Xbox 360 elite: I am rubber, you are epoxy..

[=NukeBlaze=]

http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/news/i..._360_elite.htm

I am very surprised to not see this posted anywhere. Please correct me if already visible elsewhere.





The newer board is the one with the smaller capacitors to the right of the CPU.


This is the new and old Xbox 360 motherboard. You can make not of the difference, and the increase in the simplicity of the power circuity alluding to a possible 65nm transition on the elite version of the console. The 8 clear ridges around the GPU and CPU are epoxy M$ has placed around the boards to help prevent warping, which is a main cause in "Red ring of dead" syndrome. Heat and board mounting put strain on the board, the lead solder is stiffer than leaded, and helps in the separation of contacts between the chips on the board as it warps and flexes during heating and cooling. I find it very funny they are using this approach and am curious of the results, of which I am skeptical.

[Delirious]

I have no idea what any of that means. Is this a bad thing or a good thing?

[F089/H]

I got ya!The new Board does look a bit more messy though..

[NoZ]

The MS solution to the GPU and CPU coming away from the board due to heat, "Glue it down". Tut tut, they should get a proper solution.

[Viper]

The new MB is definitely a little cleaner than the old one but why use that method of warp deterrent? Do any other current MB's do that? I can't recall seeing any.

[Fillibuster]

I've been waiting on a 360 until the move to 65nm...I just hope that by then they can come up with a much better solution to all of the hardware issues they've had. I don't think there is any kind of excuse for all these issues in a $400 piece of hardware...

[Carlos]

I'm also waiting for the 65mm chips.

[Kiwi]

Hmm, and I was thinking about getting an Elite so that the colour would match my PS3

[frosty]

Basically this means (to quote cpiasminc) that they are using a band-aid to set a fractured bone. They are gluing the chips to the motherboard so that the chips warp with the motherboard rather than become disconnected from the main board when it warps. This may or may not cause the chips lifespan to be shortened when they warp (I asked cpias and he said that maybe they were banking on the chips not being able to warp as easily, but he agreed that it was a very stupid solution to a very big problem). Apparently it has something to do with the clamps that hold the chips to the mobo that are making it warp, and rather than redesigning those clamps they simply took a cheap way out and just glued the chips down.

Chances are you had the same problem as most people did, which was the clamp causing the motherboard to flex and force the CPU and/or GPU out of the socket. Microsoft's fix for this (and you can see it if you look at the board photos of the Elite) is to glue the chips down with beads of epoxy... So now when the board flexes, so do the chips.

They really are the antithesis of Sony...

I think they're just figuring that the package is flexible (it appears to be fiberglass), but the die and the slug surrounding are packed in hardened rigid metal, so only the package flexes and the slug just moves a little without bending. Maybe it'll work out, but I agree that it's a lousy way to try and fix the problem. It's using a band-aid to set a fractured bone.

For those of you not familiar, cpiasminc is a game dev that frequents the psinext boards. I trust his word on these things (as do I with Nukeblaze)

[GleefulFarewell]

Eh, Atleast They're Trying To Fix It Lol.

[frosty]

Well, one would think that since they are spending millions and millions of dollars replacing dead units that they would take a course of action that would prevent them from having to replace them all together, such as making a better cooling system that doesn't cause components to overheat and flex in the process. The boat has a hole in it, and they've pulled out a spoon to bail out the water rather than just plugging the hole.

[masteratt]

The words "Typical Microsoft" comes to mind ¬_¬

Always in it for the quick short-term fix that in fact is a horrible idea.

It's been almost 2 years for fuck sake, just fix the damn thing.

[GleefulFarewell]

This "Fix" Probably Works, I Doubt They'd Just Do That Without Trying It First Through Some Sort Of Tests.

[dork]

Originally Posted by S-pac69

I have no idea what any of that means. Is this a bad thing or a good thing?

[woundingchaney]

Originally Posted by GleefulFarewell

This "Fix" Probably Works, I Doubt They'd Just Do That Without Trying It First Through Some Sort Of Tests.

Wooh I dont know. The concept of the fix simply doesnt sound like a solution to me. I believe the "solution" is moving to a newer production for the chip itself. Im rather skeptical on the quality of this "fix".


I have never had a problem with my 360 but no one can really deny that the system hasnt had a rather large failure rate.

[Fillibuster]

True that, its just a quick fix so they can continue selling without a hitch in the manufacturing process IMO

[speed stick]

Well they obviously would't do this to make things worse. I didn't really understand much of it but from reading the above posts it seems like its a cheap way to "kinda" fix the problem. I guese all we can do is wait and see what happens with these new units.

[=NukeBlaze=]

edit

[=NukeBlaze=]

Ok...let me try to answer all the questions at once.

Front of Board

Back of board


Let me first address the power changes.
If you make note to above and to the right of the CPU, they have used the same number of the cylindrical capacitors, but they have shrunk alluding to a possible lower voltage rating. The little black squares you see to the right of the CPU, which are transistors, were in number by three. You can see them disappear as it flashes back and forth. Now, look to the close right of the processor and you will see dozens of little rectangles peppering the area in a grid, they are resistors, of which have been cut in half in the new board, both front and back. Looking further, you can see the circular current transformers on the board of which resemble a donut with wires wrapped around it. The ones to pay attention to are the two lone transformers to the bottom left and right of the new board. If you notice, they have fewer windings in the new version which may also imply lower power if the inner core winding you cannot see are the same. Flowing current creates a magnetic field by which you can induce current flow in windings. fewer windings. well, you can see where I’m going.

What could this mean? Well, the power circuitry have been reduced and simplified, which could mean these system are either using a 65nm chip, or they are using a more power friendly version of the 90nm that requires less voltage to run, similar to comparing AMD Athlon X2 chips, where you can get a low power 3800x2, or a normal 3800x2. The difference in both cases is not that they run at a different clock speed, the difference is that they can run at the same clock speed but use less voltage doing it. The reason that the chips look the same size in both versions is the metal cap on top of them. You cannot see the actual silicon core as it is underneath it, so we cannot make a comparison via visual.


Stress, heat, solder, and the red ring of death.

And now some pictures. This is the bottom of the console. The two X's you can see are where the heatsink backplates rest upon the case. The black screws around the X's hold the backplate to the metal case of the 360.



Here is the bottom of the Xbox 360 motherboard. You can see the X-backplates clearly now, where before you could only see their indent into the metal case.



Here are the two heatsinks with the top X-brackets for the Xbox 360. Note how far apart the holes are.



And now a top view of the motherboard.




Now, noting again the wide area between the 4 heatsink posts on the CPU , and the 4 on the GPU. When assembled, that PCB area of the motherboard is clamped tight in the metal X brackets, and is not free to move. The problem that can occour is that it is a large area, and a stiff bracket. As the board heats from the hot chips, the material expands. The metal X brackets are stiff, so the PCB warps as it heats and expands(Something has to move!)from the chips heat output. The extra area and small 4 corner contacts also helps maximize the lever-action of lifting contacts.

Now, how are the chips put onto the board? Well, the process is just called a BGA(ball-grid array) package, in which the metal contacts on the bottom of the GPU and CPU are covered in tiny balls of solder. Here is an example of BGA packaging. These are not the Xbox 360 chips, just examples of BGA.



Now, to get them to stick permanently(Questionable in this case) on the board, they usually align them to the motherboard contacts, then toss the board into an oven to melt these little ball of solder. When they take it out, the solder cools and hardens, now the chips are attached to the board!

You can note that this is different from PC assembly, where your CPU from Intel or AMD some with hundreds of little, gold-plated pins, or gold contacts that the motherboard holds down to make an electrical connection to the motherboard. Some low power chips from INTEL and AMD for small/ integrated solutions sometimes use BGA packaging too!

Here is yet another important note! The type of solder they are using on these boards is not the leaded solder of yesteryear, it is the ROHS lead-free solder! So, what is the difference? Well, lead solder is composed of about 63% tin and 37% lead by mass, and melts around 190 Celsius. Lead-free solder can be composed of many different metals, usually a mixture of silver, tin, copper, etc. and has a higher melting point typically over 200 Celsius. There are many different mixtures, not nearly as uniform as the old 63%/37% mixture of leaded solder used by virtually all electronic manufactures.

The issue is that lead is a very soft and malleable metal, without it lead-free solder is general stiffer than its leaded counterpart. With it being stiffer, there are questions of reliability when it comes to thermal cycling. As the heating-induced contraction and expanding of components can break electrical contacts, the stiffness can lead to less resolve to mechanical stress fracturing contacts. Some newer un-leaded solders have mixtures with increased resistance to these possible issues, thought I am unsure of the mixture used on the Xbox 360 motherboard.

So there you have it! What they are trying to do with the epoxy is take the mechanical strain from warping off the BGA solder contacts, and route it into the epoxy. The problem that may be is that it is adhered to the surface of the board, maybe causing copper trace breaking issues over time. In addition, the CPU and GPU package are made of something which appears to be a square of fiber glass. Fiberglass is flexible, and as such I am skeptical it will really reduce the BGAs solder taking the strain from warping any less, I see it flexing the corners in line with the contacts still flexing. Maybe it, coupled with a possible heat reduction they make cut down on the flexing a bit, but they really need a new bracket which provides more mechanical board support, than the small board contact provided by the current X bracket...oh yes and a quiter thermal solution!

[Nameless]

I wonder could you use an older 360 DVD drive with the new Elite motherboard?