson article I had never paid much attention to the term or was even familiar with it.

Whats more if Linux does create a market for itself in the future it is still a stretch to believe this will be realized using cell or a latter concept of the cell. The main problem here is (and you touched on it) cell thrives on specific programing for the architecture given the base of operation for cell (PS3, some Linux, and possibly more and more common in future media driven tech etc) I doubt it ever reaches a consumer level in a pc.
----One could make the argument that the cell "architecture" will be similar to what we see in future consumer based processors.

I wasnt aware I ever used the term "general purpose" in this thread and if I did it was misplaced.

Applefiend

03-12-2007, 12:55 AM

Of course, for my Mac homies... I have to do this... :)

http://www.bhprojects.com/Media/home.jpg

curryking1

03-12-2007, 12:57 AM

Well that's a kick in the face for sure.

Jay Gee

03-12-2007, 02:44 AM

I think the whole Xbox is a contradiction, a bastard son of PC, self-proclaimed hi-def console without hi-def disc...
Holy crap, MEGA burn.:clapping:

curryking1

03-12-2007, 03:15 AM

^Just a reminder to people, we're not hate breeders here... I hope you're just saying these things in good fun, then I don't mind.

cliffbo

03-12-2007, 03:18 AM

^Just a reminder to people, we're not hate breeders here... I hope you're just saying these things in good fun, then I don't mind.

agreed, there is only one thing uglier that fud and thats gloating...

Jay Gee

03-12-2007, 03:35 AM

Sorry bout that. Just never heard it pointed out so vigorously. LOL But yeah, EMBRACE THE LOVE, everybody. And that same Love wears an Evil Knievel outfit and jetpack.:D

mario25

03-12-2007, 03:49 AM

After seeing HOME for the first time, I thought "MS better make XBL free..."

Instead, MS will charge for live on PC....where online gaming has always been free..............

rpgamer_2k5

03-12-2007, 05:27 AM

A pc environment would be windows based apps as windows runs on nearly every pc available (or at least in the consumer sense of the word) or typical programs ran by everyday users. Then that's a platform issue versus limitations in general computing. If the PS3 can push Linux then it could form a small number of computers in a mainly Linux world.

I seriously doubt MS is going to rewrite massive amounts of code to run well on the cell. And given this I would still say that the common multi core AMD or Intel is more geared to typical pc use (being that the processor architecture is much more akin to previous programming). Are you sure? Microsoft even released Windows on PPC as NT3.51. There is Windows NT5 and its derivatives on the Itanium architecture and thats radically different versus the x86 counterpart. In fact you can place the Itanium closer to the Cell. Therefore if MS neede

The comments werent suggesting that Cell is bad or incapable of running general purpose code or that even cell simply wouldnt/couldnt be used in such circumstances (I am also aware of the new "general purpose" since E3 05). But that putting a cell in a pc for consumer use is simply not something I would suggest at this time. It is important to note that until the infamous M. Nelson article I had never paid much attention to the term or was even familiar with it. I understand. The PS3 can never shift the PC market full of a billion computers. No one is going to set aside their rig and use the PS3 instead. Its possible but throughout the world especially the business world where using PS3s instead of Dell computers wouldn't be feasible. For that reason MS wouldn't port Windows. They would just wait for the proposal to fall.

Btw don't worry, its all a peaceful discussion. You're looking at the market now and understand that the PC market doesn't change all of the sudden.

Whats more if Linux does create a market for itself in the future it is still a stretch to believe this will be realized using cell or a latter concept of the cell. The main problem here is (and you touched on it) cell thrives on specific programing for the architecture given the base of operation for cell (PS3, some Linux, and possibly more and more common in future media driven tech etc) I doubt it ever reaches a consumer level in a pc.
----One could make the argument that the cell "architecture" will be similar to what we see in future consumer based processors. That would be the case if Sony wants Linux on PS3 to be a multimedia driven atmosphere but seeing that much of general computing does fall under the realm (even central to Vista) and its not that bad if developers focused on that area. Also this is an area developers need to kill themselves over either since plenty of multimedia application are available on Linux PPC. They have no problem running optimally even without SPE support. The database applications and non-multimedia apps are available on Linux and hundreds have been ported over to the Cell in just a few months! Now if you believe that Linux can do anything a Windows counterpart can do then the Cell is no different. The disadvantage Linux has is games (will change /w PS3) and large software developers.

It is possible that established developers may try out the Linux platform where you'll see iTunes, Adobe Photoshop for Linux and definitely the PS3 will benefit. I am not saying it is certain. I am saying it is possible. If the Linux platform can prove to be a better platform than Windows through marketing then its possible. However Sony, IBM or Toshiba have very weak on advertisement and Microsoft really has a good percentage of the user under its grasp because of their propaganda machine.

As for Cell incorporated into desktops, etc? If that happens, the reason we'll see that will be due to the PS3. STI doesn't want to lose their lucrative businesses to the PS3. That would be ridiculous. However the Cell architecture becoming mainstream is definitely possible. It will be difficult though since x86 CPUs are selling hundreds of million per annum with a billion at homes. That will definitely be gradual but before that happens the PS3 will have to develop a software biosphere. IBM and Sony are trying to establish the atmosphere so they may end up penetrating the market.

PS: Cliffbo was optimistic but his prediction is definitely not impossible. By any chance if he happens we ought to +rep him. ;)

Garfunkel

03-12-2007, 01:49 PM

PS3 will not push Linux, as much as I'd love to say it would. It just won't. I do think there is a possibility ms will port windows to Cell but i can see it being a few years yet. There has been an explosion in Linux popularity over the last year, school districts in America are switching, the DET of Aus may be switching, numerous Indian states, China, France etc etc. I agree with rpggamer on this.

Viano

03-12-2007, 02:11 PM

*sigh* I just wanna go Home...

IEatFriedPikmin

03-12-2007, 02:19 PM

i think you guys are just freaking out. he said it looked cool and was more of a "wait and see approach."

It is a different way of using an achievement system, and i agree 100% with what this guy says. It's not necessarily a bad thing. he never said that.

btw, yes i just did read this.

Garfunkel

03-12-2007, 02:50 PM

i barely see the resemblance to achievements, their not even the same type of thing.

IEatFriedPikmin

03-12-2007, 08:24 PM

don't you earn stuff by doing certain things in the game... aka

jaxmkii

03-12-2007, 08:43 PM

^ but games have always done that so MS cant claim that eather.

cliffbo

03-12-2007, 08:45 PM

don't you earn stuff by doing certain things in the game... aka

i got a badge as a reward for swimming... Sony stole my trunks

jaxmkii

03-12-2007, 09:51 PM

peter moore comments on Home...
http://petersrolleyes.ytmnd.com/
http://karatesoft.ytmnd.com/

woundingchaney

03-12-2007, 10:16 PM

Then that's a platform issue versus limitations in general computing. If the PS3 can push Linux then it could form a small number of computers in a mainly Linux world.
The discussion was based around the cell in use in a typical pc environment which would be for ma and pa worldwide. I really never see the ps3 pushing linux or the cell pushing linux. I perhaps see linux growing on pc using existing architecture (not saying that the use of linux on ps3 is bad or inferior or even remotely a bad idea).

Are you sure? Microsoft even released Windows on PPC as NT3.51. There is Windows NT5 and its derivatives on the Itanium architecture and thats radically different versus the x86 counterpart. In fact you can place the Itanium closer to the Cell. Therefore if MS neede
And it really didnt achieve much of a base. Although I am not completely sure
windows wont make a version more suited to cell architecture the concept of rewriting/writing a tremendous amount of code for a processor that isnt available to the public and has very limited penetration in corporate markets isnt all that likely. Although I cannot absolutely mark it out.

I understand. The PS3 can never shift the PC market full of a billion computers. No one is going to set aside their rig and use the PS3 instead. Its possible but throughout the world especially the business world where using PS3s instead of Dell computers wouldn't be feasible. For that reason MS wouldn't port Windows. They would just wait for the proposal to fall.

Btw don't worry, its all a peaceful discussion. You're looking at the market now and understand that the PC market doesn't change all of the sudden.

That would be the case if Sony wants Linux on PS3 to be a multimedia driven atmosphere but seeing that much of general computing does fall under the realm (even central to Vista) and its not that bad if developers focused on that area. Also this is an area developers need to kill themselves over either since plenty of multimedia application are available on Linux PPC. They have no problem running optimally even without SPE support. The database applications and non-multimedia apps are available on Linux and hundreds have been ported over to the Cell in just a few months! Now if you believe that Linux can do anything a Windows counterpart can do then the Cell is no different. The disadvantage Linux has is games (will change /w PS3) and large software developers.

It is possible that established developers may try out the Linux platform where you'll see iTunes, Adobe Photoshop for Linux and definitely the PS3 will benefit. I am not saying it is certain. I am saying it is possible. If the Linux platform can prove to be a better platform than Windows through marketing then its possible. However Sony, IBM or Toshiba have very weak on advertisement and Microsoft really has a good percentage of the user under its grasp because of their propaganda machine.

As for Cell incorporated into desktops, etc? If that happens, the reason we'll see that will be due to the PS3. STI doesn't want to lose their lucrative businesses to the PS3. That would be ridiculous. However the Cell architecture becoming mainstream is definitely possible. It will be difficult though since x86 CPUs are selling hundreds of million per annum with a billion at homes. That will definitely be gradual but before that happens the PS3 will have to develop a software biosphere. IBM and Sony are trying to establish the atmosphere so they may end up penetrating the market.

Its probably best to split the discussion between Cell in pcs and the penetration of Linux. At this point I dont see cell being hand in hand with Linux or the other way around although thats just opinion and honestly I havent been following the issue closely. Cells best chance for home pc was through Mac/Apple (IMO) and the concept was dropped for many of the reasons we have discussed.

There is still a vital area of importance here. For cell to penetrate the pc market or the consumer market a large portion of this would depend on its benefit to the average consumer as a more capable processor to the competition.
Say in a vaccuum the cell has been coded for, there isnt an issue in pc hardware or software it must still be superior or at least comparable to the performance of its competitors (dual/quad core AMD Intels at least in the here and now) and have to be priced reasonably as well. We are all aware of ray tracing, physics, video streaming, etc demos done on the cell in specific situations but would the processor ideally be superior to the competition in your average off the shelf or custom built home pc. Even in a best case scenario there simply isnt enough information to say one way or the other, infact testing the scenario cant even be remotely accomplished until we massive amounts of not only applications but entire OSs developed around the architecture. Regardless pushing cell into the market at a competitive price would be a monumental task alone; its not as if the processor could just be dropped in a mobo throw in some ram and off we go.

PS: Cliffbo was optimistic but his prediction is definitely not impossible. By any chance if he happens we ought to +rep him. ;)
I agree that nothing is impossible and trust me if it does become a reality Ill fly to England and buy Cliff a pizza :)

--Edit: I was never under the impression that the discussion was anything but friendly.:)