Insomniac on why PS3 will win

[Khaos]

I mentioned this on another forum, but the SIXAXIS can have the same control as the Wii with what it has now. Nintendo used the sensor bar only to avoid calibration. All you need to do is have the user point the SIXAXIS at a few points on the screen, and then tell the PS3 that it's "calibrated" and then a simple integration of periodic samples of the SA's accelerometers can always yield a position in 3D space. It's not as clean as a sensor bar because it requires calibration for each controller when you turn it on, but it doesn't require you to have an ugly sensor bar in your living room. As pretty as the Wii is they sure went retro with the sensor bar.

Not necessarily true. Not using the sensor bar would be like trying to walk around and avoid obstacles when you get a glimpse and then are blindfolded, versus being able to see the whole time.

Would you want to calibrate your controller every time you go to plan a game anyway? And shaking it too fast etc could easily decalibrate it; no motion sensors are 100% accurate. That is why teh sensor bar is used to greatly increase accuracy.

[VonGak]

^It is also the reason why rumble would be a bad idea.

Something most people tend to overlook when complaining.

[gozirah]

I mentioned this on another forum, but the SIXAXIS can have the same control as the Wii with what it has now. Nintendo used the sensor bar only to avoid calibration. All you need to do is have the user point the SIXAXIS at a few points on the screen, and then tell the PS3 that it's "calibrated" and then a simple integration of periodic samples of the SA's accelerometers can always yield a position in 3D space. It's not as clean as a sensor bar because it requires calibration for each controller when you turn it on, but it doesn't require you to have an ugly sensor bar in your living room. As pretty as the Wii is they sure went retro with the sensor bar.

I doubt this would work. Accelerometers cannot give you good absolute position information. The signal drifts. If you tried to perform surgery with the SIXAXIS you could wind up suturing something in the next room.

[darkwing]

You don't need absolute position information. This is the reason I mentioned the word "integration."

And they're accurate enough for this kind of thing. Yes it would suck to calibrate it, but you could. That's all I'm saying.

[gozirah]

You don't need absolute position information. This is the reason I mentioned the word "integration."

And they're accurate enough for this kind of thing. Yes it would suck to calibrate it, but you could. That's all I'm saying.

They are accurate in acceleration sensing, not position sensing. Have you ever tried integrating acceleration data? It will get you something, sure. But filter it all you like, you are still going to get drift. Calibration is not going to help you if the error grows by the second. It's like closing your eyes and trying to walk to the corner store.

Some applications may not matter. Shoving and twisting actions, no problem. But I would rather have absolute position information from a sensor bar in any kind of point and shoot situation. Yeah it's seems kind of inelegant to use the sensor bar, but you cannot get around the fact that position sensors gives you information accelerometers can't.

IMO, rather than emulating the Wiimote, the best use of the SIXAXIS would be to take advantage of the analog sticks that have potentiometers in them (real position sensing) for fine control-- in combination with the tilt sensing for gross movement control.

[EvilTaru]

Lets be honest here, how much support will Sony be putting behind EyeToy3 as far as games go? I mean, not all the big games will use it. The Wiimote/Chucks are being used for all games (with the possibility of SSB:B using just the GCN or Classic), and with various degrees of extreme usage.

Sure, the possibility is out there that the EyeToy3 could run circles around the Wii's control inputs, but almost 99% of the Wii games are based solely on or around the motion-sensing technology. Will EyeToy3 be supported like that?

Why is it even a good thing that the waggle is being shoehorned into every single god damn wii game?

The point is to use it when it's appropriate and it has already become the case where reviewers are discussing whether the wiimote is NOT getting in the way of gameplay when reviewing various games.

EyeToy3 does NOT have to be a default method of control for the PS3, it's a peripheral that will have its uses for some software and not others, they will use it whenever it's appropriate, and Sony in the past has pushed EyeToy quite a bit, many EyeToys were sold, what they need is compelling software to encourage adoption of the device. Something like Eye of Judgement seems to be a fantastic implementation of EyeToy, the original EyeToy was great in EyeToy Play. The same goes for motion sensing of the PS3 controller, use it only when it makes sense in terms of gameplay instead of trying to shoehorn the thing in every instance which is the WRONG approach.

It's not necessary to copy what the waggle wand does, games have yet to have 1:1 motion mapped and shooters aren't benefitting from the slow turning due to the need to point outside of an invisible box, if the waggle wand had both the pointer and a second analog stick that governs turning it would have worked but for now the shooter mechanics remains broken and will likely remain broken because you will always have to point outside the invisible box for turning. Instead of obsessing over the novelty of a new control method, it's way better to obsess over having compelling software.

[gibmonster]

Why is it even a good thing that the waggle is being shoehorned into every single god damn wii game?

The point is to use it when it's appropriate and it has already become the case where reviewers are discussing whether the wiimote is NOT getting in the way of gameplay when reviewing various games.

EyeToy3 does NOT have to be a default method of control for the PS3, it's a peripheral that will have its uses for some software and not others, they will use it whenever it's appropriate, and Sony in the past has pushed EyeToy quite a bit, many EyeToys were sold, what they need is compelling software to encourage adoption of the device. Something like Eye of Judgement seems to be a fantastic implementation of EyeToy, the original EyeToy was great in EyeToy Play. The same goes for motion sensing of the PS3 controller, use it only when it makes sense in terms of gameplay instead of trying to shoehorn the thing in every instance which is the WRONG approach.

It's not necessary to copy what the waggle wand does, games have yet to have 1:1 motion mapped and shooters aren't benefitting from the slow turning due to the need to point outside of an invisible box, if the waggle wand had both the pointer and a second analog stick that governs turning it would have worked but for now the shooter mechanics remains broken and will likely remain broken because you will always have to point outside the invisible box for turning. Instead of obsessing over the novelty of a new control method, it's way better to obsess over having compelling software.

I have to agree with this. Developers are focusing too much on the novelty of the wiimote instead of creating experiences where it will really add to the game. You just end up playing the exact same thing before you had the wiimote. Sure, you can call Eye3 and sixaxis gimmicks, but Sony never pretended they will be as significant as Nintendo made the wii to be. PS3 will never have all games use these functions, but I would rather have compelling software than a game where the control methods came first and everything else was crudely tacked on like an after thought. Wii can be awesome, but devs really need to change their approach.

[OmniCloud]

I have to agree with this. Developers are focusing too much on the novelty of the wiimote instead of creating experiences where it will really add to the game. You just end up playing the exact same thing before you had the wiimote. Sure, you can call Eye3 and sixaxis gimmicks, but Sony never pretended they will be as significant as Nintendo made the wii to be. PS3 will never have all games use these functions, but I would rather have compelling software than a game where the control methods came first and everything else was crudely tacked on like an after thought. Wii can be awesome, but devs really need to change their approach.I agree, haven't touched my Wii in months...(lol;)) However, most devs are doing the same thing with Sixaxis...I have 3 disc based PS3 games which I highly recommend btw, (MS, Res. VF5) yet the best way to show off your PS3 controller is a download game called flOw or maybe the ducky game. Though Insomniac's approach was small, (shake the controller to get enemies off) it was a great gameplay mechanic that added to Resistance. Devs need to take this approach to both PS3 and Wii, because I'm tired of the Cooking Mama and Tony Hawk excuses for next-gen gaming. But what do you expect, there will only be a handful of developer that take the charge with motion control, then the rest will follow-this is the case in any industry...

Like CPI said there aren't any lazy devs out there, but there are few who are able to inspire and innovate gameplay from there own imagination. Not an easy task, but it would be nice if more companies tried.

[Diresu]

I agree, haven't touched my Wii in months...(lol;)) However, most devs are doing the same thing with Sixaxis...I have 3 disc based PS3 games which I highly recommend btw, (MS, Res. VF5) yet the best way to show off your PS3 controller is a download game called flOw or maybe the ducky game. Though Insomniac's approach was small, (shake the controller to get enemies off) it was a great gameplay mechanic that added to Resistance. Devs need to take this approach to both PS3 and Wii, because I'm tired of the Cooking Mama and Tony Hawk excuses for next-gen gaming. But what do you expect, there will only be a handful of developer that take the charge with motion control, then the rest will follow-this is the case in any industry...

Like CPI said there aren't any lazy devs out there, but there are few who are able to inspire and innovate gameplay from there own imagination.

Main difference between rehashing the motion controls game in and game out on the wii and the ps3 is that its the main point of the wii, where its just a side feature of the ps3 that doesn't need to carry the game.

[gibmonster]

Main difference between rehashing the motion controls game in and game out on the wii and the ps3 is that its the main point of the wii, where its just a side feature of the ps3 that doesn't need to carry the game.

I love resistance. The sixaxis is used sparingly but effectively. First time I had to use it I jumped back in my chair because the chimeran came out of nowhere.

[Diresu]

I love resistance. The sixaxis is used sparingly but effectively. First time I had to use it I jumped back in my chair because the chimeran came out of nowhere.

See thats a decent use, but all i was saying is that for the ps3 its not a game selling point, its a nice added benefit...where on the wii its suppose to sell you the game.

[dnpmakkah]

I can't believe so many people are making a huge fuss over this list (I don't necessarily mean on this forum) but just over all. I've been on many site and I hear so many people complaining about his list.

People have been wanting Sony/developers to convey 'why' the PS3 is a good purchase to make and when someone finally does the answers are ripped apart.

[Black Dragon37]

Not for David Jaffe. Many people agreed with (most of) his views. ;)

[Z]

I can't believe so many people are making a huge fuss over this list (I don't necessarily mean on this forum) but just over all. I've been on many site and I hear so many people complaining about his list.

People have been wanting Sony/developers to convey 'why' the PS3 is a good purchase to make and when someone finally does the answers are ripped apart.

because it is something positive said about Sony, and that just ain't right...

heck, someone here even accused the writer of being a PR for Sony. :err: :loser:

[darkwing]

They are accurate in acceleration sensing, not position sensing. Have you ever tried integrating acceleration data? It will get you something, sure. But filter it all you like, you are still going to get drift. Calibration is not going to help you if the error grows by the second. It's like closing your eyes and trying to walk to the corner store.

Some applications may not matter. Shoving and twisting actions, no problem. But I would rather have absolute position information from a sensor bar in any kind of point and shoot situation. Yeah it's seems kind of inelegant to use the sensor bar, but you cannot get around the fact that position sensors gives you information accelerometers can't.

IMO, rather than emulating the Wiimote, the best use of the SIXAXIS would be to take advantage of the analog sticks that have potentiometers in them (real position sensing) for fine control-- in combination with the tilt sensing for gross movement control.

Yes, I have integrated accelerometer data thanks. So have many other engineers. Ever see those window mount performance meters for cars? They show 0-60 and 1/8 or 1/4 mile times. There's also the watches they use for running/skiing that show the same types of things.

Do I think they should do it? No. Can they? Sure. But as a software engineer who spent 8 years writing hard realtime software for medical systems (and using many an accelerometer) I like to think I somewhat know what I'm talking about. :P

[Segitz]

Thing is (I too am a studying engineer btw), these accelerometers are much better. Sony would never use scientific grade accelerometers for a mass product. Never EVER!

I cant exactly tell the data, what the accelerometers can do, but I am as sure as hell, that theres a tolerance of more than +-.05G. And this will be bad enough as to be usable for stuff like "mouse aiming" and stuff like that.

[Media]

That article was totally tits.

[Z]

and thus a new interweb phrase is born.

[darkwing]

Thing is (I too am a studying engineer btw), these accelerometers are much better. Sony would never use scientific grade accelerometers for a mass product. Never EVER!

I cant exactly tell the data, what the accelerometers can do, but I am as sure as hell, that theres a tolerance of more than +-.05G. And this will be bad enough as to be usable for stuff like "mouse aiming" and stuff like that.

I can't find any specs on the accelerometers used in the PS3, so if they're horrible then it won't work. However, there are plenty of mice that let you aim in the air and they work quite well. My last company had one we bought years ago and it wasn't that expensive. Worked very well, too. (Only 2D and not 3D, but it's the same principle.. you just have another one on the Z axis.)

[VonGak]

^ Your full name wouldn't happen to be Darkwing Duck, would it well? Because I'm a big fan.

[Media]

and thus a new interweb phrase is born.

I saw Sergitz use it in a thread, and I couldn't resist. It's hilarious!

[Pluto]

I saw Sergitz use it in a thread, and I couldn't resist. It's hilarious!

Using nouns as adjectives is the new thing..

Stop acting like a vagina, dood. :err:

[LaLiLuLeLo]

You guys are so cats.

Yeah that's great.

[VG Aficionado]

I want to create a trend too!

...

You guys rock my cock!

...

*expects to be hit with the banstick*

[VonGak]

*zips down* this thread is going to be interesting

[Z]

hey dud, make melon, don't breath flash. moon can't dance if you can't Clank.


that is how 'hip' interweb phrases look to me...

[Media]

Hahaha yeah.

I wasn't using it seriously, but Sergitz saying that in the other thread took me by...surprise. And then LaLiLuLeLo's response to him...hahaha.

[Black Dragon37]

Strictly not for the fanboys (http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forums/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=2984974).

[VonGak]

Strictly not for the fanboys (http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forums/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=2984974).

Funny because it seems to have been written by a big big big fanboy.

[Media]

Plus there are some things in it that can be explained through fact. Fanboy reasoning and logical reasoning are two different things, but since this guy seems like a fanboy himself, he obviously sees things a bit more black and white.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

the funny thing about logic and reason is you can use it to spin anything, talk your way in or out of anything. Which is why sometimes....a lot of times... talk is cheap.

[Media]

Actually it's pretty lucrative if you're a lawyer! :beer:

[Viper]

I mentioned this on another forum, but the SIXAXIS can have the same control as the Wii with what it has now. Nintendo used the sensor bar only to avoid calibration. All you need to do is have the user point the SIXAXIS at a few points on the screen, and then tell the PS3 that it's "calibrated" and then a simple integration of periodic samples of the SA's accelerometers can always yield a position in 3D space. It's not as clean as a sensor bar because it requires calibration for each controller when you turn it on, but it doesn't require you to have an ugly sensor bar in your living room. As pretty as the Wii is they sure went retro with the sensor bar.
Ever play Rayman on Wii? Play it and your assumption that 6aX can do what the Wii-mote does right now will fade. Try Madden on Wii as well.

For PS3 to emulate Wii like control completely, PS3 will require EyeToy capable of triangulating location plus either a second 6aX or the use of finger cuffs of some form will be required as most non-Wii gamers tend to forget the nunchuck attachment is also a motion sensitive device and many games make use of this dual motion sensing system for simultaneous action.

It can be done on PS3 but the inherent difference in technological approaches to motion sensing prevent it from being able to replicate it on a practical level. it requires so many extra peripherals that the average gamer may become disinterested which we all know what happens in a developers eye when gamers become such.

Sony would have to make it incredibly affordable and accessible as well as heavily support it with 1st part games and offer great tools for it or else it will find its home alongside pretty much every other peripheral in existence....an afterthought with limited appeal and use. It can be done but Sony has to play these cards much better than they have with the PS3 thus far.

[LiquidEagle]

So the moral of the story is SIXAXIS < Wii-mote, and SIXAXIS + Eye3 > Wii-mote. :-p

[Khaos]

Well we have yet to see what the eye3 can actually do. So I would have to say inconckusive at this point. ;-]

[LiquidEagle]

Even the EyeToy for PS2 in conjunction with the SIXAXIS could do more than the Wii-mote, I'd say...

[Applefiend]

I tell ya, that Wii. Wii is mass market. Wii is simple, Wii is for all ages, Wii bringing back simple uncomplicated fun.

Rigggghhhttt?

I just got the classic controller for my Wii. Playing some VC games on the Wavebird is impossible. DKC, Super Mario World all play bad,because the button layout on the Gamecube controller is wrong, you need this classic controller. I bought it, now I'm going through DKC like a hot knife through butter. I really like the Wii Store, I spend more on it than on the PS Store. Guilt free retro.

But... Get this. This is all the controllers I use to play PS3:

http://www.bhprojects.com/Media/cont1.jpg

This is what I use in total to play Wii.

http://www.bhprojects.com/Media/cont2.jpg

And it's all required, and all needs to be fed with rechargeable batteries. Hopping from VC to Wii to Gamecube.

Damn nintendo marketing is good. :)

[Z]

that is why Sony is 'The King of Cool'. sleek and smooth baby. :)

[Khaos]

Even the EyeToy for PS2 in conjunction with the SIXAXIS could do more than the Wii-mote, I'd say...

Extremely simple motion sensing? Man my mom used to get so pissed at me because I wouldn't let her walk by me while playing Eyetoy, because she would set it off. :shrug: haha.

[cliffbo]

Sixaxis and Wii-mote are two different philosophies based on a similar technology. there is little if any value in comparing them.