What do we consider Next Gen?

[cliffbo]

i really hope we can conduct ourselves in a civil manner on this subject... that's of course if you are interested.

i have many views on what i'm expecting from a next gen game and hopefully i'll be able to share them during the chat here, but what i'm not going to do is list them to start with. all i'll say is that i would consider LBP as next gen and judging by the reaction the industry gave it at GDC, they did too. so what do you think would get cheers from the devs?

edit: please no flights of fantasy like a holodeck, keep it real and within the realms of possibility please ;)

i'll put this here as an example of what i'd like to see:


animation is one of the main areas i've been considering of late. if we are to create believable characters in game, its no longer good enough to have set animations that offer a certain amount of differences. to me next gen will have procedural animations that allow for an almost infinite amount of differences, some subtle, some obvious. but what will lift next gen way above current gen will be a difference in how we actual manipulate the character.

up until now we push the jostick forward and the character either walks or runs, we pull left and right and so forth... we CONTROL the character. i would consider next gen to change this and make it so that we DIRECT the character instead. for instance in last gen games we would push the character up against a gate and press X to open it. in next gen games the character you control will also have AI and not just be your puppet. he will realise what you want to do as soon as you approach the gate and push forward, opening it and then waiting for more directions. just like an actor - using motion sensing to decide whether you are inactive as a player - he or she will wait for a short while for directions and if there are none, he or she will do things without input: light a cigarette, sit down, build a fire, a plethora of things that make it interesting just to sit down and watch. this creates a sense of a real virtual world.

animation is one of the main areas i've been considering of late. if we are to create believable characters in game, its no longer good enough to have set animations that offer a certain amount of differences. to me next gen will have procedural animations that allow for an almost infinite amount of differences, some subtle, some obvious. but what will lift next gen way above current gen will be a difference in how we actual manipulate the character.

[curryking1]

Should I list those I think are, or describe what makes all of them what I think is next gen?

[cliffbo]

Should I list those I think are, or describe what makes all of them what I think is next gen?

ye, it would be better to actual describe what you think makes an idea next gen. that's why i haven't just listed my ideas, it would just all end up as a wish list ;)

[mario25]

Lair

[curryking1]

Well that makes it more difficult lol. I'll need some time then hahah, I'll try to come up with something later today or tomorrow, I will be using examples throughout my description though, is that ok?

[Diresu]

For me, next gen is going to be the clear jump in quality of animations, scope and physics aka WKS, FF13, Lair, Heavenly Sword etc.

[GTAce]

Anyone remember the F1 trailer from 05?
At the beginning you look through a drivers helmet and see the crew preparing for the race etc. thats what i hope we will see in this gen.
Everything should interact with each other and i think something like LBP and HOME are a huge step forward to something lke that.
I wanna see dozens of people moving in the pit in GT5, i want to see the AI interacting like real soldiers in MGS4 etc.
Thats how i define next-gen, just this feeling that the world in the game is alive.

[cliffbo]

Well that makes it more difficult lol. I'll need some time then hahah, I'll try to come up with something later today or tomorrow, I will be using examples throughout my description though, is that ok?

time is something i think we'll have plenty of until E3 comes, so take as much time as you like Curry...

[curryking1]

Well that's good, Diresu basically captured what I would've said lol.

AI also, but that's a give in. Lair is a great example.

P.S. I'm sorry if I implied I was going to write something long hahahha, I was just trying to think of how to say what I thought lol.

Lol @ the I have time til E3. Very good point lol. We basically do have time to dream and think of what next gen will be, and E3 will be that place where it will either match, fall below, or surpass our expectations.

[woundingchaney]

I basically judge "next gen" on a game to game basis. There really isnt any one aspect that defines "next gen" to me, its more of a package deal.

[curryking1]

Elaborate please wounding, I'm not sure I'm getting what you're saying lol, it went right over my head lol.

[sikkinixx]

Dead Rising was a big step in my mind. Big, open, tons of stuff to interact with, nice graphics but more than that it was that there could be hundreds of zombie on screen at once. I really felt immersed in the environment when I played. Pity that stupid AI, annoying controls, very annoying save system and some other gripes pulled it down so much. *sigh*

Motorstorm is half way. The physics and tracks and graphics are amazing but it still feels like any other racing game to me. Frankly it feels half done and I expect Motorstorm 2 to be a lot better.

Games like Gears are not 'next gen'. Nice graphics, but very confined linear gameplay. I don't mind following a story and such and having to go from point a to b but in Gears the developer might as well have put a big sign that said "COVER HERE RUN TO THERE THEN COVER AGAIN OK?!" I felt really pushed into following the exact path they wanted me to take, especially in that whole propane tank thing. But thats just me, my friend thinks Gears is Next-Next gen gaming....

I would love to see better, seamless online integration, something Too Human is apparently pushing for. More Co-op (the best part of Gears. period.) would be awesome. I would love to see devs basically rip eachother off to keep building on the best part of games. It seems like a lot of games have a few great things but the rest is kinda meh, but if someone were to hybrid them all, it would be killer.

[Cofey]

Just out of curiosity, when are we going to stop saying "next gen?" The last of the three major consoles launched over 5 months ago now. XBox and GameCube are dead already, and PS2 will be within a year. I think that by now, THAT was the last gen. 360, Wii, and PS3 define the CURRENT generation.

Not that that has any bearing on this thread. I just tire of hearing that phrase used over and over again. It has been being tossed around for years now.

[curryking1]

When everyone cumulatively decides to stop calling it next gen, then it will happen. It will likely be around the time we start hearing somewhat regular rumours about the next-next gen hardware.

No reason to fight it.

/offtopic

[cliffbo]

For me, next gen is going to be the clear jump in quality of animations, scope and physics aka WKS, FF13, Lair, Heavenly Sword etc.

animation is one of the main areas i've been considering of late. if we are to create believable characters in game, its no longer good enough to have set animations that offer a certain amount of differences. to me next gen will have procedural animations that allow for an almost infinite amount of differences, some subtle, some obvious. but what will lift next gen way above current gen will be a difference in how we actual manipulate the character.

up until now we push the jostick forward and the character either walks or runs, we pull left and right and so forth... we CONTROL the character. i would consider next gen to change this and make it so that we DIRECT the character instead. for instance in last gen games we would push the character up against a gate and press X to open it. in next gen games the character you control will also have AI and not just be your puppet. he will realise what you want to do as soon as you approach the gate and push forward, opening it and then waiting for more directions. just like an actor - using motion sensing to decide whether you are inactive as a player - he or she will wait for a short while for directions and if there are none, he or she will do things without input: light a cigarette, sit down, build a fire, a plethora of things that make it interesting just to sit down and watch. this creates a sense of a real virtual world.

[Nameless]

I basically judge "next gen" on a game to game basis. There really isnt any one aspect that defines "next gen" to me, its more of a package deal.

Agreed...

[woundingchaney]

Elaborate please wounding, I'm not sure I'm getting what you're saying lol, it went right over my head lol.

Well for me a game doesnt need to have AA or be 1080p if it is impressive in other areas, I dont need advanced physics if I have smooth animation so on and so forth. I primarily judge games on a game to game basis, if I like a game the it looks good and has a quality gameplay then it is next gen. Essentially there really is no singular set of guidelines that I follow for a game to be "next gen" to me, its primarily based upon my enjoyment of the title on a whole.

[Diresu]

animation is one of the main areas i've been considering of late. if we are to create believable characters in game, its no longer good enough to have set animations that offer a certain amount of differences. to me next gen will have procedural animations that allow for an almost infinite amount of differences, some subtle, some obvious. but what will lift next gen way above current gen will be a difference in how we actual manipulate the character.

up until now we push the jostick forward and the character either walks or runs, we pull left and right and so forth... we CONTROL the character. i would consider next gen to change this and make it so that we DIRECT the character instead. for instance in last gen games we would push the character up against a gate and press X to open it. in next gen games the character you control will also have AI and not just be your puppet. he will realise what you want to do as soon as you approach the gate and push forward, opening it and then waiting for more directions. just like an actor - using motion sensing to decide whether you are inactive as a player - he or she will wait for a short while for directions and if there are none, he or she will do things without input: light a cigarette, sit down, build a fire, a plethora of things that make it interesting just to sit down and watch. this creates a sense of a real virtual world.

Uncharted comes to mind actually. Huge amount of animations just for something like taking cover. Thats next gen animations.

[Matt]

I basically judge "next gen" on a game to game basis. There really isnt any one aspect that defines "next gen" to me, its more of a package deal.

Yea, that's the way I see it as well. There isn't a "generation" where every single game is pushing the boundaries of the previous one. I always remember the water effects of Baldur's Gate on the PS2 being amazing at the time, and now games like Rub-a-Dub are pushing that further.

There's also certain games that will bring in some new kind of gameplay that's never been seen before as well. So I can't really point out anything specific until I actually witness it.

[Handycrap101]

Well... I'll speak on behalf of what I expect from MGS4. This will sound simple and we've all seen it mentioned before but for me, in order for MGS4 to be truly an amazing experience in my eyes would be to have a seamless battle field. I mean like one massive city where the battle is taking places, and Snake conducts his own operations within that huge piece of land. In past MGS we've always played through sections with loading times inbetween and I've always kind of accepted it. But for Kojima to really pull of the battle field feel he will have to pull this off. In all games we've seen it too. When I play games with seamless worlds like that and I don't have to deal with those pesky load areas in the middle of game segments that will be a big step into the "next-gen".

Forgive me if I missed the idea of the thread...

[curryking1]

Ok I get what wounding is saying now lol.

I judge next gen on the most elite titles. The cream of the crop defines what gaming is for me, and this next gen will be no exception. I will expect a big adventure from an adventure game that pushes everything that makes adventure games more fun (big environment, crazy animation, huge action, smooth gameplay), and from every other genre their respective 'strengths' to be improved to some new order.

My key point is for genres strengths to be improved to that new order, that simply wasn't feasible the last time around.

For the strategy games, AI, and if the game is appropriate for it, massive scale. For adventure games, I think Uncharted with huge environments and the new amazing smooth animation along with the intuitive control I hope they add with the 6XS (the walking along log idea comes to mind). For shooters, insane destruction, huge scale if it's appropriate for the game like KZ would be, I honestly think what KZ is trying to do in terms of shear destruction.

To make genres from before what they could not be before and what they can be now, that's my definition of next gen.

[cliffbo]

Uncharted comes to mind actually. Huge amount of animations just for something like taking cover. Thats next gen animations.

i would agree with you on this Diresu, i think this title above all others will begin to define what next gen means.

edit: please fellas, don't derail a thread just because you don't agree with the thread, disagree by posting in other threads

[Diresu]

i would agree with you on this Diresu, i think this title above all others will begin to define what next gen means.


Yea so far I agree. I think animations are the most important part for me because they really show of a clear jump in quality. Heavenly Sword is a good example, smooth very fluid animations all the way around. Scope is the 2nd most important thing for me and Lair is a prime example. The world is huge. Its also extremely packed which really shows of what a next gen game is all about. It doesn't take a hit in graphics to deliver that scope either which is that much more impressive.

[cliffbo]

Yea so far I agree. I think animations are the most important part for me because they really show of a clear jump in quality. Heavenly Sword is a good example, smooth very fluid animations all the way around. Scope is the 2nd most important thing for me and Lair is a prime example. The world is huge. Its also extremely packed which really shows of what a next gen game is all about. It doesn't take a hit in graphics to deliver that scope either which is that much more impressive.

Sony have invested heavily in the Cell and we all know what areas it is strong in: AI and Physics. and so we should look to these areas for inspiration. we have spoken endlessly about AI in enemies, but there has been NO mention of AI in the character we control. this is going to hit most people blind side, but i've been waiting for it for years now. think of the possibilities giving your character AI bring. if you walk into a smoke filled room, he will reach up to cover his mouth, or in a flame filled room wrap his coat about himself, or if he is confronted with a horrific scene, he may cower from it, meaning you have to urge him forward. he may fight against your instructions... this is next gen animation

edit: and incidentally this is why a lot of titles are not impressing me at the moment. graphics should go without question now.

[masteratt]

Personally:

Motorstorm: Mix of high-def graphics with the best physics I've seen and track derailing.

Gears Of War: Nice environments...Nothing else about it feels next-gen I'm afraid (to me).

LAIR: Huge scale, Cell ends up calculating many things on screen at once. Simply impossible to do in previous gen.

Uncharted: What was it now? Over 2000+ animation did they say? Well colour me impressed.

These are the only games that feel fresh and next-gen.
The others to me are like old gen games with a few tiny bits added.

[curryking1]

E3 is too far off in July now.... at least we'll see more complete stuff all around I guess then, but that figures anyways lol.

[VG Aficionado]

If we are not talking about graphics, I'd consider "next gen" anything that makes me think: "Hey, no PS2 game did this".

So far, I've seen very few examples among many graphically impressive games. It's hard to elaborate on this, but I'd have to say that, for instance, fighting games haven't really evolved since they became 3D. Animations got better (to some extent), but besides that...

AI and physics are two of the things that I expect to become the main features that differentiate next gen games from last gen games. Fully scripted behaviours and canned destruction won't cut it, although they're always a plus and it's not like we can expect these two aspects to suddenly get a leap of improvement, let alone reach perfection all the time.

Well... I'll speak on behalf of what I expect from MGS4. This will sound simple and we've all seen it mentioned before but for me, in order for MGS4 to be truly an amazing experience in my eyes would be to have a seamless battle field.I think it was revealed around last TGS in Famitsu that there wouldn't be loading times when you roamed around anymore, that the environments weren't linear and that while it would always be possible to sneak through enemies and situations or use your weapons to beat them.

[KRA]

i have seen today 1up show and there was a game sadlly not for ps3 just pc and xbox graphics was meh but it was fps with zombie and tehre were no scripted events. zombie could go from anywhere and it is co-op and you could survive only be with others and play like a team and there is this ai that is watching at every player and if he has little action then sends more zombies and then after a big battle it calm down whole atmosphere just to attack again. i don't remember name but it feels refreshing from that video. and i like it yeah it is strange i hate pc gaming and microsoft but i would like it or something fimiliar to hit ps3. maybe resident evil 5.

[cliffbo]

when they give the character that you control AI and make it so that you DIRECT and not CONTROL the character, then that effectively changes the functions of the X, square, triangle and O button. the X button then becomes the Imperative button; in other words in the example of character animation, where he fights against the flames, the character would do everything in his power to avoid you pushing him into the fire. he will step back, move left or right. but when you press the X button that is signalling to your character that there is no alternative but to leap through the fire.

[Smokey]

i consider Nextgen to be PS4 :)

[VonGak]

Good topic.

The last big step was the move to 3D.

What I expect of this new gen isn't just better looking 3D graphics but 3D with substance.

At the moment there's no difference between a pillow and a rock in a game other than the textures and the context they are presented in.
I want the pillow to act like a pillow, soft.

Also the interaction with objects should be more real, when stepping on a pillow it should get squished and instead of teleporting into the inventory the character model should bend over and actually pick it up (the first Hitman game did this).

I do not want more and bigger like seen in Lair and Heavenly Sword (though both titles are taking steps in the direction I want; fluid simulation (dynamic grid) and animation blending.
Instead I want games to go in the opposite direction, rooms should be smaller but with more objects to interact with and less but smarter AI controlled NPCs. Imagine shooting up a real world like apartment instead of running down through endless hallways with sporadic placed objects to destroy.

But it's not just about destroying the environment but also about using it, use a bookcase to block a door, hide behind a couch but not use it as cover, use braked glass as alarm (when stepped on it), use the content of a bottle to make the floor slippery, use a lamp as a blunt instrument and so on.

While talking about destruction, let the bookcases actually be bookcases with books/painted bricks in them instead of being boxes with posters of books glued to them; it will be so much more fulfilling in firefights/brawling (won't look so good in still images but in action...).

In other words, next gen is in the CPU. For the GPU the job will stay the same and it won't be able to see if the polygon models and textures are dynamic or pre-defined, it will just render them as they were pre-defined like in "old" 3D games where everything is like on a movie set.

[EvilTaru]

Good topic.



But it's not just about destroying the environment but also about using it, use a bookcase to block a door, hide behind a couch but not use it as cover.



The bookcase blocking door thing has already been done in RE4.

You can hide behind stuff in Siren to stay out of the field of vision of those zombie things

[Z]

for me, I look at what we have overall as the current gen. next gen has to be clearly up and above any current accomplishment. for me, current games now on PS3 are all the next step and the new level, so this is next-gen.

I don't look at PC games since they don't have clear leaps with every new hardware wave like consoles. their evolution is gradual so I don't judge by their results.

Just out of curiosity, when are we going to stop saying "next gen?"

terms like these aren't officially defined or used. it is us the users who come up with them, decide how to use them and so on. it is up to you to make your own opinion.

personally, I will keep using 'next-gen' till I feel a comfortable amount of people around me have experienced these results for me to drop any term with -gen in it completely. I won't mention it again till I see new console/handheld hardware to redefine a new leap for me. chances are, it will be with the next Sony handheld solution.

[dnpmakkah]

Even though I'm not a graphics whore I do tend to think next-gen games need to be better graphically then last gen. I do agree with the above poster that Dead Rising was a good 'next gen' game. Although visually not thaaaaat impressive the amount of items you could use was crazy. I would call Dead Rising the minium of what 'next gen' should be and as of right now Gears of War the pinacle.

[Diresu]

Even though I'm not a graphics whore I do tend to think next-gen games need to be better graphically then last gen. I do agree with the above poster that Dead Rising was a good 'next gen' game. Although visually not thaaaaat impressive the amount of items you could use was crazy. I would call Dead Rising the minium of what 'next gen' should be and as of right now Gears of War the pinacle.

Eh...after playing dead rising, the only thing that made it next gen was the amount of people on screen at once. Yea there was a lot of objects to use I guess but it makes me wonder if all that is why the graphics are not that great.

[VonGak]

The bookcase blocking door thing has already been done in RE4.

You can hide behind stuff in Siren to stay out of the field of vision of those zombie things

:) but only as pre-defined. I want the bookcase to block because of it's weight and position (in RE4 it's place there with one purpose only; to block the door. I want it to have any purpose the player should chose).
An empty bookcase shouldn't block the door nearly as well. :)

And my hiding example was more about the matherial, a couch you can hide behind but it's no good as cover in a firefight.
Talking about hiding, I also like Kojima's approach with no pre-defined hiding spots where one is safe from scripted patrolling patterns.

A thing I forgot to mention is that I'd like the NPC AI to be aware of the environment, sensitive to changes while also using it to the NPC's own advantage (should be as, if not more demanding than the army AI in a Total War game).

Oh and this needs to be said; Siren is the best horror game.

OT: Would I be mistaken if I claimed that you used to post on Gamespot's SW and Nintendo boards?

[Gegenki]

I'd also like to see what VonGak is saying.
Being so interested in AI recently the biggest most important thing I would like to see is AI. I'm so fed up of this fake AI that people are always going on about.
An example would be in resistance. The enemy may here my footsteps or my gun shot and they will turn to face me. With surround sound. I can hear things moving or shooting at me, but I still have to look for it.
As far as games are concerned AI seems to be all about scripted response rather than intelligence.
I'd really like to see what you were talking about Cliffbo but that would be a scripted response. You could say, if he walked into a smoke filled room, he has a gun in his left hand and covers his mouth with his right or vice versa but it would still be scripted in that they would just program it to change hand. AI really needs to become free form.
I can't see it happening due to the complexity and it just plain might not even be possible but what I don't want is animation! I want to see calculated movement rather than predefined movement repeated over hundreds of different types of terrain.
On a similar note to that, next gen games MUST be physics driven otherwise it just feels stupid. In UT2004 I can't shoot through gaps but in resistance if the bullet is small enough you can shoot through any gap you see. Football games should call a foul if the player slid and didnt hit the ball first. The ball should only move if the character manipulates the ball. In adventure games, you should be able to pick up random objects because it is real time calculated physics driven mechanics
Generally I accept next gen to be anything that a previous gen console couldnt do. Not just graphically but also in game mechanics but I'd really like to see these things happen over the next few years to make games truely next gen. I think we are working towards some of this

[curryking1]

^That sports thing is really hard to do, just FYI. Although they are certainly working towards something like that, it'll be a while until that, just because the animation and such would be so complicated. I'm not saying there isn't enough power in the consoles to do it now, but it's difficult to get such seamless animation in a sports title.

I agree with VonGak and Gegenki, and especially everyone who commented on AI.

[venomv]

I'll know current-gen when I see it, but what I expect out of the 360 and PS3 are advances in physics, A.I., and animations. Graphics are going to advance as most people want them, but, using VonGak's example, I'd rather have a 720p pillow that acts like a pillow, then a 1080p pillow that acts like a rock......

[Applefiend]

What I consider next gen, don't care what anyone thinks. :)

Last, last gen
320x240 graphics
CD-ROM storage
MPEG1 video playback full screen
Low resolution textures
single texturing
digital or analogue controls
Low polygon count / draw distance
Basic physics (No ragdoll, physics systems)
no online

last gen
720x480 graphics
DVD rom storage
MPEG2 video playback full screen
Medium resolution textures
multi texturing
All analogue controls
Medium polygon count / draw distance
Better physics
Basic online multiplayer

current gen
1280x720
Blu Ray storage
MPEG4 H264 / VC-1 playback full screen
High resolution textures
Shaders
Analogue / Motion control
High polygon count / draw distance
Excellent physics (complex physics systems)
Advanced online (buddy lists, downloadable games, video chat, extra episodes)

Last, last gen is VHS
last gen is DVD
This gen is a movie theatre baby.

[Sypher]

BLOOM LIGHTING

[gibmonster]

BLOOM LIGHTING

Don't forget specular lighting, and A LOT OF IT. Halo 3 will lead by example.

[curryking1]

I can't see what you wrote there Sypher.... :P

[Sephiroth_VII]

This (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=224) is next-gen.

[Viper]

There are the basic console to console generations.
Nes/Sega Master System
SNES/Genesis
PS/N64/Saturn
PS2/GC/Xbox/DreamCast
PS3/Wii/X360

Arguing what makes something next gen on the basis of technical prowess is a moot point....however, there are generations within each consoles software development life cycle.

This typically refers to when most development studios begin working on their second title for a console. Some are sequels, others are not.


You can't quantify the difference in generation either as is noted by the variances of the above posts, it's all subjective. What makes a second gen game within a console software cycle is not when devs begin using graphical technique A or A.I. sequence B. The specifics of the matter are not quantifiable measures of when a second generation of software comes to shelves.

Reason is many devs may be using graphic feature A and/or A.I. sequence B in their first gen games but we may not know it. Their use may not be evident. Case in point, the GC game Rogue Squadron was a launch title that pushed over 15 million polygons per second. Do you know how many GC, PS2 and Xbox games that pushed 15 million polygons 4 years after that game was launched? Very few. So did something as incredible as 15 million polygons make it a second gen, 3rd gen or given that after 4 years still few have matched it, a 4th gen game? No, it was first gen.

By nature of developers learning more about a system on their 2nd, 3rd and later on games, the details, techniques and capabilities naturally progress. The commonality of these techniques and capabilities stems from this common progression of development learning.

On the flip side of that, just because a title doesn't contain certain graphic effects or capabilities does not make it a previous gen game (ie: a 2nd year title using common launch title graphic features).

[curryking1]

I never quantified anything, I gave qualitative descriptions of what I thought next gen was.

[Applefiend]

Nah, it goes...

Nes/Sega Master System
SNES/Genesis
PS/N64/Saturn
PS2/GC/Xbox/DreamCast/Wii
PS3/X360

Mainstream people aren't ready for mainstream next gen right now. People don't want to shill out $2000 for a TV when they got pets and bills and house repair bills to pay.

I walk into Dick Smiths out of Auckland over here, I spend 130NZD on games, the shop assistant looks at me and says "GOD DAMN YOU'RE SPENDING 130 JUST ON GAMES?"

I go... errm... yes...

Then I feel guilty about the $7,000 bucks of video games consoles and home cinema stuff back at my house.

Those guys buy Wii.

Nintendo took their last gen console, over clocked it, added a few extensions to the GPU, gave you a whole new way to play games, knocked it out at a good price and put killer marketing behind it. Wii has very little in common with PS3 and 360. Yes, there is something beyond hardware that makes a console next gen, it's called marketing. The controller ain't enough to be in the next gen club.

Don't think for a minute this a a next gen console, it's the final, best last gen console ever made. Most people don't have HD TV, don't care about HD TV,don't have surround sound. They don't have Dolby Pro Logic II, never mind 7.1. Wii looks great to them on their CRTs. Wii is brilliant, Nintendo are going to get rich and might even run off the the biggest pot of money.

... but it ain't next gen. Want to know what Wii's main competitor is? It's PS2.

Don't make it bad. Last gen gaming is great. Ninja Gaiden is great, Resident Evil 4 is awesome, God of War 2 rocks. Last gen is great. Last gen to me is better than current gen right now.

But you don't get to be in the next gen club, ah ah. Maybe you want to give Wii it's own generation all by itself? That's OK.

Want to know the difference between next gen and last gen? It's the difference between Motorstorm and ExciteTruck.

<*Runs away from Viper*>

[agentorange]

When the game can really kill you

[Viper]

The Wii whether some of you like it or not is part of THIS generation of consoles.

The capabilities under the hood have no bearing on the qualifications of which generation a console belongs to. This is a matter of successive products releasing after a previous generation of products. It's more tied to release date than CPU.

Now to say the Wii is powered by technology more prevalent during the PS2/GC/Xbox generation, that's absolutely plausible yet fact of the matter remains it belongs to the PS3/X360/Wii generation. This is not subject to debate, it's fact.

The N64 jumped to 64 bit tech, should it not be included in the 32 bit tech generation of Saturn and PS?

The PS2 is 128 bit. Should the 32/64 bit hybrids of the GC and Xbox be placed in the PS/Saturn/N64 generation? The Xbox is significantly more powerful than Dreamcast yet you'd lump them as the same generation so why is it a problem for Wii?? Philips CD-i had 5th generation power but is a 4th generation system.


PSP stepped well above the generational increase from GBA to DS yet are they not to be considered same generation handhelds?


There are 7 generations of consoles.


1st:
Pong, Magnavox Odyssey, Atari 2600, etc...

2nd:
Atari 5200, Odyssey², Intellivision, ColecoVision Vectrex, etc...

3rd:
NES, Sega Master System, Atari 7800

4th:
SNES, Sega Genesis, NEC TurboGrafx-16, SNK Neo Geo, Philips CD-i

5th:
Sega Saturn, Sony PlayStation, N64, 3DO, Amiga CD32, Atari Jaguar

6th:
DreamCast, GC, Xbox, PS2

7th:
Wii, PS3, X360

[curryking1]

Ya, literally generation really should only include time of release. The Wii is different, for sure, but it's still next gen, or this gen, or whatever.

It branched out and didn't go the upping the ante of the hardware, but I'd still consider it next gen, regardless of the real term generation referring to time.

But from what I got, next gen we are talking here is exclusively what makes 360 and PS3 games next gen according to these two's greater computational abilities. It seems to be the area that needs to be discussed more, we already all probably agree that the Wii's games are going to be Wii games because of the Wiimote and how it's used (mainly).

[Viper]

The main difference that separates this gen from last, in terms of X360 and PS3, is resolution. The individual intricacies of each give so little difference between them that no single console has a next gen quality that the other cannot come at least somewhat close to replicating or matching outright.

The difference in 720P and 1080P is actually of little consequence since the end result is determined by the TV the user has and is not a single quality that should truly separate any game this gen. Granted for those with large 1080P sets, a 1080P game will be most pleasing to th eye.

Also, the decision to make a game 720P or 1080P can be a simple matter as RAM issues or a frame rate trade off. keeping some titles at 60fps may require the use of 720P only. A game at 1080p and 60fps doesn't make it any more impressive as it usually required a sacrifice of graphical detail to achieve. Basically stated the game may have actually had more eye candy if it stuck to 720P and 60fps or 1080 and 30 fps.

The mere fact the resolution, and the new requirements it takes to support them, are so key to this gen, I feel it's what makes this gen.

[curryking1]

^I completely agree that almost every single game that has come out for the PS3 and 360 so far fit into that category.

Hopefully this will change soon honestly, I don't want next gen to just be the increase in resolution, which is the case for most games so far.

[Applefiend]

I think it's fair to say if one console is around 20 times as powerful as another, it's fair to say it's not in the same ballpark.

If all there is to a generation is a timeline then that's nothing. Timeline and marketing. If Wii had been called Gamecube 2 people wouldn't question it.

I think people confuse "next gen" with "good". A game can be next gen and suck royally. Being next gen doesn't make you better.

The PS2 is 128 bit. Should the 32/64 bit hybrids of the GC and Xbox be placed in the PS/Saturn/N64 generation?

Nobody uses number of bits as an indication of power, and haven't since the 80s. If anything it's number of processor cores/shader units/bandwidth/Mhz that's a better rough guide. Ask any engineer they'll tell you 64 bit systems can sometimes be slower than 32 bit systems due to latency issues.

Nobody uses bits to measure generation or power because it's of very little consequence.

I like Wii, I think extending the Gamecube architecture for another 4 years was a master stroke. Saying it's an extended gamecube is terrible, terrible marketing, and Nintendo don't do that. Wii's marketing is so good I thought a couple of cute jGirls would turn up when I bought one. :)

But come on... Nobody is watching... It's an overclocked GC with flash memory and a new control scheme. Be honest. They could have made Wii in 2003. In a bigger box for more money.

If Sony had brought out a PS2 with a 2x clock GS and EE it wouldn't be next gen either.

[Viper]

Now to say the Wii is powered by technology more prevalent during the PS2/GC/Xbox generation, that's absolutely plausible yet fact of the matter remains it belongs to the PS3/X360/Wii generation. This is not subject to debate, it's fact.

That should sum it up enough for you.

[Applefiend]

So the argument is. "Next gen is summed up by whatever date the console came out in".

Not shaders, storage, control, resolution, online, delivery methods, none of that.

Have to agree to disagree on that one. A generation is a collection of consoles based on similar technology, not the ticking of a clock. Not a date on a calendar.

And this topic is what do we consider next gen, think I've shot my bolt on that one. :) I'm not one for filling in with the majority, got to think for yourself. Does get you in trouble that though. :)

<*Really runs off*> :)

[Viper]

Sorry, Apple but shaders, storage and the like have nothing to do with what denotes a generation. It's a mix of release date and successive product releases. I'm not making this up, it's business terminology.

[masteratt]

Sony is on it's 3rd Gen of consoles.
Microsoft is on it's 2nd gen.

And Nintendo is on it's 7th Generation.

The end.
Those are FACTS, don't/ can't be argued.
That's how generations are done.

So what do I consider next-gen?
Well from Sony's perspective, PS4.
From Microsoft's perspective, the 3rd Xbox.
From Nintendo's perspective, their 8th Console.

This is of course hardware product wise...For software next-gen, refer to my previous post in this thread.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

What next generation is, as far as classification goes, is the generation after the last. They are seperated by dates. The next iteration in a line of consoles by Manufacturers A, B and C. there is a clear lineage and technological as well as chronological progression (they go hand in hand).

What next generation is as far as ideals and assertions, experiences and expectations go is so goddamn abstract that I'd rather not think about it. I'd rather huddle into a corner and rock myself to sleep, repeating, "Find a happy place!" rocking back and forth with anxiety. A lot of people I think let their imaginations, their biases and their, well, ignorance get the better of them, so when they see what the next generation is, and it isn't what they were expecting, however impressive it may or may not be, they fall back down to earth and are sorely disappointed, and take it out on...whoever. The games, the makers, the system, the competition, etc.

The trouble is when people let their imaginations, or expectations get in the way of letting them enjoy something before they even try it. Now more than ever things get judged at face value and anything less that perfection is immediately cast aside and shunt as trash or 'less than'.

"That doesn't look very next gen."

Well what is next gen? Can you hold it? Can you carry it around with you? Have you seen it before? Have you seen what next gen is before it ever even arrived? If not then how does anyone know what the hell qualifies as next gen? It's an abstract idea that can only be understood internally on the individual basis. Bias (and not, 'I like playstation and not xbox or nintendo bias, I mean, the things that make up your personality and your traits as a human), tastes, experiences and your likes and dislikes will determine what you consider next gen. How jaded, scrutinous, open or forgiving you are as a person will determine how much fun you can extract out of a game that is released between now and the year 2013, regardless of its production values or visual sheen, behavioral AI depth or lifelike animation and physics, barring of course the expected quality control and basic playability a game should have (lack of bugs, decent rules, risks and rewards).


I consider a next gen game a game that is fun and beautiful in its own right, and at the very least accomplishes things that could not be accomplished last gen on a technical or aesthetic level. A game that is not as gorgeous as Metal Gear Solid 4 is not automatically ugly. Which is probably why my biggest peeve is when people say, 'looks like a ps2 game', because they obviously have some secret PS2 that was 10 times as powerful as everyone elses, or they just need my glasses.

[Viper]

Now THAT's what I'm talking about.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Shit son, our mantra should be, 'The Next Generation is here, whether you like it or not."

[Viper]

I recently stated, "Next Generation doesn't start until PS2 says it does" but that works too.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Hahaha, whichever works for the moment.

[Applefiend]

It's no biggie, call it whatever you want.

But some guy on New Zealand TV just called the Deftones Emo, that cannot go unpunished.... Grrr...

[TheGreenElf]

The original post mentioning the character "knowing" what to do as you walk toward a gate or w/e would be nice, but almost too difficult. Think how frustrating it could be if you don't want to actually walk through the gate, but does and your soldier is slaughtered because you really wanted to sneak around. It just seems too unpredictable, plus people like having full control over it.

[curryking1]

The original post mentioning the character "knowing" what to do as you walk toward a gate or w/e would be nice, but almost too difficult. Think how frustrating it could be if you don't want to actually walk through the gate, but does and your soldier is slaughtered because you really wanted to sneak around. It just seems too unpredictable, plus people like having full control over it.

Which is an excellent point. Either there must be a balance between the two, or both control and AI independence and human like behaviour made to work together as one.

This is also of course not to say that AI even on one's own team acting more freely and independently can't add more to another kind of experience. In Army of Two they seem to want to do this, they want to experiment with the player having to 'deal with' their computer controlled ally's mistakes. I'm interested to see how that turns out myself.

[Diresu]

Which is an excellent point. Either there must be a balance between the two, or both control and AI independence and human like behaviour made to work together as one.

This is also of course not to say that AI even on one's own team acting more freely and independently can't add more to another kind of experience. In Army of Two they seem to want to do this, they want to experiment with the player having to 'deal with' their computer controlled ally's mistakes. I'm interested to see how that turns out myself.

Thing is, that you can have a lot of animation detail on little things that you don't need to control. Uncharted being a GREAT example. You go for cover...you don't care how you look behind it as long as you are in cover, but the fact that you can be in cover 100 different ways really adds to the game. They could do things like that for a lot of things. Like holstering a gun for example, reloading, running, acrobatics of any kind...etc. Things you don't really think about but when they all add up, it really would help bring the game to life.

[curryking1]

^I didn't say otherwise did I? No seriously lol, I mean this in the nicest way possible lol, I totally agree with you there. There's many ways to improve a game, and many directions to do it in as well.

Naughty Dog with all those crazy animations for what would essentially be very similar user input is a really cool way to enhance the experience in my opinion as well.

[Diresu]

^I didn't say otherwise did I? No seriously lol, I mean this in the nicest way possible lol, I totally agree with you there. There's many ways to improve a game, and many directions to do it in as well.

Naughty Dog with all those crazy animations for what would essentially be very similar user input is a really cool way to enhance the experience in my opinion as well.

Well now that i look at it i probablly should have quoted Green Elf not you but oh well. Was just kinda trying to continue the convo lol. Didn't mean to throw you off >.<

[Sephiroth_VII]

What next generation is, as far as classification goes, is the generation after the last. They are seperated by dates. The next iteration in a line of consoles by Manufacturers A, B and C. there is a clear lineage and technological as well as chronological progression (they go hand in hand).

What next generation is as far as ideals and assertions, experiences and expectations go is so goddamn abstract that I'd rather not think about it. I'd rather huddle into a corner and rock myself to sleep, repeating, "Find a happy place!" rocking back and forth with anxiety. A lot of people I think let their imaginations, their biases and their, well, ignorance get the better of them, so when they see what the next generation is, and it isn't what they were expecting, however impressive it may or may not be, they fall back down to earth and are sorely disappointed, and take it out on...whoever. The games, the makers, the system, the competition, etc.

The trouble is when people let their imaginations, or expectations get in the way of letting them enjoy something before they even try it. Now more than ever things get judged at face value and anything less that perfection is immediately cast aside and shunt as trash or 'less than'.

"That doesn't look very next gen."

Well what is next gen? Can you hold it? Can you carry it around with you? Have you seen it before? Have you seen what next gen is before it ever even arrived? If not then how does anyone know what the hell qualifies as next gen? It's an abstract idea that can only be understood internally on the individual basis. Bias (and not, 'I like playstation and not xbox or nintendo bias, I mean, the things that make up your personality and your traits as a human), tastes, experiences and your likes and dislikes will determine what you consider next gen. How jaded, scrutinous, open or forgiving you are as a person will determine how much fun you can extract out of a game that is released between now and the year 2013, regardless of its production values or visual sheen, behavioral AI depth or lifelike animation and physics, barring of course the expected quality control and basic playability a game should have (lack of bugs, decent rules, risks and rewards).


I consider a next gen game a game that is fun and beautiful in its own right, and at the very least accomplishes things that could not be accomplished last gen on a technical or aesthetic level. A game that is not as gorgeous as Metal Gear Solid 4 is not automatically ugly. Which is probably why my biggest peeve is when people say, 'looks like a ps2 game', because they obviously have some secret PS2 that was 10 times as powerful as everyone elses, or they just need my glasses.

My thoughts exactly, +rep.

Wii is as next-gan as both the PS3 and the 360, just in a different way. You couldn't play Wii Sports on the standard Gamecube, no matter how you look at it.

[VonGak]

Shit son, our mantra should be, 'The Next Generation is here, whether you like it or not."

I can't claim to agree.

But maybe it's about interpretation the topic which I personally see as next generation of gaming and not next generation of console hardware.

You listed the hardware generations but the console game generations is different.

Using Nintendo as an example:

1) NES and SNES

NES and SNES are ultimately in the same generation as the essens of the game-play found in SNES games could be done on NES with only less detailed sprites.

2) N64 and GC

But there's a huge jump between NES/SNES and N64/GC where N64/GC games through 3D graphics and controls (analogue stick) allows for game-play which never could have been done on the NES/SNES.

3) Wii

Not through processing power but through controls opens for game-play which couldn't have been done in previous gens.

There was games experimenting with 3D worlds/graphics on NES/SNES but it wasn't the general direction nor was it where the progression in game-play was achieved.

I want to debate where's the next move, where's the game-play going to make a gain. Is PS3/360 just about more detailed graphics (the NES to SNES/ PS1 to PS2 minus Internet jump) or is it the mud in Motor Storm, context aware fighting mechanics/controls in Fable 2 (or in our own Cliffy's vision) and the physics in Half Life (up till then it didn't really have a game-play purpose but was more seen as neat graphics).

Nintendo says the next gen gaming is in the controls, Microsoft says it's in Internet and graphics while Sony has its focus on the CPU though not overlooking graphics, Internet and controls.
But one thing is for sure, they all want their consoles to take a step and do things which couldn't be done before in terms of game-play and not just scale.

I do not think that anyone here expect an over night gameplay revolution, it's more about the direction. There's still basics which have existed from the beginning and will continue to exist.

[xone_4]

when i see 1080 games with AA activated at 60fps, then i will feel it is nextgen ;)

damn i hate aliasing.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I can't claim to agree.

But maybe it's about interpretation the topic which I personally see as next generation of gaming and not next generation of console hardware.

You listed the hardware generations but the console game generations is different.

Using Nintendo as an example:

1) NES and SNES

NES and SNES are ultimately in the same generation as the essens of the game-play found in SNES games could be done on NES with only less detailed sprites.

2) N64 and GC

But there's a huge jump between NES/SNES and N64/GC where N64/GC games through 3D graphics and controls (analogue stick) allows for game-play which never could have been done on the NES/SNES.

3) Wii

Not through processing power but through controls opens for game-play which couldn't have been done in previous gens.

There was games experimenting with 3D worlds/graphics on NES/SNES but it wasn't the general direction nor was it where the progression in game-play was achieved.

I want to debate where's the next move, where's the game-play going to make a gain. Is PS3/360 just about more detailed graphics (the NES to SNES/ PS1 to PS2 minus Internet jump) or is it the mud in Motor Storm, context aware fighting mechanics/controls in Fable 2 (or in our own Cliffy's vision) and the physics in Half Life (up till then it didn't really have a game-play purpose but was more seen as neat graphics).

Nintendo says the next gen gaming is in the controls, Microsoft says it's in Internet and graphics while Sony has its focus on the CPU though not overlooking graphics, Internet and controls.
But one thing is for sure, they all want their consoles to take a step and do things which couldn't be done before in terms of game-play and not just scale.

I do not think that anyone here expect an over night gameplay revolution, it's more about the direction. There's still basics which have existed from the beginning and will continue to exist.

then it just seems to me like you're actively over thinking it. just my opinion.

[CrumCon]

In my humble opinion.. next-gen should achieve fine graophics and marvelous physix.

to me next-gen are:
MotorStorm 2005 Trailer
Killzone trailer
Heavenly Sword!!
Uncharted !!!
Little Big Planets!!
Mass Effect
Gears of Wars

All other current available titles are crap to me.. crap in gfx and in physix which doesnt qualify them as next-gen game.

Not even MGS4.. the gameplay looks like crap to me. the first trailer they shows snake and some diers in real-time were damn fine! but as time goes by.. the game has downgraded to me. no more the eye candy and crazy physix MGS4 we used to know.

surprisingly.. Heavenly sword and Uncharted are the only games that looked and even exceeds the videos sony have shown during E3 2005 and 2006.

[Nodieza]

CRYSIS!!! is that unfair... okay...

Lair and Crysis at 60fps in 720P will suffice for me as next gen BUT neither of those will run at 60FPS Crysis will not on my computer for a LONG time... and Lair was said to run at 30FPS but that'll do for me.

Physics are a huge thing for me, interactivity, I'd rather visuals take an artistic direction like Heavenly Sword rather then go for realism. So next gen is already here IMO, Motorstorm has the physics, Little big planet has/will have interactivity and physics, visuals (based on gameplay videos) and then just for pure showcasing Virtua Fighter has amazing visuals.

[VonGak]

then it just seems to me like you're actively over thinking it. just my opinion.

Well I'd claim that calling a game next gen just because it runs on next gen hardware is the same as turning off ones brain.

Just my opinion. :beer:

But obviously, to some UT and GeoW are the epidrome of next gen like see SNES as a gian leap over NES.

[Gegenki]

Quick question, but I don't know how to pose it best.

Right now we are looking at Geforce 8
If we took a Geforce 5 card, and gave it amazing unrealistic clock speeds such that it far out stripped a Geforce 8. Then realesed it onto the market. Would you say it was the same generation as a geforce 8 or that it was an overclocked geforce 5.
On the one hand, the definition of generations is a time scale. Like if I'm born in year x and someone is born in year x + 30 then they are different generations but all the people born in year x are the same generation no matter how 'not clever' any of those people might be. So we are looking at the 7th generation of gaming.
On the other hand people like to think of generations as leaps of technology because it makes sense to classify a 233mhz 32bit x86 processor as pentium 2 level even if it is released now. Theres a little something we expect from each generation and thats what will make things truely next gen in our minds.

You know we should really coin a name for it like gameration (gene - game /> my imagination isn't working well right now). Harderation (hardware /> wow im terrible at coming up with names (most people, not even my dad can even say gegenki))

[curryking1]

I believe the terms next generation and generation are different now lol.

Generations referring to time differences. The cumulation of next with generation as next gen meaning 'what we expect' from the newest generation of consoles in terms of how the games look and play.

Or should the two words together not mean what we expect, but what we actually get from this new generation of consoles (which would be more easily rated in the middle to end of the lifecycles)?

Maybe we don't really have a place to define, as of yet, what is next gen and what isn't. Maybe our expectations will not match the mark of what the new generation of consoles will actually offer us.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Well I'd claim that calling a game next gen just because it runs on next gen hardware is the same as turning off ones brain.

Just my opinion. :beer:

But obviously, to some UT and GeoW are the epidrome of next gen like see SNES as a gian leap over NES.

my whole argument is that once you take the idea of 'next generation' beyond technological and chronological classification, 'next generation' is an abstract idea that no one will ever agree on anyway, so the discussion could go on forever, like it does every goddamn day, because everyone's trying to tell everyone how smart they are..:piss:

[jaxmkii]

what is next gen?

we have yet to see it from any camp. Everything has just been pritty games. but i still feel like im playing my PS2 with insane grafix.

[curryking1]

^Maybe that's exactly what next gen is. If it ends up like that for the majority of the generation, then next gen will in fact be pretty PS2 games.

Or it could be more, we'll have to do the old wait-see I think.

[EvilTaru]

The term "next-gen" doesn't really mean anything other than during the PS2 era games are called current-gen, and when the new consoles and their games come out they're called next-gen, that's pretty much it, nowadays PS3 and xbox360 games are essentially "current-gen" games and PS2/xbox/GC games are last-gen. There's no common qualifier other than the timing of the consoles. The whole "what I think next-gen should be" doesn't mean anything.

[Viper]

what is next gen?

we have yet to see it from any camp. Everything has just been pritty games. but i still feel like im playing my PS2 with insane grafix.

We've been spoiled with certain revolutions in gaming a few generations ago but have been let down to a degree the past two.

VonGak touched on this some previously as the jumps from NES to SNES were nothing revolutionary. The jump from SNES to N64 and PS were huge as polygons and disc based storage took the limelight.

But going from those revolutions to last gen and then again to this gen has largely been lacking in revolutions. Sure, the Internet came to be a feature of gaming which in essence is really an extension of regular old multiplayer. For 2 of the 3 we get a jump to higher resolutions. Nice but that doesn't exactly change the game any, as it were. Add in some motion control and THAT's the biggest shift in 2 generations.

The progression of the industry has been bland and boring lately and largely expected. Everything seen on X360 and PS3 (motion control aside) is as it's expected to be. Did we see the polygon, analog control and disc based gaming coming at us all those years ago? Nope. It was unexpected and when it was announced, changed the industry forever. Motion control has now done the same but it's still not as widely accepted as those other revolutions were back then.

We may never see another leap so great as the one taken back then. But then again, because we never saw those coming, we'll probably not see the next great revolution coming either. For now, expect a linear progression largely scaled by graphic fidelity. Hopefully the next generation of consoles (PS4, X720 and Nintendo ?) will bring about a fundamental change that once again revolutionizes the industry.

[Applefiend]

I thnk people expect too much. I think people want a game with Ghost in the Shell 2 graphics with AI so smart it does your taxes at 1080p120 with this and that and the other and NOTHING LESS WILL DO. If it ain't got all that crap, it ain't next gen.

How about a game that plays as well as Jak 3 on PS2, only HD TV res with lots of really neat physics puzzles, detailed graphics, draw distance to die for, and lots of other neat tricks you can't do on PS2. That would make me happy, how about you?

I think people looking for a change in the industry as big as from Atari 2600 to NES, or 2D to 3D with Playstation are in for a huge dissapointment. If there's any revolution it'll be fleshed out online. User created console content is probably the thing you could really call next gen.

Cross play is also very next gen. I'm here playing Jak 3, I have broadband connected 24/7, why don't some other guys hop in and be a boss level for me, or just direct some minions. That's so next gen. No AI is as good as real players.

PS2 is just old and ugly and needs an across the board upgrade. Everything better. Be happy.

[Diresu]

^I think you hit the nail on the head but this gen so far just seems to be a pissing contest about what console has better graphics.

[curryking1]

I totally agree with Apple and Diresu and Viper. EDIT - And Vongak also, I forgot you lol ;)

I think what we have to do, all of us, is instead of tell developers what next gen is, we have to see what they come up with to tell us what next gen is.

The jump will be as big as these guys can make it, and whatever we get from these consoles, that will be what next gen is.

The whole "what I think next-gen should be" doesn't mean anything.

EvilTaru, I COMPLETELY agree with you.

[Applefiend]

I think the real next gen will start soon, with the user created XBLA games, people making levels for Little Big Planet, people uploading horrific singstar videos, with Home.

The real next gen is driven by... *tap* *tap* that ethernet port and *tap* *tap* that 60GB HDD.

You know me as far as next gen goes, I mostly play PS2 games I've yet to finish as they're better developed and play tested.

The graphics whoredom is really really short sighted and tiresome, absolutely.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

The game industry in my opinion is like any entertainment industry in it's infancy and youth. Rapid growth in the beginning and then steady, somewhat predictable or not-so-mind-boggling growth after the biggest fundamental changes occur. The question is, when does the industry hit puberty, and then how will we know when it's out of it and into maturity? At some point, the industry's will stop growing out of old clothes and growing into new ones and it's tastes (were it a person) will simply grow and evolve and spread out over time, like the movie industry or the comic book industry.

We're all people who have to some extent experienced the birth of the industry first hand if not 2nd hand (for the younger guys), so as the revolutions start to not leap out around every corner, I think we tend to get a little pissy about it. Our too-big clothes are starting to fit and (to completely obliterate the analogy) we have to go cut the grass and wash the dishes. :P

[curryking1]

Whoa, interesting question Lali. If you're talking overall and not within each generation, I say the next point of insane rapid growth is going to be when the consoles are used more as multimedia hubs and the game industry grows closer to the movie industry like we've never seen. I think that will be the next 'big change.' The connection to the internet, the trailers, the demos, the music store, and growing more interdependent with the movie industry.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

the same way game consoles begin to assimilate multiple tasks like movie and music playback, web browsing, the same way a developing child learns how to do multiple things, and then how to multi task, and how movies at first were just black and white and really shitty looking, then had music, then had voices, then we develop all kinds of special effects for them, then color, and so on.

[Viper]

The multitasking isn't so much showing the growth of the video game industry as it is a parallel of the entire electronics industry as a whole. Convergence is simply the IN thing right now. A major electronics device at this point that does just one thing kinda gets laughed at so to speak. Going back each generation, which obviously shows a reduction in the multitasking capabilities of each generation, and you'll note the lack of multitasking is just as much a lack of technical power in each system as it is a lack of direction in the electronics industry.

Maturity could then be projected when a video game console is on the same shelf as a DVD/Home Theater unit.

[cliffbo]

let me point one thing out here: a next gen game could still appear on the PS2! a simple thread with a simple premise, once again derailed by pedant. i'm talking about the games here, not the hardware, although of course next gen games are more likely to be accomplished on more powerful hardware.

i can see how it could be frustrating if you approach a gate and the character automatically opens it and walks though, but it would only happen if you indicated to the character that it was an IMPERATIVE; that is to say that you would have to push and hold for the character to understand that you wanted it opening and you would have to push forward for the character to actually walk through. at the moment characters act as if they are our puppets. if we pushed them up against a brick wall, they would either carry on walking in the spot or just stand there facing the wall. what i want is a slight disconnection between myself and the character so that i get the impression he/she/it has a will of its own and that i am only DIRECTING them (as my fire example demonstrates) the character may look up to see if its possible to jump up or search the wall for footholds.. or even just sit down in protest after a while, thinking you a fool.

imagaine walking into a room and asking your character to walk into the kitchen. you haven't eaten for quite some time and so he hurries into the kitchen and automatically pulls you towards the fridge. you could stop him doing this but, he would be less willing to leave because he is hungry and so leaves reluctantly which would be reflected in his gait. if you stand for a long time beside a chair or a settee, he would sit down and await your next instruction, he may pick up the remote control for the TV and flick through the channels, maybe opting for something that reflects his taste or personality. Snake for instance might want to watch a James Bond film. if there is a noise outside, he may turn the TV down and stand, readying himself for your next DIRECTION.

[VG Aficionado]

The latest PS2 games, compared to the first ones, feature game design and technical prowess that I'd consider "next gen". Shadow of the Colossus, MGS3, Burnout Revenge, FFXII, RE4, GOW2... they all surpassed my expectations on all levels.

If I saw equivalent features on PS3 games, I'd definately consider them next gen.

[Viper]

Dur?

You're going to have to explain that one a little further there, Cliff.


EDIT:
You guys are confusing generational advances inside a current generation of console with the being next generation.

Each console undergoes several mini-generational advances but to claim that some from last generation ARE equal to this new generation is giving much more credit than they deserve. Technical wise at least.

[cliffbo]

A Next gen game is a game that pushes the envelope in terms of gameplay... simple. Tekken for instance was the first fighting game i played that felt as though the characters had weight. but again... is it really getting that difficult to discuss thing her on E-mpire (that's a rhetoric question and is not meant to lead to further derailments) ideas... ideas... ideas PLEASE

[cliffbo]

The latest PS2 games, compared to the first ones, feature game design and technical prowess that I'd consider "next gen". Shadow of the Colossus, MGS3, Burnout Revenge, FFXII, RE4, GOW2... they all surpassed my expectations on all levels.

If I saw equivalent features on PS3 games, I'd definately consider them next gen.

ye, you got the idea ;)

[VG Aficionado]

Each console undergoes several mini-generational advances but to claim that some from last generation ARE equal to this new generation is giving much more credit than they deserve. Technical wise at least.Design wise, no doubt. Technically wise, although obviously not at the same level as the latest games, there's quite a bit of "next gen" influence and prowess in SotC, mostly considering how old and hard to exploit the PS2 hardware is. This (http://www.team-ico.net/sotc/index.html), as well as playing the game myself, has convinced me that there's much, much more than the average PS2 game to it.

RE4 on GameCube can put to shame some of the first "next gen" games that were released shortly after it technically wise, despite of lower resolution and the quality of a handful of things.

[Viper]

i can see how it could be frustrating if you approach a gate and the character automatically opens it and walks though, but it would only happen if you indicated to the character that it was an IMPERATIVE; that is to say that you would have to push and hold for the character to understand that you wanted it opening and you would have to push forward for the character to actually walk through.

Link from Legend of Zelda has been using an auto-jump mechanic very similar to this since Ocarina of Time on N64. You simply run to the edge and continue pushing forward and it jumps for you. If you slow down just before the edge it will not jump.

[curryking1]

I don't think we should call games from the PS2 next gen, rather those games that play like PS2 games or Xbox games from next gen are too similar too last gen, for our liking.

[cliffbo]

Link from Legend of Zelda has been using an auto-jump mechanic very similar to this since Ocarina of Time on N64. You simply run to the edge and continue pushing forward and it jumps for you. If you slow down just before the edge it will not jump.

think of it as the difference between CONTROLLING and DIRECTING and i think its clear what i'm saying here. you are the director and you character awaits your direction... anyway its coming and i'll point it out when its here.

[Viper]

So a mix of common gameplay and the Sims gameplay.

[cliffbo]

forget PS2/360/Wii/PS3/PSP/Saturn/Dreamcastt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What would you consider a Next gen GAME!

[cliffbo]

So a mix of common gameplay and the Sims gameplay.

got it! ;)

[curryking1]

I'm still all for waiting for devs to show us what next gen is, instead us trying to define it too early cliffbo. Next gen will be what they make it, not what we want it to be.

[Viper]

It seems to me that some of you are simply wanting to knwo what our 'ideal' game would be like. Slapping the 'next gen' label on it means little.

What we would subjectively accept as the ideal gameplay, graphics, art direct, sound, etc... Call it next gen, future gaming, 4D or whatever other marketing label you want. You're asking simply what each of us wants as a baseline for great gaming that is within the capabilities of the PS3, X360 and PC.

[cliffbo]

I'm still all for waiting for devs to show us what next gen is, instead us trying to define it too early cliffbo. Next gen will be what they make it, not what we want it to be.

Curry fella, i'm disappointed in you... are we all to turn into cold receptors awaiting the media to fill us up. this is such a simple thread with many possibilities and yet only a hand full of people have truely embraced it.

close it please mods... posting anything is becoming a bit of a chore to tell you the truth

[cliffbo]

'What is the meaning of life?" asked Jesus

'Depends on what you consider life,' said God

'Life is what you live...' suggested Jesus.

'I think you should wait until you have lived to ask that question,' God said and smiled.

'But then i wouldn't have to ask that question,' jesus said, folding his arms and looking bemused.

'Then why ask the question?!' God said.

'UP yours DAD!' said Jesus

[curryking1]

I'm not waiting for the media to tell me what next gen is. I'm waiting to experience KZ2, FF XIII, Halo 3, Uncharted, Metroid, SMGalaxy, and all the other upcoming games from the 360, Wii, and PS3 to tell me what next gen is.

I can't make up next gen myself, I can't tell them what it will be and what it should be, that's a lost cause. The only thing there is left is for the developers of games to finally actually define what this generation of gaming will offer us.

It might match our expectations, it might match what we want, but it might not. We as the spectators cannot tell the developers what next gen is, they'll have to show us.

[cliffbo]

I'm not waiting for the media to tell me what next gen is. I'm waiting to experience KZ2, FF XIII, Halo 3, Uncharted, Metroid, SMGalaxy, and all the other upcoming games from the 360, Wii, and PS3 to tell me what next gen is.

I can't make up next gen myself, I can't tell them what it will be and what it should be, that's a lost cause. The only thing there is left is for the developers of games to finally actually define what this generation of gaming will offer us.

It might match our expectations, it might match what we want, but it might not. We as the spectators cannot tell the developers what next gen is, they'll have to show us.

event, ramification, possibility, probability and inevitability are telling me animation will go the way i'm suggesting

[curryking1]

I never said animation would or wouldn't go in any direction. I'm just saying I'll wait until next gen games cumulatively tell me how good next gen can be.

[vdo]

It seems to me that some of you are simply wanting to know what our 'ideal' game would be like. Slapping the 'next gen' label on it means little.

I agree with this - one person's ideal game is not another person's. Cliffbo's example of directing a player is interesting and I would try some games with it, but being a platformer fan, I would not want the platformer type of game to go away or reduce in number to make room (it already is hard to get enough good ones as it is). I personally like games that give you precise control and require timing and finesse (done wrong they are frustrating experiences, but done right they give me such a great sense of satisfaction to complete).

Too often, as console generations try to come up with new ways of playing games, the old ways are left behind. Like 2D platforming, devs found that 3D was "next gen" at the time and just went with that. Then sandbox mission style games became the thing and 3D platformers started taking on that aspect. I really like 3D platformers, but I am glad with the latest console that Media Molecule decided to go with 2.5D (so far I am liking 2.5D over plain 2D as it looks good but gives you good control). 2.5D fits LBP well, and yet it is pushing things more than a lot of fully 3D games. But a lot of devs would not have taken that leap and thought it would be safer to go 3D since any form of 2D is not next gen enough, especially for the PS3.

I think just as long as devs keep in mind that as gaming progresses, it does not necessarily mean they all have to move to developing in whatever new ways are found and minimize other forms. As shown with LBP, there is plenty of innovation to be found on current and older forms of gameplay.

[curryking1]

^That's a good call Vipes.

[cliffbo]

Life is... naaa, sod it i can't be bothered, i'll wait until i'm told

[curryking1]

cliffbo, that's entirely different. All of us seek out to find out our real purpose in life.

Only game devs make games, I don't make games.

[cliffbo]

cliffbo, that's entirely different. All of us seek out to find out our real purpose in life.

Only game devs make games, I don't make games.

don't you? 3.0...........................

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Uh, no, not yet. And even then that's not a universally applicable idea. It's not something EVERYONE has access to, nor something everyone will take advantage of once we do have access. Like I said, trying to define an abstract idea with tangible experiences and expectations. Not gon' work.

[cliffbo]

i really hope we can conduct ourselves in a civil manner on this subject... that's of course if you are interested.

i have many views on what i'm expecting from a next gen game and hopefully i'll be able to share them during the chat here, but what i'm not going to do is list them to start with. all i'll say is that i would consider LBP as next gen and judging by the reaction the industry gave it at GDC, they did too. so what do you think would get cheers from the devs?

edit: please no flights of fantasy like a holodeck, keep it real and within the realms of possibility please

i'll put this here as an example of what i'd like to see:

Quote:
animation is one of the main areas i've been considering of late. if we are to create believable characters in game, its no longer good enough to have set animations that offer a certain amount of differences. to me next gen will have procedural animations that allow for an almost infinite amount of differences, some subtle, some obvious. but what will lift next gen way above current gen will be a difference in how we actual manipulate the character.

up until now we push the jostick forward and the character either walks or runs, we pull left and right and so forth... we CONTROL the character. i would consider next gen to change this and make it so that we DIRECT the character instead. for instance in last gen games we would push the character up against a gate and press X to open it. in next gen games the character you control will also have AI and not just be your puppet. he will realise what you want to do as soon as you approach the gate and push forward, opening it and then waiting for more directions. just like an actor - using motion sensing to decide whether you are inactive as a player - he or she will wait for a short while for directions and if there are none, he or she will do things without input: light a cigarette, sit down, build a fire, a plethora of things that make it interesting just to sit down and watch. this creates a sense of a real virtual world.

[Viper]

Cliff you may want a more hands off approach to 'next gen' but I'd prefer more a more immersive experience. Motion control to the extent of 1:1 sword swings. A sword fight, online even, would truly take things to a whole new level. With full environmental damage. Slice a curtain, I'd like to see it sliced at the angle the player swung.

or

I'd like to see a Football game whereby each player takes on the role of an individual position on a team combined with the incredible motion control of Madden Wii (with some updates though).

[vdo]

I thought the fantasy game Marge played on the Simpsons last night was interesting. If you really watch what is going on in the game there was a lot to it - Skinner as a turkey getting lit on fire and being cooked and now able to be eaten by Apu, lol. I think that goes with what Cliffbo is trying to convey. The fact that they had that complexity combined with that you press ctrl shift R to run made it even funnier.

But really, devs should watch that episode and study what they did and say to themselves, what out of there can really be done? Just as one example, look into having players speak into a their mic and actually have their character's face animate to make it look like it is saying those words. Capture expressions via eyetoy so that when a player rolls their eyes and shrugs their shoulders it happens on screen, if they are laughing while they talk it happens on screen. If you watch the episode, you realize that the game characters are acting in the game as the players themselves are acting and feeling. That alone made the game seem more real when watching it.

[cliffbo]

another thing that i think should be used in next gen titles is better and more location sensitive dialogue. the one thing that all games do and should never do is record dialogue in a studio (stupid idea and i've been waiting for this to change for years now. i guess some devs are just too stupid to see the obvious) it always sounds disconnected from the location and no matter how hard they try, by putting incidental sounds in, it always sounds wrong. what's the answer? it soooooooooooooooooo easy! ever watched a 'Creature comforts' episode from Ardman Studios? if you have the idea just jumps out at you and you think why haven't they done this already!!!!

so what is the simple answer: you put the actors who are going to voices into a location that emulates the location in the game. if two characters are talking in a cafe, thats where the acters do the scene. you mike the up and let them do their thing without anyone knowing (this is ONE example... but i expect a dozen posts after this to concentrate on that... oh well...) what you have then is not only the main dialogue but all the sound effect and inconsequential chit chat in the background. so you then emulate that in the game. someone picks up their coffee and says 'Its been cold today' you hear it behind the main conversation and we see in the back ground who is saying it...

[Angeljuice]

For me, the first time I really felt like I was playing a next-gen game was when I first loaded Motorstorm.
It works like a physics demo but with fantastic graphics and awesome, fun gameplay. It all adds up to an intense experience that wasn't possible last-gen IMO.

[cliffbo]

For me, the first time I really felt like I was playing a next-gen game was when I first loaded Motorstorm.
It works like a physics demo but with fantastic graphics and awesome, fun gameplay. It all adds up to an intense experience that wasn't possible last-gen IMO.

so what do you think makes a next gen title and what would you like to see used in games? you can answer that... or wait and see, its up to you :)

[curryking1]

^You see, Evolution Studios made that, and now AngelJuice calls that next gen.

What if Evolution Studios made an even better game with ten times the physics? Would that make what Motorstorm actually is not a next gen game?

Devs will show us what next gen really is, and we will decide whether it matched our expectations and if we like it or not. It's what they are capable of that will define what next gen is. Not what we think it is.

We can want something from next gen, make our expectations of next gen, we can idealize what we want next gen to be, but it's not something in our hands.

'Next gen games' literally should really refer to 'a game on the new generation of consoles.' Now how good they are compared to each other is an entirely different matter.

The definition of next gen we have formulated ourselves through our own expectations of next gen is simply something of our own creation now, which is not the same as the literal meaning. The next gen term we have come up with over these past two years is not the literal term, but it's our expectations and what we want.

When we say something is 'not next gen' that simply means it hasn't matched our expectations for what we want from next gen. When we say it is next gen, then it has matched our expectation. But the literal meaning of next gen games should still stay as 'games on next gen platforms.'

[cliffbo]

Well that makes it more difficult lol. I'll need some time then hahah, I'll try to come up with something later today or tomorrow, I will be using examples throughout my description though, is that ok?

^You see, Evolution Studios made that, and now AngelJuice calls that next gen.

What if Evolution Studios made an even better game with ten times the physics? Would that make what Motorstorm actually is not a next gen game?

Devs will show us what next gen really is, and we will decide whether it matched our expectations and if we like it or not. It's what they are capable of that will define what next gen is. Not what we think it is.

We can want something from next gen, make our expectations of next gen, we can idealize what we want next gen to be, but it's not something in our hands.

'Next gen games' literally should really refer to 'a game on the new generation of consoles.' Now how good they are compared to each other is an entirely different matter.

The definition of next gen we have formulated ourselves through our own expectations of next gen is simply something of our own creation now, which is not the same as the literal meaning. The next gen term we have come up with over these past two years is not the literal term, but it's our expectations and what we want.

When we say something is 'not next gen' that simply means it hasn't matched our expectations for what we want from next gen. When we say it is next gen, then it has matched our expectation. But the literal meaning of next gen games should still stay as 'games on next gen platforms.'

Curry fella :) how did you go from being really interested in the idea of thinking about the question to your last post? read this thread and think about it really carefully. all i'm asking is for people to give their opinions on what they would like to see in a next gen game... how much simpler could it be?