Why you are an Idiot

[Hisham]

@Hisham: I owned all 3 consoles last gen and I liked my PS2 a lot more than the other two knowing well that it was the least powerful of the three.

The way I saw it was like this:

The consoles are both artists. Xbox has the best tools (I strictly mean hardware. Not development tools). PS2 doesn't have the tools that the xbox has, but is a much better artist.

Graphically, I found many xbox games to be very similar on aesthetics and art direction aswell as gameplay. As a result I found that alot of games on that system were boring and uncreative. Sure PS2 games built from the ground up didn't look as good as the games built from the ground up on xbox, but they were very distinguishable and devs did a lot of neat tricks to make the games look good. Now, graphics, in my opinion, are important if the devs use it effectively such as to convey something. The gameplay obviously is the most important aspect of any game. But I don't see anything wrong in wanting both awesome graphics and gameplay, there is no direct corellation that good graphics and production values will mean shitty gameplay.

Now imagine what the PS3 can deliver now that it has the better tools. Hell, look at some of the games already released and the new games coming out over the next 6 to10 months. Not only do they look good, but they look like they will be awesome and fun to play.

I hope I'm making sense. I'm not exactly in a very good mood to post properly now. I'm tired.

Yeah but what I am saying is that having the best graphics wasn't an issue for Sony fans last gen, or even before that. Last gen Xbox fans touted the graphical capablities of there system over the PS2, and (not singling out anyone really, just basing it on what I saw at the time) Sony fans said it was the gameplay that mattered. Now with the PS3 being the most powerful, you just want to switch places? That is the stupidest shit I have ever heard.

Killing Moon already said everything I wanted to, so refer to his post for my exact sentiments on this subject.

Exactly

Maybe it’s me, but I just find all of this a bit hypocritical. None of this was an issue with the previous PS2 vs. Xbox generation. In fact, the Sony gamers were touting the “gameplay matters, not graphics” mantra more than anyone else against the Xbox and GC camps (though the Cube fans were still not in a position to talk). Now suddenly because the PS3 is the more powerful console, we’ve swapped places proudly?

Fuck that, I stand by what I said years ago.
All of the visuals in the world won’t mean shit if the gameplay sucks ass. This goes for the Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft respectively.
Case in point, I don’t care HOW great Killzone 2 looks (okay, maybe I do)…if you still have context sensitive gun-butts, slipshod default AI, below competition par multiplayer and can’t jump manually, the game will suck.

Pretty pictures don’t make games. Gameplay makes games.
Graphics are the byproduct; secondary and should always be seen that way if you ask me. Approaching it the other way around most of the time is a casual gamer’s perspective, not a hardcore gamer’s.

‘nuff said.

[cpiasminc]

Because there are things that shouldn't be said on a forum. There are things which are not your right to do. There are things which are just plain stupid, and being oblivious to that is not an excuse, especially not when we have this thing called the 'Internet.' It takes a big message to actually get that point across, as has been said a few times already. What people need to pay attention to is not the way the accusations are couched, but the fact that chances are that those accusations are accurate especially if you were to look at yourself. The rhetoric is simply there to impress upon you that it demands notice.

If that means you have to wallow in your guilt and feel dejected, well good. If it means you choose to remain in denial, well, that's your own fault. If it means you have some knee-jerk reaction that tries to refute everything on entirely the wrong fronts, well then I welcome your aimless and erroneous rebuttals. If you're bothered by the wording, well, tough -- you asked for it.

I'm ready to say that pretty much none of the common visitors to the site whose only exposure has been via the front page articles actually understood anything.

[Kensaki]

Sad.

This forum has devolved to a lets worship Cpi cause he tells us we are idiots and opposed to John Carmack have no working brain cells. Sure I understand what you are getting at but the way you say it says to much about you and how you precieve others. Sorry but people who support you should take a good look in the mirror and ask if they are willing to go on the crusade of a bitter man on the internet.

I'm outta here hope people have cleaned up their act if I ever return.

[Viper]

Bye Kensaki.

Doubt you'll read this but people tend to speak fondly of those that are correct and bring truth. For you to depart based on just that.....perhaps it is YOU that needs a glance in the mirror.

Hope you come back that. Because that means you took a good look and realized Cpi is speaking the truth. One that sorely needed to be said.

[CreativeWriter]

First, let me apologize for any typos. I'm pounding out words with my sheep's hooves (/joking).

I have to renew my objection to the tone you've taken, CPI. I don't have much disagreement with your general points about graphics, fanboyism, or sound-bite selective reading, though your tone is awfully authoritarian about our preferences... One might be tempted to dismiss your argument outright as elitist. I do not, however, believe bully name-calling encourages the kind of high-minded discussion you've professed to promote, and I'll try not to stoop to it here.

These "shock" tactics, the excuse that "sheeple" won't listen to your reasoned arguments, are the last resort of the inarticulate (notice, you are not inarticulate; you have merely chosen the approach of those who are). For Ann Coulter, her political opponents must be "godless" or "faggots." Shocking for sure--makes people buy her books--yet most agree this is hollow, ad hominem, and ultimately cowardly rhetoric. Moreover, there's no need for you to lower yourself to this level, since your knowledge is extensive and you appear to be able to inform as easily as condescend.

My conclusion is that you may simply enjoy brow-beating those you see as uneducated. Like the mean-spirited professor, specialized knowledge allows you a sense of superiority. Maybe we are inferior, with respect to knowledge of gaming systems, their architecture, and software design, but many of us (here at PSInext) are professional adults who (if you get to know us) inspire a kind of begrudging respect.

The internet, by its anonymous nature, encourages grouping us into blanket categories (fanboys, sheep, losers, etc), but this is a mistake underestimating our capacity to learn. Engage us (me) and we will respond. We see it time and time again on forums like this one and B3D. A new user shows up, keeps his head down, and learns. The new initiate relies on reliable posters (like you) to inform him. If he is mistaken or under a false impression, it is because those in the know have failed to educate him properly (or he has failed to take an interest in bettering himself... occasionally he is simply not curious about the industry, merely wishes to chat--and that's fine, too, as far as I'm concerned). If you scare him away, short-circuiting the learning curve, you've lost a potentially valuable poster and one less *click* for the site. This is why your tone is detrimental to our community's long-term goals.

To engage your argument directly: we might argue that it's the fault of those who are professionals in this industry that misconceptions exist. Can we expect casual forum browsers to filter through three powerful companies' PR machines, let alone average consumers getting their purchasing advice from advertisements or store-employees? Most of the misconceptions you've highlighted are the products of the big three's PR mistakes, boasts, or deceptions. As someone who makes his living at (what I presume) is a large company, your position is naturally favorable/kind to the interests of companies. For me, an outsider, what you've labeled "PR spin" sounds a lot like deception and Machiavellian, anti-consumer scheming. You might say, "But companies are nothing more than the people who work for them. To mistrust them is to fundamentally mistrust people." This is a fine debate at the heart of critiques of capitalism, yet I will contend that a company has a kind of perverse mandate that subjugates all else to the bottom line. Individuals will behave oddly, without compassion when they feel the pressure of profit (from shareholders, bosses, etc). That we attempt to protect ourselves from them is only natural. I don't think you disagree, since you suggest we become discerning readers of news. Why then should game developers, the very creators of the products the PR-men will later "spin" be above our suspicion? Why shouldn't I fear that product-X is made by a company hoping to maximize profit by spending as little time/effort on game development as possible? Square for me your mistrust of media (who are cynically seeking readership as you point out) and your implicit trust of game developers (good people trying their best at their jobs) who function as one arm (or perhaps the hand is the better metaphor) of the corporate entity.

On the state of the forum: if we had more posts (active involvement) from people like CPI, the forum would look much different. We know this because the forum did attract a different clientèle at one point. When I migrated here in 2005 the forum had a much larger tech focus (and I kept my mouth shut, knowing next to nothing about anything we were discussing). You can find this atmosphere in some of the forums over at B3D if you miss it. In the meantime, our forum has become more welcoming to newcomers, more inclusive, and more democratic. This is troubling if you mistrust democracy (and certainly I do, since it can just as easily err as other organizational forms). Yet the changes have been on the whole positive for the forum. They have provided E-mpire with a soapbox from which to reach a wider group of listeners. I'm sure this has had an impact on the site's ability to pay for webhosting (I hope!). It's also made us more of a community in the fullest sense. We have regulars, lurkers, interlopers, and a real need for moderators. While these changes have caused frustration for some of the die-hard members, we wouldn't have Frosty and his vid-skills or the E3 coverage from Wounding, etc, without them. We wouldn't have MILR's vexing/discussion provoking "graphics whoring" (okay, we probably would). We've lost frequent contributions from XBD and some of the other techies, but we've gained a wider audience. We have a greater opportunity, which is why the tone we take with the uninitiated is so vital...

And we come full circle to tone: I also wonder whether your vision of what a general purpose PS3 forum should be is different from my own. I admit, I would be frustrated reading a forum that concerned my profession that spread misconceptions. I would be angry and would want very dearly to "fix" the problems I saw, so that my profession were better understood and respected. This is all well and good. More power to you.

I'm certainly willing to concede I might be mistaken (on any subject, really), but speaking to me as if I were a child or some kind of sub-human is only going to make me ill-humored. Maybe someone like me (an academic and writer) isn't your target audience, but if your goal is to educate, then I am certain this is the wrong pedagogical approach. Demeaning your "students" (to speak in metaphor) will only engender resentment. We're here to learn (from you, no less, an awesome responsibility). This desire (on our part) to improve our understanding of gaming/the industry is no small commitment, one we can revoke. Your fragile industry (and this developing community) needs us (the less educated), no matter how misguided we are. It is not our fault we are ill-informed. You were, too, at some time in the distant past. Teach us, but be kind about it, or we'll go read Harry Potter.

If, on the other hand, you hope to entertain, to draw short-term hits to E-mpire, then you've taken the right bent.

[GTShotoKen]

Amazing post Creative Writer (it's definitely essay quality).

I very much agree with your thoughts and glad you took the time to write them out so clearly and concisely. :)

[Applefiend]

I think it comes down to this. I make jokes that backfire and fall flat too, usually about 4-5 times a day. I think as far as jokes that fall flat cpi's one is as big a whopper as I've ever seen. I usually don't have all the admins of a site rally round and defend my unfunny joke in 10 page threads.

And nor would I expect to, as a non PS3 developer I'm less valuable to the forum. I actually pretty much agree with everything said in the article, it's the tone. Not funny, pretty condescending. I'm sure future articles will be better. Practice anything, you'll get better. You have a firm grasp of the subject, it's the writing style we're questioning.

You know I think if we had tea with Einstein he wouldn't start calling us or anyone else idiots because we didn't know this or that thing about relativity. Also Einstein was wrong about so much in his career, and he was a brighter spark than any of us on the forum ever will be. It's because he was a great soul as well as a great physicist. Worth considering.

And this is the last on this subject you'll get out of me. Although I will be making a poor joke about the Holocaust about 6pm in the general forum, expect you all there...

[Viper]

I usually don't have all the admins of a site rally round and defend my unfunny joke in 10 page threads.

And nor would I expect to, as a non PS3 developer I'm less valuable to the forum.

Hey now. I take offense to that. I give value to each of you equally. I may not have defended you personally over anything but I've defended other regular members just the same.

I put my voice behind Cpi not because of his stature in the industry but because of the message he speaks. Hell, I write a long post that received 10 pages too and what tone was used? The same.

i understood where he was coming from. You can say politely, "Everyone stop being so gullible" and no one will listen. Say it 20 times and you start to realize the only way to get their attention is pull back and bitch slap the hell out of them.

If they can't look beyond the tone and get the message, then it validates the very argument he's harping on.

[Applefiend]

There are no jokes that need explaining. Just good ones and bad ones. There are no jokes only smart people get that need explaining. Just good ones, and bad ones. If the joke needs explaining, it wasn't funny.

I can understand and agree with the message, and still don't like the tone of the article. They're separate things.

Now I really got to go out...! Seeya! By all means keep making bad jokes.... Write more articles that work as pieces of writing from experts to lay persons.

And frankly I've been thinking of the correct tone for my response to this article for a week, no wonder my taxes are late....

[CreativeWriter]

If they can't look beyond the tone and get the message, then it validates the very argument he's harping on.

Very smart people have written books about form (in this case style) affecting content. De-linking them when it suits us is convenient reasoning. Everyone admits the style of the US Constitution has real, significant impact on its meaning. An entire jurisprudence is based on interpreting that style (a comma here, a word choice there). If your message is more important than your form then it's your responsibility to make your form as unobtrusive as possible. If we can't look beyond tone to meaning, it's because tone distracts and obscures meaning--fish beneath muddy surface water.

[GTShotoKen]

If they can't look beyond the tone and get the message, then it validates the very argument he's harping on.

....

Well if people can't get his message then he screwed up to put it bluntly.

I mean was there a reason to write the article if its intended audience isn't gonna read it?

If he turned away his audience from getting a valuable message because he wanted to vent his frustration then that's on him. CPI vented his frustration, but did it accomplish anything?

This doesn't have to do with my personal thoughts more than it deals with logic.

I guess it would be better to hear from the author himself if he accomplished anything?

Edit: Now I sound overly negative myself don't I :lol:

[Applefiend]

Not a bad idea actually, might disappear for a couple of weeks too until it all blows over. Forum isn't the usual oasis of sanity at the moment, everyone's tense, insulted, and on edge. Me especially.

Cya later groovy f*ck*rs, enjoy the Heavenly Sword/Ratchet demos. I'm always on AIM and PS Net.

*waves*

[Smokey]

*waves back Devestated* :(

[Fazares]

Sad.

This forum has devolved to a lets worship Cpi cause he tells us we are idiots and opposed to John Carmack have no working brain cells. Sure I understand what you are getting at but the way you say it says to much about you and how you precieve others. Sorry but people who support you should take a good look in the mirror and ask if they are willing to go on the crusade of a bitter man on the internet.

I'm outta here hope people have cleaned up their act if I ever return.
u shouldnt abandon this forum just because most people here worships cpiasminc...

[yoshaw]

C'mon apple. You're not serious, are you? ... jeez :(

Anyone heard, "With power comes responsibility!"

What a joke, yea?

Imagine one day that ...

US president recklessly attacking other countries because no one is intelligent enough to accept democracy or what the US wants. If US says someone/country is a terrorist. He IS a terrorist period.

Wait a minute. We don't have to imagine that coz it's already happening. Not surprising to see all that above emulated on forums and its power users. What the bastards like Bush don't realize is they end up hurting the regular folks just as much as the ones they are after.

[Killing Moon]

@Hisham: I owned all 3 consoles last gen and I liked my PS2 a lot more than the other two knowing well that it was the least powerful of the three.

The way I saw it was like this:

The consoles are both artists. Xbox has the best tools (I strictly mean hardware. Not development tools). PS2 doesn't have the tools that the xbox has, but is a much better artist.

Graphically, I found many xbox games to be very similar on aesthetics and art direction aswell as gameplay. As a result I found that alot of games on that system were boring and uncreative. Sure PS2 games built from the ground up didn't look as good as the games built from the ground up on xbox, but they were very distinguishable and devs did a lot of neat tricks to make the games look good. Now, graphics, in my opinion, are important if the devs use it effectively such as to convey something. The gameplay obviously is the most important aspect of any game. But I don't see anything wrong in wanting both awesome graphics and gameplay, there is no direct corellation that good graphics and production values will mean shitty gameplay.

Now imagine what the PS3 can deliver now that it has the better tools. Hell, look at some of the games already released and the new games coming out over the next 6 to10 months. Not only do they look good, but they look like they will be awesome and fun to play.

I hope I'm making sense. I'm not exactly in a very good mood to post properly now. I'm tired.
Well said.
I agree with many of these points.

[Viper]

Very smart people have written books about form (in this case style) affecting content. De-linking them when it suits us is convenient reasoning. Everyone admits the style of the US Constitution has real, significant impact on its meaning. An entire jurisprudence is based on interpreting that style (a comma here, a word choice there). If your message is more important than your form then it's your responsibility to make your form as unobtrusive as possible. If we can't look beyond tone to meaning, it's because tone distracts and obscures meaning--fish beneath muddy surface water.

First off, the difference in the two pieces needs largely be understood. The DoI was not meant to be comedic or satirical at all as opposed to Cpi's article at least to some degree. Perhaps a better comparison would be another article with the same angle in mind.

Imagine for a moment that no one was reading the DoI once published (kinda of a sad fact anyway when you think about it) so they publish again, and again, and again and even with their clarity of tone and undeniable purpose it was still unread. Eventually Thomas is going to get pissed and yell to everyone, "Hey, the crown sucks. Let's start our own nation."

Perhaps we'd have a very different country today had that been an actual event but case in point be that after so many times of politely trying to prove fact, make sense, logic and reason only to fall on deaf ears, one goes to greater length to be heard and make the people listen.



Apple, bad analogy. Jokes require an explanation for various peoples because they can have connotations that they don't relate to at all. For example, British humor.

Here's a way to mix both for you. The tone of the article and jokes. Ever see a stand up comedian insult the audience? Do they actually feel insulted or laugh because they pay more attention to the meaning behind it?

[Viper]

C'mon apple. You're not serious, are you? ... jeez :(

Anyone heard, "With power comes responsibility!"

What a joke, yea?

Imagine one day that ...

US president recklessly attacking other countries because no one is intelligent enough to accept democracy or what the US wants. If US says someone/country is a terrorist. He IS a terrorist period.

Wait a minute. We don't have to imagine that coz it's already happening. Not surprising to see all that above emulated on forums and its power users. What the bastards like Bush don't realize is they end up hurting the regular folks just as much as the ones they are after.
Yosh, what are you getting at?

[GTShotoKen]

Yeah...who said that our president is in Iraq to spread democracy in the first place?!!!! :lol:

[yoshaw]

Yosh, what are you getting at?

I'm just in a royally bad mood up there. Sorry I went ahead generalizing everyone. I'll leave the thread in peace.

[cpiasminc]

I have to renew my objection to the tone you've taken, CPI. I don't have much disagreement with your general points about graphics, fanboyism, or sound-bite selective reading, though your tone is awfully authoritarian about our preferences...
Preferences aren't the problem. It's being able to put them aside. If everybody on this board were under the age of 12, I would have fewer problems with it -- the bar for maturity would be rock bottom anyway.

One might be tempted to dismiss your argument outright as elitist.
...which wouldn't entirely be untrue.

Moreover, there's no need for you to lower yourself to this level, since your knowledge is extensive and you appear to be able to inform as easily as condescend.
I've found in my past history as a TA and as a guest lecturer and even while I was in middle school teaching math classes, I've found that I do enjoy the straightforward lecturing side of things, but I have very little patience for those who don't listen.

As I said in the other thread, I've done the straightforward teaching bit, but after several times with no effect, I've just given up. If you can't listen, then I will not pull any punches any longer and I will tell you how worthless your life is.

Though to be fair, telling someone to roll over and die doesn't mean a whole lot coming from me of all people.

The internet, by its anonymous nature, encourages grouping us into blanket categories (fanboys, sheep, losers, etc), but this is a mistake underestimating our capacity to learn. Engage us (me) and we will respond.
I might have agreed with you on that before the web (especially "web 2.0"), or back when video games (especially PC games) were still very much a hobbyist market. I can't ever again.

We see it time and time again on forums like this one and B3D.
Trying to use this board and B3D as a ray of hope is a little misguided to me -- it's like saying that people on aceshardware tend to know what they're talking about, and therefore Youtube isn't full of idiotic nonsense. I actually relied on a lot of examples that go beyond this board and B3D and generalize across the community. In fact, this is one case where I would not be opposed to the idea of people spreading links to these articles on other boards to see what sort of reaction results (though I guess it might be preferable to wait for the final part).

This is why your tone is detrimental to our community's long-term goals.
If, for even a second, I believed that the overall gaming community's long-term goals actually involved being more knowledgeable or maturing as people, I might have agreed that that's actually a bad thing. I don't think that's the case, however, so I say, "good."

Can we expect casual forum browsers to filter through three powerful companies' PR machines, let alone average consumers getting their purchasing advice from advertisements or store-employees?
If you care enough to actually be looking at the PR and looking up all the shpiel and searching for information all the time, then there's no excuse not to be able to do that. People who don't do that will anyway be less affected by it, and will be more casual gamers by comparison anyway. But they're not the ones spouting blockheaded banalities every day and failing to read thoroughly. In turn, if people aren't capable of processing information and filtering through the crap, then at least be aware of that, and just stay away, just don't give any of it a second thought. Know your limits -- go look at screenshots and videos if you like, but don't try to leap out of your cradle until you're big enough.

For me, an outsider, what you've labeled "PR spin" sounds a lot like deception and Machiavellian, anti-consumer scheming.
I just separated what I consider "spin" and what I consider "misleading" or "lying" or "deceiving." Whereas lying or misleading tends to be about saying something that actually misleads people (e.g. "1/1.8 TFLOPS"), I would characterize spin as an effort *not* to say something (e.g. Peter Moore).

You might say, "But companies are nothing more than the people who work for them. To mistrust them is to fundamentally mistrust people." This is a fine debate at the heart of critiques of capitalism, yet I will contend that a company has a kind of perverse mandate that subjugates all else to the bottom line.
I actually would have said something closer to your contention than the former. And that's exactly why there are evil faces irrespective of the individuals.

Why then should game developers, the very creators of the products the PR-men will later "spin" be above our suspicion? Why shouldn't I fear that product-X is made by a company hoping to maximize profit by spending as little time/effort on game development as possible? Square for me your mistrust of media (who are cynically seeking readership as you point out) and your implicit trust of game developers (good people trying their best at their jobs) who function as one arm (or perhaps the hand is the better metaphor) of the corporate entity.
I get into part of this in part 3, but the fact is that developers are at a position which is really disconnected from that for the most part. The notion that it's all one body is absolutely untrue. Sure, developers have walls placed around them based on market dynamics and sellability and such (and in turn, that affects how they have to approach their ideas), but that's pretty much the extent of developer involvement with the "face" of the industry. While I agree that this is a bad thing in the sense that the real creators are faceless to the people who buy the product (and some people are trying to change this), it also means that their concerns can remain very "internal."

To give you an analogy, let's say you're talking about big oil. Now can you say that big oil companies are greedy and evil? But to extend, can you say that the people operating the machines in a refinery are part of that greed and evil? Can you say that Bush's continual sending of troops to the Middle East is proving to be a stupid effort? If you can, can you also say that the troops themselves are a huge bunch of idiots?

I think it comes down to this. I make jokes that backfire and fall flat too, usually about 4-5 times a day. I think as far as jokes that fall flat cpi's one is as big a whopper as I've ever seen.
Who said anything about it being a joke? It's not cleanly dead serious, but by no means was it ever close to being a joke.

You know I think if we had tea with Einstein he wouldn't start calling us or anyone else idiots because we didn't know this or that thing about relativity.
Mmmm... not about relativity, certainly, but as far as not looking upon the average person as mind-numbingly stupid to the point of inducing one to vomit, you'd be surprised. The thing that makes you think otherwise is that unlike the typical physicist, Einstein was also a public figure.

[KRA]

could someone tell me how worthless my life is.
or is it wrong thread ?!

[LaLiLuLeLo]

No you came to the right place. Loser.

[KRA]

No you came to the right place. Loser.

ohh thanks.
i love these kind of threads.
could you spank me too ? :)

[curryking1]

Does no one still get this???

Are people on this forum that ridiculous, that stupid? I can't even believe I compared some of you to dumber than the average bear. I should've dimmed that down a shade for sure.

Learn how to read people, and learn how to understand and comprehend what you read. Honestly, what the crap is wrong with some of you? Especially the guy who's like 'O look at me everyone worships Cpi.' Man, talk about stupid, seriously.

And especially you cliffbo, what the hell? Why are you supporting MILR? And even, of course, more especially MILR, you have to learn how to ***king read.

Ok to explain this to the feeble minded...

MILR's rebuttle has nothing to do with the first claim. Nothing. Absolutely and positively nothing.

This is what Cpi said. Read this, understand it, and then finally continue.

Cpi says 'graphics are often used by the gaming industry, rightfully or wrongfully so, as a measuring stick to compare games and how much they have advanced or how great they are compared to others.'

Then out of nowhere, absolutely nowhere, MILR criticizes Cpi, very wrongfully, for claiming that Cpi has said it is wrong to like graphics over any other part of a game.

Which is not at all what was said in the first place.

For once and for all, everyone who is supporting MILR's for his rebuttle and to make stupid claims about other members on the board that actually have half a brain at least try and find out why that makes zero sense.

ZERO SENSE.

Some people are severely overcomplicating what is actually happening here, there's not much else other than this: MILR misreading, misjudging and wrongfully accusing someone of having some deranged idea because his own misconfigured brain cannot comprehend anything other than black or white so he just pasted some opposing idea of his own as being Cpi's, which some of you have really eaten up for whatever reason. This is just really, really dumb as a rebuttle to the main idea of the first part of Cpi's article.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

No I don't swing that way and that's just entirely innapropriate.

Felt like changing the thread title. Just for kicks. For no good reason.

[VG Aficionado]

And the grammar was wrong.

[Steemo]

Nevermind.

[Jay Gee]

Am I going nuts, or is the thread title changing?

[GTAce]

Both..... :-p

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Proof that this doesn't really apply to me.. F.E.A.R. looks like complete ass on PS3, but I love the shhh.. out of it because it's just so fun to play. Graphics are nice, but they aren't the defining factor of videogames for me.

Well thanks for sharing that with us, because we really cared.

[OmniCloud]

It is weird if one testicle is bigger than the other:shrug:

[cpiasminc]

ohh thanks.
i love these kind of threads.
could you spank me too ? :)

It is weird if one testicle is bigger than the other:shrug:
o____O ...........................

Urge to kill indiscriminately... rising...
Is there some underlying desire that people have to try and compel me to strangle them? I'm not against the idea myself, but it'd be all the better if everybody's happy about it.

WTH does any of this have to do with anything?

[woundingchaney]

Enough of the madhouse mentality guys.

[Viper]

Can we move back on topic a bit?

[cpiasminc]

...graphics are often used by the gaming industry...
While you got that little scream out accurately for the most part, I just have to add a little note on what appears to have been a slip... "by" the "industry"? It was more so about the public and people of similar mental stature (or complete lack thereof) -- though it is true that industry PR will of course exploit anything they can say about graphics since nobody cares about anything else.

The other point in part 1 was about the sorts of things they should be expecting over the course of this generation, which may not be amazingly overwhelming on the graphics side (at least not to the extent that people would tend to think given the results on PS2). Which interestingly enough, was never really commented on (except for MILR refuting on the assumption that I was saying that graphics would not improve significantly at all).

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Thank you curry king. Someone gets it.

[kaphwan]

Is this just what it looks like to me, or are people interpreting an article maining about commenting on that which you know shit all (here, the way games are developed from a technical standpoint and the problems that still make devs' jobs very difficult) as an article about how you aren't allowed to care about graphics?

Edit: Sorry, I couldn't think of a less awkward way to phrase that.

[Viper]

Um...yes.

[Danji]

Hooray! Can we close this yet?

[Smokey]

Yeah...who said that our president is in Iraq to spread democracy in the first place?!!!! :lol:

ya hes there to protect OIL ;)

[Danji]

ya hes there to protect OIL ;)

He's just a fan...of his paycheck. Which says "Middle eastern oil supply" on it.

[Khaos]

Okay, guys, this isn't the political theories thread. ;-]

[Viper]

The two threads have become one and the same so I've merged them together to finalize that point.

Enough political talk.

[cpiasminc]

Is this just what it looks like to me, or are people interpreting an article maining about commenting on that which you know shit all (here, the way games are developed from a technical standpoint and the problems that still make devs' jobs very difficult) as an article about how you aren't allowed to care about graphics?
Well, given the nature of things brought up in part 2, I guess you could say the reaction to part 1 was to be expected. No one was able to pick up on a single thing except for the words they had the strongest emotional attachment to, thereby ignoring everything else. They just saw "graphics", "measuring", and "idiot", and thought, "well it must be that he's attacking graphics whore-ism! It couldn't possibly be anything else."

I'm reminded of how the creature actually argued that it didn't need to read any part of a game design book that our lead lent to it... and the creature's excuse? Approximately, "In any given book or article, there are only a handful of words in the entire thing that are really important. So it's better not to bother with it at all." Perhaps I should have been outright cruel and associated peoples intelligence with that of the creature.

[OmniCloud]

.....................

[Danji]

To be honest, the only reason why I made the political crack was to get this (the "not an idiot" thread) to end. I was tired of it not being closed due to it being pointless so I figured I would help carry it further into the unacceptable zone.

Merging was not a good idea. It only vindicates that level of self-importantism. (not a real word, deal)

Part Three looks good though, can't wait for it to come out.

[cliffbo]

To be honest, the only reason why I made the political crack was to get this (the "not an idiot" thread) to end. I was tired of it not being closed due to it being pointless so I figured I would help carry it further into the unacceptable zone.

Merging was not a good idea. It only vindicates that level of self-importantism. (not a real word, deal)

Part Three looks good though, can't wait for it to come out.

what are you saying here? are you suggesting that MILRs thread was self-important, but CPIs is okay? why don't you just make this forum for moderaters and your closest friends... don't mind us, we just post here.

[OmniCloud]

What a thread--seems to me that the argument is less about the actual articles, and more about users correcting each other:shrug:

Grow up...

Lighten up...

Realize that we all share common interest and get over disagreements...

Just reading over the post--it's like a bunch of bickering school girlies...come now

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Which is why I didn't get involved.

[Viper]

Danji, I merged them because MILR's thread was nothing more than a reply to this one and the very notion he was harping on was already being discussed here.

The "self-importantism" has me lost so I don't know what you're insinuating there.



Part 3 will be up today.

[curryking1]

Just felt like putting some more 2 cents in :P

No offense to Cpi, but maybe you should retry writing these articles another time and with a better tone. And maybe shorter :P

And to the moderators, instantly lock a new thread that was replying to another thread and that made no sense in the first place. It should have been made clear to MILR right away why his response was so stupid and where he should've done it.

And to cliffbo, this thread Why you are an idiot was not to glorify the article, but to discuss it. Which everyone should have done if they had anything at all to say about the frigging thing.

And for the second time cliffbo, MILR's response made zero sense, seriously. It didn't even have anything to do with the first article. MILR again proved how much of an ignoramus some people can act like.

[cpiasminc]

No offense to Cpi, but maybe you should retry writing these articles another time and with a better tone. And maybe shorter :P
Irrespective of how meanly put it came out, I don't think there will ever be a way of saying these sorts of things nicely -- and I don't think it's worth trying, because you really can't impress anything on people by coddling them for their shortcomings.

As for the shorter part... ummm... the current state of it actually IS the short version. When I was originally working on it, it worked out to be just around 45 pages, and I cut it down to about 11 1/2 pages (set up as 3 parts) for the final draft. Suffice to say, that includes the boorish stuff as well, though it does trail off towards the end (unfortunately). It wouldn't be off to say that what you've seen (and will see in part 3) is just the tip of the iceberg as to the reality.

And to cliffbo, this thread Why you are an idiot was not to glorify the article, but to discuss it. Which everyone should have done if they had anything at all to say about the frigging thing.
I also don't get the self-importance part. MILR was starting a thread shouting from the top of a mountain proclaiming his god-given right to be a graphics whore. The article itself had nothing whatsoever to do with me. If he'd said something about elitist, condescending, hateful, or dripping with unbridled disdain, then that would have been reasonable.

[Viper]

Part 3 is up and waiting for the masses to consume.

Oh, and be sure to RTFA.

http://psinsider.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=4&m_articles_articleid=892

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Part 3 is up and waiting for the masses to consume.



http://psinsider.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=4&m_articles_articleid=892

And take personally and completely miss the point on.:whip:

[Viper]

And take personally and completely miss the point on.:whip:

I edited my post.

[curryking1]

RTFA is read the ***king article right?

[Viper]

Correct.

[kaphwan]

So another nice article, and I'm guessing the running theme here is the gaping differences between how developing games actually happens and what people seem to think it is. With a bit of flavoring to the tune of how retarded people are when they have no idea but keep yelling on the internet.

That makes it all the funnier for when people log in, read the first and second line then accuse cpi of talking out of his ass. (He's a developer! He knows this!)

[Generosity of God]

great articles Cpi. it feels good being enlightened on the various points raised. my only problem now is i tend to forget things easily. but i have come away with the mindset of thinking before speaking about subjects i have no real knowledge of.

[jaxmkii]

maybe i should insult CPi for not understanding the detailed workings of Audi's DSG when ever he make's a half educated comment in the auto forums...

I know its fusturating CPi there is alot of feverish half educated fanboyism going on but most of us are not pros in the field. we make comments based on the best info we can find, and with all the misleding info and straight up BS sometimes even the most levelheaded members can make the wrong asumption.

you realy should avoid looking down so heavely on others because i could go on for days about the auto industry. but i find solice in knowing thats why i get payed the big bucks.

[cpiasminc]

maybe i should insult CPi for not understanding the detailed workings of Audi's DSG when ever he make's a half educated comment in the auto forums...
Feel free the next time I go on about thermodynamic efficiency (which is kind of a pet peeve for me). I don't recall the last time I went on about Audi's DSG, but I guess that doesn't matter.

That said, the automotive community is full of idiots and zealots all the same, so you can't tell me that people who proudly proclaim nonsense about how "if you can't lift the front tires off the ground, then you're not fast" or that having a hood scoop the size of a sheepdog "makes all the difference" don't deserve to have their necks wrung a thousand times over.

I know its fusturating CPi there is alot of feverish half educated fanboyism going on but most of us are not pros in the field.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "half-educated"... that is actually pretty rare, and the almost-halfway-decent ideas that people might have posted at some point are invariably the sorts of things that don't require any sort of "educating" to arrive at.

Being mature about it means knowing when to stop, when to put something aside, when to concede, when to rebut, and what your limits are in doing so. Personally, I find that the fact that fanboys exist who are older than 10 years of age is pretty inexcusable as it is.

we make comments based on the best info we can find
I wouldn't say that either. Part 2 was mainly about this, but it tends to be more accurate to say that people make comments based only on the info they want to find. They will only scream based on the info they care about (or worry about, whichever the case may be). Nothing else ever comes up. There's a hell of a lot people miss in the very same sources they themselves cite, and sometimes, it's not even the written word -- even on video interviews, no one pays attention long enough to catch more than the one sentence they give a damn about.

and with all the misleding info and straight up BS sometimes even the most levelheaded members can make the wrong asumption.
Now here's a little something that makes me laugh. How is it that people can say all this about misleading info and BS everywhere and still not bother to read with a discerning eye? How is it that you can be so sure that what you find is going to be missing or hiding something, and yet still proceed to draw assumptions from it, further assuming that those assumptions are valid? You can't tell me for even a second that that's levelheaded.

The only assumption you should be making is that the best info you can find inherently sucks. And it only sucks more when you hear it from someone else.

[Segitz]

maybe i should insult CPi for not understanding the detailed workings of Audi's DSG when ever he make's a half educated comment in the auto forums...


Hehe, but "Audis" DSG was developed by Volkswagen (owner of Audi :P)

[lips]

First of all, we have to accept that for many multi-platform next-gen developers right now, the most likely candidate for the “lead” platform is the Xbox 360. Why? Because it was on the market a year earlier

Probably will not mean too much in the very near future.

[cpiasminc]

Probably will not mean too much in the very near future.
True. It's actually much more likely to turn into segmented amalgams like I mentioned a few sentences afterwards. Modularization with specific subsystems built around certain platforms (also bearing in mind that some modules will not at all have a "lead" platform -- e.g. scripting systems, for instance, are intended to be platform-agnostic) are likely to become the norm.

That kind of modularization is also important for maintainability of a codebase, and that makes no difference whether you're on 3rd-party multiplatform titles or 1st-party exclusives.

[lips]

do you think it is possible? Has such a thing ever been tried, on a large scale?

also: I don't think ms would want to be told: we can also release said game on xbox 360, minus all physics. You can only tell ms 'our game will be best on 360 for these reasons' to get their serious attention.

[Applefiend]

Personally, I find that the fact that fanboys exist who are older than 10 years of age is pretty inexcusable as it is..

I hear there are these people called "Football fans" who support and believe their team is better based on no empirical evidence. They're idiots, I wish they'd roll over and die....

<*Runs off for 2 weeks*>

[cliffbo]

i just want to clarify something here because it seems my name has been mentioned a couple of times above even though i have actually only made a couple of statements concerning this topic. i don't care what people post here at all, it's their view and who's to say i'm not wrong. what i take exception to is the suggestion that anything that is said out of ignorance automatically makes myself and others fanboys. that is nonsense. MILR made a valid point (in his usual longwinded way) take a look at the title of this thread and be honest. would I or anyone else have gotten away with a title like that? isn't it troll bating? to me graphics are not as important as gameplay/physics and AI, but i appreciate MILRs right to put it at the top of his list. that is not to say, however, that i won't at some point enter into a discussion on the matter and point out my perspective on it. the trouble with a lot of posters here isn't that they are IDIOTs, it's that they feel that if anyone has an 'opposing' viewpoint, they are 'in competition'. CPIs post has actually split this forum down the middle and i would have to say it was ill advised.

edit: i'm well aware that the three articles are not simply about graphics so please don't remind me again. i'm talking about forum ethics here, which is why i agreed with MILRs thread even though i don't necessarily agree with his premise.

[Smokey]

good post Cliffy :)

[Viper]

I hear there are these people called "Football fans" who support and believe their team is better based on no empirical evidence. They're idiots, I wish they'd roll over and die....

<*Runs off for 2 weeks*>

The difference is a localized emotional attachment for sports. A sports team is a representative of your city/school/region, etc.... They compete directly head to head with other teams.

Consoles do not represent you. Consoles do not physically battle each other on Sunday afternoons in the fall.

Granted, their are still millions of sports idiots who claim their team/player is best for no other purpose than it's the team/player they like most.



EDIT: Um, Cliff, who stated that making claims out of ignorance equates to fanboyism? Cpi said that was being an idiot, not a fanboy.

[cliffbo]

EDIT: Um, Cliff, who stated that making claims out of ignorance equates to fanboyism? Cpi said that was being an idiot, not a fanboy.

okay typed wrong word there lol. it's still a valid point though.

edit: why have we got a thread called 'why you are an idiot' in the PS3 section of this forum? is it in general gaming? is it in the 360 section? is it in the Nintendo section? why did Wounding decide to post it in the PS3 section when he is clearly more 360 centric. Why is it not in the Nintendo section Viper? the truth is there... be honest fellas, be honest.

[kaphwan]

Ooooh, Ooh! I can answer this one!

Because cpi wrote it for PSiNext?

[cliffbo]

Ooooh, Ooh! I can answer this one!

Because cpi wrote it for PSiNext?

exactly! like i said the answer is there... couldn't it have been posted in general fiction? but why do PS3 fans feel singled out... er... that's a difficult one isn't it. i don't give a monkeys ass, but lots of younger members do.

[curryking1]

That's true actually, it probably should've gone into General Gaming maybe.

[cliffbo]

the intention was to get just this reaction. seen it on other sites and now E-mpire are doing it.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

okay typed wrong word there lol. it's still a valid point though.

edit: why have we got a thread called 'why you are an idiot' in the PS3 section of this forum? is it in general gaming? is it in the 360 section? is it in the Nintendo section? why did Wounding decide to post it in the PS3 section when he is clearly more 360 centric. Why is it not in the Nintendo section Viper? the truth is there... be honest fellas, be honest.

Because.....that's where the majority of us all spend our time?

Oh, and I assure you it wasn't Cpi's intent to get a knee-jerk reaction out of everyone. I'm sure he had, as genius as he is, along with the rest of us, a faint, naive hope that the article would strike up some intelligent discussion and not everyone getting up in arms about it and pointing fingers at each other, and taking things personally. A reasonable person should have read the editorials, chuckled slightly, and went back to drinking his coffee/beer/soda/water and playing a video game.

[cliffbo]

come on fella, that is not the reason. take a look in general fiction and see how many threads should be here. it was posted because the poster wanted to say something to those that he dislikes. f**k sake fella, do you think we are all fools?

edit: i hate it when posters edit what i reply to in order to make it look as if i'm being unreasonable. it was naive to think that's what they would do

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Well clearly what I think is irrelevant, so I'll spare you my opinion.

[curryking1]

Because.....that's where the majority of us all spend our time?

But you can't do that and then take away the GTA thread and put that in Gen. Gaming. That's not very fair to justify on one hand that most of us spend our time in the PS3 section for one thread and not another.

[Steemo]

Well thanks for sharing that with us, because we really cared.

[cliffbo]

i do not like the direction this forum is taking at all

[Viper]

okay typed wrong word there lol. it's still a valid point though.

edit: why have we got a thread called 'why you are an idiot' in the PS3 section of this forum? is it in general gaming? is it in the 360 section? is it in the Nintendo section? why did Wounding decide to post it in the PS3 section when he is clearly more 360 centric. Why is it not in the Nintendo section Viper? the truth is there... be honest fellas, be honest.

Obviously it has nothing to do with the fact Cpi is a PSInsider writer and that that article was posted on PSInsider and prior to that it was discussed and edited in the PSInsider staff section and finally posted in the Sony section by a PSInsider moderator and staff writer.

[kaphwan]

exactly! like i said the answer is there... couldn't it have been posted in general fiction? but why do PS3 fans feel singled out... er... that's a difficult one isn't it. i don't give a monkeys ass, but lots of younger members do.

Don't be putting words in my mouth. Cpi works for PSiNext, the sole intention of my post was to point that out. Honestly, if you feel like you've been singled out and called an idiot, then remember that the best way to silence a critic is to prove them wrong.

[cliffbo]

Don't be putting words in my mouth. Cpi works for PSiNext, the sole intention of my post was to point that out. Honestly, if you feel like you've been singled out and called an idiot, then remember that the best way to silence a critic is to prove them wrong.

you know something i give up on some of you people. I don't feel singled out at all... jesus i left that back when i was a child. you know, some people can actually have concerns that don't relate directly to themselves. i'm just going to nip over to the 360 section and post a thread entitled 'why you were an idiot to buy a HD-DVD drive' i'm sure it will be welcome there

edit: you are 18 years old!!! lol... perhaps i should try patronage instead. that was a point above by the way, not a real intention.

[kaphwan]

PS3 fans feel singled out

if you feel like you've been singled out and called an idiot, then remember that the best way to silence a critic is to prove them wrong.

The words aren't all consecutive, so I bolded them for you. Hopefully what I meant in my post is apparent now. I mean, you managed to read my age on the side of my post, so this shouldn't be too much trouble.

As for the red, it indicates where I've written two different things that in context mean the same thing. In other words, the second sentence wasn't specifically to you, Cliffbo. It's to anybody who feels "singled out", as you said in your post.

[cliffbo]

i'm sorry for that then. :)

[curryking1]

Consecutive doesn't make sense there btw. Maybe you were looking for congruent or compatible or matching up or something lol. :P

[Viper]

i'm just going to nip over to the 360 section and post a thread entitled 'why you were an idiot to buy a HD-DVD drive'
So get on with it. If you can nail the points real well, do it.

Granted it would help if you worked in the optical media industry to back your claims a bit.

[cliffbo]

So get on with it. If you can nail the points real well, do it.

Granted it would help if you worked in the optical media industry to back your claims a bit.

I was just trying to make a point Viper and you know it. mods are supposed to modderate, not encourage this sort of thread regardless of whether it's a friend...

[kaphwan]

Consecutive doesn't make sense there btw. Maybe you were looking for congruent or compatible or matching up or something lol. :P

"feel", "singled" and "out" are not consecutive, in that they are not, as defined by The Australian Pocket Oxford Dictionary, "in an unbroken order".

[cliffbo]

"feel", "singled" and "out" are not consecutive, in that they are not, as defined by The Australian Pocket Oxford Dictionary, "in an unbroken order".

Curry is just playing fella ;)

[curryking1]

I still don't think this is a problem having at all to do with Cpi.

Maybe it was poorly conveyed or written or who knows, that's not for me to decide.

But still, he wrote an article for E-mpire.

And E-mpire posts topics for a lot of their articles on main pages. And these topics are meant to discuss the article, not to praise or lambast it.

The only problems that occurred I think is that..

1) Why this isn't in the General Gaming forum when other threads are, why is there a duality on that subject?

Why is this deemed appropriate for just the PS3 forum when it clearly addresses all forum visitors and it was justified that 'most of us are in this section,' and the GTA thread which saw much more viewership in the PS3 section was not deemed appropriate to stay?

2) Why did MILR's thread last so long? Why wasn't it locked right away? Are we encouraging threads as replies to other threads on the same freaking page? Why was he given that luxury or making such an absurd response and having his own thread about it for so long?

It lasted for days, it wasn't just minutes or hours like it should've been, it was days.

P.S. And again, I think a lot of this threads that overlap in subsections could be helped with mirroring one thread in multiple areas like I suggested in the suggestions subsection.

I think if E-mpire wants to move above and beyond in their service to their members, they would be willing to deliver that to us for threads like this one, and the GTA thread among others.

I think if E-mpire wishes to stay a great forum and to set it apart from other everyday and average forums a lot more attention will need to be paid to these three issues.

Someone better answer these questions or I will repeatedly post this.

P.P.S. Kap, I was just playing around lol. I was referring to 'PS3 fans' and 'you' as I think those were the words you were trying to relate to each other as being the subjects of each sentence.

[Viper]

1) Why this isn't in the General Gaming forum when other threads are, why is there a duality on that subject?

2) Why did MILR's thread last so long?

1. I gave a full answer. Talking about why it was posted here and not somewhere else ends right now.

2. We left it open to see where it would go and it basically was the same thing as this thread so I merged it.


As for the multi-platform issue, I'm still working on the details of that. We have a plan but it involves a lot of adjustments to our forum style sheets.

If you have any more complaints, take them to Suggestions and Feedback.

[cliffbo]

what is going on here Viper? i do not think that Curryking deserves such a dismissive attitude. he's certainly got a lot more patience than me and he's making a perfectly legitimate point. please think carefully about this, Viper, you could be alienating the very people you want posting here. at the moment this forum is creating cliques and that's not good for a community.

[Viper]

what is going on here Viper? i do not think that Curryking deserves such a dismissive attitude. he's certainly got a lot more patience than me and he's making a perfectly legitimate point. please think carefully about this, Viper, you could be alienating the very people you want posting here. at the moment this forum is creating cliques and that's not good for a community.

Someone better answer these questions or I will repeatedly post this.
That's why. He was quite adamant about demanding the answers. I gave them.

[cpiasminc]

do you think it is possible? Has such a thing ever been tried, on a large scale?
Outside of gaming, certainly. Within gaming, everybody tries, but doesn't quite get there due to all sorts of constraints (interdependencies galore).

That said, something like having one module kind of "leading" on the 360 and having another "leading" on the PS3 and having a couple of platform-agnostic modules and so on is not that far from what we're doing here.

also: I don't think ms would want to be told: we can also release said game on xbox 360, minus all physics. You can only tell ms 'our game will be best on 360 for these reasons' to get their serious attention.
Yeah, well, reality is always at odds with itself.

----------------------------------

BTW, cliffbo, I mentioned a few pages back, not that you would have noticed, that I had no qualms about the links to this article being spread elsewhere -- I simply preferred that people waited until all 3 parts were up. If you wanted to post them on some other forum, feel free.

It should be plainly obvious that the final straw that birthed this piece in the first place was just escalating idiocy right here on the PS3 forums. Just because you refuse to admit it or you shrug it off on the basis that "we're not the worst ones out there, so there's no fault in anything we did," that doesn't change that fact. Well, in any case, if you think some forums are a hell of a lot worse, then by all means, let them know. But for all the claiming that people here are "better" than those on a NeoGAF or something, you all certainly didn't show it in your reactions (and in that respect, it's sort of a blessing in disguise, not that I think anyone will see it that way). The reaction was more or less along the lines of what the more lowbrow childish-moron-dominated sites would have exhibited.

[cliffbo]

that's not the point i'm making CP. the point i'm making is that we have always had ridiculous comments on this forum and largely we (the posters and the heart of this forum) have dealt with it... sometimes in a less than diplomatic way, admittedly. what i take exception to are those that assume an affinity with your article (and of course yourself) in an attempt to put distance between themselves and the dubiousness of 'Idiocy'.

[Viper]

that's not the point i'm making CP. the point i'm making is that we have always had ridiculous comments on this forum and largely we (the posters and the heart of this forum) have dealt with it... sometimes in a less than diplomatic way, admittedly. what i take exception to are those that assume an affinity with your article (and of course yourself) in an attempt to put distance between themselves and the dubiousness of 'Idiocy'.

Has the thought never crossed your mind that perhaps we're admitting quilt outright by praising the article?

Here you are assuming we're taking an elitist angle by allying ourselves with Cpi and not once have you considered the reason behind that is because we accept he is correct.

No wonder you're so bent out of shape on this. We've all made a fanboyish claim at some time or another or perpetuated an idea we knew so little about and assumed so much in its regard.

[cliffbo]

Has the thought never crossed your mind that perhaps we're admitting quilt outright by praising the article?

Here you are assuming we're taking an elitist angle by allying ourselves with Cpi and not once have you considered the reason behind that is because we accept he is correct.

No wonder you're so bent out of shape on this. We've all made a fanboyish claim at some time or another or perpetuated an idea we knew so little about and assumed so much in its regard.

perhaps i'm not 'bent out of shape' Viper, perhaps i'm happily debating something here. i know nothing about programming at all and often put my foot in my mouth, but do i deserve the title 'idiot'? i could go through that article by CP and really do a number on it from a writing perspective... does that give me the right to call CP an idiot? what amazes me is the fact that soooo many people have complained about this thread and yet it is supposedly the 'truth' without exception.

[Viper]

Their complaints are aimed at the tone used, not the content itself.

Even you just admitted you've made comments that were incorrect and now you're questioning why I claim what he speaks is truthful? Isn't that being hypocritical?

Well, you could call him an idiot if you see him saying something idiotic but the difference is you'd be singling out an individual and not a group as he did.

[cliffbo]

Their complaints are aimed at the tone used, not the content itself.

Even you just admitted you've made comments that were incorrect and now you're questioning why I claim what he speaks is truthful? Isn't that being hypocritical?

Well, you could call him an idiot if you see him saying something idiotic but the difference is you'd be singling out an individual and not a group as he did.

it is you who are overlooking the obvious in order to justify the disaster this thread is, just like with your thread on fanboys whining about the bad press Sony are getting, but oh yes, we were just silly little fanboy idiots with that too. it was a good job you could join in with the Killzone madness, or you may well have lost a few friends with that thread too. look at yourselves, not myself or others.

[cpiasminc]

what i take exception to are those that assume an affinity with your article (and of course yourself) in an attempt to put distance between themselves and the dubiousness of 'Idiocy'.
That sounds more like you'd rather not think about how you fit into the spectrum by instead pretending that its only purpose is an aggrandizing platform. That's how you'd prefer to see it, and therefore that's what you see. People who thought highly of the article are also those who've pretty much witnessed the same things firsthand, and would have liked to have said the similar things themselves. We've all been in the "idiot" shoes -- I used to be a blind CANDU fanboy at one point, and wouldn't listen to anything you could say about PLWRs, but I grew out of that when I was around 8 or 9 -- but applying sense and actually thinking when fitting is what it means not to be an idiot.

This whole thing wasn't about people not filling up their heads with stuff, but about not using the heads they've got. That's why it needed to be said. If I was wrong in stating that so many are in every way incapable of doing that, then there wouldn't have been the division you speak of as being this terrible end result.

[Viper]

Didn't I admit that my rep would get hurt with that media bias thread? Yes, I did. Didn't I then try to convert the thread into something positive by bringing forth real bias and FUD? Yes, I did. What was my first comment to part 1 on the main page? "I am humbled."

But this isn't about me, or you, it's about all of us as gamers. If we can't stop for a moment and accept we've all faulted, then we've proven Cpi correct.

[cliffbo]

That sounds more like you'd rather not think about how you fit into the spectrum by instead pretending that its only purpose is an aggrandizing platform. That's how you'd prefer to see it, and therefore that's what you see. People who thought highly of the article are also those who've pretty much witnessed the same things firsthand, and would have liked to have said the similar things themselves. We've all been in the "idiot" shoes -- I used to be a blind CANDU fanboy at one point, and wouldn't listen to anything you could say about PLWRs, but I grew out of that when I was around 8 or 9 -- but applying sense and actually thinking when fitting is what it means not to be an idiot.

This whole thing wasn't about people not filling up their heads with stuff, but about not using the heads they've got. That's why it needed to be said. If I was wrong in stating that so many are in every way incapable of doing that, then there wouldn't have been the division you speak of as being this terrible end result.

'It needed to be said'

as an older man with far more experience than you, i say that what you are saying here is arrogant. take it from someone who's been there, done that... mmmm... 'it needed to be said'

do you see what i mean now? did i just mean that?

[dnpmakkah]

I can't believe this thread is up to 18 pages. Do any of you really care what some guy over the internet says?

[cpiasminc]

'It needed to be said'

as an older man with far more experience than you, i say that what you are saying here is arrogant. take it from someone who's been there, done that... mmmm... 'it needed to be said'
That's your argument for everything. "Take it from me as a 49-year-old", "I'm 49 so I know better", "Well, I've been around the block 100x before you were born"... and that's not putting yourself on a pedestal? That's not singling yourself out as an inherently superior individual? That's not some flimsy excuse to absolve yourself of anything that fits the kinds of failings mentioned in the article? "I've been around longer, so it doesn't apply to me, anyway." For all your years, there have been more than a few times where you're every bit as guilty of the same errors that many of these "kids" are. Most of the time, the only thing that shows your age is your command of the language.

I don't refute whether you've seen more than I have. I refute whether you've shown that to count for more than just not being the worst of the bunch, and I most certainly will not automatically give you the benefit of the doubt when you screw up the same as anyone else just because you're older. If you really wanted me to take it into account, that would mean that I should expect the most out of you and chide you worse than anyone else should you ever betray those expectations.

[cliffbo]

are you deliberately missing my point? i have got no more right to say that than you have to call people 'idiots' that's what i'm saying there.

and please quote fully.


do you see what i mean now? did i just mean that?

your agenda is showing.

[cpiasminc]

are you deliberately missing my point?
Quite frankly, yes (though I do stand behind what I said). Remind you of any number of people?

[CreativeWriter]

Every time I see this thread it puts me in a bad mood. The articles, whatever their worth, are negative, mean-spirited things. They've divided the community, and whatever we think of "gamers at large" there's a real community here at PSiNext made up of real forum users. This slash and burn rhetoric is sure to drive new forum members away, making our community more isolated, elitist. Would you want to post at a forum where the top thread is titled "Why you are an idiot?" It makes me want to leave, and I've got muscle-memory invested in clicking the shortcut to this site five or six times a day. I cannot believe the articles' tone serves our long-term goals as a community. We do have goals, even if they're unstated. Grow user membership (help the site make money), engender a positive environment for forum users (keep making money... or at least don't lose money), educate forum users (who then proselytize the site to others)... The articles go for education but severely damage our cordial environment. There's discontent in the air. Who knows how they've affected membership? This thread is a record of the articles' negative effects. Anger, resentment, bickering.

We've got Curry sniping at MILR (poor MILR, becoming a whipping boy for the forum just for sticking up for what he likes), Viper insisting that labeling a group of people "idiots" is somehow better than attacking an individual (no), and CPI suggesting that those who object to his article are behaving as members of 'low-brow' sites would (irony). And, look, it's got me angry at all of you. Maybe I'll write an article about it.

I'd be quite curious to see our site's statistics since the articles went up. I suspect we had an increase in hits to the main site but posts by forum users with under 50 dropped off dramatically. I can't prove this, of course. It's just my hunch. I respect both CPI and Viper for having specialized knowledge in this field, but it's a mistake to hope to "purge" the forum through brow-beating. You may get what you wish, but our community will become a different place, one not friendly to new, sometimes uneducated voices. To try to pull the forum back to the way it was pre-05, making it a more dev-friendly tech-centric forum, is possible, but why would we want to? Our forum exists at the meeting place of normal users and those more in-the-know (such as CPI). As I argued earlier, this is a positive thing for E-mpire. Am I wrong?

[cliffbo]

Quite frankly, yes. Remind you of any number of people?

lol... got to hand it to you, that's pretty smart. :) don't you think it would be wise now to move this to general fiction?

[dnpmakkah]

i have got no more right to say that than you have to call people 'idiots' that's what i'm saying there.lol so true...so true.

[VG Aficionado]

Does this thread need to stay in this board?

[cliffbo]

thinking about it, does it need deleting? i can read the article on PSI anyway

[woundingchaney]

Gee guys I dont know. Do you need to click on it?????

[curryking1]

We've got Curry sniping at MILR (poor MILR, becoming a whipping boy for the forum just for sticking up for what he likes)...

Excuse me? And what about what I like? What about standing up for myself and my own principle?

I've asked this member repeatedly to at least once pay attention to what other people say, and I'm sorry maybe other people can be ok with this like yourself, but I don't appreciate being ignored by the same person every time on every subject.

I'm sure I'm not the only one peeved by this. Poor MILR? Ha....

[cliffbo]

he was making a general point, Curry, he wasn't taking a sideswipe at you. i know you can seperate subjective from objective :) look at what this thread is causing.

[curryking1]

I wouldn't see a point in mentioning that if it had anything to do with being general.

I agree with a lot of your post there Creative, but I personally think that was very out of place as my argument which seems to never go anywhere with that member has been happening long before any of this tripe has come up.

[VG Aficionado]

Gee guys I dont know. Do you need to click on it?????

Why does this thread belong more to the PS3 section than to General Gaming? We apparently can't discuss some multiplatform games here, but these off-topic* threads are apparently allowed. WTF? :shrug:

* off-topic = non-news, non-PS3 game/service/feature thread

[cpiasminc]

That begs the question of whether people want it in General Gaming because they honestly think about where it belongs or they want it there so that it can be ignored and forgotten and just disappear into nothingness?

[CreativeWriter]

... I most certainly will not automatically give you the benefit of the doubt when you screw up the same as anyone else just because you're older. If you really wanted me to take it into account, that would mean that I should expect the most out of you and chide you worse than anyone else should you ever betray those expectations.

This is the wrong attitude. If I knew more about you I might be able to psychoanalyze why you feel the need to judge and police others. It's authoritarian. Despotic.

My bet: you're smarter than your bosses and feel demeaned doing the arbitrary tasks you've been assigned. Think you'd have a more generous opinion of others if you, say, were given a raise? :thumbl:

[CreativeWriter]

I wouldn't see a point in mentioning that if it had anything to do with being general.

I agree with a lot of your post there Creative, but I personally think that was very out of place as my argument which seems to never go anywhere with that member has been happening long before any of this tripe has come up.

My bad Curry. You can have a beef with MILR if you like. I just feel bad for the guy. Perhaps we can add an ignore function. I think VBulletin has that option...

[CreativeWriter]

That begs the question of whether people want it in General Gaming because they honestly think about where it belongs or they want it there so that it can be ignored and forgotten and just disappear into nothingness?


Both?

[cliffbo]

That begs the question of whether people want it in General Gaming because they honestly think about where it belongs or they want it there so that it can be ignored and forgotten and just disappear into nothingness?

i am getting really p****d off with this constant pushing of your opinion. have you ever considered that you may be wrong!? your opinion on this matter is not wanted CP, perhaps you could take the hint, appologise for causing a stink here and ask a mod to either close the thread or move it. this response shows just how entrenched in your world you really are.

[Coded-Dude]

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/popcorn.jpg

:shifty:

*first post in this thread*

I'll admit I haven't read the article(yet), but would agree that leaving this thread in the PS3 section exclusively is like a big finger pointing at said section being the biggest group of idiots within the community(why else would it be put in here). Or maybe not, maybe we are the only ones that have the intelligence to grasp such articles and the Nintendo/Microsoft sections would be a waste of time(j/k). Maybe we are also the most active and the mods/admins felt the story/thread would get better exposure in this section. There are a million possible "maybes," but only a a select few can answer the question. btw - I was looking at our stats the other day and apparently we have fallen about 7k ranks since about the same time last year.........

*still waiting on E3 press material from E-mpire* :shrug:

[woundingchaney]

That begs the question of whether people want it in General Gaming because they honestly think about where it belongs or they want it there so that it can be ignored and forgotten and just disappear into nothingness?

This is the primary issue right here.


You guys want to keep whining so be it. I am not moving the thread. You do not have to read or click it.

Any other time one many would be hanging over Cpis words and there wouldnt be a damn thing said over the issue, although since so many choose to feel insulted we now get the second grade mentality.

[Coded-Dude]

You guys want to keep whining so be it. I am not moving the thread. You do not have to read or click it.


*doesn't recall whining about anything being discussed in this thread or the article it relates too*


:wave:

[Segitz]

What the heck?

Can't I leave you kids alone for just a second without you fighting over nothing? Jesus... (I am an atheist!!)

I mean, why so much bad blood? People are just stating their opinions. Maybe it is hard for some of you to jump their shadows (dunno if it makes sense in english though), but at least try to understand what the others are saying!

[OmniCloud]

Wow...I certainly didn't think this thread would even go past 3 pages...

Honestly--What the fuck is this? Excuse my bluntness, but this is probably one of the rudest post I will ever make...

I must have stumbled across the wrong bookmark, because I thought I was in an Entertainment FORUM :huh: This thread is complete nonsense! Who's right or wrong is irrelevant--I don't give a shit how long it takes for your voice to be heard, the tone of the articles CPI wrote is disrespectful--whether you think it applies to you or not. So if you learned from it, great! If you got offended, hey-no one's perfect. But to be pointing the finger like this is just annoying!

Why do I give a shit about the insides of the gaming industry? Why is it wrong to naturally assume a game built for PS3 first and foremost is gonna be worth checking out? Why can't I be mad that one of my favorite franchises isn't be developed on my console exclusively therefore probably not taking full advantage of the hardware?

Are those assumptions accurate? Maybe..maybe not. Bottom line, who gives a fuck!!! It's not our right to know the insides of the industry--that's the developers job. If your tired of seeing people post inaccurate things-then correct them, simple as that. I work in payroll, do I think people are freakin idiots because they don't know why they got a 3 or 5 day check? Sure...but do I voice that opinion? absolutely not-because it's not there business to know the ins and outs of payroll.

I find it very rude to post 3 articles about the same thing over and over again and not once really changing your tone. Does is bother me--not much, but what does bother me is that the article hasn't done anything truly constructive yet it certainly has angered a bunch of posters.

So what's the point? You can have the best advice/information/knowledge in the world, but if you can't relate in a decent way-it will go over everyone's head anyway. Not only that, people will feel offended and scoff even more.

Everyone isn't going to just go "hey, this doesn't apply to me, I'm not offended." this is complete bullshit! People are extremely broad and diverse, and different things rub some1 the wrong way. It is no matter of "if you took offense to the article, your part of the problem." that's BS--I don't like the article because the word idiot is used so many times--Am I part of the "idiocy" floating around the forums:huh:

I really expected more maturity out of this, it's almost like the article is judging people's morality on the basis of how they act on an gaming forum. Wake up--EVERYONE!!!

People aren't bright/objective/fair/reasonable/honest/caring/open or any of that nonsense. It doesn't happen in the real world, so what makes you think it will happen on forums? So engines are more than just the makeup to a game? PS3/X360 are closer in development processes than we realize. Honestly, who gives a flying fuck:huh: It's not our business to know. Everyone isn't going to be a developer. Everyone doesn't care about the mathematics or processing power of these consoles. Sometimes, it's nice NOT to know EVERYTHING, and just have a decent debate about similar interest.

If CPI or Viper or Wounding, or whoever wants to educate people, this is certainly not the way to go....

You can label my post as just bitching, but it's utterly disappointing how much attention has been drawn to this article, it's actually quite annoying.

Being knowledgeable doesn't make you wise. Being wise doesn't mean your always right. I think some of us has lost sight on just what the fuck it is were doing here.

Either some of you need to get laid, or go do whatever it is you do to lighten the fuck up and realize this entire forum revolves around videogames!!!
Video-Games!!!
Entertainment
Recreation!!
Happy-time!!!

Yes, things you are passionate about you defend strongly, but come now fellas--this is not passionate debating. this is a bunch of pancy-ass arguing over who knows more than each other. Over how you should view news/information and obtain it. Over how u freakin think?!:rant:

lol...honestly, I'm fucking done...going to play Stardust now

[woundingchaney]

This article had nothing to do with educating anyone. It was done to draw attention to just how little people know about this field they feel so free to speak on. If anything I suppose one could say it was meant to educate those on their lack of education given the topic.




I cant help but feel that everyone sitting back and screaming wolf is in some way guilty as charged. If you dont like the tone, if you dont like the content, whatever you dont like there are ways to discuss it. What we have here is a slew of children running rampant pointing the finger at everyone else.

[Coded-Dude]

PSInsider/PSINext users are the "idiots" of E-mpire? :wtf:

[Media]

Then you could argue that Blu-Ray discussions belong here, because this is the perfect place for people to exchange their thoughts on it.

Regardless of who's right or wrong, I do believe this thread is in the wrong section. Omni is right and saying that gamers are not idiots for not knowing the inner workings of the industry. You can label them ignorant if they preach incorrectly, but it doesn't make them an idiot at all.

The fact that this is in the PS3 section is still an insult, whether you think this place is the perfect example or not. You're a mod, not a teacher. Your job is to make sure the rules are followed, not bend them because you feel you need to teach members a lesson.

[woundingchaney]

PSInsider/PSINext users are the "idiots" of E-mpire? :wtf:

No.

[OmniCloud]

This article had nothing to do with educating anyone. It was done to draw attention to just how little people know about this field they feel so free to speak on. If anything I suppose one could say it was meant to educate those on their lack of education given the topic.




I cant help but feel that everyone sitting back and screaming wolf is in some way guilty as charged. If you dont like the tone, if you dont like the content, whatever you dont like there are ways to discuss it. What we have here is a slew of children running rampant pointing the finger at everyone else.


THIS ARTICLE BELONGS HERE, AS THIS PLACE IS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE.That's BS, the reason people are running around screaming and ranting is because of the goddamn tone Wounding...

If it's about how little we know about the industry-then what's the point of labeling people idiots?

There is no humor in that? Some people give a shit, some don't. I NOW give a shit because posters I know that are very objective and tries hard to be fair are getting pissed off.

But, I guess, well that's just our fault as well:susp:

[Coded-Dude]

ok, thanks for clarifying....good day :thumbl:

[woundingchaney]

Then you could argue that Blu-Ray discussions belong here, because this is the perfect place for people to exchange their thoughts on it.

Regardless of who's right or wrong, I do believe this thread is in the wrong section. Omni is right and saying that gamers are not idiots for not knowing the inner workings of the industry. You can label them ignorant if they preach incorrectly, but it doesn't make them an idiot at all.

The fact that this is in the PS3 section is still an insult, whether you think this place is the perfect example or not. You're a mod, not a teacher. Put this thread into GG where it belongs.
LOL


Who are you to dictate. You are not in the position one way or another to state anything nor am I going to move the thread. This is not a democracy, perhaps you should realize that. Im not concerned one bit with where you want the thread.

Oh and I am a teacher.



Everyone wants to run around and say "Hey Im not an idiot" and instead of giving a valid reason they just keep babbling nonsense.

[woundingchaney]

That's BS, the reason people are running around screaming and ranting is because of the goddamn tone Wounding...

If it's about how little we know about the industry-then what's the point of labeling people idiots?

There is no humor in that? Some people give a shit, some don't. I NOW give a shit because posters I know that are very objective and tries hard to be fair are getting pissed off.

But, I guess, well that's just our fault as well:susp:

Then discuss it Omni. All you need to do is ask the man will answer (or at least try). There hasnt been one attempt of any clarification (well not for pages anyways). All we have is insults being slung.

Any truly subjective poster shouldnt feel insulted, should they. The tone has little to do with how or why one is insulted. If they are insulted then it would suggest they are personally guilty of what is being criticized. If anything people being so passionate on the subject is the goal of the article itself. In the first page it was clarified that the article itself is not meant to be taken on a personal level. For whatever reason the insulted have done nothing but validate the article itself.

[Coded-Dude]

idiot - a person of subnormal intelligence

I think what people are trying to say is....whats the difference in going to a forum community for African-Americans and posting an article titled: Why you are a N****R. Sure you may get some readers to open their eyes, but candor goes a lot further than insults(especially with larger communities that vary greatly in age/intelligence). However, I think the reason people are bitching/whining is they don't care about being tactful as they see the article in question as NOT being tactful.



That is all.

[KRA]

That begs the question of whether people want it in General Gaming because they honestly think about where it belongs or they want it there so that it can be ignored and forgotten and just disappear into nothingness?

are you going to cry ?
the way you write is just so funny that is beyond anything i have read latelly.
you write like some sort god of shit.
then you are acting like 'hey if you pay more attention to the way i write than what i am writting you are an idiot'
in the end you feel more and more better than those who mostly just don't like how you write :)
really great thread.
as meaningful as my latelest animation i think.

http://digart.img.digart.pl/data/img/67/51/download/1008063.gif

[VG Aficionado]

Who are you to dictate. You are not in the position one way or another to state anything nor am I going to move the thread. This is not a democracy, perhaps you should realize that. Im not concerned one bit with where you want the thread.How awesome to hear this. Now we know that our opinions are on the ground level of E-mpire's hierarchy pyramid and that little it matters that a moderator or administrator does something wrong or something that many people dislike because he's just right no matter what he does. I think all the countries in the world which carry such policy become really prosperous and their people are really glad to belong to a place where they're subject of full submission :thumbl:

:barf:

idiot - a person of subnormal intelligence This thread is blurring the line between ignorance and idiocy with a demeaning tone, and that's just wrong. However, this apparently is a more worthy PS3 thread than a GTA thread :ohno:

[cpiasminc]

This is the wrong attitude. If I knew more about you I might be able to psychoanalyze why you feel the need to judge and police others. It's authoritarian. Despotic.

My bet: you're smarter than your bosses and feel demeaned doing the arbitrary tasks you've been assigned. Think you'd have a more generous opinion of others if you, say, were given a raise?
It's really a lot simpler than that. I just plain hate people.

If it's about how little we know about the industry-then what's the point of labeling people idiots?
You obviously missed the part about it not being about knowing or actually starting to give a damn about this and that... it's about applying a little sense and being aware that you don't know much of anything. It's being willing to think about something rather than letting baser emotionally driven attachments drive things. It's leaving the topic aside entirely if you don't care to know about it. Not knowing something is simply ignorance, which is not inherently an insult. Behaving as if that makes no difference, and perpetuating it for no reason other than self-satisfaction is stupidity.

However, I think the reason people are bitching/whining is they don't care about being tactful as they see the article in question as NOT being tactful.
Being tactless and not discussing anything on topic is not quite the same thing, though, is it? And if you take umbrage at it, then feel free to elaborate on the content rather than lashing out and screaming "This was mean and it should never have been written! Yeah! That's it! It should never have been written! Pikachu, I blame YOU!"

Does anybody have an actual rebuttal (feel free to be tactless in your rebuttal for all I care)? Or are you all just going to sit around and whine that you were all labeled as brainless dopes?

If someone wants to explain in full elaboration "Why CPIasminc is a jerk", go right ahead... Only downside to that is that I'd probably completely agree with your assessment. ;)

[cliffbo]

an idiot: someone without technical knowhow
an intellect: someone with technical knowhow

[KRA]

Does anybody have an actual rebuttal (feel free to be tactless in your rebuttal for all I care)? Or are you all just going to sit around and whine that you were all labeled as brainless dopes?

i understand
you just want to make as better.
to remove emotional attachment in discussions.
to stop being bunch of ignorants!
you are so nice.
and the way you do this is the only way.
it could be harsh but in the end some people will be better.
will be with you with your cruside to improve people.
you don't hate people. you love them. ohh how much you love them.
you are the best!

and if someone disagree is an idiot.

[cliffbo]

It's really a lot simpler than that. I just plain hate people.

it seems to me that all of this is getting to you CP... did you expect the whole forum to agree, surely not, i know you better than that. this does show though that the level of intellegence on this forum is higher than you'd anticipated and you are finding it very tough to justify your article. that's why you are beginning to hit out... yes? i see you CP :) i think perhaps Creativewriter was right about the 'in the shadows man'

[Coded-Dude]

http://www.teesmybody.com/images/t-shirts/detail/congratulations-idiot-t-shirt.gif
sorry just felt like posting this
btw - its a t-shirt that the staff may/may not be receiving as a Christmas gift from me. :moon:

Being tactless and not discussing anything on topic is not quite the same thing, though, is it? And if you take umbrage at it, then feel free to elaborate on the content rather than lashing out and screaming "This was mean and it should never have been written! Yeah! That's it! It should never have been written! Pikachu, I blame YOU!"

Does anybody have an actual rebuttal (feel free to be tactless in your rebuttal for all I care)? Or are you all just going to sit around and whine that you were all labeled as brainless dopes?

I'm not lashing out or screaming at anybody or anything, although I have a feeling you are speaking more generally anyways
(not directly speaking of my actions in this thread - which only came to fruition today on page 18)

I will read your article and post my comments in the comments section of the article.....Isn't that what they are for? Of course I have to agree that any other article with such broad sweeping topics would be quickly moved. (irregardless of the end result, i.e. - death a of a thread). I think some get the feeling that you guys(staff) are labeling us as the black sheep of your community by your statements/actions("THIS ARTICLE BELONGS HERE, AS THIS PLACE IS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE."). It would almost be easier to bump a dying article in General Gaming than it would to try and clean up what has become of this thread. "As staying on topic" ended almost as soon as the thread was created.

I will print the article and read it tonight CPI, then I'll give you some feedback. ;-]

[cpiasminc]

will be with you with your cruside to improve people.
you don't hate people. you love them. ohh how much you love them.
-___- Never quite heard it put that way...

I guess humanity is one thing and people are another. I hate people and fear for the sanctity of humanity.
Let's just say I think the song lyrics should be changed to "I believe the children are our future. That is why we're utterly screwed."

The very last bit of part 3 kind of sums up the whole thing in one shot -- for all you can say about the state of games going around and all the cookie-cutter franchises and the crappy movie licenses, the industry isn't going to mature if the gamers don't. If ... this ... is as good as it gets, then it's already over.

it seems to me that all of this is getting to you CP... did you expect the whole forum to agree, surely not, i know you better than that. this does show though that the level of intellegence on this forum is higher than you'd anticipated and you are finding it very tough to justify your article.
What I was hoping was that people would actually *respond* to it. I certainly expected a certain contingent of people to just be children about it, and every one I expected to do that did exactly as I predicted (some people, almost to the letter). But there were a few people I expected to have serious rebuttals, and so far, they've been the extreme, extreme minority at best.

To me, it's showing the level of intelligence (or at least the USE thereof) to be lower than I expected.

[The Dude]

After reading everything I could, I have come to this (please be gentle my brain is both small and fragile): CPI points out the logical fallicies that many many...many people use to debate video games with. Everyone has a mental melt down?

[Viper]

For those still asking why this is in this section, please read....again.

Cpi is a PSInsider writer and that that article was posted on PSInsider and prior to that it was discussed and edited in the PSInsider staff section and finally posted in the Sony section by a PSInsider moderator and staff writer.



Enough with the GTA thread. I've already said this elsewhere but here it is again (twice in this thread alone now).
As for the multi-platform issue, I'm still working on the details of that. We have a plan but it involves a lot of adjustments to our forum style sheets.

If you have any more complaints, take them to Suggestions and Feedback.

So lets recap.

Article is here because it was written by a Sony writer, approved and edited in the Sony staff section, published to our Sony site and threaded by a Sony moderator/Sony writer in our Sony section.

The GTA and others will be more easily accessible to all soon. We're working on a method to make General Gaming top level for all 3 gaming sections so you'll see all the GG threads while viewing the 3 Sony boards. See link (http://forums.e-mpire.com/forumdisplay.php?f=44)....just imaging all the GG threads below the 3 boards. This requires a lot more than clicking a few buttons.

Are we all clear on these issues now?

[KRA]

-___- Never quite heard it put that way...

I guess humanity is one thing and people are another.
Let's just say I think the song lyrics should be changed to "I believe the children are our future. That is why we're utterly screwed."

The very last bit of part 3 kind of sums up the whole thing in one shot -- for all you can say about the state of games going around and all the cookie-cutter franchises and the crappy movie licenses, the industry isn't going to mature if the gamers don't. If ... this ... is as good as it gets, then it's already over.

so it's game over ?!
give me more coins!

[VG Aficionado]

Are we all clear on these issues now?The issues are clear, but the problem is not whether they're clear or not, but how (im)properly they're being handled and whether right or wrong decisions were taken. You should be able to draw some conclusions from all the dissatisfaction, the complaints and the whining (other than we're idiots, that is).

[cliffbo]

how am i supposed to debate this CP? there are many different people on this forum, some that see a grainy pic in a mag and scream 'brilliant textures' some that see detail like you have never seen before and scream 'looks like a PS2 game' some people thought that framerate would be an issue in the future, others said that was nonsense. this isn't a subject to debate CP, this is a subject to inflame... i just think you underestimated the level of distain the article would inspire