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Ted Price {Resistance + Ratchet} interview:
Gave this one it's own thread because it talks about Ratchet, RFOM, and the PS3 in general. Happy Reading!
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As we promised last week, we are now happy to present you with the complete interview with Ted Price (CEO of Insomniac Games). Price goes into great detail about quality of life issues, his thoughts on crunch, the new E3, why Insomniac is loyal to Sony and much more. Read on...
GameDaily BIZ: First of all, congrats on being named to the "Best to Work For" list again.
Ted Price: Thank you.
BIZ: So since Insomniac is the only video game company to make the list, and you guys have done it for three straight years, what are you doing right and what is everybody else in this industry doing wrong?
TP: I've never worked for another video game company, so it's really hard for me to say. I know there's a lot of talk within the industry about how we all need to balance our work and our lives, and I think there's been a lot of positive motion in that direction. I read things about other companies making inroads all the time. We certainly have attacked it with gusto, making Insomniac a great place to work. I think a lot of it comes from our core philosophies about promoting collaboration and communication among pretty much everybody at the company, and that's been our philosophy from the beginning.
It's even more important though with games getting more complex, with games getting bigger, and with much larger teams – because when communication falters or when people feel they don't have a say in how the game comes out, it leads to frustration, and frustration leads to bitterness and that can ultimately lead to people leaving or an overall decrease in morale. At the core, we try to promote the notion that if you're working at Insomniac you have a big say in the games you're making here no matter what role you're actually playing within the company.
So what are we doing differently than other companies? We don't have a lead designer per se for each of our games; we have creative directors and lead designers but the game design isn't dictated by either one. They tend to be part of the team and consensus seekers. Our jobs involve bringing all the ideas together so that everybody can contribute all the wacky things that make our games uniquely Insomniac, and that's an important part of our culture. I think there are other companies that tend to put people in that position where they are "the guy," or the person that makes the call on just about everything and that's a hard model for us to maintain just because of the way that we've grown over the years. It makes game development here unique.
BIZ: Some models or methods that have been thought to improve production and quality of life are Agile development or SCRUM. Does Insomniac employ any of those methods?
TP: No, we don't subscribe to any of those acronym laden techniques. There are certainly elements of those things that we do here, but our culture has grown organically over the last 13 years. It's mostly based on common sense and on what people like. The cool thing about being independent is that we don't have any corporate parent telling us what to do. We have the opportunity to experiment with different ways of doing things here to decide if they work; and if they don't work, then we change. Our benefits here reflect that as well. For example, we have an in-house masseuse, chiropractic services, catered lunches... we do all sorts of cool stuff for people because that's what people tell us they want. And because people work hard and because we have the opportunity to provide great things thanks to the sales of our games, we do.
Also, in terms of company structure and how we're organized here, it really comes down to looking at the people rather than trying to stick with a hierarchy that people think should work for a games company. We pretty much do what works for the people that are here. As a result, we move departments around and we change structures within departments, just based on people's skills and desires. Ultimately what we want to do is build the most creative environment we can so that people can focus on making the games great and not worry about politics or bureaucracy or any of that crap that tends to come up when you get larger.
BIZ: We've often heard about these horror stories with employees getting burnt out on 80-100 hour workweeks or worse, especially during crunch time. What would you say the average workweek is like at Insomniac?
TP: I'd say it's between 40 and 50 hours right now. It depends on what team you're on but it's definitely gotten a lot better over the years. I will be very candid with you, however, and say that we certainly have had our brutal crunches. There have been games where many of us have been working insane hours just to get the game out. I think, though, that's part of being in a creative business where you are pushing the envelope. I think people want to create the best possible game they can; sometimes it does take extra effort and people will put in the effort. What we try to avoid in particular is situations where people are working overtime because we made stupid mistakes. That's key because that's what frustrates people. If there are things you could have fixed in pre-production that come back to bite you in the ass in production, there's no excuse for that. And with every game we've done, we've managed to learn more lessons and apply those to the next game.
Here's a specific example. For Ratchet & Clank Future: Tools of Destruction, which we're putting the finishing touches on now, it has been the smoothest production we've ever had. It's also the largest and most complex game we've ever made. But that's the result of taking some very hard lessons from Resistance and applying them to Ratchet as we went into pre-production. That all comes back to being an independent company, being able to apply these lessons and change as necessary based on the lessons we've learned.
BIZ: So in your opinion, crunch time is unavoidable in this industry?
TP: You say "crunch," but there are periods when people will put a lot of additional effort into whatever they're making, whether it's a game, a movie, a widget in a factory... because people want it to be the best. When you are pushing the envelope things come up that you simply can't anticipate because in many cases nobody's tried them before.
On Resistance, for example, it was the first time we had gotten our hands on the PlayStation 3 and nobody in the world really knew the hardware – so we did put a lot of extra hours into getting the game out for launch. But that's what we wanted to do, because we wanted to deliver the best possible product we could at launch. We were facing some pretty daunting obstacles, so the team felt it was appropriate to put in that time. And it paid off. Resistance is still the #1 PS3 game out there in terms of overall sales, and all of the knowledge [we gained from developing Resistance] we have now applied to Ratchet and have been able to make Ratchet head and shoulders above Resistance in terms of the visuals and what you'll see in the game.
BIZ: This is not the easiest question to answer, but how much of the PS3's power do you think you were using with Resistance and how much more are you using for Ratchet?
TP: Honestly, we don't know. You can't look at something as complex as the PS3 and put numbers on how much power you're using. What I can say is that when we finished Resistance, we did feel like we had only scratched the surface of what we could do. We were using the SPUs and that's a key to having a game that runs fast on the PS3, but there were a lot of things that we knew we could improve, and we have been improving them on Ratchet. And even with Ratchet, we're still seeing more and more things we can do; it's kind of like peeling off the layers of an onion.
[James Stevenson, Community Relations Manager, chimes in] Our tech team is constantly looking at new ways to optimize the engine. They're finding new ways to utilize things, new ways to get things working better... just look at the difference between the screenshots we've put out between Resistance and Ratchet and you can see we've made a lot of jumps. And we'll continue to refine the engine. Look at the PS2 and God of War II, for example, compared to the first-gen PS2 games. There's a lot more power to unlock on the PS3.
BIZ: Getting back to crunch and quality of life, do you feel that the new E3 has made things easier? I know that the old E3 caused a lot of headaches for developers who had to scramble to put together a demo for the show.
TP: I think there was probably an audible sigh of relief from all developers when that E3 announcement was made. It was absolutely the bane of our existence for a while. We had to create something that looked amazing with technology that simply wasn't finished. It made our lives really difficult because it gave us an additional deadline that didn't necessarily fit into our production schedule; so removing that has helped us make things saner. And that's a small part of what we've been doing internally at Insomniac to improve our production processes, but it does help.
BIZ: I've read some stories about developers who've left the video game industry after working insane hours. Some of these lapsed game developers have moved on to regular software companies (not game related) and they've said it was the best decision of their lives. Do you worry about the video game industry perhaps losing too much of its workforce? Should this be a concern?
TP: I think that there is so much excitement surrounding games that we're always going to have an influx of people who are willing to contribute ideas, whether it's ideas about making workplaces better, or better games or tech... I don't think we're ever going to be in dire straits in that regard. It's also important to recognize that as developers none of us are ignoring the challenge that we face: games are becoming more complex, budgets are getting bigger, and the retail price for games is staying the same. That means you have to somehow become more efficient without burning everybody out. It's the challenge that we face every single year, and it gets tougher, but we have a lot of smart people in this industry who are constantly thinking about the problem and are coming up with new ways to deal with it. So, I don't think we're going to be looking at a wasteland in the next ten years where everybody has left the industry. [On the contrary], I think we're going to be looking at an industry that's even stronger because we've all been dealing with this problem head-on.
I also want to make a point because you bring up the word "crunch" and you bring up a specific number of hours. We definitely have our intense periods where people will occasionally work an 80-hour week, and that is – I have to say – part of every industry, when you're passionate about something. And when you do it because you love what you do and you want to make your product better, it isn't necessarily an evil thing. People will put in extra time because they love what they do, and we never want to discourage that. What we do want to discourage is bad practices, when we're doing to stupid things to cause people to work crazy hours.
BIZ: One of the reasons often cited for quality of life problems in this industry is poor management, where someone who's never really had much management experience in this industry or another industry is suddenly put in that role. Have you experienced this at Insomniac?
TP: Sure, we've absolutely made the mistake of promoting people before they're ready to go into a management position. We've learned the hard way in many cases, but it's a lesson we've taken to heart. We try to make sure now that anybody who's going into a management position first has the passion to be a manager, and secondly proves to us that they have the chops, whether they've received them here in the industry or from outside the industry. For example, our current animation director came from the movie industry, has a lot of experience and brings with him a lot of clever approaches to cinematics production that we've been able to apply here at Insomniac. As a result, he's made life better for the animators. But these days, being the size we are, which is about 160 people, we're very careful to make sure that the managers we have in place are conscientious and know what they're doing. And it's important for the industry, because I think everyone in this industry is having that realization or has had it over the last few years.
BIZ: What are your plans for Resistance? You're definitely looking to make that one of Insomniac's main franchises, right?
TP: Yeah, being number one on the PS3 means that we should have a fairly large base of gamers who would love to see more from the franchise.
BIZ: Are you disappointed at all that you sort of had to "take the beating" for being out there at launch? The sales for Resistance could have been much, much better say a year from now when the PS3 installed base is at a higher level.
TP: Obviously, there's good and bad to going out first. For us, the good was amazing exposure for the franchise. Sony really promoted it heavily, and the fact that it was attached very tightly to the hardware was awesome for all of us. And the game continues to get a lot of exposure because of the additional online content that we are putting out, with map packs and patches and new features. Furthermore, it's been doing fantastic in Europe where it's been the top selling PS3 title.
[James Stevenson, Community Relations Manager, adds] We're also seeing more and more online players and the community is doing better than ever. So it's still gaining steam. When you have a launch title, you get a huge opportunity to make a name for yourself, and I think Resistance did that.
TP: And the fact is that we've sold well over a million copies of the game and that's nothing to sneeze at for a console that's not even a year old. If you look at it compared to those titles during the first year on Xbox 360, it's pretty damn impressive. It's hard to really complain about that. Obviously anybody who's on the PS3 wishes there were more consoles out there... Whether it's the PS3, 360 or Wii, everybody wants to sell more consoles because they can sell more games. I'm not going to bitch too much about that.
BIZ: What is your take on the report card for the PS3 right now? Sony obviously wishes it could have performed better, the price has been a big impediment, and there hasn't been enough killer content like Resistance to drive the platform. So how would you sum up the state of the PS3 currently?
TP: I think the PS3 has become the whipping boy for the press, quite honestly. I think everyone just wants to fill it full of arrows because Sony's had some pretty amazing success over the years. And it's easy to overlook that it's been, I think, the fastest selling PlayStation console. I think it's human nature to want to take down the guy on top, and Sony has definitely gotten its share of... mud [laughs] ... but it's unfortunate. I wish people hadn't been so ready to criticize Sony, because we're certainly affected by that as well since Resistance was synonymous with the PS3. Obviously, Sony has come out and said that there are things they could have done better, but I could say that about any of our games too. The fact is that PS3's out there, it's sold well, and we're looking at an upcoming Christmas that should provide a lot of unique content to players, which is pretty exciting... and top among them Ratchet, of course.
BIZ: You were one of the first people to talk about the extra space of Blu-ray, since Resistance used 17GB. Is Ratchet going to take up even more space?
[James Stevenson answers] We haven't yet gotten to the point where we're going to know exactly how much space we're going to use.
BIZ: But you fully believe that Blu-ray is needed to give developers the extra space?
TP: Yes. We're talking about HD content, whether it's the cinematics or the number of animations you have in the game, or the music that's sampled at a much higher rate... it takes a lot of space. It's really helpful for us because there are a lot fewer limitations on what we can do. I definitely remember on the PS2 with DVDs, we were running out of space to get all of our languages in, all of the music in that we wanted, and all of the game content. We actually ended up having to repeat some of our musical scores simply because we had no more space. And what we're talking about now is even more languages going into these games – well upwards of 10 to 12 languages – and that's a ton of audio that has to be included, which takes up a ton of space.
BIZ: Insomniac is technically independent, but you've always been loyal to Sony. Is there any thinking of ever developing for another platform?
TP: Well, never say never. We are definitely independent. The reason we work with Sony is that we've had a great relationship with the people there and the consoles have been very successful; so it's made a lot of sense for us. When you argue that it's better to work on one console versus multiple consoles, I don't think there's a way to accurately compare the two [approaches]. If you're working with the first-party folks at a console manufacturer, whether it's Microsoft or Sony, they tend to spend a lot more on marketing. So if you do end up becoming synonymous with that console you may end up selling a lot more than if your games are spread across multiple consoles. On the other hand, some of the third-party publishers have proved that being multi-console is really great. Ubisoft is a fantastic example of that. Their games are out on every single console and they end up selling a buttload when you add them all up.
And so it just depends on what works for you as a developer. The other thing that's been helpful for us is that because we've been working on PlayStation consoles for so long, we've definitely developed a real skill working with Sony hardware. It's easier for us to develop technology right now for the PlayStation, but that doesn't preclude us moving on to another console someday down the road. Again, independence means that you have choices.
BIZ: With that in mind, do you ever wonder or daydream about the kind of game you might make for a system like the Wii?
TP: Not really. We focus first on what's going to make a great story, how the story's going to integrate with the gameplay, and what's ultimately going to be fun. The interface doesn't matter as much as the basic gameplay elements. For us, it's always been, "How can we come up with some awesome gadgets or weapons that will make this game stand out?" Whether you're using the Sixaxis or the Wii controller, I don't think it makes as much a difference as everybody thinks it does.
BIZ: Speaking of interface, since Sony settled with Immersion there's been much speculation that a new PS3 controller with rumble is being designed. Did you miss the rumble, or how would you weigh having rumble vs. motion sensing, or both if possible?
TP: They're all cool features, and whatever's there we'll take advantage of.
BIZ: Ok, well that's the safe answer. [laughs]
TP: It's the safe answer, but it's true. We don't design our games around what is available in our interface. When we have the opportunity to take advantage of something like the Sixaxis we definitely do... and there are some cool things that we're doing in Ratchet & Clank Future with the Sixaxis right now that I think players are really going to enjoy. And so, that's what's fun. But we don't lament the absence of any particular feature in the controllers; it's just not something we do.
BIZ: So story is obviously a very important aspect of development for Insomniac. Do you subscribe to the theory Warren Spector talked about at GDC that story will be the crucial element to broaden the gaming audience and drive this industry forward?
TP: We've always subscribed to the notion that story is crucial in games. Gameplay is king; don't get me wrong. Having a fun game first and foremost is paramount for us. But having a story that supports the gameplay and takes the player on a journey and ties all the pieces of the game together so it feels coherent is crucial. So we've invested a lot of time and effort into all of our stories, whether it's Resistance or Ratchet or Spyro, and that will continue to be important for us as we move forward. The good news, too, is that with the PS3 or any next-gen console, we have better tools to use to tell our stories. We have more space to store our scores and movies and the things that help tie the game together and push the player through.
BIZ: Are you interested in creating smaller downloadable titles for PlayStation Network like David Jaffe is doing, or maybe episodic games? What's the impact of online and the PSN for Insomniac?
TP: It's huge. I personally feel that downloadable content is one of those things that will change the industry more than anything has changed the industry in probably the last ten years – mostly because it does open up a lot of opportunities for those of us who have been making "really big budget games." We have a chance not only to make games that are outside our traditional fare, but we also have an opportunity to reach consumers more quickly and get their feedback very quickly. For example, if we wanted to do episodic content, we could put some stuff out relatively quickly and immediately find out what players have to say. And we're sort of doing that right now with our patches for Resistance. When we put out a feature, it goes out quickly and we have feedback immediately on whether or not it's going to work, and then we can change it. If the balance is off or people don't like what we've done, we turnaround, make the changes and release another feature. It really does help us connect more strongly with the people who play and love our games.
There are so many good things about downloadable content... I could spend an hour talking about it but I won't. It opens up plenty of opportunities not only for us as a medium size developer, but also for smaller developers who wouldn't normally be able to work on the PS3 because budgets are generally large for big games. You've got people like Thatgamecompany (Flow), which is a 5-man team, and they were able to come up with a game that is truly innovative and really makes everybody in the industry kind of rethink what interface means. And they were able to do this because of the PlayStation Network. Normally they would never be able to reach a console audience.
BIZ: Thanks for your time, Ted.
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http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=16729
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Last edited by Epix; 07-07-2007 at 12:06 AM.
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07-06-2007, 11:19 PM
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