Anyone not satisifed? [Major Spoiler Alert]

[Otacon305]

AGAIN, MAJOR SPOILER ALERT HERE.






At first, my mind was blown (as well as my load) and I hailed MGS4 as "without hyperbole or exaggeration, the best game I've ever played". I still do. But the more and more I replay it, the more I find little things that bother me. It was supposed to tie up all the lose ends and all, but I find myself still asking questions. Who was Sunny's father? What's the story with Ed and John? Who was the random asian woman whose egg was used to make Snake? What was Liquid's name? (Solid's being David, and Solidus went by George, as in George Sears, although his true name may have been different...) WHAT THE FUCK DOES LA LI LU LE LO MEAN?! I understand these things may not be significant enough to warrant explicit answers, but they're like splinters in my mind. And was the retconning necessary? Dr. Clark (aka Para-medic) was originally referred to as being a man. And finally, some of the closure points just started feeling tacked on to me. Like they were never planned, and just thrown together so the story could be closed off. Naomi has cancer? Zero's the bad guy? His attitude sure didn't seem that different than Naked Snake's back in Snake Eater. Ocelot wasn't really channeling Liquid, he just psyched himself into pretending? Come on, in the realm of Metal Gear, channeling a dead person through a transplanted limb is perfectly plausable, IMO even moreso than the self-hypnosis thing. Plus, it really detracted from the elements of Sons of Liberty for me. As did Vamp's abilities being due to nanomachines. What a crock of shit. I will be honest, ever since Snake Eater came out, I suspected Sigint was the Darpa Chief, Donald Anderson, but one of the Patriots? And speaking of the Patriots, who suggesting making them Zero, Big Boss, Ocelot, Sigint, Para-medic, and EVA? Hopefully it was someone working on the script for the next Universal Soldier movie, not Hideo Kojima. It just... feels so elementary. Dumbed down. Might as well have made it Colonel Sanders sitting in a white room full of TVs and using words like "concurrently" and "vis-à-vis". Mei Ling a freaking CAPTIAN? Come on, Hideo. You know, the accelerated aging had no necessary plot relevance, it was simply another condition amended to Snake's existence in order to limit not just his longevity, but the series'. Same as his sterility and his FOXDIE factor being random. And while we're on sterility, you're telling me Meryl could just give up on Snake and settle for a goober like Johnny? What happened to the "large place in her heart" that Mantis mentioned? Knowing that the true ending to MGS was Meryl surviving and hooking up with Snake, I'm sure he had other large things in other parts of her as well. Many times. Ugh, Johnny and Meryl. Don't even get me started.


If Otacon hadn't plowed Naomi in that helo, I'd be really pissed off. (it was implied strongly enough!)

[VG Aficionado]

Who was Sunny's father?You know, I actually wondered whether it was going to be revealed that Raiden's father was Frank Jaeger. Hair color, sword skills, etc.

What's the story with Ed and John?I'd agree they are underdeveloped characters, but their names come from an old Kojima game.

Who was the random asian woman whose egg was used to make Snake? Nobody. It was EVA's egg. The reason why SS has Asian genes is because Big Boss' parents were American and Japanese.

What was Liquid's name? (Solid's being David, and Solidus went by George, as in George Sears, although his true name may have been different...) I guess we will never know.

WHAT THE FUCK DOES LA LI LU LE LO MEAN?!It's just a translation of something that has no meaning in Japanese because the letters used don't exist in their language. Explained in MGS2.

And was the retconning necessary?Yes.

Dr. Clark (aka Para-medic) was originally referred to as being a man.

Irrelevant to any storyline.

And finally, some of the closure points just started feeling tacked on to me. Like they were never planned, and just thrown together so the story could be closed off. Nearly everything made sense to me. You just can't expect that storylines spread and developed over 20 years of creating Metal Gear games to feel as if absolutely everything was planned since the beginning. They just give rather plausible explanations to end the storylines, and they did a really great job. In the end, there aren't incoherences that would break the suspension of disbelief. They certainly didn't seem afterthoughts, or not nearly as much as they seem to be in other games and movies.

Naomi has cancer?Why not?

Zero's the bad guy? His attitude sure didn't seem that different than Naked Snake's back in Snake EaterYou would have suspected so if you had played MGS Portable Ops. Anyway, he never was a villain. It's more like things happened in a way that didn't turn out right.

Ocelot wasn't really channeling Liquid, he just psyched himself into pretending? Come on, in the realm of Metal Gear, channeling a dead person through a transplanted limb is perfectly plausable, IMO even moreso than the self-hypnosis thing.It was revealed that at first he really did have Liquid's arm and then got a bionic one, but it was never actually revealed that Liquid ever controlled him, only that his "will" lived on through his arm, which doesn't contradict what is revealed in MGS4. Although I agree it would have been plausible given that the Sorrow was Ocelot's father.

Plus, it really detracted from the elements of Sons of Liberty for me. As did Vamp's abilities being due to nanomachines. What a crock of shit.It makes sense. Otacon also reveals that he was able to walk on the water just like the Frogs could adhere to walls due to them being able to control van der Waals forces.

I will be honest, ever since Snake Eater came out, I suspected Sigint was the Darpa Chief, Donald Anderson, but one of the Patriots? And speaking of the Patriots, who suggesting making them Zero, Big Boss, Ocelot, Sigint, Para-medic, and EVA?Makes sense. In 1970, BB found out EVA was still alive and that both Ocelot and Gene were dealing with Zero since the beginning.

You know, the accelerated aging had no necessary plot relevance, it was simply another condition amended to Snake's existence in order to limit not just his longevity, but the series'. Same as his sterility and his FOXDIE factor being random.I just can't agree with that.

And while we're on sterility, you're telling me Meryl could just give up on Snake and settle for a goober like Johnny? What happened to the "large place in her heart" that Mantis mentioned? Knowing that the true ending to MGS was Meryl surviving and hooking up with Snake, I'm sure he had other large things in other parts of her as well. Many times. Ugh, Johnny and Meryl. Don't even get me started.That actually made sense. After the events of MGS1 and before MGS2, Snake used to drink too much and they broke up.

If Otacon hadn't plowed Naomi in that helo, I'd be really pissed off. (it was implied strongly enough!)

Hehe, that was awesome. Also, once again, an important woman in Otacon's life died. Just like you get to kill a relative in every MGS game at the end.

You know, at first, when the game seemed to end, I found the storyline disappointing, but then the credits showed "Big Boss: Richard Doyle" and I was: "WHAT?!?!?!". And what happened then totally made my jaw drop. Not that I couldn't have expected that, but wow. I was finally satisfied.

[Hisham]

The one glaring flaw in this game was the dialogue. Some parts it seemed very childish, and didn't match the tone. And it didn't portray the "love" scenes too well.

Other than that though, the overall story was very well crafted and it was a satisfying ending IMO and it is probably one of the best series from a story standpoint.

And I wasn't left with that many questions... And the one's I were left with, the MGS database cleared for me. So I was satisfied with it pretty much. I guess me beating it 4 times is evidence of that.

[Gegenki]

That actually made sense. After the events of MGS1 and before MGS2, Snake used to drink too much and they broke up.


How'd you figure that?

If Otacon hadn't plowed Naomi in that helo, I'd be really pissed off. (it was implied strongly enough!)

lol - perhaps it was his first time and he was too n00b to deliver

[VG Aficionado]

How'd you figure that?

It's explained in MGS2 SOL or MGS2 Substance, can't remember which one. Maybe the MGS4 database as well.

The one glaring flaw in this game was the dialogue. Some parts it seemed very childish, and didn't match the tone. And it didn't portray the "love" scenes too well.

A matter of loss in translation / adaptation?

[Hisham]

Probably, but some dialogue stuff was pretty bad. Like when Otacon was explaning how he used to be an otaku and basically all the dialogue between Raiden and Rose. That shit was corny and hard to sit through. Naomi and Otacon was the same shit. I know Otacon was supposed to be akward around her, but some of there dialogue was pretty bad, even consdereing the akwardness... But all the serious points and stuff were done perfectly well, so I have no complants about that...

But it is probably a moot point because the game was written in japanese, and who knows how good the dialogue was in japanese. The love storylines could have been butchered in transition to english. Who knows...

[Sephiroth_VII]

I think a lot was lost in translation. The game hasn't exactly been translated by college professors you know, and Japanese is very hard to translate correctly.

[the boney king of nowhere.]

it's just generally badly written.

[Sephiroth_VII]

Cool, you know Japanese? Quick review of the original version then, better or worse than the English?

[Gegenki]

theres typical dialogue that sounds totally stupid when you put it in english but its totally fine in japanese.

[AC!D]

It's just a translation of something that has no meaning in Japanese because the letters used don't exist in their language. Explained in MGS2.

I thought in MGS4 when Snake initially distrusts Drebin he mentions the Patriots to Drebin to see if he can call them the patriots or if his Nano Machines will kick in to force him to say La Li Lu Le Lo. Wasnt La Li Lu Le Lo a preventitive measure by the Patriots AI to prevent the world from calling them by their name through SOP's so that the world would not discover the Patriots?

[VG Aficionado]

Yeah, but the way and the reason that the censored words sound like that aren't random either, which is the point I was conveying.

[Sephiroth_VII]

They're actually part of a kind of rhyme Japanese children use to memorise all the Hiragana and Katakana.

A I U E O
ka ki ku ke ko
Sa shi su se so
ta tchi tsu te to
na ni nu ne no
ha hi fu he ho
ya yu yo
la li ru le lo (or: ra ri ru re ro)
wa o
n

Is how it goes, if I recall correctly :) (Yes, I've been studying Japanese in summer school, how'd you guess?)

[VG Aficionado]

la li ru le lo (or: ra ri ru re ro)This is what I'm talking about :cowboy:

[Lucent Beam]

They're actually part of a kind of rhyme Japanese children use to memorise all the Hiragana and Katakana.

A I U E O
ka ki ku ke ko
Sa shi su se so
ta tchi tsu te to
na ni nu ne no
ha hi fu he ho
ya yu yo
la li ru le lo (or: ra ri ru re ro)
wa o
n

Is how it goes, if I recall correctly :) (Yes, I've been studying Japanese in summer school, how'd you guess?)

Not really a just a rhyme, it's the actual kana alphabet.

The thing that bothered me the most was the retarded Meryl/Johnny wedding. It was so awkward and seemed like a super lame way to end that part of the story. I felt embarrassed while watching that cutscene.

[curryking1]

I still don't think the ending was good nor do I think they closed the game well.

The ending was flat out bad actually. That's my true opinion of it. I hate it. With a passion.

The more and more I think about it (which I haven't done in a while actually), I feel I need to erase everything I saw from the game that occurred after the legendary Snake vs. Ocelot battle at the end.

I agree, there are glaring problems in this particularly amazing game.

The loading times between Acts is a bother to me when I just feeling like playing various parts in the game as well. During the first play through it was a complete non-issue, but when I feel like just replaying some parts for kicks it's very frustrating.

And speaking of the Patriots, who suggesting making them Zero, Big Boss, Ocelot, Sigint, Para-medic, and EVA? Hopefully it was someone working on the script for the next Universal Soldier movie, not Hideo Kojima.

A-***king-men man. Anything you can do makes sense in any story if you do whatever.

But this was a flat out bad design and terrible ending. It was ***king stupid. Flat out lame. To me it literally broke Metal Gear Solid's ace-in-the-whole development of story. It's the laziest crap of a finisher that I have ever come across and I will continue to blank it out forever.

[VG Aficionado]

Must... resist... -reppage.

[Sephiroth_VII]

Not really a just a rhyme, it's the actual kana alphabet.

The thing that bothered me the most was the retarded Meryl/Johnny wedding. It was so awkward and seemed like a super lame way to end that part of the story. I felt embarrassed while watching that cutscene.

That's just how the teacher presented it, but we have an ABC song too, don't we?

Bla bla bla bla, I hate the game, bla bla bla bla, crap, bla, bla bla.

Must... resist... -reppage.

Don't resist, just use your banhammer...

[masteratt]

Yeah let's ban everyone with a differing opinion! ¬_¬

I for one agree with curry along the lines of it being a lazy ending, because it WAS a lazy ending.
Hideo looked at every open corner and patched it up in the most cliché way possible in my opinion.
Raiden has a happy family, returns to normal........Snake doesn't die just all of a sudden quits being a soldier.........Two random people fall in love for some reason.

However it didn't automatically equal a SHIT ending as I thought the story about Zero and The Patriots were nicely done.

But yeah I would have preferred some stories not being tied up and especially would have much preferred Snake shooting himself (as in "I am either a soldier or I'm nothing...*BANG*") but what do you expect, Hideo was basically in the "here is your fucking ending!" mindset.

[curryking1]

Not tying up is THE BEST!

Everyone should always do that.

Hideo was basically in the "here is your fucking ending!" mindset.
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Honestly, what the ***k made him get into that...? Whoever did that is EVIL! EVILLLLL!!!

[the boney king of nowhere.]

Cool, you know Japanese? Quick review of the original version then, better or worse than the English?

no, i don't know japanese. what's your point?

there's nothing wrong with the story (well, not really) and the characters are good, it's just badly written. if any tv show or movie was written like this, i assure you, nobody would watch it. unless it was anime.

[VG Aficionado]

I wouldn't say it's badly written, but more like it shows it's not a Western work of art. Translations just can't fix it, but pretty much the contrary. And be glad you don't get anime and Japanese games translated to another European language, because even more is lost and while I bet the stories can make sense originally, you usually end up thinking whether you missed something as you don't quite understand everything after going through the second translation.

[Sephiroth_VII]

^What he said.

[Hisham]

It seems curry's problem with the ending is that they tied everything up...

While I would have been better for Snake to find out everything gradually throughout the game, rather than it being all explaned and tied together in the end, the way the game was laid out, I don't think it was possible. Perhaps they didn't have to bring Big Boss back, and could have driven the ending a different way. Maybe Otacon hacking the now shutdown Patriots network and then prying all the information that Big Boss had told Snake is how it could have gone down. And maybe with an ending like that, Snake would still die as the tragic hero, but the information that Big Boss told in the ending had to come out. This is Kojima's last MGS game, so I would want everything to be wrapped up as well as possible. And that is what the ending did. So while it might have been a lazy way to tie everything up, I am glad it did happen.

[curryking1]

I wrote it a bit like that Hisham, but my actual beef with the ending was the actual events of the ending, not so much of it being tied up was what I didn't like.

Let's leave alone that the performance of the ending was bad, but the major decisions of having Meryl marry Johnny (***king lame tie up there), and have Zero and the regular squad literally be the epicenter of the Patriots instead of corrupt President and white collars......

All ***king lame. All boring endings. Unimaginative. It was simply point to... oh he did it. It wasn't some massive government conspiracy anymore involving president after president after government after government worldwide.... it was simply... Oh ya it was all Zero and friends.

The whole 'Who did it?' idea of MGS1 to 3 was sooo huge. And making it elusive faces in all black suits made it that much more enticing. Suddenly making Zero the function or X-factor just makes it too simple and boring and at the same time it completely obliterates his awesome character as represented through Snake Eater.

Simply telling us Raiden leaves with Rose and the child would've been ten times better than his fake-**s white haired clone child.

Btw, I do prefer your idea of the ending being revealed by Otacon instead of a revived Big Boss. At first I was excited to see him suddenly alive, but after hearing him drone on for an hour he stopped being appealing in every respect. And then I was like... I can't believe Big Boss is such a lamoid.

I continue to blank out this ending. I hated it. To the ending I would prefer a non-closed ending, but to an untied ending I would've liked a little less simplification of the process that was the Patriots.

[Otacon305]

I wouldn't have wanted a non-ending, just a better one.

I agree with curryking on alot of other points though. They might as well have made Nastasha and Coward Duck Patriots as well.

[VG Aficionado]

:duh:

[rockleex]

Well, I hope that "December 12th" rumor is true. So that Kojima can release the TRUE ending.

[Bsack]

I'm glad I'm easy to please because I'm still blown away by the story this game told. It's great to be easy to please.

[VG Aficionado]

Sometimes you're happier when you are not on the lookout for every flaw or when your expectations aren't too far-fetched. I can't see I didn't expect anything from MGS4 because I expected a lot, but I was pretty much completely satisfied. Only disappointed that it's over, but it's for the better I guess.

[curryking1]

I wouldn't have wanted a non-ending, just a better one.

I think I wrongly conveyed what I meant lol.

For me... in a linear representation...

Ending as is <<<<<< rather non-ending << a more anti-establishment/death-to-conspiring/cheating/lying/manipulating governments/organizations ending sort of thing.

Which honestly kind of makes me wonder... Is Kojima even fit to close his own game? Was he the best director and brain behind an ending? Maybe he wasn't the right person to do it to be honest.

[Otacon305]

Agreed.

And you know, it;s not like I'm completely against retconning. I know it's necessary sometimes, but how come it wasn't needed in Metal Gear until this game. Makes me think they changed things just so they could finish it off. I hope they didn't expect anyone to notice. Metal Gear fans are some of the most descriminating and anal about that shit.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Not....satisfied...? I'll come to your house where you sleep at night, and cut your throat.

[Sephiroth_VII]

Agreed.

And you know, it;s not like I'm completely against retconning. I know it's necessary sometimes, but how come it wasn't needed in Metal Gear until this game. Makes me think they changed things just so they could finish it off. I hope they didn't expect anyone to notice. Metal Gear fans are some of the most descriminating and anal about that shit.

What exactly are you saying they retconned?

[gnznroses]

Maybe in only playing 1, 3, and 4, I missed something huge, but I didn't understand any of the crap they babbled on about in the ending. About the Patriots and whoever Zero is. I remember something about the Patriots from 3, but maybe my memory just isn't good, because nothing that Big Boos was revealing meant a damn thing to me.

But as to not being satisfied -- no, I wasn't satisfied. Cutscenes were way too long, evcen for a MGS game (hour and a half for the ending I think -- because I beat it at around 4AM and it didn't go off til 5:30...).

The Meryl/Johnny thing was overly forced and dumb.

And the gameplay itself got on my nerves sometimes. You can cross right in front of someone's line of sight sometimes w/o being seen, but other times I get seen when there's no way i should have been. Or I take a soldier down in South America with my silenced pistol, nobody hears me, yet then a minute later, for some odd reason, another soldier goes off his regular path to go over there and find it. So I shoot him as he's looking over the body, before he calls the alert, and then a second later another soldier wanders over there and finds both of em. Repeat ad infinitum. That happened twice to me. Or, they'd find the body, he calls the alert, I wait it out, and then he sees the other body literally half a foot away and calls a new alert. Grr.

Secondly, it seemed like some parts were just too hard to get to a goal without being seen. Too many enemies and nowhere to hide.

But anywho... there just wasn't that many great moments as 1 or 3. Too much story, but not enough interesting twists along the way. And really, not much gameplay.