forget the gas what about the crops!?

[jaxmkii]

There's something trully scarry that non of the media or even the tree huggers have talked about that has been festering in my mind.

back in 1994 when i was in enviromental sciences and agricultral chemisty classes i remeber very clearly the subject that even buy the late 60s the world population has grown so large. that all the land usable for food crop production was not suficant to support the worlds food needs. The only way that it remains possible to this day is the heavy wide spread use of petrochemical based fertilizers. there is no other possible subsitute for the neccicary Hydrocarbon based plant food.

we have been borrowing energy stored buy plants millions of years old in the form of oil to feed the crops of today.

in short when we runn out of oil the price of gas will be our smallest concern.

why is this much larger problem being swept under the rug?!

[goku2057]

...Yeah.

Ethanol is the problem. Farmers can sell corn to the government mor more money than growing a crop we need, such as wheat. The government then uses the corn to make ethenol.

Which requires more gas to make than it produces. Ethenol is the biggest problem our economy has.

[jaxmkii]

but what if you dont even have the fertilisers for that or anything.

suddenly in just a few seasons the worlds crop volume drops 80%

[Bryan]

And if those farmers make crops for ethanol, they'll stop making food for us because it's less profitable to feed folks than it is to move their Escalades.

[Viper]

1. Fertilizer use in the US hasn't increased since 1984.
2. The oil used in crop fertilizer is only a small % of the overall oil use when you consider transportation, tractors, processing, etc...
3. Many fertilizers are switching to phosphate and nitrogen bases.
4. Organic fertilizers are gaining popularity just as much on their quality/quantity of results as they are on the leveraging of prices from oil based fertilizers.

We're not at a crisis yet.

[venomv]

And if those farmers make crops for ethanol, they'll stop making food for us because it's less profitable to feed folks than it is to move their Escalades.

Ethanol raises the demand for corn (what we normally use in the US for ethanol) therefore raising the price of corn across the board. I worked at a grain elevator is harvest season of 2007, they company I worked for mostly makes corn meal, and they were paying more per bushel then another big elevator in the area that was owned by a company that produces ethanol, probably only a few cents, and it is own one example, but I don't think ethanol is nearly as bad as a lot of people are making it seem. Not to mention the price they were paying for corn went up about 33% from the year before.

The biggest problem is that we are using corn, it's a pretty ineffiecent source of ethanol....

[goku2057]

^ I agree. As of this year, the government is offering more for corn than it is worth, so most farmers are switching to that money making crop from things that the US needs, like wheat.

Ethanol uses up two of our most precious resources...oil and farming land. And doesn't give us more in return.

[jaxmkii]

1. Fertilizer use in the US hasn't increased since 1984.compleatly false
2. The oil used in crop fertilizer is only a small % of the overall oil use when you consider transportation, tractors, processing, etc...proves my point even farther
3. Many fertilizers are switching to phosphate and nitrogen bases.that require the burning of fossle fuel to produce and are still made from oil
4. Organic fertilizers are gaining popularity just as much on their quality/quantity of results as they are on the leveraging of prices from oil based fertilizers. organic farming cannot match chemical farming in production not in a long shot!

We're not at a crisis yet.

4. The Ammonia and Nitrogenous Fertilizer Industry
This chapter reflects an in-depth analysis of the ammonia and nitrogenous fertilizer industry. The
nitrogen fertilizer industry is a large energy consumer, with an estimated worldwide annual
production capacity of over 100 Mtonnes N and estimated energy consumption equal to 1% of global
primary energy use. The production of ammonia is the most energy intensive production step in
the manufacture of fertilizers and other nitrogen containing products. In the U.S. ammonia is one
of the major chemicals produced, with an estimated production of 16.3 Mtonnes (18.0 Million short
tons) (CMA,1996). In the U.S. about 80% of the ammonia is used for fertilizer production, the
remainder for a variety of products, mainly explosives and plastics. The most important fertilizers
produced in the U.S. are ammonium nitrate (AN), nitric acid (NA), urea, compound fertilizers, and
liquid ammonia. Ammonium sulfate (AS) is most commonly produced as a co-product of nylon
manufacturing.
The world fertilizer market grows slowly, due to growth especially in developing countries. The
world market price of ammonia has been depressed since the late 1980’s due to cheap exports
from producers in Central and eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, limiting expansion in
the Western World (especially Western-Europe). The U.S. fertilizer market is still slowly
growing (IFA,1998), and ammonia prices have been high since 1994 (USGS,1998). The U.S. is a
net importer of ammonia, and of some fertilizer types, e.g. urea. The main imports are from
countries with cheap natural gas resources, i.e. Trinidad and Tobago, and Canada. Some U.S.
firms operate or construct plants abroad, e.g. in Trinidad (e.g. Mississippi Chemical).
In this chapter we first discuss the major process used to make ammonia and nitrogenous
fertilizers (section 4.1), followed by a discussion of the U.S. ammonia industry (section 4.2) and
energy consumption and intensity (section 4.3).
4.1 Process Description
Ammonia is produced by the reaction of nitrogen and hydrogen, the so-called Haber-Bosch process.
The main hydrogen production processes used in the U.S. are steam reforming of natural gas and
partial oxidation of oil residues. Hydrogen is produced by reforming the hydrocarbon feedstock,
producing synthesis gas, contining a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen. The carbon
monoxide is then reacted with steam in the water-gas-shift reaction to produce carbon dioxide and
hydrogen. The carbon dioxide is removed from the main gas stream. The carbon dioxide is recovered
for urea production or exported as a co-product, or vented. The hydrogen then reacts with nitrogen in
the final synthesis loop, to form ammonia. The anhydrous ammonia is sold as product, or used to
produce a variety of fertilizers, or other products. For a detailed description of the ammonia
production process, see Worrell and Blok (1994). Ammonia production typically requires between
28 and 40 GJ/tonne (LHV)8 of ammonia, including feedstocks.9 U.S. energy consumption for
ammonia manufacture is roughly estimated at 790 PJ (HHV) (Lipinsky and Ingham,1994). The
specific energy consumption (SEC) of modern partial oxidation units is 30 GJ/tonne (Lurgi,1987),


sorce:http://www.energystar.gov/ia/business/industry/industrial_LBNL-44314.pdf

worst part is even organic farming on a large scale is still indirectly dependant on petrochemical farming as most organic fertilisers come from live stock that is grown using artifical live stock feed created buy petrochmical co directly, or indirectly buy livestock feed from grains grown buy chemical farming.

[jaxmkii]

^ I agree. As of this year, the government is offering more for corn than it is worth, so most farmers are switching to that money making crop from things that the US needs, like wheat.

Ethanol uses up two of our most precious resources...oil and farming land. And doesn't give us more in return.

agreed corn,soy and penuts are much more adapted to making oil based fuels insted of alcohals

[venomv]

^ I agree. As of this year, the government is offering more for corn than it is worth, so most farmers are switching to that money making crop from things that the US needs, like wheat.

Ethanol uses up two of our most precious resources...oil and farming land. And doesn't give us more in return.

Well, I can only speak for Indiana, but Indiana plays a huge role in ethanol production, so much so that a lot of people have point there fingures directly at Indiana for pushing ethanol. But I don't think the soil here is suitable for wheat, by and large, I have lived in Indiana most of my life and in that time I have seen 1 wheat field, everything is corn and soybean (the rotate between the 2). Actually I think I have seen more peppermint fields then wheat....

But regardless, I think we should be making ethanol, I believe it is the only alternate fuel ready for the big time, but we shouldn't be using corn to make it, as like I said, it's inefficent

[Sephiroth_VII]

With most of Africa's population starving to death, I really don't think we should be burning food to produce fuel for our cars.

Seriously, what the fuck?

[GTAce]

I really don't think we should be burning food to produce fuel for our cars.
Agreed.
Just like im sick and angry at the German farmers, they chuck away their milk because of striking, while millions of people are starving.

This really isnt the right way.

[masonite]

haber-bosch process....haven't heard that since uni....

the most common fertiliser is an NPK fertiliser, those are the three elements required by plants in the highest quantities for growth. Ammonia is a great source of nitrogen, but you don't necessarily need it for fertiliser (pretty sure thats the case, my memory of plant phys is a bit hazy) and in any case, the best source of ammonia is guano. The stuff is chokkas with ammonia, and it's a lot denser than live stock manure.

Viper hit the nail on the head, petrochemical based fertilisers aren't increasing in use, even though more crops are being planted. Theres more awareness of chemical leeching into water supplies, residues, and environmental impacts these days than there was, even just a decade ago. The fertilisers that are being used are being used smartly - quantities are being used less and less, systemic approaches are being used to ensure appropriate quantities of fertiliser are going on the plants. Remember, these chemicals are bloody expensive - farmers are always looking for ways to keep costs down. I remember at uni there were posters given to the uni by monsanto, demonstrating which of their chemicals should be used at which time during the season - the chart was about a metre high, with about 20 chemical products listed on it, most of them being "recommended" for at least 6 months use each season. It was basically used to show us the wrong approach to fertiliser use :) Thankfully, the attitude of "more is better" is well and truly dispelled these days, but unfortunately third world countries don't have the benefit of education for their farmers. They just do what it says on the free monsanto sample, and end up addicted to the stuff....but thats a different gripe for a different thread.

The biggest problem with organic fertilisers (more often than not, types of manure, straw, etc) is their density is nowhere near the level of chemical fertilisers, meaning that more has to be used, which means more transport costs...somewhat ironically, this probably uses more oil than the thing your complaining about jax ;) although the problems are definately being overcome.

In your original post, jax, you mentioned that the only way we're able to maintain food production is through the heavy use of fertilisers. That may have been the case back in the 60's, but the focus today is on yields, and crop selection to keep demand up with supply. Thanks to advances in micropropagation, generations can be built up extremely quickly - for instance, using hormone treatments in plant biotech back at uni, we were able to cultivate entire potato and strawberry plants from leaf cuttings. this method allows thousands of plants to be created, in a lab, every week. No fertilisers, or persticides, involved. You don't even need seeds. just a leaf, where some stem cells are present. very cool stuff ;) Populations might be growing, but scientific progress advances faster.

Lastly, petroleum oils used in pest control would be a bigger factor in the use of petrol based products than ammonia production for plants, i'd say, and even they're being replaced by botanical oils (such as neem).

[Coded-Dude]

farming is becoming more and more efficient with breakthroughs in technology, fertilization, and percentages of successful yields. Thus less land is required to sustain the same amount of crop output. I agree that if we keep developing that there may one day be a reason for concern, but as it stands now, there is nothing to worry about.

[Sadface]

Where did all the honeybees go?

If they keep dying like they have been, almost all crops will go unpollinated besides wheat.

Look it up.

[venomv]

Yeah, and unfortunatly we have no idea why (at least last I heard).