Why you are an Idiot

[woundingchaney]

Cpi has composed an excellent editorial for PSI Next

Part 1 of 3 is now available on the main site.

http://psinsider.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=4&m_articles_articleid=872

[Applefiend]

... not an idiot, don't need to read that, thanks. :)

[Epix]

kind of abrasive don't you think? what's the point of this? If you want to inform misinformed people fine, but "Stop, drop, roll over and DIE... and the world will be a better place" is childish. We're better than that and editorials should be held to higher standards.

[woundingchaney]

... not an idiot, don't need to read that, thanks. :)

I dont think anyones intent was to label any of us idiots, more to put the spotlight on gamers and their presence in gaming forums (although Cpi should elaborate). Its a well written editorial none the less.

[Fats]

Lmao! Great way to insult the majority of your audience. :)

P.S - It does look rather well written though, not that I expected any less.

For most of you dolts, that’s about all you’ll ever be able to comprehend anyway, so learn to leave it at that. If you can’t remember that rule, then just try the following one: Stop, drop, roll over and DIE... and the world will be a better place.

:whip::whip::whip:

[Applefiend]

Although I look forward to the future two articles, "Why you have no friends(it's because you smell)", and "Why Jesus doesn't love you(because you're ugly)".

:)

[GTShotoKen]

Two words for CPI...Chill out. :)

The article was great in showing how little the public knows about how gaming machines work and common misconceptions about development, but it was overly negative.

I would like it if CPI spent more time educating us on topics like these (which he still is) instead of being pissed at the world and calling gamers idiots.

Edit: There are many things in this world that many people don't fully understand and that's just the way it is. I think it would better for the people who are more educated in areas like these to help educate people like us who aren't specialists.

[Fats]

Personally I'm quite fed up of CPI constantly being on his Soapbox. There's no doubt in the slightest that he's very intelligent and is hugely successful at what he does, but I'm sick of him looking down at just about everyone and shoving it down their throats.

[woundingchaney]

Well this is not the introverted perspective I had hoped it would stimulate in the forums.


Anyways I thought it was a good piece relating to me and thousands of others found in the modern gaming community. Or one could simply get insulted and go about their business.

[GTShotoKen]

Well this is not the introverted perspective I had hoped it would stimulate in the forums.


Anyways I thought it was a good piece relating to me and thousands of others found in the modern gaming community. Or one could simply get insulted and go about their business.

Wounding no one is getting simply insulted and walking away. I read the article and I do enjoy that a true industry veteran is taking the time to speak with us on these forums, but I don't want him wasting his intelligence telling us how dumb we are.

CPI always contributes great information to us as gamers and I hope he would word his articles more like he words more if his forum posts.

I don't need CPI to tell me I don't know as much about how games are developed than he does. I want him to enlighten me on game development instead.

[woundingchaney]

Wounding no one is getting simply insulted and walking away. I read the article and I do enjoy that a true industry veteran is taking the time to speak with us on these forums, but I don't want him wasting his intelligence telling us how dumb we are.

CPI always contributes great information to us as gamers and I hope he would word his articles more like he words more if his forum posts.

I don't need CPI to tell me I don't know as much about how games are developed than he does. I want him to enlighten me on game development instead.

You dont think its an issue that need be addressed?? Look at the hostility amongst gaming fans all over the internet basically due to the premise that "everyone knows". This is one of the few entertainment mediums where consumers hate each other for no apparent reason other than the brand of their console. Who better than someone within the industry (on a tech. perspective) to address it. While the article may be somewhat offensive, have you ever known the man to make tame statements. Suppose he did tell us about development (of which he isnt NDAed), the first thing many would do is use this as some sort of ammo amongst the more fanboy based forums around the net picking and choosing statements like fine grade ammo (it happens in this very forum).

But none the less to each his own.

[Viper]

Awesome piece.

The negativity is one part anger, one part wit, one part comedy and one part fire under your ass.

To dwell on the negative aspect and not take the article for what it's actually worth is partially to prove his point. Some of you fail to look deeply at what you see and you end up debating the surface and not the heart of the matter.

I know I learned from it.

[GTShotoKen]

You dont think its an issue that need be addressed?? Look at the hostility amongst gaming fans all over the internet basically due to the premise that "everyone knows". Who better than someone within the industry (on a tech. perspective) to address it. While the article may be somewhat offensive, have you ever known the man to make tame statements.

I won't lie and say that he's completely tame on the forums, but I do enjoy his posts on the forums when people ask him questions or are leading information in the wrong direction in a conversation and he corrects them on the matter without belittling them.

I know that many gamers are childish in their actions especially on the forums, but you'd at least expect someone who's actually in the industry to be the bigger man and not throw insults right back at gamers to perpetuate further hostility.

Great article though I have to admit. :)

[Rockmond]

CPI hurt my feelings...

:cry2:

[GTShotoKen]

Awesome piece.

The negativity is one part anger, one part wit, one part comedy and one part fire under your ass.

To dwell on the negative aspect and not take the article for what it's actually worth is partially to prove his point. Some of you fail to look deeply at what you see and you end up debating the surface and not the heart of the matter.

I know I learned from it.

I understand what you are saying Viper and I agree that CPI gives a great message none the less.

I liked the article alot, but it's not poetry. I don't expect to have to read between the lines to understand that's it more than just a rant, but a form of education. :lol:

[Gummy]

I enjoyed reading that.
It cheered me up a little (not sarcasm either).

[OmniCloud]

Harsh...but good write up. I always quote from other people though...

[Delirious]

I'm an idiot cause my momma said I can be anything I want to be when I grow up.

[makeitlookreal]

I care about game play, but I have to admit I care just as much or MORE about the graphics.

If someone wants to call me an idiot that's fine, because I know their wrong. I am a graphics whore, but that does not mean I'm an idiot. It simply means I like great graphics! I find them very important to obtaining enjoyment from a game.

Quite frankly, I would rather play a game with fantastic graphics and "good" game play than a game with good graphics and "fantastic" game play. Why? Because fantastic graphics (as long as the game play is at least decent) is very important to me.

It's my preference and I have every right to it. Also, others have the right to call me an idiot. But I'll know they are wrong. But then again, they have the right to keep the opinion that they are correct.

Now, there are some idiots out there. I was a total idiot about gaming hardware a couple years ago. I mean an absolute total gaming hardware idiot. But I was a gaming idiot because I knew so little about the hardware and NOT because I preferred games with top notch graphics.

The good news is that the graphics of the PS3 is exceeding almost everyone's expectations (at least for games this early on). Look at Ratchet and Clank, Drake's Fortune, MGS4, and Heavenly Sword. These games look stunningly good! Finally, look at Killzone. This is a game that no one thought would reach the target render. I would say that it's not there yet, but the fact it looks this good in a pre-alpha state is pretty impressive! It may not have reached it's target, but it came darn close!

I can't forget to talk about Resident Evil 5. In my opinion, the new trailer (which I think contained game play footage and not just CGI) looked BETTER than the one from 2005. The lighting was better and the shaders were better.

Additionally, look how good Motorstorm looks. It almost matched it's target render. And it did so without streaming textures from the HDD, without using a deferred rendering scheme, or fully utilizing the CELL to help with graphics.

I think top notch graphics are the wave of the future and people are going to become more and more demanding as time goes by. Yes, there are going to be GREAT games with poor graphics, but overall I think the graphical standard will improve every year.

Many developers will not like that, because it will mean they have to perform more work for the same number of sales. However, it will be a good thing for consumers because by demanding the best possible graphics when this generation is near an end the games are going to look amazing beyond belief.

I'm hyped about the PS3. I'm excited by what I'm seeing. And you know what? I'm looking forward to even MORE graphically great games!

[kaphwan]

Pride has no place when you're learning about something. Duh.

Let me be the first to say that I'm a moron who knows nothing about how the development process really works. But it's also great when someone takes the time to drop a few paragraphs and shed some light. Dispel some misinformation and false assumptions.

[OmniCloud]

lol...CPI is an asshole--but that was pretty funny though=-o

[Viper]

MILR, you didn't read the article, did you?

[makeitlookreal]

MILR,

I did read the whole article. I read the entire thing. If you want to make some points about my post please feel free to do so.

[Viper]

Well, you harped on the graphics aspect as though he told you good graphics were bad. The article is about why graphics look the way they do and expecting things beyond the scope of reality.

[Kabbage]

I didn't read it! I'm such a rebel.


**Might read it later**

[makeitlookreal]

Viper,

I tend to disagree with him. He acts like almost any big improvement in graphics is impossible. I think that is totally wrong. Yes, the hardware has limits. But the truth of the matter is that just like the PS2 the graphics of the PS3 will improve over time.

Also, there is another factor involved.

That factor is MONEY.

Game developers want to spend the least they can on a game to make the most money. However, top quality games with fantastic graphics tend to cost more money. Game studios need money to hire the absolute best minds, pay them enough to keep them highly motivated, have the needed equipment, pay for longer development timelines, and tons of other costs.

Quite frankly, there is a war between consumers and developers.

Consumers want the most for their gaming dollar. Developers want to sell consumers the least they can for that same gaming dollar. However, due to competition the good news is that developers have to compete with one another so making their game look good is a high priority.

Lately, when a game does not look really, really good I don't blame the hardware as much. I blame the company for not willing to spend the MONEY to make the game ALL IT CAN BE.

Yes, I realize developers have a budget they must follow. But as a consumer I cannot let that worry me. I need to purchase the games I like and for me when my PS3 arrives that will mean purchasing/renting games that have top notch graphics (and at least decent game play). I'm sending a message to the developers that if they don't work hard on their graphics they are not going to get my gaming dollar.

I really have a lot of respect for game developers. Many of them work very hard for little pay. Many of them strive to make their games look as good as they can, but their managers constrain them due to budgets. I really think game developers such as CPI are absolute geniuses in many ways.

However, we are in a peaceful, non-violent, and symbolic war. There are two sides. The consumers and the developers. I think the consumers need to demand that game developers spend the money to make the best games possible.

To be blunt, what I'm seeing these days is that the 360 and PS3 both have great hardware, but to get the most out of them developers need to have a lot of MONEY to make great looking games. When I see a less than stellar looking game one of my first thoughts is, "I bet that game was low budget!"

I'll give an example. Take the Spiderman 3 game. I doubt the budget for the PS3 version was very high. If it had been higher I think the game could have looked much better with more detailed models, textures, better lighting, etc.

Anyway, I have no problem with CPI. He is a genius. To a degree, I enjoyed his article. He made some good points. But I also disagree with him in some ways.

Quite frankly, graphics can be your measuring stick. Everyone has their own personal preferences.

[GTShotoKen]

Well, I need to better explain my thoughts on the article.

I thought it was very very excellent at setting overzealous gamers (me included) in their place and showing them that they don't know everything. At the same time CPI also gave me a better understanding of how development on these systems work (just like usual).

I hope CPI reads this thread and doesn't take everything said against him as a negative. He's a great mind needed for this community and I hope he writes more articles personally.

I just wish that he could be more assertive about his statements though.

His article reminded me that there are truths and there are unnecessary truths. The truth is that we don't know everything, and for most nearly nothing, about game development or the hardware these games are made for. The unnecessary truth is that we are all idiots who need to shut up and some just need to roll over and die....:lol:. I know alot of people here can come up with alot of evidence to support the unnecessary truth (although it is subjective in nature), but it doesn't serve a purpose, but piss people off (that's the best way I could word it). :)

Anyways, keep up the good work CPI and try to post more dammit. http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa188/shmookins/emos/hero.gif

[Z]

a rant article about idiot forum posters. but it was funny;
That is idiocy of a level that could justify homicide.
lol.

[GTShotoKen]

Ok, that line was pretty hilarious. lol

[julps31]

Ha, ha...so many quotables.

I’m talking about the people who read totally arbitrary press releases where some guy from EA says “we’re using about 1/3 of the Xbox 360's power” and assume that means the graphics will look 3x better towards the end of the 360's life. Or those who think that when a studio says a game is 10% complete, the final thing will look 10x better. Or those who immediately assume that a game that has framerate problems just needed to “tone down the graphics a bit” in order to avoid it. The people who think you can take a game made for 360/PS3 and port it to the Wii by simply pulling back on graphics. Yeah, you know who you are. And now you know something else. You’re an idiot.

Oh, yeah, it leaves out the fact that vertices actually consist of DATA! Moving data requires bandwidth, and moving 6 billion vertices requires more bandwidth than the whole Xbox 360 has. Even if you include the wholly internal busses which DO NOT connect any two separate devices (e.g. the famed 256 GB/sec eDRAM which directly affects nothing other than the eDRAM die itself), you don’t even get halfway there for a pretty ordinary-sized vertex. Even for the smallest possible vertex, you don’t get there. Never mind that the only meaningful bus here is the main memory bus, because it’s quite likely you’re too stupid to get that part.

And of course, when something does look favorable in screenshots, it’s somehow so often the case that it isn’t because those developers know what they’re doing and (more importantly) have the latitude to actually do it, but because the platform (whether you’re talking hardware or software) is inherently superior to the competition. It’s such an utter joke when people talk of how a super-powerful machine or a superior game engine makes everything easy and we just have to plug stuff in and make it work. That is idiocy of a level that could justify homicide.
Lmao..we've all been wet blanketed.

[Viper]

Viper,

I tend to disagree with him. He acts like almost any big improvement in graphics is impossible. I think that is totally wrong. Yes, the hardware has limits. But the truth of the matter is that just like the PS2 the graphics of the PS3 will improve over time.

I swear you make ti sound like you didn't read it much. He addressed this exact issue.

Sorry, but I'm taking his perspective of how the advancements in game development will occur over your hopeful perspective.

Nothing wrong with being hopeful just don't assume your hope is flat out correct over someone that knows precisely what he's talking about.

[makeitlookreal]

CPI is a very, very intelligent person. He may even be a genius! He makes many good points. However, I don't think the word mellow is in his vocabulary. :-)

[yoshaw]

:laugh: Omg, the article is a hi-larious piece! +rep CPI.

[Z]

I wounder what part 2 and 3 will be about? it seems that he made his current point very clear. I don't think he'll follow up on it. :)

[the boney king of nowhere.]

that was boring.

[Viper]

@Z.
Those are just as good. Don't ask for any sneak peaks either.

[lips]

I wanted so badly to make an lol over the title.

But I found the article very good, and explains modern technology in a diplomatic way. There is a good article on the complexities of procedural rendering, I found it by way of z-buffers in Wikipedia.

[makeitlookreal]

Viper,

It's really a matter of degrees. I realize that PS3 games six years from now are not going to look 10 times better. I would agree with CPI that someone who expects that does not have a realistic expectation.

However, the truth of the matter is games will indeed continue to look better. The issue is to what degree? I think it will be significantly better. How many times better? I don't know. But I think they will look better in a very noticeable way.

For example, consider Resistance Fall of Man and Killzone 2. In just a short period of time there is a significant leap in graphical quality. Now, will this climb in graphical quality continue to grow this rapidly? No. The curve will start to slow down. However, by the end of the life cycle I think the games will look significantly better, but obvious not 10 times better.

The problem is it's really hard to specify degrees when you are talking about concepts like "graphical quality." It's hard for someone like CPI to tell the difference between someone that has optimistic expectations and those that have simply ridiculous expectations.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Well this is not the introverted perspective I had hoped it would stimulate in the forums.


Anyways I thought it was a good piece relating to me and thousands of others found in the modern gaming community. Or one could simply get insulted and go about their business.

People on the internet are infallible, stubborn, and insecure and hate to be told that they are not in fact perfect human beings, or that their perspectives and opinions are not always totally correct, all of the time. God forbid someone write something that's actually well informed and humorous if it is abrasive in anyway. I rather enjoyed it and think it's hilarious. I guess guilty people will feel guilty.

[GTShotoKen]

I can't even think what would be in the next two articles either. They must be a real doozy after reading this first one.

P.S.- I always liked it when he would tell us of his ray-tracing projects. I wonder what he's up to now?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Two words for CPI...Chill out. :)

The article was great in showing how little the public knows about how gaming machines work and common misconceptions about development, but it was overly negative.

I would like it if CPI spent more time educating us on topics like these (which he still is) instead of being pissed at the world and calling gamers idiots.

Edit: There are many things in this world that many people don't fully understand and that's just the way it is. I think it would better for the people who are more educated in areas like these to help educate people like us who aren't specialists.


Dude he tells us all kinds of stuff all the time and people who don't like it don't want to listen.

[Nameless]

I completed the first paragraph...
All I can say is welcome to the internet and the world of forums and blogs; everyone has an opinion and is an expert...

BTW the idiots spend money too.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Awesome piece.

The negativity is one part anger, one part wit, one part comedy and one part fire under your ass.

To dwell on the negative aspect and not take the article for what it's actually worth is partially to prove his point. Some of you fail to look deeply at what you see and you end up debating the surface and not the heart of the matter.

I know I learned from it.

qft.

[9thPower]

Lol, i will print it and read more in my bed. Thanks CPI lol :)

Edit: and that's why I don't get in technical fights for who's CPU/GPU is the best Lol... I think... ;)

[GTShotoKen]

People on the internet are infallible, stubborn, and insecure and hate to be told that they are not in fact perfect human beings, or that their perspectives and opinions are not always totally correct, all of the time. God forbid someone write something that's actually well informed and humorous if it is abrasive in anyway. I rather enjoyed it and think it's hilarious. I guess guilty people will feel guilty.

Guilty people can also act innocent too...:lol:

You don't have to like the article to prove that you aren't guilty of these very things either.

I'm not saying I'm guilty myself nor am I saying that I'm not guilty, that's up to guys like CPI to decide.

[yoshaw]

Just a thought!

Actually I was thinking if a developer could get riled up so much as CPI for a gamer to take developers word out of context.

Then why should developers be exempt from the namecalling. I mean shouldn't we align all developers in the same line and call them morons, dimwits, SOB's, mother*****rs, liars for saying things such as 1/3power, promising the new trailer will be better than what's already shown. UT3 looking better now than Gears, Footage is realtime yet deep they know its CGI or mix of both, Fishing publishers with fake source material when the game isn't finished yet, etc etc

If every gamer is an idiot for saying so many things that baffle the mind, then all developers(everyone of 'em, you too angry man!) are a mean ugly lying mother#%&$3r for saying things that are far from the truth.

Picture has two sides, yeah?

2 cents. no offense.

[Nameless]

^ Yoshaw it's not the developer's fault for false expectations...
It's the publishers and marketing department's fault. ;)

[Viper]

^ Yoshaw it's not the developer's fault for false expectations...
It's the publishers and marketing department's fault. ;)

And our fault for wanting to hear such PR speak nonsense and buying into it.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Guilty people can also act innocent too...:lol:

You don't have to like the article to prove that you aren't guilty of these very things either.

I'm not saying I'm guilty myself nor am I saying that I'm not guilty, that's up to guys like CPI to decide.

Psh, I read the article and enjoyed every sentence, and got up here to chime in on how right I think he is. But plenty of people are so quick to take the 'how dare you say this and that about me!' stance, but he never mentions anyone by name. Backlashing on the presumption that he's addressing you is guilt. I'll be the first person to change my opinion when I'm proven wrong over something, I only argue about things I know I'm talking about or am 99% sure I'm right. And if I'm wrong, I'll change my mind. Easiest thing in the world. :thumbl:
Don't be a hater bro. I know I've built a love hate relationship with everyone in being so abrasive and direct with people, but 99% of the time I'm saying what everyone else is thinking.

[yoshaw]

^ Yoshaw it's not the developer's fault for false expectations...
It's the publishers and marketing department's fault.

And our fault for wanting to hear such PR speak nonsense and buying into it.

I stand corrected. Hear ya both loud n clear.

[GTShotoKen]

Psh, I read the article and enjoyed every sentence, and got up here to chime in on how right I think he is. But plenty of people are so quick to take the 'how dare you say this and that about me!' stance, but he never mentions anyone by name. Backlashing on the presumption that he's addressing you is guilt. I'll be the first person to change my opinion when I'm proven wrong over something, I only argue about things I know I'm talking about or am 99% sure I'm right. And if I'm wrong, I'll change my mind. Easiest thing in the world. :thumbl:
Don't be a hater bro. I know I've built a love hate relationship with everyone in being so abrasive and direct with people, but 99% of the time I'm saying what everyone else is thinking.

lol, I'm not hating on you at all actually.

It was just a joke. Hence the....:lol:

I just wanted to get you since your statement was actually good. No hard feelings. :)

[gozirah]

I think those labeling CPI's editorial as harsh should note that he *has* tried to tell it like it is, and I imagine he feels like it falls on deaf ears.

However, despite the negative tone, just by writing this piece it has totally given away the fact that CPI has some sort of residual optimism that he might actually change us readers for the better.

Admit it, CPI, you have hope! :evillaugh Sucker!

[yoshaw]

:lol:

I wouldn't be too sure about that with CPI's tone and with 2 more pieces to come :laugh:

[GTShotoKen]

I think those labeling CPI's editorial as harsh should note that he *has* tried to tell it like it is, and I imagine he feels like it falls on deaf ears.

However, despite the negative tone, just by writing this piece it has totally given away the fact that CPI has some sort of residual optimism that he might actually change us readers for the better.

Admit it, CPI, you have hope! :evillaugh Sucker!

This is very true. CPI loves us, but he can't admit it....maybe through PM's though....:lol:

[Gegenki]

Isn't that the point of the media. People buy into it. People constantly talk about why the media is bad and spreads crap but people still buy into it.
I understand what Cpi said and can see where he is coming from but its already beginning to make me sick how you guys can talk in such a condescending way just because you read it and have atoned.
It just seems that everyone here after reading that article has jumped ship and is talking from the other side rather than acting less high and mighty.

[cpiasminc]

This is very true. CPI loves us, but he can't admit it....maybe through PM's though....
Hmmm... does that make this series "tough love"?

I should also say that as much as Viper, and wounding, and Lali, and some other mods say about it, they're also speaking from the perspective of people who have already seen all 3 parts (they're all already written, but need some proofreading and such). And quite a few of the things that people have brought up in this thread are indeed actually addressed. The other parts cover things besides what this part got into which was just one "chapter" so to speak, specifically the graphics-as-a-measuring-stick thing.

I suppose it might have been less grating if I'd not trimmed it down the way I had, but I think it was also necessary. Besides which, if I hadn't trimmed it down, it would have easily been 13 parts rather than just 3.

And yes, the quick reactions in spite of being clearly told that there are 2 more parts to come do indeed drive home a few points, even if you all haven't seen those points yet. And also, as wounding mentioned on page 1, it isn't specific -- it's directed all across the internet.

[the boney king of nowhere.]

there is too much HDR in this thread.

[Jay Gee]

Dude sure kicked our asses.
*rubs his ass*

[Fats]

there is too much HDR in this thread.

Don't you mean Bloom?! OMG YOU'RE SUCH A NOOB!

[GTShotoKen]

Hmmm... does that make this series "tough love"?

I should also say that as much as Viper, and wounding, and Lali, and some other mods say about it, they're also speaking from the perspective of people who have already seen all 3 parts (they're all already written, but need some proofreading and such). And quite a few of the things that people have brought up in this thread are indeed actually addressed. The other parts cover things besides what this part got into which was just one "chapter" so to speak, specifically the graphics-as-a-measuring-stick thing.

I suppose it might have been less grating if I'd not trimmed it down the way I had, but I think it was also necessary. Besides which, if I hadn't trimmed it down, it would have easily been 13 parts rather than just 3.

I'm glad you took the time to post CPI.

Well that certainly puts things into a much better perspective now.

I guess I'm at fault now too for taking up arms before all three parts were published.

I can't wait to read the next two parts.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

lol, I'm not hating on you at all actually.

It was just a joke. Hence the....:lol:

I just wanted to get you since your statement was actually good. No hard feelings. :)

BAN!

j/k

[yoshaw]

Don't you mean Bloom?! OMG YOU'RE SUCH A NOOB!

:lol:

Yup, these articles need some anti-aliasing done on them. God damn jaggies rubbing a lot of folks in here. Frosty n crew better apply some 4xMSAA on the other two comin up ;)

[OmniCloud]

2cents...

Some will take offense to the article--but don't lash out--CPI is being rather "harsh" with words, it's perfectly natural to get defensive when someone is speaking words that apply to you.

Not everyone has the same sense of humor. Not everyone shrugs off name calling as quickly as others, so for the members that have read the whole thing and see more clearly CPI's ultimate message, it's a bit unfair to downgrade reader's defensive post after reading part 1.

It's is very harsh, but I'm just an asshole just like CPI so I personally didn't take any offense to it...

Will it change the way I post?! Absolutely not
:lol:

I get corrected when I'm wrong, sometimes I actually know what I'm talking about, sometime I write post with so much passion that it moves people to really think--that I know what I'm talking about. SOmetime--you really do know what your talking about..lol

I say--fuck it...

If you can't be yourself on a freakin forum--then there's no real chance for any honest opinions to come out anyway. Indeed we all need to stop trying to be knowitalls and that point is of course well taken--but I don't think CPI's asking any1 to change there style of posting...

Just stop pointing the ranting finger and listen/learn more than you preach....

that's what I got from it anyway:shrug:

[GTShotoKen]

We start off with the negative then move to the positive and now the people here are better for it (or at least I am...hopefully http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa188/shmookins/emos/hope.gif).

Edit: Hey CPI, did you go to E3 by chance?

[Applefiend]

Not only is cpi mean, I hear him and DeanoC all speak about us behind our backs in a special language only developers know of made out of high and low tones.

I think they're planning to use us all as food. :(

[cpiasminc]

For those thinking this was harsh, the "roll over and DIE" line is probably not the harshest thing I say over the span of the 3 parts (depending on what you consider harsh). ;)

God damn jaggies rubbing a lot of folks in here. Frosty n crew better apply some 4xMSAA on the other two comin up
It comes for free if you use OS X or even Safari on Windows. And not the Microsoft kind of "free" AA, but the Apple kind -- you know, the kind that means "whether you like it or not."

Not only is cpi mean, I hear him and DeanoC all speak about us behind our backs in a special language only developers know of made out of high and low tones.

I think they're planning to use us all as food.
....... psssst... Deano! I think they're onto us... I'm a Tamil Brahmin, so I'm born a vegetarian, but I'm not averse to slaughtering so that others may partake...... You, my friend, are proving to be quite the caterpillar in our buttermilk. It seems my hands are tied, and I must take action.

[frosty]

I find it funny how people here think Cpias is calling them an idiot. If you actually read the damn thing, you would know that he is calling the people who claim to know things about tech and the game development process (but in reality only see it all from the surface) idiots. If you think he is calling you an idiot, then you are labeling yourself guilty as charged.

[gibmonster]

this article is great. i just had to deal with someone on another forum exactly as described in that article. very true, and fun read

[GTShotoKen]

Not only is cpi mean, I hear him and DeanoC all speak about us behind our backs in a special language only developers know of made out of high and low tones.

I think they're planning to use us all as food. :(

They both communicate to each other by developing a different ray-tracing engine for each letter of the alphabet and send prerender images between each other using each engine to decipher coded messages of hatred towards gamers.

[GTShotoKen]

I find it funny how people here think Cpias is calling them an idiot. If you actually read the damn thing, you would know that he is calling the people who claim to know things about tech and the game development process (but in reality only see it all from the surface) idiots. If you think he is calling you an idiot, then you are labeling yourself guilty as charged.

Hopefully I'm not one of those idiots, but you still don't want to alienate the audience you want to educate. It makes it harder to get your point across.

I was more worried than offended by the article at first.

[gozirah]

@frosty
But that's the rub, isn't it? How could you ever be sure you're not one of the idiots he's talking about? People in this thread are probably looking up HDR on Wikipedia as we speak just to be sure.

[Gegenki]

@frosty
But that's the rub, isn't it? How could you ever be sure you're not one of the idiots he's talking about? People in this thread are probably looking up HDR on Wikipedia as we speak just to be sure.

lol, I was gonna do that but I'm too tired right now.
I actually read something in the directx sdk about hdr and bloom yesterday and I was sitting there going... what the heck is bloom

ITs a good thing i never talk about hdr :p

[makeitlookreal]

I use graphics as a measuring stick so I bet CPI thinks I'm an idiot. He has the right to think that. However, I disagree. I consider it a personal preference.

[yoshaw]

Slow news day, eh?

j/k actually the collar grabbin is more fun to read.

[frosty]

But that's the rub, isn't it? How could you ever be sure you're not one of the idiots he's talking about? People in this thread are probably looking up HDR on Wikipedia as we speak just to be sure.

Not knowing what HDR is is one thing, claiming to know that the devs put "too much HDR" into the game is what he is talking about here.

[makeitlookreal]

Consider this quote.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/i...ml?sid=6175383

GS: What's it been like working on the PlayStation 3 for the first time?

BF: For us, the most exciting part of the PS3 has been the cell processor, the SPUs specifically. In our highest density scenes right now, we are currently using about 30 percent of the SPUs' capabilities--with the SPUs doing lots of heavy lifting for us on rendering, visibility, particle systems, skinning, animation blending, and so on...this with scores of pedestrians, cars, fires, etc., all going on. And the best part? We've not made any significant attempts to even optimize the SPU code. I think it's reasonable to guess we could put 10 times as much stuff on the SPUs and still make our frame budgets. It's really pretty amazing.

CPI: Do you think it is wrong for a developer to make a comment like that?

[GTShotoKen]

His beef isn't with devs MILR, but gamers who think they know as much as devs.

Devs know the limitations of hardware and what each gaming system brings to the table when it comes to performance while the average gamer doesn't, but some pretend that they do.

Besides, most devs aren't gonna say the completely truth in an interview like that when they have PR to look out for and relations with the companies who own the gaming systems.

[cpiasminc]

I use graphics as a measuring stick so I bet CPI thinks I'm an idiot. He has the right to think that. However, I disagree. I consider it a personal preference.
The more I read your posts in this thread, the more I think you didn't read it. Or at least, if you did, you ignored a hell of a lot. You're arguing using points that were actually mentioned in the article. That too, you keep talking about it being a "preference" as in saying "this is how I want it to be" and not saying that "this is the way it actually is..."

Of course, in part 3, I do get into the "how I want it to be" part, but on a different scope than you appear to be thinking.

That said, I do completely disagree with the idea because, as I did mention in the article, there's a whole lot of other stuff that just hasn't been improving much at all by comparison, and graphics is comparatively easy (in spite of the fact that there are dozens and dozens of unsolvable problems in graphics) because everybody just throws silicon at the problem. The concept of games in this generation advancing only in graphics yet again, to me, would be equivalent to saying that CPU power is a complete waste.

Now I'm actually quite curious to see how you'll react after parts 2 and 3. I have a pretty good idea how many of the others are going to react, but I'd like to see how much you missed and restate back to me.

CPI: Do you think it is wrong for a developer to make a comment like that?
He's selling the product. He's not trying to cover the efforts they needed to make -- he's focusing on what he knows gamers actually are capable of digesting. Though I do think the "30 percent" part is really asking for trouble.

[makeitlookreal]

Hello CPI,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I see games advancing in many ways. For example, look at the impressive animation in games such as Drake's Fortune or the physics in a game like Motorstorm. Also, the PS3 is capable of amazing sound. Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems that games are improving in many ways.

[Gegenki]

I don't think anyone has mentioned, when will the other 2 parts be out?

[cpiasminc]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I see games advancing in many ways. For example, look at the impressive animation in games such as Drake's Fortune or the physics in a game like Motorstorm. Also, the PS3 is capable of amazing sound. Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems that games are improving in many ways.
Not in proportion. If animation had been advancing at the same rate as graphics, then what is currently so amazing about Drake's Fortune would have already been superceded on the Dreamcast. If sound had been advancing like graphics has been, we'd have already had 7.1 surround with 32-bit 256 KHz audio channels on the PS2. If physics had been advancing like graphics has been, we'd have seen ragdoll for the first time on the N64.

There are many steps forward in graphics all the time, but everything else is incremental. In many cases, it's still the same technologies just scaled up in quantity.

Now at least with PS3 and 360, there's a little more possibility for everything else to play catchup with all those GFLOPS. But in the end, it only matters if people can see a marked visual difference, and so the technology will only advance in that case. That's why graphics still come up front and center, and that's what's fundamentally bad -- there's a lot that can be done that simply won't happen in reality because it's just too "behind-the-scenes."

I don't think anyone has mentioned, when will the other 2 parts be out?
You may have to ask Dorbin about that (he's proofreading/editing them), but ideally, you should all get to see all 3 parts pretty quickly.

[Xer0]

Harsh, rude, and too the point, i loved it. Not much of a fan of sugar coating, and although a little bit too dragged out in order to make room for all of your aggression, i still thought it was a good read. Namely, this part stuck out;

It’s all well and good to talk about graphics when all you have to go on is screenshots. It’s NOT acceptable to start talking about developers and game engines and market dynamics and things you don’t have a flipping clue about - nor even understand in the least - when all you have to go on is screenshots. People are fallible and no game will ever be perfect, but you have no idea what or why or where failures happen, or what the stipulating factors were. But of course, you, like an idiot, prefer to presume that the only explanation is that no one is doing his/her job... that too, rather than lack of ability or lack of freedom or poor decision-making or bad management, the fault lies with the fact that developers are lazy -- after all, developers and the development process is the only thing in between a game’s concept and a game’s appearance on the shelf. And of course, when something does look favorable in screenshots, it’s somehow so often the case that it isn’t because those developers know what they’re doing and (more importantly) have the latitude to actually do it, but because the platform (whether you’re talking hardware or software) is inherently superior to the competition. It’s such an utter joke when people talk of how a super-powerful machine or a superior game engine makes everything easy and we just have to plug stuff in and make it work. That is idiocy of a level that could justify homicide.

Im not going to try and lie or play dumb, i really do think this way and i have never thought about it any other way. Game looks prettier on one counsel then another, well obviously its all the counsol. But really, this just makes so much more sense its kinda embarassing not having thought of it before, so thanks for the heads up. And as a diclaimer, im a Nintendo fanboy, i dont know that graphics even exist so my ignorance is founded :P

[cpiasminc]

Often times, what a lot of people call "ports" are actually parallel development on multiple platforms. After that point, any differences you may see will be related to thinks that aren't so directly related.

For instance, 1080p vs. 720p. Sure you can say that's an advantage of the PS3 vs. the 360, but it really has nothing to do with the game's content or development cycles... it's all on your end.

I've also found that some of the post-processing that the PS3 does is a lot less damaging than the 360's (not in the purely negative sense, but that it makes the least dramatic changes) , but that's not a power or a computing thing... but then a lot of that effect can totally be wiped out anyway when the TV makes an even more drastic change (which a lot of TVs will do in the name of higher apparent specs).

[lips]

Yeah, I gotta agree, the name calling is a bit insensative at the end. So what do you think, should i go down and pick up a ps3 tonight? I know there is a $499 one sitting at the walmart down the street as we speak...

[The Dude]

I can happily say that I have never cared about system specs. They are usless to the average gamer. I have no idea what they mean or what a developer can actually do with said specs. Well put Cpi.

[gozirah]

Often times, what a lot of people call "ports" are actually parallel development on multiple platforms. After that point, any differences you may see will be related to thinks that aren't so directly related.

But as you must know, the basis of gamer frustration with so called ports is the suspicion that the game could have been better if developer resources were focused on one platform.

While the word "port" connotes lazily phoning in old code to an unsuited platform, the phrase "parallel development" still smells of overworked, distracted, smelly programmers that have spread their attentions thinly across different technical challenges.

[lips]

All this talk about hardware specifics, and low latency memory that is not just *claimed* bandwidths. Just take a look at this technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-RAM) being developed by AMD. 3ns latency. Thats like 10 cpu cycle latency, implying that this is atleast as fast as amd's fastest L2 cache. If viable, such a technology used in a future xbox would clearly out pace xdr2 memory. Heck it would out pace 128bit esdram used in future intel and amd l1 caches, although used as a dram.

[julps31]

Cpi's next articals titled..."Why didn't you close the damn door when i told you to?" and "You know what happens when you step on my shoe right?!!!" lol..

[Smokey]

nice write up mate........ and I am an idiot lol

[cpiasminc]

While the word "port" connotes lazily phoning in old code to an unsuited platform, the phrase "parallel development" still smells of overworked, distracted, smelly programmers that have spread their attentions thinly across different technical challenges.
Again, that's because people are idiots, though I can't really deny the smelly part... The only way that happens is if a studio is too underfunded to have a decent amount of labor, and while that's actually the majority case, it also accounts for the games that nobody has even heard of or ever talks about.

If you'd heard of the terms "wrapper", "ifdef", "platform overrides", "build processes", it should become clear that most any multiplatform engine is, in a certain manner of speaking, multiple engines all accessed from a common point. The misconceptions here are also vaguely related to what people think a game engine actually is, which is largely actually beyond the reality.

How overworked programmers are often has more to do with the timing of when you ask than what their actual workload is. Being overworked isn't very likely at all when you're actually working on the "engine"... after a game is in the final production round, though, triage rules the day, but there wouldn't be any "engine" work anyway at that point -- at least not in a capacity that affects that game. Team structure also has a lot to do with it, too... but even when you talk about things like the ea_spouse kind of stories, they account for the worst of times. When those times aren't in place, people are actually more likely to be underutilized.

Distracted programmers don't exist for very long (assuming they're always too distracted) -- it's one thing to be reading webcomics while you're waiting for a build, it's another thing to jump here and there and never get any one thing done. Those who fall in the latter group are sacked, and many companies are careful not to sack them so late in the production process that they can't avoid removing that person's name from the credits. Smelly programmers is a redundant assessment.

[yoshaw]

nice write up mate........ and I am an idiot lol

And so am I

:cheers: to that! lol

[KRA]

pointless piece of text born from boredom and some strange frustration.
anyway shouldn't it be in gereral discussions or something ?

[Smokey]

pointless piece of text born from boredom and some strange frustration.
anyway shouldn't it be in gereral discussions or something ?

if you look at it that way KRA these Forums are as pointless

[KRA]

if you look at it that way KRA these Forums are as pointless

not really it's the place where i can fast get to the newest info. and talk to nice people.
but recently i have enough discussions about some things that i don't even care to mention.
anyway i even haven't read this text.
can you get my point ?! :)
idiots don't read.

[Segitz]

Very interesting^^

As an to-be engineering in the field of cars and engines, I know exactly how you feel... When I see people driving around their "tuned" Golfs (VW Golf, dunno if you Americans know it), I get the creeps... Most people (the cool ones obviously) only "tune" the optics of a car (paint job, front and back diffusor etc.) but dont do anything in terms of performance to their car (like turbocharging and such).

Optics matter most, no matter what. My coed and I are very much into car racing (DTM and the like) and play around with his car a lot (my car was wrecked by a deer some time back... 5000+€ damage, hit it at 140km/h or about 90mph). The only optical stuff we did, was changing the springs and changing the rims (his original ones looked like crap^^). My old car was a Mazda 626 GLX 2.0i (ca 1000kg but 120PS, I was a student back at that time).


So, what I want to say is...

As an avid user of Maya and Catia (professional CAD software) I know what modelmaking is about. As I dont have hardware limitations (our workstations at University are quiet good) I can model whatever I want (some of my models have as much as 500k polygons, then the workstations suffer at realtime rendering with lighting and the like). But a console has only 1/4 of the RAM these stations have and quiet a bad GPU (we a NVIDIA Quadros, the equivalent to the 7900 GTX iirc). (a good looking render with only 2-4 lights takes several minutes to do so, a 60Hz PS3 game has 0.01666... seconds to do so!)

And since a game is composed not only out of graphics, but size (big levels), massive enemy numbers and realtime physics, one cannot just go there and make the most realistic graphics there are without compromising the rest of the game. Look at Killzone (one on PS2). The game looked really good, but the rest was subpar.

I have a little problem expressing my thoughts right now (english not being my native language and all).

[Xer0]

Very interesting^^

As an to-be engineering in the field of cars and engines, I know exactly how you feel... When I see people driving around their "tuned" Golfs (VW Golf, dunno if you Americans know it), I get the creeps... Most people (the cool ones obviously) only "tune" the optics of a car (paint job, front and back diffusor etc.) but dont do anything in terms of performance to their car (like turbocharging and such).

Optics matter most, no matter what. My coed and I are very much into car racing (DTM and the like) and play around with his car a lot (my car was wrecked by a deer some time back... 5000+€ damage, hit it at 140km/h or about 90mph). The only optical stuff we did, was changing the springs and changing the rims (his original ones looked like crap^^). My old car was a Mazda 626 GLX 2.0i (ca 1000kg but 120PS, I was a student back at that time).




Yes we do, only hear they arent "tuned" Golfs (Or Rabbits again as the Golf name is only used on the MKV GTI and R36, assuming we get the later) they are Civics, some Foci, Proteges, Neons, and the like. Anything that can be had for cheap pretty much. Its really funny, and just so sad.

[section]

CPI is one of our most valuable assets on this forum. Everybody thinking otherwise can roll over and die ;)

Seriously speaking this very forum has in the last 8 months lost almost all the technically proficient members so I'm more than happy to have even one of them left.

[Fazares]

is he in his omnipotent mood.....?:lol:

[RzrWire]

Just a thought!

Actually I was thinking if a developer could get riled up so much as CPI for a gamer to take developers word out of context.

Then why should developers be exempt from the namecalling. I mean shouldn't we align all developers in the same line and call them morons, dimwits, SOB's, mother*****rs, liars for saying things such as 1/3power, promising the new trailer will be better than what's already shown. UT3 looking better now than Gears, Footage is realtime yet deep they know its CGI or mix of both, Fishing publishers with fake source material when the game isn't finished yet, etc etc

If every gamer is an idiot for saying so many things that baffle the mind, then all developers(everyone of 'em, you too angry man!) are a mean ugly lying mother#%&$3r for saying things that are far from the truth.

Picture has two sides, yeah?

2 cents. no offense.

John Carmack is a developer that comes to mind.

I don't believe developers are so much the ones to blame as it is the console manufacturer's corporate PRs at Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony, and at one point Sega and Atari to name a few. These are the people feeding gamers erroneous/misleading information. Not hard to imagine why so many "idiots" troll forums on a daily basis.

CPI ~ Does any of your upcoming articles discuss the accountability of the console manufacture's? How much blame should the consumers put on them?

I would like it if CPI spent more time educating us on topics like these (which he still is) instead of being pissed at the world and calling gamers idiots.


Two questions for you. Have you read any of CPI's posts in the past? Half the time I can't even decifer his educational teachings and attempts to "dumb down" the tech lingo he uses. What makes you think even a 1/3 of the people that read his article, let alone an educational piece, will comprehend the message being presented to them? Sometimes people need a good slap in the face.

[GTShotoKen]

Half the time I can't even decifer his educational teachings and attempts to "dumb down" the tech lingo he uses. What makes you think even a 1/3 of the people that read his article, let alone an educational piece, will comprehend the message being presented to them? Sometimes people need a good slap in the face.

Well I still think the article is good, but overly negative for its first part.

I wasn't angered by the article, but worried because CPI's words seemed to come off as "slapping" ignorant people for being...well...ignorant.

I personally think that he could have been more assertive about his piece to correct the bad habits of gamers. They are immediately turned away from the article if not from the title then after the first paragraph which isn't very helpful. Everyone that posted here who seemed to "benefit" from this article (including me) probably aren't the people who need to be reading it the most (I don't know for sure though).

I thought that CPI's article wasn't a slap to the face more than it was a kick to the nuts of it's aimed readers. Tough love taken to the extreme more or less...

Maybe parts 2 and 3 will put it into more perspective though. :)

Edit: When it comes to his actual posting of information. I'm glad he doesn't dumb it down for us (well too much). We have college for that. We ask him questions about technology and game development and he tells us like it is.

[cpiasminc]

I don't believe developers are so much the ones to blame as it is the console manufacturer's corporate PRs at Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony, and at one point Sega and Atari to name a few. These are the people feeding gamers erroneous/misleading information. Not hard to imagine why so many "idiots" troll forums on a daily basis
It can sometimes be a difficult thing to see who is actually saying what. I briefly mention things like "spinning", but more about the real purpose, which is typically less about "saying" and more about "not saying." I personally tend to blame the press more so than PR because that's often the place where the taking-out-of-context and cherry-picking-of-quotes occurs most frequently. All said, that's not the focus of the series, so I tend to stay more on the side of "learn to filter away the treacle without making an ass of yourself."

I recently found from a friend at EA that the actual quote about the "1/3 of the console's power" thing was actually one guy saying something along the lines of "about 1/3 of the way to what I think is achievable." It wasn't even meant to be representative of EA, but about one guy's personal interpretation of where the industry as a whole was at the time.

[GTShotoKen]

I don't actually know how it will ever be any easier for publishers or developers to give out information to "hype" their product.

They have to tell gamers how their new games of each generation has improved over the last without blowing things over their heads.

I think part of the problem is that so many games aren't so completely original or revolutionary that you can't really convey how much better the game is than it's last iteration, or games before it in the same genre, without describing what makes it better technically. That provides a problem too since your audience isn't so technically inclined, which leads to terrible generalizations and arbitrary numbers to convey a massive improvement.

[Viper]

If only the gaming industry would work more like the movie or book industry with regards to the media.

The film entire movies or write entire books before the media gets any real knowledge other than a synopsis, cast and crew credits and perhaps some other details.

The gaming industry is set up so that the media/gamers demand to be waked through every single fucking step.

The movie industry celebrates movies AFTER they get released (Oscars, etc...).
The games industry celebrates games PRIOR to release (E3, TGS, etc...).

[GTShotoKen]

If only the gaming industry would work more like the movie or book industry with regards to the media.

The film entire movies or write entire books before the media gets any real knowledge other than a synopsis, cast and crew credits and perhaps some other details.

The gaming industry is set up so that the media/gamers demand to be waked through every single fucking step.

The movie industry celebrates movies AFTER they get released (Oscars, etc...).
The games industry celebrates games PRIOR to release (E3, TGS, etc...).

Another problem is that it doesn't cost money for a script writer to write a script and pitch it to a movie studio or producer.

It costs a alot of money for a group of game developers to build even a prototype and pitch it to a publisher.

It's like a game has to be produced to be funded, which really punishes the growth of the industry imo.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Our industry is fickle and easily swayed. They have to constantly keep hype up to keep people's attention, so they can sell a quarter million copies.

[Viper]

A lot of movies work in a similar way. A small production house will make the film and shove it to any major studio they can for publishing and distribution.

E3 is/was a lot like Cannes with the above example I gave as a reference.

[curryking1]

I are idiot!? :(:(:(

[LaLiLuLeLo]

YEAH you are. But you're our idiot and we love you :D

[GTShotoKen]

I'm a genius, just not in things that are intelligent....http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa188/shmookins/emos/hero.gif

[curryking1]

Thanks! :cloud9: :P

[Generosity of God]

i feel like an idiot after reading that. but not as much as i would if i were one who actually comments about specs.

it all reminds me of a comment from either Iwata or Miyamoto. something roughly along the lines of "give a gamer one thing. then next thing has to exceed it by so much more. expectations are increasing exponentially more than reality." well something like that.

The people who think you can take a game made for 360/PS3 and port it to the Wii by simply pulling back on graphics. Yeah, you know who you are. And now you know something else. You’re an idiot.

i do think like that sometimes especially when i'm not thinking properly. usually it's more like "i'd like a Wii version of that game. of course it would look worse but i dont care so much as long as it plays well". i know that you can't just pull back graphics to make it work. but because i dont know about what process is needed, i just tend to comment about what i do know. and that is the graphics will not look as good on a Wii version. all in all, idiot = me.

however, all that makes me sad. why? it hurts my hopes of RE5 on Wii. oh how i long for that to happen.

[sikkinixx]

Our industry is fickle and easily swayed. They have to constantly keep hype up to keep people's attention, so they can sell a quarter million copies.

Nicely put.


At least with a movie, if it sucks you only wasted $10. If a game sucks you waste $60+...

[Saibo]

kind of abrasive don't you think? what's the point of this? If you want to inform misinformed people fine, but "Stop, drop, roll over and DIE... and the world will be a better place" is childish. We're better than that and editorials should be held to higher standards.

yeah, thats why the idiot is on my ignore list. Its kinda ironic...

[RzrWire]

I are idiot!? :(:(:(

U are Baboon! U are born idiot! Not U are fault. :uhh:

Sheep follow suit blindly on the basis of just how vehemently stupidity is espoused, and thus do we all get to see spelling erorrs and germatticl misteaks abound in an even otherwise vast expanse of stupidity so dense as to confound any quantum theory loyalist (if you don’t get that joke, don’t bother).

I think you made the stupid people suddenly more retarded by short circuiting many of their unused brain cells!

[cpiasminc]

I think you made the stupid people suddenly more retarded by short circuiting many of their unused brain cells!
I wonder how many people might have actually gotten that. I wouldn't be surprised if it was zero. It's kind of based on an obscure side-effect of quantum theory that people (even those familiar with the concepts) don't normally think about unless it explicitly comes up in discussion. I don't know why it sprang to mind for me, but it did.

[Viper]

I figured the joke was relating their mental density to quantum density.

Perhaps an unintended double entendre?

[cpiasminc]

I figured the joke was relating their mental density to quantum density.
Something like that. The "mental density" part is on the right path, and the point was that it was getting into infinite quantities, and quantum theory doesn't really "allow" that. The idea of a quantum theory loyalist being confounded is that the idea that you can't have infinite state is fundamental, but the experimental data shows conclusively that people actually can be infinitely stupid.

[Viper]

In other words, it's fun to call some one stupid when they can't comprehend the meaning behind the insult thereby validating the insult itself.

[RzrWire]

^ Understatement of the Year! Down right hilarious. Family Guy comes to mind now that I think about it.

EDIT: (Completely off topic)
Numbers are in an infinite state aren't they not? Time?

[Fazares]

cpiasmic will lead us to the knoweledge...i tell ya....

[cpiasminc]

EDIT: (Completely off topic)
Numbers are in an infinite state aren't they not? Time?
Conceptually, yes, but conceptualization is different from a model of reality. "Numbers" themselves are a conceptualization, so the idea of infiniti is a convenience for thinking about the point where quantities are so large that any otherwise "normal" number would have immeasurably small significance. Time is also perceived as continuous (which would make it infinite if true), but is quantized according to quantum model, so there would be a finite number of time "quanta" that have actually passed since time began.

[cliffbo]

i'm getting so fucking bored with all of this.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Well....go play your playstation. :shrug:

[Sephiroth_VII]

I know I'm late to the party, but I just wanted to say that I approve of what Cpi says, and find myself stuck in that unfortunate mood once in a while, though I think, and I hope that you guys agree, I'm not that bad :S

[GTShotoKen]

Conceptually, yes, but conceptualization is different from a model of reality. "Numbers" themselves are a conceptualization, so the idea of infiniti is a convenience for thinking about the point where quantities are so large that any otherwise "normal" number would have immeasurably small significance. Time is also perceived as continuous (which would make it infinite if true), but is quantized according to quantum model, so there would be a finite number of time "quanta" that have actually passed since time began.

Aren't the things (numbers in this situation) that we conceptualize finite by design since humans can't comprehend the unkown, and possibly limitless, reality we live in (that's why we conceptualize). Wouldn't that mean infinity and time are finite by design also?

Edit: Sorry, I just think this conversation is interesting. :)

[woundingchaney]

Aren't the things (numbers in this situation) that we conceptualize finite by design since humans can't comprehend the unkown, and possibly limitless, reality we live in (that's why we conceptualize). Wouldn't that mean infinity and time are finite by design also?

Edit: Sorry, I just think this conversation is interesting. :)

Depends on how one would associate the concept of infinity and time. If man simply recognizes the existence of them then they are not bound by the inherent creative limitations of the human mind. If we are under the assumption that man is the central nexus point to all that exists in the universe then I would have to say that ultimately they (and all other things) are bound by our imaginative limits.

This is under the assumption that man "cannot" understand the unknown or comprehend infinity (which Im not completely sure I agree with).

[Viper]

If anything this article proves the validity of infinity.

Like Einstein said, ""Two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former"

[Fazares]

wasnt this a videogame thread....sorta...?

[GTShotoKen]

wasnt this a videogame thread....sorta...?

Yes, but now it has evolved....evolved in to greatness!!!! http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa188/shmookins/emos/hero.gif

[Fazares]

Yes, but now it has evolved....evolved in to greatness!!!! http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa188/shmookins/emos/hero.gif
this forum is changing...a new breed is rising....

[curryking1]

Are you sure it evolved? If it did do anything, I'd say it just went from overall from stupid people to a group of slightly less stupid people, and that's starting from the real world of people which may be smarter than a forum group, so it like went down, then a bit up again maybe in 'smartipantsiness??'

It is a forum, and on the internet, so by default when it becomes a healthy sized forum it's still dumber than the average bear to start you know? :P

But we're lightyears ahead of everyone else, or maybe not that far but still ahead :):):)

[OmniCloud]

Are you sure it evolved? If it did do anything, I'd say it just went from overall from stupid people to a group of slightly less stupid people :)

It is a forum, and on the internet, so by default it's still dumber than the average bear to start you know? :P

But we're lightyears ahead of everyone else, or maybe not that far but still ahead :):):)QFT

[Fazares]

It is a forum, and on the internet, so by default it's still dumber than the average bear to start you know? :P
of couse..if the average bear is kuma...

[GTShotoKen]

Evolution is still evolution no matter how finite or small.

[cpiasminc]

Aren't the things (numbers in this situation) that we conceptualize finite by design since humans can't comprehend the unkown, and possibly limitless, reality we live in (that's why we conceptualize). Wouldn't that mean infinity and time are finite by design also?
I don't know if we conceptualize entirely in finite. For instance, we tend to see a lot of things as continuous. And continuity implies that even if you break it in half or whatever an infinite number of times, there's still continuity at every point. We look at the flow of time as continuous because the cues we get are happening on time scales that are massively large in the quantum sense, and so many things are happening at once at seemingly different speeds that it seems improbable at the face of it that time could actually be discrete. Looking at real numbers (as opposed to integers), we consider the number line as continuous -- even between 0 and 1, there are infinitely many values in that range. We long thought the universe was infinite in size because it was vastly enormous and there was no concrete perceptual cue that said it had to be finite (i.e. "what's at the end?"). That to us, is as good as infinite.

And indeed as Viper mentioned, stupidity is another good example of something that can be infinite in magnitude. And there's yet to be anything to prove otherwise. Why else would we have million-dollar game shows titled "Are you smarter than a 5th grader?" Apparently, there really is a severe lack of people who can say yes to that question.

[GTShotoKen]

Integrals FTW!!! http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa188/shmookins/emos/singer.gif

[OmniCloud]

I don't know if we conceptualize entirely in finite. For instance, we tend to see a lot of things as continuous. And continuity implies that even if you break it in half or whatever an infinite number of times, there's still continuity at every point. We look at the flow of time as continuous because the cues we get are happening on time scales that are massively large in the quantum sense, and so many things are happening at once at seemingly different speeds that it seems improbable at the face of it that time could actually be discrete. Looking at real numbers (as opposed to integers), we consider the number line as continuous -- even between 0 and 1, there are infinitely many values in that range. We long thought the universe was infinite in size because it was vastly enormous and there was no concrete perceptual cue that said it had to be finite (i.e. "what's at the end?"). That to us, is as good as infinite.

And indeed as Viper mentioned, stupidity is another good example of something that can be infinite in magnitude. And there's yet to be anything to prove otherwise. Why else would we have million-dollar game shows titled "Are you smarter than a 5th grader?" Apparently, there really is a severe lack of people who can say yes to that question.Nice post man...

but if you go any further with the infinite thing, your touching on uncharted territory IMO...

Somethings, aren't meant to be understandable by people, if you believe we have a creator, that concept (while annoying because you can't comprehend it) should be at least believable and within grasp of your psyche.

Trying to put a definition on some of the more complex things in life (vastness of universe, numbers, climate, time) it will only lead to theories, predictions, evidenced based hypothesis etc...

people in general, despite what science tells you, don't have the answers to MANY things we would like to. It's sad, that so many people rely on what other people "prove" for absolute meaning.

[Viper]

Omni, not long ago we thought the world was flat. Now we know better. A that point it was inconceivable that we'd know what we do now. To claim that we aren't meant to know things is to claim we should still live in the stone age.

Even if we are created, why is any of it forbidden? Wouldn't you be proud of something you created to learn so much?

[cpiasminc]

wasnt this a videogame thread....sorta...?
People have run out of things to say until part 2 is up. I don't know how the editing on that is going, but I'm in the meantime having to worry about something unrelated. I would rather not put up the raw content and then worry about proofreading later.

people in general, despite what science tells you, don't have the answers to MANY things we would like to.
At best they might say we have a model for something which is in some way correct. A big hamper in actually getting a correct result is that more often than not, what we acquire when verifying theories like quantum mechanics, isn't so much the exact activity or the particular particle/wave in question, but what was done by that activity. When Einstein proved atomic theory with the Brownian motion paper, he wasn't seeing atoms so much as an effect produced by the fact that atoms exist.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/98

[OmniCloud]

Omni, not long ago we thought the world was flat. Now we know better. A that point it was inconceivable that we'd know what we do now. To claim that we aren't meant to know things is to claim we should still live in the stone age.

Even if we are created, why is any of it forbidden? Wouldn't you be proud of something you created to learn so much?Agreed...

I'm not saying knowledge and educating yourself isn't important. Knowledge has gotten us where we are today--which is infinitely better than life was say 100 years ago.

However, there are SOME things that we will never understand. And when I say never, I mean exactly that--NEVER...

Why? I think it's because we do have a creator, and there's a limit to what we can comprehend as humans. Does that mean that we can't wonder/ponder and try to better ourselves. Course not, but, look how much more advanced we are-compared to where we are morally, on a global level.

I think there's too much focus on advancement and people are trying to mess with things that are already perfect in nature. Despite our advancements in living conditions, people overall--have hardly improved.

[Viper]

Moral advancement and scientific/technological advancement are unfortunately not paralleled. However, no point in stopping one for the other.


Human comprehension is as finite as the species existence. We will continue to learn and grasp ideas and advancements unthinkable today until we perish.

[cpiasminc]

However, there are SOME things that we will never understand. And when I say never, I mean exactly that--NEVER...
I would agree, but mainly because humanity on average is just too stupid to get past 1+1=2. The line between homo sapiens and homo superior is yet to be drawn.

I think it's because we do have a creator, and there's a limit to what we can comprehend as humans.
Hmmm... we're beating down a dangerous path here. The same that got the World Affairs board thrown out of whirl.

I think there's too much focus on advancement and people are trying to mess with things that are already perfect in nature. Despite our advancements in living conditions, people overall--have hardly improved.
Nature unfortunately, is not profitable enough.

[Fazares]

should we move this to an other section...btw...

[OmniCloud]

^Nah...I've said a little too much already, sry for derailing...unless Viper or CPI would like to continue...

It is a rather good discussion...and one that I would like to continue;)

+rep to both of you guys either way for post above...

[Viper]

It's pretty civilized thus far so we can continue. We've been considering the return of the World Affairs board and the more I have to judge the forums ability to handle such a forum, the more likely it will makes its return.

[cliffbo]

where`s the E3 video footage fella`s?

[woundingchaney]

where`s the E3 video footage fella`s?

Frosty is currently working on it and has ran into some complications.


This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with E3 footage as Im sure you are aware.

[OmniCloud]

It's pretty civilized thus far so we can continue. We've been considering the return of the World Affairs board and the more I have to judge the forums ability to handle such a forum, the more likely it will makes its return.In that case...I have to run to the supermarket, but I'll leave this with you..

Moral advancement and scientific/technological advancement are unfortunately not paralleled. However, no point in stopping one for the other.
I agree, but why is that so? In a place where advancement is prided and associated with bettering life, why is it that the moral aspect isn't even glanced at. It's not only worse, but the small quips and mentions of it are shun and a :whogives: attitude presents itself.

It is unfortunate, but I think it's more unfortunate than we give credit for...

Nature unfortunately, is not profitable enough.Money/Dominance/Control...it seems the majority of people in power won't be satisfied with what was already here until...

well, you probably see where I'm going;)

be back soon fellas

[Viper]

It's not given as much limelight as science for the simple fact that morality is a personal issue. Morality is also subjective to each. There are too many gray areas that can't be qualified specifically.

Science also drives people, it excites people, the rush of discovery, the feeling of proving a theory is incredible. It's hard to find that same kind of drive in moral advancement.

[woundingchaney]

I agree, but why is that so? In a place where advancement is prided and associated with bettering life, why is it that the moral aspect isn't even glanced at. It's not only worse, but the small quips and mentions of it are shun and a :whogives: attitude presents itself.


Primarily because moral advancement is rationalized by those suggesting it. Varying cultures/religions/creeds etc. often disagree as to what should "morally" be imposed upon the people. In combination with the notions of democracy and increased levels of freedom people begin associating "rights" to moral character. I suppose its possible as a race or a civilization for us all to rapidly advance into higher levels of moral state but only if we eliminate individuality, nationality, ethnicity, and a host of other characteristics and social influences one may define or associate themselves with (and then we find ourselves subject to totalitarian control). With such a notion one must understand that it would be necessary to impose onto other how we feel they should act, think, say etc.

Such things cannot proceed at the break neck speeds of say science as "morality" is a very personal concept/understanding.

[Leedogg]

CP very good read bro :thumbl:

[OmniCloud]

Well said Wounding & Viper...I agree, that in order for people to reach a level of higher morality MANY things would have to be altered, and most importantly, unwillingly done away with.

So, while I've stated that things like morality, peace, and how people treat each other should be at the forefront of politicians speeches and the media/government's interest, I doubt it'll ever happen.

"It does not belong to man walking...even to direct his own step."

Our potential is probably limitless, and sure tomorrow people will discover/invent things that we thought impossible today. But, I doubt we'll ever have the guidance and maturity to put all that potential to it's best use.

While far from perfect, there's still a lot of good to see...just wish there was more.

[RzrWire]

Good example of the limitless bounty of human incompetence:

Many people say look how far we've come since the turn of the 20th century, and yet I can't help but feel we haven't moved an inch since the turn of the 21st. Maybe besides Japan, or even Switzerland, and as of late China, but the rest of the industrial world seems to be very resistant to change right now. We should be miles ahead of where we are today and yet...

Example: We should have already been driving hydrogen, electrical, and ethanol powered vehicles for close to 30 years already. We had the technology to develope these automobiles back in the 50's and 60s, but gas was cheap the world was happy where they were. Today we are starting to pay the price of our incompetence.

[indiekid4]

reading all this...i can't help but be reminded of this NWO thing...NEw World Order. How they want to bring the entire world under one world government. I hear so much about it, the illuminati, and all.

Have any of you been to the Denver International Airport? It's a VERY odd and strainge airport to say the least. Some of the morals there are very disturbing and statues. Here is a link to a guys webpage who explains his expierence at this airport. He also took pictrues of the morals there. Check it out...it's a long read but very interesting stuff:

Link: http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Denver_Airport.html

[makeitlookreal]

You know who you are and need to speak the truth. That's right, don't deny it any longer it's time to be truthful. You are a graphics whore.

No, don't run. Sit down and relax. Cold beverages are in the cooler on the coffee table. I'm not here to call you an idiot, claim you're the lowest form of pond scum, or say you should die some horrible death. The truth of the matter is that I'm a graphics whore too!

So you see, I already know you inside and out. You love great graphics, tend to purchase the games with the most visual eye candy, and can pick out visual flaws in screenshots a mile from your computer screen. In addition, you always demand the best and complain when it seems developers are not putting all they can into a game. How do I know all of this? I'm similar in many ways!

Quite frankly, some people call you idiots, scum, and insult you in every way they can. However, you are not doing anything wrong. You are a consumer with a personal preference and use your dollars to purchase games that match up with the preference. Regardless what anyone says, there is not a darn thing wrong with that!

I know it's frustrating when some individuals attack you, but don't let it get to you. The truth is that most of the time they attack you out of ignorance. They simply don't realize that you appreciate great animation, sound, physics, fantastic story lines, and entertaining gameplay. Who does not love those things? To not like those things would simply be illogical as a gamer. For a gamer not to like those things would be like a money hungry person turning down a stack of 100 dollar bills because he liked the pretty shine of pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters instead. Quite frankly, that just doesn't happen. We the graphic whores of the gaming world love these features just like everyone else.

The difference is we care about one particular aspect of a game more than anything else, and that's graphics. In our opinion, everything else in a game counts and is indeed important. But our measuring stick is indeed the graphical goodness of a game!

Don't let anyone tell you that it's stupid to use graphics as a measuring stick. If great graphics are your most significant gaming preference then using graphics as a measuring stick is the ONLY LOGICAL CHOICE. Please do not stop using that measuring stick for a single moment, because it's your absolute right to use it.

By using your most important preference as a measuring stick when choosing games you are sending a message to the game developers telling them what you like! Also, by not purchasing games that don't match up with your preference you are sending a message that anything that does not match up with your preference is unacceptable to you. Always remember, you're the consumer and your gaming dollars have CLOUT regardless what anyone tries to tell you.

In addition, there are more graphic whores out there than you realize. You are not alone. If you were alone then there would not be games coming along that have 20 million dollar budgets. Why? Because developers don't make games with great graphics out of the goodness of their heart. They make games with great graphics because they know that there are a ton of people who want the game with the best graphics. Quite frankly, there is competition out there to make the best looking games.

That competition exists because of millions and millions of graphic whoring gamers just like you!

Do you realize what this means? You are having an IMPACT! It's because of YOUR dollars that games like Killzone 2, Resident Evil 5, Lair, Rachet and Clank, MGS4 and others are going to be so awesome looking! For years you have helped create a demand for graphically top notch games and you're loyalty to graphic whoring is paying off!

However, I do want to address another issue. There are some graphic whores that simply don't understand the technical nature of gaming or gaming hardware. Those individuals make the rest of us look bad, because they make ridiculous statements. They think just because some random developer claims they could put ten times more tasks on the SPEs of the PS3 that eventually games are going to look ten times as good. That's simply not the case.

It's also not the case that the three 3.2 gigahertz processors equal one 9 gigahertz processor. It's also not the case that streaming textures from the HDD can make up for gigabytes of RAM. Additionally, we now know enough about the RSX to realize although it's a decent GPU it's not anything spectacular (although there was nothing wrong with us being hopeful for a while before the PS3 launched).

We need to strive to educate our fellow graphic whores about these technical issues. Because certain individuals will use it against all of us and try to lump us all together in one group with the technologically less savvy among us.

However, with reason we do NOT need to stop being optimistic that games this generation still have a long way to evolve and improve graphically. Are they going to be ten times better? No, but they will be significantly better than they are now!

Additionally, we need to hold our ground and continue to demand the absolute most from game developers. We CANNOT forget to praise them for great animation, physics, storylines, and gameplay. They deserve credit for these things. We cannot forget that. However, a games graphics is not up to par we MUST speak up, we MUST voice our opinions, and MUST call for the developers to make the game be ALL IT CAN BE graphically!

If it means spending more money on a game or spending more time on a game then so be it! They don't "have" to do anything we say. It's their right to design their game how they see fit. However, we also have the right to speak our minds and voice our opinions.

Other people voice their opinion loudly when gameplay sucks, the storyline is cheesy, the physics is not good, or the animation is stiff. We have the same right to voice our opinion when the graphics are not up to par!

Are we sometimes overly optimistic? Yes, but that's not a bad thing. If we demand just a little bit more than what is possible it at least means that developers know we won't accept anything less than what IS indeed possible.

Also, it's important that as a graphics whore you stand up and proclaim it loudly along with all your fellow graphic whores. Some people criticize us, mock us, tease us, and even call us rude names. We have even been told to go and die because we are scum. However, we must continue forward and not backwards, upwards and not downwards, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards graphical greatness!

[VG Aficionado]

*grabs popcorn*

[Fats]

Oh gawd...

[nemesis121]

Wtf........................................

[Jay Gee]

tldr;

[Epix]

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/news/2004/images/mushroom_web.jpg

(seriously: I appreciate the post MILR)

[makeitlookreal]

Epix,

Thank you! I'm glad you like the post.

It's my true and honest feelings about the graphics issue that has been raging on this forum.

[dnpmakkah]

I'm with you on this one MILR. I wouldn't say i'm as much a graphics whore as you are but I do tend to FIRST look at what a game looks like visually before I move onto the other aspects of it. Does that make me an idiot? Not in my eyes it doesn't especially since I know where video gaming stands in the pecking order of life.

Oh and my two cents on this is that video gaming isn't 'that' important in the scheme of life. It's just a good way to have some fun and I don't give a PHUCK if some person spits out misinformed quotes/number/figures that are wrong about pixels/shaders/lighting, whatever it may be because in the end it really doesn't matter. People are dying from starvation and disease while others are being killed due to 'collateral damage' so it doesn't bother me the slightest if somebody is into graphics or is misinformed about video gaming since it's all just a drop in the pond in the real world.

[makeitlookreal]

dnpmakkah,

Yes, that is what I'm trying to say. You are NOT an idiot for using graphics as an initial measuring stick. Also, being a graphics whore does NOT mean that you ignore other aspects of a game. I for one do indeed care about physics, animation, store line, gameplay, and other aspects. But I am NOT ashamed to say that the visual attractiveness is what pulls me into a game and is what's most important to me even though other stuff ALSO MATTERS TOO!

[CreativeWriter]

I haven't found the time to read CPI's essay (I will soon), but I can say that I was turned off by the tone glancing at it yesterday. Authoritarian, caustic, self-aggrandizing. I know this was meant as humor, but following closely behind Viper's critique, I can't help but be turned off by how impolite these arguments are becoming. I respect most anyone who debates with reason, yet reason clouded by self-righteousness is little better than FUD, since it generates the same reaction in this reader: combativeness. Looks like it did in MILR, too. +rep.

[Gegenki]

Time for me to start work on Super Pong HD
It will be 60Hz at 1080p utilising full HDR.

Ah the dream

But seriously, milr you're funny, I like the fact that you thinking carefully about what you like and not taking whatever people give you even if in my own opinion you're a lil misguided

[Media]

I like this post, simply because the editorial on the front page was not a slap on the face, just douche-ish.

I, personally, am not a graphics whore, although I do like pretty games. I mostly like games for storylines, characters, and fun. That's why most of the games I play are Japanese-developed.

[Cyrus]

Great stuff. :D MILR is just something else.. truly enthusiastic of the things he's enthusiastic about. I respect that. ;)

[makeitlookreal]

Creative Writer,

Thanks for the + Rep! I appreciate it.

I thought CPI's essay brought up some good points, but the tone of it was very authoritarian and rude. I like CPI a lot and think he is probably a genius! But at the same time I did not like how he lumped everyone who uses graphics as a measuring stick into one group of people of which he started to insult.

People are different and have different preferences. In my opinion, he was lumping together people with different preferences along with those that have no knowledge of the technical aspects of gaming technology. That was unfair in my opinion.

Also, I tried to make the point that graphic whoring is good, because it's resulted in some amazing graphics and will result in additional amazing graphics. Our gaming dollars have spoken and we are seeing the results with PS3 games like Drake's Fortune, Killzone 2, MGS4, Heavenly Sword, etc.

[Hisham]

I ask all of you who agree, were you Xbox fans last gen?

Because PS2 was the worst system graphically and Sony fanboys made it seem like graphics don't matter much, but now that PS3 is the most powerful, people seem to jump on the graphics bandwaggon and make it seem like graphics are the only important thing.

Xbox fanboys are doing the same thing tho, so don't think I'm just issolating you guys. I for one think that if you have a view, you should stick to it. And if you do change your opinion, justify it rather than being stupid about it.

I agree tho, if you always were using graphics as a measuring stick, continue to do so. There is nothing wrong with putting graphics above other items... But if you just started now because the PS3 is the most powerful system, I would say your a either a hypocrit, or just a rabbid fanboy.

I myself don't really care much about graphics and could give two shits about the HD era. But if you look at graphics beyond anything else, you would have had more Gamecube and Xbox games last gen. And you would probably jump at the chance to get Gears of War seeing as the graphics of that game are still probably seciond to none.

And don't say that it is irrelevent to the discussion to bring up the PS2 or PS1 were not the most powerful system during there time. If you have always been a graphics whore, then you would have only begun to support Sony seeing as this is the first time that they have had the most powerful system.

Graphics don't make games in my opinion. You can disagree if you like, but my opinion has always been the same. From back when I got a PS1 to when I got my Gamecube and PS2 and then 360 and PS3 (and possibly Wii if I can ever find one). I have always held gameplay above everything else and the software each console has.

Good read nonetheless, I just thought I'd give you some stuff to think about.

[dnpmakkah]

Nope I owned a PS2 and had the same mentality. Graphics is what draws me to a game first then the other aspects trickle in. It's just a part of life for me. I want a car that looks good, a girl that looks good, a house that looks good and gosh darnit a video game that looks good.

[Segitz]

Yes yes, graphics^^

Growing up with a Atari VCS 2600, C64, Amiga 500 and my Mega Drive (Genesis), I will say, graphics only matter partially to me.

Why? Well, because I grew up on "gameplaye games" (because the systems back then were nowhere near as powerful as even the PS1), so I can gladly see past lower end graphics. But that doesnt mean, I don't cherish good graphics.


People, you need to look past the black and white there is today. It is not only graphics whores and gameplay whores. There are people in between, the grey zone, like me, who want both to be perfect, or just a good mixture... Merely a game that's fun and is worth its money.


And usually, the real graphics whores don't play "kiddy console games". The real whores sit where we do usually, when reading this forum. At high end pcs, which already can push better graphics out the pipe than any console available today could wish for.


And please Milr, don't say, DEVS are lazy. They mostly are NOT. It's just like in real life. As an engineer, I have to obey certain timelines and budgets. If I frequently don't obey these, I get fired. The same goes for a DEV team. If they cannot manage a game in a certain timeframe and budget, it gets disbanded. Often, those games that look inferior are either lower budget games or need to meet a certain timeframe (think movie games or xmas)... The game industry is a freakin fast moving industry. There's a breaking point every ~5 years with each iteration of a new console.

[cpiasminc]

Don't let anyone tell you that it's stupid to use graphics as a measuring stick. If great graphics are your most significant gaming preference then using graphics as a measuring stick is the ONLY LOGICAL CHOICE.
You obviously missed out on a lot within the editorial. The key thing you're missing again and again and don't seem to have the ability to pick up on is that it wasn't about graphics as "a" measuring stick, but as "the" measuring stick.

The very first paragraph under that subheading mentions about the association of graphics advancement with similar advancement in all areas of game technology, which is patently false.

We CANNOT forget to praise them for great animation, physics, storylines, and gameplay. They deserve credit for these things. We cannot forget that.
The other thing to reme