Official GTAIV Scrutiny Thread

[OmniCloud]

Why does Gta4 suck? Well, there's more than one reason believe it or not. Despite the success and huge popularity of Rockstar's latest iteration of there precious franchise, I still can't shake the feeling of deja vu, when playing this title-and it's not a good one either.

Gta4's protagonist, Nico, starts off as a somewhat different character. He doesn't have any plans to take over the city, to become some crime lord, and genuinely seems to just want nice things for himself and to start a new life. We quickly find out more and more about his past and the real reasons he actually comes to America. Sounds good right? WRONG!

After the first 4-6 missions (depending on the player of course) Nico has already gone through about 7 bodies. Hardly different that any of the other "heroes" of past games. In fact, I find this one to be hilarious in it's nature, because it paints a picture of Nico as a tormented individual, with a huge load on his back, yet he kills just about anyone for money! What's even more funny is Nico's artificial speeches about what happened to him in his past. Wow, yes, I can see how tormented this guy really is, so sad:spit:

Granted, it's admirable that Rockstar is at least trying to have a real story, but from the beginning, the story feels tacked on and average to say the least. Not to mention the vulgar humor in Rockstar can sometimes be funny, sometimes be annoying, and sometimes simply be insulting. I mean, who really curses that much walking down the street? Thank you Rockstar, for assuming I have the humor level of a 14 year old, and think dropping multiple f-bombs in one sentence is entertaining. I truly appreciate the sentiments. The language in Gta4 once again- screams-OVERDONE and EXAGGERATED.

So what does this game do right? Well for starters, the camera controls are very unique, and gives the game a cinematic feel. The art direction is also very good, and the soundtrack is varied and amusing. Cool tidbits like watching TV, going online, having your cellphone to carry out your missions and setup dates is a nice unique touch that adds style to the game. Above all, gta4 is open-ended, you can do just about whatever you want. Which is always fun. But really, how fun can it be to play a game that masters not even one genre? If you've already experienced the joy of sandbox, it's nothing new anymore. Now, I just want a reason to play in my sandbox--and this is where Rockstar once again, fails miserably.

The controls are improved, but once again crappy.
frame-rate is hardly improved--and well, crappy.
graphics are greatly improved for a gta title, and that's understandable for how much stuff is in the game, but certainly not the prettiest title you will come across.
story seems tacked on, and like previous games, feels like an incomplete 3rd person shooter for many of the missions your given. "Nico, duck, wait, shoot, no turn this way dammit:whip:"
Humor is mostly sarcasm, which gets old rather quick, and the dialog sounds like it was written by a 8th grade illiterate street thug, yet sometimes it can be quite movie-like and charming. Hardly balanced anyway you look at it.

So why does the game suck you say? Obviously, there's a lot of good things about gta4. I'm at the point where I'm forcing myself to play (just to say yes, I beat the game and still think it sucks) but I still find myself chuckling or smiling everyone now and then. It's apparent this isn't the worst game you can buy. But why, why oh why is this title so HEAVILY PRAISED?!?!

My theory is simply this--today, people are more inclined to find humor and entertainment in vulgarity, even when it's smothered with mediocrity.

What other reason is there really? Gta4 is nothing special underneath the surface. Take away the script and what do you have? An average shooter/driver with a crappy frame-rate and average graphics. So why didn't it get a 8.7 or an 8.5? (which after the 4th game I think is being generous) Because people love the fact that you can get a girlfriend and listen to her pre-recorded moan after "trying your luck"

People love the fact that in one mission your driving around miss daisy, and the next killing her husband--it's called variety. Going to a strip club or banging a whore in an alley. Making friends with a pot-head and then going out of your way to kill his enemies who have nothing to do with you, oh oh wait--Nico is "deeply disturbed" by his past, awww how touching...

I've never seen so much hype and praise for something so pathetic. Sure there's a lot of fun to be had in gta4, but to even consider this game to be in the likes of SotC or MGS, Zelda-OOT, Mario 64 or Galaxy, FF7 and the first Gta3 is not only selling those title short, but essentially giving Rockstar a free pass to regurgitate out anything they desire and people will still swallow their throw-up with a yummy expression on there face as they chew:pleased:

Rockstar still hasn't taken anything to the next-level, they have just assured themselves, that crap, with whipped cream on top, is still good enough for millions of gamers;) Screw you Rockstar, and screw the media for over-hyping this nonsense:moon: Gta4 is certainly revolutionary. It's the start of polished games, without substance.

Thanks goodness for Nintendo and PSN titles;)












ps.Yeah I know, there's many who will disagree, but wow--I've never been so disappointed in my life, I simply had to vent:pinky: also my anger isn't toward anyone who likes the game, it's more at the media's infinite praise of the series and particularly this last iteration.

[SuperLuigiBros]

I dont dislike the game, but theres no way it deserves to be rated higher than... well, every game in existence. Sure, its a good game, but thats just the problem. Its just good. Not even great, let alone excellent. I dont know what the hell is going on in this industry when something as generic as GTA4 is seen as the perfect game for its time. Especially when truly original and innovative games like Galaxy, Uncharted, Bioshock and others are still more or less fresh off the shelves.

[gibmonster]

I dont dislike the game, but theres no way it deserves to be rated higher than... well, every game in existence. Sure, its a good game, but thats just the problem. Its just good. Not even great, let alone excellent. I dont know what the hell is going on in this industry when something as generic as GTA4 is seen as the perfect game for its time. Especially when truly original and innovative games like Galaxy, Uncharted, Bioshock and others are still more or less fresh off the shelves.

Agreed. I was excited the first few times I popped the disc in, but after some time with it and letting the hype die down. It doesn't really deserve the critical acclaim it has received. The improvements and additions to the game were to be EXPECTED. However, problems in previous games still exist. Taking these into account, I gotta say that not much has really changed. I will say that the story goes on less of a tangent than SA.

It's a good game though. Just not the game a lot of people are making it out to be.

[Hisham]

As much as I agree Omni, again, this could have been in the GTA4 thread.

[Smokey]

the controls are the worst part of the game. definately not a 10

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Doy dee doy dee doy dee doy dee doyyyy!

[Viper]

I changed the thread title and undeleted/unlocked it.

GTAIV is now ranked the highest game of all time and with that comes the highest level of scrutiny of all time. This thread will serve the purpose of allowing those who feel the hype is unjustified.

You may of course debate against the scrutiny but do so in a respective manner.

[cliffbo]

My theory is simply this--today, people are more inclined to find humor and entertainment in vulgarity, even when it's smothered with mediocrity.

that was a good read! and the above certainly hit a chord with me

[masteratt]

I think GTA4 being the most highest rating game says something about how bad this gen is instead of saying how jaw droppingly awesome GTA4 is.

Most reviews end saying this is simply the best package al around (gameplay/ technical/ story) they've seen when it comes to this gen and it's hard to point to a game that does the many things GTA4 does with that much greatness.

I think Ted Price sums it up the best, he was talking about GTA/GTA4 here:
To have this many components put into one game and not have it fall apart is simply genius.
That wasn't a word by word quote but that's what he said.

I have yet to be amazed/ shocked and be immersed as I was when I've played GTA4 and technnically it still wows me, even after 48hours of gameplay.

Oh and by the way, it took me 47 hours to complete, before that the longest game was Ratchet which took me around 11hours or something.

It simply beats lots of games in almost all departments and as GTA is known to do just raises the bar once again, it may not WOW you but it WOWed many others believe me.

The bit about Niko in your post just gave me a huge WTF.
That to me says you went into a game with a negative vibe and found every stupid thing possible.
Niko is BY FAR the best GTA character and I think is one of the best characters I had the pleasure of guiding through a great (sometimes boring) story.

I truly believe those who don't like GTA4 go in to it either expecting unrealistic things or with a "OMG THIS GOT A 10?!?! LETS SEE IF THIS SHIT ACTUALLY DESERVES!!!" attitude.

But if you let's say....TRY TO JUST ENJOY IT, it will be one of the most amazing experiences of this gen for you, almost guaranteed.

[Jay Gee]

While I am enjoying the game immensely, the controls still need some work. Also, this game STILL suffers from asshole traffic that almost intentionally blocks your path during a high speed chase, causing you to either crash or just lose your target. To add to that, it also seems like the trend of getting a car that normally handles fine when you're not chasing anyone suddenly handling like shit when you need to hawk someone down. For all of these irksome flaws to still be around for this title's next-gen iteration upsets me.

Was this post within the new boundaries of the thread?

[dnpmakkah]

I'll be damned if Zelda:TP was to be the highest ranked game of all time.

[jaxmkii]

Doy dee doy dee doy dee doy dee doyyyy!

humm yes could you elaborate on this? im intrested to learn more.

[cliffbo]

this seems to be the right place to post this. i still chuckle to myself when i think of the thread i started way back and posters were adamant that frame rate would never be an issue lol

GTA IV Face-Off Frame-Rates and FAQ

Blog entry by Tom Bramwell

Following on from last Thursday's Grand Theft Auto IV: PS3 vs. Xbox 360 Special, author Rich Leadbetter told me that he'd found an even more precise way of measuring average frame-rates and wanted to update you on this. He also thought it would be a good idea to answer a few of the more commonly asked questions about his methodology. The Frame Rate Tests section of the piece has now been tweaked accordingly, and here's Rich's commentary on it:

The Xbox 360 vs PlayStation 3 GTAIV face-off certainly caused some controversy across forums far and wide, partly because it contained what is most likely the first ever frame-rate test for a console game; tests we're going to continue in future face-off coverage.

Most of the controversy seemed to surround the fact that 360's results would be influenced by the inclusion of frames subject to v-lock screen tear. Over the weekend I worked with notable tech experts, including the now infamous 'Quaz51' in refining the frame-rate detector. It's now extremely sensitive to the point where it can detect frame-rate even on a static screen (i.e. a car moving at 0mph).

More than that, we can now detect how many torn frames there are in any clip.

The GTA piece has now been updated with the new data, but in the interests of openness, here are the revised results, alongside the old ones.

Test1
Old 360: 31.990fps
Old PS3: 26.460fps
New 360: 31.627fps (3.77% torn frames in full capture)
New PS3: 26.504fps

Test2
Old 360: 28.624fps
Old PS3: 23.452fps
New 360: 29.233fps (4.26% torn frames in full capture)
New PS3: 23.989fps

Test3
Old 360: 35.252fps
Old PS3: 29.041fps
New 360: 35.662fps (2.37% torn frames in full capture)
New PS3: 29.523fps

Test4
Old 360: 26.076fps
Old PS3: 26.081fps
New 360: 26.015fps (6.07% torn frames in full capture)
New PS3: 25.803fps

Test5
Old 360: 26.712fps
Old PS3: 23.781fps
New 360: 26.507fps (4.9% torn frames in full capture)
New PS3: 23.781fps

Test6
Old 360: 33.798fps
Old PS3: 28.313fps
New 360: 33.713fps (2.35% torn frames in full capture)
New PS3: 28.313fps

A few common questions and answers then, to explain the results and to answer some questions that have arisen since the article was published.

1. What does the torn frame percentage actually mean?
Regardless of the game performance, the video output of the Xbox 360 (and indeed PS3) pumps out 60 frames per second. So in the case of Test1, for example, over the course of the entire clip, 3.77 percent of the frames were torn. So it's not 3.77 percent of the measured frame-rate, but of the complete 60Hz output of the console's video processor.
2. Why bother including this stat?
Screen tear can have a huge impact on picture quality. For example on one test I did on the Race Driver GRID demo, 360 ran at a constant 30fps while PS3 averaged at 28.76fps. Not so much difference there you might think, until you factor in that almost 40 percent of the 60Hz output of the PS3 version was torn frames, versus 0 percent on 360.
3. Why haven't the 360 scores been adjusted downwards by the torn frame percentages?
For the same reason that the v-locked PS3 results have also changed - the scanner itself is now far more precise. Weirdly, the imprecision in the old version mostly compensated for the v-lock issue, so by and large the results haven't really changed that much.
4. If GTA IV on Xbox 360 isn't v-locked, why is the amount of torn frames so low?
Actually it dynamically switches between two different v-lock settings (versus one on PS3) only dropping out of sync very rarely - around two percent to six percent of the time. More than that, the tearing will usually only appear in areas of the screen you don't see (the overscan area of your display), making it even less of an issue.
5. How accurate can the tests be bearing in mind changes in lighting, weather, traffic, people etc?
The whole point of multiple tests is to produce an average, an overall trend if you will. The captures were taken with the same weather conditions and at the same time of day on both consoles. The only variable would be people and cars on the streets in the outdoor scenes. For a truly 1:1 comparison, Test1 is of the entire intro sequence which should be identical on both machines. Test3 is indoors and again should be like-for-like.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=139270

[masteratt]

See it quickly became BASH GTA4! thread again......I think Viper needs to make it more clear on why he re-opened this thread.

People seem to not get this so to clarify: I'm not saying don't bash the game ever, please go ahead at your own will but to have a thread JUST for bashing a game is simply retarded.

[cliffbo]

See it quickly became BASH GTA4! thread again......I think Viper needs to make it more clear on why he re-opened this thread.

People seem to not get this so to clarify: I'm not saying don't bash the game ever, please go ahead at your own will but to have a thread JUST for bashing a game is simply retarded.

well if a game is going to be 'scrutinised' you can't expect it to be praised only. if it isn't perfect then i think it's a legitimate argument... although i will still get this game myself, it's only fair that those who are disappointed have their say.

[the boney king of nowhere.]

i played it last night. it's a great game.

[cliffbo]

i played it last night. it's a great game.

see it's not all negative :)

[Sephiroth_VII]

While I am enjoying the game immensely, the controls still need some work. Also, this game STILL suffers from asshole traffic that almost intentionally blocks your path during a high speed chase, causing you to either crash or just lose your target. To add to that, it also seems like the trend of getting a car that normally handles fine when you're not chasing anyone suddenly handling like shit when you need to hawk someone down. For all of these irksome flaws to still be around for this title's next-gen iteration upsets me.

Was this post within the new boundaries of the thread?
Once you learn how to drive in GTA, it's not that hard. Here's a hint, stay the fuck off R1 and X, L2 is your best friend.

And about traffic blocking your path during chases; it's intentional, obviously.

[dnpmakkah]

It really annoys me when I'm trying to lose my wanted level or chase someone during a mission and cars randomly switch lanes right in front of me or they take the worlds widest left turns right as I'm thinking they're not going to do it. lol

[jaxmkii]

or when the auto aim alwats goes for civilans first.

[cliffbo]

or when the auto aim alwats goes for civilans first.

really. surely that could have been so easily rectified

[jaxmkii]

lol just make civillans a nontarget durring missions.

[Sephiroth_VII]

That was annoying yes, but really not a game breaker.

[cliffbo]

lol just make civillans a nontarget durring missions.

or make it so it defaults to the baddies in such circumstances

[jaxmkii]

its patchable

[masteratt]

It really annoys me when I'm trying to lose my wanted level or chase someone during a mission and cars randomly switch lanes right in front of me or they take the worlds widest left turns right as I'm thinking they're not going to do it. lol

Hahaha, yeah I'll give you that.

This happened ever since GTA3.
It leaves you in a "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?!?!" state.



I turned auto-aim off after like 10% progress, it made the game too boring for me.

[CARTIER90]

Bravo to the OP.....the framerate is dogshit...an absolute fucking tragedy...try evading police on 3 stars, forget 6 !. Its unoptimized, rushed, and simply too much for the consoles to handle.

The gunplay is fucking great it has to be said.....a 8.5 /10 would have been fair, 10 is a joke.

[Jay Gee]

Auto Aim was far too clunky for me. I realized that AA was actually the reason I was stinking up the joint on Three Leaf Clover. I turned it off and got a lot further than I normally would since I throw grenades at the right distance at my leisure, and also aim at people who were actually shooting at me as opposed to just standing around. Just need to hike the sensitivity up a few more notches, and I'm good to go.

[cliffbo]

Bravo to the OP.....the framerate is dogshit...an absolute fucking tragedy...try evading police on 3 stars, forget 6 !. Its unoptimized, rushed, and simply too much for the consoles to handle.

The gunplay is fucking great it has to be said.....a 8.5 /10 would have been fair, 10 is a joke.

i doubt that... i'd blame the devs not the console

[CARTIER90]

yeah, fair one ^^^ but then it wouldnt have been released till 2010.....

TT needed their end - no big hits for a while...

[cliffbo]

yeah, fair one ^^^ but then it wouldnt have been released till 2010.....

TT needed their end - no big hits for a while...

cue myself and Jax suggesting why it's not as good as it should be... :look:

[masteratt]

There is no freakin' question 360 held this game back.

6.8GB- 360.
10.4GB- PS3.

See even with 360 bogging the game down, Rockstar used the extra space for uncompressed sound I guess?

[Sephiroth_VII]

I'm thinking textures. They look a lot clearer in the PS3 version, IMO.

Maybe better sound as well, but damn, imagine how this game could've been if they'd had 50 GB to play with.

[masteratt]

I'm not too worried about that this time around with this being the first next-gen GTA game and PS3 devkits arriving later, dunno if they could have properly filled 50GB (or near it).

However next GTA better not be held down to 7GBs!
And Rockstar DID say, MS "better find a solution" and they also said "there are a few ways we can suggest".

I think there were rumours they are planning to (for next GTA) have 360 version come with a USB stick or something and you have to have it plugged in so the game reads the data from the USB and the disc allowing for a bigger than 7GB experience.

I dunno some confusing shit like that......Us Ps3 owners just put in the disc lol :/

[Sephiroth_VII]

I think they should just use more than one disc, and force people to change when crossing bridges. Seems logical to me.

[FantasyGhost]

lol just make civillans a nontarget durring missions.But i like a carmageddon sequel.

[cliffbo]

I think they should just use more than one disc, and force people to change when crossing bridges. Seems logical to me.

that would be against R*s philosophy. they have three options:

1 have more than one disk and make it more linear

2 make it a Blu-ray exclusive

3 make an install mandatory on both consoles

and this bring me neatly back to what i've been banging on about for an age now. you can't have a mandatory install on 360 because not everyone has the Elite or a hard drive at all.... and at 50GB it would have to be an Elite. if they make it Blu-ray exclusive it isn't going to appear on the 360 even if they produce a Blu-ray 360 because there are now 18 million users who would have to buy an add on (and could they make it work with an external drive?) this is why i question the 'Arcade' and no doubt so will R*.

[dnpmakkah]

It leaves you in a "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?!?!" state.That's pretty much exactly the way I say it too. Makes me want to physically jump through my screen into the game world and beat the crap out of them when that happens.

[Killing Moon]

This whole overhyping fiasco that’s going on with GTAIV is nothing new to this industry. It’s as old a hat as the credibility of the “media” gaming has.

Game scores are dictated by two simple things. Hard driven marketing and popularity. If one of these two factors, god forbid BOTH are concentrated on, then we’ll hear high praises whether they’re deserved or not.

Nostalgia plays a strong part also, but that’s a different subject altogether, really.

Considering that our American society prides itself on being fashionably moronic and shallow, games like GTAIV go right up our alley perfectly. It doesn’t have to make sense, it doesn’t necessarily have to have depth either. Just be easy accessible, somewhat pretty and keep the learning curve fairly low. Oh and of course, make sure the meat of the gameplay falls into the lines of what’s popularly stupid.

I stood by GTA3 and San Andreas for awhile back in the day. But, now it’s predictably become a money machine rather than pushing any type of creative medium mostly. At least this is how it seems, I don’t know.

This is however not regulated only to GTAIV though. I’ve seen too many games garner IMMENSE amounts of praise for being steeped in stagnation and mediocrity. Praise created by frothing fans and obviously biased media. So to be fair, I don’t think anyone here should be cursing GTAIV for what it’s doing to catch sales, while at the same time supporting titles like Halo, NBA Live, Gran Turismo or the latest Zelda when they’re all equally guilty of the same crimes. In fact, nearly all of the big mainstream titles are guilty of this. I just think it tastes a bit like hypocrisy, really.

GTA only makes their mark more blatant by directly appealing to the core coolness idiocy of common sheep. The obvious MTV’ers, I guess you could say.

Man, the film industry has its fair share of flaws, but I’d much rather have their barbaric media and audiences any day rather than what we’re stuck with in gaming most of the time.



BTW, I love Naughty Dog to death. But how the fuck is Uncharted original or innovative in any way?

[Jay Gee]

I wouldn't consider it original or innovative. I don't know who even said that. However, what it did do (homages to action adventure movies of the past and general hollywood action "feel" during gameplay) it did well. And throwing grenades with 6XS was awesome.

[Killing Moon]

I wouldn't consider it original or innovative. I don't know who even said that. However, what it did do (homages to action adventure movies of the past and general hollywood action "feel" during gameplay) it did well. And throwing grenades with 6XS was awesome.

Good points; I agree.
It's just that the word "innovative" is used all too often in this industry. Mostly for things that aren't actually new ideas at all.

[Segitz]

I want to fuel the fire a little bit...

The recent ads on GT promoting the "exclusive episodes" for the 360 (afaik German Only, as of now) don't state explicitly that there won't be content on other consoles...

I know, this is a known fact, but it is the wording that threw me off. The words "exclusive episodes" tell me, there somehow will be different ones coming to the PS3... I dunno... not that I care (I am now at 52% or so and I am starting to get a bit tired of the game), but it just seems strange.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I wouldn't consider it original or innovative. I don't know who even said that. However, what it did do (homages to action adventure movies of the past and general hollywood action "feel" during gameplay) it did well. And throwing grenades with 6XS was awesome.

can't rep you at the moment. bah.

[dnpmakkah]

1. Maybe it's just me but it's sometimes hard controlling Niko. If I have to climb something, I struggle. If I want to turn around to go up a staircase, I sometimes struggle as I run into walls. I'm not a sucky gamer but GTA has some funky controls sometimes.

2. For the love of God, if NPC's are going to be on a mission with me then get the F' out my way and stop taking my freaking hiding spots.

[OmniCloud]

This whole overhyping fiasco that’s going on with GTAIV is nothing new to this industry. It’s as old a hat as the credibility of the “media” gaming has.

Game scores are dictated by two simple things. Hard driven marketing and popularity. If one of these two factors, god forbid BOTH are concentrated on, then we’ll hear high praises whether they’re deserved or not.

Nostalgia plays a strong part also, but that’s a different subject altogether, really.

Considering that our American society prides itself on being fashionably moronic and shallow, games like GTAIV go right up our alley perfectly. It doesn’t have to make sense, it doesn’t necessarily have to have depth either. Just be easy accessible, somewhat pretty and keep the learning curve fairly low. Oh and of course, make sure the meat of the gameplay falls into the lines of what’s popularly stupid.

I stood by GTA3 and San Andreas for awhile back in the day. But, now it’s predictably become a money machine rather than pushing any type of creative medium mostly. At least this is how it seems, I don’t know.

This is however not regulated only to GTAIV though. I’ve seen too many games garner IMMENSE amounts of praise for being steeped in stagnation and mediocrity. Praise created by frothing fans and obviously biased media. So to be fair, I don’t think anyone here should be cursing GTAIV for what it’s doing to catch sales, while at the same time supporting titles like Halo, NBA Live, Gran Turismo or the latest Zelda when they’re all equally guilty of the same crimes. In fact, nearly all of the big mainstream titles are guilty of this. I just think it tastes a bit like hypocrisy, really.

GTA only makes their mark more blatant by directly appealing to the core coolness idiocy of common sheep. The obvious MTV’ers, I guess you could say.

Man, the film industry has its fair share of flaws, but I’d much rather have their barbaric media and audiences any day rather than what we’re stuck with in gaming most of the time.



BTW, I love Naughty Dog to death. But how the fuck is Uncharted original or innovative in any way?Wow...that was a great post man...To some extent, I'm definitely guilty of this. Maybe not specifically the games you mentioned above, but I definitely praised HS or Resistance a bit too much in the past. When your playing a game, your just excited by it, and you hype up the little tidbits that are actually cool.

Overall, I agree with your post 100%. But if it takes a huge game like gta4 to realize what we're really supporting, then so be it. Outlining gamers as hypocrites is a bit harsh. Each has there own personal preferences.

For me, there hasn't been a game that has gotten as much attention as this. GT might not be improving and innovating like it should--but then again, it's a game that really about it's fans. Casual gamers pick it up for the graphics and playing poke'cars, and that probably about sums it up. I know how you feel about Gt, so I won't get into that, I'm just saying that GTa4 is an even bigger splash than Sony's car franchise, and it touches on more than just fans being stuck to one genre or franchise, but the bold part is really something to think about?!

Why did one group of people think Sotc was one of the most beautiful titles that ever graced the consoles, yet many many many more millions voted with there dollar, that the Simpsons game was more entertaining:huh:

Is that being general? Sure, but I think you get the point. This is going into cultural taste, and as you said, what American society finds enjoyable.

I really have to take the time and really read over your post again man. But on the Uncharted thing, I think that many users here have even stated that it doesn't do anything really different or new, just well--and it's extremely polished. The same can be said for Gears--it wasn't really this completely new concept, but it was done well and played great. And definitely a breath of fresh air in the online realm. (Gears praises may have gotten a little overboard but it definitely was a really fun game much like Resistance.)

But Masteratt, you maybe right. I may have went into the game expecting the worse. But, I didn't shun the game away simply because of that. As noted, I've been playing the title regularity. I've been watching my percentage steadily increase, and I was indeed looking for the moment when I sat back and said "Wow--that was really something special."

That hasn't happed yet--and after playing the game over 15 hours, one starts to wonder why?

Sure, I have been impressed by things, but you know that feeling right? The feeling when you can't put the controller down. When your thinking about how many hours is left of work. When your ignoring someone right there in front of you because your so focused on what's about to happen next.

With the amount of hype, yes--I was expecting to have that feeling. Yes, I was expecting to be pleasantly surprised. However, it certainly didn't affect my feelings toward the title. If I never played a gta title before, read the IGN review and then went out and bought/played gta4--you can be assured the first post of mind would have more or less been exactly the same.

Is it admirable that so many things are tossed in the game and they still work? Sure--I'm sure I'll never be smart enough to even understand the technical achievements they've met. Does that make the game classic though? Not only classic, but even a class above the classics? Seems to be more of a nod to stupidity than art IMO--which is not where I want gaming to go.

[masteratt]

I thought it was the 'classiest' GTA yet, the humour and everything else was much more mature.

The most immature thing is the very first thing you hear/ see where the guy is getting whipped in the cut-scene

Eastern Promises was a good film and I think GTA4 just upped that film and turned it into a videogame (with better accents lol).

GTA4 is definitely leaning more towards technical achievements/ variety than trying to be 'art' but just because the game is not being artistic doesn't make it stupid.

[Sephiroth_VII]

Agreed, it's definitely the best GTA to date.

[Diresu]

I was one of the biggest skeptics prior to the release of this game, and while I still don't think the ratings are justified, it is an amazing game and easily my favorite sandbox/gta game ever. To summarize

Positives
Niko - He is easily the most likable GTA character yet ( and I am not just saying that cause I am from the Balkan ). He feels human, vulnerable, just trying to make it. Unlike every other gta character who had no emotions, and was just a tool for everyone else. I am about 40 hours in and I care for Niko, and what happens to him. I want him to be in the next GTA.

Story - I like the story quite a bit. While at its core its not some epic story, the delivery is excellent and the characters you interact with are believable and entertaining (Go Brucie!).

Genre Convergence - There are so many aspects of this game that could have been separate games in themselves. While none of the individual parts are perfect, they are done well enough to be fun and not a detraction from the experience.

Little Things - This is probably my favorite part of the game. You can tell just how much work they put into this game. I find myself regularly being surprised by the things I see happening. It adds so much to the game. Everything from the animation of throwing someone out of the car to the "internet" is done well and with major class and attention to detail. I nearly passed out laughing the first time I flew through the windshield, just because it caught me completely of guard.

Social Aspects - This was an excellent addition and something I hope to see them expend on in the next few games.

Negatives

Driving - I feel they messed up here. No more 90 degree turns. Its to easy to spin out etc. It gets a little better after getting used to it but still.

No airplanes / parachutes - This is just my personal annoyance as it was my favorite part of San Andreas.

Melee Combat - Its an improvement over the other GTA's but still nothing great. Personally I wish they would have had the hand to hand combat from True Crime : NY city. You were able to learn 10-15 different styles with their own move sets etc. More melee weapons would have been nice too.

Mini games - I wish the ones in the game were a bit more polished, and that there were a few more. Pool feels broken, darts are to easy and bowling is meh.

Customization - I do wish they would have kept the customization options from San Andreas. Yea they have clothing but there is not enough. Hopefully they expend on this later.

Thats all I can think of right now. Overall its an excellent game that got way too over hyped. I disagree that it doesn't innovate, and R* has done something that no other developer has done with the genre and they should be credited for that. Until something better comes along, R* will remain king of the genre...After GTA4, you realize just how bad Crackdown and the rest are by comparison.

[Gummy]

I didn't even touch crackdown/saints row.

[Jay Gee]

Playing some of these missions makes me feel like I'm still playing GTAIII. Holy Shit at the utter stupidity of some of them. Like chasing the gay basher on the fucking scooter!?!? Get on my fucking level, Rockstar. It does not take 4 clips from a submachine gun to kill a guy running away from you on Peter Parker's moped.:\

[Gummy]

They should have SpiderMan mod going around liberty city

kill the spider = win the game

[Segitz]

What I find boring about the story is, that most missions don't involve Niko at all... I mean, you can be ANYBODY, you just do it for the money, not for something you want or need... except some mission... It just feels stretched that way

[cliffbo]

Masteratt, that spoiler is not mature at all. it's exactly what Omni was on about. it's pseudo maturity for the kids to giggle at and convince themselves they are grown up, just like when the F word is used in games and lyrics. having that scene at the very beginning of the game is setting their stall out too early and in doing that showing a degenerate opinion of their fans... don't get me wrong, violence when done properly adds a dimension to any story. it's something that Tarantino explored with breathtaking success in Reservoir Dogs. the scene in question is the one where the policeman is tied to the chair and the guys got the knife. the music made the guy look cool to children, but the adults felt the pain of the policeman and his bravery at not revealing the snitch

[masteratt]

I said it's the most immature scene in the game.

And GTA is way past the FUCK THIS FUCK THAT YEAH BLOOD! state, if you want that, go check out Saint's Row.
I am very involved in making stories/ film (*BRAG*) and although I wouldn't say GTA lives up to GREAT standards, it's made very well indeed.

This Eastern gangsters 'take over' of the west was a very smart route to take for Rockstar.

[cliffbo]

I said it's the most immature scene in the game.

And GTA is way past the FUCK THIS FUCK THAT YEAH BLOOD! state, if you want that, go check out Saint's Row.
I am very involved in making stories/ film (*BRAG*) and although I wouldn't say GTA lives up to GREAT standards, it's made very well indeed.

This Eastern gangsters 'take over' of the west was a very smart route to take for Rockstar.

LOLOL... i owe you an apology, Masteratt. SORRY!

[masteratt]

Oh well at least you read the thread before replying this time ;)

Although you could have read it better :p

[Sephiroth_VII]

What I find boring about the story is, that most missions don't involve Niko at all... I mean, you can be ANYBODY, you just do it for the money, not for something you want or need... except some mission... It just feels stretched that way
It felt like that to me in the beginning, as he was working his way upwards. However, after the halfway point, I could definitely feel each missions relation to the overarching storyline.

[JasonXe]

There is no freakin' question 360 held this game back.

6.8GB- 360.
10.4GB- PS3.

See even with 360 bogging the game down, Rockstar used the extra space for uncompressed sound I guess?

or it could be that they were force to release it because t2 was running out of $$. Blaming it on the 360 soley is being short sighted man, com on.

[Segitz]

It felt like that to me in the beginning, as he was working his way upwards. However, after the halfway point, I could definitely feel each missions relation to the overarching storyline.

I see that too, but there are too many filler missions in between to see and follow the red line... And imho again, I think there are TOO many people you do missions for, I'd prefer more missions from less people... Especially crazy people like Brucie or somesuch

[JasonXe]

I had a problem with the ending. I was excepting a lot more then .... well you know. I'm there left standing saying, ok wtf do i do now?

[masteratt]

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/masteratt/gta4.jpg

Took me 5 mins.

[Gummy]

Hahaha.

[JasonXe]

I wish i had your talent.

[Sephiroth_VII]

A work of art that is :cloud9:

[OmniCloud]

hahahhahhaha...that is pretty funny...

[Jay Gee]

This is now an MSPAINT thread.

[OmniCloud]

It still blows tho...

[dnpmakkah]

lol

[Jay Gee]

Fuck the pre-scripted crashes and traffic on the Union Drive mission. If I had realized that all I had to do was keep up with them and not shoot their car up, I'd have done that ages ago.

[Sephiroth_VII]

That's how it is for the entire game. Sure, you can shoot their car to end the mission faster, but you only have to do it in the vigilante missions.

[Jay Gee]

I'm really starting to like the Random Encoutners missions better than the regular ones. And Take Two or Rockstar or whoever should be ashamed of themselves for having the same fucking traffic from GTAIII in this game. I can see why they decided for a "no gameplay shown" policy with this one. So many people would've been like "It's just like the previous titles."

Gonna go see if I can court the nubile Carmen now. Cluckin' Bell and Strip Shows aren't beneath either of use apparently.:D

[masteratt]

I can see why they decided for a "no gameplay shown" policy with this one. So many people would've been like "It's just like the previous titles."
Haha, that's what people might have thought but no, that's not the reason.

The "no gameplay policy" is a policy Rockstar markets with for all their games (even the likes of Max Payne and Midnight Club).

They always have movie-like marketing.

[Segitz]

I just find it idiotic in most "kill that guy" missions... either you have to watch a cinematic, where Niko just waits until the other guy runs to his car, starts the motor and drives away (and then, you cannot kill him while driving... no matter what) or ... well... the invincible enemys are just plain idiotic... Don't say "kill that russian" when you are only supposed to follow them, like in Bernies Mission on the boat... there's nearly no way in hell you could remotely kill them on the boat (although they drive the same boat, they are MUCH faster than you)...

[FantasyGhost]

Rabid game fans do not suffer tepid review scores gladly

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080514/080514-gta4-hlarg-5p.hlarge.jpg
The "Grand Theft Auto" games enjoy a devoted base as hardcore (if not more so) as rabid “Halo” fans. And these gamers take it awfully personal if you don't love their game as much as they do.
View related photos (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24633561/displaymode/1176/rstry/24633252/)

As expected, Rockstar Games pulled off a bank heist with "Grand Theft Auto IV," with first-week sales topping $500 million. It did so with near-universal acclaim from game critics, as evidenced by the 99-out-of-100 average score on review aggregate site Metacritic. So, huge sales and glowing reviews — everybody loves "Grand Theft Auto IV," right?

Not exactly. There are some naysayers — or, at least those that do not offer absolute praise — in the growing video-game critic circle.

But these critics are boxing a glacier. "Grand Theft Auto" enjoys a devoted base as hardcore (if not more so) than rabid “Halo” fans. And these gamers don’t suffer tepid reviews gladly. Just ask Daniel Weissenberger, who dared to award "Grand Theft Auto IV" an 85 score on the gaming website Gamecritics.com.

According to Weissenberger, approximately 60 percent of the response to his review has been hostile. "They tend not to go after specific things in the review, but rather complain about the number at the end," he says.

Weissenberger's review is largely positive — hence the "B" grade — but he does criticize the game's wonky combat controls, the intelligence of in-game characters, and Rockstar's desire to carry over too many features from past editions of the game. But even though Weissenberger points out a multitude of positives about "Grand Theft Auto IV," such as the game's strong narrative, it's that number gamers obsess over.

Maybe the game industry is taking a page from politics. As we’ve seen during the primary campaigns, the preferred method of defanging criticism is to impugn the messenger's character or motives. This tactic effectively diverts attention away from the content of the message itself.

Weissenberger is receiving the same sort of razzing. Detractors say that he is using his lower-than-perfect score as a way to draw attention to the site he writes for.

Here’s a choice morsel, from a poster called Kevin B.: "The reviewer clearly just wished to stand out as the one person who didn't believe the game was perfect. He was putting his personal opinions aside in order to stand out as a reviewer. Pathetic."

There are others. But this is a family Web site.

The reaction to his review by some readers leaves Weissenberger flummoxed. When was the last time you saw a negative review of a movie or a book whip up this kind of fervor?

"I can't imagine another field where someone would consider 85 percent an insult," says Weissenberger. "When a movie gets four out of five stars, that means it's a great film, bordering on a triumph. Somehow giving a video game the same score is the equivalent of calling it leprous in some people's minds."

The vitriol directed at “negative” reviews is indicative of how hardcore fans take these things personally, for better or for worse.

But be assured that publishers and developers love these gamers. They are the ones that lay down $60 for a game on Day One. They are the "boots on the ground" in the video-game hype war, where the stakes are rising increasingly higher as game budgets regularly soar over $10 million. Internet message board momentum is a valued currency, and when it hits back at a critical voice, the hope is that the review is devalued as the game itself boosted.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24633252/

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I don't like how driving is a principle part of the game and still handles like a gravy train on biscuit wheels.

[JasonXe]

The ending sucks, yeah i said it.