Facts on Iraq's progress

[The Dude]

Facts and Figures
Education

3300


Iraqi schools renovated, or soon to be completed, since the overthrow of Saddam


("What We've Accomplished," Fox News Sunday, April 30, 2004)

9 Million


New math and science textbooks printed and distributed with pro-Saddam propaganda extracted


("What We've Accomplished," Fox News Sunday, April 30, 2004)

85%


Primary and secondary schools that have re-opened since the overthrow of Saddam


("Free After 50 Years of Tyranny," The Observer, October 5, 2003)

159,000


Student desks distributed to Iraqi schools


("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)

81,735


Teaching kits distributed to Iraqi primary school teachers


("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)

Human Rights

71%


Proportion of Iraqis in a February 2004 survey that said they expected their lives to be even better in a year


("National Survey of Iraq," Oxford Research International, February 2004)

76,000


New jobs created by the Iraqi National Employment Program


("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)

600


New judges presently working in Iraqi Courts of Law


("What We've Accomplished," Fox News Sunday, April 30, 2004)

170


Newspapers currently published in Iraq


("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)



33%


Percentage of Iraqis that receive worldwide information via satellite


("What We've Accomplished," Fox News Sunday, April 30, 2004)

70


Mosques refurbished by coalition forces


("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)

Healthcare

$1 Billion


Current budget for the Iraqi Ministry of Health; 25 times greater than the $16 million annual budget under Saddam's reign


("A Year After Liberation," The Washington Post, April 9, 2004)

25%


Increase in immunization rates among Iraqi children


("What We've Accomplished," Fox News Sunday, April 30, 2004)

75


Iraqi medical facilities refurbished by the Coalition Provisional Authority


("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)

700,000


Pregnant Iraqi women received a tetanus toxoid vaccination to improve their pre-natal healthcare


("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)

Infrastructure

500,000


Average increase in the daily number of oil barrels produced


("What We've Accomplished," Fox News Sunday, April 30, 2004)

16


Average number of hours of electricity for Iraqi citizens; a 40 percent increase from levels under Saddam


("What We've Accomplished," Fox News Sunday, April 30, 2004)

20 Million


Iraqis of the country's 27 million citizens receive clean water due to new water and sanitation projects


("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)

1,005,580


Iraqi telephone subscribers; a 20 percent increase from under Saddam


("Countdown to Sovereignty," Coalition Provisional Authority)

Government and Politics

67


Iraqi cities with fully functioning municipalities only four months after the beginning of the war


("The Real Iraq," The New York Post, July 17, 2003)

85%


Percentage of small Iraqi towns that had fully functioning municipalities only four months after the beginning of the war


("The Real Iraq," The New York Post, July 17, 2003)

81


Iraqi women serve on neighborhood and district councils around Baghdad


("U.S. Commitment to Women in Iraq," Office of International Women's Issues, May 24, 2004)

6


Iraqi women appointed as Cabinet-level ministers in the newly-formed Iraqi Interim Government


("The Interim Iraqi Government," Coalition Provisional Authority, June 1, 2004)

http://www.untoldiraq.org/

[C.J.]

I'm in no mood to confirm these, so I'll take your word for it until someone else posts "proof."

No offense to you, of course.

[Sendok]

like JB says if all true kickin a.

[The Dude]

Well considering that they actually tell you the source of the information, It's pretty hard not to accept

[xbdestroya]

Well, I notice it's all from 2003 and early 2004...

I can provide for you a link to a survey that indicates how Iraqi's are feeling *today* if you like. I assure you the numbers aren't nearly as rosy...

The infrastructure section above is especially a joke, as the Iraqi infrastructure is far worse off now than before the war. I can't even believe they mentioned the oil... Go to pre-war vs. post-war oil output figures.

[The Dude]

Originally Posted by xbdestroya

Well, I notice it's all from 2003 and early 2004...

I can provide for you a link to a survey that indicates how Iraqi's are feeling *today* if you like. I assure you the numbers aren't nearly as rosy...

The infrastructure section above is especially a joke, as the Iraqi infrastructure is far worse off now than before the war. I can't even believe they mentioned the oil... Go to pre-war vs. post-war oil output figures.

How so is it a joke? People act as if nothing is good is happening, tho these numbers are old, it just shows how fast improvment comes. If you remember correctly the war was over in May of 2003

[xbdestroya]

Yes exactly - so the war ended, Iraqi's were happy, then a couple of years later, it's total misery. Is that the sign of a positive trend to you? And it's a joke because the infrastructure is *still* far worse than before the war. Power, water, oil, roads...

It's an infrastructure black hole.

[Bryan]

The war ended when? Holy hell -- MAY 2003?! We've got to get those kids back here, then! What are we waiting for?

Have you ever waited for a ride from work, and the stupid asshole that's supposed to pick you up is late? Multiply that frustration by like 59081578 and you've got the level of frustration of our troops right now.

Now for numbers!

Since May 1, 2003, when President Bush declared that major combat operations in Iraq had ended, 1,858 U.S. military members have died, according to AP's count. That includes at least 1,446 deaths resulting from hostile action, according to the military's numbers.

huh?

Source

Also, were the textbooks then filled with American propaganda? Fair trade.

Now, my post will be ignored.

[Viper]

Death toll so US troops has surpassed 2000 after over 2 years of military action. Granted 1 loss is a lot, it's still as efficient as any military in history has ever attained in a long standing war.


The text books are the same ones they were using, Saddam had them edited before they were distributed to schools. Now they go unedited so the Saddam added propoganda is not added in.



New constitution accepted. Iraq is now it's own country with no Saddam.

Saddam took Iraq from its people for over 30 years, America gave it back tot he people in 2 years.

Let me ask you people this. Would you rather be unhappy under a dictator or unhappy under your own rule? I thought so.

[xbdestroya]

I would rather be happy under a dictatorship than unhappy under either of the other two - I think that's a viable option, no?

Certainly some people were repressed, no doubt. A lot. But the fact is that right now the former oppressors are the ones feeling oppressed, and they went to vote for that Constituation in order to vote it down. It's Iraqis ruling themselves, but what does Iraq constitue when in truth really it's three seperate regions? (One of which is almost certain to spit off in the next several years)

The fact is freedom is not the primary provision a people asks of it's government; security is. That's why even in our own country, the terrorist threats ratchet up, the personal freedoms ratchet down. Imagine if we had cars blowing up daily in our streets and in our negborhoods? Would people be satisfied with our freedoms? No. They would demand - and receive - security, and that security would come at the price of our personal freedoms.

Hey, I'm a big freedom advocate. I'm against the Patriot Act, and all efforts to scale back our civil and personal liberties. But I also know that my views and philosphies are not representative of the average man on the street's view.

Plus if the number of wounded get tallied in along with the death toll, things start to look a little more alarming.

Body armor is the only thing in between us and another Vietnam - so thank goodness for the body armor.

[Viper]

The majority of Iraqis were not happy under Saddam. Now they can do something about that.



Ah, the potential split of one of one of the regions.

That, my firend, is freedom. Could they or any faction of Iraq done as such under Saddam even if they wanted to? No, those tath tried were executed as a lesson in opposition.

Becoming a new country is a long and hard process (look up any new nation and/or those that had massive government reorganization). It's the benefits of the future that make it worth it. Benefits they'd never have under Saddam.

Now, unhappy under Saddam or happy under your own rule?

[xbdestroya]

Well I'm not arguing the potential benefits to millions of people...

Yet it's not so clear-cut. You certainly have millions in Iraq at the moment cheering for him and hoping for his ultimate victory in his trial right now, just as you have millions more hopign he gets the death sentence. Now granted, there're more millions in the later category.

That's not really my point though - sometimes a strong central government, whether repressive or not, is something the citizenry would prefer to the alternative. Russian citizens longing for Putin to take them back to the era of the 'great' Soviet Union - they don't seem to mind the actual trend back to authoritarianism. And in Iraq, I wouldn't be surprised if it just goes all out civil war at some point. I agree, if a people/country wants to split off, they should be allowed to. But it's just the situation isn't always simple.

For more on that, read the 'PS' in my post in the other war thread.

[Megatron40]

So they're unhappy. My gosh... if I was unhappy with the situation I would be very happy to be able to express that without having to worry about my head get whacked off or my family shot. What are they unhappy about? Not Saddam being removed. It's because things aren't very fun with terrorists running around... NOT because Saddam was removed. Now ask yourself this... why do those millions of people support Saddam? Certainly not because he was a nice guy or had a charismatic personality in any form. Certainly not because he freed the people from tyranny.

There are a fair few number of troops that are happy to be there in Iraq. I work at a news monitoring service. I seem them on radio stations via satellite a lot. I'll see if I can dig it up some where, but here's something for you. Some guys that were ticked off because they had to serve in Iraq a year longer than they were supposed to finally got a chance to come home. When they stepped off that plane they were greated and honored by veterans in wheel chairs dating in every war all the way to WWII. Oh they were ashamed of themselves and stated they would go back to Iraq if asked again. A couple of them did as a matter fact if I remember correctly. I'll see if I can find that news article for you.

American Revolution. Roughly 2/3 of Americans were loyalists. The other 1/3 were the ones starting the revolution. What's your thought on that? Were G.W., Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, John Paul Jones, Alexander Hamilton, John Hancock, James Madison, or Paul Revere wrong?

[xbdestroya]

Originally Posted by Megatron40

So they're unhappy. My gosh... if I was unhappy with the situation I would be very happy to be able to express that without having to worry about my head get whacked off or my family shot. What are they unhappy about? Not Saddam being removed. It's because things aren't very fun with terrorists running around... NOT because Saddam was removed. Now ask yourself this... why do those millions of people support Saddam? Certainly not because he was a nice guy or had a charismatic personality in any form. Certainly not because he freed the people from tyranny.

Well actually, the Sunnis as a whole did very well under Saddam. You may or may not have known that. Plus, the civil 'liberties' were much greater than they will be if Islamic Law gets adopted as the de facto standard in Iraq. Sure freedom of speech was right out the window, but at least women could wear miniskirts and pre-marital sex didn't get you killed. You asked me why they were cheering for them and then answered with why they weren't cheering for him. Well, now tell me why you think they were.

There are a fair few number of troops that are happy to be there in Iraq. I work at a news monitoring service. I seem them on radio stations via satellite a lot. I'll see if I can dig it up some where, but here's something for you. Some guys that were ticked off because they had to serve in Iraq a year longer than they were supposed to finally got a chance to come home. When they stepped off that plane they were greated and honored by veterans in wheel chairs dating in every war all the way to WWII. Oh they were ashamed of themselves and stated they would go back to Iraq if asked again. A couple of them did as a matter fact if I remember correctly. I'll see if I can find that news article for you.

Well what can I say? They believe they're fighting for something great. If I were them, I'd be dissapointed if I knew my opinion on that also.

American Revolution. Roughly 2/3 of Americans were loyalists. The other 1/3 were the ones starting the revolution. What's your thought on that? Were G.W., Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, John Paul Jones, Alexander Hamilton, John Hancock, James Madison, or Paul Revere wrong?

I don't know - what's so bad about England? My thoughts on it are that for the average person, it probably wouldn't matter. Just like if someone suddenly told me one day - "you're Canadian now," or "you're Australian now." I think I'd make due, and just do the same things I would have been doing anyway.

That's not to say though that if I were living in *that* day and age, I wouldn't have been one of the revolutionaries. On the contrary, bold ideas is what I'm about. Bold, but not naive. The colonists of that day felt unduly taxed and underrepresented in the English parliament, so some of them began to talk of revolution. Other than that though, there were no real cultural divides. It's severe cultural differences that lead to the real civil wars - and Iraq could easily tip in that direction, a la the Balkans.

[nesman]

I have to agree with xbdestroya on this one. Freakin 2,000 troops have died but who knows if that is even the real number. Even more innocent civilians died because of the bombs and crossfire. Iraq is total chaos, more than ever. Sure Saddam was a horrible person, and I am not apathetic to those people. But when I see poor Iraqi families hurt and killed everyday in the news, it hurts. It makes me angry to see how innocent people get killed all cuz of this war. Now we all understand that is a part of war, but seriously, WMDs!? Saddam would not have the finincial sources to even have a WMD program, and even the UN tests did not find anything. Congress was against this war, so was like 80% of American citizens. It created an unstability in global politics. America should stop being the policeman. We took enough of it during Vietnam, Korea. I'm tired of this war, no progress has been made, more people die everyday and live in fear. All I can ponder is what was the REAL reason this war was fought...

[Viper]

I'm going to have to disagree with you.

Originally Posted by nesman

I have to agree with xbdestroya on this one. Freakin 2,000 troops have died but who knows if that is even the real number.

I get the news before the news gets the news. My wife is an Airman and I talk with her squadron commander several times a week. 2,000 is correct.

Iraq is total chaos, more than ever.

Incorrect, on some levels, we just never covered it on the news until we had troops on the ground.

Saddam would not have the finincial sources to even have a WMD program

Saddam gained over $40 billion from the Oil-For-Food program. Saddam had more than enough money. He had dozens of palaces that make the White House look small. Other countries made money from it to like Russia, Germany and France (Notice these were the 3 main countires against us going to Iraq. They lost their illegal billions per year income stream because we invaded Iraq)

and even the UN tests did not find anything.

The UN wanted us to wait, so we did...8 months. Saddam had 8 months to hide, bury or ship off his WMD. If you had something illegal in your room and you knew for 8 months that your mom was going to come looking for it on a specific date, would you still have it in your room?

Congress was against this war, so was like 80% of American citizens.

Actually, it was congress that approved of the war.
Senate - 77-23
House - 296-133

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq.us/

no progress has been made,

Did you miss the first post in this thread?

Also, Iraq rattified it's constitution this week. Now that's progress.

Som more Iraq facts and progress (some are repeats as this is just copy/pasted from a previous post of mine).

* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.


Any questions?

[IEatFriedPikmin]

i cant believe people think iraq is a big hellhole with no happiness whatsoever.
Why do they think that? because nearly everything the media says makes it seem that way.

And freedom does not come instantly(aka a few years). It will take a while. Of course they wont be completely happy now, but there is improvement going on, as you can see.

[xbdestroya]

Originally Posted by Viper

I'm going to have to disagree with you.

I get the news before the news gets the news. My wife is an Airman and I talk with her squadron commander several times a week. 2,000 is correct.

Incorrect, on some levels, we just never covered it on the news until we had troops on the ground.

Well it's more than 2000 as well - there's a several day lag between the casualties in Iraq and when the news gets those figures. But 2000, who cares; not much different than 1999 or 2001. So I don't get hung up on the numbers much. I know you don't either Viper, I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't all get hung up on that figure since it will be prominent in the news for the next several days.

Saddam gained over $40 billion from the Oil-For-Food program. Saddam had more than enough money. He had dozens of palaces that make the White House look small. Other countries made money from it to like Russia, Germany and France (Notice these were the 3 main countires against us going to Iraq. They lost their illegal billions per year income stream because we invaded Iraq)

The UN wanted us to wait, so we did...8 months. Saddam had 8 months to hide, bury or ship off his WMD. If you had something illegal in your room and you knew for 8 months that your mom was going to come looking for it on a specific date, would you still have it in your room?

Ok well I just have to ask then, do you think Saddam had WMD he hid Viper?

Also, Iraq rattified it's constitution this week. Now that's progress.

Som more Iraq facts and progress (some are repeats as this is just copy/pasted from a previous post of mine).

* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.


Any questions?

Those stats look good, but there's no context.

Certainly the number of troops and police would lead one to believe the country is safe, but it's clearly not.

Girls were allowed to attend school before.

Why would there be textbooks that don't mention Saddam; is he not a central part of their history?

35% of hospitals... but before which war? Iraq was seriously embargoed after the first Gulf War. If it takes the US utterly demolishing the previous establishment to get money and goods flowing into Iraq, well...

Two times the electrical power (receives or produces?) We've heard conflicting things then. Is there a link on that? Not that I don't believe you on that one though, I just want to be current.

And in 1990 Iraq was pumping out 3.5/million barrels of oil per day.

[Viper]

He was questioning the 2000 figure as if it could be much higher. I was only pointing out that it's correct.

Yes, I do believe he had biological and chemical agents. You can bury those, ship them, etc, and are much hard to trace that nuclear material because they lack radiation trails. Have you see the pics of the burried fleet of illegal Iraqi jets? He goes through the trouble of burying several jets so the Un won't find them, what else does he hide? We also interdicted a ship he sent that was carrying illegal missiles. Guess where they were being sent? NK. 11 of the worlds best intelligence angencies don't say you have WMD unless you have WMD. We've also found program documents. Plus he was in the process of acquiring special aluminum tubes that can be used to either enrich uranium for weapons grading or use in a nuclear power plant. He had no plans for a power plant and why would he when oil is the money machine?

[xbdestroya]

Yes but our intelligence agency wasn't sure if he had WMD or not - that's simply the faction that won out (with the help of Cheney). There was serious contention within our own intelligence community as to what his weapons capability was. And any country that wants is going to have chemical and biological agents. I don't fear that stuff. It' not like Iraq had anything close to what ourselves and the Russians do. The hype was some crash nuclear program of theirs, but the hype didn't pan out. Not to mention we couldn't anything, nuclear or otherwise. AND, not one person we've taken into custody - anyone - has verified for us the prior existence of a WMD program. Don't you find that unusual? Wouldn't someone have cut a deal if there was something to find? All I can say is Cheney, Chalabi, and Rumsfeld combine to form a wonderful, magical brew. Meanwhile Powell and the State Department were completely sidelined. Plus that aluminum tube thing has been copletely debunked.

Also we didn't interdict that ship, it was the Spanish.

And obviously North Korea is just a completely different beast than the Iraq of the year 2000.