Insomniac on why PS3 will win

[Sypher]

Insomniac Chief Creative Officer Brian Hastings speaks out on the PS3

Mar 27, 2007 : 10 Reasons Why PS3 Will Win This Console Generation


Insomniac Games Chief Creative Officer Brian Hastings discusses why the PS3 is the console to beat

First of all, let me make it clear that Insomniac is a 100% independent development studio. Sony has neither endorsed nor authorized what I’m writing here.

When I started this blog post I was planning to write about Home and Little Big Planet from a developer’s perspective. But as I read some of the media and message board responses to Sony’s GDC presentation, I wanted to address an ongoing industry phenomenon. Specifically, the sheer volume of negative spin toward Sony from both the mainstream press and the internet community. Mere minutes after Sony announced a beautiful, ground breaking, free, community-enhancing online PS3 service, 100 internet posters were trying to argue that this was somehow a bad thing. Whether you love or hate Sony, if you’re trying to spin Home as a bad thing I can only conclude that you’re part of Microsoft’s $3.2 billion viral marketing campaign.

I’ll be the first to say that Sony has had a very rough road from last E3 up through this year’s GDC. Some of their wounds have been self-inflicted, but they’ve also had to face a conspicuously hostile media. Take the New York Times article “How the PS3 will kill your dog, steal your girlfriend, and infect you with Ebola.” And Time magazine’s piece “Global Warming: Is It The PS3?” And more recently, GameSpot’s “Ten Complaints We Thought Up While Everyone Else Was Watching Little Big Planet.”

For the last nine months it has been fashionable to bash the PS3. At first it was controversial, even titillating, to make sensational and dire predictions about the PS3’s future. You could watch it happen again and again – a rumor starts on a message board (“The PS3s all caught on fire at TGS!”, “Blu-Ray won’t have any Porn!”), then it gets picked up by a games industry website, and a few days later USA Today runs the story with the headline “Experts Say PS3 Doom3d!1!!” But the tide has changed so much now that it’s downright controversial to suggest that the PS3 may yet be a success. So, in the spirit of sensationalism and controversy, let me present to you 10 reasons why the PS3 will be the console market leader by 2010:

1. Home & Little Big Planet
One of my jobs at Insomniac is to try to come up with “the next big thing.” This is something everyone at Insomniac does, but as Chief Creative Officer it’s also part of my job description. For the last two years there have been two concepts that I have felt had the strongest potential to be the next big thing. At GDC, Sony came out of the blue and delivered fully-realized versions of both concepts.

The first concept is a realization of the ‘Metaverse’ from Neal Stephenson’s groundbreaking novel Snow Crash. For those who haven’t read it, it’s what inspired Second Life. Over the last couple years, many of us at Insomniac have come up with lots of different ideas on how to make such a system for consoles. So when Home came out, already nearly complete and looking beautiful, it was both amazing and humbling at the same time. In short, Home is exactly what the online console community needs. I’m not saying that because it’s on the PS3. I’m saying that because Home is a fully realized version of something I’ve been trying to figure out how to do for two years.

The other “next big thing” I had been thinking about is how to make a game that is primarily driven by player-generated content. So when Little Big Planet was announced I felt like Orville Wright tinkering on a bicycle-powered balsa wood plane as a learjet suddenly flew overhead. Not only does Little Big Planet have stunningly beautiful graphics, gorgeous animation, brilliant physics and intuitive controls, it’s also a cooperative four player online game! This alone makes it accessible to a much greater audience than player vs player games. And most important of all, it has an absolutely ingenuous system for creating and sharing your own levels. This is HUGE. This is something that’s never been done on consoles and now it’s being introduced not as a half-baked add-on to another game, but as an absolutely brilliant, fully realized, breathtaking experience. You can bet that dozens of developers will create their own Little Big Planet levels as soon as it comes out. Many future game designers will get their start by designing Little Big Planet levels. Gamers who previously had no way to get their foot in the door as a game designer will have developers calling them in the middle of the night if they make a top-rated LBP level. I say again, Little Big Planet is HUGE.

It’s humbling to know that other developers had not only thought of these two concepts, but brought them to fruition in such stunning fashion. Mostly, though, it’s very encouraging to see Sony taking more of a lead in online innovation. While some people were accusing them of merely copying the competition, Sony has been quietly working on two of the most innovative ideas of this generation. “Mii too?” Give me a break.

2. Free Online
Among all the talk about the price of Sony’s console, I almost never see anyone mention the significance of Sony’s free online service. Xbox Live Gold costs $70 to sign up for 1 year, or $20 for three months. You can renew your membership for $50 a year. So if the Xbox 360 stays around for five years, you’ll be paying 70 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 = $270 to access features that Sony gives you for free.

I agree, Xbox Live is overall offering a better online service right now. But $270 better? And Sony is steadily narrowing the gap in online features. With improvements to the messaging system and support for background downloading, Sony is rapidly catching up with many of the key advantages that Live has enjoyed. Add to that the fact that Sony is offering virtually lag-free dedicated servers at no cost, while on Xbox Live you are paying for a more laggy peer-to-peer service. Furthermore, one of the biggest advertised features of Xbox Live is matchmaking, yet the implementation of this feature has been inconsistent since it is left up to the developer. The matchmaking service on Resistance: FOM, meanwhile, has been one of its biggest successes, proving that even at this early stage the PS3’s online capabilities are very competitive. And free. As the PS3 community continues to grow with new features and player-generated content from Home and Little Big Planet, Sony’s online service is looking better and better. And, again, they’re not charging you $270 for it.

3. 50 GB games
If you ever hear someone say “Blu-Ray isn’t needed for this generation,” rest assured they don’t make games for a living. At Insomniac, we were filling up DVDs on the PS2, as were most of the developers in the industry. We compressed the level data, we compressed the mpeg movies, we compressed the audio, and it was still a struggle to get it to fit in 6 gigs. Now we’ve got 16 times as much system RAM, so the level data is 16 times bigger. And the average disc space of games only gets bigger over a console’s lifespan. As games get bigger, more advanced and more complex, they necessarily take up more space. If developers were filling up DVDs last generation, there are clearly going to be some sacrifices made to fit current generation games in the same amount of space.

Granted, some really great Xbox 360 games have squeezed onto a DVD9. Gears of War is a beautiful game and shows off the highest resolution textures of anything yet released, partly because of the Unreal Engine’s ability to stream textures. This means that you can have much higher resolution textures than you could normally fit in your 512 MB of RAM. It also means that you’re going to chew up more disc space for each level. With streamed textures, streamed geometry and streamed audio, even with compression, you can quickly approach 1 GB of data per level. That inherently limits you to a maximum of about 7 levels, and that’s without multiplayer levels or mpeg cutscenes.

Sometimes people ask us, “If Resistance takes 14 gigabytes, why doesn’t it look better than Gears?” Well, for one, Resistance didn’t support texture streaming, so we had to make choices about where we spent our high-res textures. Resistance also had 30 single-player chapters, six multiplayer maps, uncompressed audio streaming, and high-definition mpegs. That all added up to a lot of space on the disc. Starting with Ratchet and Clank Future: Tools of Destruction we are supporting texture streaming, which will make the worlds look even better, and will also consume even more space on disc.

There’s no question that you can always cut more levels, compress the audio more, compress the textures more, down-res the mpeg movies, and eventually get any game to fit on a DVD. But you paid for a high-def experience, right? You want the highest resolution, best audio, most cinematic experience a developer can offer, right? That’s why Blu-Ray is important for games, and why it will become more important each year of this hardware cycle.

4. Casino Royale
Casino Royale is the first high definition title to crack the top 10 on Amazon’s DVD charts, rising up to number seven shortly after being released. This is significant because it dispels the myth that high definition discs are merely a niche and will never take off with the mainstream.

A lot of people have been waiting on the fence to see whether Blu-Ray or HD-DVD would emerge as the winner of the format war. Well, at this point the war is as good as over. Blu-Ray has won a TKO. It always had superior technical specs and much wider studio support, but there was the question of whether HD-DVD’s earlier release and initially lower price would capture enough of the market to make it the winner. But Blu-Ray has already surpassed HD-DVD in overall discs sold, and is currently outselling HD-DVD discs at about a 3:1 rate. Many neutral observers in the A/V community have called the war in favor of Blu-Ray. If you want minute-to-minute updates, you can follow what’s left of the format war at various locations on the internet:
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/
http://www.hdgamedb.com/amazon/versus.aspx
These sites mainly compare Amazon sales data, but the Nielsen sales data shows the same thing: Blu-Ray discs are outselling HD-DVD by a steadily increasing margin.

Many of Disney, Fox and Sony’s biggest box office movies will release exclusively on Blu-Ray in the next three months, likely pushing the sales separation between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD to a margin where many retailers will begin phasing out HD-DVD. Retailers hate a format war even more than consumers, and I suspect they’ll take the initiative to end it as quickly as possible.

5. HDMI
A lot has been said about Sony’s choice to ship with composite cables. I won’t say I agree with that decision, but I think too little has been said of the fact that even the cheaper PS3 SKU supports HDMI 1.3. The PS3 was the first consumer device to support it, and this is a very important future-proofing step. When you go to buy higher-end TVs, the PS3 will support the highest possible audio and video input the TV and receiver can accept. If and when high-def movies start requiring an Image Constraint Token, the PS3 will still be able play them in high definition.

Right now, HDMI seems primarily to be a selling point to the hardcore audio and videophiles of the world. But HDTVs are getting cheaper and more popular all the time, and consumer sophistication and knowledge of high definition audio and video is growing. In a couple years, HDMI devices will be the standard. Graphics and audio in games will also continue to improve, and more and more consumers will want HDMI in order to get the best results on their home theater setups. As this happens, Microsoft has a difficult choice – do they stick with “last gen” video output, or do they release a premium version of the Xbox 360 that includes HDMI but effectively forces early adopters to re-buy the system to get the best results? Sony ultimately made their console more expensive by including HDMI, but over the next couple years it’s likely to play out as the right choice.

6. Standard HDD
When we were developing for PS2, I was jealous of Xbox’s standard hard drive. There are so many things this allowed you to consider as a developer – virtually unlimited save data, improved load times, custom music, downloadable content and user-created content just to name a few. But since hard drives, no matter what the size, never get cheaper than about $50, Microsoft lost money trying to compete with the PS2’s price. That may be the reason they left it out of the cheaper Xbox 360 SKU, thinking that Sony would again leave out the hard drive on the PS3. Instead, Sony made the hard drive standard for both SKUs. This added to the cost of the PS3, but it also let developers use the HDD in games.

The problem with including a hard drive in one version of the 360 and not in the other is that developers can’t use it for the games. Or, at least, they can’t use it for any required features. When you are guaranteed to have at least a 20 GB hard drive in the console, you can write your load caching routines around it, or use it for your application’s storage needs. To a developer, an optional hard drive is roughly equivalent to no hard drive at all.

Another advantage of the PS3 is that it will let you put in any third party hard drive you want. From a developer’s standpoint, this is good news because the market will gradually be able to support larger downloadable games over the course of the PS3’s life. As downloadable content gets larger and more sophisticated, PS3 owners can choose to buy larger hard drives at the best market price. The more this happens, the more developers will be encouraged to create better and better downloadable games.

7. The Wii Fad Will Fade
OK, this one’s going to be controversial, but I have to say it. I like Nintendo a lot. I think Nintendo has innovated far more than any other company in the industry. And I think the Wii is really, really fun. But… let me relate to you a story that may sound familiar:

Your friend Reggie invites you over for a Wii Party. It’s awesome. You and your friends partake in whatever beverages are legally appropriate for your age group. The next day everyone who went to the party rushes out and buys a Wii.

A week later Reggie hosts another Wii Party. This time only half the group comes. It’s still fun, but there isn’t quite as much shoving to get at the Wiimote.

The next week Reggie hosts another Wii Party. You tell him you have bird flu.

Obviously I’m exaggerating, but the Wii does have many characteristics of popular mainstream fads. It’s instantaneously accessible, it’s unlike anything you’ve tried before, and it’s great fun to share with friends. In short, it’s everything Nintendo said it would be and it has captured the world’s imagination. The only downside is that the world is easily distracted. Tickle Me Elmo captured the world’s attention at one point, as did Furbies. They were both instantly accessible, were unlike anything people had seen before, and were fun to share with friends. But a year later, after everyone had seen them and tried them out, their popularity waned.

The Wii is currently riding on a massive wave of mainstream attention and has been purchased by lots of people who don’t normally play games. But how many of those people who are hooked on Wii Sports will also buy Wii Need For Speed? Mainstream fads usually run their course within a year. As the honeymoon period fades, the Wii will be going up against more and more graphically impressive games on the PS3 and Xbox 360. More people will be buying HD televisions and looking for the most immersive and stunning experiences available. For these reasons, I think the Wii will be more successful than the GameCube or N64 but in the long run will still be outsold by the PS3.

8. PS3 Has a Major CPU Advantage
The GPUs on the Xbox 360 and PS3 are roughly equivalent, with the Xbox 360 arguably having a slight edge. The difference in CPU power, however, is far greater with the PS3 enjoying the advantage. The PS3’s eight parallel CPUs (one primary “PPU” and seven Cell processors) give it potentially far more computing power than the three parallel CPUs in the Xbox 360. Just about any tech programmer will tell you that the PS3’s CPUs are significantly more powerful. The problem is that it has been challenging thus far to take advantage of the Cell’s parallel architecture.

With the PS2, Sony got away with making a fairly developer-unfriendly system, and its success allowed their hardware designers to ignore developer’s complaints as they made the PS3. People high up at Sony have realized that approach simply won’t work anymore and are trying to fix the problem. Sony is actively improving their libraries, tools and developer support in order to make PS3 development easier. They are giving first party developed techniques and code to third-party developers so that multi-platform games should start looking better on PS3.

Games developed from the ground up on PS3 are the ones that will really show off the PS3’s CPU advantage. The complexity of the distributed processing architecture means that PS3 engines won’t fully blossom until a little later in the lifecycle than the PS2. This has put the PS3 at a disadvantage early in its lifecycle, but within two years you will see games that surpass what is possible on the Xbox 360.

9. PS2 still outselling 360
I know, it’s outselling the PS3 by an even larger margin. But the continued strong PS2 sales really are a good thing for Sony. Anyone buying a PS2 at this point is probably not going to buy a PS3 or Xbox 360 in the next year. And when they do choose to buy the current generation of hardware, the PS3 will be in a lot better position. The price will have come down, the game library will be broad, and the top PS3 titles will probably have the edge in both graphics and sound. Just as important, the people buying into the PS2 now will be getting into many of Sony’s exclusive franchises that they will then later want to play on the PS3.

10. Something For Everyone
One of Sony’s biggest advantages is that it has strong franchises in every genre. Whereas Microsoft’s successful titles are mostly M-rated, and Nintendo’s are mostly E-rated, Sony has a big list of hit titles across the spectrum. When a 30-something gamer (like me) goes to buy a game console, it’s a lot easier to justify the purchase when there are games he can play with his kids as well as more mature stuff.

To Microsoft’s credit, they are doing a good job of catching up. The acquisition of Rare and the development of Viva Pinata have helped to broaden their spectrum. But it takes time to build a franchise, and Sony has been building their suite of titles for over a decade. Consider the breadth, success and critical acclaim of some of their exclusive properties: The Getaway, God of War, Gran Turismo, Hot Shots Golf, Jak and Daxter, Killzone, Ratchet & Clank, Shadow of the Colossus, Singstar, Sly Cooper, SOCOM, and Twisted Metal. These are all million-plus sellers worldwide that are either already announced or likely to appear on PS3. Add to this Sony’s new line up of first-party titles, including Heavenly Sword, Lair, Motorstorm, Resistance: Fall of Man, Uncharted and White Knight Story, and they have an even deeper and stronger line-up than what they had on PS2.


A lot of industry watchers and even a handful of publishers have been quick to write Sony off this generation, and I think that’s near-sighted. Sony has made a lot of decisions with the PS3 that may have slowed them down in the short run, but should give them a big advantage in the long run. The high price, hardware complexity, and the uncertainty of the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD format war have contributed to the PS3’s slow start out of the gate. But as the price drops, developers master the hardware, and Blu-Ray becomes the new DVD standard, Sony’s early disadvantages turn to advantages. As downloadable games become more common, the 60 GB hard-drive will be a big advantage to developers and consumers. As games get bigger and more sophisticated, Blu-Ray storage will increasingly become a major advantage. And as more and more of Sony’s exclusive first-party titles get released, the PS3 will begin to outsell the competition on a monthly basis. Those publishers who have shifted resources away from PS3 development will find themselves behind the curve and losing money as the market center gradually shifts toward the PS3 over the next two years.

I’m sure many of you may have comments about my point of view. If you do, please email blog@insomniacgames.com and I’ll do my best to respond. Also, I’ll be visiting the various forums to see what people think, including our own at www.insomniacgames.com (click on the community tab). Hope to see you there.

http://www.insomniacgames.com/community/blarg_full.php?bid=30

[GTAce]

A little summary anyone? lol
Thx man!

[OG_Monkey]

I Am Not Bout To Read All That!

[Sypher]

It a good read. Really.

[MRU]

Summary. When your a Sony developer you better find 10 reasons why Sony will win :)

A better question for Insomniac is .... How come the maps in R:FOM have the UK locations all in the wrong place ? Your a UK developed team and you don't know where Manchester or Nottingham is located ? mmmmm...

So why should I take your word on 10 good reasons... :err:



PS3 rocks, but all three consoles will 'win' because gaming audience is getting bigger. Even if Sony do lose the massive lead they have had in the past, they will inevitably come out on top this generation due to that massive lead they have had last gen. A more intresting battle will be the next 'next' gen :)

[Sypher]

Summary. When your a Sony developer you better find 10 reasons why Sony will win :)

They are not a Sony developer. Its called good business relations.

[Rip3001]

Nice writeup.

Sometimes people ask us, “If Resistance takes 14 gigabytes, why doesn’t it look better than Gears?” Well, for one, Resistance didn’t support texture streaming

So...will Resistance 2 have streaming textures?:thumbr:

[curryking1]

Friends tend to say really nice things about each other, nice read anyhow since we already know what it is and who it's from and we don't need to argue bias anymore, please...

[MRU]

They are a Sony exclusive developer. Remeber these are the same guys who before the PS3 were launched claimed that "1 level of Resistance Fall of Man would fill an entire DVD.".

Then how come the Demo featuring one level, and the biggest part of any game 'the engine powering it' managed to make it on PS3 store in only 850mb ?

I love my PS3. I do not believe everything I read - especially from people who have a vested interest.

[Killing Moon]

Not that many points to argue, really. Hmn.

[Fazares]

hes right...undoubtly right...

[EvilTaru]

Insomniac Chief Creative Officer Brian Hastings speaks out on the PS3



http://www.insomniacgames.com/community/blarg_full.php?bid=30

LOLZ @ teh thread title from gaf. Should have quoted the don't ban me!!!11!!/sent to die comments as well.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/Indifferent2.gif

[curryking1]

They are a Sony exclusive developer. Remeber these are the same guys who before the PS3 were launched claimed that "1 level of Resistance Fall of Man would fill an entire DVD.".

Then how come the Demo featuring one level, and the biggest part of any game 'the engine powering it' managed to make it on PS3 store in only 850mb ?

I love my PS3. I do not believe everything I read - especially from people who have a vested interest.

Friends tend to say really nice things about each other, nice read anyhow since we already know what it is and who it's from and we don't need to argue bias anymore, please...

We all know what it is and what it isn't, friends always say nice things about each other. For the love of God, let us not go down the same path again! No one should ever believe advertising to the last word, anyhow, again, nice read anyways.

O ya, welcome to the forums!

[EvilTaru]

Nice writeup.



So...will Resistance 2 have streaming textures?:thumbr:

Al is aware and is making streaming their priority for their games.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/Indifferent2.gif

[cliffbo]

absolutely inspiring!!!!!! if anyone ever puts the PS3 down again and you are one of those people that like to take a swipe (hell i might do it myself) then post a link to this. +rep. the best thing i have read (fullstop)

[curryking1]

YES @ Casino Royale on the list!

Casino Royale is one of the best reasons to get a PS3!!! Definitely! Great film!

[Rip3001]

Remeber these are the same guys who before the PS3 were launched claimed that "1 level of Resistance Fall of Man would fill an entire DVD.".

Then how come the Demo featuring one level, and the biggest part of any game 'the engine powering it' managed to make it on PS3 store in only 850mb ?

They were probably refering to a full level rather then a "segment." Any one level of Resistance can have between 3-5 segements before leaving for a new level.

[Theo]

Wow. Well written and full of valid points and facts many have not been able to see or just ignored. Best read I have had in a while, considering gaming. I like the most how he points out that the very things that put (or did put) the ps3 in a bad light will be (are) the things that will make it a success in the end. Sony is not stupid, make no mistake about that fellas ;).

[-gin-]

2. Free Online
Among all the talk about the price of Sony’s console, I almost never see anyone mention the significance of Sony’s free online service. Xbox Live Gold costs $70 to sign up for 1 year, or $20 for three months. You can renew your membership for $50 a year. So if the Xbox 360 stays around for five years, you’ll be paying 70 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 = $270 to access features that Sony gives you for free.

now multiply that by two and thats how much it cost to have two gold membership accounts on xbox live, which is absolute bullshit.

[cliffbo]

A little summary anyone? lol
Thx man!

take the time to read it in full fella, you won't regret it

[Coded-Dude]

a great read, with solid points. I'd like to hear some naysayers try and debunk some of his points.

[Epix]

good read. Thanks.

[TEEDA]

yes no more to add..he 's got really good arguments.

[Rip3001]

a great read, with solid points. I'd like to hear some naysayers try and debunk some of his points.

No you wouldn't. If you look at the GAF forums, there's mostly the usual suspects driving their hate ever forward.

[Z]

How come the maps in R:FOM have the UK locations all in the wrong place ? Your a UK developed team and you don't know where Manchester or Nottingham is located ?
do you mean Insomniac is a UK developer?
Remeber these are the same guys who before the PS3 were launched claimed that "1 level of Resistance Fall of Man would fill an entire DVD.".
got a link to that?

[curryking1]

Insomniac is quite American IIRC, to those who are unaware. That's why they keep getting on the Top 40 Best Places to Work in the US list.

[PSXBatou]

Insomniac is quite American IIRC, to those who are unaware. That's why they keep getting on the Top 40 Best Places to Work in the US list.

Indeed

Founded in 1994, Insomniac Games is an independent game developer based in beautiful downtown Burbank, where the sun shines just about 365 days a year. Prior to starting Insomniac Games, CEO/President Ted Price spent a few years as controller of a start-up medical company, where he decided that life in games must be easier. (He was wrong…) Fortunately, he found two very talented programmers, Alex and Brian Hastings, and together they laid the foundation for the company’s first success, Disruptor.

http://www.insomniacgames.com/about.php

[Chrome]

BH sound's like me, its almost scary LOL.

And said person know's his stuff.

[curryking1]

I worded that pretty badly lol. It's not 'why' the are on the Top 40 list, but rather, the fact they are on the Top 40 list supports the 'notion' that Insomniac is an American developer.

Yes, I completely needed to clarify that.

[Diresu]

Simply Brilliant.

[VG Aficionado]

Excellent read :) It feels great to see a clever post that focuses on the positives for once while still treating all these subjects in a balanced way.

They are a Sony exclusive developer. Remeber these are the same guys who before the PS3 were launched claimed that "1 level of Resistance Fall of Man would fill an entire DVD.".

Then how come the Demo featuring one level, and the biggest part of any game 'the engine powering it' managed to make it on PS3 store in only 850mb ?Man, you're just wrong. The first thing he says is that they're independent developers. They never said such thing as "1 level of RFOM takes up an entire DVD" either. I actually remember them stating things like a single level (or segment) usually required around 300 MB of compressed data on the disc. Lair developers have stated that a single level requires 4 GB of data, but these are also much, much bigger than RFOM's.

By the way: the downloadable file containing the demo from the PSN store requires to be installed. I don't know about you, but when I install anything on my PC I know that the installers contain compressed data rather than raw data.

@Sypher: how about changing your user title?

[cliffbo]

Simply Brilliant.

every point nailed

[Diresu]

every point nailed

He really did cover all basis perfectly. He gonna get flak for the wii comment though. I'd hate to be the one reading his email

[Applefiend]

GameSpot’s “Ten Complaints We Thought Up While Everyone Else Was Watching Little Big Planet.”


I like this guy. :)

[cliffbo]

He really did cover all basis perfectly. He gonna get flak for the wii comment though. I'd hate to be the one reading his email

i sent him a really nice email :)

[curryking1]

^^Lol! Good catch Apple! GS deserves a kick in the balls for all the stupid things they've done in the past 6 months.

[cliffbo]

First of all, let me make it clear that Insomniac is a 100% independent development studio. Sony has neither endorsed nor authorized what I’m writing here.

and they will still say its PR

[Sephiroth_VII]

Okay, I looked at the link he posted for the BD-r / HD-DVDV comparison, and it looked slightly disturbing: http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-All.jpg
As you can see, they're very, very close in sales now, despite the release of Casino Royal.

[curryking1]

I think it's still PR.

[Diresu]

and they will still say its PR

Of course. Otherwise they can't complain about it.

[Diresu]

Okay, I looked at the link he posted for the BD-r / HD-DVDV comparison, and it looked slightly disturbing: http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-All.jpg
As you can see, they're very, very close in sales now, despite the release of Casino Royal.

Look at some of the other graphs under that 1. Also that one is bound to change in the coming month due to euro launch.

[cliffbo]

Okay, I looked at the link he posted for the BD-r / HD-DVDV comparison, and it looked slightly disturbing: http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-All.jpg
As you can see, they're very, very close in sales now, despite the release of Casino Royal.

that's good! look how Blu-ray has quickly caught up and overtaken HD-DVD

Salesrank of top 10 products:
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-recent30.jpg

Salesrank of top 25 products:
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank25-1-1-recent30.jpg

Salesrank of top 100 products
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank100-1-1-recent30.jpg

Total copies in stock at Amazon:
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/quantity-1-1-recent30.jpg

the last one is most telling ;)

[VonGak]

Summary. When your a Sony developer you better find 10 reasons why Sony will win :)

A better question for Insomniac is .... How come the maps in R:FOM have the UK locations all in the wrong place ? Your a UK developed team and you don't know where Manchester or Nottingham is located ? mmmmm...

So why should I take your word on 10 good reasons... :err:



Insomniac is an American based developer and just like movies locations needs to be changed to maximize the entertainment value.

They are a Sony exclusive developer. Remeber these are the same guys who before the PS3 were launched claimed that "1 level of Resistance Fall of Man would fill an entire DVD.".

Then how come the Demo featuring one level, and the biggest part of any game 'the engine powering it' managed to make it on PS3 store in only 850mb ?

I love my PS3. I do not believe everything I read - especially from people who have a vested interest.

That was Factor 5, not Insomniac, and they used to make games for Nintendo.

And it's never the engine but the sound and textures which takes up the most space.
It's the whole reason of having an OS.

[Applefiend]

If you ever hear someone say “Blu-Ray isn’t needed for this generation,” rest assured they don’t make games for a living. At Insomniac, we were filling up DVDs on the PS2, as were most of the developers in the industry. We compressed the level data, we compressed the mpeg movies, we compressed the audio, and it was still a struggle to get it to fit in 6 gigs. Now we’ve got 16 times as much system RAM, so the level data is 16 times bigger

I may get this as a tattoo. I just tend to go for ten times bigger. :)

[NeoPlayStation]

Great read!

[Xerxes]

Starting with Ratchet and Clank Future: Tools of Destruction we are supporting texture streaming, which will make the worlds look even better, and will also consume even more space on disc.

Damn! I can't believe that R&CF:ToD will support texture streaming! I can't wait!! I want R&C NOW!!!! It will probraly be more ingaging than Gears of War. If they stick with thoes sick weapons like they did in the past then we will see this game sell well over the million mark!!

[Applefiend]

The problem with including a hard drive in one version of the 360 and not in the other is that developers can’t use it for the games. Or, at least, they can’t use it for any required features. When you are guaranteed to have at least a 20 GB hard drive in the console, you can write your load caching routines around it, or use it for your application’s storage needs. To a developer, an optional hard drive is roughly equivalent to no hard drive at

I've been bleeding saying this for years...

Make a 30 level game, 1.5GB per level, 50GB in total, start of each level load 1.5GB onto the HDD, stream textures/meshes etc off the HDD much faster than off DVD/BD. Only on PS3.

[masteratt]

This guy made more sense in one writing than ALL the "journalist" put together for the past 15months.

I'm not saying this because I am a PS3 fan, I am saying this because he makes sense and let's be honest, the only bad thing you can say about the PS3 is it's expensive.

I have also been saying since we had solid information on PS3 that Sony can't/ won't lose.

It's like they were put on this earth to make great consoles. They know exactly what to do all the time.

[woundingchaney]

I think Insomniac put together a list of all the aspects of the PS3 that the competition simply doesnt have. A second party 360 dev. could make an equivalent list here and it would be full of valid points as well. They make some excellent points here, but alot of it makes sounds tacked on as well. I personally think the success or fall of one console or another is going to depend on factors other than Live, HDMI, BR, etc.


Insomniac is an independent developer but have been in bed with Sony for years and have been continuously loyal to Sony throughout the years. Im quite sure that they "lean" towards Sony. Thats not to say that they arent on the more skilled houses out there or anything of the like because looking at their track record one cannot even begin to question that.

All in all a pretty good read.

[masteratt]

I think Insomniac put together a list of all the aspects of the PS3 that the competition simply doesnt have.
Well, duh.
Isn't that what makes PS3, the PS3?

It's what you have that competition doesn't that matters.
If the only difference between a PS3 and X360 was that PS3 had a better design, was quieter and did a laser show everytime you turned it on, no-one would care.

But instead, it does those 10 things and more.

[cliffbo]

and absolutely accurate

[Sephiroth_VII]

that's good! look how Blu-ray has quickly caught up and overtaken HD-DVD

Salesrank of top 10 products:
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank-1-1-recent30.jpg

Salesrank of top 25 products:
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank25-1-1-recent30.jpg

Salesrank of top 100 products
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/salesrank100-1-1-recent30.jpg

Total copies in stock at Amazon:
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/quantity-1-1-recent30.jpg

the last one is most telling ;)
Okay, you convinced me ;)

I was just a little shocked when I looked at that graph I posted, I didn't look for others.

[Diresu]

Also

"'Casino Royale' Blu-ray Breaks 100,000 Unit Milestone"
The strong performance for 'Royale' is certainly a healthy sign for the nine month old Blu-ray format. Not only has Blu-ray hit the 100,000 unit mark faster than rival format HD DVD, it hits the milestone two months faster than standard-def DVD did back in 1998 (with 'Air Force One'), when DVD was eleven months old.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Sony/Disc_Sales/Casino_Royale_Blu-ray_Breaks_100,000_Unit_Milestone/544

[cliffbo]

Sometimes people ask us, “If Resistance takes 14 gigabytes, why doesn’t it look better than Gears?” Well, for one, Resistance didn’t support texture streaming, so we had to make choices about where we spent our high-res textures. Resistance also had 30 single-player chapters, six multiplayer maps, uncompressed audio streaming, and high-definition mpegs. That all added up to a lot of space on the disc. Starting with Ratchet and Clank Future: Tools of Destruction we are supporting texture streaming, which will make the worlds look even better, and will also consume even more space on disc.

RAC is going to be absolutely incredible!

oh and he also says 'starting with' is RAC nearly finished? and are they working on another title already?

[VG Aficionado]

It's ironic that HD-DVD supporters used to rely on salesrank to support their points.

[MRU]

Insomniac is an American based developer and just like movies locations needs to be changed to maximize the entertainment value.

That was Factor 5, not Insomniac, and they used to make games for Nintendo.

And it's never the engine but the sound and textures which takes up the most space.
It's the whole reason of having an OS.

Oh sorry you are absolutely correct I re-checked my Edge™ magazine article.

And in regards to the level size - it was not Insomniac themselves who claimed about games size, but a Sony rep in an interview with Edge back in Oct 2006.

I hold my hands up and admit I got it wrong. :) Either way R:FOM is a better game than Gears of War. I got bored with that very quickly, but I'm loving resistance.

[woundingchaney]

Well, duh.
Isn't that what makes PS3, the PS3?

It's what you have that competition doesn't that matters.
If the only difference between a PS3 and X360 was that PS3 had a better design, was quieter and did a laser show everytime you turned it on, no-one would care.

But instead, it does those 10 things and more.

What Im saying is that I seriously doubt that the PS3 will win the console war because of "x-y-z or these 10 things", which is the concept on which the article was written. Does the PS3 have these things... yes, does it make the PS3 in itself a better experience... yes, do many of these things have little to nothing to do with the success of the PS3... yes.

Does anyone really think that it matters to the public/general consumer if PS3 has hdmi, Casino Royal, or the Wii fad will fade. These are valid areas in which the competition doesnt have but I doubt in the end they have anything to do with the success of the PS3 or not.

[cliffbo]

Does anyone really think that it matters to the public/general consumer if PS3 has hdmi, Casino Royal, or the Wii fad will fade. These are valid areas in which the competition doesnt have but I doubt in the end they have anything to do with the success of the PS3 or not.

but wounding, did you not read the whole blog? its futureproofing. he said in two years

[Diresu]

What Im saying is that I seriously doubt that the PS3 will win the console war because of "x-y-z or these 10 things", which is the concept on which the article was written. Does the PS3 have these things... yes, does it make the PS3 in itself a better experience... yes, do many of these things have little to nothing to do with the success of the PS3... yes.

Does anyone really think that it matters to the public/general consumer if PS3 has hdmi, Casino Royal, or the Wii fad will fade. These are valid areas in which the competition doesnt have but I doubt in the end they have anything to do with the success of the PS3 or not.

..I think it does actually. It might not make a significant impact individually but combined I do believe these things will have an impact on the outcome of the console war.

[woundingchaney]

Yes guys I read the blog and Im aware of their stance and statements, I simply disagree. Console generation arent won or lost by specs, or hdds, or the "cell". They are won by the acceptance of the consumer, which in many cases boils down to price point, titles, brand recognition, and features (maybe not exactly in that order). Im not condemning Insomniac here or anyone that agrees or disagrees with them Im just offering a different opinion on their statements


In the end I expect Sony to be on top, although no where near by the margin of the PS2 generation and I dont think its going to be because of things like Casino Royal, hdmi, etc.

[AC!D]

Brilliant read and his points are all valid but evreything the PS3 has that x-box 360 doesn't is being added on after the fact at great expense e.g the new X-box premium including hdmi and 120 gig hard drive, Microsoft rep stating if Blu ray wins we will have it and now microsoft also having 1080p.
This proves his points about hdmi and the hard drive and im sure in the near future it will prove his point on blu ray. The proof of the pudding is usually in how the competition act and MS im sad to say are playing catch up on everything or at least most things he posted which is disconcerting for me as an x-box360 owner because i have to keep upgrading if i want the best for one of my 3 consoles.

[masteratt]

What Im saying is that I seriously doubt that the PS3 will win the console war because of "x-y-z or these 10 things", which is the concept on which the article was written. Does the PS3 have these things... yes, does it make the PS3 in itself a better experience... yes, do many of these things have little to nothing to do with the success of the PS3... yes.
I completely disagree with this.

That guy basically pointed out the strongest parts of the PS3 DNA (so to speak) and to say that this will have nothing/ little to do with PS3s success is ridiculous.

Maybe you are ultimately driving the debate on to the "it's all about the games" point which is fair enough and most of the things he mentioned does equal PS3 having better games and the remaining points make the PS3 a great entertainment system.

I honestly can't grasp how you can say HOME, LittleBigPlanet, Blu-Ray, Free online, best quality picture in HD etc does not equal PS3 success, maybe you can elaborate further?

[Matt]

I honestly can't grasp how you can say HOME, LittleBigPlanet, Blu-Ray, Free online, best quality picture in HD etc does not equal PS3 success, maybe you can elaborate further?

All of that will certainly help, but it's not going to completely seal the "victory" for the PS3. I agree with wounding to an extent, a lot of people are only going to be worried about the price and the games that are out. Personally, I think things like this will only apply to these mainstream gamers, which, of course, there are a lot more of these days.

But there are still a LOT of hardcore gamers out there, who will be taking the options listed into consideration more than an average person.

[cliffbo]

Yes guys I read the blog and Im aware of their stance and statements, I simply disagree. Console generation arent won or lost by specs, or hdds, or the "cell". They are won by the acceptance of the consumer, which in many cases boils down to price point, titles, brand recognition, and features (maybe not exactly in that order). Im not condemning Insomniac here or anyone that agrees or disagrees with them Im just offering a different opinion on their statements


In the end I expect Sony to be on top, although no where near by the margin of the PS2 generation and I dont think its going to be because of things like Casino Royal, hdmi, etc.

that guy said everything a lot of us have been saying for ages, but with insider knowledge. he's in one of the greatest companies ever on the PS brand and has helped deliver AAA, first rate titles. now who am i to believe: a dev who knows, or your views which, with respect, are skewed somewhat towards Microsoft.

[woundingchaney]

I completely disagree with this.

That guy basically pointed out the strongest parts of the PS3 DNA (so to speak) and to say that this will have nothing/ little to do with PS3s success is ridiculous.

Maybe you are ultimately driving the debate on to the "it's all about the games" point which is fair enough and most of the things he mentioned does equal PS3 having better games and the remaining points make the PS3 a great entertainment system.

I honestly can't grasp how you can say HOME, LittleBigPlanet, Blu-Ray, Free online, best quality picture in HD etc does not equal PS3 success, maybe you can elaborate further?

I didnt matter last gen though or in the past. It didnt matter what console supported 5.1, or had higher res. standard, or a standard hdd, or a superior online service, or optical sound, etc. Did these things enhance the experience from the console.... yes to a point but these things dont bring in the mass consumers.

What mattered was price point, console game support, brand recognition and quality, catering to a large market, media support, etc.

@Cliff- This is a message board we post opinions and they remain that way. This has nothing to do with MS or anything of the like. Its my opinion on what is going to win Sony the console war, which happens to be different than what this article states. You can believe whomever you choose or come up with your own rendition. My views in this scenario are no more "skewed" towards MS than yours. LOL Cliffbo I dont think you disrespect me or anything and this board and posters are a hundred times better off in disagreement than "shouting matches". :)

[masteratt]

Yes but how do you build that?

It doesn't happen by magic, there are so many varied consumers out there and most of them will in fact go to a shop and ask details for all consoles and it always helps to be the best out there.

You might argue Xbox was technically better than PS2 but did shit but that was because PS2 already had it's brand set in stone.

PS3 also has an advantage of turning heads in the A/V consumer market with it's cheap and superior Blu-Ray.
I don't know what it says on the PS3 retail boxes but just put a logo of HOME on there or mention the online is free, and there you have yourself more customers.

Not to mention HOME might hit a deal with MySpace or something and there you go, another widespread feature which will lead on to people finding out more about the PS3 which is potentially more sales.

Imagine the best LittleBigPlanet maps being posted on a BBC site for example or even featured in a technology based programme or in a programme for future developers.

Hell for all we know some universities might buy PS3s so they can give their students freedom to create content on LittleBigPlanet.
What does that equal? More PS3 attention/ potential sales.

So yeah I definitely agree with you to some extent but I think (and this is a big point coming up) the features Sony included are so accessible both to hardcore and mainstream that they will help PS3 greatly.

And that's why Sony is Sony.

[cliffbo]

I didnt matter last gen though or in the past. It didnt matter what console supported 5.1, or had higher res. standard, or a standard hdd, or a superior online service, or optical sound, etc. Did these things enhance the experience from the console.... yes to a point but these things dont bring in the mass consumers.

but this gen was launched on the basis of the very things you are dismissing. MS themselves heralded in the 'HD era' (as they called it) with 720p, but Sony trumped them with 1080p. which is more likely with them because they actually have a real steak in it with their Bravia TVs and Blu-ray. once 1080p TVs become more the norm, no-one will want anything less. once people see the quality of Blu-ray pictures, they will except nothing less. once they have seen true AAA titles on the PS3, they will only want the PS3.

Blu-ray/1080p/Bravia/HOME will be a driving force this gen because last gen it wasn't about resolution, it was only about games. the market has changed. if it didn't matter MS wouldn't have supported HD-DVD and had to bring out a new 360 with HDMI and a 120GB HD (which they think will compensate their fans for the lack of Blu-ray) but it won't because there will still be some out there with no hard drive at all.



What mattered was price point, console game support, brand recognition and quality, catering to a large market, media support, etc.

that was last gen, things have evolved since then and moved on thanks to MSs statements defining what this gen should be about.

[AC!D]

I think Wounding is correct Sony won't win on those points alone. First they need to combat Mocrosofts Viral marketing and get the consumer back on their side. They need a price drop as soon as possible 2 to win back consumers and finally devs need better tools and hopefully as was stated in the insomniac post they are getting this support because more happy devs mean more third party games for Sony.

[cliffbo]

I think Wounding is correct Sony won't win on those points alone. First they need to combat Mocrosofts Viral marketing and get the consumer back on their side. They need a price drop as soon as possible 2 to win back consumers and finally devs need better tools and hopefully as was stated in the insomniac post they are getting this support because more happy devs mean more third party games for Sony.

price cut, done to death. £425 in Britain. best selling console ever.

who are they trying to win back? forum users or the millions and millions of average people who buy the console without ever going on the net.

wounding - insomniac - wounding - insomniac... Insomniac i think

[masteratt]

Just have to say: Your attitude against 'woundingchaney' isn't helping anything here 'cliffbo'.

I really want to hear more of his opinion for the discussion at hand.

[cliffbo]

Just have to say: Your attitude against 'woundingchaney' isn't helping anything here 'cliffbo'.

I really want to hear more of his opinion for the discussion at hand.

by attitude i take it you mean 'disagree'. what are you advocating here discussing the same old stuff or discussing that refreshing blog? he didn't say it would happen over night, but what he said was accurate. or are we now supposed to agree with everyone in orange? i come to blows with wounding quite often, but about his opinion, that doesn't mean i dislike him personally

[masteratt]

now who am i to believe: a dev who knows, or your views which, with respect, are skewed somewhat towards Microsoft.

wounding - insomniac - wounding - insomniac... Insomniac i think
I meant those.
And no I didn't mean disagree, I am one of the 'hottest' debaters on this forum so I can take a little heat but the quoted bits felt to me like you have something against wounding and not against his discussion perse.

I maybe wrong of course but hey, back on topic :p

[woundingchaney]

Cliff if that is the case then why doesnt everyone have a 1080p tv or a PS3?? Why is the PS3 being outsold against the Wii and the 360 (in NA anyways). This gen is much like the ones before it, every gen starts off with headlines of "high definition" and "Cell processors" and "Online infrastructures" and "1080p" and it always comes down to the standard components of price, titles, recognition and media. Most of the consumers out there dont know what the Cell or BluRay is or understand resolutions they just want to play FF, Halo, GTA (of course the titles will change as the gen goes on) etc and they want to have the "cool" console at the right price.

These things cater to the hardcore consumer which in the end makes a very small portion of the userbase. At the end of the gen. most people are going to be watching dvds, they are going to have sdtvs, they are going to play games in stereo.

As masterratt said the PS3 is very well geared for the AV consumer and the more "hardcore" consumer, Im not denying that or trying to take that away. These things of course help sell consoles but they dont sell them in the mass market to the millions of general consumers. I think it is yet known how well the general consumer is going to accept the console and that statement carries on to the other 2 major competitors in the market as well.


Im not under the impression anyone is "throwing blows" at anyone here.

[Applefiend]

Yup, keep it non personal fellas.

Mr Wounding keeps the conversation flowing. Guys like me who were sold on PS3 after Region Free don't.

<*Gives PS3 a lick*>

[masteratt]

Sony isn't stupid enough to say "Hmmm, let's put 1080p support in PS3...I don't think anyone knows what that is but hey whatever, we'll take a chance".

They obviously done their research and know what's going on/ going to happen in a year or so.
They are playing their cards according to a growing market so they can take advantage of it when it's fully grown.

People said the same thing about Blu-Ray "oh it's too expensive, no-one cares" and now Casino Royale is selling at a faster rate than a popular DVD did back in [when-ever DVDs were first introduced].

You are right, this HD, Cell etc things will just die out later on but they are not dead now are they?
People do speak about these things and which consoles comes out on top? PS3.

In few years, when people forget all this and talk about games, who will come out on top? PS3.

[cliffbo]

Cliff if that is the case then why doesnt everyone have a 1080p tv or a PS3??

come on fella, you know that is very silly. how can that possibly be proof of your points?

i think you are really underestimating the average consumer. i live in a very small, out of the way town called Grimsby and everybody knows what HD is already. granted they don't know much about blu-ray yet (but that will change overnight with the launch) and they know nothing about HDMI, but again that will change over night. i always saw the European launch as a re-launch of the PS3 and you watch how it will accelerate from this point onward.

[Matt]

Sony isn't stupid enough to say "Hmmm, let's put 1080p support in PS3...I don't think anyone knows what that is but hey whatever, we'll take a chance".

They obviously done their research and know what's going on/ going to happen in a year or so.

What's alienated so many "normal" people is that they don't really know anything about things like HD.

Without asking frosty, I wouldn't have known a damn thing about HD. New technology like this is always the same. To start with, only the dedicated people bother to look into it, and regular people wait until the media or the shops or whatever explain it to them in a language that they can understand. I mean, you go up to someone in the street and ask them about 1080p, 1080i etc., most of them won't know what the hell you're talking about.

I'm not saying that the average person isn't clever enough to comprehend the whole concept of new technology, but you guys know what I'm getting at anyway (I hope).

[cliffbo]

I meant those.
And no I didn't mean disagree, I am one of the 'hottest' debaters on this forum so I can take a little heat but the quoted bits felt to me like you have something against wounding and not against his discussion perse.

I maybe wrong of course but hey, back on topic :p

they're just pithy remarks to save me typing LOL

[cliffbo]

What's alienated so many "normal" people is that they don't really know anything about things like HD.

Without asking frosty, I wouldn't have known a damn thing about HD. New technology like this is always the same. To start with, only the dedicated people bother to look into it, and regular people wait until the media or the shops or whatever explain it to them in a language that they can understand. I mean, you go up to someone in the street and ask them about 1080p, 1080i etc., most of them won't know what the hell you're talking about.

I'm not saying that the average person isn't clever enough to comprehend the whole concept of new technology, but you guys know what I'm getting at anyway (I hope).

but somebody had to take the plunge and move the market into a new era and it was Sony. last gen all they had to concentrate on was the console, but now they have to think about promoting a whole lot more than just the console itself. that's why the lead they will have come 2010 will not be as big as with PS2

[Matt]

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have done it. What I'm saying is that HD isn't going to be a top priority for the mainstream gamer, at least not yet.

HD won't take centre stage for a few years yet as far as I'm concerned. They're trying to rep it as much as possible in the shops now, but most people won't bother with it until the prices have dropped significantly.

[OmniCloud]

Cliff if that is the case then why doesnt everyone have a 1080p tv or a PS3?? Why is the PS3 being outsold against the Wii and the 360 (in NA anyways). This gen is much like the ones before it, every gen starts off with headlines of "high definition" and "Cell processors" and "Online infrastructures" and "1080p" and it always comes down to the standard components of price, titles, recognition and media. Most of the consumers out there dont know what the Cell or BluRay is or understand resolutions they just want to play FF, Halo, GTA (of course the titles will change as the gen goes on) etc and they want to have the "cool" console at the right price.

These things cater to the hardcore consumer which in the end makes a very small portion of the userbase. At the end of the gen. most people are going to be watching dvds, they are going to have sdtvs, they are going to play games in stereo.

As masterratt said the PS3 is very well geared for the AV consumer and the more "hardcore" consumer, Im not denying that or trying to take that away. These things of course help sell consoles but they dont sell them in the mass market to the millions of general consumers. I think it is yet known how well the general consumer is going to accept the console and that statement carries on to the other 2 major competitors in the market as well.


Im not under the impression anyone is "throwing blows" at anyone here.I agree Wouding, but I think the article is saying these things will completely change when more PS3 exclusive games come out. The gist that I got was that PS3 will improve more dramatically and appeal to both hardcore and mainstream audiences more than the other consoles. Price drops, better software, etc...

On that note, I agree, I think Sony put more thought into what the PS3 would ultimately be as a gaming machine. I'm not gonna give him two big thumbs up yet because well, the software, and price isn't here to justify what he's predicting yet.

But I do think Home and LBP are really big exclusives for PS3. I think Killzone will look awesome. I think Sony will have the best lineup in 07, and I honestly think that nothing is going to look better than GT5 or FF13 when they released. The system won't be $600/$500 forever, and I think once it's not, MS lack of variety will catch up to them...

I don't necessarily agree with him on Wii though...I think it'll always sell just because there's so many people in the world that don't play games everyday. This is something new for them, and it'll certainly last for a good 5 years if not longer. The hardcore audience may lose interest, but I think there's many consumer that will still pick it up-especially if Sony doesn't have enough mass-market titles...

[woundingchaney]

come on fella, you know that is very silly. how can that possibly be proof of your points?

i think you are really underestimating the average consumer. i live in a very small, out of the way town called Grimsby and everybody knows what HD is already. granted they don't know much about blu-ray yet (but that will change overnight with the launch) and they know nothing about HDMI, but again that will change over night. i always saw the European launch as a re-launch of the PS3 and you watch how it will accelerate from this point onward.

Because Cliff people cant afford a 1080p tv and they cant justify the purchase when they have a perfectly fine working tv right infront of them. Also I think the average consumer really has no idea what HD is they simply see a headline, I couldnt imagine going up to someone asking them what 1080p is and them giving me a definition. These are all aspects that also hamper the PS3. Many cant afford it, they cant justify spending such a large amount on a console, there isnt enough incentive in buying right now, or they simply dont know what features come with the console.

I cant speak about Grimsby but in TH IN USA people I work with and go to school with dont know just what HD is (or they dont see much of a difference) they havent seen HDMI and they have absolutely no idea what the PS3 can or cant do and most people dont have highspeed internet because it isnt offered or they cant afford it. But they do know they like to play Halo and FF, they have limited budgets, they buy what the "cool" console is what their friends play etc.


Off topic--

MS lack of variety will catch up to them...
I agree and I believe that will play a role in the latter part of the gen. MS while having made some strides in the area need to add more ponys to the horse show

[Matt]

Because Cliff people cant afford a 1080p tv and they cant justify the purchase when they have a perfectly fine working tv right infront of them. Also I think the average consumer really has no idea what HD is they simply see a headline, I couldnt imagine going up to someone asking them what 1080p is and them giving me a definition. These are all aspects that also hamper the PS3. Many cant afford it, they cant justify spending such a large amount on a console, there isnt enough incentive in buying right now, or they simply dont know what features come with the console.

The way I see it, they're trying to focus on the hardcore gamers first, because, and with no offence to the mainstreamers, but the hardcore gamers are the most important part of the market as far as I'm concerned. They're the ones who are more faithful to computer games, so they are more likely to buy more games for their chosen system in its early life.

Then once they've got themselves enough of the hardcore gamers, they can start focusing a little more on everybody else with things like price drops.

[VonGak]

Also

"'Casino Royale' Blu-ray Breaks 100,000 Unit Milestone"
The strong performance for 'Royale' is certainly a healthy sign for the nine month old Blu-ray format. Not only has Blu-ray hit the 100,000 unit mark faster than rival format HD DVD, it hits the milestone two months faster than standard-def DVD did back in 1998 (with 'Air Force One'), when DVD was eleven months old.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Sony/Disc_Sales/Casino_Royale_Blu-ray_Breaks_100,000_Unit_Milestone/544

'Air Force One', heh another record for Columbia pictures to put in their trophy room.

The first movie to reach 100k sales on DVD and the first movie to reach 100k sales on Blu-Ray.

[EvilTaru]

What's alienated so many "normal" people is that they don't really know anything about things like HD.

Without asking frosty, I wouldn't have known a damn thing about HD. New technology like this is always the same. To start with, only the dedicated people bother to look into it, and regular people wait until the media or the shops or whatever explain it to them in a language that they can understand. I mean, you go up to someone in the street and ask them about 1080p, 1080i etc., most of them won't know what the hell you're talking about.

I'm not saying that the average person isn't clever enough to comprehend the whole concept of new technology, but you guys know what I'm getting at anyway (I hope).

They don't have to know anything about HD, retailers are simply moving away from CRTs and LCDTVs are going to be everywhere, anything from 40" and up will likely all be 1080p-capable and those are becoming much, much more affordable. Your average guy doesn't have to know the difference between 480i and 1080p, he'll SEE the difference between 480i and 1080p because when he goes up to a sales staff and asks, "I'm finally going to upgrade the TV in my living room, I don't have 5k to spend on a plasma, what's the coolest TV you have?" The sales person is going to point straight at those 1080p sets costing as low as 2k. And if anyone tells me he can't tell the difference between 480i and 1080p in terms of image quality, then he needs to see an opthalmologist. People don't need to know what HD is, it's easy for them to realize that "whatever p TV we got from BBY last weekend was AWESOME, HD? WTF? Whatever, I only know we got something p TV from Sony and it's the latest thing and it's SO AWESOME. I'm going to get a PS3 now. STFU you."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/Indifferent2.gif

[cliffbo]

The way I see it, they're trying to focus on the hardcore gamers first, because, and with no offence to the mainstreamers, but the hardcore gamers are the most important part of the market as far as I'm concerned. They're the ones who will stick with computer games, so they are more likely to buy more games for their chosen system.

exactly! they are catering for the hardcore first, but in doing that many people who have never seen a PS3 on a HD TV are going round to their houses and being wowed by it... at this point they will start to save up.

[VonGak]

The way I see it, they're trying to focus on the hardcore gamers first, because, and with no offence to the mainstreamers, but the hardcore gamers are the most important part of the market as far as I'm concerned. They're the ones who are more faithful to computer games, so they are more likely to buy more games for their chosen system in its early life.

Then once they've got themselves enough of the hardcore gamers, they can start focusing a little more on everybody else with things like price drops.
And they got the mainstreamers covered with PS2.

[Matt]

They don't have to know anything about HD, retailers are simply moving away from CRTs and LCDTVs are going to be everywhere, anything from 40" and up will likely all be 1080p-capable and those are becoming much, much more affordable. Your average guy doesn't have to know the difference between 480i and 1080p, he'll SEE the difference between 480i and 1080p because when he goes up to a sales staff and asks, "I'm finally going to upgrade the TV in my living room, I don't have 5k to spend on a plasma, what's the coolest TV you have?" The sales person is going to point straight at those 1080p sets costing as low as 2k. And if anyone tells me he can't tell the difference between 480i and 1080p in terms of image quality, then he needs to see an opthalmologist.

I realise that, but I know that a lot of people would consider 2 grand a lot of cash to fork out on a television when they're got a perfectly fine SD television sitting in their house.

Of course you can see the difference with HD, it's not difficult to see that, I just think that a lot of people are very cautious with new technology.

[cliffbo]

They don't have to know anything about HD, retailers are simply moving away from CRTs and LCDTVs are going to be everywhere, anything from 40" and up will likely all be 1080p-capable and those are becoming much, much more affordable. Your average guy doesn't have to know the difference between 480i and 1080p, he'll SEE the difference between 480i and 1080p because when he goes up to a sales staff and asks, "I'm finally going to upgrade the TV in my living room, I don't have 5k to spend on a plasma, what's the coolest TV you have?" The sales person is going to point straight at those 1080p sets costing as low as 2k. And if anyone tells me he can't tell the difference between 480i and 1080p in terms of image quality, then he needs to see an opthalmologist.

LOL... ye there are many shops in Grimsby that only sell HD TVs, sure, some of them are only 720p but hell, that's good enough to start with

[cliffbo]

I realise that, but I know that a lot of people would consider 2 grand a lot of cash to fork out on a television when they're got a perfectly fine SD television sitting in their house.

Of course you can see the difference with HD, it's not difficult to see that, I just think that a lot of people are very cautious with new technology.

my friends Samsung was £1200, and another friend just bought a 1080i TV for £300... thats probably what i will go with because i'm not exactly rich

[Zap2]

So sick of hearing this Wii is a fade...we heard it with the DS, and the DS is still selling tons.

Most of the other points are saying things like hardware willl win it for them..and I've yet to see the hardware win a generation. Its just not what "most gamers" buy. Its nice to have, but games make the system.

[Matt]

LOL... ye there are many shops in Grimsby that only sell HD TVs, sure, some of them are only 720p but hell, that's good enough to start with

I think it must just be the way everything is down here. 60% of the people here are students with crippling debts, and the rest is split up between pensioners and people who claim benefits. So from what I see in my city, not that many people are really bothered about HDTVs.

So the way I'm putting it obviously won't apply to everywhere :-D

Personally, I can't wait to get enough money to get myself an HDTV, I'm already blown away by the quality of the games on the PS3.

[MRU]

So sick of hearing this Wii is a fade...we heard it with the DS, and the DS is still selling tons.

Most of the other points are saying things like hardware willl win it for them..and I've yet to see the hardware win a generation. Its just not what "most gamers" buy. Its nice to have, but games make the system.

I think both machines can co-exist quite happily my friend. ;)


Good to see you.

[Loudninja]

I posted some news, and yet you guyd are chilling in one topic!

[EvilTaru]

I realise that, but I know that a lot of people would consider 2 grand a lot of cash to fork out on a television when they're got a perfectly fine SD television sitting in their house.

Of course you can see the difference with HD, it's not difficult to see that, I just think that a lot of people are very cautious with new technology.

Seriously? 2k for a 40" 1080p set?

LCD projection and plasmas have been out for a LONG time and they've been going for 3k-10k, forever out of reach for that middle class dude walking into the store every weekend lamenting the fact that he still has to look at that piece of shit 32" CRT he had since the 80s, 2K for a 40" 1080p is a total bargain and might just be enough to make him jump the fence.

Frankly I don't think that 480i 32" SD set would remotely be "perfectly fine" after the guy seeing that nice 40" 1080p set going for only 2k, get the set and put that on that BBY 12 months payment plan, and promise the wife that new dishwasher for christmas with the bonus money, heck, get that dishwasher too and get a package deal, mucho margin in those appliance skus and the sales guy knows it. Heck the wife might even want to watch some stupid chick movie on Blu-Ray.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/Indifferent2.gif

[Coded-Dude]

I got my 37" Vizio(720p/1080i) for $950USD(after taxes)
I've already spent more than that on my PS3 -ololll
(10 BD Movies + 5 BD Games + PSN Content)

Unlike XBOX users, I don't have to spend all my money on Hardware accessories, I can blow it on content instead.

[Matt]

2K for anything would be considered expensive to a lot of people here, for the reason I listed in my last post.

A lot of people struggle to manage with just paying the bills down here, Canterbury is ridiculously expensive.....

Edit: Anyway, I've had my little moan, so let's not start going on about what people consider expensive and all that crap, that's not the point of this discussion.

[cliffbo]

If you ever hear someone say “Blu-Ray isn’t needed for this generation,” rest assured they don’t make games for a living.

LOL

[<3frosty]

absolutely inspiring!!!!!! if anyone ever puts the PS3 down again and you are one of those people that like to take a swipe (hell i might do it myself) then post a link to this. +rep. the best thing i have read (fullstop)

You mean, (nonstop):lol:

This was a pretty good read, and he had praise to give out to other consoles as well. Pretty smart guy, but certainly a little biased. But hey, he probably isn't too far from the truth in alot of things.

[rpgamer_2k5]

You could get a Sharp Aquos 32" 1080p set for $1599.99 while Westinghouse sets go for $1199.99. All are in Canadian figures. My point is that when LCDs become low cost they'll be predominantly 1080p.

[Segitz]

Hm, I think Germany is a bit on the "more ready" side to switch to HD.

The Football Worldcup last year was majorly promoting HD TV (alas we only have 3 watchable channels here yet, but more to come next year afaik).

And come 2008, the Olympics in China, this will again be a major push to HD.

Today, I went shopping again, looking for Black Hawk Down on BD ROM (didnt find it anywhere, guess its not yet released in Germany or so) and what did I see... 2 out of 3 stores were sold out on PS3s (the 2 bigger ones actually^^). But all still had Wiis and 360s in stock.

Also, HDTVs got so blatanly cheap over the course of the last year (I bought mine in October for 680€ and now the successor with a bit better picture is already selling für <600€) and are still likely to get even cheaper, where they hit the sweet spot (those Aldi/Walmart CRT prices you know). Then, everyone is sold on HDTV (which is likely to happen later this, maybe beginning next year).

Sony has the advantage to the casual buyer, that the console is newer, I kid you not. Many people just know it came out later, hence it must be better. Then again, Sony is a MAJOR player in Germany (look into any HiFi store around my town and you will see at least 40% of Sony equipment there, which sell like fresh buns) and are not likely to surrender their position.

Right now, PS3s mainly get bought by pure gamers and early adopters (like me), but come christmas this year, and many many good new games, the PS3 will have a hell of a yuletide, which also is likely to get even better 08 and 09 thanks to price cuts and even more good games!

I also think, that Sony will maybe sell out till end of next week (if they dont "overship" us). Usually, Europeans get their paychecks in the beginning of the week, and tax refunds are also usually around april.

But lets not drift away to a EU Launch thread here.


I personally was interested in his thesis about recent PS2 buyers. And I think, he is not that off with this thesis. If they like it, they are more likely to buy a PS3 in the end. And those people who are now buying a PS2 are not likely to buy a PS3 for 600€ (as I already said in the other thread) now. They want it for cheap and as they just bought the PS2, they have a myriad of games to explore, until the PS3 gets cheap enough!

[ddaryl]

I have to laugh, because I have pretty much debated the same 10 comments to many others in regards to why Sony is superior. Actually maybe 8 comments, I never forsaw Home, and Little Big Planet, which really just affirms Sony's grasp of the industry

Sony is King and it ain't going to change.

Now if the rest of the internet would take their heads out of their asses and just accept the fact that SOny's dominance is the best thing for the industry we can all go back to gettig along and playing nice.

IMO Sony is 2nd to none in regards to console hardware and superior hardware is what has seperated Sony from the pact. The PS3's hardware will pretty much leave the competition in the dust.

All the negative Sony spin is nothing more then sour fanasses, and Microshaft billion dolloar ad campaign buuying opinion, and stirring up blogs/message boards.

[Red_Eyes]

Well, let me put this in terms you all can understand.
Whether you love or hate Sony, if you’re trying to spin Home as a bad thing I can only conclude that you’re part of Microsoft’s $3.2 billion viral marketing campaign.
Simple at that.

[Applefiend]

And if you're part of the 3.2 billion dollar viral marketing campaign and ain't getting paid? Sucks to be you son. :)

[TimmyJ]

Whether you love or hate Sony, if you’re trying to spin Home as a bad thing I can only conclude that you’re part of Microsoft’s $3.2 billion viral marketing campaign.

Well, it certainly seems to have worked a treat. A quick comment from 2 of my PC-game-playing-only friends the other day was that Europe was paying more and getting less, and was backwards compatible with hardly any games i.e. missing EE... anyone that knows their stuff also knows that it isn't the case but of course when 'engadget' says otherwise, this otherwise then becomes the truth.

[cliffbo]

And if you're part of the 3.2 billion dollar viral marketing campaign and ain't getting paid? Sucks to be you son. :)

LOL.....

[GTAce]

Yeah i have to agree with Segitz.
Btw. the PS3 launch was good here, my dad was in the loacal Saturn on friday to surprise me with the PS3 and he means as he made a call to ask how many PS3's they got, the guy on the phone says they have 15 PS3's in stock and it wouldnt run so good as they expected but where my dad bought it there where only 5 PS3's left and that was just 30 minutes later.^^

Btw ive read the whole thing and i can just agree with him. Awesome read.

[Diresu]

I just love the whole doom and gloom air about the ps3 eventhough considering microsoft is the one trying to catchup with the "elite" 360.

Sony's response to the elite 360...

We think every PlayStation 3 owner should have an “elite” experience, which is why we include an internal hard drive and HDMI output in every PS3 we sell, along with the 50 GB of storage capacity on a high definition Blu-ray disc. Sony has been the strongest advocate of high definition as the future of next-generation gaming. This requires high-definition components, including HDMI output, and large storage devices to deliver and store all that rich and vivid HD content. Microsoft’s announcement today not only legitimizes Sony’s PS3 strategy, it moves us closer to adopting universal standards in the area of high definition gaming that will benefit game developers and ultimately the end user.

http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/03/sony_responds_t.html

[woundingchaney]

Ok guys lets not turn this into a MS is playing catch up or MS is backpedaling or this "viral marketing campaign".


I agree both points to one extent or another (although most likely not to the extent many do) and if we want to carry on with that notion then please start a thread in the 360 section.

[sikkinixx]

Damn this thread moves fast.


So in summary: PS3 will win because Sony has more foresight than MS/Nintendo. They made a fairly futureproof system that will last them through a few years. HDMI, HDTV, BR, will call take off and PS3 will be along for the ride.

I agree with a lot of what he said, especially about the Wii fad because it IS a fad, it will be a very viable gaming platform and I am glad I own one but all this hype about it will die and the same old gamers will be playing it just like they played GC.

However, the University student in me sees a lot of weak spots. Many of his claims like "fads die out in a year or so" are totally free of any sort of statistical backup (at least, he provides none) and things like Wii is a fad is very subjective to say the least. Lastly, with Insomniac IS independent, it is in his interest to be pro-Sony so stuff he said needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

But hey, it is nice to see someone stick up for Sony these days. Hopefully Home and LBP and the list of exclusives he rattled off will be a big hit. :)

[IEatFriedPikmin]

It was a good read, but i do disagree with a lot of stuff. I don't believe HDMI is really necessary according to the research i have done.

I disagree with his comments on how necessary Blu ray discs are. Multiple discs never hurt anyone... Playstation fans should know this especially. I highly doubt it will be an issue.

I disagree with his issue on Microsoft releasing 2 different consoles. Yes, a HDD is pretty much necessary, but anyone with half a brain knows to get the premium version of the console. Even if everyone has a HDD, i still don't think the developer should be able to just put large files on there... honestly 20gb isnt that big.

Is it just me, or is his xbox live pricing off? Since when is there a $20 fee to register for your first year? I know i never had to pay that, but i joined live before the 360, so maybe I am just missing something. It is still $4 a month, no matter how you look at it.

edit: I looked through it again... 50 gb games? Is that really close enough in the horizon that it would really hurt the 360? Maybe next gen.

And I do find his wii comments absurd.

[frosty]

Devs should be allowed to put large files on the HDD, but only if you choose. aside from that the main advantage in having the standard HDD is streaming data such as meshes to make transitioning from one material to another faster (according to what cpias said on the podcast). So, it's not as big a deal as some say, but it does make a difference.

As for switching discs, you have a point, but at the same time there are games coming out where that isn't feasible it all. Take lair for instance. It says the TGS demo level clocked in at 4GB. That's ONE LEVEL. You would have to change discs every other level to pull it off on 360 (barring other technical limitations).

[KRA]

Nice writeup.



So...will Resistance 2 have streaming textures?:thumbr:

well sure it will
if their new ratchet game do...

[sprrol]

I think the big push for 1080P and HDTV in general will be in 08-09. Come Jan 09 analog television broadcast will cease in the US and be switched over to digital. Mainstream consumers will have a very compelling reason to buy a HDTV. A Westinghouse 1080P set costs $1399 right now, and 1080P sets should be relatively affordable by then.

[Diresu]

In the end its his opinion and a well written one at that. You don't have to agree with everything but most of the things he said are true. Some things are obviously up for debate like the wii comment but its his take on it and thats how he sees it.

[sikkinixx]

I disagree with his issue on Microsoft releasing 2 different consoles. Yes, a HDD is pretty much necessary, but anyone with half a brain knows to get the premium version of the console. Even if everyone has a HDD, i still don't think the developer should be able to just put large files on there... honestly 20gb isnt that big.


Yeah but mommy and daddy buying a 360 for little billy won't know that the Core is a rip off. And people who can't afford the premium buy the core. It's a total cash grab by MS.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

It was a good read, but i do disagree with a lot of stuff. I don't believe HDMI is really necessary according to the research i have done.

I disagree with his comments on how necessary Blu ray discs are. Multiple discs never hurt anyone... Playstation fans should know this especially. I highly doubt it will be an issue.

I disagree with his issue on Microsoft releasing 2 different consoles. Yes, a HDD is pretty much necessary, but anyone with half a brain knows to get the premium version of the console. Even if everyone has a HDD, i still don't think the developer should be able to just put large files on there... honestly 20gb isnt that big.

Is it just me, or is his xbox live pricing off? Since when is there a $20 fee to register for your first year? I know i never had to pay that, but i joined live before the 360, so maybe I am just missing something. It is still $4 a month, no matter how you look at it.

edit: I looked through it again... 50 gb games? Is that really close enough in the horizon that it would really hurt the 360? Maybe next gen.

And I do find his wii comments absurd.

His wii comments are a legitimate concern of mine which is why I haven't picked one up. It is admittedly cool but I'm wondering how many people will care by this time 2008 or 2009? Developers jumped off the sinking ship that was the gamecube in like 2003, 2004 if not sooner, nevermind the N64. I'm playing wait and see with the wii because you can't sit there and tell me it doesn't have the air of 'novelty' surrounding it right now. That's a fact. Aside from zelda and wario ware (minigames minigames minigames) what else is there? "They ought to get border control in here with all these ports." -Tycho

I'm guessing multiple discs is more of a pain in the as for developers than necessarily it is for consumers. I did think it was pretty cool that FFX came on just one DVD though. And lots of people buy the Core model not having enough sense about them. Either way, the developers can't take advantage of it in any case because it's inconsistent.

I didn't think live was 70 dollars start up either, I only knew about the 50/year rate. In any case, Free is better than not free. And any feature that's lacking compared to live is being implemented or expanded on.

[cliffbo]

:sleep:

[IEatFriedPikmin]

i understand that sikkinixx, but did you read the rest of that paragraph? And stop with the finger pointing at microsoft. I assure you sony is in the video game market to make money... not to care for its customers emotions.

Frosty does make a good point though. I can see it effecting games in the future 2 or 3 years from now, but right now, i dont think some of this stuff is necessary. Unless the PS3 turns around a few years from now in terms of sales(i am not saying it wont), I don't think they will gain any exclusives simply because of specs.

[BillCosby]

If you haven't read the whole article read it. It makes alot of good points, and its good to hear a dev who's independent give good reasons behind not only purchasing a ps3, but why the ps3 will win the console war.

[cliffbo]

If you haven't read the whole article read it. It makes alot of good points, and its good to hear a dev who's independent give good reasons behind not only purchasing a ps3, but why the ps3 will win the console war.

its as simple as that... aint it nice...

[Jay Gee]

I came like a fucking firehose reading that. Just...Wow. What a read. What well written, extremely informative read from someone who is IN the industry and can actually be taken seriously. I've copied and pasted this in another forum of mine. People need to see this. The title may not win him any awards, but the content should not be ignored. It's a damn shame I can't +rep him.

[<3frosty]

Devs should be allowed to put large files on the HDD, but only if you choose. aside from that the main advantage in having the standard HDD is streaming data such as meshes to make transitioning from one material to another faster (according to what cpias said on the podcast). So, it's not as big a deal as some say, but it does make a difference.

As for switching discs, you have a point, but at the same time there are games coming out where that isn't feasible it all. Take lair for instance. It says the TGS demo level clocked in at 4GB. That's ONE LEVEL. You would have to change discs every other level to pull it off on 360 (barring other technical limitations).

More then likely, that one level had everything it could possible keep from compressing, not compressed. Games dont have to have completely uncompressed visuals, mpeg movies, etc. They can have a little compression and i will be fine. Thus, perhaps it would only take up about 3 gbs... :)

[EvilTaru]

More then likely, that one level had everything it could possible keep from compressing, not compressed. Games dont have to have completely uncompressed visuals, mpeg movies, etc. They can have a little compression and i will be fine. Thus, perhaps it would only take up about 3 gbs... :)

Factor 5 uses compression as well, you can't stream from the disc fast enough if you don't use compression. Just because the level takes up 4GB it does not mean they're not using compression.

[EvilTaru]

Interestingly my original thread at gaf has hit 12 pages without any mass bannings.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/Indifferent2.gif

[sikkinixx]

And stop with the finger pointing at microsoft. I assure you sony is in the video game market to make money... not to care for its customers emotions.



Well of course, every company wants more money. And Sony does have it's cash grabs (like the composite cable issue) and the core is no different than that. It limits so much of what you can use the 360 for, (like downloading anything) and when you wanna buy it seperately MS charges you through the nose for it.

[<3frosty]

Factor 5 uses compression as well, you can't stream from the disc fast enough if you don't use compression. Just because the level takes up 4GB it does not mean they're not using compression.

Obviously, the comment i made was a little sarcasm.

But, let be honest here. They probably did have everything they could uncompressed for the sake of showing off visually impressive things. Perhaps they can still fit everything relatively uncompressed on a single BD, but i cant know for sure unless they have said what they did.

[curryking1]

I think a good point to make about the Lair claim on 4 gigs per level is this.

I think we should probably take it as every piece of data in the first level is 4 gigs (uncompressed or compressed, doesn't matter). Every additional level will be using a lot of the same assets like the dragon, some textures, the water, the physics or whatever, and then every additional level on top of the first level will say be like a much smaller amount of size on that first level.

At least that's how it makes sense to me. I'm sure they are including every piece of data used in the first level and claiming it is 4 gigs. A lot of that data is surely carried over to other levels. I can't imagine every level being an additional 4 gigs on top of the original 4 gigs from the first level.

[woundingchaney]

I think a good point to make about the Lair claim on 4 gigs per level is this.

I think we should probably take it as every piece of data in the first level is 4 gigs (uncompressed or compressed, doesn't matter). Every additional level will be using a lot of the same assets like the dragon, some textures, the water, the physics or whatever, and then every additional level on top of the first level will say be like a much smaller amount of size on that first level.

At least that's how it makes sense to me. I'm sure they are including every piece of data used in the first level and claiming it is 4 gigs. A lot of that data is surely carried over to other levels. I can't imagine every level being an additional 4 gigs on top of the original 4 gigs from the first level.

Pretty much how I see it.

But in the end who knows.

[Nameless]

I actually agree with Brian's comments regarding the advantages of the PS3, BD winning the HD format war & the Nintendo comments... I do not believe these comments guarantee Sony success, but it does give Sony a better pair of lungs and sneakers for the marathon... (If that makes sense...)

Wounding hit the nail on the head for the mass consumer; it's not specs on a piece of paper. The true winner of the next-gen will emerge based on name recognition, pricing and GAMES.
Let's review each one in a little more detail:

Recognition - What system does your friends, family, co-workers, classmates play. This played a huge role in the PS2's success everyone had the console so you really felt the need to pick a PS2 if you played with others locally.
(The advent of online console gaming applies as well and will be huge this gen.)

Pricing - Can I afford it? Is it worth the price? I need it at all cost...
Are people prepared to pay over $300 USD for a gaming console? This argument is still up to debate regarding the average consumer. The sooner Sony can get their console under $300 USD the better...

Games - Established IPs, variety of genres, best visual, stronger overall titles
1st/2nd & 3rd party all play a factor here... Sony has the 1st/2nd party advantage & 360 has the 3rd party advantage, because titles are being targeted for the 360 and ported to other platforms. If Sony can gain enough market share this trend could change, but the ease of development for the 360 could still lead to better 3rd party support. Honestly 3rd party is still the wild card based on system sales and market share. Also, Sony needs to help 3rd party developers get to the point where PS3 titles look generally better than versions on any other platform. (Sony’s developer support is a step in the right direction.)
We all know titles built for a platform from the ground up will yield better results, but consumers want to see a clear cut advantage regardless of resolution or disk format. The mass consumer will only pay a premium if they see a clear cut advantage in simple terms…

It's too early to determine any clear winners & losers; the field is wide open and the finish line has not been identified... I will enjoy watching the race!

[Shadow Voa]

Its called good business relations.... with the company you basically work for. I love Sony?

Haha thats the ticket. I read a bit then stopped, laughed a bit and finished up on the parts that Im interested with my PS3. Insomniac always makes me chuckle whats with that? :laugh:

[Applefiend]

To me it's not quite like that. If you have a 360 game at 7.4GB, and you've filled your space, you have to go to your publisher and say "Can we have additional cost to have more disks". With the margins in video games being incredibly small you have to lose some of your precious revenue, or make your game a little more expensive than everyone elses.

"Our game is 9GB, we need an extra disk!"
"No way, cut out a gig and a half of crap".

That nice 58 dollar game you buy, very very little goes to the guys who actually make the game. What would really happen is they'd say "Everybody else is fine with 7.4GB, you cut your game to fit the cloth".

Now with Blu Ray, you've got a minimum of 25GB. The game developer is now thinking "How do I use my extra space to make my multiplatform game more attractive".

First up, those Meshes and textures we had to over compress to fit into 7.4GB, let those suckers breathe. Higher quality.

And the sound? 7.1 uncompressed. We got the room.

So let's take that live rendered cutscene that didn't look so hot, jam it through Maya, save it as a H264 1080p movie file. How it's got awesome draw distance, 16XFSAA, crowd scenes. It's much nicer.

Still got space left on the disk. How about those levels that didn't cut it? We'll put them in as unlockables. Finish the game, play the dodgy levels.

Still got space on our 25GB disk. What else. Get Freddy out with his digicam and do a quick "Making of documentary". Lots of half asleep guys at desks going "I ain't seen my wife and kids in three years man".

And that concept art work, throw that stuff in too.

We STILL got space left over. Let's put in some movies and demos of our publishers over products. Good for the gamers, good for the sales of these products.

Now we've filled up our 25GB with no extra cost. You've just got a much better product. It competes much better in the marketplace for very little effort.

[Danji]

Crap. All of this talk about DMC4 is finally getting to me. I'm gonna play through 1 or 3 pretty shortly here as my run-through of CV64 was short-lived. Stupid piece of crappy crap!

I really appreciate blu-ray being the format for the PS3..I'd have it no other way.

[curryking1]

Here's one thing I think everyone needs to realise.

It will never be determined which format is better for gaming. Never. The only thing that will be determined is which ends up having better games on it, because I think we all know very well Goldeneye was ten times better than a lot of other shooters during the PS1-64 generation.

25 GB does not translate to better product, I think that's my main point. Taking advantage of 25 GB might translate to a better product though, but it is at the same time impossible to say that no game under 7.4 GBs will not ever be better than the best 25 GB games.

If we had 200 GB discs, right now, for the PS3, it wouldn't make Lair a billion times better. It's all in the devs choice to choose whether or not to exploit certain advantages.

It goes both ways, in the end, the final product matters the most. I'd rather play Chrono Trigger more than I would ever play X game that is Y times larger, 99 times out of a 100. If PS3 games can do better with 25 GBs than the 360 can do with DVD9s, or vice versa, then, there you go.

But I do entirely agree that having a larger space provides devs with the choice to take that advantage of space, if that's what they want to do, they can go do it.

I see BluRay as an room, headroom, for more opportunity and choice to do things within games, I guess that it what we are calling the real advantage and what will possibly provide the 'better' games then. Not really that BluRay and more space makes a better game, rather it just gives the developers the option to go as big as they'd like to, that's the clear advantage to me.

[<3frosty]

To me it's not quite like that. If you have a 360 game at 7.4GB, and you've filled your space, you have to go to your publisher and say "Can we have additional cost to have more disks". With the margins in video games being incredibly small you have to lose some of your precious revenue, or make your game a little more expensive than everyone elses.

"Our game is 9GB, we need an extra disk!"
"No way, cut out a gig and a half of crap".

That nice 58 dollar game you buy, very very little goes to the guys who actually make the game. What would really happen is they'd say "Everybody else is fine with 7.4GB, you cut your game to fit the cloth".

Now with Blu Ray, you've got a minimum of 25GB. The game developer is now thinking "How do I use my extra space to make my multiplatform game more attractive".

First up, those Meshes and textures we had to over compress to fit into 7.4GB, let those suckers breathe. Higher quality.

So let's take that live rendered cutscene that didn't look so hot, jam it through Maya, save it as a H264 1080p movie file. How it's got awesome draw distance, 16XFSAA, crowd scenes. It's much nicer.

Still got space left on the disk. How about those levels that didn't cut it? We'll put them in as unlockables. Finish the game, play the dodgy levels.

Still got space on our 25GB disk. What else. Get Freddy out with his digicam and do a quick "Making of documentary". Lots of half asleep guys at desks.

And that concept art work, throw that stuff in too.

We STILL got space left over. Let's put in some movies and demos of our publishers over products.

Now we've filled up our 25GB with no extra cost. You've just got a much better product.

Unfortunately, that is time and money spent on all those extra features. Freddy doesnt work for free, and im sure the programmers who encode these features dont either. How much? i have no idea, but certainly there is no such things as a free lunch.

BTW, those BD discs cost a little bit more to manufacture. :susp:

I doubt the publisher would mind adding in another disc, considering it costs a total of 5 cents more or so. What happens then of course is that is multiplied by lets say a million Units. But, how much did those BD cost? 3 bucks each or something? Hell, lets say they cost 30 cents. BAM, suddenly it is viable to have multiple discs. Of course i have no exact calculations on this, im just an unbiased bystander that knows a little.